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  1. #1

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    Rover's Run closed

    The mayor closed RR. Word is, there will be trespassing tickets for those who violate the closure.

    In related news there are some GREAT bear tracks in the sand at Buckner now that the people are staying away.

  2. #2
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    As I have said before....

    Quote Originally Posted by Nanuq
    The mayor closed RR. Word is, there will be trespassing tickets for those who violate the closure.

    In related news there are some GREAT bear tracks in the sand at Buckner now that the people are staying away.
    ....bad tragedies lead to bad laws. It was likely a pre-emtive action to discourage lawsuits. This has nothing to do with protecting the citizens of Anchorage rather to protect the city from legal action.

    This last attack has been an eye opener to me. I'm not that shocked that we have habituated grizzly bears on the hillside attacking people, but I'm completely dumb-founded by the muni's response and I've lost all respect for the mayor.

    Closing Rover's is tantamount to pissing in the ocean and expecting it to raise.

    Regards,

    EndUser
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  3. #3
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    Well said EndUser. Sh!tty response by the mayor IMO. The trail was already 'closed' -- Begich saying so means nothing to me, and I wish we'd get a real solution to this problem. But for some reason, there are those believe that FNBP is for bears rather than the people... I say we start taxing the bears via bear skins.
    waaahoooooooooooooooooo

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    Calvin : I tried Cola, but the bubbles went up my nose.

  4. #4
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    or you could maybe not

    1. go alone

    2. Go in the evening ( i know this sucks when we have to work late)

    3. slow down and take the time to read the signs thoroughly

    4. run near a salmon creek where there has been a previous mauling and 2 dangerous encounters

    5. Utilize Bear spray?

    6. Understand that we live in Alaska and bears and people are going to come into contact with sometimes awful results.


    Not downplaying the story of this aggressive bear but there were MANY MANY previous warnings that people seem to have overlooked. I still think the bear needs to to be put down though.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by EndUser
    ....bad tragedies lead to bad laws. It was likely a pre-emtive action to discourage lawsuits. This has nothing to do with protecting the citizens of Anchorage rather to protect the city from legal action.

    This last attack has been an eye opener to me. I'm not that shocked that we have habituated grizzly bears on the hillside attacking people, but I'm completely dumb-founded by the muni's response and I've lost all respect for the mayor.

    Closing Rover's is tantamount to pissing in the ocean and expecting it to raise.

    Regards,

    EndUser
    As I pointed out before -- closing a trail after a mauling is standard procedure... be it by the NPS, USFS or the muni (remember when the loop trail off the Eagle River nature Center trail was closed a couple years ago - or when the Russian was closed at nightfall 2 years ago?). Any mayor in any city would have done the same thing.

    It appears you are too dense to see that Rover's Run is a poor choice to go jogging or biking in the summer. There are too many people having encounters with bears; a natural corridor off limits to humans may reduce some of these encounters. It's a good thing... for both the bears and for the humans. So stop your libertarian whining and ride the miles and miles of trails that are open.

  6. #6
    The devil is an angel too
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillsidetracks
    As I pointed out before -- closing a trail after a mauling is standard procedure... be it by the NPS, USFS or the muni (remember when the loop trail off the Eagle River nature Center trail was closed a couple years ago - or when the Russian was closed at nightfall 2 years ago?). Any mayor in any city would have done the same thing.

    It appears you are too dense to see that Rover's Run is a poor choice to go jogging or biking in the summer. There are too many people having encounters with bears; a natural corridor off limits to humans may reduce some of these encounters. It's a good thing... for both the bears and for the humans. So stop your libertarian whining and ride the miles and miles of trails that are open.
    Rover's has been open for what? 13, 15, 20 years? How many attacks have happened on Rover's? Two? Both on the same year? Likely the same bear? So is it a bear problem or a problem bear?

    I've used Rovers a lot over the last four years. In the morning, evening, night... All summer long. Never seen a bear. Never seen a bear print. If you look at the maps printed on the ADN, the 'bear dense area" ended between the creek and the trail. That is supposed to be data from the radio collared bears. And it would make sense, as the other bank of the creek has no trails the bears will stay mostly on it. Also, since there's a "corridor" between creek and trail, the bears will stay on that corridor. Makes sense to me.

    Now, we have a sow with two cubs that took residence on an area spanning from the Hilltop Parking lot to the top of Spencer -apparently. That bear showed aggressive behavior towards humans repeatedly before any mauling occurred. No efforts were made to try to force this bear away from the area -may I mention a very popular area among bikers, runners, hikers and just people walking- but to try to remove people from the area -again, one of the most popular areas among outdoor enthusiasts. Do you see any problem here?

    All summer long we have endured not only the presence of that bear and her cubs, but a campaign convincing us that FNBP is a dangerous place due to the "bear population." As a result, the traffic on the trails has diminished, the bears become bolder... the solution is augmenting the problem. We can try to close Rovers, then what? we close Double Bubble? Close Spencers? Close the Hilltop Ski area? Close the whole town? Or do we just accept that there are bears, try to make noise and deal with individual problem bears as necessary? A temporary closure of Rovers is not a bad idea. It would help Fish and Game deal with this problem bear. A permanent closure of Rovers is a bad idea.

  7. #7

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    This is kind of like beating a dead horse but some of you just don't get it. No one is suggesting that the trail be closed permanently -- just as no one suggested the Albert Loop trail, the Turnagain trail, the Russian River or the Savage river area be closed permanently. This isn't some sort of conspiracy against mountain bikers or joggers; it's just the way things work. In short... temporarily closing a trail or area after a mauling doesn't set a precedent... it's standard procedure.

    And if you've never seen a bear or bear print on Rovers I suggest you spend a little more time studying what's around you or go with someone who can point out these signs to you.
    Last edited by hillsidetracks; 08-13-2008 at 11:08 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillsidetracks
    This is kind of like beating a dead horse but some of you just don't get it. No one is suggesting that the trail be closed permanently -- just as no one suggested the Albert Loop trail, the Turnagain trail, the Russian River or the Savage river area be closed permanently. This isn't some sort of conspiracy against mountain bikers or joggers; it's just the way things work. In short... temporarily closing a trail or area after a mauling doesn't set a precedent... it's standard procedure.
    I'm just not following you. What are you saying then? You did say that "Rover's Run is a poor choice to go jogging or biking in the summer. There are too many people having encounters with bears; a natural corridor off limits to humans may reduce some of these encounters." It sounded as if you were advocating a permanent closure. If that's not what you are advocating, I'm sorry but what's your point then? That a temporary closure of Rover's is standard procedure due to the mauling? Because I already said that it was not only standard procedure, but a good idea that should help Fish&Game deal with the bear.

    Quote Originally Posted by hillsidetracks
    And if you've never seen a bear or bear print on Rovers I suggest you spend a little more time studying what's around you or go with someone who can point out these signs to you.
    Personal attacks? Nice way to make your point. No, I've never seen a bear print. This summer I even stopped and went to the creek a week or so after the 24hr race attack -I know, how insanely irresponsible- and guess what? no prints, even with all the rain. And you totally dismissed the fact that Rover's has been around for over a decade, it is heavily used all summer long and this is the first time there has been a serious incident. But hey, lets not focus on facts, lets not try to make decisions with a cool mind lets go ahead and either close trails or kill bears in the heat of the moment. Rover's run as is already provides a buffer between trail and creek. Again, this year you have a bear with cubs that has been showing aggressive behavior all over the place. The Double Bubble charge was nowhere near Rover's, the other runner that almost got bit in the ass was nowhere near Rover's. I said it before and I'll say it again: is it a bear problem or a problem bear?

  9. #9

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    My apologies; I didn't mean to be personal. I was just pointing out that on any given summer day one can find bear signs on Rovers. Just about everyone I know who frequents FNBP has encountered bears on Rovers; if you ride it often and haven't seen a bear you are in the minority.

    In regards to closure... I was reacting to the oft repeated mantra that government is somehow restricting our rights by closing a trail. Personally I think a seasonal closure of Rover's during the peak king and silver run would benefit all. Fewer bear / human conflicts means less of a media circus and hopefully no further restrictions.

  10. #10
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    If I'm dense.....

    then you're the mayor's fluff boy.

    It's an election year, buddy. He's a popular mayor running in a very tight senate race with a tainted Uncle Ted. He has the best chance in 50 years to un-seat Ted. Do you really think the mayor is willing to do the right thing regarding problem bears in Anchorage and possibly risk public rebuke?? You, sir are a fluff boy.

    Closing the trail and sending Ricky Boy on two hour walk-abouts up and down Rovers is riding the fence ---- it's an illusion of action ---- it's doing something and not doing something at the same time. There are other, more drastic measures, that could be used to solve the problem. However, these will not happen in a politically charged Anchorage.

    This has nothing to do with public safety..... it's about lawsuits and politics.

    Besides, where have the other encounters with this so called problem bear occurred?? Hint.... not on Rover's Run. So to close a trail due to a mauling is just stupid... even if it's just "standard" operating procedure.

    To solve the problem would bring with it a lot of press.... both good and bad. This problem, by all measures, is being ignored for political reasons.

    Regards,

    EndUser
    Last edited by EndUser; 08-13-2008 at 12:44 PM.
    My advice and $3 will buy you nothing more than a tunafish sandwich

  11. #11

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    Thanks EndUser. One can always count on a hilarious response from you. I'll go back to fluffing now... You go hole up in your fort with your guns, Ron Paul, Sara Chambers and Ayn Rand novels.

  12. #12
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    This a town of 300,000.

    Quote Originally Posted by hillsidetracks
    Personally I think a seasonal closure of Rover's during the peak king and silver run would benefit all. Fewer bear / human conflicts means less of a media circus and hopefully no further restrictions.
    The urban / wilderness interface is NOT being managed well. Seasonal closures within Anchorage is a slap in the face to those of us who love this town and its trails. Trail closures are not going to solve this problem.... only an aggressive campaign to control wildlife will. It's a city..... not a wildlife refuge.

    Regards,

    EndUser
    My advice and $3 will buy you nothing more than a tunafish sandwich

  13. #13
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    You got schooled....

    Quote Originally Posted by hillsidetracks
    Thanks EndUser. One can always count on a hilarious response from you. I'll go back to fluffing now... You go hole up in your fort with your guns, Ron Paul, Sara Chambers and Ayn Rand novels.
    by Frozen K and myself.

    I don't live in a fort.

    I don't own a single gun. I however have three bikes and I commute to work on bike most days.

    What's wrong with a de-centralized government??

    What's wrong with capitalism?? Is that service industry job not paying you well??

    Edward Abby and Hunter S. Thompson are gods.

    Do you find this information useful??

    Regards,

    EndUser
    My advice and $3 will buy you nothing more than a tunafish sandwich

  14. #14

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    Many people besides yourself love this town and trails -- and most feel like minimizing bear conflicts is a good thing. Furthermore many people view living with wildlife as a issue equally as important as trails and recreation.

    If you recall Valhalla pointed out to you earlier that Rover's Run is a natural corridor for bears and limiting access for key months of the year could potentially reduce conflicts. Not being able to ride a muddy trail that has become a wildlife corridor for a few months out of the year is not a slap in the face - it's a step in the right direction to minimize conflicts and ensure a balance between recreation and wildlife. A balance that most of us treasure.

    BTW... I own guns and bikes, think Thompson was off his rocker and walk to work every day. My service industry job rocks. Don't forget to tip.
    Last edited by hillsidetracks; 08-13-2008 at 02:07 PM.

  15. #15

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    Enduser is right!

    Where do you draw the line? There are too many bears that have become dependant on our trash. It’s easy food. Now there are two cubs that are learning to live out our trash. Every year will get worse. It is Fish and Games responsibility to control wildlife. If a pit-bull was attacking and killing kids it would be put down. If a DUI driver is running over innocent people, they will be arrested.

    Maybe the Mayor should close all city roads to only drunk drivers from say midnight til 6 in the morning. That way no innocent people will be harmed. If you are caught driving sober you will be immediately arrested and fined.

    Regards

  16. #16

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    There is no evidence that the bears in question are eating trash. They're hanging out next to a salmon stream during the height of summer salmon season. There's nothing unnatural about it - it's what bears do. If there was evidence these bears attacks because they had become habituated due to trash they would have been shot long ago.

    Where do we draw the line? I think it's pretty obvious - when there is a known aggressive bear population we draw the line uphill from trails that parallel salmon streams.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillsidetracks
    There is no evidence that the bears in question are eating trash. They're hanging out next to a salmon stream during the height of summer salmon season. There's nothing unnatural about it - it's what bears do. If there was evidence these bears attacks because they had become habituated due to trash they would have been shot long ago.

    Where do we draw the line? I think it's pretty obvious - when there is a known aggressive bear population we draw the line uphill from trails that parallel salmon streams.
    Double Bubble and the top of Spencers Loop parallel salmon streams?

  18. #18

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    FrozenK said "As a result, the traffic on the trails has diminished, the bears become bolder... the solution is augmenting the problem."

    I can't agree more. I've been up there every night this week and the place is a ghost town. There's *nobody* up there, the parking lots are empty, and I'm looking around as I ride, thinking how the bears must be loving the free reign.

  19. #19
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    Earth to Hillsidetracks?

    Quote Originally Posted by hillsidetracks
    There is no evidence that the bears in question are eating trash. They're hanging out next to a salmon stream during the height of summer salmon season. There's nothing unnatural about it - it's what bears do. If there was evidence these bears attacks because they had become habituated due to trash they would have been shot long ago.

    Where do we draw the line? I think it's pretty obvious - when there is a known aggressive bear population we draw the line uphill from trails that parallel salmon streams.
    Your perception of what FNBP "IS" is totally at odds with reality. The municipal park is a recreation area…. It is not a wildlife preserve. The FNBP is surrounded on three sides by 300,000 people and to think that some of the Alaska mega fauna residing there are not becoming habituated to human activity is naive if not completely disingenuous. When the animals start to go a little nutty, it's time to clean up the park….. not restrict usage. I wasn't so sure from the first attack that there was a problem, but clearly there is a problem bear(s) on the hillside and the mayor isn't using all of his resources to take care of the problem.

    You are an apologists for a career politician who doesn't want to rock the boat during this hyper-charged election year. He doesn't care about you nor me. He can't be distracted from the possibility of huge financial gain. Instead of that bear in the crosshairs, he's looking down the barrel at Uncle Ted.

    Regards,

    EndUser
    Last edited by EndUser; 08-14-2008 at 09:21 AM.
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  20. #20

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    Politically Correct

    I was watching Channel 2 news the night that the second mauling occurred. The newscaster said to Megan something to the effect of - So Megan at 10 o’clock you are going to have more on the Bear Mauling at Bicentennial Park? Megan responded - We don’t know if it was a mauling yet but a woman was attacked by a brown bear.

    I suppose they were afraid word “mauling” would evoke too strong of an image.

  21. #21

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    Letter in today's ADN. Note the author; if there's a quintessential Alaskan explorer, it's Dick Griffith.

    Close trails near spawning salmon

    Every August Chugach State Park rangers close the 3-mile Albert Loop Trail at the Eagle River Nature Center. August is the month that the salmon arrive in the side streams to spawn. Before the closures three people were mauled by brown bears on the trail, none of them very seriously. Barricades are placed across both ends of the trail and signs say, "Violators subject to a $100 fine and criminal trespass notice." I never did approve of the closure but there have been no incidents since the trail was closed. The trail has been closed for about 10 seasons.

    It seems quite obvious that people should not run or bicycle on trails that have a history of problem brown bears, and perhaps these trails should be closed for the salmon spawning season.

    -- Dick Griffith

  22. #22
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    ok, i've lived on the kenai peninsula for 3 years, and in anchorage for another 3, and i've had more bad encounters with moose than with bears. consider this: over the last 10 years or so, in anchorage; more people have been injured or killed by moose than by bears. if you choose to use the trails on hillside, or anywhere in alaska, you need to know what to do if you encounter a bear. the most recent victim made multiple mistakes: she wasn't carrying pepper spray. recent studies in alaska showed that 98% of people using pepper spray were UNINJURED by bears in close range encounters. the same study also showed that people using guns were INJURED 50% of the time.

    her dog was unleashed. there are several cased of unleashed dogs running back to their owner with a pissed off bear in tow. some experts suggest that dogs can make bears more exciteable and curious, especially younger bears.

    SHE ran from the cubs!!! running is likely to trigger predatory instincts in the bear, making much more likely you will actually be attacked. most charges are bluffs that do not result in contact. it is vital that you stand your ground. probably easier to do if you have peppah spray. or a shotgun with slugs.

    she was alone. bears are more intimidated by larger groups of people.

    what anchorage needs is comprehensive bear management plan that includes a healthy dose of public education. maybe as part of this plan, we ought to take a close look at a program run by the windriver bear institute in montana. the founder is a long time bear biologist, and the program has been used with good results in places like glacier natl. park in montana, and in various provincial parks in alberta, canada. the program makes use of specially trained karelian bear dogs in conjunction with other non-lethal adverse conditioning tools.

  23. #23
    Wood chips are stupid
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    this thread sucks
    "Trust me,you don't want a big baby."

    JT

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