Who makes a slacker AM 29er frame?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Who makes a slacker AM 29er frame?

    I've been thinking of building up my first 29er as a AM rig but coming from a FR/DH background the 71-72 degree HT angles on all the frames I've been looking at seems steeper than I'd be comfortable with. Who makes a slacker 29er hardtail frame? Thanks for your help.

  2. #2
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    Banshee Paradox

    The next version of the Sinister Simon Bar will have a slacker HT angle as well if things hold true to what I was told via email by FTW a few weeks ago.

  3. #3
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    Why not FS?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield
    Why not FS?
    Mostly to keep cost down and I already have my 6"/6" trail bike.

  5. #5
    bmw
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMcG
    Banshee Paradox

    The next version of the Sinister Simon Bar will have a slacker HT angle as well if things hold true to what I was told via email by FTW a few weeks ago.
    Any chance FTW is aiming for 120mm geo? Sliders would be a nice touch too.

    I love my SB but keep wanting slacker HT and more travel.

  6. #6
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    Look at the Eastern Woods Research

    Looks good

  7. #7
    MBN
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMcG
    Banshee Paradox

    The next version of the Sinister Simon Bar will have a slacker HT angle as well if things hold true to what I was told via email by FTW a few weeks ago.
    MMcG,

    Do you have any further details on the new Simor Bar or the whereabouts of Crazy Fred? I want to hear more about his Paradox.

    M.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MBN
    MMcG,

    Do you have any further details on the new Simor Bar or the whereabouts of Crazy Fred? I want to hear more about his Paradox.

    M.
    PM coming D..........I want you to come grab this Paradox NOW... Or 'll bring her to you tomorow...CF......

  9. #9
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    Paradox

    after a week on my Banshee Paradox. Slack front. Tight in back.

    If you come from a FR/DH bent, you'll be VERY VERY happy. So much fun to throw around

    Big smiles. Big.

  10. #10
    is buachail foighneach me
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryonaspot
    Looks good

    looks like run of the mill xc 29er geometry to me.

    from http://www.ewrbikes.com/owb29er_specs

    Head Tube Angle......70.75 degrees

    Seat Tube Angle.......73 degrees (73.5 degrees Small)

    Top Tube Length.......22.7" (S), 23.7 (M), 24.6 (L), 25.5 (XL)

    BB Height................12.25 inches

    Chainstay Length......17.43 inches

    Standover.................26.75", 31.0" with water bottle cage (L)

    BB Width.................73mm

    Seat Tube Length......16"(Sm), 17" (M), 18.5" (L), 19.5 (XL)

    Seat Tube Diameter...32.0mm

    Seatpost Diameter.....29.4mm

  11. #11
    is buachail foighneach me
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    the 26" OWB, on the other hand, looks exactly like what he's looking for. comparing the geometries of the two, it looks like the 29er version is alot more xc than play.

    Geometry:

    * Head angle - 69 degrees
    * Seat angle - 73 degrees
    * Eff. Top Tube - 22.8" (Medium) / 24.3" (Large)
    * Chain Stays - 16.1" with mucho tire clearance
    * BB Height - 12.25" (with 2.35" tires)
    * BB Width - 73mm
    * Seatpost Diameter - 29.4mm
    * Seat Tube Diameter - 32.0mm
    * Designed around a 4" travel fork
    * Standover 24.75"
    Last edited by sean salach; 09-03-2009 at 12:20 AM. Reason: de-harshing for the mellow.

  12. #12
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    The Simon Bars and other Sinister Hardtails will feature Frank The Welder's twist/improvement/enhancements to the Paragon Sliders - pretty sweet looking from what I've seen.

    I'll alert him to this thread in case he wants to chime in.

    Mark

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MBN
    MMcG,

    Do you have any further details on the new Simor Bar or the whereabouts of Crazy Fred? I want to hear more about his Paradox.

    M.
    There is more detailed information from Frank The Welder on the Sinister Bikes site forum as well in case you want to mozy over there for a look/see.

  14. #14
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    I too was concerned about the steep head angle of a 29er, but after riding one for the last 5 months I find you don't need the slacker angles on 29ers like you do on 26" bikes. No tendency to endo, climbs like a xc bike, and steering is very quick on my Paragon. Maybe you should test ride a 29er to see if you really want the slacker angles.

  15. #15
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    Hi, I am making the Simon Bars right now so I can answer your questions. With some luck they will be the correct answers. I did finally decide to slack it out. I am so indecisive when it comes to 29's and I don't know why. so here is what we have

    head angle 69.5
    CA 18.8
    trail at 44 3.57
    CS 16.9 slammed
    seat angle/length the seat tube is weird so it's steeper if the seat is low and slacker if the seat is extended. 73/72 seat tube lengths are 15/17/19/21
    top tubes are 21.25/22/23/24

    here is a pic of the new drops. the inserts are paragon. The drops will also have jack screws

    thanks folks




  16. #16
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    this is a GREAT question, and one I like to see asked as it validates my existence at this current time

    I have a "project" underway, with precise specs being finalized and much of what this esteemed group of peeps are discussing seems in line with my thinking...not 100%, but close

  17. #17
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    FTW how are those TT measured?

  18. #18
    bmw
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    can someone explain what is going on with those drop outs? I wouldnt trust those little button head bolts to hold the wheel in place, not sure what that other screw is for.

  19. #19
    bmw
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    and, iscg tabs on new Simon Bar?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomotivs
    Mostly to keep cost down and I already have my 6"/6" trail bike.
    Well 6" AM 29er might better suit you needs.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmw
    can someone explain what is going on with those drop outs? I wouldnt trust those little button head bolts to hold the wheel in place, not sure what that other screw is for.
    The button head bolts appear to be the official hardware that Paragon uses on all of their sliding dropouts. Given how incredibly popular they are and the solid reputation they have, i think you are just being paranoid

  22. #22
    bmw
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    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    The button head bolts appear to be the official hardware that Paragon uses on all of their sliding dropouts. Given how incredibly popular they are and the solid reputation they have, i think you are just being paranoid

    Maybe, but I can't take a chance. The button heads on my 'bolt on' i9's don't hold worth a damn no matter how toothy of a washer I put on them and I'm tired of dealing with chain tugs or slipping wheels. I want my next frame to have some type of built in tensioning system.

    PS. my other wheels (thru-axle Surly hubs with 15mm nuts) hold just find without any tugger shenanigans so while I might be retarded that is not the reason my wheel slips.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmw
    and, iscg tabs on new Simon Bar?
    per request only. AND they are machined right to the BB.

    the top tube is measured effective, at a height that would place the horizontal line at the head/top C/L juncture.

    The drop-outs will use a thick laser-cut stainless double hole washer, the pinch boss to prevent rocking, 10mm thick mounting surfaces AND a spring loaded, wing nut jack screw.

    I think they will stay put pretty well.

    The great thing about the paragon inserts is they are really easy to get very quickly and many riders/bikes use them and options are offered.

    The extra bolt is the pinch bolt. The slot is split at the end and this screw either allows you to bring the slot down tight on the insert.

    Using nutted fine thread axles with flange nuts works great on steel bikes. The downside is, this type of axle weighs a lot and require the use of an end wrench. You also will have a hard time getting consistent braking with the caliper/wheel relation changing.

    I can however make you a set of steel slotted inserts for these "chunks" completely filling the adjustment on the frame so you can use a shifting hub or drum brakes. Without the pinch, the braking/shifting hubs can cause things to rock and slip.
    Last edited by verticult; 09-04-2009 at 03:56 AM.

  24. #24
    Don't mess with a 29er
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    Quote Originally Posted by verticult

    the top tube is measured effective, at a height that would place the horizontal line at the head/top C/L juncture.
    So, no XL Version with a eff. TT at or over 25"....?!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by megalow maniac
    So, no XL Version with a eff. TT at or over 25"....?!
    ^^^^^What he said^^^^

  26. #26
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    Keep me posted

    I'm intrigued by the complete redesign of what I think is the best riding (for my likes/terrain etc) 29er hardtail there is. I have the first gen Simon Bar set up with a 120mm Fox and it feels just about perfect to me. Fast, fun, stable, precise, awesome.

    I was skeptical buying a 24 inch TT frame (I'm 5'8"), but with a short stem it's the bomb. The new batch seems to be a complete departure form the first design.

    Whoever rides one of these first, be sure and report back.
    Dirtbag since '89

  27. #27
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    [QUOTE=Singletrack Pig]I'm intrigued by the complete redesign of what I think is the best riding (for my likes/terrain etc) 29er hardtail there is. I have the first gen Simon Bar set up with a 120mm Fox and it feels just about perfect to me. Fast, fun, stable, precise, awesome.

    Holy Sh!t if I didn't know better I'd swear you were talking about the Banshee Paradox...............CF.

  28. #28
    bmw
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    Maybe a 120 fork on my gen1 SB is the answer

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmw
    Maybe a 120 fork on my gen1 SB is the answer
    No maybe's about it brother that is your answer....I promise you Reba 120 TA......CF.

  30. #30
    bmw
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRAZY FRED
    No maybe's about it brother that is your answer....I promise you Reba 120 TA......CF.
    Yeah I always think about doing that but if I buy a new fork and wheelset I might as well build up a whole new bike... not that I'm against a new bike.

    Unfortunatley none of these frames come with taper HT so the forks will probably break or flex uncontrollabley at best during AM situations.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmw
    Yeah I always think about doing that but if I buy a new fork and wheelset I might as well build up a whole new bike... not that I'm against a new bike.

    Unfortunatley none of these frames come with taper HT so the forks will probably break or flex uncontrollabley at best during AM situations.
    OK let me see if I understand this, You have a Sinister Simon Bar and because it does not have a tapered HT the 120 fork will make this bike flex uncontrollabley or worse break during situations that this frame was designed for? You do understand that this is a "Sinister" and that this whole 'Tapered" HT stuff has only just begun to appear on frames like VERY recently? Also I didn't realize that a new fork and wheelset was for the most part a whole new bike...Your a big boy( I'm assuming) and you can think and belive what ever you want,but I'm preet sure you could run a 120 fork on that SSB of yours with out any problems (with in reason)...........CF.

  32. #32
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    I'm trying a 80mm fork on my Simon Bar to compensate for the new head angle I'm not too fond of. Jersey has no trails which require bombing with a big fork and slack head. I need the most nimble 29er I can find. I'm actually going with a carbon lefty.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtluke
    I'm trying a 80mm fork on my Simon Bar to compensate for the new head angle I'm not too fond of. Jersey has no trails which require bombing with a big fork and slack head. I need the most nimble 29er I can find. I'm actually going with a carbon lefty.
    Maybe go with a different frame...

  34. #34
    bmw
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRAZY FRED
    OK let me see if I understand this, You have a Sinister Simon Bar and because it does not have a tapered HT the 120 fork will make this bike flex uncontrollabley or worse break during situations that this frame was designed for? You do understand that this is a "Sinister" and that this whole 'Tapered" HT stuff has only just begun to appear on frames like VERY recently? Also I didn't realize that a new fork and wheelset was for the most part a whole new bike...Your a big boy( I'm assuming) and you can think and belive what ever you want,but I'm preet sure you could run a 120 fork on that SSB of yours with out any problems (with in reason)...........CF.
    FRED - these frames don't even have hydroformed tubes. Plus I want 92mm bb with press in bearings for large tire clearance and 16" chain stays. Also the SB seems to be the only 29er that gets bb height right, good for Frank!

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomotivs
    I've been thinking of building up my first 29er as a AM rig but coming from a FR/DH background the 71-72 degree HT angles on all the frames I've been looking at seems steeper than I'd be comfortable with. Who makes a slacker 29er hardtail frame? Thanks for your help.
    Take a look at the Canfieldbrothers Nimble 9 frame.
    Short rear end and slack head angle.
    Just an idea.
    VM

  36. #36
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    BMW totally fits the bill of people who own I9's
    they must be the best, they are the loudest and the most expensive!
    And they are needed to make sure everyone looking at you knows you take your mountain biking seriously. No real added benefit to biking, it's style points that count.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmw
    FRED - these frames don't even have hydroformed tubes. Plus I want 92mm bb with press in bearings for large tire clearance and 16" chain stays. Also the SB seems to be the only 29er that gets bb height right, good for Frank!
    what BB height does it have? going by memory...isnt it like 12.7"? My spec is being finalized and I am leaning towards 50mm drop (~12.5" BB with normal 2.1-ish tire...higher with bigger tire i will run no doubt)

    my new "project" is coming along nicely and this thread, while i dont care what MTBR peeps think really, at least is consistent with some of my decisions being made for it! I cannot freaking wait!!!! AM Hardtail...booyah!

  38. #38
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    Broad Brush...

    Quote Originally Posted by gtluke
    BMW totally fits the bill of people who own I9's
    they must be the best, they are the loudest and the most expensive!
    And they are needed to make sure everyone looking at you knows you take your mountain biking seriously. No real added benefit to biking, it's style points that count.
    I'm not rich, I don't care what other people think about my worldly possessions, and nothing goes on my bike unless it works well, without hassles, and I run I9's.

    I9 is a local company for me, is operated by a bunch of great guys, and they really are better than other wheels I've ridden, in my opinion. I was lucky to be an early adopter and got a good deal, but they're a great product.

    Oh yeah, GT riders only shop at WalMart, wear Primal Wear jerseys and blast Limjp Bizkit at the trailhead.
    Dirtbag since '89

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    I do always shop at walmart... but I don't have a gt bicycle.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by megalow maniac
    So, no XL Version with a eff. TT at or over 25"....?!
    You guys craving an XL and longer TT should check the Sinister Forum - Frank the Welder mentions that his TT lengths as initially posted are a bit off - it was mainly a mistake from the "bike room" to the computer room.

    But essentially tack on an extra inch of TT for the 17 (23"TT), 19 (24"TT), 21" (25"TT) frame sizes and I think you'll have the numbers you seek.

    I'll see if I can get Frank back in on the thread to clarify this post.

    Best,

    Mark

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singletrack Pig
    I'm not rich, I don't care what other people think about my worldly possessions, and nothing goes on my bike unless it works well, without hassles, and I run I9's.

    I9 is a local company for me, is operated by a bunch of great guys, and they really are better than other wheels I've ridden, in my opinion. I was lucky to be an early adopter and got a good deal, but they're a great product.

    Oh yeah, GT riders only shop at WalMart, wear Primal Wear jerseys and blast Limjp Bizkit at the trailhead.

    Come on man, all employees of non-profit environmental organizations are rolling in the $$. That's why the industry is just taking off.

    And the funniest part is, I think he was referring to the poster whose screen name is bmw, not you, Mr. Auto-Tuner man.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown
    Come on man, all employees of non-profit environmental organizations are rolling in the $$. That's why the industry is just taking off.

    And the funniest part is, I think he was referring to the poster whose screen name is bmw, not you, Mr. Auto-Tuner man.
    I didn't think he was referring to me and my choice of vehicle, though I do shoulder some bleeding heart guilt around that. I was just defending us working class I9 riders.

    -Sincerely, T-Pain
    Dirtbag since '89

  43. #43
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    So you have I9's and a BMW and your not rich? Are you a thief then?

  44. #44
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    True,

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown
    Come on man, all employees of non-profit environmental organizations are rolling in the $$. That's why the industry is just taking off.

    And the funniest part is, I think he was referring to the poster whose screen name is bmw, not you, Mr. Auto-Tuner man.

    "BMW fit's the bill" MB is right on Singletrackpig, GT was for sure aiming that towards BMW.......CF.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtluke
    So you have I9's and a BMW and your not rich? Are you a thief then?
    Have you ever heard of used 20 year old cars?

    eDITTED TO REMOVE NAMECALLING, SORRY ABOUT THAT.

  46. #46
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    e30? If so then I apologize :P

  47. #47
    bmw
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    what BB height does it have? going by memory...isnt it like 12.7"? My spec is being finalized and I am leaning towards 50mm drop (~12.5" BB with normal 2.1-ish tire...higher with bigger tire i will run no doubt)

    my new "project" is coming along nicely and this thread, while i dont care what MTBR peeps think really, at least is consistent with some of my decisions being made for it! I cannot freaking wait!!!! AM Hardtail...booyah!
    Mine is a touch under 13" with 100mm Reba and Rampage Tires. Freaking Love it.

  48. #48
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    gtluke - I bought a silver Cane Creek 110 to match my i9's. Hate on that.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmw
    Mine is a touch under 13" with 100mm Reba and Rampage Tires. Freaking Love it.
    cool...yeah, my OCD has me hung up on BB height but I think I may just stick with the 50mm drop/~12.5 BB...I have no idea what the "best" is anyway (nor is there a best anyway) and i think itll be ok. at this point i think the builder would kill me with any more OCD that i have already unloaded on him besided, bashing on rocks should be slightly less of a problem on a hardtail than a fully as the climbs are all about momentum, a la SS mode

  50. #50
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    Here is the correct measurements for this production run.
    XS top tube 21.25, ST of 13.5 center to end 14" even
    S TT 22, ST 15"
    M TT 23, ST 17
    L TT 24,ST 20
    XL TT 25, ST 22

    I made this batch at a slacker angle because I had been told that offset was changing and this is what was more desirable. For Luke, I can weld up the "mother" of the 08 batch for you so it will be the geo you want.

    the current popular hydro-formed shapes have only a fraction of the torsional rigidity of a fully round tube. Most of the flex in a frame comes at the chainstay yoke and bottom of the seat tube and it is far more common to see frames with full yokes, heavier and stiffer than tubular or semi tubular like the SB so I would have to disagree on the stiffness issue.

    Oversize headsets diameters apply huge amounts of force to the bearings. You can see this in the way onepointfive frames with OS bearings usually need regular adjustment and even King headsets come with the special retainer device because of this issue. While the large steerer is stiffer, I don't see a big payoff when simply increasing the steerer wall resolves the issue without the related bearing issues. The freaky short headtubes on 29 makes the issue even worse. I know it works fine for people so this works fine too.

    I have built frames for fellas over 275 and one dude over 300. Since I build with aircraft tube, i can build a bike of any size and level of strength.

  51. #51
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    ooo that would be sweet frank, thanks!
    would that be with the most dropouts though?

  52. #52
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    Cf:

    I'm confused?

    You do, or do not, like the Paradox?

    Quote Originally Posted by CRAZY FRED
    PM coming D..........I want you to come grab this Paradox NOW... Or 'll bring her to you tomorow...CF......
    "I can only assume chan slap is what happens when you get assaulted by Jackie Chan. I don't think anybody can prevent that."

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesenator
    I'm confused?

    You do, or do not, like the Paradox?
    Fred loves the Paradox...he is just being a sharing friend to allow others to experience the stoke via his own bike

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