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  1. #1

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    Pugsley and 100s

    So, do the 100mm rims and Endo actually 'fit' in the rear triangle of a Pugsley frame?

    I know you have to cut the spring hanger of the brake bosses off...

    How much clearance are we actually talking about?

    Will the wheel only fit with the hub as far forward in the rear dropout as possible?

    Anyone have pics?

    M

  2. #2
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    MikeSee just sold a 16" Pugsley with 100mm rims.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by qayaq_alaska
    So, do the 100mm rims and Endo actually 'fit' in the rear triangle of a Pugsley frame?

    I know you have to cut the spring hanger of the brake bosses off...

    How much clearance are we actually talking about?

    Will the wheel only fit with the hub as far forward in the rear dropout as possible?

    Anyone have pics?

    M
    Hey Martin-

    Frame/tire clearance is not an issue. Not to say that there's gobs of clearance, but it's plenty for snow/slush. Same with the fork. Even with copious tire runout/wobble there's still ~4mm clearance per side.

    The hardest part of setting this combo up is building the wheels. Starts with redrilling the 100mm rims offset, then getting the spoke calc figured, then building a wheel that's centered in the frame. And fork. Not that big of a deal, just takes a few hours to get both wheels just right. On the Pugs I just built/sold the frame and fork were not aligned spot-on, so that when each wheel was centered in the frame and fork, switching them front to back wasn't really possible.

    Some not very helpful pics attached.

    Other points worth noting:
    -Running the ISIS 148 DH BB with some cheapo Bontrager cranks I could get 8 of 9 cogs out back without rub. In the granny ring/big cog there was chain/tire rub. Ditch one of the smaller cogs (like they get used anyway!) and space the whole cassette ~3mm outboard, adjust the limit screw, then you're set.
    -I only tried it with the wheel all the way forward in the dropouts. Can't remember seeing any issues if you ran it farther back. BTW--why would you want to run it farther back?

    Cheers,

    MC
    Attached Images Attached Images

  4. #4
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    Thanks for the info, in the middle of just such a project. Slight difference being the straight fork in instead of offset to facilitate use of a generator hub. Any input would be appreciated to save ruining another set of 100mm rims in R & D.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alhansen
    Thanks for the info, in the middle of just such a project. Slight difference being the straight fork in instead of offset to facilitate use of a generator hub. Any input would be appreciated to save ruining another set of 100mm rims in R & D.
    Haven't used a 100mm fork with a 100mm rim so I dunno if it'll fit.

    At a minimum you'll need to redrill the whole 100mm rim on-center.

    Let us know how it works out, OK?

    MC

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    Can you post a shot of chainstay- tire clearance?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pbasinger
    Can you post a shot of chainstay- tire clearance?
    I posted all the pics I have of that critter.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Haven't used a 100mm fork with a 100mm rim so I dunno if it'll fit.

    At a minimum you'll need to redrill the whole 100mm rim on-center.

    MC
    I played with this last Feb at Speedway Cycles in Anch. A 100mm rim with an Endormorph with fit inside a 100mm Pugsley fork but you mave to deflate the tire to "nudge" it past the dropouts and then re-inflate it. Plenty of clearance once it is locked in.
    Eat Food. Chop Wood. Ride Bike.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave in Driggs
    I played with this last Feb at Speedway Cycles in Anch. A 100mm rim with an Endormorph with fit inside a 100mm Pugsley fork but you mave to deflate the tire to "nudge" it past the dropouts and then re-inflate it. Plenty of clearance once it is locked in.
    Also worth mentioning is that if you're running a disc brake on a 100mm fork with a 100mm rim you'll have to remove the caliper to install/remove the wheel.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Haven't used a 100mm fork with a 100mm rim so I dunno if it'll fit.

    At a minimum you'll need to redrill the whole 100mm rim on-center.

    Let us know how it works out, OK?

    MC
    I'll post pics when I've got something that works. Thanks for all the help.

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    Can be done, Yes... But, is it nice... Nope

    Hi,

    My 2 cents, since I have both the Pug & a Fatty Back is that Yes, this is do-able, but No it is not cool...

    1) Run-out of ~3-4mm between chainstays/fork with 'sticky' snow/overflow/dog-**** is a ***** w/ Pugs and 100mm combo
    2) Tire removal buisness blows (do it enough and you'll get pissed unless you have a great deal of patience)...
    3) In the long run (5-10 yrs) you'll end up spending more $ with this idea.. Why you ask? ; (i)unless you're competent with wheel-lacing (ie. off-set space wheel drilling, ect.) you'll either pay a LBS for a 100mm offset Pug wheel build-up or you'll f(*& up some wheels trying to do it yourself, (ii) go through a bunch of steel frames (unless you live inland like Fairbanks ie. somewhere relatively dry & non-corrosive to steel frames. A place where gravel and snow rule the road-ways instead of slush brines, salt baths, and other less desirable detritus debris found within close proximity to a generally corrosive marine environment), and Finally,(iii) you'll end up just purchasing something that actually works and will have that 'gateway' bike that you could have just put into say a Fatback or something designed to accept a 100mm hoop! Unless you are lucky like Mikesee and can sell it to someone else.

    I don't mean to put a damper on the idea of a 100mm rim & a Pug combo.. Do your thing and peddle a bike and let others know of your experiences. These are just my own thoughts and experiences for what they are worth to you. I would be happy to hear of others thoughts/successes/dis-proofs, ect.

    If you really want to run 'hundees', do yourself a favor and invest in something that you'll be able to enjoy (key-word) for several years & check out:

    http://speedwaycyclesak.com/

    Happy Trails,

    -Jg

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    So those rims are 100mm, but how wide is the actual combo rim/Endo ? Any leads which straight forks (non Pugsley nor Ftaback) would work ?

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    The 100mm/Endo combo is ~108-109mm wide. Greg from Speedway has a good bunch of photos/specs if you search up the topic here using the search func.

    Good luck

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKPhatTraks
    The 100mm/Endo combo is ~108-109mm wide. Greg from Speedway has a good bunch of photos/specs if you search up the topic here using the search func.

    Good luck
    I spent like 3 hours searching and googling for that width before daring to pop the question here - thanks !

    Any ideas which forks (apart from Surly and Fatbike) would fit ? Couldn't find measurments either... some look ok with straight legs crown to bottom, but no exact data to be found for such extremes

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKPhatTraks
    Hi,
    My 2 cents, since I have both the Pug & a Fatty Back is that Yes, this is do-able, but No it is not cool...
    If you really want to run 'hundees', do yourself a favor and invest in something that you'll be able to enjoy (key-word) for several years & check out:
    http://speedwaycyclesak.com/

    Happy Trails,
    -Jg
    Hmm, I was in Speedway Cycles a few days ago and they are not really promoting the whole 100mm thing for the Fatback. Kind of the opposite of promoting. Greg showed me a 100mm rim that had only about 200 miles on it and the spoke nipples were already pulling from the rim. He showed me the 70's (if I remember correctly) on the floor-model bikes and I have to admit they are nice, lightweight, strong-looking rims. He has way more miles than I do on fat tires and a lot more experience, so I should probably just listen to all of the expert advise and give up this costly exercise. Nah.

    So since you have 100's on your Fatback, what sort of problems have you encountered and how were they overcome? Would you mind posting pics? A friend of mine is working on getting 100's onto his Fatback and I'm sure would appreciate any helpful guidance as to what has worked for you.

    When you built the 100's for your Pugsley did you use the offset fork or the the 100mm? Did you center your spokes or was it similar to mikesee's build? What is your chainstay-tire clearance?

    Mikesee, if you were to guess, how many miles do you think you put on that Pugs in the configuration shown? Any spoke-pulling-from-the-rim issues?

  16. #16

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    Where were the nipples drilled in the Rim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alhansen
    Hmm, I was in Speedway Cycles a few days ago and they are not really promoting the whole 100mm thing for the Fatback. Kind of the opposite of promoting. Greg showed me a 100mm rim that had only about 200 miles on it and the spoke nipples were already pulling from the rim. He showed me the 70's (if I remember correctly) on the floor-model bikes and I have to admit they are nice, lightweight, strong-looking rims. He has way more miles than I do on fat tires and a lot more experience, so I should probably just listen to all of the expert advise and give up this costly exercise. Nah.

    So since you have 100's on your Fatback, what sort of problems have you encountered and how were they overcome? Would you mind posting pics? A friend of mine is working on getting 100's onto his Fatback and I'm sure would appreciate any helpful guidance as to what has worked for you.

    When you built the 100's for your Pugsley did you use the offset fork or the the 100mm? Did you center your spokes or was it similar to mikesee's build? What is your chainstay-tire clearance?

    Mikesee, if you were to guess, how many miles do you think you put on that Pugs in the configuration shown? Any spoke-pulling-from-the-rim issues?
    Yeah, I also talked with Greg about that a little and I would have to say although I am not certain about it since I didn't see that particular wheel, that perhaps the placement of the drilling for the nipples may have something to do with it.. Specifically, if the wheel was off-set drilled for a pugsley frame, the stresses on that setup may not be comparable to a symmetric build like on the Fatback (uneven stress on the left and right sides of the rim due to the dish of the wheel build). It would be interesting if this wheel was not dished and used on a Fatback though .

    Also, alloy nipples are quite a bit less durable and more prone to that type of thing especially if the spokes are overtightened or un-evenly tightened which could feasibly be the case with such a wide rim profile to attempt and true .. Finally, if Peter B. rode this same setup with a total of ~220-280 lbs. (bike, himself, gear, ect.) all the way to Nome last winter (~1100 miles ) in the Iditasport without such calamities, than it is probably okay for semi-regular use and occasional abuse for more than 200 miles I would suspect.

    Thanks for the information on this however, and I'll let you know how things go with my current setup. I am 6' and about 195lbs and ride pretty aggressively so it will be good to know any potential problems before it turns into a long-long walk.. Wait, sometimes it is a long-long walk even without an un-raveling wheel. he he

    Frankly my suspicions are that there are now an over-abundance of 70mm (*new*) rims now at Speedway and a potential shrinking market/ decline in availability of the 100mm (*old*) rims... Or, that there is a secret society who really would like to keep the ultra-fatties in check

  17. #17
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    I don't know how the wheel that Greg has was built, what spokes or tension it was built with, whether it was redrilled, laced/unlaced/relaced, hucked, etc...

    So I can't comment on the failure he's having.

    I *can* tell you that the 100mm rim extrusion is varied in thickness--more material where the spoke holes are drilled, less in the center of the rim. In other words, if you redrill 'em for a Pugs, you gotta keep the new spoke holes all in (or very near to) the same plane that the original holes were drilled in. This is what I did with the two sets I built this way.

    As someone else mentioned, Pete rode his 100's to Nome last winter. He finished with disintegrating tires and worse-than-normal flatulence but no wheel issues. Likewise, I rode the 100mm rims on my AK tour last winter. I stopped short in Unalakleet after ~800 miles on the trail. That was on a ~140lb bike with a ~200lb rider piloting it. And all of that was after riding the same wheelset 1000+ miles on dirt, pavement, and snow here in CO before heading north.

    In short, I'm pretty sure the 100mm rims are capable of taking any and all kinds of abuse--snow or otherwise, regardless of rider weight. I've built about a dozen of 'em now and they are very sturdy rims that build into very, very sturdy wheels.

    I would, however, like to hear more about Greg's failing rim and the circumstances surrounding it.

    MC

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alhansen
    Hmm, I was in Speedway Cycles a few days ago and they are not really promoting the whole 100mm thing for the Fatback. Kind of the opposite of promoting. Greg showed me a 100mm rim that had only about 200 miles on it and the spoke nipples were already pulling from the rim. He showed me the 70's (if I remember correctly) on the floor-model bikes and I have to admit they are nice, lightweight, strong-looking rims. He has way more miles than I do on fat tires and a lot more experience, so I should probably just listen to all of the expert advise and give up this costly exercise. Nah.

    So since you have 100's on your Fatback, what sort of problems have you encountered and how were they overcome? Would you mind posting pics? A friend of mine is working on getting 100's onto his Fatback and I'm sure would appreciate any helpful guidance as to what has worked for you.

    When you built the 100's for your Pugsley did you use the offset fork or the the 100mm? Did you center your spokes or was it similar to mikesee's build? What is your chainstay-tire clearance?

    Mikesee, if you were to guess, how many miles do you think you put on that Pugs in the configuration shown? Any spoke-pulling-from-the-rim issues?

    This is news to me. I've had no probs with the 100s

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    I don't know how the wheel that Greg has was built, what spokes or tension it was built with, whether it was redrilled, laced/unlaced/relaced, hucked, etc...

    So I can't comment on the failure he's having.

    I *can* tell you that the 100mm rim extrusion is varied in thickness--more material where the spoke holes are drilled, less in the center of the rim. In other words, if you redrill 'em for a Pugs, you gotta keep the new spoke holes all in (or very near to) the same plane that the original holes were drilled in. This is what I did with the two sets I built this way.

    As someone else mentioned, Pete rode his 100's to Nome last winter. He finished with disintegrating tires and worse-than-normal flatulence but no wheel issues. Likewise, I rode the 100mm rims on my AK tour last winter. I stopped short in Unalakleet after ~800 miles on the trail. That was on a ~140lb bike with a ~200lb rider piloting it. And all of that was after riding the same wheelset 1000+ miles on dirt, pavement, and snow here in CO before heading north.

    In short, I'm pretty sure the 100mm rims are capable of taking any and all kinds of abuse--snow or otherwise, regardless of rider weight. I've built about a dozen of 'em now and they are very sturdy rims that build into very, very sturdy wheels.

    I would, however, like to hear more about Greg's failing rim and the circumstances surrounding it.

    MC
    Mikesee-you are right on the money. The rim is plenty strong if you leave it alone.
    Speedway Cycles owner http://fatbackbikes.com

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbasinger
    This is news to me. I've had no probs with the 100s

    I must have misunderstood.

  21. #21
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    Pimping Pugsley 100

    The 100 equipped Pugsley works great. It is amazing to roll over snow that a foot would make a deep impression in, and to be able to climb grades that before required dismount and pushing. The soft edges of narrower singletrack have less influence on steering and there seems to be much less tendency to trench or slide out in corners.
    DSCN0453.JPG
    We removed one cog as you suggested, Mikesee, and there is plenty of clearance between the tire and the chain. Ended up using the offset fork because there were some issues getting the wheel build dished enough on the 100 straight fork to accept a 100mm generator-hub, but we're not done yet; will keep you posted. Thanks for the info.
    Pugs 100.JPG
    Billy at arcticcycles.com has put a ton of effort into making it work, and should have a set or two of 100's to rent with his Pugsley's next month. Chain Reaction laced them up. The only thing I've done, really, is ride them and supply the builders with enough wine and beer to inebriate (can I use that as a verb?) a moose.
    Last edited by Alhansen; 12-31-2008 at 11:01 AM. Reason: Added pictures.

  22. #22
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    So I just got a set, and as per my normal "dog on a scent" mentality, I did more action, and less research than probably prudent.

    I laced mine up in the normal configuration, and as you can imagine, less than perfect results, and no ability to dish the wheel.

    Sounds like Mike et al, are drilling them in line, as opposed to offsetting the holes slightly? Are you all using this rim? http://www.choppersus.com/store/prod...-26-x-4-Black/

    Or a different one?

    Riding it in the fluff has been a blast, can't wait to get it dialed in

    Thanks fellas!
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  23. #23
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    They're using the 100mm Speedway rim.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmucker
    They're using the 100mm Speedway rim.
    I just spent 10 minutes trying to find a pic, or info on the rims from Speedway. I hate sites that don't make it simple. Many mentions of the rim(s), but no tech specs, pics, info etc. I saw you mention in another thread that they were similar to the ones from Choppers USA, same rim, but Speedway just has them offset drilled? Or are they somehow better?

    I'm too far down the rabbit hole to get different rims, so no big deal, just trying to edumacate meself

    Looks like I'm just drilling holes in line with the others. Sounds like a project is afoot.

    Mikesee, if you're wandering through, you mentioned that your wifes bike wasn't quite set up to your liking, anything you can share, or thoughts on perhaps drilling differently than you did? Just curious, always helps to walk in the footsteps of those who went before you
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith
    I just spent 10 minutes trying to find a pic, or info on the rims from Speedway.
    They are the 100mm Chopper rims. No difference. Greg @ Speedway orders 'em the same way you did, from the same place you did, and they arrive identical to what you have.

    Not to say that he doesn't have other rim options (50mm Uma's and 70mm singlewalls) but his 80's and 100's are from Choppers US.

    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith
    Looks like I'm just drilling holes in line with the others. Sounds like a project is afoot.
    It is, and isn't, quite that simple. Drilling them all in line with the current spoke holes makes a tremendous difference: you'll then be able to lace and tension it with proper dish. But as you'll learn the tension will come out sub-optimal--too tight on one side and too loose on the other. This is where the multi-shaped Large Marge rims really shine as they're configured to get you on-center with reasonable tensions.

    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith
    Mikesee, anything you can share, or thoughts on perhaps drilling differently than you did?
    OK. I learned that drilling in line with the existing spoke holes makes a huge difference in dish but doesn't give ideal tension. The wheel can certainly be ridden this way but long-term durability (think 5 years down the road) is probably compromised. Or you can just drill/lace it this way and plan to relace it every few years. This is probably the easiest solution.

    Greg @ Speedway (and maybe others?) learned that drilling down the centerline of the rim doesn't work long-term either, as the extrusion is varied in thickness and the centerline of the rim isn't thick enough to support the spokes. The result was cracking of the outer (inner?) rim wall as mentioned somewhere above.

    Perhaps something as simple as a washer placed between the nip and rim would be enough to alleviate/spread out the stresses on the thin walls when drilled down the center (or close to the center)?

    A good friend just drilled one of his 100mm rims to run centered with a 135 hub (in a custom fork). He more-or-less split the difference between the 'stock' drilling and on-center drilling, boring the holes ~82 mm apart, so ~40mm off the centerline of the rim. He seems confident (and I trust him here) that the extrusion is thick enough at that spot to support spoke tension.

    That should give you a head start. Let us know how it turns out.

    MC

  26. #26
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    would there be any benefit to putting a washer between nipple and rim?
    For a rock steady Gas Tank bag > the DeWidget

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  27. #27
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    More contact area for the nipple to spread it's load over.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Let us know how it turns out.
    Excellent! Thanks for the comprehensive answer.

    I decided to go with the established route,. If it sucks later, I can always get another rim. So yes, the NDS tension is not quite ideal, but acceptable. FAR better dish, as expected. Now I can ride without feeling like I'm crabbing down the trail No chain rub till granny, and 2nd from the top, pretty darn good as far as I'm concerned. It's actually dished a hair to the NDS, and it wouldn't budge any more, so it actually helped with chain clearance.

    Just got word my King shipped, so soon I'll be playing with the front, seeing if I can squeeze an overfat Endo into an SC32.... Thanks again, your knowledge is much appreciated. Now if you could just make Devin hurry up with my 'Box.....
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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    Anything I should know?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Hey Martin-

    Frame/tire clearance is not an issue. Not to say that there's gobs of clearance, but it's plenty for snow/slush. Same with the fork. Even with copious tire runout/wobble there's still ~4mm clearance per side.

    The hardest part of setting this combo up is building the wheels. Starts with redrilling the 100mm rims offset, then getting the spoke calc figured, then building a wheel that's centered in the frame. And fork. Not that big of a deal, just takes a few hours to get both wheels just right. On the Pugs I just built/sold the frame and fork were not aligned spot-on, so that when each wheel was centered in the frame and fork, switching them front to back wasn't really possible.

    Some not very helpful pics attached.

    Other points worth noting:
    -Running the ISIS 148 DH BB with some cheapo Bontrager cranks I could get 8 of 9 cogs out back without rub. In the granny ring/big cog there was chain/tire rub. Ditch one of the smaller cogs (like they get used anyway!) and space the whole cassette ~3mm outboard, adjust the limit screw, then you're set.
    -I only tried it with the wheel all the way forward in the dropouts. Can't remember seeing any issues if you ran it farther back. BTW--why would you want to run it farther back?

    Cheers,

    MC
    This bike is posted for sale on wilmington nc craigslist for 1200. They used the same pictures as you post her. Why do you think he's selling so quick? Anything I should know about the bike. Is it such a pain to get wheels on and off. Seems like it wouldn't take much to have the wheel rubbing the frame? I love this bike, I'm just a bit careful after seeing the pic here. The guy says it has 750 miles on it.
    thanks

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by raffi
    Is it such a pain to get wheels on and off. Seems like it wouldn't take much to have the wheel rubbing the frame?
    While I can't speak for Mike, I have one too. It's a pain to take the tire out if it's inflated. Flat? Not a problem at all. Is it worth it for the extra float? Yep.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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