Who wants to see a new endurance racer?- Mtbr.com

Poll: Would you be interested in a new Endurance Racer 29er?

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  1. #1
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    Who wants to see a new endurance racer?

    Let's assume a company using the VPP or DWL design was willing to build an endurance racer. Also, let's assume it would be aluminum (humor me here, I'm done with carbon...for now).

    Who would be interested in buying one and what would you like to see? My thoughts:

    Around 4" of rear travel and a 100mm fork
    5.5lb - 6 lb frame (Stiff frame is a requirement)
    Snappy/fast suspension design (maybe a linear curve and medium compression shock)
    70-71 degree headangle on new offset forks
    17.5"- 17.75" chainstays
    2.35 rear tire clearance for those who want beefier tires and a trailbike; not a racer. Minimum clearance of 2.25.

    I want a nimble yet stable bike that can be ridden in 24-hour races or simply long rides where you can climb 5,000-8,000 feet, 50-100 miles, and not be beaten up or weighed down too much. It HAS to be a really efficient climber without Propedal and not too twitchy but also has to be laterally stiff.

    So if someone were to come up with something like this, would you spend $2,000-$2,500 for this frame?

  2. #2
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortechcoupe
    1-1.5 pounds too heavy according to the Flyer's wish list.

  4. #4
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    I'd prefer DW Link

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder
    1-1.5 pounds too heavy according to the Flyer's wish list.
    yep, but isn't 5.5lbs for a 29er FS actually on the very light side unless its carbon

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    yep, but isn't 5.5lbs for a 29er FS actually on the very light side unless its carbon
    yup.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder
    yup.
    so then it probably wouldn't be as stiff a frame though.

    I'm just suggesting that Flyer weight suggestions are a bit off if he wants a stiff alu frame. Which is the real priority or where is the best compromise in between the two?

  8. #8
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    My powdercoated Titus Racer-X is around 6.3 and extremely stiff. I'd be happy with anything close (hydroformed/ovalized/ Ano/whatever it takes) that is reasonably stiff with 4 inches of travel. The 429 is almost 7.5 lbs. Let's make this more reasonable then and suggest 6.25 lbs...I am even happy with that. If my Racer-X was Anodized, I'd guess it would probably weigh 6 lbs.

  9. #9
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    Sounds like what Santa Cruz is building (Tallboy)
    ROTOR HEAD

  10. #10
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    Flyer, you have just described the frame I'm looking for.
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  11. #11
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    to the OP, have you ridden a 429, jet, etc...???

    I've ridden a 429 and jet extensively (is that the right word?) both could be an endurance racer. I bought the jet, price was better and with 100mm fork the BB is a tad higher then the 429 w/ 100mm fork. The 429 is a stiffer frame for sure. Maybe the new 2010 jet will be stiffer with the new tubing. I hope, as i'll be getting one due to the recall.

    You really need to ride some of the current offerings if you haven't yet. And i mean really ride them for hours or days on your trails.

  12. #12
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    Look, you're not playing my game here. A great pedaling bike can actually feel lighter and fatigue you much less than a mushy bike that is 2 bs lighter but I'd like it all- stiff enough, light enough, and damn fast...and yes, many of us are willing to pay for it. I am also hoping some companies see that there is a good market for this type of bike....a perfect endurance racer.

    Brutal comments- please forgive:

    SC Tallboy- carbon (some simply don't want carbon)
    Jet- too steep and not stiff enough
    429- a bit too heavy, though a good trailbike
    Racer-X- 3" only; not DWL or VPP (would prefer DWL)
    NEW Racer-X- carbon rear kills it for me
    Hardtail- forget it...been there...done that...not happy

    Now, you gonna play my game or not?

  13. #13
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    "jet- too steep and not stiff enough" So you've ridden one?

    with 100mm fork on a jet it relaxes the head tube angle a little bit. plus like i said the new tubing should be stiffer, so they say.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer

    I want a nimble yet stable bike that can be ridden in 24-hour races or simply long rides where you can climb 5,000-8,000 feet, 50-100 miles, and not be beaten up or weighed down too much. It HAS to be a really efficient climber without Propedal and not too twitchy but also has to be laterally stiff.

    So if someone were to come up with something like this, would you spend $2,000-$2,500 for this frame?
    I want Turner to produce one. I've actually been eyeing the Jet9 and new Specialized Epic 29er. I can set my V1 Sultan up to be my play bike.

  15. #15
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    Yes I have ridden a Jet, though not the brand new one. I want a frame designed for a 100mm fork right up front....and with a 70-71 degree headangle based on that A-C height. With the new offsets, a slightly slacker bike should still turn quite well with the given trail.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightySchmoePong
    I want Turner to produce one. I've actually been eyeing the Jet9 and new Specialized Epic 29er. I can set my V1 Sultan up to be my play bike.
    Dave Turner says he will build whatever you want, DW 29" Nitrous all the way to a DW Highline, IF someone can get $250,000 in paid pre-orders.

    That's only 100 bikes.

    Seriously. E-mail him.

  17. #17
    There's always next year.
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    I know I'm not "playing", but as a 429 owner now for close to 7 months, the weight thing get played out far too much. I just put mine on the crappy bathroom scale, and came up with a bike that's about 29 pounds--and right now, and that is with Stouts front and rear, and no weight weenie parts hanging off the frame. 25 pounds may be a pipe dream for a L or XL frame size, but I think I could get to sub 26 with enough money.

    I'd also wonder where the heck Pivot would cut 1-1.5 pounds off the frame AND keep the stiffness the frame is famous for. For what its worth, I know that riding my 429 has helped me lose 20 pounds this summer- to me, thats worth the 7.something pound frame.

    So really, to answer the question-- I don't think I would be interested-- My 429 has opened my eyes to how much a great, super stiff frame can help my riding style. I would gladly keep my 429 in exchange for an extra pound or two...

  18. #18
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    niner r.i.p 9? the mentioned 429?
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  19. #19
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    I am playing...

    my game. Here's my wish list:

    1. Real frame weight, size large (24.5" top tube, 19" seat tube) under 6 lbs with shock, seat collar, and all hardware.
    2. DW or single pivot is fine, 4" travel for 100 mm fork, should be able to handle a 120 mm fork. Suspension tuned for efficiency.
    3. Well engineered carbon is OK with me.
    4. Must have open front triangle with room for a traditional water bottle cage.
    5. Stable non twitchy geometry, I like a stable bike for endurance racing-it sucks to try and control a traditional race bike style geometry at high speed when you are fatigued.
    6. Standard threaded BB shell, and standard tube mounting of front derailleur, compatible with XX narrow cranks, and road front derailleurs-no direct mount, or E-type derailleurs

    Unlike most here, I have nothing against a well designed single pivot, anyone who thinks a single pivot cannot perform should take a test ride on a Yeti ASR. That said, the DW suspension is awesome, the problem with DW is the complex linkages are hard to engineer at low weight, and the frame is very complex: take a close look at the BB area of the Pivot 429, there is a lot going on, and it is hard to figure out how to make this lighter in weight.

  20. #20
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    The ASR was my first FS bike....familiar with the ride. I think this weight thing is a good challenge and I'd think carbon would be the way to achieve that but it would be pretty cool if someone could get close with an Alu frame. I do agree that a fast DWL design with a snappy curve would make up for any weight difference but the 429 has a lot going on down there with lots of bending tubes.

    We already have some good trailbikes. What I would like is a bit of innovation to create the best endurance racer possible. Hydroforming, butting, anodizing, and anything else you can achieve. If they can't hit 6 lbs, that is fine- get close but make the best pedaling bike out there. This bike could be a XC racer, an endurance racer, and a trailbike for many.

  21. #21
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    Given the going weight of some of the lighter FS frames out there that do meet your idea of a light weight FS bike that would be a good choice for endurance racing - how could you lose some of that essential weight? Maybe we need to think out of the box here and look else where for the weight savings. How might you set-up a bike in the lightest possible fashion, and still maintain all of the gears needed for a full day of racing? I've also been thinking about this - I end up looking at hardtails with the potential of the new Sram XX or hopefully new Shimano 2 x 10. Certainly a sub 24# bike that isnot carbon is appealing to me and I want to hear more about the HT and FS bikes that fall into this category and know how they got there, and how wel are they working / holding up? Good post.
    bikeone

  22. #22
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    Agreed- simply "shaving" weight is not going to work without compromising too much. I do think 6.25 lbs or 6.5 lbs can be done with Ano and a few old tricks (hydroforming) but either a new alloy or smart design could do more. However, I am willing to admit that a stiff 6.25 lb or 6.5 lb metal frame will be really impressive and reducing another .25 or .5 lb will really run into the realm of diminishing returns.
    Rather, a well-thought-out suspension design and geometry are more important than trying to get to that last quarter lb.

  23. #23
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    if you don't like the jet9(i love mine for endurance), try the new cannondales when they come out. lighter and stiffer than you asked for. maybe even the superfly100.
    Out riding, leave a message

  24. #24
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    Let Turner know what you want. They're small and they listen. I need more people taking up the cry (I've been begging for awhile, but as much as I love bikes, I can't commit to 100 framesets)!

    In the meantime, how about the new HiFi? No fancy linkages, but basically an aluminum Superfly 100 for a LOT less coin. And easy to up the travel in front to 120, I suspect.
    Whining is not a strategy.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder
    Dave Turner says he will build whatever you want, DW 29" Nitrous all the way to a DW Highline, IF someone can get $250,000 in paid pre-orders.

    That's only 100 bikes.

    Seriously. E-mail him.
    Honestly, I bet it would be easier to get 100 people to commit on an endura-Sultans than for a DWL Highline.

    BTW, I'd gladly put down 50% deposit to get the process kicked off for this frame.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by barrows
    my game. Here's my wish list:

    1. Real frame weight, size large (24.5" top tube, 19" seat tube) under 6 lbs with shock, seat collar, and all hardware.
    2. DW or single pivot is fine, 4" travel for 100 mm fork, should be able to handle a 120 mm fork. Suspension tuned for efficiency.
    3. Well engineered carbon is OK with me.
    4. Must have open front triangle with room for a traditional water bottle cage.
    5. Stable non twitchy geometry, I like a stable bike for endurance racing-it sucks to try and control a traditional race bike style geometry at high speed when you are fatigued.
    6. Standard threaded BB shell, and standard tube mounting of front derailleur, compatible with XX narrow cranks, and road front derailleurs-no direct mount, or E-type derailleurs

    Unlike most here, I have nothing against a well designed single pivot, anyone who thinks a single pivot cannot perform should take a test ride on a Yeti ASR. That said, the DW suspension is awesome, the problem with DW is the complex linkages are hard to engineer at low weight, and the frame is very complex: take a close look at the BB area of the Pivot 429, there is a lot going on, and it is hard to figure out how to make this lighter in weight.
    You are describing the 4" Leviathan. Still one of the top 29"ers in endurance racing after what 5-7 years in production? Did that thing really come out in 2002?

    What Flyer is asking for is a mini-link Leviathan type frame. Something like a 29" Flux. I think it sounds like a super idea, and I think there is a real market.

    If I had to buy something like this right now, it would probably be the Jet 9 (the kind that doesn't break) As a race bike, I think 3 inches is probably fine.
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  27. #27
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    So you're ruling out the Specialized Epic Marathon 29 why? Because of the brain shock? Looking at the spec it seems like it would easily be what you're looking for. Throw on a set of Edge wheels and you're easily right around 24 or less. This is if it's as light as promised (low 25 lbs for a medium I think).

    I understand your want of a light aluminum bike. I just don't think it would be very stiff. Then again, maybe you only weigh 140 or 150. In that case your dream bike may be stiff enough. I'm looking for the same thing but am quite a bit heavier. So perhaps the 429 would be "light" enough and plenty stiff. I'd love to try one out some day.

    As it is, I'm really looking forward to riding the Epic 29 I have on order.

    Cheers!

  28. #28
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    Man, I am all about this...even posted about the same thoughts back a while ago.

    I think that...

    3" is enough rear travel with a 100mm fork and a 70-71* HT angle, especially is it helps keep things tighter and lighter/simpler.

    The DW link stuff seems to be a design that requires a certain amount of 'stuff' to make it work and I am not sure if the lighter weight you wish for can be hit and still end up with a viable linked bike that is stiff enough, does not break, etc. Carbon $$$$ bikes not withstanding, like the tall boy.

    The new JET could be it. The new Epic as well. Even the new HiFi. I don't think that it needs to be a complicated link bike to get the performance you need, especially since that type of riding allows for some tradeoffs in plushness for pedaling performance and snappy-ness.

    I have ridden the JET, RIP, DW Sultan, Pivot, etc, and I still find the more traditional set up like on the Racer X, Lev, Big Mama, and so on to feel 'snappier' when I get on the pedals. Odd, but there it is. Even if the DW type stuff does ultimately perform better on ledges, etc, they always feel kind dead to me when I stand and pedal.

    I am always amazed how close my 3" Lev is to that mark you called out. Very close. But it needs Pro Pedal to play well. No biggie IMO.

    It will be an interesting year. I still think the love child of a Dos Niner and a Big Mama is the deal, but I cannot quite figure out how to get there.

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  29. #29
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    I weighed my Pivot Mach 429 (small) before I built it up and it was just over 7 lbs. That was with the headset cups, press-fit BB and front derailleur. Just for fun I weighed my RIP 9 frame with King headset and front derailleur and it was almost 7.25 lbs.
    My build is:
    Fox F29 fork 100mm
    American Classic hubs laced to Stan 355's
    XTR crank, 2X9 setup, 22-36 with Blackspire bashguard
    X-9 trigger shifters and rear derailleur
    Hope Mono Mini brakes
    Thomson seatpost and stem
    Ritchey 10 degree flatbar
    Schwalbe Racing Ralphs 2.25's

    That will probably come in at 25.5 lbs. Can it be lighter? Yeah I probably could get it close to 24 lbs.
    My point flyer is that the Pivot is an excellent all-arounder and do-it-all rig. Meeting most of your specs for a great-endurance racing machine (which I do alot of). It is stiff and weighing apples to apples I think the Pivot is right in there at around 6 lbs, minus the BB headset and front mech. Is there a lighter frame, yeah probably, but you are talking maybe a half a pound. Anything more and it will be flexy (JET 9).
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  30. #30
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    FWIW i have a friend with a 429 and it weighs 26lbs with pedals



    and here is a FS 29er frame that weighs 4.25 lbs. that blows the 6 lbs limit out of the water. but as always, there is compromise, the rear is not 4"

    https://www.sirenbicycles.com/song29.html

    i too want an endurance racer and i am considering this bike right here


  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by hobiesmith
    FWIW i have a friend with a 429 and it weighs 26lbs with pedals



    and here is a FS 29er frame that weighs 4.25 lbs. that blows the 6 lbs limit out of the water. but as always, there is compromise, the rear is not 4"

    https://www.sirenbicycles.com/song29.html

    i too want an endurance racer and i am considering this bike right here

    I agree with you (and have obviously put my money where my mouth is). The Song is more of a 'hardtail with options'. It is definitely a hella efficient ride, tho. It hauls major ass.

    Relevant to this thread is that Siren has in development a 4" bike. I'm stoked to see it.

  32. #32
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    You left the Intense off of your list, maybe for good reason.

    Doesn't really fall under any of your criteria, not a mini link bike nor 4 inches of travel...Ventana El Patron. I don't think it's being built anymore, but I'm sure they'd build one for you. Never ridden one, nor have I ever seen one for that matter, but Ventana has always had a reputation for being stiff, it is aluminum though.
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  33. #33
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    I'd also like to throw a leg over the Siren Song, that looks like a really sweet bike.
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  34. #34
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    your definition of an endurance bike differs from mine.

  35. #35
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    I don't get it

    I own a Niner Jet 9 with a Reba fork, DT Hugi 240 rear and Hope front hubs, DT 7.1 rims, Rampage tires, RF Deuce crankset, stem, and seatpost. XT cassette & front derailleur, X9 rear derailleur & rear derailleur, Easton Monkeylite bar, Shimano LX brakes, King headset, Crank Brothers' Eggbeater pedals, WTB Ti saddle, and bolt on grips. The bike weighs almost 29 lbs. It would be tough to lose a lot of weight on this bike: two pounds maybe with lighter tires, brakes, and rims. Otherwise, it would be a challenge to get much weight off. I have no clue how guys say they are building 25 lb FS 29ers.

    By the way, worry about dropping weight off your body and not the bike for endurance events.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightySchmoePong
    I want Turner to produce one. I've actually been eyeing the Jet9 and new Specialized Epic 29er. I can set my V1 Sultan up to be my play bike.
    I'm with you on this one.. I can't belive I'm saying this but why not the new Epic 29er? I am completely blown away with the Big S's line for 2010.. Because Banshee has a sweet 5in. AM 29er fully dropping sometime soon I would very much like to have a 3-4in light "Racer" type of ride in the stable...I do of course have a darn sweet V1 Sultan that is set-up "AM" (CCDB, 5.5 rockers, 120 Reba) do I go to stock rockers, 100mm fork, and the stock RP23, or do I really, really, consider selling my V1 for a Specialized? If you had told me even just 6 months ago I'd be THINKING Specialized I'd of laughed in your face...Hey what can I say the 2010 stuff looks pretty darn sweet........Flyer what is the main reason why your so dead set on "No Carbon"? CF.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    .... X9 rear derailleur & rear derailleur....
    Well, here is your problem...you are carrying an extra rear der!

    Seriously though, I understand where you are coming from. My Lev is just over 28 lbs and it would cost a lot of money to shed a couple of pounds.

    It is nice to begin with a lighter frame since it goes to your favor as you build it up. But it is not everything. Light wheels and a stiff chassis are HUUUUGE in comparison, but just as much is the pedaling feel of the bike.

    I really thought the Pivot would be it, but for me it missed the mark. I am thinking the new JET and the Epic are the front runners. I wish the JET was a bit less steep in angles and the Brain on the older Epics was fraught with issues. Still, 2010 is another year. We shall see. Or, what will the Racer X re-do offer? Likely more toward trailbike and less racer, but perhaps it will simply refine and improve, not change directions.
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by barrows
    my game. Here's my wish list:

    1. Real frame weight, size large (24.5" top tube, 19" seat tube) under 6 lbs with shock, seat collar, and all hardware.
    2. DW or single pivot is fine, 4" travel for 100 mm fork, should be able to handle a 120 mm fork. Suspension tuned for efficiency.
    3. Well engineered carbon is OK with me.
    4. Must have open front triangle with room for a traditional water bottle cage.
    5. Stable non twitchy geometry, I like a stable bike for endurance racing-it sucks to try and control a traditional race bike style geometry at high speed when you are fatigued.
    6. Standard threaded BB shell, and standard tube mounting of front derailleur, compatible with XX narrow cranks, and road front derailleurs-no direct mount, or E-type derailleurs

    Unlike most here, I have nothing against a well designed single pivot, anyone who thinks a single pivot cannot perform should take a test ride on a Yeti ASR. That said, the DW suspension is awesome, the problem with DW is the complex linkages are hard to engineer at low weight, and the frame is very complex: take a close look at the BB area of the Pivot 429, there is a lot going on, and it is hard to figure out how to make this lighter in weight.
    What you describe sounds a lot like a size Large V1 TNT Sultan. Have Low Volume can put on the RP 23 and have PUSH do a factory tune w/ the XC race shimming and you've got a stable frame that addresses almost all aspects (minus frame weight). I don't know that it'll accept XX (haven't tried) - but will be putting Q-ring 40/27 on my RF Turbines on mine so - in essence, same concept.

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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scotto
    I weighed my Pivot Mach 429 (small) before I built it up and it was just over 7 lbs. That was with the headset cups, press-fit BB and front derailleur. Just for fun I weighed my RIP 9 frame with King headset and front derailleur and it was almost 7.25 lbs.
    My build is:
    Fox F29 fork 100mm
    American Classic hubs laced to Stan 355's
    XTR crank, 2X9 setup, 22-36 with Blackspire bashguard
    X-9 trigger shifters and rear derailleur
    Hope Mono Mini brakes
    Thomson seatpost and stem
    Ritchey 10 degree flatbar
    Schwalbe Racing Ralphs 2.25's

    That will probably come in at 25.5 lbs. Can it be lighter? Yeah I probably could get it close to 24 lbs.
    My point flyer is that the Pivot is an excellent all-arounder and do-it-all rig. Meeting most of your specs for a great-endurance racing machine (which I do alot of). It is stiff and weighing apples to apples I think the Pivot is right in there at around 6 lbs, minus the BB headset and front mech. Is there a lighter frame, yeah probably, but you are talking maybe a half a pound. Anything more and it will be flexy (JET 9).

    Curious to know what this actually weighs in at.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    I own a Niner Jet 9
    So you know your bike has been recalled right?
    http://www.ninerbikes.com/fly.aspx?layout=recall
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenLightGo
    What you describe sounds a lot like a size Large V1 TNT Sultan. Have Low Volume can put on the RP 23 and have PUSH do a factory tune w/ the XC race shimming and you've got a stable frame that addresses almost all aspects (minus frame weight). I don't know that it'll accept XX (haven't tried) - but will be putting Q-ring 40/27 on my RF Turbines on mine so - in essence, same concept.

    Easily user servicable, plus killer customer service.
    Ding ding ding! We have a winner! The TNT Sultan is a great endurance bike. Weight is good (about 6.5 lbs), nice stable handling, good quality suspension. I just like how the mini link bikes (DW and CVA) pedal better, but that could be improved with a little love from PUSH.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    Let's assume a company using the VPP or DWL design was willing to build an endurance racer. Also, let's assume it would be aluminum (humor me here, I'm done with carbon...for now).

    Who would be interested in buying one and what would you like to see? My thoughts:

    Around 4" of rear travel and a 100mm fork
    5.5lb - 6 lb frame (Stiff frame is a requirement)
    Snappy/fast suspension design (maybe a linear curve and medium compression shock)
    70-71 degree headangle on new offset forks
    17.5"- 17.75" chainstays
    2.35 rear tire clearance for those who want beefier tires and a trailbike; not a racer. Minimum clearance of 2.25.

    I want a nimble yet stable bike that can be ridden in 24-hour races or simply long rides where you can climb 5,000-8,000 feet, 50-100 miles, and not be beaten up or weighed down too much. It HAS to be a really efficient climber without Propedal and not too twitchy but also has to be laterally stiff.

    So if someone were to come up with something like this, would you spend $2,000-$2,500 for this frame?
    Well, it isn't a DW Link design, but the new Hi Fi has everything else you are asking for. Linear feel in the suspension? Go Rumblefish which may even be more on the mark for your needs. (Slightly slacker head angle, slightly higher BB)

    Really, when you guys get a chance to ride the new Rumblefish, it will impress you with the linear feel of the bike, and all the swingarm issues of the past have been addressed. This bike is a nice rig.

    But if I were to race enduarance, and I was shooting for the podium at the events I went to, the Superfly 100 would be hands down the top of the list of choices for me. That bike flat out hauls and is sub 25lbs in my size stock. Probably could be safely shaved down to around 23lbs without a problem.

    And no- The fact that it is carbon fiber doesn't worry me.
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scotto
    I weighed my Pivot Mach 429 (small) before I built it up and it was just over 7 lbs. That was with the headset cups, press-fit BB and front derailleur. Just for fun I weighed my RIP 9 frame with King headset and front derailleur and it was almost 7.25 lbs.
    My build is:
    Fox F29 fork 100mm
    American Classic hubs laced to Stan 355's
    XTR crank, 2X9 setup, 22-36 with Blackspire bashguard
    X-9 trigger shifters and rear derailleur
    Hope Mono Mini brakes
    Thomson seatpost and stem
    Ritchey 10 degree flatbar
    Schwalbe Racing Ralphs 2.25's

    That will probably come in at 25.5 lbs. Can it be lighter? Yeah I probably could get it close to 24 lbs.
    My point flyer is that the Pivot is an excellent all-arounder and do-it-all rig. Meeting most of your specs for a great-endurance racing machine (which I do alot of). It is stiff and weighing apples to apples I think the Pivot is right in there at around 6 lbs, minus the BB headset and front mech. Is there a lighter frame, yeah probably, but you are talking maybe a half a pound. Anything more and it will be flexy (JET 9).
    Thats a damn good looking bike.
    Livin' the dream.

  44. #44
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    What you described is a Niner MCR, now go ride and enjoy....Otherwise, Jet Niner.

    For 29" endurance race bikes 4-5" suspension is ridiculous. On the new DW sultan,you would go so slow, that you are better off riding an aluminum 29er and taking naps to rest...
    Sit and spin my ass...

  45. #45
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    Try a Titus Ti

    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    Agreed- simply "shaving" weight is not going to work without compromising too much. I do think 6.25 lbs or 6.5 lbs can be done with Ano and a few old tricks (hydroforming) but either a new alloy or smart design could do more. However, I am willing to admit that a stiff 6.25 lb or 6.5 lb metal frame will be really impressive and reducing another .25 or .5 lb will really run into the realm of diminishing returns.
    Rather, a well-thought-out suspension design and geometry are more important than trying to get to that last quarter lb.
    Go for a 29er Hard Tail Ti - with a suspension seatpost - there ya go!
    Sit and spin my ass...

  46. #46
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    Nah, Hardtails are out, as are Softails. My Moots 29er was nice but I'm faster up and down on my Racer-X. We are not taking about dirt paths in Dallas, Zion.

  47. #47
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    I don't want to argue, I'd just like to know why you think the Sultan would be so slow?

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zion Rasta
    Go for a 29er Hard Tail Ti - with a suspension seatpost - there ya go!
    You're crazy. I have a Ti 29er, and I've ridden bikes w/ suspension seatposts. Neither has the real benefits of a FS bike.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zion Rasta
    What you described is a Niner MCR, now go ride and enjoy....Otherwise, Jet Niner.

    For 29" endurance race bikes 4-5" suspension is ridiculous. On the new DW sultan,you would go so slow, that you are better off riding an aluminum 29er and taking naps to rest...

    I have a light Ti 29er and an older Turner Sultan. I'm much faster on the Sultan on almost any condition except actual road riding. I've ridden the Sultan in several 100 mile races, 24 hour races and normal 2-4 hour technical XC races. It's not even close.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRAZY FRED
    I'm with you on this one.. I can't belive I'm saying this but why not the new Epic 29er? I am completely blown away with the Big S's line for 2010.. Because Banshee has a sweet 5in. AM 29er fully dropping sometime soon I would very much like to have a 3-4in light "Racer" type of ride in the stable...I do of course have a darn sweet V1 Sultan that is set-up "AM" (CCDB, 5.5 rockers, 120 Reba) do I go to stock rockers, 100mm fork, and the stock RP23, or do I really, really, consider selling my V1 for a Specialized? If you had told me even just 6 months ago I'd be THINKING Specialized I'd of laughed in your face...Hey what can I say the 2010 stuff looks pretty darn sweet........Flyer what is the main reason why your so dead set on "No Carbon"? CF.
    I've ridden Specialized SJ with the brain and was quite impressed except having to get off of the bike to adjust it. I love being able to adjust the damping on the fly and if S would make their brain adjustable on the HB it would be a no brainer for me. Otherwise, they havn't mastered it to the point where it is right for all conditions. IOW, if you have it set right for the downs, it is way too squishy out of the saddle. This is my opinion though and I can tell how many would be all over the new 29er epic except for the minor issue of the rear brake extension.

    As far as carbon goes, I haven't an issue with my Rush. This thing rocks in the rocks. I do use a mud guard to help with carbon protection. The carbon feels better to me than aluminum and if you are looking for light weight and still retaining stiffness, carbon really is the only way to go IMO.

  51. #51
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    Fred, carbon isn't completely out but I don't like all the inserts- in the BB, in the headtube, in the seattube, in each pivot location...everything has to basically be glued on. Plus, I don't like all the pits and gouges and having to protect the heck out of it. As a XC bike, I'd consider it again but I prefer aluminum, Ti, and steel. Specialized does nothing for me though. I'll go with Santa Cruz, Intense, Turner, Pivot, etc. before I consider a Specialized mountain bike. Roadbikes- they do draw more of my interest here.

    Quote Originally Posted by CRAZY FRED
    I'm with you on this one.. I can't belive I'm saying this but why not the new Epic 29er? I am completely blown away with the Big S's line for 2010.. Because Banshee has a sweet 5in. AM 29er fully dropping sometime soon I would very much like to have a 3-4in light "Racer" type of ride in the stable...I do of course have a darn sweet V1 Sultan that is set-up "AM" (CCDB, 5.5 rockers, 120 Reba) do I go to stock rockers, 100mm fork, and the stock RP23, or do I really, really, consider selling my V1 for a Specialized? If you had told me even just 6 months ago I'd be THINKING Specialized I'd of laughed in your face...Hey what can I say the 2010 stuff looks pretty darn sweet........Flyer what is the main reason why your so dead set on "No Carbon"? CF.

  52. #52
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    Ellsworth Evolve?
    I bought one in preference to a 429 after riding the mach4 & truth (couldnt get a test on the big wheels).

  53. #53
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    Please don't take this personally, edo- BUT that is one brand I will not buy- on principle alone. It will be a cold day in hell.....

    Anyway, forget about principle...it rides okay but compared to the new VPPs, DWLs and CVA, it feels a bit soggy...and harsh. I do agree it feels nicer than the Truth but that may simply be that 29er superiority showing up to play.

  54. #54
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    What's the Specialized Epic frame going to weigh? In comes with a carbon crown & steerer Reba. Should be light enough.

  55. #55
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    Lenz

    Leviathon is close, but the geometry does not work for me. The Superfly 100 and other Fishers are not available for purchase as frame only.
    Anyone who thinks they have a Pivot 429 with a conservative build that weighs under 27 lbs. is either dreaming, or has a broken scale. The Pivot is an awesome ride, but it is heavy. Also, I would guess there is a pretty good weight difference between your small 429, and the large I would need. I have ridden the Pivot, and it would make a great endurance racer if it were 1.5 lbs. lighter.
    Here is a trick for anyone who wants to shave a quick pound of their 29er: get a Lefty.
    I wish Yeti would consider doing an ASR Carbon 29er, this could really work for me. If Fisher would offer the Superfly 100 as a frame I would be on it.
    I am still considering going with the Pivot 'cause I like it so much, but it just seems so overbuilt for me, it would be my choice if I was a clyde though.

  56. #56
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    Why would I take it personally? I didnt buy it for you! Oh, it seems that there are a few people who dont like Ells on MTBR...mostly for personal/political reasons. I think we do that less in Australia & let the product stand on its own.

    I disagree completely on the way it rides compared to a Pivot but you should buy what you want not what I like...

  57. #57
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    If a well executed single pivot can be included

    How about a Kona Hei Hei 2-9?

    Light frame weight

    Travel feels > 3.5 inches

    Stiff chassis

    Can purchase as a frame and build using whatever parts and bits desired.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder
    1-1.5 pounds too heavy according to the Flyer's wish list.
    Pivot's advertised weight includes the bb bearings, and I believe the direct mount front derailleur. Subtract the weight for those, and it's not too far off the mark.

    Having said that, the overall ride quality of the 429 is soooo nice that you'd never notice the extra lb or so.

    The 429 is an excellent endurance racer.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by padrefan1982
    I know I'm not "playing", but as a 429 owner now for close to 7 months, the weight thing get played out far too much. I just put mine on the crappy bathroom scale, and came up with a bike that's about 29 pounds--and right now, and that is with Stouts front and rear, and no weight weenie parts hanging off the frame. 25 pounds may be a pipe dream for a L or XL frame size, but I think I could get to sub 26 with enough money.

    I'd also wonder where the heck Pivot would cut 1-1.5 pounds off the frame AND keep the stiffness the frame is famous for. For what its worth, I know that riding my 429 has helped me lose 20 pounds this summer- to me, thats worth the 7.something pound frame.

    So really, to answer the question-- I don't think I would be interested-- My 429 has opened my eyes to how much a great, super stiff frame can help my riding style. I would gladly keep my 429 in exchange for an extra pound or two...
    I'm with you! I, too, own a 429 and have ridden/raced it in both endurance as well as XC events since late last Oct. over some pretty rocky terrain with LOTS of climbing/descending and can honestly say that the only time I've ever noticed any weight penalty is when carrying it up the stairs.

  60. #60
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    I'm with Edo...

    I love my Ellsworth Evolve and could care less about personal preference of anyone on MTBR or otherwise...I rode a lot of bikes and chose this because it was plush, pedaled well, and I like the anodized aluminum as it's durable, worry free, and most importantly perfect for me. Mine is an even 26lbs. I think you're going about it the right way though, hopefully you'll find something that fit's and works perfectly for you. Good luck!

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by barrows
    Leviathon is close, but the geometry does not work for me. The Superfly 100 and other Fishers are not available for purchase as frame only.
    Anyone who thinks they have a Pivot 429 with a conservative build that weighs under 27 lbs. is either dreaming, or has a broken scale. The Pivot is an awesome ride, but it is heavy. Also, I would guess there is a pretty good weight difference between your small 429, and the large I would need. I have ridden the Pivot, and it would make a great endurance racer if it were 1.5 lbs. lighter.
    Here is a trick for anyone who wants to shave a quick pound of their 29er: get a Lefty.
    I wish Yeti would consider doing an ASR Carbon 29er, this could really work for me. If Fisher would offer the Superfly 100 as a frame I would be on it.
    I am still considering going with the Pivot 'cause I like it so much, but it just seems so overbuilt for me, it would be my choice if I was a clyde though.

    Not sure what the geo of the Lenz is that bothers ya, but there are some changes in store for the Lev series...shorter chainstays and slacker HT angles IIRC. Plus, there is always full custom with Devin.

    I do like that Yeti. Too bad they do not do big wheels. The ASR with 3ish"s of travel would be a nice alternative in a 29er. I have not looked at that bike much...very similar to the Racer X in many ways.
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  62. #62
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    Blacksheep ST Highroller. Long travel, 4", softail, whatever geometry you want, lightweight (don't kow specifics), reported stiff, and low maintenace.
    Don't know much about FS bikes, so curious to hear what you guys think of this kind of ride for endurance racing.
    I am interested in it for travel reasons-font and rear triangles separate and the whole thing fits in an S&S travel case, and on a plane as legal luggage.

  63. #63
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    Good point,

    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder
    What's the Specialized Epic frame going to weigh? In comes with a carbon crown & steerer Reba. Should be light enough.
    This is turning out to be a great thread, for the record there was no bigger Special-Ed hater than myself over the past 6-8 years, however I MUST give credit when it is due..The 29er stuff from them is very very nice, mostly because of the new design (or the change in the linkage). Would i walk into a LBS and pay full retail for one? The new 2010 Jet looks to be a very sweet ride..I live in New England and the thought of carbon is abit scary but not at all out of the question..The Santa Cruz Tallboy sure looks to be a winner...I also have said many many times that the Evolve is a bike I'd love to swing a leg over just once, but like Flyer all the problems with TE worries me..Not to say I'd NEVER own one but all that TE BS does and would concern me...From what I've read about the new Specialized stuff alot are saying that it's because of the brain that these bikes ride so plush...CF.

  64. #64
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    Not getting into an Ellsworth debate here. I buy on the bike's qualities and on comany reputation and ethics as well...that is just me. I don't compromise there so it is what it is....maybe I'm too old-fashioned- same reason I will not buy from Beyond Bikes. Anyway, enough of my personal issues...I don't want to debate that since that arise from my personal set of values.

    I'd still prefer a DWL or VPP design. On a 4" bike, the chainstays can easily be made under 18". I don't want them shorter than 17.5. I'd like to keep the front tracking well and not hard to keep down. This is not going to be a techy-trail-only bike. It has to do everything well but above all, it has to pedal well and be stable at speed and I'd rather not have a 42" wheelbase with a super-short chainstay.

    I think Santa Cruz's Tallboy has the geometry really close (on paper anyway). How stiff it is (and stays over time) and how well it climbs remains to be seen. I also don't really see myself paying US-made prices for an overseas frame. I know what the cost differential is- with materials and labor. I am assuming it is made in China and Taiwan- apologies if it isn't and I take back what I said if it is made here. In that case, I'll gladly pay the $2,400.

  65. #65
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    I do agree that Specialized's new stuff is the best yet from them. I still think there are too many better choices for the money, especially given the markups on their high-end bikes.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    I do agree that Specialized's new stuff is the best yet from them. I still think there are too many better choices for the money, especially given the markups on their high-end bikes.
    Well done Flyer I completely agree............CF.

  67. #67
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    What about the voodoo canzo or the salsa big mama?

    I think you could over think this a lot, all of the frames here are within a pound of each other, and are pretty nice.

    For stiffness, you could get a bolt on rear hub, I hear that can help stiffen a FS frame up.

    I think 3" of travel is probably lots for an endurance bike, I think the leviathan, Jet 9 or racer X is probably a great enduro bike. Or you could get a custom one built.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by crepitus
    Blacksheep ST Highroller. Long travel, 4", softail, whatever geometry you want, lightweight (don't kow specifics), reported stiff, and low maintenace.
    Don't know much about FS bikes, so curious to hear what you guys think of this kind of ride for endurance racing.
    I am interested in it for travel reasons-font and rear triangles separate and the whole thing fits in an S&S travel case, and on a plane as legal luggage.
    Too long-travel for a softail, IMO. It's the Darryl Funk design...
    http://www.funkcycles.com/29ers.htm

  69. #69
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    I'm still hoping Giant releases a 29er Anthem that has ~6lbs. frame weight.

  70. #70
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    I haven't ridden any of the options being debated, but every time I ride my 3" Lev for more than six hours I'm reminded that there is nothing I would improve about it's current form.

    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/uv09EzeLMljO52nC6H0wsA?authkey=Gv1sRgCPHLvrud9oOOX g&feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh5.ggpht.com/_A06QdYL6xw8/SmD3ALkI2YI/AAAAAAAAGao/lEqQWMB0-YI/s800/DSCI0004.JPG" /></a>

    I'd gladly lighten it up if someone gave me a grand to do so, but right now it's puuurfect.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    I know what the cost differential is- with materials and labor. I am assuming it is made in China and Taiwan- apologies if it isn't and I take back what I said if it is made here. In that case, I'll gladly pay the $2,400.
    Aside from Trek, and only for some of their highest-end carbon frames, who in the US builds monocoque frames? Serotta does, but they charge something like $6,000 for the privelage of owning one. I think Taiwan is where it's at as far as carbon bicycles are concerned,
    and I'm also under the impression that Taiwanese bike industry workers are paid well whether they are welders, machinists, or working with carbon.

    China is likely a different story, and I think it's unfair to lump the two together.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder
    Aside from Trek, and only for some of their highest-end carbon frames, who in the US builds monocoque frames? Serotta does, but they charge something like $6,000 for the privelage of owning one. I think Taiwan is where it's at as far as carbon bicycles are concerned,
    and I'm also under the impression that Taiwanese bike industry workers are paid well whether they are welders, machinists, or working with carbon.

    China is likely a different story, and I think it's unfair to lump the two together.
    No, I think you got it backwards. Trek and domestic custom shops aside, China does most of the carbon. There's horrible chinese carbon, but there is also some that is among the best available anywhere. Taiwan does most of the aluminium (again, there is also bad in with the good and decent).

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zion Rasta
    On the new DW sultan,you would go so slow, that you are better off riding an aluminum 29er and taking naps to rest...
    Wow, I must really rock! I've won two major 100 mile mtb races on Sultans -- both versions. Although I'm in the "Old Guy" category, I did win both by over two hours, and placed in the top 5 overall.

    I gotta get a new bike so I can take longer naps!
    Whining is not a strategy.

  74. #74
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    Please do

    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo
    Wow, I must really rock! I've won two major 100 mile mtb races on Sultans -- both versions. Although I'm in the "Old Guy" category, I did win both by over two hours, and placed in the top 5 overall.

    I gotta get a new bike so I can take longer naps!
    I wish you would take longer naps. Really, really, Really long naps, so maybe I could finish within @ a day or so of your time out there @ CCP

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pho'dUp
    I'm still hoping Giant releases a 29er Anthem that has ~6lbs. frame weight.
    Not this year. Maybe next. They just introduced their 1st 9ers this year...

    What I want to see is a FS 29er under $2k that has decent components (IE float r/rp3 and a decent fork.)
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  76. #76
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    hmmm, weird...

    I would say Ellsworth Evolve, and I bought it from Beyond Bikes, but that pretty much just destroyed any semblance of my credibility...where I live, the nearest Ells dealer is over 2 hours away so no demos, and I basically stole the build from them at just under $3k....

    All joking aside, I have done enduro races on the Evolve - plush, stiff when pedaling, chews up techy singletrack, etc. The frame feels very stiff and holds its line very well....if I have one complaint, it's a bit slower through the twisty turns found in XC racing than a traditional 26"er and I'd like my own personal build to have a few lighter components (wheelset/tires)....

    I'm with the poster from Aus....Ells has a terrible rep on mtbr which leads me to believe that too many people forget to consider them and the fact that they make a damn good bike.

    just my $.02

  77. #77
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    So here is my last pitch for the Pivot as "in the ballpark" weight contender. Anymore posts about this from me and everyone will think I'm David Copperfield posting under a different profile.
    With the new SRAM XX coming out and all the great light wheelsets to choose from I really think a Mach 429 can be built up to come in under 25lbs. And that is not using some stupid light parts either.
    I could probably shave a pound off my present rig by using the new SRAM XX group, some Hope Race brakes and maybe a Stan's ZTR Race wheelset. Yeah, alot of cabbage has to be used to get there, but my point is, it can be done. This frame is solid and dialed for me, I can't see going to another. It works for me and the riding/racing I do.
    That's all I got. Really I just wanted to throw a jab a DC.
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  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoadventures
    I agree with you (and have obviously put my money where my mouth is). The Song is more of a 'hardtail with options'. It is definitely a hella efficient ride, tho. It hauls major ass.

    Relevant to this thread is that Siren has in development a 4" bike. I'm stoked to see it.
    I am SO looking forward to seeing what Brendan has to offer in the FS 29 department...

    Back to this (great and interesting) thread - I would LOVE a bike in the ballpark of what flyer is suggesting. I've been thinking recently of the next bike and I think flyer's specs are pretty close to what I'm after... Any racing I do these days tend to be in the endurance type category (50km+ in AU) so the specs fit. I'm not keen on carbon frames because it will need to last up to 5 years (I just can't afford to update every couple of years without selling a child)...

    However, I'm open to other suspension designs - as long as the design is efficient and fulfils its intended purpose then great...
    My LBS | Riding this and this

  79. #79
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    Don't worry, most don't worry about what DC says.

    Re: the carbon FS bikes- Tallboy and Superfly 100. I realize the Tallboy isn't out yet but has anyone ridden the Superfly and checked out the stiffness?

    Is Trek the only company that makes their carbon frames in the US? Does Specialized not do that as well? I know most are made in Taiwan but surely someone besides Trek makes them here. Maybe not.

  80. #80
    jms
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    I voted "no"

    I'm one of the few to take a pass and vote "no", I already have a new endurance racer - it's this Kish Hardtail Ti 29er, purpose built for me, for endurance racing. Here's what I did and why I voted "no":

    Designed @ 100mm travel "old" 38mm [shorter] offset Reba = longer travel and high speed stability. This fork has gotten an undeserved reputation for being "flexy" and it's not, with a laterally rigid front wheel, like a DT 190/Edge XC front wheel. LOL, this obsession with frame "stiffness" [see 1 1/2" lower HS bearings] is pointless unless the rim is more torsion-ally rigid than a warm corn tortilla [thank you Mikesee].

    72 degree HT/72.5 ST angle/17.5" chainstays/12.25 BB height/24.125 EFL top tube/42.3" wheelbase = very nimble steering off center, very stable on center [straight ahead]. The 100mm travel fork also increases my margin for error at high speed. It climbs and descends tight terrain with a discernible reduction in upper body fatigue over the bikes I've raced previously.

    A 5" head tube and a heavily sloping top tube. The longer head tube spaces the headset bearings further apart and cuts down the unsupported length of the steerer [the part above the headset], and with it, a bunch of headset stack washers. Ta Da, no more rocking and creaking from the [King] headset. Seems to me, front end stiffness started becoming an issue as head tubes have gotten progressively shorter over the years. The heavily sloping top tube cuts weight, increases the frame stiffness, and allows me to use a long Ti seatpost to damp trail chatter. The seat tube is 1 3/8" but, I bush it down to accept a more compliant 27.2 post [smaller diameter than 30.9 = more supple]. Think 29" wheeled WTB Phoenix. It's comfortable enough to get me through100 mile races

    A 68mm bottom bracket shell. Combined with a 108/111mm square taper BB and Middleburn cranks [20/30/40] my chains, cogs and chainrings last forever. There is a noticeable decrease is bearing drag, and
    I don't have an issue with chain suck in the mud or when the chain gets dry, during a race, because I'm not sawing away at my drivetrain with a wide chainline - which bends the chain or runs it at a harsher angle across the chainrings, which equals more friction, drag, wear and chainsuck. 9 speed thumbshifters [Paul's mounts w/Dura Ace bar cons] are lighter, simpler, cheaper, and give me a friction option if I bend a derailleur during a race. Gore Tex sealed cables are a wonderful addition to the drivetrain too.

    Three water bottle cage mounts. Sorry, but it's laughable to me that "designers" are relying, almost forcing, people to use hydration packs on bikes ostensibly designed for endurance racing. Think bottle cages are a quibble? Do some racing in hot weather, with minimal aid stations, then get back to me on that.

    Wheels and tires: DT hubs - low drag. Arch or Edge rims - light, stiff and durable. Stan's @ tires and low tire pressure are almost mandatory for me. The advantages of tubeless wheels/tires have helped level the playing field with the FS bikes.

    My bike weighs an honest 22.5 - 24 lbs, depending on my wheel and tire choice. No tricks or gimmicks. That's with bar ends, the lock-out switch for the fork, 2 stainless bottle cages [carbon cages are launchers], a comfortable saddle [Fizik Gobi], a quick link taped to the frame, and durable pedals [Ti Atac's].

    As much as I like my RX 29, I don't ride/race it that often these days because this long travel 29er HT works better for me.
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    Last edited by jms; 09-16-2009 at 05:55 PM.

  81. #81
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    Great that it works for you. Many don't like hardtails or can't ride hardtails past 2-3 hours on rougher trails. I didn't like riding my Moots Ti past 3 hrs or so and it used to make my IT Band act up as well. I would have kept it for shorter rides but I needed the money so off it went. So while many do as you do and it makes sense, many do not want to or can't. It is for those guys that the Tallboy and Superfly have been introduced and it would be good to have another one in the fray soon. I think it will sell extremely well, and we can partially judge that by how the Tallboy and Superfly do.

  82. #82
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    Not sure of the limitations of the material, but I really wonder if a Scandium built front triangled Jet 9 Niner would get you under the weight limit that your seek? Just a thought, as the AIR 9 weighs a svelte 3.1 pounds. Anyone know what a EMD weighs?

  83. #83
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    I am surprised there has not been more mention of the Levithan???? 3" or 4" would do the trick! Light, high bottom bracket and slack with a Reba 100 or a Fox 100 with a Ventana Race if needed.....add propedal and it is like a different bike, with no bob at all and the best part it comes in at 25.5 lbs without xtr! RRR

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Boy
    Curious to know what this actually weighs in at.
    25.59 lbs.
    Trying to post a pic but for some reason everything is failing.
    Here's a link to the picture file:
    http://wnymbro.com/gallery/v/Scott/
    Last edited by Scotto; 09-17-2009 at 05:23 PM.
    Ride it, donít write about it!

  85. #85
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    Here's a new player to the game. It's not the DW-Link but I betcha it's pretty racey and light. I'm definitely gunna be looking at it.
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    Ride it, donít write about it!

  86. #86
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    Looks like a Titus....is it the 4" Rockstar or something else? I have the 3" Titus and while it is nice, I'd prefer a DWL or possibly VPP myself. The new Gary Fisher also looks light and fast and I'm sure it will sell well but it isn't for me. However, it has good geometry and around a 4.5 lbs frame...probably the most interesting GF I have seen yet.
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  87. #87
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    Salsa Dos Niner

    Much like the Siren....

    I've done a number of the NUE 100 milers and I'm really happy w/ my Dos Niner. While it doesn't have the cushion of the SuperFly 100 (at least I'm assuming it doesn't), I find it pretty comfortable over a typical 100 race - roads, rocks and roots.

    One fairly minor downer is the cosmetics; it just doesn't hold paint very well.

    Mine weighs in at 25.8 lbs with pedals, a WTB Weirwolf 2.55 on the front and a Maxxis Ignitor on the back.

    Just one guy's opinion.

  88. #88
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    Man this sh!t just never ends,

    Quote Originally Posted by Scotto
    Here's a new player to the game. It's not the DW-Link but I betcha it's pretty racey and light. I'm definitely gunna be looking at it.
    This is killing me I just can not take it anymore...bikes, bikes, bikes, it just never stops...New this and new that and now I-bike starts on Monday? I am really going to need to up my dose on my meds this week.. I really like this frame....Well done Titus but now I ask you, where is the 5in Motolight? .....CF.

  89. #89
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    Funk LaRuta.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfkbike2
    Funk LaRuta.
    Those are really interesting looking bikes!

  91. #91
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    Nice...

    Quote Originally Posted by jms
    I'm one of the few to take a pass and vote "no", I already have a new endurance racer - it's this Kish Hardtail Ti 29er, purpose built for me, for endurance racing. Here's what I did and why I voted "no":

    Designed @ 100mm travel "old" 38mm [shorter] offset Reba = longer travel and high speed stability. This fork has gotten an undeserved reputation for being "flexy" and it's not, with a laterally rigid front wheel, like a DT 190/Edge XC front wheel. LOL, this obsession with frame "stiffness" [see 1 1/2" lower HS bearings] is pointless unless the rim is more torsion-ally rigid than a warm corn tortilla [thank you Mikesee].

    72 degree HT/72.5 ST angle/17.5" chainstays/12.25 BB height/24.125 EFL top tube/42.3" wheelbase = very nimble steering off center, very stable on center [straight ahead]. The 100mm travel fork also increases my margin for error at high speed. It climbs and descends tight terrain with a discernible reduction in upper body fatigue over the bikes I've raced previously.

    A 5" head tube and a heavily sloping top tube. The longer head tube spaces the headset bearings further apart and cuts down the unsupported length of the steerer [the part above the headset], and with it, a bunch of headset stack washers. Ta Da, no more rocking and creaking from the [King] headset. Seems to me, front end stiffness started becoming an issue as head tubes have gotten progressively shorter over the years. The heavily sloping top tube cuts weight, increases the frame stiffness, and allows me to use a long Ti seatpost to damp trail chatter. The seat tube is 1 3/8" but, I bush it down to accept a more compliant 27.2 post [smaller diameter than 30.9 = more supple]. Think 29" wheeled WTB Phoenix. It's comfortable enough to get me through100 mile races

    A 68mm bottom bracket shell. Combined with a 108/111mm square taper BB and Middleburn cranks [20/30/40] my chains, cogs and chainrings last forever. There is a noticeable decrease is bearing drag, and
    I don't have an issue with chain suck in the mud or when the chain gets dry, during a race, because I'm not sawing away at my drivetrain with a wide chainline - which bends the chain or runs it at a harsher angle across the chainrings, which equals more friction, drag, wear and chainsuck. 9 speed thumbshifters [Paul's mounts w/Dura Ace bar cons] are lighter, simpler, cheaper, and give me a friction option if I bend a derailleur during a race. Gore Tex sealed cables are a wonderful addition to the drivetrain too.

    Three water bottle cage mounts. Sorry, but it's laughable to me that "designers" are relying, almost forcing, people to use hydration packs on bikes ostensibly designed for endurance racing. Think bottle cages are a quibble? Do some racing in hot weather, with minimal aid stations, then get back to me on that.

    Wheels and tires: DT hubs - low drag. Arch or Edge rims - light, stiff and durable. Stan's @ tires and low tire pressure are almost mandatory for me. The advantages of tubeless wheels/tires have helped level the playing field with the FS bikes.

    My bike weighs an honest 22.5 - 24 lbs, depending on my wheel and tire choice. No tricks or gimmicks. That's with bar ends, the lock-out switch for the fork, 2 stainless bottle cages [carbon cages are launchers], a comfortable saddle [Fizik Gobi], a quick link taped to the frame, and durable pedals [Ti Atac's].

    As much as I like my RX 29, I don't ride/race it that often these days because this long travel 29er HT works better for me.
    JMS, love your bike and your thoughtful approach, and believe that it surely works well for you. I considered custom ti HT, but soon came to realize that for long rides/endurance racing, a HT just does not make sense with the terrain here in Colorado and my 48 year old body. Our terrain is littered with rocks/roots, and just generally quite rough-including most of the endurance race courses I will be riding on. Every once in awile I ride my HT SS and after about 45 minutes I really get tired of the beating I'm taking, yes this bike is a 26er, and I know a 29er will smooth some of that out-but I have thrown a leg of the 29ers and the increased ride quality is not enough to suit me and my riding.
    I am curious to know what kind of terrain you are generally riding and racing on?

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    I have no clue how guys say they are building 25 lb FS 29ers.
    .
    Well, for starters they don't use 860 gram tires as you have!

    Madre's medium Jet9. 24.75lbs


  93. #93
    jms
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    In case you hadn't heard

    Quote Originally Posted by Padre
    Well, for starters they don't use 860 gram tires as you have!

    Madre's medium Jet9. 24.75lbs

    In case you hadn't heard, there's a recall on those .

    Cool Bike, but, let's be fair, that's a fairly event specific build Padre. To wit:

    A Karma/Crow tire combination is a quick way to a long hike @ some races.

    Stans rotors [aside from currently being unavailable] are passable in the dry, but, add water on a looooong descent......and well, it's a toss up if you or the brakes are squealing louder at the bottom of the hill.

    The wheels [355's ?] are probably dicey for someone more ahem, "robust", than Leslie.

    That being said, I've had my RX down to @ 24.5 lbs for 12 Hrs of Humboldt, running Karmas. Other races it's @ 26 lbs because I don't want my race to turn into a Sierra Club outing.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by jms
    A Karma/Crow tire combination is a quick way to a long hike @ some races.

    .
    I did get the memo.

    Leslie raced 3 seasons of endurance racing on the same set of Karma's. I've been running them now for the last 6 months...the same set. Not a flat or a pinch. Almost bald though.

    She's had the Crow on for the last 6 months also and it's bomber. Don't believe the hype.

    It's a bit sketch on the brakes, but brakes slow you down anyway.

  95. #95
    jms
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    Festival of Rubble

    Quote Originally Posted by barrows
    JMS, love your bike and your thoughtful approach, and believe that it surely works well for you. I considered custom ti HT, but soon came to realize that for long rides/endurance racing, a HT just does not make sense with the terrain here in Colorado and my 48 year old body. Our terrain is littered with rocks/roots, and just generally quite rough-including most of the endurance race courses I will be riding on. Every once in awile I ride my HT SS and after about 45 minutes I really get tired of the beating I'm taking, yes this bike is a 26er, and I know a 29er will smooth some of that out-but I have thrown a leg of the 29ers and the increased ride quality is not enough to suit me and my riding.
    I am curious to know what kind of terrain you are generally riding and racing on?
    Thanks! Nice to see a reply from a like minded soul. I love the bike.

    LOL. I live where rocks go to die. It's a Festival of Rubble @ San Luis Obispo. A typical XC loop is @ 30 miles of this sh_t with @ 6000 ft of climbing. The Kish works unbelievably well on this stuff too.
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  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scotto
    Here's a new player to the game. It's not the DW-Link but I betcha it's pretty racey and light. I'm definitely gunna be looking at it.
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=556281

  97. #97
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    An oldie but a goodie: RM Element?

    4.76 flaming chili's!

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