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  1. #1
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    Will new Geometry make my life better? Old 29er vs New?

    So I have an old 29er, I have had it for years(2006), and I started riding with some younger guys that have full suspension bikes, almost everyone these days, and I keep up, but I am way slower on the down sections, and rutted root spots. Then I saw a video on YT XC Race Bike Vs Trail Hardtailand started to think... Maybe new geometry will make me faster? Or is it all the presentation because that guy on the nukeproof is better than I have or will ever be.
    I looked up that nukeproof bike, and tried to find the closest thing that I can get in the states, the X-Cal ?. I think full suspension bikes are a bit overkill where most of my riding is done, and I don't have full suspension money either.
    TLDR: Is new geo going to get me closer to keeping with my Full Suspension friends?
    Will new Geometry make my life better? Old 29er vs New?-trekx.jpgWill new Geometry make my life better? Old 29er vs New?-2018.jpg

  2. #2
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    Will it make your life better? Probably. Will it make you faster/fast enough to keep up with your friends? Not unless it comes with a better motor than you currently have. You haven't described your trails or where you want to get faster. It's been my experience that climbing is why people don't keep up, and the only thing that's going to make you faster climbing is if you grow stronger.

    The rest of the time longer, slacker bikes are just more fun to ride. It took a few years for bike designers to figure out how to make 29" wheels dance, and 2006 was definitely in the teething period. For me it was 2009-2010 before I rode a 29er that I wanted to ride again.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joules View Post
    Will it make your life better? Probably. Will it make you faster/fast enough to keep up with your friends? Not unless it comes with a better motor than you currently have. You haven't described your trails or where you want to get faster. It's been my experience that climbing is why people don't keep up, and the only thing that's going to make you faster climbing is if you grow stronger.

    The rest of the time longer, slacker bikes are just more fun to ride. It took a few years for bike designers to figure out how to make 29" wheels dance, and 2006 was definitely in the teething period. For me it was 2009-2010 before I rode a 29er that I wanted to ride again.
    "I am way slower on the down sections, and rutted root spots"
    What bike dances for you?

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    Started 29ers on a ~2009 GT Peace 71deg HTA etc moved on eventually to an ROS9 68deg HTA, better up and down IMO, way more fun overall.

    Edit: and I can put much bigger tires in the rear.
    ROS9+ SS
    ROS9 SS
    GT Peace 9R SS

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by madpanda View Post
    "I am way slower on the down sections, and rutted root spots"
    What bike dances for you?
    crap, sorry I skipped over that.


    Fuji Bighorn is working pretty well. it's 27+ so, not 100% how fair a comparison. My 'main' bike is a Canfield Riot - suspension so probably even less fair comparison. The magic numbers for me are reach and head angle. Head angles in the 66-67 degree range work; that was downhill bike territory in 06. Slack head angles and short stems handle better when pointed down and don't climb any worse, despite what we've been told all these years.
    Reach might or might not be as much of an issue; depends on how tall you are and if sizing up is an option. For me, I'm now realizing that bikes that are big enough are a new invention, like the last 4-5 years.

    Dropper posts are another game changer. Putting one on your current bike might or might not make sense.

  6. #6
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    Is new geo going to get me closer to keeping with my Full Suspension friends?
    Probably but how close depends on so many factors.

  7. #7
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    Is your niner steel or aluminum? What travel did your peace have?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by madpanda View Post
    Is your niner steel or aluminum? What travel did your peace have?
    The GT Peace is steel and rigid, the downtube/head interface doesn't allow much room for suspension fork crowns. The ROS9 is also steel with a 140mm Pike.
    ROS9+ SS
    ROS9 SS
    GT Peace 9R SS

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joules View Post
    crap, sorry I skipped over that.


    Fuji Bighorn is working pretty well. it's 27+ so, not 100% how fair a comparison. My 'main' bike is a Canfield Riot - suspension so probably even less fair comparison. The magic numbers for me are reach and head angle. Head angles in the 66-67 degree range work; that was downhill bike territory in 06. Slack head angles and short stems handle better when pointed down and don't climb any worse, despite what we've been told all these years.
    Reach might or might not be as much of an issue; depends on how tall you are and if sizing up is an option. For me, I'm now realizing that bikes that are big enough are a new invention, like the last 4-5 years.

    Dropper posts are another game changer. Putting one on your current bike might or might not make sense.
    I have a hardtail witn 120mm travel and 69° head tube. And a Canfield Riot. The bike pedals so well and I can keep peddling over bumps I have to cost over on the hardtail my hardtail is gathering dust. Point it downhill and not much can keep up.

  10. #10
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    FS is great, but you may only need to upgrade you’re geometry; a lot has changed in ten years.

    I just built a Guerilla Gravity Pedalhead 29er (65.5 HTA with a 140mm fork), it is the best hardtail I’ve ridden, would keep pace with a FS bike in the right hands, it certainly handles well enough for some serious downhill rowdiness. It would be a one bike quiver if I were a younger lad

    If you’ve been satisfied with a hardtail and you simply want a bike that is faster downhill, think about upgrading to a bike with a slack HTA and shorter chainstays; capacity for 2.6-2.8 tires is a “plus”.
    Last edited by Nurse Ben; 08-07-2018 at 04:56 PM.
    Lrg GG Pedalhead 29/27+
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  11. #11
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    That's two people with a canfield riot, is that the same as the current toir that is on sale?

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    You might improve your bike by modifying your fork.
    My 29 hardtail XC 100mm is good for me but i will get my Rockshock SID fork to 120mm to avoid being too slow in bad rocky sections and turn into mosquito food. Ask if you can it might be very affordable.
    I went to a demo 2 days ago the pedal strikes were a nightmare. Watchout for real BB height. Some enjoy a new geo, well if it is lower i prefer to keep my bike or buy an older 1 with clearance. I like the simplicity and reliability of my hardtail, i might stay away from a full suspension for many years, time will tell.
    A guy said he did what i am planning to do and was pleased with the results.

  13. #13
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    I been looking at a lot of "Plus" bikes, they work with both size tires? as for slacker angles, my ST/HT is 72.5/70.6 looking vs 72.3/69.5 2019 Trek X-Cal, so maybe I am looking for more trail like a Trek Stache 73.5/67.8 or a roscoe 71/68.3 ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by madpanda View Post
    That's two people with a canfield riot, is that the same as the current toir that is on sale?
    Yup. They ran into some sort of legal dispute over the name. I don’t think there was much drama, but they changed the name to be "riot" backwards and avoid any further issues.

    I have come to believe geometry trumps suspension, so yes, I do think a modern bike will allow you to go faster, and adding suspension will make you potentially even faster, and definitely more comfortable.

    Edit: spelling
    Last edited by Thaumaturge; 08-07-2018 at 11:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by madpanda View Post
    I been looking at a lot of "Plus" bikes, they work with both size tires? as for slacker angles, my ST/HT is 72.5/70.6 looking vs 72.3/69.5 2019 Trek X-Cal, so maybe I am looking for more trail like a Trek Stache 73.5/67.8 or a roscoe 71/68.3 ?
    I just read that the older Stache has a higher BB so i would avoid a new one but if you can try it you might like it. That is my plan a longer fork will make it more versatile.

  16. #16
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    Yea, adding more travel would make it more slack, but also raise my bottom bracket a little, at one point it will be too high. Let me know how it turns out adding 20mm to your fork height works out too.

  17. #17
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    I can't believe folks think a HT would keep up with a FS on the downhill. What kind of DH do you guys ride? I had my suspension locked out once by mistake and thought I was going to fly off the trail. I got to the bottom ready to throw my bike over a cliff and quit for the day and realized I was the idiot... Next run was great!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by madpanda View Post
    Yea, adding more travel would make it more slack, but also raise my bottom bracket a little, at one point it will be too high. Let me know how it turns out adding 20mm to your fork height works out too.
    The price i got quoted is so small you might test at 110 and just find out you like it or retry it at 120 a month later. I will probably wait 2 months to do it with the rebuilt. Without a car i ride it daily. Depending on your weight you might adjust with tire sizes. I just read about a new Vittoria 2.2.

  19. #19
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    Will new Geometry make my life better? Old 29er vs New?

    I only jumped into this thread because I mis-read the title. I thought it said, "Will new Geometry make my wife better?"

    Yes. Yes it will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wacha Wacha Wacha View Post
    I can't believe folks think a HT would keep up with a FS on the downhill. What kind of DH do you guys ride? I had my suspension locked out once by mistake and thought I was going to fly off the trail. I got to the bottom ready to throw my bike over a cliff and quit for the day and realized I was the idiot... Next run was great!
    It might be a matter of definition. Not every trail that loses altitude (technically a downhill trail) warrants a lot of suspension. On one particular local trail that is one of only two trails back to the parking lot, my PR on my rigid fat bike is only 8s slower than on my dual suspension bike over 3+ minutes. It's not exactly comfy on the fat bike, but it doesn't have to be slow.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    FS is great, but you may only need to upgrade you’re geometry; a lot has changed in ten years.

    I just built a Guerilla Gravity Pedalhead 29er (65.5 HTA with a 140mm fork), it is the best hardtail I’ve ridden, would keep pace with a FS bike in the right hands, it certainly handles well enough for some serious downhill rowdiness. It would be a one bike quiver if I were a younger lad

    If you’ve been satisfied with a hardtail and you simply want a bike that is faster downhill, think about upgrading to a bike with a slack HTA and shorter chainstays; capacity for 2.6-2.8 tires is a “plus”.
    Agreed with this. I went from an XC hardtail, similar geo to what OP is riding, to a NS Djambo Evo. 130mm fork and 65.5* head angle. With a dropper post, bike is incredibly confidence inspiring. I'm much faster in every direction and have progressed a ton.

    Now, with that said, I've progressed so much on the bike that I'm currently looking at FS options for a bit more comfort on chattery trails...

    But yes, new school geo is great. It certainly made mountain biking more fun for me.
    Patrick

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    Look for a used niner ros 9. That will let you try out a fast and fun trail bike. If you like it then great. If you don't like it you should be able to sell it for what you put into it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wacha Wacha Wacha View Post
    I can't believe folks think a HT would keep up with a FS on the downhill. What kind of DH do you guys ride? I had my suspension locked out once by mistake and thought I was going to fly off the trail. I got to the bottom ready to throw my bike over a cliff and quit for the day and realized I was the idiot... Next run was great!
    I do think FS beats hardtail on a rough descent. Otherwise descending heavy race formats would not be practically all FS bikes.

    But in many situations, and for many riders, the hardtail can be just as fast.

    As for your own story, I don't think it is a good comparison. If you didn't know your rear was locked out, you were still riding your bike as if it were FS. Descending fast on a hardtail requires a very different style. You can't sit (or even stand) the same as you can when you assume your bike is going to soak up a bump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pjames12 View Post
    Agreed with this. I went from an XC hardtail, similar geo to what OP is riding, to a NS Djambo Evo. 130mm fork and 65.5* head angle. With a dropper post, bike is incredibly confidence inspiring. I'm much faster in every direction and have progressed a ton.

    Now, with that said, I've progressed so much on the bike that I'm currently looking at FS options for a bit more comfort on chattery trails...

    But yes, new school geo is great. It certainly made mountain biking more fun for me.
    What about climbing?
    I love my XC hardtail 100mm and i could afford an other bike for more versatile use. Would you suggest a ((trail)) hardtail about 130mm slacker head angle? 29x2.4? I weight 145 pounds and power is not in my genes. Thanks

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjames12 View Post
    Agreed with this. I went from an XC hardtail, similar geo to what OP is riding, to a NS Djambo Evo. 130mm fork and 65.5* head angle. With a dropper post, bike is incredibly confidence inspiring. I'm much faster in every direction and have progressed a ton.

    Now, with that said, I've progressed so much on the bike that I'm currently looking at FS options for a bit more comfort on chattery trails...

    But yes, new school geo is great. It certainly made mountain biking more fun for me.
    Was your old XC lighter? I looked up that frame, are you running with your 29er wheels or new 650b?

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by party_wagon View Post
    Look for a used niner ros 9. That will let you try out a fast and fun trail bike. If you like it then great. If you don't like it you should be able to sell it for what you put into it.
    What should I pay for a used niner ros 9 ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by madpanda View Post
    What should I pay for a used niner ros 9 ?
    I would just skim pinkbike and ebay for completed listings. They will vary a bit since fork, wheels, and groupset can vary a lot. I think anywhere between $1500-$2000 is pretty fair for a nice build imo. The frame was pretty modern for it's time and can handle some pretty big tires for a standard 142 hub bike. Something like this would fit your trail bike needs well. https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2417546/

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    Looking at the DJambo that pjames rolls, I saw Max Tyre Size: 29”x2.3”, 27.5" (650B) x3.0” I might be able to fit a thicker 650b tire? maybe upgrade my fork to 650b with more travel, would that be crazy ?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by madpanda View Post
    Looking at the DJambo that pjames rolls, I saw Max Tyre Size: 29”x2.3”, 27.5" (650B) x3.0” I might be able to fit a thicker 650b tire? maybe upgrade my fork to 650b with more travel, would that be crazy ?
    Normally your safe to increase or decrease fork travel and keep the same wheel size by 20mm. A 20mm longer fork would make your bike about 1 degree slacker. Also going to a shorter stem will improve your roll over of roots and rocks.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by party_wagon View Post
    Normally your safe to increase or decrease fork travel and keep the same wheel size by 20mm. A 20mm longer fork would make your bike about 1 degree slacker. Also going to a shorter stem will improve your roll over of roots and rocks.
    I'm thinking more invasive, adding 40mm+ travel, but going to a 650B fork?

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    Thats not going to really help your problem of rolling over stuff. If your doing like 4 foot drops and stuff go ahead and just get the niner ros 9. The ros9 frame is built to last you 20 years and the geometry is good enough that bikes are still selling for a ton even though it's been discontinued.

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    Ritchey timberwolf is a bike you can find on closeout right now that would be similar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by party_wagon View Post
    Thats not going to really help your problem of rolling over stuff. If your doing like 4 foot drops and stuff go ahead and just get the niner ros 9. The ros9 frame is built to last you 20 years and the geometry is good enough that bikes are still selling for a ton even though it's been discontinued.
    With larger volume 650b wheels as well. I'm not taking 4'drops, or anything close to that, but more confidence downhill, and rolling over tree roots ? looking at used prices for those frames, I'm not thinking about blowing that much on a frame alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by madpanda View Post
    With larger volume 650b wheels as well. I'm not taking 4'drops, or anything close to that, but more confidence downhill, and rolling over tree roots ? looking at used prices for those frames, I'm not thinking about blowing that much on a frame alone.
    That $1500 is a complete bike with a fox 34, stans arch ex wheels, carbon cockpit, and xt groupset. The build is nice enough to sell the frame for $450 and buy a new fs frame if you wanted to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by party_wagon View Post
    That $1500 is a complete bike with a fox 34, stans arch ex wheels, carbon cockpit, and xt groupset. The build is nice enough to sell the frame for $450 and buy a new fs frame if you wanted to.
    1500 for a whole bike is what I was thinking, where is this at?

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    Quote Originally Posted by madpanda View Post
    1500 for a whole bike is what I was thinking, where is this at?
    The same link as what was posted above. https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2417546/ There were a ton of these on pink bike earlier in the summer but I guess they sold. This fork can be adjusted from 120-140 which would be perfect for your needs. If you need a S or M this would be a good way to go. https://us.ritcheylogic.com/us_en/wcs-timberwolf-bike

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    Quote Originally Posted by party_wagon View Post
    The same link as what was posted above. https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2417546/ There were a ton of these on pink bike earlier in the summer but I guess they sold. This fork can be adjusted from 120-140 which would be perfect for your needs. If you need a S or M this would be a good way to go. https://us.ritcheylogic.com/us_en/wcs-timberwolf-bike
    Yea, I was thinking new bike, but I am thinking on the tangent of getting larger volume tires (27.5 2.8") instead of my current 29 2.1/2.2 coupled with a 27.5" 140mm fork vs 29"/80mm. I did the math, and it would change up my head angle by almost 2 degrees, and keep my bottom bracket the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by madpanda View Post
    Yea, I was thinking new bike, but I am thinking on the tangent of getting larger volume tires (27.5 2.8") instead of my current 29 2.1/2.2 coupled with a 27.5" 140mm fork vs 29"/80mm. I did the math, and it would change up my head angle by almost 2 degrees, and keep my bottom bracket the same.
    Your bad at math.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 33red View Post
    What about climbing?
    I love my XC hardtail 100mm and i could afford an other bike for more versatile use. Would you suggest a ((trail)) hardtail about 130mm slacker head angle? 29x2.4? I weight 145 pounds and power is not in my genes. Thanks
    I'm faster climbing as well, but that I attribute to just being stronger now. The geo doesn't hold the bike back climbing at all to me. Once you get used to the steering with the slacker head angle its easy climbing, especially through tech. On the descents, the bike is so much more capable and confidence inspiring to me. I'm sure a better rider than me could ride my old bike down as fast as I can ride my new one, but yeah. For an average rider I think the new geo really helps out with confidence. Just feel a lot more planted.


    Quote Originally Posted by madpanda View Post
    Was your old XC lighter? I looked up that frame, are you running with your 29er wheels or new 650b?
    Yeah, my XC hardtail was lighter. Not sure how much lighter but probably 2-3 pounds. It wasn't a super light bike either. I originally built it up as a 27.5+ bike but bought a 29er wheelset as well and I just liked the 29er wheels a lot better.

    As for tires, the specs when I bought mine said 29x2.4 were the widest it could go. Thats what I'm using now (Bonty XR4s, awesome tires). Probably going to experiment with a 2.6 up front with the 2.4 outback.
    Patrick

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    Quote Originally Posted by party_wagon View Post
    Your bad at math.
    Well you're not informed enough to make that statement. My BB will be about .5" higher, so I may go with a shorter travel fork to keep things just right?
    If anyone wants to chime in with constructive conversation, I used BikeCalc.com - How to calculate Bicycle Wheel Size to get my outer diameters of the tires(green). I used my existing frame geometry (static, and in blue)
    The axle to crown of my existing Manitou tower pro fork, and the axle to crown for a Manitou Machete 27.5" fork(yellow)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Will new Geometry make my life better? Old 29er vs New?-29er-%5Bmotivator%5D.jpg  

    Will new Geometry make my life better? Old 29er vs New?-650b-%5Bmotivator%5D.jpg  


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    Unless it's really rough and chunky, I don't think a fs is going to make you significantly faster than a 'modern' ht. I've had friends (decent cat1s) tell me how much faster they were descending when they went fs, but racing last spring I switched between my ht and my fs bikes, and racing against the same guys my finishes were very similar, from strava times at race courses I'm probably only a couple of percent faster descending on the fs, - I was a lot more comfortable on the fs on the rough courses. When I started racing again, it was on an '07-ish Kona Kula dlx 29, when that frame broke I went to a '12-ish Raleigh Talus Carbon Pro frame (mostly the same parts), I'm pretty sure I'm faster everywhere on the newer carbon bike than the old Kona. I really like my fs bike (Bulls Wild Edge Team, nearly as light as my ht), it's fun and smooth and climbs great, but unless the course is really rough, I don't think I'm much faster on it than my old hardtail, just a little bit descending.
    If I were you, (or if my house burned and I had to get new bikes), I'd look at used upper end bikes from 2-4 years ago, you can find some great deals on 'steeper' head angle bikes now that 'slack' is all the rage, and unless you're doing heavier stuff with big drops the geo from 2-5 years ago will be fine. Giant XTCs seem to be very attractively priced on ebay, there are some FAST racers that ride those, I would probably most seriously consider getting a lightly used XTC, their Anthems also look like great deals used too.
    carry clippers! cut something off the trail every time you ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pjames12 View Post
    I'm faster climbing as well, but that I attribute to just being stronger now. The geo doesn't hold the bike back climbing at all to me. Once you get used to the steering with the slacker head angle its easy climbing, especially through tech. On the descents, the bike is so much more capable and confidence inspiring to me. I'm sure a better rider than me could ride my old bike down as fast as I can ride my new one, but yeah. For an average rider I think the new geo really helps out with confidence. Just feel a lot more planted.




    Yeah, my XC hardtail was lighter. Not sure how much lighter but probably 2-3 pounds. It wasn't a super light bike either. I originally built it up as a 27.5+ bike but bought a 29er wheelset as well and I just liked the 29er wheels a lot better.

    As for tires, the specs when I bought mine said 29x2.4 were the widest it could go. Thats what I'm using now (Bonty XR4s, awesome tires). Probably going to experiment with a 2.6 up front with the 2.4 outback.
    I am really liking the price point of the Djambo, especially just frame alone. I could wait around until they get back in stock, what other frames were you looking at when you switched to your Djambo?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimPacNW View Post
    Unless it's really rough and chunky, I don't think a fs is going to make you significantly faster than a 'modern' ht. I've had friends (decent cat1s) tell me how much faster they were descending when they went fs, but racing last spring I switched between my ht and my fs bikes, and racing against the same guys my finishes were very similar, from strava times at race courses I'm probably only a couple of percent faster descending on the fs, - I was a lot more comfortable on the fs on the rough courses. When I started racing again, it was on an '07-ish Kona Kula dlx 29, when that frame broke I went to a '12-ish Raleigh Talus Carbon Pro frame (mostly the same parts), I'm pretty sure I'm faster everywhere on the newer carbon bike than the old Kona. I really like my fs bike (Bulls Wild Edge Team, nearly as light as my ht), it's fun and smooth and climbs great, but unless the course is really rough, I don't think I'm much faster on it than my old hardtail, just a little bit descending.
    If I were you, (or if my house burned and I had to get new bikes), I'd look at used upper end bikes from 2-4 years ago, you can find some great deals on 'steeper' head angle bikes now that 'slack' is all the rage, and unless you're doing heavier stuff with big drops the geo from 2-5 years ago will be fine. Giant XTCs seem to be very attractively priced on ebay, there are some FAST racers that ride those, I would probably most seriously consider getting a lightly used XTC, their Anthems also look like great deals used too.
    Good point, I could transfer most of my parts to XTC, and get the upgraded benefit. What would be the cut off year, for the better geo on that frame?

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    Quote Originally Posted by madpanda View Post
    I am really liking the price point of the Djambo, especially just frame alone. I could wait around until they get back in stock, what other frames were you looking at when you switched to your Djambo?
    GG Pedalhead, Dartmoor Primal Pro, some of the Ragley frames, and a Kona (Big Honzo I think). I had it narrowed down to the Djambo and the Pedalhead before pulling the trigger on the Djambo because the frame was so much cheaper. RSD Middlechild is a new option too that looks pretty awesome. Nukeproof Scout 290 is another option but in my size (M) the reach was too short. Pretty long chainstays for a hardtail too.

    In the All Mountain forum there is an All Mountain hardtail thread. If you're looking for 29/27.5+ aggressive hardtails, lot of options in there to check out.
    Patrick

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    Get a fork with 20mm more travel. Get a head set slacker set like this. https://www.workscomponents.co.uk
    Oh yeah, you probably have a 1 1/8 head tube so finding that stuff will be impossible. Add 20mm of fork length max and remain on 29er tires.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by party_wagon View Post
    Get a fork with 20mm more travel. Get a head set slacker set like this. https://www.workscomponents.co.uk
    Oh yeah, you probably have a 1 1/8 head tube so finding that stuff will be impossible. Add 20mm of fork length max and remain on 29er tires.
    A 44mm headset put on around 2013, so I might be ok. I didn't know something like these headsets exist. Cane Creek has some Anglesets that might work for me.
    Last edited by madpanda; 08-17-2018 at 10:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by madpanda View Post
    I had a 44mm headset put on in 2013, so I might be ok. I didn't know something like these headsets exist. Cane Creek has some Anglesets that might work for me.
    Don't use the adjustable ones only uses the fixed angle ones. I use a bike with 120 fork and 68.5 headtube angle at that length. Great for a do it all trailish xc bike.

  48. #48
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    There's not new and old geometry... there are just more bikes built for different purposes now... more AM, trail, freeride, whatever... slacker and longer.
    XC bikes are generally using the same geometry they have since the first production bikes of 2002.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

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    Quote Originally Posted by madpanda View Post
    Good point, I could transfer most of my parts to XTC, and get the upgraded benefit. What would be the cut off year, for the better geo on that frame?
    I just did a swap for my kids bike, you can find the posts easily on the chinese 29er frame thread, and unless your fork is 100mm+, and your brakes are good, you'd probably be better off selling your current bike (or keeping it as the shed/rain bike) and just buying something complete with a low mileage drivetrain and great brakes (like XT), if you have old Avid hydraulics, you'll love the newer brakes. Also, if buying used, pay close attention to the wheel/hubset, a great wheelset often doesn't affect the price of a used bike all that much.
    carry clippers! cut something off the trail every time you ride.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimPacNW View Post
    I just did a swap for my kids bike, you can find the posts easily on the chinese 29er frame thread, and unless your fork is 100mm+, and your brakes are good, you'd probably be better off selling your current bike (or keeping it as the shed/rain bike) and just buying something complete with a low mileage drivetrain and great brakes (like XT), if you have old Avid hydraulics, you'll love the newer brakes. Also, if buying used, pay close attention to the wheel/hubset, a great wheelset often doesn't affect the price of a used bike all that much.
    I been keeping it current, it's 11sp xtr with magura brakes(well 1 is, I broke the other and its xt for the rear) I am digging the idea of adding a slack headset. That would bring the steerer closer to me, so I would need a longer stem to keep my reach the same? I am still toying with the idea of going with fatter 650b wheels. If I go with the external cup option on the headset that will add another 14mm to my stack.

    Where is a good place to get the works headsets in the US?

  51. #51
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    I am riding a bike that has, arguably, "old" geometry. I don't see what all the fuss is about, I don't have trouble keeping up with riders on newfangled slack bikes. people act like they are going to die because their head tube angle is one degree less than 68. bah humbug.

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    Quote Originally Posted by madpanda View Post
    That would bring the steerer closer to me, so I would need a longer stem to keep my reach the same?
    That would kinda defeat the purpose.

    The solution to this problem depends on specifically where you're losing time. Cornering traction, cornering technique, line choice, braking technique, clearing obstacles, etc.

    The reality is if I'm significantly faster than someone it doesn't matter if I'm on my hardtail or FS, they're still slower. I have a KOM on a local downhill section on my hardtail. So does modern geo and full suspension make me faster?... yes of course. I suppose some people are so slow they can't exploit the differences. If you can't get near the cornering limit of your current bike then a faster cornering bike won't make much difference. There's no question a better bike has greater potential.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    I am riding a bike that has, arguably, "old" geometry. I don't see what all the fuss is about, I don't have trouble keeping up with riders on newfangled slack bikes. people act like they are going to die because their head tube angle is one degree less than 68. bah humbug.
    What fork do you have? Travel?

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    That would kinda defeat the purpose.

    The solution to this problem depends on specifically where you're losing time. Cornering traction, cornering technique, line choice, braking technique, clearing obstacles, etc.

    The reality is if I'm significantly faster than someone it doesn't matter if I'm on my hardtail or FS, they're still slower. I have a KOM on a local downhill section on my hardtail. So does modern geo and full suspension make me faster?... yes of course. I suppose some people are so slow they can't exploit the differences. If you can't get near the cornering limit of your current bike then a faster cornering bike won't make much difference. There's no question a better bike has greater potential.
    You are right, and I am not saying I am at the limit of my bike, It's a couple things, the video where the guy on the nukeproof shreds, so "More Fun" (geometry) and I would like to be able to have more control, maybe pedal when I am going over rough sections (more volume?) I am getting more sure that I want to keep my current bike because of cost but more familiarity. So I am thinking of sipping the kool-aid with larger volume if I can figure that out, and a slacker headset, but the more I think about the headset, I don't think I will feel more confident with just a slacker head set, maybe a taller fork that will put me back a bit, and keep my reach the same.

  55. #55
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    Lipstick on a pig.
    Lrg GG Pedalhead 29/27+
    XMed GG Smash 29/27+
    Lrg Devinci Hendrix 27+ (Loaner)
    Pivot Shuttle 27+ (wife)

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    A new bike will always make your life better :-)

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puzman View Post
    A new bike will always make your life better :-)
    You never met my wife :-D

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    Quote Originally Posted by madpanda View Post
    What fork do you have? Travel?
    sometimes: rigid Vassago steel, zero travel
    other times, 100mm Reba.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    sometimes: rigid Vassago steel, zero travel
    other times, 100mm Reba.
    Yea same as me, although I haven't gone rigid in a long time. I rode with a guy who had a jaberwhocky a couple times, he ran SS, geo is similar to my motivator.
    Have you ever thought of getting more volume?
    I am really thinking that this is a real cheap way to sample the kool-aid
    BikeIsland.com - Bicycle Parts, Accessories and Clothing at Affordable Prices with Free Shipping
    I'm in Texas so I will have to pay tax, but still pretty cheap to try.

  60. #60
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    The current Jabberwocky supposedly has room for 3 inch tires. My rims are only 25mm inside, so balloon tires might be a bad idea for me. I hate the weight on tires too so I'll probably stick to sub-2.5 inch tires. You can still get 29x2.4 Chunk Monkey tires cheap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by madpanda View Post
    You are right, and I am not saying I am at the limit of my bike, It's a couple things, the video where the guy on the nukeproof shreds, so "More Fun" (geometry) and I would like to be able to have more control, maybe pedal when I am going over rough sections (more volume?) I am getting more sure that I want to keep my current bike because of cost but more familiarity. So I am thinking of sipping the kool-aid with larger volume if I can figure that out, and a slacker headset, but the more I think about the headset, I don't think I will feel more confident with just a slacker head set, maybe a taller fork that will put me back a bit, and keep my reach the same.
    I think having a frame with a longer reach so you can run a short stem will have the most improvement. I don't care how slack a bike is if it's too short for me to run a 50mm stem.

    A taller fork will shorten your reach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    There's not new and old geometry... there are just more bikes built for different purposes now... more AM, trail, freeride, whatever... slacker and longer.
    XC bikes are generally using the same geometry they have since the first production bikes of 2002.
    Agree with this but with the new categories, lines are beginning to blur. Think, like, Rocky MOuntain Element. It's a light, short travel trail=bike but it just as easily could be described as aggressive XC

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    I would say, definitely get the new bike if you think it would be fun. But i wouldn't get too bent out of shape about whether it's faster. I have a Salsa Horse Thief (currently set up as Pony Rustler with 27.5+ tires) and a Specialized stumpjumper 29er HT hardtail XC bike, and on different days, i could be "faster" on either bike (I find i'm faster on the hardtail when i'm fresh, a LOT faster, and faster on the trail bike when i'm tired or sore).

    Has anyone tried the Diamondback "trail" hardtails, like the Mason, or Sync'r? They look decent and like good value. And, just to say it, 27.5+ hardtails can be really, really fun One winter when my bike was in the shop, I used one of their rentals (a Cannondale Beast of the East) and it was awesome.

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    First off, go ride a few bikes and see if they really are faster for you.

    I wouldn't throw money at a ten year old bike, titanium of not, as there is simply no way to make that old bike new.

    The old bike has old geo, old specs, just dated in every way. Drop $800 on a fork, another $200 on an angleset, now you're $1000 in the hole and the bike still won't be what you want.

    If I got ten years from a bike, my wife would be ecstatic

    I can't say enough about the GG Pedalhead, but it's $1100 for a frame, so not cheap, but you get what you pay for.
    Lrg GG Pedalhead 29/27+
    XMed GG Smash 29/27+
    Lrg Devinci Hendrix 27+ (Loaner)
    Pivot Shuttle 27+ (wife)

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    For anyone browsing in the Future (happy ending)

    Well I drank the Kool-Aid, first with replacing my even older / less loved very light Litespeed roadbike with a heavier burlier flat bar road bike (many trim levels lower,) and liked it immediately, although I was "strava slower." (did I just coin a term?)

    So next was to continue the experiment and grabbed a second hand Specialized Fuse. It took a bit longer for me to enjoy it, including grabbing a cheap wheelset to put 29er tires on it thinking that was the problem (fuse has more pedal smack than I am use to.) I just needed a few more hours on it. I am just as fast on the smoother parts that my XC bike shined, although I know I am working harder, I am a ton faster on the rougher stuff! I switched to 27.5x2.8" chupacabras didn't know if they were any good but I love the name. Wifey is worried I am going to get a full squish.

    Two new steeds next to my still favorite bike.
    Will new Geometry make my life better? Old 29er vs New?-20180923_130945.jpg


    *I'm not wealthy I sold my old road bike for enough to finance this experiment, but I don't think I'll ever sale my motivator, I'm thinking rigid 29er/monster/gravel/cross bike.

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