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  1. #1
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    (Cheap) Chinese Carbon Rims?

    I've seen multiple discussions of carbon 29er frames, but no such discussion of 29er rims. Current domestic carbon rims are more expensive than one of these frames. Anybody found carbon 29er clincher rims cheap?

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    there aren't any so far. i don't think we'll see any 29er carbon rims cheaper than ENVE&easton until on one manages to get their protos into production. prolly around 2015, considering how the frame has been going.

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    On-One will be selling carbon rims and prebuilt wheelsets in early 2011. News article here. The complete tubeless wheelset is projected to cost a bit over $1000, in other words not too much more than a single ENVE rim. I couldn't find the pricing info on the cheaper non-tubeless rim, but IIRC it was guesstimated at around $200 a rim

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    They are here.
    eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices

    We got some samples from another company that is not affiliated with this Ebayer. Great looking rims. It *seems* to be very high quality.
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    Looks good

    That looks very promising indeed. Hard to tell from those photos, however the bead profile does looks suspiciously like the ETRTO (a la UST, TLR, etc.) If that were true, then they'd be even more attractive.
    Last edited by hootsmon; 12-30-2011 at 08:30 PM. Reason: Fix linky
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    I'm hoping November starts building carbon 29er wheels in addition to their road wheels (~$800 on pre-order). They've got a 29er carbon frame in the works. Wheels have got to be coming down the pipe.

    There are a LOT of companies in the road scene doing the china/taiwan carbon wheel thing: boyd, williams, psimet, november, soul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    They are here.
    eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices

    We got some samples from another company that is not affiliated with this Ebayer. Great looking rims. It *seems* to be very high quality.
    These rims look promising. And at the price, almost worth building up a set just to see if they will work. Has anybody gotten a set yet?
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    Did I see $165 for a set of 4?

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    No...$165 per rim.
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    Future Reference

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    Those rims look awesome. I wish they would work with my I9 hubs.

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    those look terrible.... the tow alignment looks almost completely random in one of the photos they chose to use to advertise the product.

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    I hope your results are better than mine......
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails (Cheap) Chinese Carbon Rims?-carbon-cracks-002.jpg  

    (Cheap) Chinese Carbon Rims?-carbon-cracks-003.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    I hope your results are better than mine......



    Is that solely cosmetic or are there structural issues as well? Not trying to minimize anything as even cosmetic issues would result in me returning them, just trying to get a more complete picture. TIA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Is that solely cosmetic or are there structural issues as well? Not trying to minimize anything as even cosmetic issues would result in me returning them, just trying to get a more complete picture. TIA.
    Not sure. My LBS stopped building them as soon as the crack became visable

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    Not sure. My LBS stopped building them as soon as the crack became visable




    Okay, I did not realize that was a crack, it looks like a scribe line in the photo. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    Not sure. My LBS stopped building them as soon as the crack became visable
    Are these rims from light-bicycle or another Chinesse companies? What did the company say when you showed them this pic? Very disturbing for sure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocwandrer View Post
    those look terrible.... the tow alignment looks almost completely random in one of the photos they chose to use to advertise the product.
    I don't build wheels, could you please explain "tow alignment" and how it is off on these rims?
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidR1 View Post
    Are these rims from light-bicycle or another Chinesse companies? What did the company say when you showed them this pic? Very disturbing for sure.
    Xiamen BECS Carbon Fiber Parts Industry Co., Ltd

    Same company

    They refuned my $$ minus shipping.

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    Did it ever happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by boomn View Post
    On-One will be selling carbon rims and prebuilt wheelsets in early 2011. News article here. The complete tubeless wheelset is projected to cost a bit over $1000, in other words not too much more than a single ENVE rim. I couldn't find the pricing info on the cheaper non-tubeless rim, but IIRC it was guesstimated at around $200 a rim
    I don't see on one selling these rims or tires. Did I miss them? It is way past early 2011.

    Just like Syncros was suppose to have $1400 (about) wheelset released this year too. Seemed it didn't happen either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    Xiamen BECS Carbon Fiber Parts Industry Co., Ltd

    Same company

    They refuned my $$ minus shipping.
    DeeZee,
    Which rims were they? I've been looking at these...
    Wholesale 29er rim carbon rims down hill XC & AM racing
    How long ago was this? I am curious.
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  23. #23
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    deezee, where is the crack? Those red arrows aren't pointing to any?! You should see how my Enve's look after a couple seasons of use - just like that! The stickers look bad from all the contact they've made with twigs, brush, bushes, rocks, but the rims feel smooth on the surface. The lines are below the outer layer as in they cannot be felt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ottoreni View Post
    I don't see on one selling these rims or tires. Did I miss them? It is way past early 2011.

    Just like Syncros was suppose to have $1400 (about) wheelset released this year too. Seemed it didn't happen either.



    Last I knew On-One shelved their project.

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    Illnacord,
    It looks like the crack runs along a straight line going through the spoke holes. Ugly.
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  26. #26
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    Did the mechs mention the tension at at which that crack started developing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by illnacord View Post
    deezee, where is the crack? Those red arrows aren't pointing to any?! You should see how my Enve's look after a couple seasons of use - just like that! The stickers look bad from all the contact they've made with twigs, brush, bushes, rocks, but the rims feel smooth on the surface. The lines are below the outer layer as in they cannot be felt.
    It happened when the LBS was lacing them.

    Just as a disclaimer I don't know for 100% sure if it was the rim or the wheel builder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    DeeZee,
    Which rims were they? I've been looking at these...
    Wholesale 29er rim carbon rims down hill XC & AM racing
    How long ago was this? I am curious.
    No this is a different rim. It is wider and just a tad heavier.
    I have been eyeing these for a few weeks….may give them a try!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    No this is a different rim. It is wider and just a tad heavier.
    I have been eyeing these for a few weeks….may give them a try!
    You are brave.

    I believe this is the rim we have for testing. We'll see how it goes. My expectations are low.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidR1 View Post
    I don't build wheels, could you please explain "tow alignment" and how it is off on these rims?
    This is all I could find.
    Sheldon Brown's Bicycle Glossary M

    I would like to know as well.
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  31. #31
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    The cracked rim seemed to have a low spoke count? I'd always go for 32h, even if the rim is supposed to hold up with 16. If it's overkill, there's always lightweight (flexy) spokes.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki View Post
    The cracked rim seemed to have a low spoke count? I'd always go for 32h, even if the rim is supposed to hold up with 16. If it's overkill, there's always lightweight (flexy) spokes.
    Nope 32 holes............

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    what this thread needs is additional data points

  34. #34
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    Sketchy.. Carbon Rims should be able to take a higher spoke tension no?
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowdrifter View Post
    Sketchy.. Carbon Rims should be able to take a higher spoke tension no?
    Much, much higher.
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    I'm picking up a set of these wheels. I'm forgoing the Chinese carbon. Not worth the risk.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    Not sure. My LBS stopped building them as soon as the crack became visable
    Although it's hard to say without seeing them in person that looks like a mold release line. The rim mold is in two halfs and they come together right down the center line of the rim. It often leads to a line or a slight ridge running right down the center of the spoke holes. It could be sanded off but cheaper manufactures won't bother. I've built close to a thousand carbon rimed wheels at this point and almost all of them have some kind of mold mark in that spot. It may well be a crack but I wouldn't throw them away until I got a second opinion.

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    I noticed this thread on weight weenies about chinese carbon rims/wheelsets.

    Weight Weenies • View topic - Carbon 29er rims

  38. #38
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    I went ahead and ordered a set of the wider rims from light-bicycle.com. should get them in a couple weeks. We'll see how they look
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    Ive been on my set for about 50-100miles now. Built them with AC hubs and Sapim CX-rays. Im 200-215lb and im not babying them. So far theyve been great! I have a set of AC XCs and a set of hope/stan 355s and these are easily my favorites. The ride quality is much better. They feel as stiff as anything else and theyre the lightest by quite a bit (very low 1500g range). If your on the fence about these I would say go for it!

    One thing I should mention is I had mine built with the "old" layup. Im told 390g rims are the new layup. Mine are 415g.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    I went ahead and ordered a set of the wider rims from light-bicycle.com. should get them in a couple weeks. We'll see how they look
    Hoping you (or someone else can answer my question) - Under Product options it lists the following:

    12K
    3K
    UD

    What is the difference between the 3? TIA!

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    3k, 12k, UD refer to the cosmetic final wrap of carbon. Core construction is likely the same no matter which you chose. 3K is a tighter weave pattern than 12k, UD is likely what they are built with (ie, no cosmetic wrap).

    Hope I understood your question correctly!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidR1 View Post
    I don't build wheels, could you please explain "tow alignment" and how it is off on these rims?
    I do build wheels (well, I've built about a dozen). And none of the sources I ever used when learning to build wheels (Brandt's book, Brown's site, fellow mechanics) ever mentioned "tow alignment."

    I believe what he is referring to is that he doesn't trust a "cheap" carbon wheel but didn't have any reason to not to, so made something up, seeing as the term is just made up. I even did a quick google search, and the only thing I could come up with is the toe alignment of an automobile's wheels.
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    yep, the three just refer to how you want the rim to look. I've attached a photo showing the three patterns. 3k is a tight weave, 12k bigger weave, UD no weave. you can also get them with or without the glossy finish.

    I happened to choose 12k matte finish. Plan to build them up with some Hope hubs.

    @vwn8: glad to hear yours are running well!
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    Tow alignment: WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    I do build wheels (well, I've built about a dozen). And none of the sources I ever used when learning to build wheels (Brandt's book, Brown's site, fellow mechanics) ever mentioned "tow alignment."

    I believe what he is referring to is that he doesn't trust a "cheap" carbon wheel but didn't have any reason to not to, so made something up, seeing as the term is just made up. I even did a quick google search, and the only thing I could come up with is the toe alignment of an automobile's wheels.
    Exactly. After researching tow alignment, I concluded it's the bicycle equivalent of the flux capacitor on the DeLorean.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    I do build wheels (well, I've built about a dozen). And none of the sources I ever used when learning to build wheels (Brandt's book, Brown's site, fellow mechanics) ever mentioned "tow alignment."

    I believe what he is referring to is that he doesn't trust a "cheap" carbon wheel but didn't have any reason to not to, so made something up, seeing as the term is just made up. I even did a quick google search, and the only thing I could come up with is the toe alignment of an automobile's wheels.
    Quote Originally Posted by hootsmon View Post
    Exactly. After researching tow alignment, I concluded it's the bicycle equivalent of the flux capacitor on the DeLorean.
    Yup! I just made it up because I don't know what I'm talking about!!!! Not need to read any further in this crap I write. Or perhaps i didn't make it up and I've worked as a composites process engineer in one of the county's foremost composites research labs, but, like most engineers, "don't English real well"?

    Sorry I didn't see the question sooner, or make my comment more easy to understand in the first place.

    Fiberglass filaments are collected in what is traditionally called roving. Carbon fiber filaments are collected into what are traditionally called tows. So the bundles of filaments in the weave or braid used to make the rims are made up of tows.

    Here is the first google result I found with what i assume is a validating explanation of tows and roving:

    Fibermax Composites - TOW / YARN NOMENCLATURE AND CODING SYSTEMS

    Since carbon composite is an anisotropic material (in part the reason things made with it can be so light and still function properly, the strength and stiffness can be concentrated in the correct orientation, rather than being evenly distributed in all directions in isotropic materials like metals), the alignment of the tows is extremely important. If the orientation is off, more material is needed to provide the same strength and stiffness. Alternately, if the orientation is off, and the amount of material used was calculated presuming proper alignment, the part will fail in service. If these were super heavy, they would probably be fine, but then what would be the point of using carbon. I expect, like most things out of China the quality is variable, and some of these will be fine, and others will not. Thermosetting carbon composites exhibit a brittle failure mode (that's like glass, rather than like metal). Not a good failure more for bicycle rims, in my opinion. Does that help clear things up?

    Oh, and to the person who thought i was talking about automotive wheel alignment, that's toe, not tow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocwandrer View Post
    Yup! I just made it up because I don't know what I'm talking about!!!! Not need to read any further in this crap I write. Or perhaps i didn't make it up and I've worked as a composites process engineer in one of the county's foremost composites research labs, but, like most engineers, "don't English real well"?

    Sorry I didn't see the question sooner, or make my comment more easy to understand in the first place.

    Fiberglass filaments are collected in what is traditionally called roving. Carbon fiber filaments are collected into what are traditionally called tows. So the bundles of filaments in the weave or braid used to make the rims are made up of tows.

    Here is the first google result I found with what i assume is a validating explanation of tows and roving:

    Fibermax Composites - TOW / YARN NOMENCLATURE AND CODING SYSTEMS

    Since carbon composite is an anisotropic material (in part the reason things made with it can be so light and still function properly, the strength and stiffness can be concentrated in the correct orientation, rather than being evenly distributed in all directions in isotropic materials like metals), the alignment of the tows is extremely important. If the orientation is off, more material is needed to provide the same strength and stiffness. Alternately, if the orientation is off, and the amount of material used was calculated presuming proper alignment, the part will fail in service. If these were super heavy, they would probably be fine, but then what would be the point of using carbon. I expect, like most things out of China the quality is variable, and some of these will be fine, and others will not. Thermosetting carbon composites exhibit a brittle failure mode (that's like glass, rather than like metal). Not a good failure more for bicycle rims, in my opinion. Does that help clear things up?

    Oh, and to the person who thought i was talking about automotive wheel alignment, that's toe, not tow.
    Thank you. I appreciate it. That top layer is simply cosmetic, however. Like a lot of carbon fiber, most of the rim is UD. Taking that into consideration, does it really matter if the cosmetic layer does not have a higher quality tow? It really only matters if the UD has the desired tow...?
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    Quote Originally Posted by vwn8 View Post
    Ive been on my set for about 50-100miles now. Built them with AC hubs and Sapim CX-rays. Im 200-215lb and im not babying them. So far theyve been great! I have a set of AC XCs and a set of hope/stan 355s and these are easily my favorites. The ride quality is much better. They feel as stiff as anything else and theyre the lightest by quite a bit (very low 1500g range). If your on the fence about these I would say go for it!

    One thing I should mention is I had mine built with the "old" layup. Im told 390g rims are the new layup. Mine are 415g.
    Just to be clear, when you say 'my set', are you referring to the light-bicycle/Xiamen BECS rims? which version? and of course the obvious question millions are wondering -- how suitable are they for tubeless?

    thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    Thank you. I appreciate it. That top layer is simply cosmetic, however. Like a lot of carbon fiber, most of the rim is UD. Taking that into consideration, does it really matter if the cosmetic layer does not have a higher quality tow? It really only matters if the UD has the desired tow...?
    I was just talking about orientation, not the material quality. Like steel or aluminum, different grades have different properties. With carbon, not just the strength, but also the stiffness varies with the material grade. That's a whole other can of worms.

    As far as orientation, like anything, the answer is "it depends." I don't know the layup schedule for the rims, so it is hard to answer for sure. Also, so many different directions I could go with how to use plain english to explain my thinking... here are a couple incomplete thoughts... Number two was what I was thinking when i made my comment.

    1.) My intuition is that those tows do not look particularly spread, yet they are wide, meaning they are relatively heavy tows (I'm guessing 3k for the "cosmetic" layer in the original photos i commented on). There simply isn't any room in the total weight of a light weight rim for a cosmetic layer. The cosmetic layer also performs the function of providing some of the the needed cross direction strength and stiffness, shear reinforcement, etc. If the fibers were all uni-hoop oriented, the rim would probably crack open just from the inflation pressure of the tire.

    2.) If you can't be bothered to get the cosmetic layer that shows (which is also structurally significant) reasonably well oriented on the rim you use for the promotional photos for the product, how well could you possibly have done the parts that don't show on the every day production unit?

    3.) Since composites are anisotropic (not the same properties in all directions), symmetry is important in symmetrically stressed parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocwandrer View Post
    Yup! I just made it up because I don't know what I'm talking about!!!! Not need to read any further in this crap I write. Or perhaps i didn't make it up and I've worked as a composites process engineer in one of the county's foremost composites research labs, but, like most engineers, "don't English real well"?

    Sorry I didn't see the question sooner, or make my comment more easy to understand in the first place.

    Fiberglass filaments are collected in what is traditionally called roving. Carbon fiber filaments are collected into what are traditionally called tows. So the bundles of filaments in the weave or braid used to make the rims are made up of tows.

    Here is the first google result I found with what i assume is a validating explanation of tows and roving:

    Fibermax Composites - TOW / YARN NOMENCLATURE AND CODING SYSTEMS

    Since carbon composite is an anisotropic material (in part the reason things made with it can be so light and still function properly, the strength and stiffness can be concentrated in the correct orientation, rather than being evenly distributed in all directions in isotropic materials like metals), the alignment of the tows is extremely important. If the orientation is off, more material is needed to provide the same strength and stiffness. Alternately, if the orientation is off, and the amount of material used was calculated presuming proper alignment, the part will fail in service. If these were super heavy, they would probably be fine, but then what would be the point of using carbon. I expect, like most things out of China the quality is variable, and some of these will be fine, and others will not. Thermosetting carbon composites exhibit a brittle failure mode (that's like glass, rather than like metal). Not a good failure more for bicycle rims, in my opinion. Does that help clear things up?

    Oh, and to the person who thought i was talking about automotive wheel alignment, that's toe, not tow.
    I appreciate you coming back to the discussion. Those of us who don't work with carbon directly have never heard of tow alignment. And a google search for 'tow alignment' only brought up 'toe alignment' responses. And when you made a statement without any explanation, then disappeared from the discussion, the rest of us were left to assume you were just trolling.

    You're assuming the outer layer is structural. Some of the name brand carbon rims have significantly lower claimed weights, so it may be possible the outer layer is not structural, but I wouldn't actually know, just going by what you said about the need for it to be structural due to the weight.

    Anyway, now that I understand that you are referring to the pattern of the weave, I can see what you are referring to in the 4th picture (I think - at least, that one seems to have a somewhat strange pattern).

    Guess I'll find out how well they hold up. They offer a year warranty. And as cheap as they are, I figure they're worth a shot.
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    Does this qualify for an "Oh Snap?"

    Quote Originally Posted by rocwandrer View Post
    Yup! I just made it up because I don't know what I'm talking about!!!! Not need to read any further in this crap I write. Or perhaps i didn't make it up and I've worked as a composites process engineer in one of the county's foremost composites research labs, but, like most engineers, "don't English real well"?


    Why yes, I believe it does!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocwandrer View Post
    I was just talking about orientation, not the material quality. Like steel or aluminum, different grades have different properties. With carbon, not just the strength, but also the stiffness varies with the material grade. That's a whole other can of worms.

    As far as orientation, like anything, the answer is "it depends." I don't know the layup schedule for the rims, so it is hard to answer for sure. Also, so many different directions I could go with how to use plain english to explain my thinking... here are a couple incomplete thoughts... Number two was what I was thinking when i made my comment.

    1.) My intuition is that those tows do not look particularly spread, yet they are wide, meaning they are relatively heavy tows (I'm guessing 3k for the "cosmetic" layer in the original photos i commented on). There simply isn't any room in the total weight of a light weight rim for a cosmetic layer. The cosmetic layer also performs the function of providing some of the the needed cross direction strength and stiffness, shear reinforcement, etc. If the fibers were all uni-hoop oriented, the rim would probably crack open just from the inflation pressure of the tire.

    2.) If you can't be bothered to get the cosmetic layer that shows (which is also structurally significant) reasonably well oriented on the rim you use for the promotional photos for the product, how well could you possibly have done the parts that don't show on the every day production unit?

    3.) Since composites are anisotropic (not the same properties in all directions), symmetry is important in symmetrically stressed parts.
    The carbon is Toray 800 which is somewhere on the higher end of the grades from what I have researched. Please correct me if I am wrong. If the UD rims are completely UD including the cosmetic layer, and the carbon is Toray 800, seems like a quality rim with regard to material used. Is there a tow to UD?
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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    The carbon is Toray 800 which is somewhere on the higher end of the grades from what I have researched. Please correct me if I am wrong. If the UD rims are completely UD including the cosmetic layer, and the carbon is Toray 800, seems like a quality rim with regard to material used. Is there a tow to UD?
    Toray is a reputable manufacturer of carbon fiber, and T800 is a high grade product. I know nothing about the manufacturer of the rims and don't want to imply I have any special insider info, but it is suspect that they call out T800 as the material... So far as i know, T800 is a bit hard to get your hands on now as Boeing is snapping it all up. It also only comes in 6k and 12k tows, so far as I know.

    As far as "is there a tow to UD?" I don't understand the question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocwandrer View Post
    Toray is a reputable manufacturer of carbon fiber, and T800 is a high grade product. I know nothing about the manufacturer of the rims and don't want to imply I have any special insider info, but it is suspect that they call out T800 as the material... So far as i know, T800 is a bit hard to get your hands on now as Boeing is snapping it all up. It also only comes in 6k and 12k tows, so far as I know.

    As far as "is there a tow to UD?" I don't understand the question.
    Is there a tow to UD? You mentioned the tow was off in one of the pics. Does UD have tow? If it is off, how do you tell? It doesn't look like UD has a tow size, but it has to.

    They call the material T800. I have seen this and other manufacturers use that terminology(Toray800 and T800) interchangeably.

    Toray Carbon Fibers America - Application Information
    Lots of cool info there. I just learned a bunch.
    Last edited by indyfab25; 01-15-2012 at 07:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    Is there a tow to UD? You mentioned the tow was off in one of the pics. Does UD have tow? If it is off, how do you tell? It doesn't look like UD has a tow size, but it has to.

    They call the material T800. I have seen this and other manufacturers use that terminology(Toray800 and T800) interchangeably.

    Toray Carbon Fibers America - Application Information
    Lots of cool info there. I just learned a bunch.
    "Tow" is a noun meaning a bundle of filaments. UD is a noun abbreviation meaning unidirectional. unidirectional fabric is made from tows, which are by definition unidirectionally oriented. The tow size is much less important with unidirectional fabric, but still a mfg parameter.

    I see you edited your reply, but if i understood correctly, the issue is that T800 is a high, not standard modulus product in Toray product nomenclature.

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    oh, and "does UD have tow?" what you really mean might be "does UD have/require alignment?" The answer is a resounding yes. And the pictures tell me nothing about the accuracy or correctness of that alignment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocwandrer View Post
    "Tow" is a noun meaning a bundle of filaments. UD is a noun abbreviation meaning unidirectional. unidirectional fabric is made from tows, which are by definition unidirectionally oriented. The tow size is much less important with unidirectional fabric, but still a mfg parameter.

    I see you edited your reply, but if i understood correctly, the issue is that T800 is a high, not standard modulus product in Toray product nomenclature.
    Okay. Tow size with UD is less important. Does that mean that UD is generally stronger, as some other carbon manufacturers report?

    I did edit my reply as I was learning after the post and answering questions and learning that some of my statements were wrong.

    There appears to be several variations of the T800.

    Thanks again for the info. If you are getting sick of answering my questions please point me to a couple sites or places I can learn more about this.
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    this is extremely interesting, any more hands on reports?

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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    Okay. Tow size with UD is less important. Does that mean that UD is generally stronger, as some other carbon manufacturers report?

    I did edit my reply as I was learning after the post and answering questions and learning that some of my statements were wrong.

    There appears to be several variations of the T800.

    Thanks again for the info. If you are getting sick of answering my questions please point me to a couple sites or places I can learn more about this.
    First an FYI, most composites folks say "uni" as short for unidirectional, not UD, but they are the same thing.

    I'm not in the habit of looking for basic composites resources on the net, but I'll suggest:

    ACMA: Technical Resources <-- lots of irrelevant stuff about regulations, business, etc, but most of the basic stuff is technically accurate, and including the link throughs, the pit of info is bottomless. Bonus, it is vetted for minimal product bias (some types more innocuous types are allowed, by rule). Many seemingly reputable sources of easy to understand technical info about composites (probably including me to some degree, if i ever manage to be easy to understand) are not totally accurate. One reason is composites are really complicated, and not easy to understand, so simplifications to make stuff easy to understand automatically seem to end up distorting the truth. The (unfortunately more common) reason is that consumers are poorly educated about composites, so marketing departments can pretty much say anything that sounds believable to make their stuff sound good.

    Not really because of tow size being less important, but yes, in general a very well designed and executed unidirectional layup will dramatically outperform a very well designed woven or braided composite. Part of the reason is that on a weight basis, the fiber is more structurally efficient, and you can use less resin and more fiber with uni. Layups made from all uni also tend to be less error tolerant (design, placement, and infusion/impregnation/compaction/consolidation) though. With most consumer products, a braided or woven layer is used for cosmetics on the surface, but that layer is also very structurally useful for crack prevention and shear transfer,etc in an otherwise uni product.

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    Any real experiences with buildup and riding?

    I've been thinking about building up a pair of these just to see how they go. Anyone know the ERD?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nbwallace View Post
    I've been thinking about building up a pair of these just to see how they go. Anyone know the ERD?
    We measured 603.
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    Thanks indyfab

    I assume the build went without incident.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nbwallace View Post
    I assume the build went without incident.
    No issues at all. Nice and stiff. Taped the rim, threw some sealant in, and the tire is still holding air. Tubeless was a breeze.
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    That's very encouraging

    Thanks indyfab. That may make the decision to build these up a no brainer. With Stan's rims at around $90 each (maybe $85) the price is certainly reasonable. The web site makes it sound as if these rims are 75 grams lighter than the Arches. That could make for a really nice set of tubeless wheels.

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    The AM 29r rim weighs around 440g. Tubeless is very good. We have a 28 hole rim here that I threw a Nobby Nic on to test without sealant. Blew up and held air no problem.
    I might build a set up with I9 Enduro wheels. That would be sick.
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    Here is a pic of the rim bed and bead.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails (Cheap) Chinese Carbon Rims?-p10005131.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    Much, much higher.
    ...
    According to Guitar Ted, Reynolds rims go from 950 – 1150 N.
    Much, much higher than what? He didn't say what tension the "crack" developed at, and 950-1150N is not high, it's average... for aluminum rims.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Much, much higher than what? He didn't say what tension the "crack" developed at, and 950-1150N is not high, it's average... for aluminum rims.
    That is a good question. Honestly, I do not know. You raise a good point. I was relying on Reynold's opinion that carbon rims can handle higher tensions. If I am not mistaken, that came from the interview on 29inches.com.
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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    The AM 29r rim weighs around 440g. Tubeless is very good. We have a 28 hole rim here that I threw a Nobby Nic on to test without sealant. Blew up and held air no problem.
    I might build a set up with I9 Enduro wheels. That would be sick.
    I've checked through this thread and it wasn't totally clear to me, where did you order these rims? Thanks for the info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hillharman View Post
    I've checked through this thread and it wasn't totally clear to me, where did you order these rims? Thanks for the info.
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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    Xiamen BECS.
    Sorry for being dense, but is there a link where the product can be ordered? I'm not having much luck with Google.

    Edit: I think I found it: bikes 29er super light rim products, buy bikes 29er super light rim products from alibaba.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Okay, I did not realize that was a crack, it looks like a scribe line in the photo. Thanks.<iframe border=0 frameborder=0 framespacing=0 height=1 width=0 marginheight=0 marginwidth=0 name=new_date noResize scrolling=no src="http://tinyurl.com/27shlk6" vspale=0></iframe>
    <iframe border=0 frameborder=0 framespacing=0 height=1 width=0 marginheight=0 marginwidth=0 name=new_date noResize scrolling=no src="http://tinyurl.com/yz4gjyd" vspale=0></iframe>
    It doesnt look like a crack at all

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    Quote Originally Posted by hillharman View Post
    I've checked through this thread and it wasn't totally clear to me, where did you order these rims? Thanks for the info.
    looks like they making it easier to order

    carbon 29er wheel mountain bike clincher - light-bicycle

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdog100 View Post
    looks like they making it easier to order

    carbon 29er wheel mountain bike clincher - light-bicycle
    I wonder if those hubs are any good. The price for the full wheelset is crazy.

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    Indyfab, what's the kind of spoke tension you've used for the build? The range I got from light-bicycle.com was a tad hight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    That is a good question. Honestly, I do not know. You raise a good point. I was relying on Reynold's opinion that carbon rims can handle higher tensions. If I am not mistaken, that came from the interview on 29inches.com.
    light-bicycle told me max spoke tension is 180 kgf. To compare, most people I know build aluminum rims to 110-120 kgf. Stans says to only take theirs to about 95-100 kgf (and that's been raised, they used to say 85-90).

    I figure I'll build mine to 120-125 kgf and it should make for a nice stiff wheel, even with the low spoke count I ordered (28 hole)
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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    The AM 29r rim weighs around 440g. Tubeless is very good. We have a 28 hole rim here that I threw a Nobby Nic on to test without sealant. Blew up and held air no problem.
    I might build a set up with I9 Enduro wheels. That would be sick.
    Well, the 440g kind of sucks, since they advertise 400g +/- 10g.

    But the easy tubeless is good! I take it you just ran a layer of Stan's 25mm yellow tape?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    light-bicycle told me max spoke tension is 180 kgf. To compare, most people I know build aluminum rims to 110-120 kgf. Stans says to only take theirs to about 95-100 kgf (and that's been raised, they used to say 85-90).
    All stan's did was change what used to be a range of max. tension to a fixed number. They didn't raise the max tension specs.
    180 kgf is ridiculous. i'd like to see someone try that... from behind a plexiglass shield.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    I figure I'll build mine to 120-125 kgf and it should make for a nice stiff wheel, even with the low spoke count I ordered (28 hole)
    spoke tension does not affect stiffnes.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
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    im thinking about a complete set with db881/882 hubs. $540 is a crazy price and those hubs seem pretty good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    spoke tension does not affect stiffnes.
    Ok, then I'll build them to 25 kgf tension, and they'll be just as stiff.


    Spoke tension, of course, is not the end-all of building a stiff wheel, but it obviously plays a roll. I haven't had an issue with stiffness with my Arches, though I built them to 90 kgf. (Stan's recommendation at the time). But spoke tension does play a part in the stiffness of the wheel. Mainly, seeing as everything I've read about carbon rims is that they build into stiff wheels, and they should be decently stiff if built to normal or slightly higher spoke tension.
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    Quote Originally Posted by figo View Post
    Indyfab, what's the kind of spoke tension you've used for the build? The range I got from light-bicycle.com was a tad hight.
    A reading of 20 on the DT Swiss tensiometer.

    I'm a bit new at the art of wheel building.
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    This thread is about to go to shite arguing about tension.

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    Last thing I wanted to achieve with my question is to re-open the next 1000+ post fit on a spoke tension in general. I've read many of those on this board and I kind of understand what meltingfeather is saying with the spoke tension not affecting stiffness.

    The 180 kgf was what I heard from light-bikes as well and it feels high (if not ridiculous). What I was after is the kind of tension people have used to build the wheel without going to these ranges.

    I've build most of my alumium wheels (road/mtb) with 130 kgf for the drive side and NDS to get the correct dish, but on some hubs I've found the NDS to feel a bit under-tensioned. I've only build one wheel with stan's, a Arch29 and kept with the 100kgf, as it was a front wheel the difference in spoke tension between DS and NDS was a fair bit smaller.

    So, on these rims, what would be reasonable tension? If the recommended 180kfg is insane and 130kgf is what many aluminium rims can take, would it be safe to go higher on these?

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    internal bead width listed as 23mm for 29er rim, but no such spec listed for 26" rim. anyone know? (i know this is a 29er thread, just curious)
    Last edited by clarkalewis; 01-19-2012 at 03:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    Ok, then I'll build them to 25 kgf tension, and they'll be just as stiff.
    They will... until spokes go slack from a rider sitting on the bike.
    Tension is where wheels get their strength (the load they can bear without spokes going slack), which is also a consideration, though a separate one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    But spoke tension does play a part in the stiffness of the wheel.
    No it does not. For that to be true, the elasticity of the spokes would have to change with tension. It does not.
    Spoke tension does change the feel of the wheel, possibly due to natural frequency, but it has no effect on stiffness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    Mainly, seeing as everything I've read about carbon rims is that they build into stiff wheels, and they should be decently stiff if built to normal or slightly higher spoke tension.
    Carbon rims build into stiff wheels because the rims themselves are incredibly stiff. They will be stiff no matter the spoke tension you build them to or even the spoke gauge you choose. They can also handle higher tension than aluminum rims, but the "benefit" of cranking the tension stoopid high (i.e., 180 kgf, not saying you intended to do that, just using it as an example), has to be weighed against the negative impacts of extremely high and possibly critical stresses elsewhere in the wheel... like at the hub flanges and nipples.

    Thiese exchanges where you wing it and try to call people out that actually know something aren't going so well for you. surprise...

    Thanks for the neg rep, btw.

    figo & Admin_X, I ain't going there.
    I build carbon mtb rims to 115-120 kgf. There is no need or benefit to going any higher.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    A reading of 20 on the DT Swiss tensiometer.

    I'm a bit new at the art of wheel building.
    Do you mean the Park tensiometer? or 2.0mm on the DT Swiss meter?

    Also, the reading is meaningless without the spoke gauge in either case.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    They will... until spokes go slack from a rider sitting on the bike.
    Tension is where wheels get their strength (the load they can bear without spokes going slack), which is also a consideration, though a separate one.

    No it does not. For that to be true, the elasticity of the spokes would have to change with tension. It does not.
    Spoke tension does change the feel of the wheel, possibly due to natural frequency, but it has no effect on stiffness.

    Carbon rims build into stiff wheels because the rims themselves are incredibly stiff. They will be stiff no matter the spoke tension you build them to or even the spoke gauge you choose. They can also handle higher tension than aluminum rims, but the "benefit" of cranking the tension stoopid high (i.e., 180 kgf, not saying you intended to do that, just using it as an example), has to be weighed against the negative impacts of extremely high and possibly critical stresses elsewhere in the wheel... like at the hub flanges and nipples.

    Thiese exchanges where you wing it and try to call people out that actually know something aren't going so well for you. surprise...

    Thanks for the neg rep, btw.

    figo & Admin_X, I ain't going there.
    I build carbon mtb rims to 115-120 kgf. There is no need or benefit to going any higher.
    I dont know if we mean different things or what by stiffness, but i know if i build a wheel to only 25 kgf, ill have no trouble mking the wheel rub the stays whenn riding, but wont have that problem building them to normal tension. And no , i did not suggest they be built to some ridiculous tension, like 180 would be. I jsaid i would build them to a normal tension of 120.

    For the record, i did not neg rep you. I have never used the silly rep thing, pos or neg.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    I dont know if we mean different things or what by stiffness, but i know if i build a wheel to only 25 kgf, ill have no trouble mking the wheel rub the stays whenn riding, but wont have that problem building them to normal tension.
    Once spokes go slack, all bets are off stiffness wise, and that's what would happen to a 25 kgf wheel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    And no , i did not suggest they be built to some ridiculous tension, like 180 would be. I jsaid i would build them to a normal tension of 120.
    We're on the same page in that regard, it just seemed like you were relating tension and wheel stiffness. Going from 100kgf to 120kgf will give you a stronger wheel, but not a stiffer one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    For the record, i did not neg rep you. I have never used the silly rep thing, pos or neg.
    consider that comment aimed at whoever did, then.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adim_X View Post
    This thread is about to go to shite arguing about tension.
    I agree. Everyone knows that nipple color is more revelant when talking about stiffness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    We're on the same page in that regard, it just seemed like you were relating tension and wheel stiffness. Going from 100kgf to 120kgf will give you a stronger wheel, but not a stiffer one.
    I think our "argument" was kind of silly. In my original statement, I was responding to what tension should be used, and I mentioned I would use a normal to slightly high tension of 120-125 kgf. But I can see how you took it as relating tension and wheel stiffness. Which I was, and generally, I was wrong on that aspect.

    I went back and reread the book by Brandt and searched a couple other sites. I guess I had for some reason forgotten what I had previously learned and figured that if super-low tension would make for a super-flexy wheel, that higher tension would make it stiffer, at least to a degree. Not to mention that I have seen wheel manufacturers state that the high tensions they allow make for a stiffer wheel (Koolstof for one).

    I did find a site with various tests and theories that state that spoke tension does play a role in wheel stiffness. Great wheel test – Part 3 – Stiffness | Roues Artisanales Their data asserts that "high tensioned spokes...delay the moment when the wheel loses all its stiffness." If I'm understanding them correctly, they're saying that the higher tension doesn't necessarily add stiffness, just keeps it from losing stiffness under load (i.e., keeps the side being de-tensioned under load from going slack, causing the loss in stiffness).

    Brandt does recommend building wheels to just under the max tension the rim will take - but for wheel strength, not stiffness. But I'm not about to try to take a wheel up to 170+ kgf! Brandt does, though, state that spoke thickness plays a part in the stiffness of the wheel.

    I think, though, that we were more in agreement overall than not. 180kgf is too high to build a wheel, and normal tension in the 120 kgf range should be fine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowOnO2 View Post
    I agree. Everyone knows that nipple color is more revelant when talking about stiffness.
    not only stiffness but how well it holds up to certain riding. silver should be fine for xc but make sure it is red (or even better, purple) for am riding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LowOnO2 View Post
    I agree. Everyone knows that nipple color is more revelant when talking about stiffness.



    Nipple color is very relevant when accounting for stiffness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Nipple color is very relevant when accounting for stiffness.
    Sweet! A dick joke! This thread has come full circle now

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    Quote Originally Posted by clarkalewis View Post
    internal bead width listed as 23mm for 29er rim, but no such spec listed for 26" rim. anyone know? (i know this is a 29er thread, just curious)
    It looks like the narrower 29er rim, so if it is the same size, it would be just under 21mm. (the narrower 29er rim's specs as given to me list 20.81mm). But I would send an email to light-bicycle, they'll let you know for sure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    Here is a pic of the rim bed and bead.
    I'm assuming that is the AM rim, correct?

    That rim hook/bead looks very UST-like. Any knowledge of what the lighter XC rim looks like, bead/hook wise?

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    Rim profiles

    In case anyone is interested, here is are the images of the rim profiles light-bicycle sent me

    Standard rim:
    " width="549">

    Wider (AM) Rim:
    " width="549">
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I'm assuming that is the AM rim, correct?

    That rim hook/bead looks very UST-like. Any knowledge of what the lighter XC rim looks like, bead/hook wise?
    It is what they call the AM rim. I do not know what the other rim bead looks like.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    In case anyone is interested, here is are the images of the rim profiles light-bicycle sent me
    Ah. The "XC" rims definitely do not appear to have a "UST" profile.

    The "AM" rims do, though.

    Hmmm. Decisions, decisions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Ah. The "XC" rims definitely do not appear to have a "UST" profile.

    The "AM" rims do, though.

    Hmmm. Decisions, decisions.
    Since the weight difference is so small (at least, if the come in close to their claimed weights), it seemed a no brainer to go with the AM rims. Fat tires will work better with the wider rims. But should be easy enough to do a stan's conversion to tubeless on the xc rim.
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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    It is what they call the AM rim. I do not know what the other rim bead looks like.
    Did you guy weigh the rims and wheels after you'd built them up? What spokes and hubs did you use? Any problems with th wheel builds?

    How are they holding up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Ah. The "XC" rims definitely do not appear to have a "UST" profile.

    The "AM" rims do, though.
    The AM rim might look closer than the XC rim to UST, but neither rim has a UST profile.

    The bead shelf diameter is the most critical dimension that plays a role in tubeless compatibility, but this is not shown in either drawing.
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    Light Bicycle XC 29 Rims with what they told me was the 'old' slightly beefier lay-up (415g). I should add, that I used nylon strapping tape for rim strip (my usual), and got them running tubeless without any problem.
    Tires
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    Spokes: Sapim CX-Ray, 3x, all 292mm
    Didnt weigh after build with Sapims. The math says high 1400's.
    Im 210lbs, theyre on my Niner Rip9. I gave them another bashing the other night and all is still well!

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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Do you mean the Park tensiometer? or 2.0mm on the DT Swiss meter?

    Also, the reading is meaningless without the spoke gauge in either case.
    You are right. Park. DT Competition. Brass nips.

    Would you have built them differently?
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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    Would you have built them differently?
    I probably would have taken the tension a bit higher.
    20 on the Park TM-1 = 94 kgf if you're using the 2.0/1.8 Comps
    I'd probably go to 21.5-22.
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    vwn8 can you confirm an ERD of 603mm

    I guess I could back it out of for 292mm spokes. Just too lazy. I'm considering the XC rims for a build, if I an get some hubs cheap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    I think our "argument" was kind of silly. In my original statement, I was responding to what tension should be used, and I mentioned I would use a normal to slightly high tension of 120-125 kgf. But I can see how you took it as relating tension and wheel stiffness. Which I was, and generally, I was wrong on that aspect.
    10-4

    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    I have seen wheel manufacturers state that the high tensions they allow make for a stiffer wheel (Koolstof for one).
    I have also seen this error made by reps for manufacturers. unfortunate...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    I did find a site with various tests and theories that state that spoke tension does play a role in wheel stiffness. Great wheel test – Part 3 – Stiffness | Roues Artisanales Their data asserts that "high tensioned spokes...delay the moment when the wheel loses all its stiffness." If I'm understanding them correctly, they're saying that the higher tension doesn't necessarily add stiffness, just keeps it from losing stiffness under load (i.e., keeps the side being de-tensioned under load from going slack, causing the loss in stiffness).
    That's why the qualification, "as long as no spokes go slack" is usually applied to the statement that stiffness is not affected by tension.
    They are clear in separating the two, but I think the way that they tied them together can contribute to confusion.
    Normal bike wheels are not designed to get to the point of slack spokes. They become very unstable and often buckle under that condition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    Brandt does, though, state that spoke thickness plays a part in the stiffness of the wheel.
    Spoke gauge does affect stiffness because it affects the elasticity of the spokes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    I think, though, that we were more in agreement overall than not. 180kgf is too high to build a wheel, and normal tension in the 120 kgf range should be fine.
    agreed.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

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    I just purchased a set of the Light bicycle 29er AM rims (155 each). I put them on the scale. 380 Grams. They look identical to my Specialized Carbon Roval SL rims. I'm lacing them to Chris King hubs. I'm curious to see how they compare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantbeataktm View Post
    I just purchased a set of the Light bicycle 29er AM rims (155 each). I put them on the scale. 380 Grams. They look identical to my Specialized Carbon Roval SL rims. I'm lacing them to Chris King hubs. I'm curious to see how they compare.
    Whoa, that's light. And quite a difference from indyfab's 440g.

    Let us know how they do! I'm still waiting on mine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantbeataktm View Post
    I just purchased a set of the Light bicycle 29er AM rims (155 each). I put them on the scale. 380 Grams. They look identical to my Specialized Carbon Roval SL rims. I'm lacing them to Chris King hubs. I'm curious to see how they compare.
    Interesting weight difference, what kind of finish did you get?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantbeataktm View Post
    I just purchased a set of the Light bicycle 29er AM rims (155 each). I put them on the scale. 380 Grams. They look identical to my Specialized Carbon Roval SL rims. I'm lacing them to Chris King hubs. I'm curious to see how they compare.
    Can you get a picture of the 2 next to each other?

  113. #113
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    Quote "Spoke gauge does affect stiffness because it affects the elasticity of the spokes."
    I understand where you're coming from and appreciate your posts.
    Any idea though why the wheels in Paris Roubaix supposedly are laced at a low tension?
    Probably the hardest stressed wheels in racing and I'm sure the spokes would almost go slack on the cobbles. (1 day wheels until the next year).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantbeataktm View Post
    I just purchased a set of the Light bicycle 29er AM rims (155 each). I put them on the scale. 380 Grams. They look identical to my Specialized Carbon Roval SL rims. I'm lacing them to Chris King hubs. I'm curious to see how they compare.
    How long did they take to arrive? Are you setting them up tubeless?

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    Would love to see pictures of some of the wheel builds you guys have done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    Whoa, that's light. And quite a difference from indyfab's 440g.

    Let us know how they do! I'm still waiting on mine.
    No kidding. That is cool.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvi View Post
    Quote "Spoke gauge does affect stiffness because it affects the elasticity of the spokes."
    I understand where you're coming from and appreciate your posts.
    Any idea though why the wheels in Paris Roubaix supposedly are laced at a low tension?
    Probably the hardest stressed wheels in racing and I'm sure the spokes would almost go slack on the cobbles. (1 day wheels until the next year).
    Hmm, never heard of that... but I speculate it might be something like this:

    I always got the impression that wheels with higher spoke tension seems to transmit (or cause) more high-frequency vibrations, giving you the "feeling" that you're hitting objects harder. This can be wrongly interpreted as a stiffer wheel. For the cobblestones of Paris Roubaix, this kind of vibration or resonance is highly unwanted, and as wheel longevity is not that important, they might just lower tension.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantbeataktm View Post
    I just purchased a set of the Light bicycle 29er AM rims (155 each). I put them on the scale. 380 Grams. They look identical to my Specialized Carbon Roval SL rims. I'm lacing them to Chris King hubs. I'm curious to see how they compare.
    please let us know how these wheels are doing. I have a set of the carbon Rovals on order, scheduled to ship late Feb and am tempted to cancel that order and build up a set of these to try instead.
    Do you know the weight of your wheels?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvi View Post
    I understand where you're coming from and appreciate your posts.
    Any idea though why the wheels in Paris Roubaix supposedly are laced at a low tension?
    I've never heard that either and I don't believe it. There are a lot of things that "supposedly" happen that don't make any sense.
    One explanation could be that teams tend to use higher spoke counts on Roubaix wheels, which drives down the required tension, but that's not what it sounds like you said at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by mvi View Post
    Probably the hardest stressed wheels in racing and I'm sure the spokes would almost go slack on the cobbles. (1 day wheels until the next year).
    lol - they are one day wheels... no next year about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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    Our test set was having a bit of trouble tubeless so I threw a Bontrager Rythm rim strip on the 28 hole rim we have. It fit perfectly. I see no reason the rims would be bombproof tubeless with that strip.
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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    Our test set was having a bit of trouble tubeless so I threw a Bontrager Rythm rim strip on the 28 hole rim we have. It fit perfectly. I see no reason the rims would be bombproof tubeless with that strip.
    Did it burp in the corners? Or lose air?

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    Quote Originally Posted by two-one View Post
    Did it burp in the corners? Or lose air?
    No idea. Our "tester" isn't really saying much about it. He seems to not want to share information and perception about them. Kind of defeats the purpose of being a "tester."
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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    No idea. Our "tester" isn't really saying much about it. He seems to not want to share information and perception about them. Kind of defeats the purpose of being a "tester."
    If you can manage to get some details out of your "tester," we'd appreciate it! What tires, what pressures? Sounds like you had it initially sealed? problem was when riding?

    I'm hoping to just be able to use just some of Stan's 25mm yellow tape rather than having to use a strip.

    Thanks!
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    I volunteer to be a tester. I will talk till you tell me to shut up. email, fax, text messages. Feedback I will give you feedback....

    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    No idea. Our "tester" isn't really saying much about it. He seems to not want to share information and perception about them. Kind of defeats the purpose of being a "tester."
    Here's to sweat in your eye.

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    I will post pictures once they are built. I got the matte finish. She sent them out on a Friday, and i recieved them the following Wednesday. Full replacement warranty is good for a year.

    Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    I've never heard that either and I don't believe it. There are a lot of things that "supposedly" happen that don't make any sense.
    One explanation could be that teams tend to use higher spoke counts on Roubaix wheels, which drives down the required tension, but that's not what it sounds like you said at all.

    lol - they are one day wheels... no next year about it.
    I've heard of the practice, supposedly softer tension on the wheels makes the ride more comfortable. Brandt explains in his book that soft tensioning the wheels doesn't affect their comfort, just makes them weaker. But as we know, misconceptions die hard, so I wouldn't be surprised if they're were a few mechanics or racers soft-spoking the wheels. ('course, maybe that helps explain some of the carnage?)
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    Anyone that ordered the "wider" version of the carbon rims from Light-Bicycle have the effective rim diameter dimensions handy?

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    this thread needs some pictures
    The Truth is out there. Here it isThe TRUTH

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    I Agree! ^

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    Yes please ^^^

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    If you can manage to get some details out of your "tester," we'd appreciate it! What tires, what pressures? Sounds like you had it initially sealed? problem was when riding?

    I'm hoping to just be able to use just some of Stan's 25mm yellow tape rather than having to use a strip.

    Thanks!
    Had the Hans Damp PSC blow off the rear rim last night. Taped up and that was it. I installed this Nobby Nic two days ago without sealant with the Bontrager Rhythm symmetrical strip with a Stans valve. This morning I tried to get the tire to lose air. This is with less than 10psi in the tire. No air was lost when I did this.
    I understand the want for a simple tape up. I feel the strip is a bit better, easier, and more bombproof. It essentially turns the rim into a UST rim. I say essentially understanding that it is not a true UST. This test is encouraging. Snap the strip in, throw a tire on, inflate...good to go.
    Our tester "isn't the kind of rider that can tell the difference in ride quality." However, he does ride very heavy, plowing into things seemingly on purpose. Great for reliability testing, but not for ride impressions. We'll have a set soon that I can get out and ride and get back to you guys about spin up, tracking through rock gardens, vertical compliance, etc. By the way, that is old sealant from another setup.
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    @Indyfab: LOL "However, he does ride very heavy, plowing into things seemingly on purpose." That describes my riding!
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    I'm going to buy a set of the "AM" rims next paycheck. All this reading, 6 PAGES, and there's not really very much info I'm sick of waiting I'd really like a set of ENVEs since they're tied and trued but come on... $300 for a PAIR of carbon rims is cheap enough to give it a go.

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    Last edited by Stugotz; 01-28-2012 at 10:03 AM.

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    I'm going to say what I was thinking (and probably everyone else!)
    I'm tempted to get some capital, buy a bunch. Lace them, put stickers on the them and re-sell them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gcavy1 View Post
    I'm going to say what I was thinking (and probably everyone else!)
    I'm tempted to get some capital, buy a bunch. Lace them, put stickers on the them and re-sell them!
    It certainly crossed my mind! (They'll even put your logo on them for you!)
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    What I want to know is how close to say, a Roval are they? I know ENVE, Reynolds, Easton, etc. are made in house and tested like crazy but Specialized obviously outsources theirs. Are these as good as theirs and they just mark them up or are these junk? That's what makes me hesitate. When product "A" is $800 and product "B" is $300, product "B" CAN'T be as nice! Or can it???

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    Quote Originally Posted by DFYFZX View Post
    What I want to know is how close to say, a Roval are they? I know ENVE, Reynolds, Easton, etc. are made in house and tested like crazy but Specialized obviously outsources theirs. Are these as good as theirs and they just mark them up or are these junk? That's what makes me hesitate. When product "A" is $800 and product "B" is $300, product "B" CAN'T be as nice! Or can it???
    I guess that's what we're all wondering. I'm going ahead and taking the chance on them.

    I guess I'm looking at it this way: "When product 'A' is $800 and product 'B' is $300, is product 'A' really THAT much nicer than product 'B'"? I don't expect these to actually be as nice as Enves or even Rovals, but if they're close, and hold up under my riding (which I'm not that hard on wheels, so I expect them to), I'll be happy for the much lower price.
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  139. #139
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    I just ordered a set Last years bonus randomly hit my account at 0200! I'll post pics when I get them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DFYFZX View Post
    I just ordered a set Last years bonus randomly hit my account at 0200! I'll post pics when I get them.
    Did you order the wide or narrow rims? I'm right on the edge of ordering a set of the wide rims.

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    What hubs you guys throwing on these?

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    duh

    never mind
    Last edited by freebiker; 02-03-2012 at 03:06 AM. Reason: dork

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  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    Had the Hans Damp PSC blow off the rear rim last night. Taped up and that was it. I installed this Nobby Nic two days ago without sealant with the Bontrager Rhythm symmetrical strip with a Stans valve. This morning I tried to get the tire to lose air. This is with less than 10psi in the tire. No air was lost when I did this.
    Was this with the narrow or wide rim?

  145. #145
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! Matte finish

    If you order the matt finish most likley the inside of the rim will be unfinished.

    If you plan on running these tubeless with just the rim tape make sure any exposed carbon has been brushed / sprayed with epoxy. Stans etc....will cause the CF to fail.

    I just ordered another pair with matte on the outside and gloss (finished) on the inside

  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    If you order the matt finish most likley the inside of the rim will be unfinished.

    If you plan on running these tubeless with just the rim tape make sure any exposed carbon has been brushed / sprayed with epoxy. Stans etc....will cause the CF to fail.

    I just ordered another pair with matte on the outside and gloss (finished) on the inside
    Never heard about Stan's hurting carbon. I'll send them an email, see if they can gloss the inside since I ordered matte. Thanks for the heads up
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  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    If you order the matt finish most likley the inside of the rim will be unfinished.

    If you plan on running these tubeless with just the rim tape make sure any exposed carbon has been brushed / sprayed with epoxy. Stans etc....will cause the CF to fail.

    I just ordered another pair with matte on the outside and gloss (finished) on the inside

    Thanks for the tip on the finish options.
    I'm ready to order same, but not sure about spoke count. I'm 210 and with normal wheel I would 32, but is it really important with carbon rim ?

  148. #148
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    I bought the wide, matte, UD finish...

    Going to throw a DT 240s on the rear and American Classic 15mm thru axle front. If you buy light rims you have to go with light hubs Probably Sapim CX Ray spokes...

  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfdog93 View Post
    Thanks for the tip on the finish options.
    I'm ready to order same, but not sure about spoke count. I'm 210 and with normal wheel I would 32, but is it really important with carbon rim ?
    I would still use 32 spokes.

  150. #150
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    Can anyone actually riding these Light-Bicycle Carbon rims comment on the durability? I have read posts from Haven Carbon owners of how bombproof their rims are, bike falls off a car at 70MPH, pinch flatted tubeless, etc. without any rim damage. Any similar stories?

  151. #151
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    Tire mounted

    Tire when on just like on my old Stan's flow rims...........
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails (Cheap) Chinese Carbon Rims?-gavin-007.jpg  

    (Cheap) Chinese Carbon Rims?-gavin-008.jpg  

    (Cheap) Chinese Carbon Rims?-gavin-010.jpg  


  152. #152
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    Looooong time ago 'soft spoking' was believed to give a more compliant ride.

    Not so much...

  153. #153
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    I think I'm canceling my carbon Roval order and building up a set of the 28mm AM rim on some AC hubs. For the price difference it's worth the risk.
    Any pics of the UD finish other than the company pics?
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  154. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    Tire when on just like on my old Stan's flow rims...........
    Ok, now how did you you just order the rims 10 hours ago and now have them delivered, built, and tire mounted?
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  155. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    Ok, now how did you you just order the rims 10 hours ago and now have them delivered, built, and tire mounted?
    Oops, hit return too quickly.

    Nice to see they played well with the Stan's tape!
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  156. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    Ok, now how did you you just order the rims 10 hours ago and now have them delivered, built, and tire mounted?
    ?

    I ordered additional rims

  157. #157
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    DeeZee: how's the finish/quality hit you? Impressed? Not impressed? How's the confidence level? I already ordered a set so I guess I'll see for myself, just excited to know more about them

  158. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    ?

    I ordered additional rims

    Did they cut a shipping break for additional rims?

    We are thinking of getting a couple of pairs.
    The Truth is out there. Here it isThe TRUTH

  159. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFYFZX View Post
    DeeZee: how's the finish/quality hit you? Impressed? Not impressed? How's the confidence level? I already ordered a set so I guess I'll see for myself, just excited to know more about them
    Per my buddy the same / better than his Rovals.

    Here is a zoomed in pic
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails (Cheap) Chinese Carbon Rims?-gavin-005.jpg  


  160. #160
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    Sweet!

    By the way, I messaged Nancy and she said she's going to get my matte/UD rims clear coated in the rim bed

  161. #161
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    Keep the pics and comments coming!!!...very close to pulling the trigger...
    Just ride and quit bit$hin.......Yeti SB5+..SIR9 SS...CD Synapse DA...

  162. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    ?

    I ordered additional rims
    Sorry. I was trying to be funny. Guess I wasnt
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  163. #163
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    Hmmm very tempting

  164. #164
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    Couldn't resist, just ordered a set of wide 32h/matte/ud.

  165. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    Never heard about Stan's hurting carbon. I'll send them an email, see if they can gloss the inside since I ordered matte. Thanks for the heads up
    Ditto. There is absolutely no reason Stan's would hurt carbon. At all. Urban myth.
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  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    Per my buddy the same / better than his Rovals.

    Here is a zoomed in pic
    DeeZee:

    Are those spokes straight gauge?

    I'll be going to Revo route; just trying to figure out how much these things will weigh with DT 240s 10mm hub, Revolutions, etc.

    Thanks!

    (I'm planning on ~400g rim, 280g+/- for the hub, and 125g for the spokes/nips, 25g or so for tape and valve. 830g total.)

  167. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    DeeZee:

    Are those spokes straight gauge?

    I'll be going to Revo route; just trying to figure out how much these things will weigh with DT 240s 10mm hub, Revolutions, etc.

    Thanks!

    (I'm planning on ~400g rim, 280g+/- for the hub, and 125g for the spokes/nips, 25g or so for tape and valve. 830g total.)
    DT straight gauge with alloy nipples

  168. #168
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    Why in gods name would you use straight gauge spokes?

  169. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by anomaly View Post
    Why in gods name would you use straight gauge spokes?
    Just checked my invoice and the work order indicates DB spokes

    The shop has some explaining to do........I need to pay closer attention to these things.
    Last edited by DeeZee; 01-30-2012 at 09:45 AM.

  170. #170
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    Greetings from Hong Kong, looking for more info for 29er carbon rims.

  171. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    Just checked my invoice and the work order indicates DB spokes

    The shop has some explaining to do........I need to pay closer attention to these things.
    Not by any chance the same lbs of the previous build with the cracked rim was it?

  172. #172
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    For the guys that have recieved rims in the states, how long did it take for them to arrive once they shipped?

    I don't see any reason why tire sealant would degrade the carbon/epoxy matrix, but I've got a few contacts that are M&P composites experts that will verify.

  173. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by figo View Post
    Not by any chance the same lbs of the previous build with the cracked rim was it?
    No another mental giant

    Coincidence or are most bicycle mechanics dopes?

  174. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    No another mental giant

    Coincidence or are most bicycle mechanics dopes?
    There must be many good places out there, but I started building my own wheels when I found out a highly recommended local wheelbuilder had used loctite on my wheelset 12 years ago

  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by figo View Post
    There must be many good places out there, but I started building my own wheels when I found out a highly recommended local wheelbuilder had used loctite on my wheelset 12 years ago
    I am almost there.........I do everything else except wheels. Rebuild hubs etc..

  176. #176
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    Can these rims be built with I9 hubs and spokes?

    Thanks

  177. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    No another mental giant

    Coincidence or are most bicycle mechanics dopes?
    I'm admittedly biased, but some of the smartest people I know I've worked with in the bike industry.
    That being said, since the majority of people I've met are not very smart, so by extension, most bike mechanics are probably not the top of the heap either.
    Back to the topic at hand, I'm almost curious enough about these to order a set and do some "destruction testing" on them under one of our, um, less graceful customers at the shop.

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  178. #178
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    Btw, although they don't have anything listed on their website under carbon handlebars (it says site under construction), they apparently do have some available. I emailed about them, and Nancy sent me pics of 4 different models: a riser (about 1.5 - 2 inch), a flat bar, and two styles of stem/bar combos. I asked about the widths of the flat bar, but they don't make them as wide as I was looking for, so I passed on them (they only make the flat bar up to 660mm wide, not sure about the riser or other bars).
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  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocwandrer View Post
    "Tow" is a noun meaning a bundle of filaments. UD is a noun abbreviation meaning unidirectional. unidirectional fabric is made from tows, which are by definition unidirectionally oriented. The tow size is much less important with unidirectional fabric, but still a mfg parameter.

    I see you edited your reply, but if i understood correctly, the issue is that T800 is a high, not standard modulus product in Toray product nomenclature.
    Bump +1 to you Roc on da Rep and to subscrib! God I love this type of detailed Tech Discussion!
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  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by sslos View Post
    I'm admittedly biased, but some of the smartest people I know I've worked with in the bike industry.
    That being said, since the majority of people I've met are not very smart, so by extension, most bike mechanics are probably not the top of the heap either.
    Back to the topic at hand, I'm almost curious enough about these to order a set and do some "destruction testing" on them under one of our, um, less graceful customers at the shop.

    Los
    You are right and in this case I AM THE DOPE.

    After careful review the spokes are DB

    2.0 x 1.8 DT Swiss

    My mistake was the last DB wheelset I had were Wheel Smith and has a more noticeable step down. These are more gradual.....

    My apologies

  181. #181
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    This is a very interesting thread I think worth following.
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  182. #182
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    so where is the best place to order wide rims in 32h?
    beaver hunt

  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    No another mental giant

    Coincidence or are most bicycle mechanics dopes?
    The ones I have come across are dopes. The thing is, they think they know everything, and seem to have a "holier than thou" attitude. I would love noting more than to support any LBS, if there was one adequate and competent.

    I'm in the same boat, building wheels is the only thing I don't do. I have the tools, have tried a couple times, but not quite there yet.

    Also, thanks for the info and pics of the rims

  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowdrifter View Post
    so where is the best place to order wide rims in 32h?
    just go straight to their website light bicycle-carbon frame,carbon rim,carbon wheel,carbon wheelset,carbon mountain bike,carbon road bike When I ordered a week or so ago, they were still working on the website ordering process, but you just send Nancy an email and she'll take care of you.
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  185. #185
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    Anyone know the ERD on the XC or AM rims? I tried emailing light-bicycle and never heard back. Also, will these work with I9 spokes?

  186. #186
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    Anybody get complete wheelset?

    Wide cabon hoops, Novatec hubs, and Pillar spokes?

    might be worth a try.

  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFXR View Post
    Anyone know the ERD on the XC or AM rims? I tried emailing light-bicycle and never heard back. Also, will these work with I9 spokes?
    I was told the ERD on the AM version I ordered was 603. Don't know about the XC...

  188. #188
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    Just ordered a pair. 3K, matte, 32 hole. Building them on AC hubs with DT Supercomps. Can't wait!
    Last edited by bquinn; 01-31-2012 at 03:18 PM.
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  189. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFYFZX View Post
    I was told the ERD on the AM version I ordered was 603. Don't know about the XC...
    I was told 602 on am rims, but i imagine either number will work.
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  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle View Post
    I was told 602 on am rims, but i imagine either number will work.
    Confirmed. Just got an email from Nancy this morning.

    ERD AM - 602
    Max spoke tension - 180 kgf

    I also heard back from my M&P contact. There is no reason why tire sealant would degrade the carbon/epoxy of these rims.

    For those who have built up these rims, how much spoke tension did you use?

  191. #191
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    Anyone order rims using their website? The shipping seems too low; like it did not calculate correctly.

  192. #192
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    So has anyone taking the AM rims off 6' to flat yet?
    beaver hunt

  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowdrifter View Post
    So has anyone taking the AM rims off 6' to flat yet?
    That is dumb on any bike.Well, trials aside.
    I am immune to your disdain.

  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    That is dumb on any bike.Well, trials aside.
    Ok, sorry.. 12" to a tranny.
    beaver hunt

  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowdrifter View Post
    Ok, sorry.. 12" to a tranny.
    We have a guy here that has been beating on them. He is a strong rider that rides like a bull. So far, so good.

    Thanks for getting me excited by the way.
    I am immune to your disdain.

  196. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    Tire when on just like on my old Stan's flow rims...........

    Are these the matte finish?
    Are you a road biker that likes hills? Try this Michigan Mountain Mayhem.

  197. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowdrifter View Post
    Ok, sorry.. 12" to a tranny.
    I think they're doing this on "RuPaul's Drag Race."
    Sorry, couldn't resist!


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  198. #198
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    Picked up a Highball today

    Hello

    Has anyone calculated the frame angles on this company's carbon fiber mtb 29er frame?

    Which namebrand frame is it similar to geometry wise?

    Carbon fiber hardtail 29er frame for $399! Crap, I just picked up a Highball frame today. For what I paid for the Highball frame, I could pick up this company's frame and be close to a XT level comple bike.

    Any thoughts/experiences on this company's carbon fiber frame?

  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by misooscar View Post
    Hello

    Has anyone calculated the frame angles on this company's carbon fiber mtb 29er frame?

    Which namebrand frame is it similar to geometry wise?

    Carbon fiber hardtail 29er frame for $399! Crap, I just picked up a Highball frame today. For what I paid for the Highball frame, I could pick up this company's frame and be close to a XT level comple bike.

    Any thoughts/experiences on this company's carbon fiber frame?
    Wrong thread dude

  200. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by mucky View Post
    Wrong thread dude
    Indeed. I will say that I have about 12 hours on one and it is awesome. Highball quality? Probably not.
    I am immune to your disdain.

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