Boycott Airborne !- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
    SS Clyde 29er
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    Boycott Airborne !

    they are made by a branch of the Chinese Red Army. Vote w/ ur dollar, while its still worth something.

  2. #2
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    Right on!

    I'm with you but why stop at not buying red army products? Stop supporting the entire Chinese economy. It'll never make sense to me to give jobs to those who are ideologically our polar opposite. We comparatively rich westerners who can afford to throw large sums of money into our chosen sport are supporting near slave labor conditions in china to save a few bucks and in turn give money to a system that gives no rites to the very people who fill there bank accounts. Buy as nationalistic as you can and keep your hard earned money in your own country. You will help creat jobs for your own people who will in turn purchase products locally and expand the tax base either reducing the individual tax burden or expanding local government services. O.K. Rant over.

  3. #3
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    huh? Airborne isn't a "custom builder"

    what is this post doing here?

  4. #4
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    New question here. Communist Welders?

    Quote Originally Posted by fire horse
    they are made by a branch of the Chinese Red Army. Vote w/ ur dollar, while its still worth something.
    I didn't realize the Communist army was so far reaching.

    So you know for a fact that the factory that makes Airborne is a branch of the Chinese Army? What else does that crafty Red Army make? Any carbon fiber since most CF products are made by basically two Chinese factories. How about aluminum frames/products?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowrider
    I'm with you but why stop at not buying red army products? Stop supporting the entire Chinese economy. It'll never make sense to me to give jobs to those who are ideologically our polar opposite. We comparatively rich westerners who can afford to throw large sums of money into our chosen sport are supporting near slave labor conditions in china to save a few bucks and in turn give money to a system that gives no rites to the very people who fill there bank accounts. Buy as nationalistic as you can and keep your hard earned money in your own country. You will help creat jobs for your own people who will in turn purchase products locally and expand the tax base either reducing the individual tax burden or expanding local government services. O.K. Rant over.
    have you ever been to China?

    It is a global economy man, keep your dollars in our country doesn't really help our country over all. What is good for China is definately good for us.

    I'm pretty sure the general consensus is that the "near slave labor" working conditions you are talking about are much better than no working conditions at all. Not sure if you were aware, but there are quite a few people in China. Without jobs will come big problems.

    Plus, if Airborne or whoever is not outsourcing production to China, they will find somewhere else, or go under completely.

    If you want to argue that the only way to get high quality mechandise is to buy localy, great...I can support that. But your pseudo economic analysis just doesn't hold any water, or even remotly reflect what is going on in the world we live in today.

    ;-) Have fun! [end rant]

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambone

    It is a global economy man, keep your dollars in our country doesn't really help our country over all. What is good for China is definately good for us.
    That makes no sense whatsoever, maybe you can explain how that helps the USA?
    How is whats good for a foreign economy good for our economy?
    Do they buy as many chevy's as we buy Hondas or Suzukis?
    Last time I checked we dont have VAT, or any other import tax here in the US.
    All it does is make us more dependant upon them.
    And I seriously doubt the red army makes bicycle frames.

  7. #7
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    New rant

    Of course keeping the jobs at home makes sense. Read the paper and find out what the U.S. trade deficit with China looks like and explain again how buying American doesn't make sense. If you re read the previous rant you will notice that China was the only nation refered to, my comments were intended for the people of all nations, employ your own people first. China having the largest population on earth will be fine if there ideology is sound.

  8. #8
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    most major industrial complexes are nationalized companies belonging to one branch of the government or another, but yes, the chinese military does own companies that make their war machines as well as more commercial products for other folks. Anyone who just thinks a factory with expertise in welding aerospace grade titanium just magically springs up and starts producing bicycle frames is pretty naive. The big exotic metal bike boom with american builders in the 90s was caused by defence cutbacks and all sorts of specialized engineers and materials, not being in high demand for tanks and fighters and warships anymore.

    Because of the end of the cold war, we got aermet steel frames, boralyn metal matrix frames, beryllium and albemet frames, aluminium-lithium (which is what the secret BAM stuff marzocchi was flaunting for a couple years was) alloy for suspension forks, scandium alloy frames, etc.

    Aluminium-lithium is used in aircraft production, primarily fighter aircraft.

    Aermet 100 steel was used in landing gear for F-14s as well as armor plating for armored vehicles (among other things that needed a very hard and very strong steel with high resistance to SCC)

    Beryllium and Be alloys are commonly used in military satellites, nuclear weapons, nuclear reactors, and a few other applications where cost is not a factor so much as weight and space is.

    Scandium alloys were a russian gift to the bike industry, being the secret ingredient to keeping the guidance fins of SLBMs attached while firing a missile THRU the polar ice cap.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    most major industrial complexes are nationalized companies belonging to one branch of the government or another, but yes, the chinese military does own companies that make their war machines as well as more commercial products for other folks. Anyone who just thinks a factory with expertise in welding aerospace grade titanium just magically springs up and starts producing bicycle frames is pretty naive. The big exotic metal bike boom with american builders in the 90s was caused by defence cutbacks and all sorts of specialized engineers and materials, not being in high demand for tanks and fighters and warships anymore.
    I'm not disputing that these foreign, high-tech factories have some kind of connection to their respective governments and/or military. Look at the US. How many companies here stay afloat on government contracts?

    My point was that Fire horse's statement was a bit ridiculous. Governments will always have their hands in manufacturing. If he's against supporting Communist governments, why not point out other companies that import from China.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by od_the_roadie
    If he's against supporting Communist governments, why not point out other companies that import from China.
    Like SRAM ?

  11. #11
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    How about Toys R Us?

    If you want to impact the economy, why don't you start where it makes a difference?

    Interesting how Chinese are able to buy cars now with slave wages. Can you explain that? How is China uses more gasoline than Japan now? Must be running a lot of tanks around those slave factories, right?

    Airbornes aren't custom. Good bikes though.

    Quote Originally Posted by fire horse
    they are made by a branch of the Chinese Red Army. Vote w/ ur dollar, while its still worth something.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelbike
    If you want to impact the economy, why don't you start where it makes a difference?
    I have 2 made in the USA bikes...

    Quote Originally Posted by steelbike
    Interesting how Chinese are able to buy cars now with slave wages. Can you explain that? How is China uses more gasoline than Japan now? Must be running a lot of tanks around those slave factories, right?
    I love how people can so easily generalize an entire civilization....as if all Chinese are slaves or something...sheesh. "How is it China uses more gas then Japan?" We'll assuming that is even true...ever consider the ratio of people in China vrs. Japan? Are you talking per capita or what...

    Your vision of Tanks circling "Slave Factories" is pretty funny, and sadly ignorant. I just returned from a week in China and deffinately didn't see any tanks ready to plow over peasants...

    To end my rant, I think it's pretty funny that you suggest impacting our own economy by buying american made stuff, but then bring up gas consumption as a big problem when americans consume more gas per capita then anyone in the world....

    whatever, ignorance is bliss I guess.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebronze
    That makes no sense whatsoever, maybe you can explain how that helps the USA?
    How is whats good for a foreign economy good for our economy?
    Do they buy as many chevy's as we buy Hondas or Suzukis?
    Last time I checked we dont have VAT, or any other import tax here in the US.
    All it does is make us more dependant upon them.
    All I am saying is that our economy shares a co-dependance with the strength of their economy, we are not seperate entities or mutually exclusive. A major depression in China will strongly affect the entire Global economy. You don't think that makes any sense? Maybe its time you went back to community college and took Macro-Economics or Economic Geography 101.

  14. #14
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    The tank statement was supposed to be funny

    as well as sarcasm directed to the ridiculous starter of this thread.

    Sorry, it was not want to be taken seriously. Really though, China's increased used of gasoline is due mainly to private ownership of automobiles( not tanks). Sounds like the American way, doesn't it? I've been to China seven times and have seen no accounts of slave labor by the way.

    Anyway, there are custom made titanium bikes made in China that are sold here in the U.S. I've seen some and they don't look like they were made by someone with an AK-47 slung over his shoulder(sarcasm) i have seen Russian ti bikes though and....I won't go there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lambone
    I have 2 made in the USA bikes...



    I love how people can so easily generalize an entire civilization....as if all Chinese are slaves or something...sheesh. "How is it China uses more gas then Japan?" We'll assuming that is even true...ever consider the ratio of people in China vrs. Japan? Are you talking per capita or what...

    Your vision of Tanks circling "Slave Factories" is pretty funny, and sadly ignorant. I just returned from a week in China and deffinately didn't see any tanks ready to plow over peasants...

    To end my rant, I think it's pretty funny that you suggest impacting our own economy by buying american made stuff, but then bring up gas consumption as a big problem when americans consume more gas per capita then anyone in the world....

    whatever, ignorance is bliss I guess.

  15. #15
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    Chinese Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by steelbike
    If you want to impact the economy, why don't you start where it makes a difference?

    Interesting how Chinese are able to buy cars now with slave wages. Can you explain that? How is China uses more gasoline than Japan now? Must be running a lot of tanks around those slave factories, right?

    Airbornes aren't custom. Good bikes though.
    The Chinese that are buying cars are the elite and connected. More important than Gasoline consumption and car ownership (not my indicators of freedome) are freedome of assembly, travel, expression etc. all those things so many of us take for granted, voting for instance . If the chinese people had our rite to vote and express themselves I'm sure they would take better advantage than most of us. With such a huge population and land mass it's easy to use tons of fuel without personal transportation. I feel you take care of your frainds and neighbors first and then the rest of the world.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambone
    All I am saying is that our economy shares a co-dependance with the strength of their economy, we are not seperate entities or mutually exclusive. A major depression in China will strongly affect the entire Global economy. You don't think that makes any sense? Maybe its time you went back to community college and took Macro-Economics or Economic Geography 101.
    why would I want to do that, do you need some company ?

  17. #17
    nuwmtber
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    United States Ti?

    Wow...this thread has really diverged. Anyhow, just a little info for those of you thinking of boycotting Airborne. If you want to buy Ti, regardless of the company, you will be buying a foreign product. It will be either Russian or Chinese, most likely, as they account for the vast majority of production Ti in the world. I own two Airbornes and when I first looked into purchasing my first, I was hesitant because of the Chinese made frames. I called several Ti builders and manufacturers (most notably Sandvik where I was able to speak to a distribution manager, customer service agent, a logistics officer and two welders) and I got the same answer from all of them - Ti doesn't come from the U.S, not even Sandvik's. So whether you buy a frame that was built in the U.S. or not, the Ti didn't come from here.

    If you want to be sure to buy American, get a steel bike. Even the bikes built in SE Asia use steel originating in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by fire horse
    they are made by a branch of the Chinese Red Army. Vote w/ ur dollar, while its still worth something.

  18. #18
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    No good Missing the point!

    i think we're missing the point here. the point is ...airbornes suck. pure and simple.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuwmtber
    Wow...this thread has really diverged. Anyhow, just a little info for those of you thinking of boycotting Airborne. If you want to buy Ti, regardless of the company, you will be buying a foreign product. It will be either Russian or Chinese, most likely, as they account for the vast majority of production Ti in the world. I own two Airbornes and when I first looked into purchasing my first, I was hesitant because of the Chinese made frames. I called several Ti builders and manufacturers (most notably Sandvik where I was able to speak to a distribution manager, customer service agent, a logistics officer and two welders) and I got the same answer from all of them - Ti doesn't come from the U.S, not even Sandvik's. So whether you buy a frame that was built in the U.S. or not, the Ti didn't come from here.

    If you want to be sure to buy American, get a steel bike. Even the bikes built in SE Asia use steel originating in the U.S.
    Yup, dead on. Ti frames were crazy expensive untill the collapse of the soviet union which sits on most of the world's titanium producing regions. Once they stopped building aircraft, they started exporting it hence ti frames dropped in price (inflation adjusted of course) since the late 80's.

  20. #20
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    I think he means airborne frames suck in the sense that airborne uses some supermassive black hole material in the building, and so they have really strong gravitational fields and "suck" in the sense of sucking in matter and light.

    A friend of mine rides a Airborne 29er and she is silly-fast. And that's a silly-nice frame. Who cares where it comes from. I find it ridiculous that people will vigorously oppose buying a foreign made frame and then cover it completely in parts made overseas. Are there any bike parts made in America besides custom frames?

  21. #21
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    We the people ... Airborne Sponsors U.S. Armed Forces Cycling

    Please read the following before bad mouthing an OUTSTANDING company that cares for our OUTSTANDING service men and women!!!!

    Thanks
    Chopperguth

    U.S Armed Forces Cycling News Release

    October 24, 2003

    Airborne Sponsors U.S. Armed Forces Cycling

    U.S. Armed Forces Cycling has partnered with Airborne bikes in a deal that will put the elite team on world-class, titanium bikes for the 2004 season and will benefit all military people with a special discount program.

    In a commercial sponsorship agreement with bike manufacturer Airborne, 2004 U.S. Armed Forces Team athletes will be provided an Airborne bike. According to Armed Forces Cycling manager, Debra Ponzio, "This is a ground-breaking partnership because it doesn't just benefit our elite team but the entire military". Ponzio is referring to the arrangement with Airborne to sell bikes at a 30% discount to everyone in the active duty military, reserve and national guard.

    Airborne has a natural tie to the military. The owner of the company, Jamie Raddin, named the company in honor of his grandfather who served as a U.S. Air Force pilot in World War II. Bike models are typically named with a military theme. Raddin looks forward to working with military cyclists, "Airborne is excited to supply the Armed Forces Team with bikes. The team reflects the same type of quality and professionalism that is our trademark at Airborne."

    Airborne produces titanium road, track, time trial, cross and mountain bikes. The complete selection can be seen on their website, www.airborne.net.

    Ponzio added, "This translates into big savings for eligible customers. Owning a titanium bike is only a dream for many cyclists. The discount program with Airborne makes owning a professional-quality bicycle a reality for anyone."

    U.S. Armed Forces team leader, Coast Guard's Steve Mlujeak, took delivery of the first team bike for the September Armed Forces Team trip Europe. When asked about the bike, Steve said, "It is great to have the opportunity to race such a well crafted bike," and added, "The Torch is one of the best handling frames I have ever ridden."

    Military customers who are interested in the Airborne military discount program can check out the options and purchase items on the Airborne website at www.Airborne.net/military.asp using the discount code A710B24X2003 or call 1-888-243-8717 for more details or to place an order.

    The U.S. Armed Forces Cycling Team is made up of professional military men and women from all branches of service. Team members, all USCF Category 1 racers, compete in local, national and international races as their military schedules permit. Corporate sponsors currently include Airborne, AT&T, Verge Sport and Psycho Lube.

    No federal endorsement of sponsor(s) intended

  22. #22
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    Ti

    Quote Originally Posted by nuwmtber
    Wow...this thread has really diverged. Anyhow, just a little info for those of you thinking of boycotting Airborne. If you want to buy Ti, regardless of the company, you will be buying a foreign product. It will be either Russian or Chinese, most likely, as they account for the vast majority of production Ti in the world. I own two Airbornes and when I first looked into purchasing my first, I was hesitant because of the Chinese made frames. I called several Ti builders and manufacturers (most notably Sandvik where I was able to speak to a distribution manager, customer service agent, a logistics officer and two welders) and I got the same answer from all of them - Ti doesn't come from the U.S, not even Sandvik's. So whether you buy a frame that was built in the U.S. or not, the Ti didn't come from here.

    If you want to be sure to buy American, get a steel bike. Even the bikes built in SE Asia use steel originating in the U.S.
    Most of the US made ti is either Reynolds who is of english origin or the later is Ancotec who was a american company. Sandvic sucks!!!!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtshark
    Most of the US made ti is either Reynolds who is of english origin or the later is Ancotec who was a american company. Sandvic sucks!!!!
    Except reynolds doesn't make the alloys, they only make tubing.
    I don't post to generate business for myself or make like I'm better than sliced bread

  24. #24
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    Outstanding...

    you my boy are just the kind of outstanding idiot uncle sam is looking for lately!

    please go ahead and sign right up at your local recruiter's office and do us all a favor and join the rest of the non-thinkers that are willfully giving up their power to the owning class.

    god SAVE america!

  25. #25
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    As opposed

    Quote Originally Posted by fire horse
    you my boy are just the kind of outstanding idiot uncle sam is looking for lately!

    please go ahead and sign right up at your local recruiter's office and do us all a favor and join the rest of the non-thinkers that are willfully giving up their power to the owning class.

    god SAVE america!
    to the type of idiot who would heed the advice and credibility of a ambiguious poster on a mountain bike board on the internet making bold accusations without citing sources, right?

    Do us all a favor and head over to the politic forum so you can continue to spout off your unsubstancitated political diatribe regarding a wholesale OEM that wouldn't be part of this board.

  26. #26
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    read n kiss my ass!


    Sunday, May 30, 1999
    Build a bicycle on-screen
    Madison's Airborne Cycles offers virtual storefront
    By Rick Barrett
    Wisconsin State Journal

    In a nondescript warehouse on Madison's South Side, employees of Airborne Cycles are building custom, titanium-frame bicycles.
    The bikes are sold across the United States, Europe and Asia. But Airborne, unlike the big bicycle companies such as Trek and Cannondale, doesn't have retail stores.

    Instead, the company has modeled its approach after computer marketers Gateway and Dell - selling direct over the Internet.
    With Airborne, a buyer designs a mountain bike or a road bike from hundreds of possible configurations on the company's World Wide Web page. Then the assembled bike is shipped to the customer's door within five business days.

    Most of Airborne's customers are experienced cyclists seeking racing -type bikes.
    "These are people who don't want to cut corners. They have something very specific in mind when they order a bike," said Jamie Raddin, Airborne's owner and president.

    Airborne Cycles is only about a year old. But in June, the company with only a dozen employees will open a sales office in the Netherlands.
    This summer, Airborne plans to add 3,000 square feet to its modest production area, at 1010 Stewart St. It's also gearing up to offer an expanded line of bike accessories and clothing.

    Raddin, 29, is a former bicycle racer who qualified and competed in the 1992 U.S. Olympic Trials. He was vice president of sales and product development at Pacific Cycles, a national bicycle manufacturer based in McFarland, before starting his own business.

    Raddin has international business connections from traveling throughout Europe and Asia for previous sporting goods employers.
    He buys handmade titanium bike frames, which he designs, from the commercial division of China's aerospace program.

    Titanium frames are strong but weigh only about 3 pounds. The frames are stiff and responsive but also absorb shocks well, which is what racing cyclists like. A fully built road bike weighs only 17 pounds.
    Raddin said he turned to China because it produces aerospace-grade titanium that's of the same quality as titanium made in the United States and Europe. Each frame takes about eight days to build and goes through 120 quality control checks.

    "If I bought titanium frames from a U.S. supplier, they would be coming from one of my competitors or a company that supplies my competitors," Raddin said. "I don't want to be put in that position."
    Airborne's Web page walks a potential buyer through the steps necessary to design a bike.

    It includes 20 questions, including the type of riding someone will do, their height, weight and comfort goals.
    When customers scan the site for specific bike components: "We work with every major manufacturer, so we are able to get just about any part imaginable," Raddin said.

    The company offers component packages if someone wants them, but everything is assembled at the shop.
    "We take the sales order, we build the bike here, tune it, even test ride it before it's shipped," Raddin said. "When the customer receives the bike, all they have to do is put the front wheel on, attach and tighten the seatpost."

    Many people probably wouldn't think of buying a bicycle without riding it first. For them, Airborne offers test rides at its Madison headquarters where it has a small showroom. Some customers have flown to Madison just to test ride a bike.

    The company offers a 10-day 100 percent money-back guarantee. "If the bike doesn't fit right, we will make it right," Raddin said. "But in having sold more than 1,000 bikes, we've had fewer than 10 returns."
    Airborne' s fully built cycles range in price from approximately $1,400 to $2,850. The company claims to have cut out about 35 percent of the retail cost of a titanium bike by avoiding dealer markups and using the Chinese supplier.

    Airborne has sold bikes to customers from every state and 28 countries.
    The company is expanding its line of bike frames to include Reynolds aluminum models. It advertises in bicycle magazines and, based on the current trend, Raddin said European sales could double the company's business.

    Other companies sell bicycles, including custom models, over the Internet. Pennsylvania-based Cannondale Bicycles has a Web page where customers can design their own bike frames. By using Cannondale's Web frame designer: "you can literally attach a frame change before your eyes," said Dan Alloway, the company's vice president of sales.

    But unlike Airborne, Cannondale routes Internet sales through its dealers. You can design a bike frame on the company Web page, but you have to purchase it through a dealer.

    "That's a fundamental difference between what we do and what Airborne does," Alloway said. Cannondale, he added, isn't comfortable with company-direct sales because it strongly believes in the assistance that dealers offer. Still, Cannondale is trying to appeal to the same niche of cyclists as Airborne, Alloway said.

    "These are the people who want to stand out when they ride into a crowd of cyclists," he said. "They want to be more intimately involved with the product." Trek Bicycles, based in Waterloo, has a Web page but doesn't sell bikes over the Internet.

    Trek has 1,800 dealers in the United States alone, including company storefronts such as the ones on Madison's Isthmus and West Side.
    "We're on a different spectrum of the universe than Airborne," said Michael Mayer, Trek's marketing manager. "It doesn't mean we won't use the Internet, but we aren't going to cut out our dealers."
    Raddin said he's looking for investors to expand his business, and he's sponsoring professional bike racers in the United States and New Zealand.

    Currently, he has the New Zealand racers in his Madison shop assembling bikes while they are in training.

    Raddin is a self-described "Air Force brat" whose father and grandfather were Air Force colonels. That, and Raddin's love for flying, explain why Airborne Cycle has a World War II airplane motif that adorns the company office, Web page and catalogs. Even the company's customers are referred to as "pilots."

    Raddin said he's kept the business in Madison because it has one of the highest per capita rates of bike ownership in the United States. And, it's where his employees want to live.
    "There wouldn't be any great advantages to having the business in a bigger city," he said. "With a virtual (Internet) storefront, we could run the business form anywhere."


    Jamie Raddin, owner of Airborne Cycles in Madison, demonstrates how light a titanium bike frame is by easily tossing it in the air. Airborne road bike frames range in weight from 2.98 to 3.75 pounds depending on the frame size.






    The World Wid Web page for Airborne Cycles, www.airborne.net, features completed bicycle packages plus a Bike Wizard that allows customers to design their own bike. It walks the potential buyer through 20 different questions, including type of riding, height, weight, comfort and performance goals.






    Matt Poster, Airborne Cycles production manager, assembles a titanium Zepelin road bike. Each bike is road-tested and tuned before it's shipped to a customer. Currently, Airborne is using members of its New Zealand racing team to assemble vikes in the Madison shop. The bikes range in price from $1,400 to $2,850 depending on the components that customers choose.








    Wisconsin State Journal 1999. This article is property of Madison Newspapers and has been reprinted with their permission.

  27. #27
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    Man, you're not very smart....

    Quote Originally Posted by fire horse

    Sunday, May 30, 1999
    Build a bicycle on-screen
    Madison's Airborne Cycles offers virtual storefront
    By Rick Barrett
    Wisconsin State Journal

    In a nondescript warehouse on Madison's South Side, employees of Airborne Cycles are building custom, titanium-frame bicycles.
    The bikes are sold across the United States, Europe and Asia. But Airborne, unlike the big bicycle companies such as Trek and Cannondale, doesn't have retail stores.

    Instead, the company has modeled its approach after computer marketers Gateway and Dell - selling direct over the Internet.
    With Airborne, a buyer designs a mountain bike or a road bike from hundreds of possible configurations on the company's World Wide Web page. Then the assembled bike is shipped to the customer's door within five business days.

    Most of Airborne's customers are experienced cyclists seeking racing -type bikes.
    "These are people who don't want to cut corners. They have something very specific in mind when they order a bike," said Jamie Raddin, Airborne's owner and president.

    Airborne Cycles is only about a year old. But in June, the company with only a dozen employees will open a sales office in the Netherlands.
    This summer, Airborne plans to add 3,000 square feet to its modest production area, at 1010 Stewart St. It's also gearing up to offer an expanded line of bike accessories and clothing.

    Raddin, 29, is a former bicycle racer who qualified and competed in the 1992 U.S. Olympic Trials. He was vice president of sales and product development at Pacific Cycles, a national bicycle manufacturer based in McFarland, before starting his own business.

    Raddin has international business connections from traveling throughout Europe and Asia for previous sporting goods employers.
    He buys handmade titanium bike frames, which he designs, from the commercial division of China's aerospace program.

    Titanium frames are strong but weigh only about 3 pounds. The frames are stiff and responsive but also absorb shocks well, which is what racing cyclists like. A fully built road bike weighs only 17 pounds.
    Raddin said he turned to China because it produces aerospace-grade titanium that's of the same quality as titanium made in the United States and Europe. Each frame takes about eight days to build and goes through 120 quality control checks.

    "If I bought titanium frames from a U.S. supplier, they would be coming from one of my competitors or a company that supplies my competitors," Raddin said. "I don't want to be put in that position."
    Airborne's Web page walks a potential buyer through the steps necessary to design a bike.

    It includes 20 questions, including the type of riding someone will do, their height, weight and comfort goals.
    When customers scan the site for specific bike components: "We work with every major manufacturer, so we are able to get just about any part imaginable," Raddin said.

    The company offers component packages if someone wants them, but everything is assembled at the shop.
    "We take the sales order, we build the bike here, tune it, even test ride it before it's shipped," Raddin said. "When the customer receives the bike, all they have to do is put the front wheel on, attach and tighten the seatpost."

    Many people probably wouldn't think of buying a bicycle without riding it first. For them, Airborne offers test rides at its Madison headquarters where it has a small showroom. Some customers have flown to Madison just to test ride a bike.

    The company offers a 10-day 100 percent money-back guarantee. "If the bike doesn't fit right, we will make it right," Raddin said. "But in having sold more than 1,000 bikes, we've had fewer than 10 returns."
    Airborne' s fully built cycles range in price from approximately $1,400 to $2,850. The company claims to have cut out about 35 percent of the retail cost of a titanium bike by avoiding dealer markups and using the Chinese supplier.

    Airborne has sold bikes to customers from every state and 28 countries.
    The company is expanding its line of bike frames to include Reynolds aluminum models. It advertises in bicycle magazines and, based on the current trend, Raddin said European sales could double the company's business.

    Other companies sell bicycles, including custom models, over the Internet. Pennsylvania-based Cannondale Bicycles has a Web page where customers can design their own bike frames. By using Cannondale's Web frame designer: "you can literally attach a frame change before your eyes," said Dan Alloway, the company's vice president of sales.

    But unlike Airborne, Cannondale routes Internet sales through its dealers. You can design a bike frame on the company Web page, but you have to purchase it through a dealer.

    "That's a fundamental difference between what we do and what Airborne does," Alloway said. Cannondale, he added, isn't comfortable with company-direct sales because it strongly believes in the assistance that dealers offer. Still, Cannondale is trying to appeal to the same niche of cyclists as Airborne, Alloway said.

    "These are the people who want to stand out when they ride into a crowd of cyclists," he said. "They want to be more intimately involved with the product." Trek Bicycles, based in Waterloo, has a Web page but doesn't sell bikes over the Internet.

    Trek has 1,800 dealers in the United States alone, including company storefronts such as the ones on Madison's Isthmus and West Side.
    "We're on a different spectrum of the universe than Airborne," said Michael Mayer, Trek's marketing manager. "It doesn't mean we won't use the Internet, but we aren't going to cut out our dealers."
    Raddin said he's looking for investors to expand his business, and he's sponsoring professional bike racers in the United States and New Zealand.

    Currently, he has the New Zealand racers in his Madison shop assembling bikes while they are in training.

    Raddin is a self-described "Air Force brat" whose father and grandfather were Air Force colonels. That, and Raddin's love for flying, explain why Airborne Cycle has a World War II airplane motif that adorns the company office, Web page and catalogs. Even the company's customers are referred to as "pilots."

    Raddin said he's kept the business in Madison because it has one of the highest per capita rates of bike ownership in the United States. And, it's where his employees want to live.
    "There wouldn't be any great advantages to having the business in a bigger city," he said. "With a virtual (Internet) storefront, we could run the business form anywhere."


    Jamie Raddin, owner of Airborne Cycles in Madison, demonstrates how light a titanium bike frame is by easily tossing it in the air. Airborne road bike frames range in weight from 2.98 to 3.75 pounds depending on the frame size.






    The World Wid Web page for Airborne Cycles, www.airborne.net, features completed bicycle packages plus a Bike Wizard that allows customers to design their own bike. It walks the potential buyer through 20 different questions, including type of riding, height, weight, comfort and performance goals.






    Matt Poster, Airborne Cycles production manager, assembles a titanium Zepelin road bike. Each bike is road-tested and tuned before it's shipped to a customer. Currently, Airborne is using members of its New Zealand racing team to assemble vikes in the Madison shop. The bikes range in price from $1,400 to $2,850 depending on the components that customers choose.








    Wisconsin State Journal 1999. This article is property of Madison Newspapers and has been reprinted with their permission.
    I would re-read the article you posted. I would read it very carefully for context and for content. I'll give you a little hint: Airborne is not a custom bike builder. Their business experience is in a much different market than custom building. Here's another hint: Read paragraph #5 VERY closely for some insight in to how the owner of Airborne approaches his business. Read slowly and sound it all out to help ensure you understand what you're reading.

    Nighty night, dolt.

  28. #28
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    Smile i made my point dimwit.

    stick to the issue.

  29. #29
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    Boycot China? Like we did Japan?

    Quote Originally Posted by fire horse
    they are made by a branch of the Chinese Red Army. Vote w/ ur dollar, while its still worth something.
    Embrace the new world trade order, we are capitalists after all and China is going to be a giant piece of the trade puzzle.

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    A Hat Would Cover That Up....

    Quote Originally Posted by fire horse
    stick to the issue.
    The point you're expousing, that it.

    Let me try and help you out, here.

    1. You're posting about Airborne bikes and boycott's in the wrong forum. Given the obvious political overtones and suggestions, this post belongs in the political forum.

    2. Airborne is not a custom fabricator. They are a low end Ti internet based importer. Again, you posted in the wrong forum.

    3. You seem to be very closed minded on the economic impacts of China's economy. Suggesting that we boycott an importer of finished metal goods based on the fact that said goods come from China is naive and certainly ill-informed.

    You realize of course that the largest customer of raw US steel is in fact China, right? You also realize that the largest importer of finished Chinese metal products is in fact, the United States, right? Do you own a car? Finished metal components on that car come from China. Do you own a TV? Again, finished metal components in your TV come from China? Do you own a Surly? Guess where they're manufactured, numbnuts? That's right, in good ol' Red China! Any SRAM components on your bike? You're a commie supporter.

    Your childish and ignorant rant about boycotting Airborne because their products are imported from China show a clear lack of understanding regarding world economics. I'm not talking about a detailed understanding based on global market indicators, I'm talking about a concept that any junior high school student would grasp: You can't see the forest because there's own Airborne tree blocking your view.

    You want to rage against China's economic clout and it's affect on the United States? Fine, but do so where it makes a difference. How about starting with the Automobile industry? Once you get people convinced to boycott Ford, GM and Chrystler you could turn your focus to home electronics. You know, computers and stuff. How about the sinks and bathtubs from which yo draw water and bathe? Yep, you better stop using them too. Start eating off the floor with yor hands because dishes and silverware comes from China. In fact, there is almost nothing that we as consumers use on a daily basis that doesn't come from of have components manufacturer in China.

    Grow up.

    Ken
    Last edited by Ken in KC; 11-03-2004 at 08:10 AM.

  31. #31
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    [QUOTE=Ken in KC]The point you're expousing, that it.


    1. You're posting about Airborne bikes and boycott's in the wrong forum. Given the obvious political overtones and suggestions, this post belongs in the political forum.

    *(consumption choices are political, many of us base our consumption patterns on where and whom it impacts the most vs being a mindless Wal-Mart type shopper: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...36389#poststop

    2. Airborne is not a custom fabricator. They are a low end Ti internet based importer. Again, you posted in the wrong forum.

    *READ...THIS IS THE Custom Builders and OTHER MANUFACTURERS forum ..********

    3. You seem to be very closed minded on the economic impacts of China's economy. Suggesting that we boycott an importer of finished metal goods based on the fact that said goods come from China is naive and certainly ill-informed.

    You realize of course that the largest customer of raw US steel is in fact China, right? You also realize that the largest importer of finished Chinese metal products is in fact, the United States, right? Do you own a car? Finished metal components on that car come from China. Do you own a TV? Again, finished metal components in your TV come from China? Do you own a Surly? Guess where they're manufactured, numbnuts? That's right, in good ol' Red China! Any SRAM components on your bike? You're a commie supporter.

    Your childish and ignorant rant about boycotting Airborne because their products are imported from China show a clear lack of understanding regarding world economics. I'm not talking about a detailed understanding based on global market indicators, I'm talking about a concept that any junior high school student would grasp: You can't see the forest because there's own Airborne tree blocking your view.

    You want to rage against China's economic clout and it's affect on the United States? Fine, but do so where it makes a difference. How about starting with the Automobile industry? Once you get people convinced to boycott Ford, GM and Chrystler you could turn your focus to home electronics. You know, computers and stuff. How about the sinks and bathtubs from which yo draw water and bathe? Yep, you better stop using them too. Start eating off the floor with yor hands because dishes and silverware comes from China. In fact, there is almost nothing that we as consumers use on a daily basis that doesn't come from of have components manufacturer in China.

    *(consumption choices are political, many of us base our consumption patterns on where and whom it impacts the most vs being a mindless Wal-Mart type shopper: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...36389#poststop, you are especially making a lot of assumptions about my buying patterns, and by the way look at my profile...I'm a single speeder ********, to hell w SRAM!)

    Grow up.
    *READ N THINK vs spouting

  32. #32
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    Read slower....

    [QUOTE=fire horse]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken in KC
    The point you're expousing, that it.

    *(consumption choices are political, many of us base our consumption patterns on where and whom it impacts the most vs being a mindless Wal-Mart type shopper: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...36389#poststop



    *READ...THIS IS THE Custom Builders and OTHER MANUFACTURERS forum ..********

    3. You seem to be very closed minded on the economic impacts of China's economy. Suggesting that we boycott an importer of finished metal goods based on the fact that said goods come from China is naive and certainly ill-informed.

    You realize of course that the largest customer of raw US steel is in fact China, right? You also realize that the largest importer of finished Chinese metal products is in fact, the United States, right? Do you own a car? Finished metal components on that car come from China. Do you own a TV? Again, finished metal components in your TV come from China? Do you own a Surly? Guess where they're manufactured, numbnuts? That's right, in good ol' Red China! Any SRAM components on your bike? You're a commie supporter.

    Your childish and ignorant rant about boycotting Airborne because their products are imported from China show a clear lack of understanding regarding world economics. I'm not talking about a detailed understanding based on global market indicators, I'm talking about a concept that any junior high school student would grasp: You can't see the forest because there's own Airborne tree blocking your view.

    You want to rage against China's economic clout and it's affect on the United States? Fine, but do so where it makes a difference. How about starting with the Automobile industry? Once you get people convinced to boycott Ford, GM and Chrystler you could turn your focus to home electronics. You know, computers and stuff. How about the sinks and bathtubs from which yo draw water and bathe? Yep, you better stop using them too. Start eating off the floor with yor hands because dishes and silverware comes from China. In fact, there is almost nothing that we as consumers use on a daily basis that doesn't come from of have components manufacturer in China.

    *(consumption choices are political, many of us base our consumption patterns on where and whom it impacts the most vs being a mindless Wal-Mart type shopper: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...36389#poststop, you are especially making a lot of assumptions about my buying patterns, and by the way look at my profile...I'm a single speeder ********, to hell w SRAM!)

    Grow up.
    *READ N THINK vs spouting
    So you don't have any metal or plastic products in your house? You don't use a computer? You're raging against a machine with the products born from that machine. The word you're searching for is hypocracy.

    Wow! You're a singlespeeder? You're so cool. You don't have any metal products on that bike, do you? Avid brakes? Spot Rings? Surly hubs? An EBB? Again, get rid of all your chinese products and then complain about Airborne. Where do you think the metal in your spokes comes from? Unless of course you have an all Shimano spec'd bike.... I wonder where their manufacturing centers are located..... humm.....

    "READ...THIS IS THE Custom Builders and OTHER MANUFACTURERS forum"

    Right you are. SO you can read, but you can't glean context from whast you've read. You're oh so close to getting the point. Keep trying.

    You don't shop at Walmart. Goody for you. You're special and all that. What does Walmart have to do with Airborne being manufactured in China? Oh wait, I see.... there is a clear nexus between the two because it points to our short sighted focus on lowest cost and cheapest cost of goods sold at the long term expense of the American economy, right?

  33. #33
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    see..READING IS F-U-N-D-I-M-E-N-T-A-L...

    I'm not claiming to be an absolutist, a luddite, or have black n white vision.

    My point is simply to TRY and lean as much as you can toward the more politically, socially, environmentally, or consciously correct decisions when making consumer choices because they do effect others and in turn ourselves.

  34. #34
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    No, that's not your point....

    Quote Originally Posted by fire horse
    I'm not claiming to be an absolutist, a luddite, or have black n white vision.

    My point is simply to TRY and lean as much as you can toward the more politically, socially, environmentally, or consciously correct decisions when making consumer choices because they do effect others and in turn ourselves.
    Your point was that you wanted people viewing this forum to boycott a specific frame importer because they purchased their products from China.

    Granted it was a half hearted point designed to provide you with a platform on which you could stand in order to announce your political views, but that was in fact, the point of your original post.

    You went on to blather about China's economic might without any consideration for reason or logic. You consistently ignored counter points that highlighted your double standards and simplistic reasoning.

    You then tried to change your point from boycotting Airborne to one of asking for some sort of social or national concious when making purchasing decisions. Which ties back in to nationalism and politics.

    My original point still stands: Your ignorant ranting belongs on the Political Board and not here. Regardless of how you try and justify your post, it is very much your political opinion and belongs by definition, on the Political Board and not on the Custom Frame Builders Board.

  35. #35
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    dude, how THICK are u? if u READ n THINK even u can connect it all!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken in KC
    Your point was that you wanted people viewing this forum to boycott a specific frame importer because they purchased their products from THE CHINESE ARMY DUMB AZZ, btw Taiwan does not recognize itself as part of mainland China, do not pass go, get back on the short bus back to class, your makin the rest of us americans look ignorant China.

    Granted it was a half hearted point designed to provide you with a platform on which you could stand in order to announce your political views AND CONSUMER, IE VOTE W UR DOLLAR DIM WHIT, I knowww...its a new concept u cant quite wrap ur brain around. here i'll spoon feed it to you..if you are against socialism, are you going to buy products from Cuba? give it time, let it ferment., but that was in fact, the point of your original post.

    You went on to blather about China's economic might without any consideration for reason or logic. You consistently ignored counter points that highlighted your double standards and simplistic reasoning. dude, you were making false assumptions about me, u didnt read the string i included so now go read the paper and take an economics class dumbshite, i explained this one if u READ. some words to go look up: NAFTA, fair trade, globalism, imperialism, marginalization, ethics, sweat shops. if you say them slowwwly you'll b able to pronounce them.

    You then tried to change your point from boycotting Airborne to one of asking for some sort of social or national concious when making purchasing decisions YEA SIMPLE, ITS CALLED ...BOYCOTTING a product based on ethics!!!. Which ties back in to nationalism and politics.

    My original point still stands: Your ignorant ranting belongs on the Political Board and not here. Regardless of how you try and justify your post, it is very much your political opinion and belongs by definition, on the Political Board and not on the Custom Frame & Other Manufacturers , like i said....ur realll slow! Builders Board.
    THIS GUY IS AN EXAMPLE OF WHY EVOLUTION AND CONSCIOUSNESS IS SUCH A STRUGGLE

  36. #36
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    Ken, he doesn't even know what a custom builder is. He thinks it's someone who assembles parts off the shelf. It's like a caveman just pointed at you and told you you're stupid. I bet you'll be down at Westport tonight crying in your beer. FireHorse, you're a pseudointellectual moron. Why not just leave off? Ken has schooled you, repeatedly, and you're too ignorant to even realize it. I just looked at your profile, I thought you were about 15. Grow up.

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    Wow, I'm underwhelmed...

    Your point was that you wanted people viewing this forum to boycott a specific frame importer because they purchased their products from THE CHINESE ARMY DUMB AZZ, btw Taiwan does not recognize itself as part of mainland China, do not pass go, get back on the short bus back to class, your makin the rest of us americans look ignorant China.

    Granted it was a half hearted point designed to provide you with a platform on which you could stand in order to announce your political views AND CONSUMER, IE VOTE W UR DOLLAR DIM WHIT, I knowww...its a new concept u cant quite wrap ur brain around. here i'll spoon feed it to you..if you are against socialism, are you going to buy products from Cuba? give it time, let it ferment., but that was in fact, the point of your original post.

    You went on to blather about China's economic might without any consideration for reason or logic. You consistently ignored counter points that highlighted your double standards and simplistic reasoning. dude, you were making false assumptions about me, u didnt read the string i included so now go read the paper and take an economics class dumbshite, i explained this one if u READ. some words to go look up: NAFTA, fair trade, globalism, imperialism, marginalization, ethics, sweat shops. if you say them slowwwly you'll b able to pronounce them.

    You then tried to change your point from boycotting Airborne to one of asking for some sort of social or national concious when making purchasing decisions YEA SIMPLE, ITS CALLED ...BOYCOTTING a product based on ethics!!!. Which ties back in to nationalism and politics.

    My original point still stands: Your ignorant ranting belongs on the Political Board and not here. Regardless of how you try and justify your post, it is very much your political opinion and belongs by definition, on the Political Board and not on the Custom Frame & Other Manufacturers , like i said....ur realll slow! Builders Board.


    THIS GUY IS AN EXAMPLE OF WHY EVOLUTION AND CONSCIOUSNESS IS SUCH A STRUGGLE

    A couple of thoughts, my emotional pal: Airborne are not custom builders and they are not manufacturers. They are importers and they assemble products. They import goods and assemble them here in the US.

    Again, since you did get it the first time: This forum is set up to discuss sweet custom bikes, not politics. There is a whole BB set up where you can expouse all the idiotic views you like.

    Now, respond back on your computer assembled with parts from China. Take a firm stand on your principals so long as you get to select which ones you want to ignore.

    Ken

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    Dayam....

    yinz are gettin' nasty. i really like my airborne b-29. best dang customer service ive seen in a long while. (over 15 years in the industry). tried to buy a couple of american ti frames, but those american guys weren't much on answering emails, or phone calls, so i bought what i could get and afford. glad i did, too. quality is much better than the other american ti bikes ive owned in the past. plus jay in ohio, who hooked me up with mine still has his job cause of people like me. plus the shop in wv who sold me the bike is still there cause people like me buy bikes and parts for them, plus it kept some peski commie red army bast*rd from makin' a bomb while he was busy making my awsome bike. and not to belittle anyone, but airborne does make custome frames, in fact several of their production frames are actually production customs, like a litespeed or a dean, in that you have to order it and some red army gunslinger welds it up for you instead of killing whitey, and....you can even order custom geometry from airborne, so the DO belong on this board. gotta go digest my chinese buffet dinner. by all.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebronze
    That makes no sense whatsoever, maybe you can explain how that helps the USA?
    How is whats good for a foreign economy good for our economy?
    Do they buy as many chevy's as we buy Hondas or Suzukis?
    Last time I checked we dont have VAT, or any other import tax here in the US.
    All it does is make us more dependant upon them.
    And I seriously doubt the red army makes bicycle frames.
    honda and suzuki are japanese...
    People who really know what happened aren't talking. And the people who don't have a clue, you can't shut them up.
    Tom Waits

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    ahhh another idiot...

    Quote Originally Posted by mward
    Ken, he doesn't even know what a custom builder is. He thinks it's someone who assembles parts off the shelf. -Again for you slow folks this is the...Custom Builders & OTHER MANUFACTURERS thread.


    It's like a caveman just pointed at you and told you you're stupid. I bet you'll be down at Westport tonight crying in your beer. FireHorse, you're a pseudointellectual moron. Why not just leave off? Ken has schooled you, repeatedly, and you're too ignorant to even realize it. I just looked at your profile, I thought you were about 15. Grow up.
    -If you are taking yourself seriously concerning your recreational activity...GET A LIFE!

    you all are just too much fun!

  41. #41
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    ken you are slowly getting ther buddy...

    A couple of thoughts, my emotional pal: Airborne are not custom builders and they are not manufacturers. They are importers and they assemble products. They import goods and assemble them here in the US. LOOK AT THE THREADS, THERE ISINT AN ASSEMBLERS THREAD (AGAIN READ BUDDY) THUS NEXT BEST THING...MANUFACTURERS...STICK W ME..THEY HAVE MANY OTHER BRAND NAMES LISTED, SOME OF WHICH ARE "ASSEMBLERS" AS WELL.. AIRBORNE ISINT ONE OF THEM, THUS WE ARE HERE...CUSTOM BUILDERS & OTHER MANUFACTURERS...AGAIN...SPOON FEEDING SEEMS TO WORK BEST W U.

    Again, since you did get it the first time: This forum is set up to discuss sweet custom bikes, not politics. AGAIN, CONSUMER PURCHASES ARE WITHIN THE REALM OF POLITICS, YOU SEE WE HAVE THIS THING CALLED AN ECONOMY AND ITS FUELED BY MONEY AND MONEY OFTEN DETERMINES POLICY, POLICY IS WHITHIN THE REALM OF....STICK W ME...POLITICS! There is a whole BB set up where you can expouse all the idiotic views you like. YOU SIMPLY DIDNT LIKE WHAT I HAD TO SAY BECAUSE IT HIT A NERVE
    Now, respond back on your computer assembled with parts from China. AHH...NOW THIS IS A COMPUTER THREAD? STICK TO BICYCLES...FOCUS..FOCUS! Take a firm stand on your principals so long as you get to select which ones you want to ignore. LIKE I SAID EARLER...INFORMED CHOICES...AND YOU ARE FALSY ASSUMING AGAIN...MAYBE I PURCHASED MY COMPUTER 2ND HAND THUS RECYCLING AND NOT SENDIN $$$ TO CHINA...THINK GRASSHOPPER...THINK!

    Ken[/QUOTE]

  42. #42
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    Boycott

    I see no problem with voicing such opinions here because this is the only location Airborn is discussed on MTBR, the big problem I see with this discussion is the grade school name calling and the lack of respect givin the opinion of others.

  43. #43
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    Humm....

    Quote Originally Posted by fire horse
    A couple of thoughts, my emotional pal: Airborne are not custom builders and they are not manufacturers. They are importers and they assemble products. They import goods and assemble them here in the US. LOOK AT THE THREADS, THERE ISINT AN ASSEMBLERS THREAD (AGAIN READ BUDDY) THUS NEXT BEST THING...MANUFACTURERS...STICK W ME..THEY HAVE MANY OTHER BRAND NAMES LISTED, SOME OF WHICH ARE "ASSEMBLERS" AS WELL.. AIRBORNE ISINT ONE OF THEM, THUS WE ARE HERE...CUSTOM BUILDERS & OTHER MANUFACTURERS...AGAIN...SPOON FEEDING SEEMS TO WORK BEST W U.

    Again, since you did get it the first time: This forum is set up to discuss sweet custom bikes, not politics. AGAIN, CONSUMER PURCHASES ARE WITHIN THE REALM OF POLITICS, YOU SEE WE HAVE THIS THING CALLED AN ECONOMY AND ITS FUELED BY MONEY AND MONEY OFTEN DETERMINES POLICY, POLICY IS WHITHIN THE REALM OF....STICK W ME...POLITICS! There is a whole BB set up where you can expouse all the idiotic views you like. YOU SIMPLY DIDNT LIKE WHAT I HAD TO SAY BECAUSE IT HIT A NERVE
    Now, respond back on your computer assembled with parts from China. AHH...NOW THIS IS A COMPUTER THREAD? STICK TO BICYCLES...FOCUS..FOCUS! Take a firm stand on your principals so long as you get to select which ones you want to ignore. LIKE I SAID EARLER...INFORMED CHOICES...AND YOU ARE FALSY ASSUMING AGAIN...MAYBE I PURCHASED MY COMPUTER 2ND HAND THUS RECYCLING AND NOT SENDIN $$$ TO CHINA...THINK GRASSHOPPER...THINK!

    Ken
    [/QUOTE]

    Since Airborn is neither a custom builder nor a manufacturer, I can see why your original post would fit here. Makes perfect sense now.

    You're quite right regarding your thoughts about economics and politics which again now makes it clear why you're posting here instead of posting on the political board.

    Again, you're quite correct that we're not discussing computers, we're discussing politics as you pointed out. We're also discussing our philosophical approaches toward our purchases and where we choose to spend our money. Again, you're quite right that this board isn't for computers but it isn't for politics or importers either. So you'll have to bear with me because I'm simply trying to determine how firm you are in youur convictions to boycott Chinese products, like computers or electronic equipment.

    Ah, perhaps you did purchase your computer second hand. That's not called recycling, that called purchasing a used computer. Regardless though, you're tied in to the WWW through electronic equipment that was manufactured in China. Since you're so outraged at Airborne for importing their frames from China and asking people to boycott them, I can only assume that you're standing up for your principals and beliefs and exercising your economic right to boycott Chinese products. Either you believe this or you don't, I could care less either way. If you don't feel this way, then you're a troll. If you do feel this way, then you're a hypocrit and a troll.

  44. #44
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    you almost connected all the dots, like i said...

    it all comes down to u not liking what i said because it hit a nerve, maybe even a cerebral synapse or two (that means thought). again you are trying to be absolutist, see my previous reply about, again...conscious choices, not absolute ones, leaning toward what is better...ponder...ponder...

  45. #45
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    hmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by olds_cool
    yinz are gettin' nasty. i really like my airborne b-29. best dang customer service ive seen in a long while. (over 15 years in the industry). tried to buy a couple of american ti frames, but those american guys weren't much on answering emails, or phone calls, so i bought what i could get and afford.
    yeaa it is the free market, cust svs goes a long way

    glad i did, too. quality is much better than the other american ti bikes ive owned in the past. plus jay in ohio, who hooked me up with mine still has his job cause of people like me. plus the shop in wv who sold me the bike is still there cause people like me buy bikes and parts for them
    wouldn't it be better if all the many more folks involved in designing, fabricating, and distributing it were americans as well ?

    , plus it kept some peski commie red army bast*rd from makin' a bomb while he was busy making my awsome bike.
    a lot of folks argue that all of the cheap chinese products flooding our market are fueling an arms build up

    and not to belittle anyone, but airborne does make custome frames, in fact several of their production frames are actually production customs, like a litespeed or a dean, in that you have to order it and some red army gunslinger welds it up for you instead of killing whitey,
    we will just have to see how that plays out, remember tibet, and now taiwan is being threatened

    and....you can even order custom geometry from airborne, so the DO belong on this board. gotta go digest my chinese buffet dinner. by all.
    thanks for the reply

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    Hey..thanks for not attacking me..;-)

    i think the designing and most of the distribution is done by americans (not counting the shipping accross the pond) and is every bit as an american of a company as most. like specialized, diamond back, salsa, some of trek, etc. much of the end user's dollar goes into the support of americans. (airborne company, itself) as for supporting china's war machine? you may be right, but i don't think they will pull that battle on us, cause we are too intertwined economically. if that happened both countries would collapse, economically. They can't support their population with out us, and we can't, anymore, support our economy without them. and supporting many american business, sends money toward people supporting the invasion of iraq, as several bike builders do defense contract work as well.(i believe ellsworth had an ad about doing defense contract work, not too long ago) many more came from defense work too. if you are for the war that's a non-issue, but if you are against the war or from another country who is opposed to the war, than that may bring up the same issue as your complaint against airborne. too much to even worry about in my book. BTW, i try not to support wal-mart, too, but if you do some research, there are things you can buy from wal-mart that they sell below their cost as a loss leader, so if you only buy those items, than you are waging a gorilla war against them. later.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire horse
    My point is simply to TRY and lean as much as you can toward the more politically, socially, environmentally, or consciously correct decisions when making consumer choices because they do effect others and in turn ourselves.
    Per your own statement, this is a political discussion discussion. Take it to the political board where it belongs. BTW, you won't accept it, but you really have no understanding of macro economics. You are running your mouth about subjects that your brain does not comprehend. Now go away.
    Riding slowly since 1977.

  48. #48
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    read, think, learn...

    umm...read what i wrote in its entirety, readddd...comprehend...then express...okayyy?

    look if you are on the short bus as well, there is a little fodder for you to feed on, remember dont choke on the big words or thoughts.

    http://www.workplacefairness.org/sc/jobs.php
    http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit...03074937/print

    http://www.boycottmadeinchina.org/en/why_boycott/qa/
    http://www.webcom.com/hrin/magazine/oct96/china.html

    http://www.buyhard.fsnet.co.uk/workers_rights.htm
    http://www.sweatshopwatch.org/swatch...02/index1.html

    Seen from the changes in the world situation and the United States' hegemonic strategy for creating monopolarity, war is inevitable...We cannot avoid it. The issue is that the Chinese armed forces must control the initiative in this war....We must be prepared to fight for one year, two years, three years or even longer." Chi Haotian, Chinese Defense Minister, Cheng Ming, Hong Kong's newspaper, January 11, 2000

    From the Mindszenty Report - August 1997

    The China lobby is among the most sophisticated in Washington. Those who help advance China's interest include former Secretaries of State Henry Kissinger, George Schultz, Alexander Haig, Lawrence Eagleburger and Cyrus Vance -- each of whom has earned tens of thousands of dollars from U.S. businesses doing business in China.

    For the record, The Knight-Ridder newspaper chain's Washington bureau -- with information provided by the Federal Elections Commission -- provides the following which it calls: "The China Lobby in the U.S.":

    "Firms belonging to the U.S.-China Business Council contributed more than $55 million to political campaigns in 1995 and 1996, making them an important lobby for favorable U.S. policies toward China."

    Top five overall contributors were: Phillip Morris, AT&T, Federal Express, BellSouth and Atlantic Richfield. And breaking it down to specific business categories: Communications -- GTE, AT&T, Ameritech, BellSouth, SBC Comm., Inc.; Aerospace -- Lockheed Martin, Textron, Inc., Northrop Grum., United Tech., Boeing Co.; Food/beverage -- Jos. E. Seagram, Coca-Cola Co., PepsiCo, Inc., McDonald's, Anheuser-Busch; Energy -- Atlantic Richfield, Chevron, Tenneco, Inc., Exxon Corp., Amoco Corp.; Pharmaceuticals -- Eli Lilly & Co., Pfizer, Inc., Bristol-Myers Sq., Abbott Labs., Amgen, Inc.; Banking/financial services -- Arthur Andersen, Morgan Stanley, Price Waterhouse, Coopers Lybrand, American Express; Consumer Goods -- Windmere Corp., Limited, Inc., Amway Corp., Procter & Gamble, General Electric.

    In addition to the big money, U.S.-China Business Council, a whole web of interconnected and funded coalitions also played a role in lobbying Congress on behalf of Beijing. Such as: the Emergency Committee for American Trade, the U.S.-China Education Fund and the Business Coalition for U.S.-China Trade.

    One of their standard arguments, of course, is "free trade is good for both U.S. and China" which sounds logical. In fact, however, Communist China does not allow foreign-owned industry to sell goods to the Chinese people. Beijing imports raw materials only to manufacture goods for re-export -- to the United States and other free world countries.

    As The New York Times noted (June 25, 1997): "lobbying effort operated on the retail level too. One retailer warned that 'Tickle Me Elmo' dolls would soar in price if higher tariffs were imposed on Chinese goods." This caused at least one Administration advisor to cringe: "it makes it sound like we should decide China policy at Toys 'R' Us."

    Nonetheless, as U.S.-China trade expert Harry Wu, a former prisoner in the Chinese gulag, notes: retail clothing with Arnold Palmer, Playboy and Garfield labels are typical of some of the merchandise coming to the U.S. from China produced in a prison in Guangdong Province. Other slave labor products, he adds, are sold by such companies as Officemate and Chrysler, which has its own joint-venture project the Beijing Jeep Corp./Beijing Auto Works. Kmart Co., with headquarters in Troy, MI, says Wu, sells a variety of toys and other merchandise made in slave labor prisons operated by China's army.

    "In America," writes A.M. Rosenthal -- former editor of The New York Times -- "the China trade lobby was Beijing's instrument of pressure, persuading [President] Clinton to kill human rights as part of U.S. policy. From that, all else flowed. China and other dictatorships have shown throughout modem history that they can expand economically without expanding liberty -- as long as the democracies are so submissively ready to transfer their capital and technology to them."

    The "chatter that investors will want China to be more 'liberal' about human freedoms" is so much bunk, says Times' Rosenthal, based on "the muddy-minded assumption that investors in China care about anything except profits." To which Democratic Rep. Marcy Kaptur of Ohio adds a potential bumper-sticker zinger if there ever was one: "Freedom should mean more than selling fertilizer!"

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire horse
    umm...read what i wrote in its entirety, readddd...comprehend...then express...okayyy?

    look if you are on the short bus as well, there is a little fodder for you to feed on, remember dont choke on the big words or thoughts.

    http://www.workplacefairness.org/sc/jobs.php
    http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit...03074937/print

    http://www.boycottmadeinchina.org/en/why_boycott/qa/
    http://www.webcom.com/hrin/magazine/oct96/china.html

    http://www.buyhard.fsnet.co.uk/workers_rights.htm
    http://www.sweatshopwatch.org/swatch...02/index1.html

    Seen from the changes in the world situation and the United States' hegemonic strategy for creating monopolarity, war is inevitable...We cannot avoid it. The issue is that the Chinese armed forces must control the initiative in this war....We must be prepared to fight for one year, two years, three years or even longer." Chi Haotian, Chinese Defense Minister, Cheng Ming, Hong Kong's newspaper, January 11, 2000

    From the Mindszenty Report - August 1997

    The China lobby is among the most sophisticated in Washington. Those who help advance China's interest include former Secretaries of State Henry Kissinger, George Schultz, Alexander Haig, Lawrence Eagleburger and Cyrus Vance -- each of whom has earned tens of thousands of dollars from U.S. businesses doing business in China.

    For the record, The Knight-Ridder newspaper chain's Washington bureau -- with information provided by the Federal Elections Commission -- provides the following which it calls: "The China Lobby in the U.S.":

    "Firms belonging to the U.S.-China Business Council contributed more than $55 million to political campaigns in 1995 and 1996, making them an important lobby for favorable U.S. policies toward China."

    Top five overall contributors were: Phillip Morris, AT&T, Federal Express, BellSouth and Atlantic Richfield. And breaking it down to specific business categories: Communications -- GTE, AT&T, Ameritech, BellSouth, SBC Comm., Inc.; Aerospace -- Lockheed Martin, Textron, Inc., Northrop Grum., United Tech., Boeing Co.; Food/beverage -- Jos. E. Seagram, Coca-Cola Co., PepsiCo, Inc., McDonald's, Anheuser-Busch; Energy -- Atlantic Richfield, Chevron, Tenneco, Inc., Exxon Corp., Amoco Corp.; Pharmaceuticals -- Eli Lilly & Co., Pfizer, Inc., Bristol-Myers Sq., Abbott Labs., Amgen, Inc.; Banking/financial services -- Arthur Andersen, Morgan Stanley, Price Waterhouse, Coopers Lybrand, American Express; Consumer Goods -- Windmere Corp., Limited, Inc., Amway Corp., Procter & Gamble, General Electric.

    In addition to the big money, U.S.-China Business Council, a whole web of interconnected and funded coalitions also played a role in lobbying Congress on behalf of Beijing. Such as: the Emergency Committee for American Trade, the U.S.-China Education Fund and the Business Coalition for U.S.-China Trade.

    One of their standard arguments, of course, is "free trade is good for both U.S. and China" which sounds logical. In fact, however, Communist China does not allow foreign-owned industry to sell goods to the Chinese people. Beijing imports raw materials only to manufacture goods for re-export -- to the United States and other free world countries.

    As The New York Times noted (June 25, 1997): "lobbying effort operated on the retail level too. One retailer warned that 'Tickle Me Elmo' dolls would soar in price if higher tariffs were imposed on Chinese goods." This caused at least one Administration advisor to cringe: "it makes it sound like we should decide China policy at Toys 'R' Us."

    Nonetheless, as U.S.-China trade expert Harry Wu, a former prisoner in the Chinese gulag, notes: retail clothing with Arnold Palmer, Playboy and Garfield labels are typical of some of the merchandise coming to the U.S. from China produced in a prison in Guangdong Province. Other slave labor products, he adds, are sold by such companies as Officemate and Chrysler, which has its own joint-venture project the Beijing Jeep Corp./Beijing Auto Works. Kmart Co., with headquarters in Troy, MI, says Wu, sells a variety of toys and other merchandise made in slave labor prisons operated by China's army.

    "In America," writes A.M. Rosenthal -- former editor of The New York Times -- "the China trade lobby was Beijing's instrument of pressure, persuading [President] Clinton to kill human rights as part of U.S. policy. From that, all else flowed. China and other dictatorships have shown throughout modem history that they can expand economically without expanding liberty -- as long as the democracies are so submissively ready to transfer their capital and technology to them."

    The "chatter that investors will want China to be more 'liberal' about human freedoms" is so much bunk, says Times' Rosenthal, based on "the muddy-minded assumption that investors in China care about anything except profits." To which Democratic Rep. Marcy Kaptur of Ohio adds a potential bumper-sticker zinger if there ever was one: "Freedom should mean more than selling fertilizer!"
    Sweet Welds on that Frame!

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire horse
    umm...read what i wrote in its entirety, readddd...comprehend...then express...okayyy?

    look if you are on the short bus as well, there is a little fodder for you to feed on, remember dont choke on the big words or thoughts.
    Unfortunately, you have done nothing more than regurgitate a bunch of liberal POLITICAL bullcrap. This is NOT THE POLITICAL FORUM. As far as the shortbus, you continue to show that you have no understanding of a few basic concepts:

    1) This is a forum about bikes, NOT A POLITICAL FORUM.

    2) The well being of our economy is intertwined with the well being of China's economy. I know it is a stretch for you to handle this concept, but it is true.

    If you really want to have d*ck measuring contest about your self delusional intellegence lets start with educational backgrounds. I hold a B.A. in Economics from U.C.L.A. and a Doctorate of Jurisprudence from the University of Oregon. Let me guess where you went to college; you didn't. You felt you were to smart to go and there was nothing you could learn. Idiot.
    Riding slowly since 1977.

  51. #51
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    Silly mountain biker...

    Quote Originally Posted by CDMC
    Unfortunately, you have done nothing more than regurgitate a bunch of liberal POLITICAL bullcrap. This is NOT THE POLITICAL FORUM. As far as the shortbus, you continue to show that you have no understanding of a few basic concepts:

    1) This is a forum about bikes, NOT A POLITICAL FORUM.

    2) The well being of our economy is intertwined with the well being of China's economy. I know it is a stretch for you to handle this concept, but it is true.

    If you really want to have d*ck measuring contest about your self delusional intellegence lets start with educational backgrounds. I hold a B.A. in Economics from U.C.L.A. and a Doctorate of Jurisprudence from the University of Oregon. Let me guess where you went to college; you didn't. You felt you were to smart to go and there was nothing you could learn. Idiot.

    Of course you're wrong. Try and follow this logic without jamming a fork in your eye:

    1. The OP is right because he contends he is right.
    2. He agrees wholeheartedly that this discussion is politics and thus belongs on the Customer Builder's forum and not on the Political forum because he said so.
    3. Since you disagree with the OP, you are wrong by definition (see contention #1) thus confirming that he is correct.
    4. The communication skills of the OP are directly proportional to how much time he spends on spell check, the thesaurus and cutting and pasting other people's opinions. That's why we're seeing a few lucid posts (interspersed with cussing) but mostly some sort of e-gibberish (also interspersed with cussing). Through all of this, one fact remains true: You must agree with the OP on whichever subject he's discussing and whichever point he says he's making (despite the fact the the point changes from post to post) because HE SAID SO!
    5. So there!
    6. Changing colors, fonts and CAPITALIZING are important commmunication tools despite the contention of every grade school teacher who discourages overuse of these items when they first introduce word to their students. In fact, the first thing covered in an Introduction to Word Processing is to avoid these items because they aren't effective in communicating the message. Of course, everyone is clearly WRONG!
    7. Misspelling, not being able to glean context from written words, indescriminate cussing and changing topics when someone actually points out where you've contradicted yourself is a sign of superior intellect.

    Man, you sure are dummb for not seeing this.

  52. #52
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    i guess ur just not capable of reading and thinking..

    this is a MESSAGE BOARD...not an essay contest.

    i keep labeling you an idiot and other terms of distain because you persistantly demonstrate an inability to comprehend.

    in addition, you keep making false assumptions and bringing up irrelivent topics. short attention span as well?

  53. #53
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    OHH a lawyer, now that spells CREDIBILITY ! HAAAA!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by CDMC
    Unfortunately, you have done nothing more than regurgitate a bunch of liberal POLITICAL bullcrap. Poor bastard doesn't wanna read stuff he may disagree with. This is NOT THE POLITICAL FORUM. As far as the shortbus, you continue to show that you have no understanding of a few basic concepts:

    1) This is a forum about bikes, NOT A POLITICAL FORUM. another spoon feeding needed here--if a country (Chinese Military's Aerospace division) manufacturers a product (bicycle) under conditions that are severly oppressive to its own people (prison labor, suppressing student uprisings, Tinneman Square, blatant media sensorship, no human rights or worker safety regulations needless to say environmental ones, invading Tibet, etc) then guess what ...your purchase of that product is feeding that government's economy and therefore SUPPORTING IT! thus your purchase IS POLITICAL. wow guess u didnt learn too much in Poor House Doc, (PhD) skool hugh?

    2) The well being of our economy is intertwined with the well being of China's economy. I know it is a stretch for you to handle this concept, but it is true. any economics person SHOULD KNOW that it is always better for a country to be a net exporter with a trade partner rather than our current situation which is the opposite. we are a NET IMPORTER with China. this means that we buy more of their value added stuff than them ours. thus...we give them our cash for their value added products. they are winning the trade game, we are losing because....they end up with more of our money than us theirs!

    why do you think we want china to open up its market more to US firms, refelect the real value of its currency, and make the human rights, worker safety, and environmental regulations playing field an even one? GUESS YOU didnt learn too much w you Bad Attitude, BA degree either..sucker. look it up dumbarse!


    If you really want to have d*ck measuring contest about your self delusional intellegence lets start with educational backgrounds. GEE WHEN DID I SAY THIS? I hold a B.A. in Economics from U.C.L.A. and a Doctorate of Jurisprudence from the University of Oregon. HMM...but were u able to pass the bar?
    Let me guess (INSERT ANOTHER FASLE ASSUMPTION HERE) where you went to college; you didn't. You felt you were to smart to go and there was nothing you could learn. Idiot (poor guy, his so called education couldnt buy him common sense).
    SUCKERS R SOOOO MUCH FUN, HEHEHE

  54. #54
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    Troll,

    I will feed you one more time. Your discussion concerns your thoughts on human rights, that is political. You make the statement that we are a net importer of Chinese products because we have a trade deficit with them so in your words "they end up with more of our money than we do of theirs." What do you think happens to this money, it just evaporates. No it gets spent, it may be in services (not considered in trade debt) or investment, but it doesn't just dissapear. The idea of a trade deficit in and of itself being a "bad" thing is very outdated.

    I notice you didn't respond to my comments about your education. As I figured you wouldn't answer, as you obviously have never spent any time in college, relying on your very warped views as being so superior that college would have simply been a waste of time. You make a comment about me passing the bar, the answer is yes, the first time I took it.

    Unfortunately, all you are capable of is calling names and telling everyone how dumb they are. I assume it is because you are so lacking in self-confidence it is all you can do when confronted. Do us a favor and crawl back under the rock you crawled out from.
    Riding slowly since 1977.

  55. #55
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    Boycott

    And your childish, braging, namecalling tantrums are proof positive that aducation and intelligence aren't mutually exclusive. However intertwined our economy is with China's and the rest of the world our current deficit is unhealthy, and with attitudes like yours bound to get worse. Your attitude is typical of some overeducated underinteligent self important people who contribute nothing meaningful to society. You spent so much time in school that you lost tuch with the fact that people like yourself matter little in the real world. If we were all "economists" we would all die of starvation, exposure and illness because none of us decided to follow a noble and useful path into farming, textiles, engineering, manufacturing or medicine. When a person like yourself is gone there is no proud legacy, and nothing to morn.

  56. #56
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    Slowrider

    Quote Originally Posted by slowrider
    And your childish, braging, namecalling tantrums are proof positive that aducation and intelligence aren't mutually exclusive. However intertwined our economy is with China's and the rest of the world our current deficit is unhealthy, and with attitudes like yours bound to get worse. Your attitude is typical of some overeducated underinteligent self important people who contribute nothing meaningful to society. You spent so much time in school that you lost tuch with the fact that people like yourself matter little in the real world. If we were all "economists" we would all die of starvation, exposure and illness because none of us decided to follow a noble and useful path into farming, textiles, engineering, manufacturing or medicine. When a person like yourself is gone there is no proud legacy, and nothing to morn.
    I will always buy the products that are the best deals regardless who makes them, besides start looking at who really makes the stuff we own, just about all childrens toys and plastic items say made in China on them and our American and Japaneses cars have parts in them from several different countries.
    Although I am concerned about the national debt. I can do little about it. I can however be pragmatic with my own finances and try to get ahead personally.

  57. #57
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    Good job! your rite

    Quote Originally Posted by Bike Nazi
    I will always buy the products that are the best deals regardless who makes them, besides start looking at who really makes the stuff we own, just about all childrens toys and plastic items say made in China on them and our American and Japaneses cars have parts in them from several different countries.
    Although I am concerned about the national debt. I can do little about it. I can however be pragmatic with my own finances and try to get ahead personally.
    I agree with and understand what your saying, I'm not saying we should bankrupt ourselves to employ our neighbors. Only that a company like airborn sells hardtail frames for about the same price as a custome builder like Curtlo or Titus and under those conditions I'll allways buy from the latter two.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowrider
    And your childish, braging, namecalling tantrums are proof positive that aducation and intelligence aren't mutually exclusive. However intertwined our economy is with China's and the rest of the world our current deficit is unhealthy, and with attitudes like yours bound to get worse. Your attitude is typical of some overeducated underinteligent self important people who contribute nothing meaningful to society. You spent so much time in school that you lost tuch with the fact that people like yourself matter little in the real world. If we were all "economists" we would all die of starvation, exposure and illness because none of us decided to follow a noble and useful path into farming, textiles, engineering, manufacturing or medicine. When a person like yourself is gone there is no proud legacy, and nothing to morn.
    Where shall we start?

    1) Did I say anything to you to warrant you attacking me? So why?

    2) Please do explain the long term negative effects of a trade deficit?

    3) Yes, I matter little in the real world. I bet you don't either. Unlike you, I don't believe for a second that I am more important in the world than anyone else.

    4) You arguement if we were all . . . holds no water. If we were all firemen, we wouldn't have a place to live. If we were all doctors, we wouldn't have food to eat, etc., etc..

    5) Please do tell us what your proud legacy is, since you have assumed I have none. Frankly, I don't care if anyone morns me when I am gone, as long as my family is taken care of, that is all that matters.

    6) I love the arguement that because I am educated, I cannot have any common sense. I guess that since I have no common sense, I should stop working on my cars, stop doing yardwork, give up hunting, not work on my bike, etc.. Tell me what great common sense do you have that I am somehow lacking because I worked my ass off and borrowed money to go to college.

    7) Do you have anything constructive to add? All you managed to do was go off on a personal attack.
    Riding slowly since 1977.

  59. #59
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    Boycott

    It wasn't a response to anything you said to me personally, it was just a response to your repeted judgemental negative assaults on the opinions of others. Your sometimes profane allways condiscending "spoonfeeding" and intentional ( I hope) misspelling of words as an attack on the others in your ongoing tirade to convince everyone else that your degree form this university or that university gives you exclusive rites to opinions. If the language and demeanor used here are an example of what you learned at those universities you should ask for a refund. I don't know you except from your display on this forum, and for that I am thankful. Buy the way, it's allright to support your neighbors and to withhold your support from those you dissagree with; much better than your methods or the one I used to draw your latest display of contempt for others.

  60. #60
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    silly rabbit...

    Troll---DOH, name calling!!!,

    I will feed you one more time. Your discussion concerns your thoughts on human rights, that is political(cant seem to connect the dots STILL! refuses to take a wholistic, umm...MACRO-economic view at all) .

    You make the statement that we are a net importer of Chinese products because we have a trade deficit with them so in your words "they end up with more of our money than we do of theirs." What do you think happens to this money, it just evaporates. No it gets spent, (surley not by the poorly compensated workers, dumb arse)

    it may(may...HAAA...ISINT is more like it in the case of China, it goes straight to the ruling class, arms buildup, etc) be in services (not considered in trade debt) or investment, but it doesn't just dissapear (never said it did...read). The idea of a trade deficit in and of itself being a "bad" thing is very outdated.(clearly a student of VOODOO economics skool, i know new big word for you this may help explain it for ya http://www.salon.com/news/col/huff/2002/09/05/voodoo/ http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Voodoo%20economics, dude, your "economics" education is shameful!)

    I notice you didn't respond to my comments about your education (yea, im not here to show my cards or boast about my education or credentials, just discuss a simple topic)

    As I figured you wouldn't answer ( i did answer, again reaaad, i said you were making false assumptions about it, not the answer you wanted but, still an answer)

    , as you obviously have never spent any time in college, relying on your very warped views as being so superior that college would have simply been a waste of time.(again another one of YOUR false assumptions, not mine) You make a comment about me passing the bar, the answer is yes, the first time I took it. (whopeeee, you get an ATTA BOY! that and a token will get you back on the short bus of your choice, Haaaa!)

    Unfortunately, all you are capable of is calling names and telling everyone how dumb they are. (NOOO..you demonstrate how dumb "educated" folk can b)

    I assume (HERE YOU GO AGAIN, ASSUME AWAY) it is because you are so lacking in self-confidence it is all you can do when confronted. (READ BOI, READ..PLEASEE!) Do us a favor and crawl back under the rock you crawled out from.[/QUOTE] NAWW, this is way too much fun.

  61. #61
    SS Clyde 29er
    Reputation: fire horse's Avatar
    Join Date
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    ASSUMPTIONS runnith amock!

    Quote Originally Posted by slowrider
    And your childish, braging, namecalling tantrums are proof positive that aducation and intelligence aren't mutually exclusive. However intertwined our economy is with China's and the rest of the world our current deficit is unhealthy, and with attitudes like yours bound to get worse. Your attitude is typical of some overeducated underinteligent self important people who contribute nothing meaningful to society. You spent so much time in school that you lost tuch with the fact that people like yourself matter little in the real world. If we were all "economists" we would all die of starvation, exposure and illness because none of us decided to follow a noble and useful path into farming, textiles, engineering, manufacturing or medicine. When a person like yourself is gone there is no proud legacy, and nothing to morn.
    WOW, what venom, what spite...dude, you'd make a great single speeder with that kinda
    chutzpah! Again my friend, contain you assertations within the context of the discussion. Do not make baseless, far reaching assumptions about folks in which you have little insight. The above insights are points of view...not career statements. Focus Grasshopper, focus!

  62. #62
    Doesntplaywellwithmorons!
    Reputation: DeeEight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    10,864
    i'm not sure why everyone bothered feeding the troll who's hiding behind his keyboard for this long.
    I don't post to generate business for myself or make like I'm better than sliced bread

  63. #63
    SS Clyde 29er
    Reputation: fire horse's Avatar
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    Mar 2004
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    hiding..HIDING? well tell u what...

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    i'm not sure why everyone bothered feeding the troll who's hiding behind his keyboard for this long.
    meet me at the county line tonite at 8pm. ill bring my best girl betty sue, she can throw the flag, and we can race for pink slips! haaa, now how is that for hiding!

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