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  1. #1
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    Cmon Man!

    So ever since I purchased my new to me stumpjumper Iíve always wondered why it seems that some people I ride with just keep pulling on me when we ride. I seem to be at the same cadence but they seem to pull away effortlessly. I actually feel as if I slow down when I free wheel and they just keep going when they do the same? Is my gear setup is whatís causing this? I jump on my hard tail and no problem keeping up...maybe Iím just new or am I missing something?
    Last edited by BrutusBuckeye; 03-01-2019 at 05:55 PM.

  2. #2
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    they're stronger than you

  3. #3
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    Like I said, on my hardtail there is no issue, only when Iím on my FS...

  4. #4
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    So you get dropped while coasting? Could be your tires, size, rolling resistance, pressure, could be your stumpjumper putting you in a more upright position than your hardtail creating more wind resistence. Maybe your brakes are dragging. This ones a mystery

  5. #5
    EAT MORE GRIME
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    fitness.

    you need to keep riding with them and do all you can to chase. the rest will sort itself out if you at right and ride a ton more than they do. 2 killer rides a week minumum, the rest of the week saddle time at slow, medium pace.

    you'll come around in time if you are motivated


    ----
    only on the FS ? ok then

    fitness. ride harder on the FS
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  6. #6
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    I blame Specialized.
    :nono: :thumbsup:

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrutusBuckeye View Post
    Is my gear setup is whatís causing this?
    Do we know how your Stumpjumper is set up?

  8. #8
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    Same cadence/easier gear=lower speed.

    Shift up.
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  9. #9
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    After ensuring that the brake pads aren't rubbing, HTFU!

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrutusBuckeye View Post
    So ever since I purchased my new to me stumjumper Iíve always wondered why it seems that some people I ride with just keep pulling on me when we ride. I seem to be at the same cadence but they seem to pull away effortlessly. I actually feel as if I slow down when I free wheel and they just keep going when they do the same? Is my gear setup is whatís causing this? I jump on my hard tail and no problem keeping up...maybe Iím just new or am I missing something?
    What tires are on your new bike? Years ago I was experimenting with tires and threw a set of Highroller Stick-E tires on my bike. I went from being the fastest in the group to the slowest in one ride. Friends were laughing at me on road sections of our ride when I was pedaling my ass off and they coasted by me. I ditched the Highrollers after that ride and chalked it up as a lesson learned.

    The rolling resistance of various tires makes a huge difference...

  11. #11
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    Do a test if they will help. Get in the exact same gear and follow them. Try to match your cadence to theirs, then coast and see if you really bleed speed off faster then they do. Another test would be to have one of them ride your bike on a trail that they are really familiar with and see if they think it requires more effort.

    This could be a number of things, from fitness to drag somewhere on the bike. Places where your could have higher drag would be like those mentioned above. Tires and brakes are two of the main culprits that I'd look at but don't forget things like hubs with worn out bearings or needing lubed to your own weight.

    If you are heavier then they are that could conceivably increase your rolling resistance, but since you say it's only on the FS and not the hardtail I'd look at rolling resistance starting with the tires,

  12. #12
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    Spin your wheels, and make sure they spin freely. I've felt like I was pedaling in sand all day, then hours later it dawns on me, my brake is dragging the whole time...duh. Embarrassingly, I've done this more than once... thinking it was just me sucking worse that day.

    Could be hubs too. Could also just be the fact that your FSR suspension, while extremely supple and plush, is not the most efficient pedaler. Maybe just be the extra weight. With my old FSR, I had to spin smooth circles to get the most out of it.

  13. #13
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    Dragging brakes, draggy bearings, or slow rolling tires. Does the full suspension have more aggressive tires, specifically in the rear?
    Rigid SS 29er
    SS 29+
    Fat Lefty
    SS cyclocross
    Full Sus 29er (Yuck)

    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  14. #14
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    Stock gear setup as far as Iím aware...Iím rolling on a bontrager xr3 comp front and a Hutchinson cobra rear

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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    Dragging brakes, draggy bearings, or slow rolling tires. Does the full suspension have more aggressive tires, specifically in the rear?
    my hardtail imo has more aggressive tires, have never thought of bearing issues till you mentioned it...hmmm

  16. #16
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    It's a possibility. BB and wheels mostly, derailleur pulleys too.
    Rigid SS 29er
    SS 29+
    Fat Lefty
    SS cyclocross
    Full Sus 29er (Yuck)

    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  17. #17
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    Pump the bike. I can run over pedaling people with some well timed pumps. KE<-->PE

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Pump the bike. I can run over pedaling people with some well timed pumps. KE<-->PE
    Advanced technique, but very true

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by d365 View Post
    Spin your wheels, and make sure they spin freely. I've felt like I was pedaling in sand all day, then hours later it dawns on me, my brake is dragging the whole time...duh. Embarrassingly, I've done this more than once... thinking it was just me sucking worse that day.

    Could be hubs too. Could also just be the fact that your FSR suspension, while extremely supple and plush, is not the most efficient pedaler. Maybe just be the extra weight. With my old FSR, I had to spin smooth circles to get the most out of it.
    Yep, I don't want to blame the suspension entirely, but looking at these two anti-squat profiles:

    Specialized Epic 29'' 2017 - Linkage Design

    S. Stumpjumper 29'' 2019 - Linkage Design

    Just pick your halfway mark through the travel and see how much more AS is present in the Epic, you can think of the anti-squat as the % of efficiency to simplify things if we are talking up to 100%, but it's not a direct correlation. Significantly above 100%, like 120+ and you start to get into some choppy interaction between pedaling and suspension forces, but even the efficient designs tend to avoid this completely these days. The thing about these bikes with the "falling" AS line is that you get on a steep hill, pedal hard, hit a bump, the suspension goes further into the travel where there is less anti-squat, so you have to pedal harder to keep going, which causes more rear-weight shift, the fork unweights so it gets harder to keep going forward, the rear travel sinks even further, where there is even less anti-squat, which requires you to pedal even harder, and it gets somewhat into a feedback loop IME. It's not that they are terribly inefficient, but the harder you try to go faster, the more inefficient it becomes, jerky pedaling, acceleration forward, trying to pedal fast through an uphill rock garden, etc. The flip-side is they give you a massive-traction feeling going uphill. You don't have to have a harsh suspension or low travel to get better pedaling traits, but this general trait of FSR could be contributing.

    The point about the two bikes is that specialized makes the epic significantly more efficient, ignoring travel and other things. Specialized is kind of "boxed in" IMO, they invested so heavily in FSR and the marketing that they can't just abandon it, even though a simpler single-pivot design is better in many ways.

    I don't think it's any coincidence that the more efficient bikes these days like Santa Cruz, Intense, Yeti, Evil, Pivot, and many more, retain close to 100% plus or minus a few percentage points, to at least halfway through the travel, before tapering off. Specialized and a few other holdouts seem to believe more in a "static" model where you only have 100% at the sag point, which would work great for non-accelerated riding on pavement, but I find the other designs above seem to give far more consistent pedaling over varied surfaces. There was a lot of hype about the DW link frames, but many manufacturers have found out how to give similar traits in both single-pivot and other linkage designs, without infringing on the patent. The ones that are more stuck with a "straight line" instead of a curve have been trending towards a flatter straight line for years, again, to provide more anti-squat in the mid-travel to prevent the bogging issues IMO.

    Longer travel, heavy wheels, slow-rolling tires, tubes, all make the bike bog down. It's fairly dramatic how well a real XC race rig can accelerate. On mine, it feels like it's impossible to get caught in the wrong gear uphill, because you just lay down the power and you somehow always power-out of getting caught in the high gear, whereas on my enduro bike, sometimes it requires you to shift way down or in extreme cases, stop and shift, then start again.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  20. #20
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    Your buddies are faster than you. On your hard you are at your limit to keep up, swapping over to the fs is all it takes to fall back. Eat less pies, pedal more and get more fitness.
    The fittest guy there will be the fastest regardless of bike...... unless its a rediculously inappropriate bike.

    PS I assume when you hit the down the roles are reversed. The fs goes faster than the ht.

  21. #21
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    Probably the learning curve of the new bike and your body positioning.
    Timing and pedal power on the full suspension is likely different than the HT you're on, including suspension and geometry.
    Tire rolling resistance could be part of it too. What size tires on both bikes, and what air pressure. A fatter tire, or lower air? Probably more rolling resistance.

    I can't coast as fast down a hill on my 27.5", 14psi 2.8" tires and I can on the 2.3" 29ers with 22psi.

    When riding the wider tires, I'm sucking wind and my legs are failing me when I'm going slower than ever on anything uphill.

  22. #22
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    Pedaling most spec bikes means you're losing a pretty big amount of energy to the bike flopping around. A heavy footed mash makes this much worse.

    A very even and smooth cadence helps a lot.

  23. #23
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    Last week I was pedaling my Stumpjumper and it was difficult. I kept it in the firm setting.

    Then since we were in the desert, I chocked it up to the sand we were riding over.

    Then later I chocked it up to the horrendous wind.

    Later still, I conceded I must be having an off day.

    I kept plugging away though.

    At the end of the ride, I discovered my plus rear tire had like 6 psi in it.

    The ride was not steep. We we're at the Spicer Ranch near Beatty NV.

    Maybe it was aliens.

    So there's always that.



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  24. #24
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    Jayem, I agree with most of what you said up there generalizing about FSR bike behavior.

    Granted it's not perfect, but I still like the '16 FSR I ride sometimes.

    Getting forward on the climbs helps a lot. Sitting back and mashing in a tall gear is terrible on an FSR.

    Another negative trait is that when the bike squats in the rear as riding uphill and caught in a taller gear, the bottom bracket gets closer to the ground, and this can instant in disastrous pedal strikes.

    All bike designs have positive aspects, and negatives. FSR riders like me are definitely sorely acquainted with the negatives.

    However, the FSR design can and does deliver great braking while remaining active. This is good for recreational riding. In a DH race situation, it probably matters less. Letting off the brakes for big bumps delivers more speed and active suspension on all designs, LOL.

    Yeah, I'm going to to ride the plus sized 6Fattie Stumpjumper tommorow on some big steep climbs. I'm not disadvantaged.

    Some riders, by the way, set their seat dropper posts up a little tall, so that when they hit climbs, they can scoot close to the nose and get their weight ahead of the bottom bracket.

    This helps kick the pedals over, and gets the front wheel on track for better steering up steep technical lines, and just as important helps combat that negative feedback loop where the rear squats too much.

    Personally I don't set my saddle over high. But with most droppers you may easily let it down a tad for most situations.

    The other remedy I resort to when getting caught behind the saddle in a g-out, crossing a gulch and hitting a hard climb, is to pop up forward, and help the suspension recoil and then settle down, in appropriate gear, to climb.

    Yep, the FSR is sometimes not as good at standing mash climbs, as some VPP or DW bikes I have ridden.

    There's also a difference in the way these designs feel when you manual. Another discussion.

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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Burns View Post

    However, the FSR design can and does deliver great braking while remaining active. This is good for recreational riding. In a DH race situation, it probably matters less. Letting off the brakes for big bumps delivers more speed and active suspension on all designs, LOL.
    There was a time when the entire industry started to shift in this direction, with floating brake-arms showing up on all kinds of bikes, but it was quickly found that a certain amount of squat from braking was beneficial for handling, keeping the wheel down, increasing traction, and preventing as much forward weight-shift when braking. This really comes to a point when going down something steep, no matter if you are XC or DH. Some horst-links/lawill bikes tended to stinkbug (jack) but even the ones that didn't would still rise up significantly in the back due to weight transfer, and even though this still happens with some squat designed in, it's not as bad. Of course, a linkage fork may be another way to achieve the same. Of course, too much squat and it'll feel choppy and harsh over bumps while braking, so it's a balance.

    But again, back to the suspension efficiency, it's probably not the only factor and maybe not the most significant factor, you add in things like wheel weight, fitness, rolling resistance, travel, etc., you can get some very significant differences in how a bike will accelerate and pedal. But, when you start to look to accelerate faster and keep more speed, you do have to look at all of these things.

    Enjoy.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  26. #26
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    Last fall I was intentionally ripping down a super fast fire-road roller at yikes speed into the bottom of the parabolic profile and decided to tap the brakes just as the rise came up, because there was a hiker that from 50 yards away didn't seem sure of what to do, and at that point seemed like they could go right or left, and I wasn't going to slow down until the last moment only if necessary, and so as the FSR compressed fully, and instinctively I got slightly behind the saddle, in thinking so that the sudden deceleration from the oncoming incline and the feathered brakes would not throw me forward, but the G's were so intense that my ass buzzed the rear tire, and the friction literally melted my baggy shorts. The hiker had safely stepped to the side, and there was no negative social incident. I just zoomed by.

    That instance was something I hadn't experienced before. The rear shock was wide open. I knew it was important to level the pedals, just avoid any pedal strikes at warp speed.

    It could have been real bad! I had the notion that if I had actually sat on the tire at compression and high speed my nuts would have literally been sucked into the rear triangle!

    Holy shit. Obviously with a story like that, I was running out of talent at the time. But how else can I learn, but from the wonderful and amazing book of experience?

    My GPS recorded 48.7 mph at that moment.

    On another thread some guy wrote about how he collided with an oncoming motorcycle on a fire-road descent at over 50 mph!

    What sort of suspension is best for this situation? At speed, the dynamics are different. It seems a firmer shock setting is the ticket.

    Well, of course, discretion is the better part of valor, right? So maybe toning it down is a wiser approach. But hell, here on Earth, it feels heavenly to haul ass.

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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Burns View Post
    Last fall I was intentionally ripping down a super fast fire-road roller at yikes speed into the bottom of the parabolic profile and decided to tap the brakes just as the rise came up, because there was a hiker that from 50 yards away didn't seem sure of what to do, and at that point seemed like they could go right or left, and I wasn't going to slow down until the last moment only if necessary, and so as the FSR compressed fully, and instinctively I got slightly behind the saddle, in thinking so that the sudden deceleration from the oncoming incline and the feathered brakes would not throw me forward, but the G's were so intense that my ass buzzed the rear tire, and the friction literally melted my baggy shorts. The hiker had safely stepped to the side, and there was no negative social incident. I just zoomed by.

    Holy shit. Obviously with a story like that, I was running out of talent at the time. But how else can I learn, but from the wonderful and amazing book of experience?

    My GPS recorded 48.7 mph at that moment.
    On any bike, that is hauling a$$, especially on a mountain bike.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

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