2011-2012 Chugach State Park Winter Cycling Special Use Permits- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    2011-2012 Chugach State Park Winter Cycling Special Use Permits

    Just got the email from CSP about this years Winter Cycling Special Use Permits:

    Winter Cyclists-



    The time has come for breaking out the big tires! It is exciting to see a growing sport like this in the Anchorage Area. This season we are going to allow winter cycling on specific hillside trails. Our goal is to assess the sport’s impacts relative to other winter activities.

    We will be issuing a special use permit for cyclists on the following trails:



    · Wolverine Ski Bowl Trail

    · Lost Cabin Trail (connects with Basher Drive Trailhead)



    -See attached Map-



    This opportunity will allow access to the lower hillside trail system including the Far North Bicentennial trails. In addition, it will provide new opportunities to explore the Prospect Heights area and Basher Drive Trailhead.



    Permits must be picked up in person at Potter Ranger Station M-F 8-4:30 (closed 12-1). To expedite the permit process, please email our office at [email protected]. Please include your name, address, and phone number. Each person must pick up their own permit.



    We have been in the process of updating signs on the trail system. Please REMEMBER to stay off trails that are CLOSED to BICYCLES. It is a $100 fine for violation. Your cooperation allows us to continue studying and supporting winter cycling.



    OPEN TRAILS YEAR ROUND TO BIKING: Please explore them as well.

    - Eklutna Lakeside Trail

    - Gasline/ Powerline (including trail from Glen Alps)

    - Bird Creek Logging Roads

    - Wolverine Bowl Trail –to closure sign

    - Peters Creek Trail

    - Lower Eagle River Trail (ID9)

    - South Fork Rim, Silver Fern, White Spruce, Llama Trails

    - Indian to Girdwood Pathway (except in avalanche closures)

    - Any trail currently open to snowmobiling



    Thanks

    Chugach State Park

  2. #2
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    thanx for posting
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  3. #3
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    Any clue why the Middle Fork disappeared from the approved winter riding trail list?

  4. #4
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    Wow Ken, you're right!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stroganof View Post
    Any clue why the Middle Fork disappeared from the approved winter riding trail list?
    That's suspiciously absent. I wonder if other disgruntled anti-fatbike "users" got to the park authorities. And other than what's already open year round, did they really offer cyclists much?

    And Wolverine Bowl has been a winter riding staple for years already. Who knew we needed special permission for that?
    Last edited by EndoRando; 11-10-2011 at 08:43 PM.
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  5. #5
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    Funny

    I don't see Arctic to Indian on there either.

    I guess it's open then?
    "Having lack of self-preservation makes biking more fun."

  6. #6
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    That is seriously too bad about Middlefork!
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  7. #7
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    The vocal minority has made sure that we do not have access to any meaningful terrain other than what is legally already open to mountain biking. We've ridden Wolverine Bowl and Lost Cabin Trail for many years. If you care to comment, please direct your thoughts to: [email protected] and/or [email protected].

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    QB, am I reading the draft trail management plan right? It recommends middle fork loop opening to mt bikes permanently? What do you think the chances are this makes it through the final plan? The responses by CSP to the comments against allowing the necessary regulation changes seem to be in our favor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by owen907 View Post
    QB, am I reading the draft trail management plan right? It recommends middle fork loop opening to mt bikes permanently? What do you think the chances are this makes it through the final plan? The responses by CSP to the comments against allowing the necessary regulation changes seem to be in our favor.
    I would think that the fact that we now need a permit to ride Lost Cabin Trail which is currently shown as open to summer bike use on their bike trail map is not a good sign.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by owen907 View Post
    QB, am I reading the draft trail management plan right? It recommends middle fork loop opening to mt bikes permanently? What do you think the chances are this makes it through the final plan? The responses by CSP to the comments against allowing the necessary regulation changes seem to be in our favor.
    The CSP Trail Management Plan is fairly bike friendly. With mountain biking favorably included in the plan we might stand a better chance at getting favorable regulation changes. But that is a legislative process and whether regulations are presented for revision is up to park management and staff. Based on my observations of the planning process thus far I would venture a statement that yes, I believe that there are good possibilities for our future. However, it is stuff like the topic of this thread that shakes my confidence a bit.

  11. #11
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    The permit is free, right? Isn't this just an easy way to get an idea of the potential user base? Gives a good idea of demand/impact of one user group, helps with future planning, maintenance, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Breaking Down View Post
    The permit is free, right? Isn't this just an easy way to get an idea of the potential user base? Gives a good idea of demand/impact of one user group, helps with future planning, maintenance, etc.
    It is free but last year it let us ride a very cool trail, Middle Fork, all other trails open for summer use don't need a permit to ride. This year what they are letting us ride are sort of worthless. The Lost Cabin Trail is, according to CSP's bike trail map, open to riding in the summer so should not even need a permit. The spur down to Spencer Loop is pointless because you can't ride Spencer Loop, so that doesn't leave much. The connector between the bridge on Wolverine Bowl and Lost Cabin is nice but it's not very long and since both ends of it were open to bikes it would seem like a no brainer that it would be too.
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  13. #13
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    It's particularly sad considering it was the Middle Fork Trail that kicked off the permits to begin with. Several years ago, we got together with two Park Rangers, loaned them bikes and showed them why it should be open. Now it seems enough people *****ed about us being there that they pulled the plug. It's a damned shame they would be swayed by that. I'm sure there couldn't have been too many folks who *****ed, as I stopped and talked to many a skier who was impressed we were out there and eager to give winter cycling a try.
    The only thing we can do is to keep doing what we have, which is (generally speaking) being the nicest group out there having the most fun.
    Speedway Cycles owner http://fatbackbikes.com

  14. #14
    is buachail foighneach me
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    Or, more of us could complain to the park all winter long about not being allowed on Middle Fork than there are skiers complaining about us being there....

  15. #15
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    Perhaps a critical mass of hikers who happen to be pushing bikes as a means of carrying extra clothing, food and water is in order. Post holing on soft trail is a permissible use according to park "law." There are no regulations against bike pushing.

  16. #16
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    I got the permit last year and I will get it this year. I am pleased the park is supporting fat tire biking. They are opening trails that are closed by Alaska State Law to us! How cool is that! Its not like the park officials randomly decide to close trails. They are randomly opening them! Isn't the phrase "never sniff a gift fish" or something. Have you read the draft trails plan and followed the agency response? They are overwhelming supportive of more bikes in the park. My guess is they are bogged in the mires of state bureaucracy and are pushing it as fast as they can. The MiddleFork is a awesome trail to ride. They have been continually upgrading it so they can open it for summer biking as well. I would bet that the park got called on overriding state law by a "special use permit".

    Lurker

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Queen Bee View Post
    Perhaps a critical mass of hikers who happen to be pushing bikes as a means of carrying extra clothing, food and water is in order. Post holing on soft trail is a permissible use according to park "law." There are no regulations against bike pushing.
    or anyone interested in biking in CSP could just go down and get a permit, fat bike or not, and represent! The voice of the community simply in numbers.

    That could however go the other way too. As in they, the park, decides it would be too great an impact and as thus limits biking...

  18. #18
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    Lost Cabin

    That sounds like a cool trail. Is that connected to the Wolverine bowl trail? The trail that dumps you out on Basher?

    I don't get it. Every other place I've been to ride, the state and local agencies love biking, love letting riders make new trails, and let people ride nearly everything. How do we get to that point? I understand leaving some trails open to only hiking, but closing winter trails to winter bikes? I'm no rocket scientist, but I guess I'd have an easier time with this if I knew a REASON, they would close these trails to bikes in the winter.
    "Having lack of self-preservation makes biking more fun."

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Queen Bee View Post
    Perhaps a critical mass of hikers who happen to be pushing bikes as a means of carrying extra clothing, food and water is in order. Post holing on soft trail is a permissible use according to park "law." There are no regulations against bike pushing.
    I like the way you're thinking QB! Lets take this to the streets! Or, um.... I mean the trails. We could start our own "Occupy Middle Fork" movement.
    Joking aside, an explanation from CSP could help ease the minds of many I believe.
    c

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tankchain View Post
    I got the permit last year and I will get it this year. I am pleased the park is supporting fat tire biking. They are opening trails that are closed by Alaska State Law to us! How cool is that! Its not like the park officials randomly decide to close trails. They are randomly opening them! Isn't the phrase "never sniff a gift fish" or something. Have you read the draft trails plan and followed the agency response? They are overwhelming supportive of more bikes in the park. My guess is they are bogged in the mires of state bureaucracy and are pushing it as fast as they can. The MiddleFork is a awesome trail to ride. They have been continually upgrading it so they can open it for summer biking as well. I would bet that the park got called on overriding state law by a "special use permit".

    Lurker
    continually upgrading? I hope your not referring to the widening of the trail or the addition of all that gravel. They are ruining it in my opinion.
    litespeed's break

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfbkr50 View Post
    That sounds like a cool trail. Is that connected to the Wolverine bowl trail? The trail that dumps you out on Basher?

    I don't get it. Every other place I've been to ride, the state and local agencies love biking, love letting riders make new trails, and let people ride nearly everything. How do we get to that point? I understand leaving some trails open to only hiking, but closing winter trails to winter bikes? I'm no rocket scientist, but I guess I'd have an easier time with this if I knew a REASON, they would close these trails to bikes in the winter.
    Lost Cabin is a cool tail especially when ridden as a loop which the connector trail opened with this permit is used to get back to Wolverine Bowl trail. As far as I'm concerned the connector which is something like a quarter mile long is the only useful part of this permit.

    The part along the canyon rim is cool too. The puzzling part is that we need a permit at all. On the attached map this trail is shown as open (but not maintained) for bikes. In all the documents I've read it was open to allow bikes to get up from Basher. So if it is open already than why do we need a permit? And if we don't than the permit is for a total of way less than a mile of trail.

    http://dnr.alaska.gov/parks/units/ch...illsidebkg.pdf
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  22. #22
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    The Obvious Aside . . .

    The issue I have with the CSP permits, aside from the obvious Middle Fork issue, is how difficult they make it for anyone with a 8-5pm job to obtain the permit. Seriously, the Potter office, I can't pick up my wife or son's permits for them and they're closed from noon to one!? Do they expect people to take a vacation day just to be able to pick up these permits? Even if you're able to knock off early they beat you to it and close up shop at 4:30.

    If the park really was interested in getting an accurate picture of the level of interest in winter riding in the park they wouldn't make it so dang hard for so many park users to get the permit.

    How tough is it to accept applications by mail, or hold an after 5p permit party at one of the local shops or REI, or for that matter make the permits available at REI, I can get a permit for my truck there, why not my bike.

    Don't worry I already wrote to CSP about this and Middle Fork.

    -Bike wRider

  23. #23
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    Just sent matt wedeking and email. no point in *****ing if were not willing to make our voice heard.
    litespeed's break

  24. #24
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    wow! my post just got censored! Big brother is watching.
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  25. #25
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    Ignorance

    I'm good at that. I'm not going to stress about this permit thing. Come and catch me I guess will be my motto. Advanced apologies for giving us a bad reputation. I'm nice to everyone I see out there, and really try to mind closures, but this is crazy. We can ride across swamps in the winter. Are those open to summer biking? I'll write a note too. I was only yelled at once by an old lady and 10 off leash dogs on middle fork (3 of which attacked my dog who was also off leash.) She wanted to see my permit. Funny. She was the chugach park police for a day.
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  26. #26
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    Thinking ahead

    [QUOTE=Elfbkr50;8625120]I'm good at that. I'm not going to stress about this permit thing. Come and catch me I guess will be my motto. Advanced apologies for giving us a bad reputation. I'm nice to everyone I see out there, and really try to mind closures, but this is crazy. We can ride across swamps in the winter. Are those open to summer biking? I'll write a note too. I was only yelled at once by an old lady and 10 off leash dogs on middle fork (3 of which attacked my dog who was also off leash.) She wanted to see my permit. Funny. She was the chugach park police for a day.[/QU

    You wont be giving us a bad reputation, just maintaining it. Dont be surprised if that lady was the wife or mother of a park ranger.
    Last edited by akdeluxe; 11-13-2011 at 11:59 PM.
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  27. #27
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    Seems that a big part of the problem is that CSP is not distinguishing between summer and winter cycling? Obviously there are erosion issues in the summer on the Middlefork. In the winter I can hardly see an issue. Plus, rarely is the cycling and skiing good at the same time so user groups don't even have that much overlap. The post holes from walkers and dogs ought be a bigger complaint by the ski groups. I'm a skier and a cyclist and can't find a bit of sense in this closure. Also noticed that Blueberry, Hemlock, White Spruce, etc. are all off limits with a $200 fine? Who's enforcing this? In 10 years of hiking, skiing and cycling up there I have NEVER seen a parkie away from his/her truck.

    Good luck catching poachers –

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    Poaching

    Beware the citizen's arrest

    "Also noticed that Blueberry, Hemlock, White Spruce, etc. are all off limits with a $200 fine? Who's enforcing this? In 10 years of hiking, skiing and cycling up there I have NEVER seen a parkie away from his/her truck.

    Good luck catching poachers"

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    Poacher

    Beware the citizen's arrest.

    "Also noticed that Blueberry, Hemlock, White Spruce, etc. are all off limits with a $200 fine? Who's enforcing this? In 10 years of hiking, skiing and cycling up there I have NEVER seen a parkie away from his/her truck.

    Good luck catching poachers"

  30. #30
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    I did some research on the laws in Chugach State Park. The White Spruce is open by state law. Check 11 AAC 20.050 Alaska Administrative Code (Bicycles) . The Middle Fork unfortunately is not on that list. Glad we were able to ride it.

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    Bike wRider,

    Citizen's arrest? Really? What would that entail? Besides, I'm a friendly guy (that happens to be bald and 230 pounds) why would anyone want to hassle me except for a sip of whiskey and a chat?

    And, for the legal record… I never said I was a poacher.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by onebadcat View Post
    Seems that a big part of the problem is that CSP is not distinguishing between summer and winter cycling? Obviously there are erosion issues in the summer on the Middlefork. In the winter I can hardly see an issue. Plus, rarely is the cycling and skiing good at the same time so user groups don't even have that much overlap. The post holes from walkers and dogs ought be a bigger complaint by the ski groups. I'm a skier and a cyclist and can't find a bit of sense in this closure. Also noticed that Blueberry, Hemlock, White Spruce, etc. are all off limits with a $200 fine? Who's enforcing this? In 10 years of hiking, skiing and cycling up there I have NEVER seen a parkie away from his/her truck.

    Good luck catching poachers –
    Totally agree with you. I have been riding and skiing those very same trails since the 90's. So I figure I have amnesty. does not apply..... go ride em anyway. The skiing up there is great rightnow. Next week who knows might be great riding........

  33. #33
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    From what I've recently learned, it comes down to the way the current management plan is written. Snow biking is a "special use permit", as such if it is issued every year, for the same trails, it is no longer "special". With this the park could then have issues with the state. As far as I can tell, most folks with CSP seem to be all for biking and realize it is ZERO impact. Unfortunately, the requirements to change current policy take a great deal of time. So the short of it is to enjoy what ya got!

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by tankchain View Post
    I did some research on the laws in Chugach State Park. The White Spruce is open by state law. Check 11 AAC 20.050 Alaska Administrative Code (Bicycles) . The Middle Fork unfortunately is not on that list. Glad we were able to ride it.
    It may be right under my nose, but I can't see where 11 AAC 20.050 shows that White Spruce is open to bikes. A little help here???

  35. #35
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    11 AAC 20.050 (a) (11) the South Fork Rim Trail, the Silver Fern Trail, the White Spruce Trail, and the Llama Trail of the Hillside Trail System;
    It was just added in 2009. Make sure you look at the legis.state.ak.us site
    Some of the older "google" finds don't show the 2009 additions. You can kind of see the progression as the trails are added to the list. Pretty cool.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tankchain View Post
    11 AAC 20.050 (a) (11) the South Fork Rim Trail, the Silver Fern Trail, the White Spruce Trail, and the Llama Trail of the Hillside Trail System;
    It was just added in 2009. Make sure you look at the legis.state.ak.us site
    Some of the older "google" finds don't show the 2009 additions. You can kind of see the progression as the trails are added to the list. Pretty cool.
    Thanks. The version I was looking at from the Touch-n-go system was only showing up to the 2002 update. Learn something new every day.

  37. #37
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    I'm certainly not claiming entitlement but would like some solid reasons I can't use the specified trails for winter riding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onebadcat View Post
    I'm certainly not claiming entitlement but would like some solid reasons I can't use the specified trails for winter riding.
    That's just the point of what the park is going through now. In the past, there really was no winter riding outside of a rare occurance. They had no reason to have seasonal rules that addressed biking. Biking was essentially a summer only activity. It would be like them putting limitations on snowmachines in July, no real point. It was either open for biking year-round or closed for biking year-round. Now that winter biking has really taken off, they are trying to get the rules adjusted in recognition of that. Unfortunately, it is not a quick process. They have been using the special pass as a way to demonstrate that they can be ridden in the winter with little to no impact.

  39. #39
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    Agreed.. I think the having to pick it up requirement is a total joke and only further invalidates the process. I had to try FIVE TIMES during to get there while they were open.

    1) They sent out the email Thursday, saying come by between said hours.. then they were closed Friday.
    2) Then I tried coming by during lunch.. closed (as I recalled hours they were closed for lunch 1hr off)
    3) Got there at 4:27pm yesterday, not a car in the parking lot and the lights off.
    4) This morning was there a just a little after 8am (as the email said 8am-4:30pm); but there actual hours were 10am-12, closed for lunch for an hour, then open to ~4:30pm.
    5) Made it there at 4:15 today and got the permit.

    They stated a majority of the 23 requested permits so far had not been picked up. With the time required to drive down there and other conditions explained above that is no surprise that most have not been picked up.

    They are either taking requests via email or in person, and seem to be tracking them in an excel spreadsheet. I would have been happy to pay $5 for the free permit if I could have just completed it on an online form and print it out or even have it mailed to me.

    The positive is that I did finally get it (20+ min drive for me each way from my office), and after expressing these difficulties the Matt offered to meet me at a trailhead this Saturday with it.

    I generally agree that everyone should request one even if the permit provides little incentive of value to our winter riding experience.. even though the area for riding is minimal at best.

    Christopher

    Quote Originally Posted by Bike wRider View Post
    The issue I have with the CSP permits, aside from the obvious Middle Fork issue, is how difficult they make it for anyone with a 8-5pm job to obtain the permit. Seriously, the Potter office, I can't pick up my wife or son's permits for them and they're closed from noon to one!? Do they expect people to take a vacation day just to be able to pick up these permits? Even if you're able to knock off early they beat you to it and close up shop at 4:30.

    If the park really was interested in getting an accurate picture of the level of interest in winter riding in the park they wouldn't make it so dang hard for so many park users to get the permit.

    How tough is it to accept applications by mail, or hold an after 5p permit party at one of the local shops or REI, or for that matter make the permits available at REI, I can get a permit for my truck there, why not my bike.

    Don't worry I already wrote to CSP about this and Middle Fork.

    -Bike wRider

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