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  1. #201
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    Edited, decided it was just not worth it

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Now that you've bragged about getting a dozen plus reps for your mad skills & superior intellect as expressed within this thread, I imagine there are some who're considering neg repping you for your swaggering eminence, if not simply because they disagree with you.

    I am, ever since you neg repped me a few months ago for what you claimed was a similar infraction.
    =sParty
    Last edited by Nurse Ben; 1 Week Ago at 06:25 PM.
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  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Now that you've bragged about getting a dozen plus reps for your mad skills & superior intellect as expressed within this thread, I imagine there are some who're considering neg repping you for your swaggering eminence, if not simply because they disagree with you.

    I am, ever since you neg repped me a few months ago for what you claimed was a similar infraction.
    =sParty
    Still waiting for it.... lol 🎣

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  3. #203
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    Edited: I find it easier to simply put fools on a list to be ignored. Who knows, maybe I’ve made other people’s list too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post


    Still waiting for it.... lol 
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  4. #204
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    Ooooh name calling 🥰 Puppet to who exactly?



    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Puppet.
    Last edited by Streetdoctor; 2 Weeks Ago at 05:55 AM.
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  5. #205
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  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    I don't disagree with that article...at all. Thanks for posting.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post



    The industry at large bears the burden of upgraditus? I prefer to believe that I'm the one who's responsible for my actions.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  8. #208
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    So when are we gonna be able to read these reviews that everyone is fighting about?

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  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    The industry at large bears the burden of upgraditus? I prefer to believe that I'm the one who's responsible for my actions.
    From where I sit: 2019 bike testing.-komodo_2011.jpg
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    shitty article then and still a shitty article. If it's worth doing it's worth over doing. Moderation is for cowards. From someone who is in his early 30's and staring down the barrel of a microdiscectomy after 5 months of prolonged back issues and potentially facing life changing (both in career and "sport" which is bullshit to me because it's a passion- life blood to me) changes I refuse to think that way. Burn hot and fast my friend... don't judge others and others won't judge you.

    The difference is the rider who goes out for a bike ride for fun, fitness, social life, etc. to provide some excitement to their otherwise mundane life. Cycling to me is my passion and my life. You don't have to feel the way I do but you certainly don't have the right to discredit it. A lot of the argument here comes with the anonymity that is the internet. Most likely I wouldn't be having these discussions or "arguments" with people like Ben because it would be obvious at first glance in "real life" we aren't on the same page.

    I'll raise your article a contradictory article by a favorite author of mine, please take the time to give it a read and reflect...

    https://medium.com/mft-discourse/twi...t-e4a138908196
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  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    shitty article then and still a shitty article. If it's worth doing it's worth over doing. Moderation is for cowards. From someone who is in his early 30's and staring down the barrel of a microdiscectomy after 5 months of prolonged back issues and potentially facing life changing (both in career and "sport" which is bullshit to me because it's a passion- life blood to me) changes I refuse to think that way. Burn hot and fast my friend... don't judge others and others won't judge you.

    The difference is the rider who goes out for a bike ride for fun, fitness, social life, etc. to provide some excitement to their otherwise mundane life. Cycling to me is my passion and my life. You don't have to feel the way I do but you certainly don't have the right to discredit it. A lot of the argument here comes with the anonymity that is the internet. Most likely I wouldn't be having these discussions or "arguments" with people like Ben because it would be obvious at first glance in "real life" we aren't on the same page.

    I'll raise your article a contradictory article by a favorite author of mine, please take the time to give it a read and reflect...

    https://medium.com/mft-discourse/twi...t-e4a138908196
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  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    So you don't see a problem with an XC racer doing a ride review on a Santa Cruz V10 or Aaron Gwinn reviewing the specialized Epic? You lost me...
    XC and DH are at the extremes and everyone knows that. What is not clear is XC vs trail or Trail vs Enduro and even When does Enduro turn to DH?

    I can see XC racers riding trail or enduro bikes for a change up. And is Enduro only for enduro racing? At the far ends of bike spectrum there are clear differences, but as you get in the middle there is a blending. So what about the guy who does an XC race here and there, but most rides trails. But likes how fast and snappy an XC bike is, but also wants to explore more gnar? How big can you go before all the climb or riding to the downhills becomes boring or pain full. What about riding tech that pretty flat or slightly up hill?

    Honestly the best review I have seen was from a fellow rider. Just "joe average". He stated what his bias was for riding and took out two bikes and described how they rode on specific trails. Also how they handled certain features on these trails. Back to back on stuff I have ridden so I know how to put all that in context.
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    XC and DH are at the extremes and everyone knows that. What is not clear is XC vs trail or Trail vs Enduro and even When does Enduro turn to DH?

    I can see XC racers riding trail or enduro bikes for a change up. And is Enduro only for enduro racing? At the far ends of bike spectrum there are clear differences, but as you get in the middle there is a blending. So what about the guy who does an XC race here and there, but most rides trails. But likes how fast and snappy an XC bike is, but also wants to explore more gnar? How big can you go before all the climb or riding to the downhills becomes boring or pain full. What about riding tech that pretty flat or slightly up hill?

    Honestly the best review I have seen was from a fellow rider. Just "joe average". He stated what his bias was for riding and took out two bikes and described how they rode on specific trails. Also how they handled certain features on these trails. Back to back on stuff I have ridden so I know how to put all that in context.
    I understand your argument and agree but based on what I can see of the bikes being tested here and the players making their arguments this is not the case. It’s closer to the quote you made of me. In the end it comes down to a personal decision and personally demoing or taking a gamble is still the answer as most likely you’ll be happy either way if you’re “in the middle”. It probably comes down more to fit at that point IMO.

    I personally own one of the bikes tested that isn't widely available yet and I can assure you no one in the middle is (or should be) considering a 170mm/170mm travel 29'er with a giant wheelbase unless they have a defined bias towards DH/Enduro. Yes I can still say it climbs "awesome" relative to other long travel 29'ers. It's obviously not a Scott Spark....
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  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Wow! A dozen in one thread, that’s gotta be some kind of record ... or utter bs.

    I’m sure MTBR is so proud.
    Since you called me out... Ok maybe not a dozen but close enough. sorry i had to wait to receive another one because I’m not smart enough to find them after receiving a notification. Aren’t you in your 50’s? Let’s continue the childish bickering... since my back is acting up this is the best I can do. what’s next?!

    From where I sit: 2019 bike testing.-bc95cf3e-9e46-476e-bce1-e54d5530d3e9.jpg
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  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I can see XC racers riding trail or enduro bikes for a change up. And is Enduro only for enduro racing? At the far ends of bike spectrum there are clear differences, but as you get in the middle there is a blending. So what about the guy who does an XC race here and there, but most rides trails. But likes how fast and snappy an XC bike is, but also wants to explore more gnar? How big can you go before all the climb or riding to the downhills becomes boring or pain full. What about riding tech that pretty flat or slightly up hill?
    I don't totally disagree. I also think youtubers can review a bike where and however they want. I think actual journalists should probably focus on the terrain and type of riding the bike is designed for. At the very least the reviewer should provide some context of their bias like you said. I've seen biased reviews in the auto industry heavily influence the public. I've read online where people repeated statements from certain reviews like it was from personal experience. That happens in the mtb industry and on this forum too. My issue with the original post is that Mike is simply anti low BB. He explains that low BB's are destroying the trails and the industry got it wrong. He didn't state his bias then explain that the bike(s) weren't suited to the specific trails he rode.

    Enduro is in the strict sense a racing format but obviously people ride in the same/similar terrain without racing enduro. Enduro races often take place in DH bike parks. The nearest enduro races to me are held at Windrock, of course none of the stages took place on the Pro-GRT course. There is of course sometimes a grey area between trail and enduro bikes.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    no one in the middle is (or should be) considering a 170mm/170mm travel 29'er with a giant wheelbase unless they have a defined bias towards DH/Enduro.
    This. Ride whatever you want but it's a bad decision if you get a 170mm bike to only ride flat terrain.

  17. #217
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    I posted that article from Singletracks because of the bit about negativity. Some of you don't get it. To prove my point, at least one of you is going to respond negatively to this post as well.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    ...
    I personally own one of the bikes tested that isn't widely available yet and I can assure you no one in the middle is (or should be) considering a 170mm/170mm travel 29'er with a giant wheelbase unless they have a defined bias towards DH/Enduro. Yes I can still say it climbs "awesome" relative to other long travel 29'ers. It's obviously not a Scott Spark....
    That is good information. So many people comment on going bigger since the long travel bikes climb so well. Nobody seems to want to say these bikes are still tanks and good for plowing over stuff. They might do it well (and better than ever), but making it feel small? My friend who I ride with as 2014 Enduro 29. He loves the bike on the way down gnarly terrain, but curses it climbing and in tighter turns. Seems like long travel bike are still long travel bikes.
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  19. #219
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    Mike,

    Thanks for going to the time and effort to share your thoughts on the process and the reviews of so many cool bikes. I for one appreciate it and I know there are a lot of others who value your opinion as well.

    BTW, anytime I get bored at work and need some inspiration, I just cruise your blog, truly good stuff.

    Thanks again.
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  20. #220
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    While my xcish oriented bike may be outright more efficient on climbs, lighter, easier to throw around (not so sure on that), it's absolutely more fatiguing over the long haul compared to my enduroish bike. I live for big backcountry days and these newer crop of LT 29'ers just work so damn well. Less fatiquing has me riding harder deeper into big rides which equals more fun. Less beat up the next day too, and I crash less often. Big wheels, deep supportive suspension, long WB, skack HA, steep ST, and short CS, adds up to a package that just works for me.
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    That is good information. So many people comment on going bigger since the long travel bikes climb so well. Nobody seems to want to say these bikes are still tanks and good for plowing over stuff. They might do it well (and better than ever), but making it feel small? My friend who I ride with as 2014 Enduro 29. He loves the bike on the way down gnarly terrain, but curses it climbing and in tighter turns. Seems like long travel bike are still long travel bikes.
    People forget it boils down to what you ride. I guess the go bigger it climbs good for the travel are the ones that ride terrain where you climb for a while and then are rewarded with a nice long downhill.

    I fell into that trap- I personally don't think that mantra works for those of us that ride undulating trails. Short up hills and short downhills. The big bike is just a big bike, to me not really fun on those trails.
    OG Ripley v2

  22. #222
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    He takes great pictures, I really enjoy reading his trip journals.

    I always feel a little lazy after hearing about his latest epic

    I wonder if anyone saw his original post as it was published....

    Quote Originally Posted by azfishman View Post
    Mike,

    Thanks for going to the time and effort to share your thoughts on the process and the reviews of so many cool bikes. I for one appreciate it and I know there are a lot of others who value your opinion as well.

    BTW, anytime I get bored at work and need some inspiration, I just cruise your blog, truly good stuff.

    Thanks again.
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  23. #223
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    ... there was a time when people read articles and talked to live people about what they thought, no anonymity, then we got technology and suddenly you could be anyone and everywhere.

    Sadly it kinda breeds itself, no end in site, probably no way to filter outside of avoidance.

    The parallel that reasonates most with me is how the “vitriol” increases as the audience increased, not unlike anonymity increasing with the size of a community.
    It’s for this reason I prefer to live in small towns ... not sure how that translates to an online community.

    In the end, the “shiteshow” is us.

    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    I posted that article from Singletracks because of the bit about negativity. Some of you don't get it. To prove my point, at least one of you is going to respond negatively to this post as well.
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  24. #224
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    https://youtu.be/ReUHhStG70k

    Worth a watch to tie back what was mentioned earlier

  25. #225
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    Social scientists used to set up research projects testing this very thing, but it was considered unethical, so rules were developed to protect people from being harmed.

    I read a book once about a fictional “advanced” Neanderthal culture that culled its population to weed out bad genes. They would sterilize Neanderthals who committed violent crimes and in some cases they would sterilize the extended family.

    It would certainly keep the population under check

    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    https://youtu.be/ReUHhStG70k

    Worth a watch to tie back what was mentioned earlier
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  26. #226
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    Edited.....
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  27. #227
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    Wow.

    Stepped out for a few days off and seem to have missed a segue.

    Is it winter or something?!

  28. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Wow.

    Stepped out for a few days off and seem to have missed a segue.

    Is it winter or something?!
    No shit.

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  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Wow.

    Stepped out for a few days off and seem to have missed a segue.

    Is it winter or something?!
    Fun while it lasted, though, eh?!
    Whining is not a strategy.

  30. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    So you don't see a problem with an XC racer doing a ride review on a Santa Cruz V10 or Aaron Gwinn reviewing the specialized Epic? You lost me....

    Different bikes excel in different genres (as they are designed to do). As bikes become more "specialized" I think XC, Trail, Enduro, DH, Fat, Gravel, Road, Endurance Road, Crit, all have their places and should be professionally reviewed by people who excel in those respective riding genres. An endurance road rider reviewing an enduro bike would be useless to me as an enduro racer.

    Yes that 35lb enduro bike probably does climb great in the context of it being designed with a downhill bias as an ENDURO bike. That seems painfully obvious to me... It's being compared against other bikes in it's class. If you read the review as "it climbs great" and expect it to climb as well as a short travel XC bike that weighs 5lbs less that's on you not the reviewer.

    There's not a pedal bike on the market that is designed solely for "railing flow trails". Pedal strikes are skills issue period. Flame away!
    This really is a problem. Though it's not usually an "XC racer doing a ride review on a SC V10" or the reverse, but instead, a bunch of reviews from the middle. Which makes absolute sense from a marketing standpoint, because why would you target an audience for your review that's on the long tail of the distribution? So, a lot of the reviews for big bikes aren't really about racing, and the same goes for the small bikes. DH bikes seem to be relatively unscathed by this, probably because they are *so* not meant to be pedaled up a hill that nobody is expecting them to be.

    Coming from an XC context, it's unbelievably frustrating trying to find reviews in the spirit of how I plan to race the bike. (I'm guessing this is the same for pure Enduro bikes too). I rarely see a review that talks about how this bike is under-performing in a race context. Instead, everything "climbs great" and "descends better than the typical XC bike" (which 2019 bike is a typical XC bike at this point?). But then you throw your leg over an SC Blur, and good luck pedaling that efficiently up semi-technical singletrack where you're either riding on a water bed or playing ping pong on the rocks, depending on whether you're locked out. And the Yeti SB 100 feels weird for an XC bike, as much as I like my Yetis and wish it was an easy upgrade from the ASR. But again, "pedals absolutely amazing" - some cat 3 cyclist, or worse, some guy who's "in the top 10% on Strava". Anyways, I hardly ever see reviews on XC bikes in the context of competitive XC racing. Instead, it's always people lamenting not having 20-30-40mm more travel and a bigger dropper.

    At the pointy end, I just assume Kabush can win on anything. Case in point, winning on a gravel grinder at Iceman Cometh. And Nino can win on anything, etc. So the fact that Pro riders can get away with riding them doesn't mean that the bike is at all fun to ride.

  31. #231
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    Agreed, bike reviews are pretty useless except for weeding out the real dogs or bikes that will never work for you, and if you carefully read between the lines you can sniff out bigger problems.

    I know we could all come up with a dozen reasons why it wouldn't work but I sure wish bike reviews could be more objective. Why not have a test lap with tech climbing and descending. Have a reference bike that you ride before each review to set the "average" time for the day and see how the reviewed bike compares. Have a lot of caveats about how absolute times don't matter, but it would at least give us some indication of where it falls on the scale even if its just the up/down ratio for that particular bike.

    How about actually measuring the wheel travel force on a frame/shock dyno ? But there I go again on my rant about how there is NO technical/dyno information on our suspensions available at all, something even the most amateur Saturday night circle track racer expects with their shock purchases.

    Anything that would allow us to make better decisions.

  32. #232
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    Definitely. Also, power meters are pretty ubiquitous at this point. If there was a common test loop, and a well trained rider, we could look and see where effort levels are different with different bikes. On a highly bumpy and technical climb, I'd expect an efficient FS bike to have better climbing characteristics than a good HT, simply due to constantly having to manage body position on the HT. But, on paper, the HT is the best climber around.

    Actually, scratch all of that. I just wish that it was easier to locally demo XC race bikes. They're somewhat hard to track down, especially HTs.

  33. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeranzin View Post
    Definitely. Also, power meters are pretty ubiquitous at this point.
    Well yes and no. Power meters are reasonably common on road bikes, but even then lots of riders don't have them. Among XC racers you see power meters, but they are not at least to my eyes common. Outside XC racing most guys would complain if you even talk about power and watts. I use strava to give me a rough idea of power and I can use strava to get an idea of speed and differences. Not perfect, but some data, if you understand the limitations, is better than no data.

    When I did some demo's on my way to transition from 26" to 29" and HT to FS was pretty strategic about it. I did back to back rides with my current bike and use Strava to get an idea for actual speed vs perceived speed. I also tested them in a way to really evaluate their perceived weakness rather than their strengths. In both cases I wanted to have fast pedaling good handling bike. I did not focus on DH performance as much since these bikes were by their nature better, but how much might I give up where the HT or 26er was strong? So when demoing I really focused my mind around that. Found 2 bikes that were not really fantastic. One was a tiny bit better, but not worth the $$ and the other felt maybe better overall, but was clearly slower climbing. Hmm 29" wheel FS race bike 12 years newer and $5000 more expensive was slower than my old 26er HT on short climb? Yeah it was. Might have been faster overall, but I did not buy.

    The bike I did buy a few years later I rode back to back with my 29er Singlespeed in prep for short track race. So race pace lap on 3 mile loop mostly smooth with no need for suspension. Turns out I could ride that bike almost like my SS by standing and hammering and it just worked. Then short little test on a steeper rougher climb and the associated descent was enough (were some on line reviews said the bike was too harsh) to tell me I finally found the bike worth dropping a large pot of money on.
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  34. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Well yes and no. Power meters are reasonably common on road bikes, but even then lots of riders don't have them. Among XC racers you see power meters, but they are not at least to my eyes common. Outside XC racing most guys would complain if you even talk about power and watts. I use strava to give me a rough idea of power and I can use strava to get an idea of speed and differences. Not perfect, but some data, if you understand the limitations, is better than no data.
    That's fair, though if we're talking XC bikes, a power meter can say a whole lot. To some people, it might be more tolerable because the goal of the reviewer would be to keep power at as close to power X over the duration of the climb, and not "look at how many watts I can do!". Then we can look at things like time to reach the top, as well as effort based on HR. I say that a power meter is ubiquitous in the sense that it's not very hard to get one on a mtb, which means that a reviewer could have that going pretty easily. My whole goal here is to contextualize what "climbs really well" actually means.

    If seeing "watts" in a review about an XC bike makes someone angry, chances are, they probably aren't in the market for an XC bike.

    Also, FWIW, I haven't seen great correlation with Strava's estimated power on trails vs actual power. Especially on rides where NP and AP will decouple a lot, such as a chunky technical climb. The entire calculation is based on a smooth surface, and identical pedal dynamics.

    Documented here: https://support.strava.com/hc/en-us/...lculates-Power

  35. #235
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    I look at strava power numbers for specific climbs. Mostly comparing the same climb on different days. Clearly rocky climbs show lower power than smooth climbs as they can't figure that into the calculations. So again not ideal, but it can work given the limitations of the data entry and shows trends pretty well.
    Joe
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    I didn't read all of that conversation ^, but I wouldn't put too much stock in Strava's estimated power output. It thinks I make 1,300+ watts every time I get on a bike.
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  37. #237
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    Also, lots of people serious about enduro racing are running power meters... it would be cool to see them used in comparison reviews.
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    It would be cool to see ANY objective scientific testing.
    Enduro mag has ran a few good comparison tests (5 riders, 5 bikes, 2 warmup laps each and 3 averaged laps per rider on each bike). DH only of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    I didn't read all of that conversation ^, but I wouldn't put too much stock in Strava's estimated power output. It thinks I make 1,300+ watts every time I get on a bike.
    Same. It ridiculously underestimates the power of guys like us!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    It would be cool to see ANY objective scientific testing.
    Enduro mag has ran a few good comparison tests (5 riders, 5 bikes, 2 warmup laps each and 3 averaged laps per rider on each bike). DH only of course.
    And I ALMOST bought a Hightower LT based off that review because it was the most scientific one I had seen. Only reason I didn't is because it will be worth nothing next year when the V2 comes out ( just guessing no hard facts) with the new lower link suspension like the bronson.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    And I ALMOST bought a Hightower LT based off that review because it was the most scientific one I had seen. Only reason I didn't is because it will be worth nothing next year when the V2 comes out ( just guessing no hard facts) with the new lower link suspension like the bronson.
    Be happy you didn't. The top model with coil (push) wasnt as good climing or decending chunk as my Avyed Riot. And any of the lesser priced options were not fun at all. There's a lot of hang up that the lower mounted shock may fix. The new Broson was sweet. My wife is torn between it and the new Process.

  42. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    It would be cool to see ANY objective scientific testing.
    Enduro mag has ran a few good comparison tests (5 riders, 5 bikes, 2 warmup laps each and 3 averaged laps per rider on each bike). DH only of course.
    I would agree, although I think there is WAY too much emphasis on strava times and the like. Way too many variables day to day. It depends on what you eat, your fitness, any minor illnesses you may not be aware of, etc. Then there's the "I got a new bike, I'm going to push it harder now!", and so on. I think we are getting there and at some point, hopefully consumers will demand it. There was a lot of "magic" in the 90s and 2000s with "these bikes work awesome, they pedal awesome, they have vertical wheelpaths", etc. Turns out a lot of it was just straight up lies and they really had no idea what they were doing. These days it seems that most stuff is actually designed based on kinematics and most companies that don't have a good handle on this contract out with someone that does. Still, we get some outliers with crazy wacky leverage curves and poor or inappropriate shock tunes. Too see this stuff on a dyno and the force curves provides a lot of insight and it stops becoming "magic" and becomes science.
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  43. #243
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    For what it is worth strava power is calculated from 3 user defined inputs. 1) Rider weight, 2) Bike weight, 3) Bike type. Strava uses a formula to generate power based on speed/acceleration of defined mass up a certain grade. Clearly strava has speed and acceleration data from GPS points. Grade is determined by Strava's mapping where they overlay the course on topo maps to get the grade. Bike type is factor use to differentiate between smooth road bikes and more draggy mtn bikes.

    If you don't enter an accurate weight for bike and body you power numbers will be meaning less. If the segment your are riding has good topo representation then there is no reason to believe the power numbers are that bad. Strava cannot account for wind or trail roughness, but if you compare similar to conditions 5x in a row you will see similar power numbers. So for example ride a 5% climb at 10mph avg 5x times and the power for each will be really close. It is simple physics as it takes a certain power to move fixed mass up a fixed grade at fixed speed. Problems crop up if you at instantaneous or max power. Those numbers are junk due to the choppy nature of GPS speed/acceleration. If you look at average power over 60 seconds to 10 minutes it can be pretty solid. Now if that 10 minues it "rolling" terrain where you coast at any point then average power is useless again. It will average your "on" with your "off" and show a lower number. So with good input and enough data points and knowledge about the limitations you can use Strava calculated power to learn trends.

    Most review writers are not analytical enough to do a proper data study or to even provide limited data with proper controls on noise variables or even realize the limitations. Most readers don't really care that much to even really understand the data anyway. The right way is a mix of both feel and data. So you do some testing with data and then try to correlate the data to rider feel and input. Data never lies, but it can mislead and feelings are often not backed up by numbers.
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  44. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    Be happy you didn't. The top model with coil (push) wasnt as good climing or decending chunk as my Avyed Riot. And any of the lesser priced options were not fun at all. There's a lot of hang up that the lower mounted shock may fix. The new Broson was sweet. My wife is torn between it and the new Process.
    I went with a 11-6 on the Riot instead. I just want a longer fork and a lighter frame.

  45. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    I went with a 11-6 on the Riot instead. I just want a longer fork and a lighter frame.
    Same, i think there are a lot of people who feel the same. I quit testing bikes. And now I'm just waiting.

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    You are gonna wait a long, long time.

    Sadly, they’re not coming back, bad blood, bad business, life goes on.

    Guerilla Gravity is not the same, but they’re in the neighborhood. I got a Smash because the Bros are done.

    2019 is next month, that’ll make it three years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    Same, i think there are a lot of people who feel the same. I quit testing bikes. And now I'm just waiting.
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  47. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    You are gonna wait a long, long time.

    Sadly, they’re not coming back, bad blood, bad business, life goes on.

    Guerilla Gravity is not the same, but they’re in the neighborhood. I got a Smash because the Bros are done.

    2019 is next month, that’ll make it three years.
    The smash is on my short list. I've ridden one and was impressed. The suspention wasn't as good (I road a push tuned and rider was the same weight) the Canfield is more linear the first part of travel. but I could adjust if I break my Riot before something else from CB comes out. Honestly there is a 50/50 shot they missed the 3rd party production for 2018. Next year, time will tell, and so will the punishment I'm putting on my bike.

  48. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    For what it is worth strava power is calculated from 3 user defined inputs. 1) Rider weight, 2) Bike weight, 3) Bike type. Strava uses a formula to generate power based on speed/acceleration of defined mass up a certain grade. Clearly strava has speed and acceleration data from GPS points. Grade is determined by Strava's mapping where they overlay the course on topo maps to get the grade. Bike type is factor use to differentiate between smooth road bikes and more draggy mtn bikes.

    If you don't enter an accurate weight for bike and body you power numbers will be meaning less. If the segment your are riding has good topo representation then there is no reason to believe the power numbers are that bad. Strava cannot account for wind or trail roughness, but if you compare similar to conditions 5x in a row you will see similar power numbers. So for example ride a 5% climb at 10mph avg 5x times and the power for each will be really close. It is simple physics as it takes a certain power to move fixed mass up a fixed grade at fixed speed. Problems crop up if you at instantaneous or max power. Those numbers are junk due to the choppy nature of GPS speed/acceleration. If you look at average power over 60 seconds to 10 minutes it can be pretty solid. Now if that 10 minues it "rolling" terrain where you coast at any point then average power is useless again. It will average your "on" with your "off" and show a lower number. So with good input and enough data points and knowledge about the limitations you can use Strava calculated power to learn trends.

    Most review writers are not analytical enough to do a proper data study or to even provide limited data with proper controls on noise variables or even realize the limitations. Most readers don't really care that much to even really understand the data anyway. The right way is a mix of both feel and data. So you do some testing with data and then try to correlate the data to rider feel and input. Data never lies, but it can mislead and feelings are often not backed up by numbers.
    That's the problem. One or two rides "faster" with Strava doesn't mean you are on a faster bike. I have XC races where I swap positions with a few riders on a regular basis, or where I just feel terrible and can't put forth a good effort. There are way too many variables and it takes a lot of data to really get to the point where you have something conclusive.
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  49. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    That's the problem. One or two rides "faster" with Strava doesn't mean you are on a faster bike. I have XC races where I swap positions with a few riders on a regular basis, or where I just feel terrible and can't put forth a good effort. There are way too many variables and it takes a lot of data to really get to the point where you have something conclusive.
    Yeah, doing testing that way would certainly be insufficient. GCN does a somewhat decent job with some of their experiments, such as how rider weight affects climbing time. Instead of doing an "all out" effort, which will be highly variable due to a multitude of factors, instead, you'd try to hold power to a constant X watts, and climb the same piece(s) of trail repeatedly. The watts you climb with should be well below threshold, so that they're easy to repeat and don't require going to the well for motivation. If you try different bikes back to back, your weight will only vary 1 or 2 lbs as you vary hydration levels.

    Of course, this requires a power meter on the bike because you need feedback on your output to try and keep it regulated.

    Ideally, you'd run a handful of tests, and you'd vary the watts you put out on the climbs. With that, you might be able to get a glimpse of how the bike handles under different loads. (It might also expose how the rider's efficiency varies over different loads, and how the efficiency of the drivetrain does or doesn't help compensate for it).

  50. #250
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    So I’m curious about the need for power meters and Strava to better understand how a bike rides.

    I use neither when I ride, my riding is so varied that it’d be impossible to capture any sort of continuity. I also like to session stuff, take breaks after a tough climb, or just stop and enjoy a well earned urination.

    But what really piques my curiosity is that the bikes reviewed are not road bikes nor are they XC mountain bikes (closest thing to road riding in dirt). I get that Joe is focused on efficiency and Strava, but the OP and the bikes he rode/commented on are not.

    I find the use of Strava and the idea of PRs kinda weird, esp discussed in the context of this thread.

    So why are folks so focused on reviews as a source of information for making buying decisions? Considering the price of bikes these days, buying a bike based on reviews is not unlike buying a car based on reviews. Would you buy a car without a test drive?

    One really nice thing about buying direct from some companies: some have a love it or return it warranty. I got a Fezzari Frame on my radar for the new year.

    Off for a ride in the snow, gotta love backyard trails. Enjoy winter!

    From where I sit: 2019 bike testing.-f0adbef9-01d5-4f1a-add3-6b31fa125336.jpg
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  51. #251
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    From where I sit: 2019 bike testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    So I’m curious about the need for power meters and Strava to better understand how a bike rides.

    I use neither when I ride, my riding is so varied that it’d be impossible to capture any sort of continuity. I also like to session stuff, take breaks after a tough climb, or just stop and enjoy a well earned urination.

    But what really piques my curiosity is that the bikes reviewed are not road bikes nor are they XC mountain bikes (closest thing to road riding in dirt). I get that Joe is focused on efficiency and Strava, but the OP and the bikes he rode/commented on are not.

    I find the use of Strava and the idea of PRs kinda weird, esp discussed in the context of this thread.

    So why are folks so focused on reviews as a source of information for making buying decisions? Considering the price of bikes these days, buying a bike based on reviews is not unlike buying a car based on reviews. Would you buy a car without a test drive?
    Because, just like inflating my 2.35” tires to 40psi, which FEELS fast, a bike that FEELS fast is not necessarily fast according to the watch. Reality and human perception are not the same thing. Whether it’s an XC bike, a “trail” bike, or a DH bike.


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  52. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Because, just like inflating my tires to 40psi, a bike that FEELS fast is not necessarily fast according to the watch. Reality and human perception are not the same thing. Whether it’s an XC bike, a “trail” bike, or a DH bike.


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  53. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    Seat of the pants is very deceptive, up or down, and the clock doesn't lie.

    Except if there is no clock.

  54. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Except if there is no clock.
    True. We each get to define the sport for ourselves.

    Also, your wisdom is needed over in the Polymer Spokes thread.


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  55. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Because, just like inflating my 2.35” tires to 40psi, which FEELS fast, a bike that FEELS fast is not necessarily fast according to the watch. Reality and human perception are not the same thing. Whether it’s an XC bike, a “trail” bike, or a DH bike.
    This is true. For some, the stopwatch matters.

    For others, all that matters is how the bike feels.

    Divergent priorities.

    For still others, it's important to believe they've got the fastest bike.

    Even though they're not the fastest rider.

    My bike is better than yours.

    Welcome to our evolved society.
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  56. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    True. We each get to define the sport for ourselves.

    Also, your wisdom is needed over in the Polymer Spokes thread.

    The proverbial clock dominated my life for close to 20 years. Felt weird to turn my back on it for the first 10+ years after I made the decision. Feels like I waited too long, now.

    Polymer: got a specific link? I unsubbed because it was mostly over my head.

  57. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    XC and DH are at the extremes and everyone knows that. What is not clear is XC vs trail or Trail vs Enduro and even When does Enduro turn to DH?

    I can see XC racers riding trail or enduro bikes for a change up. And is Enduro only for enduro racing? At the far ends of bike spectrum there are clear differences, but as you get in the middle there is a blending. So what about the guy who does an XC race here and there, but most rides trails. But likes how fast and snappy an XC bike is, but also wants to explore more gnar? How big can you go before all the climb or riding to the downhills becomes boring or pain full. What about riding tech that pretty flat or slightly up hill?

    Honestly the best review I have seen was from a fellow rider. Just "joe average". He stated what his bias was for riding and took out two bikes and described how they rode on specific trails. Also how they handled certain features on these trails. Back to back on stuff I have ridden so I know how to put all that in context.
    Maybe the world needs more 25lb 140mm travel 30mm rim 2.6 tire HTs. An all country trail bike. LOL

  58. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by scycllerist View Post
    Maybe the world needs more 25lb 140mm travel 30mm rim 2.6 tire HTs. An all country trail bike. LOL
    AC = All Country. I love it! Yet another two letter acronym for yet another mountain bike sub-discipline.

    Nobody's showing much interest in the obvious slice of mountain biking pie that remains unidentified -- the uphill bike. Oops, wait a minute, these do in fact already exist -- they're called e-bikes.
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  59. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    This is true. For some, the stopwatch matters.

    For others, all that matters is how the bike feels.

    Divergent priorities.

    For still others, it's important to believe they've got the fastest bike.

    Even though they're not the fastest rider.

    My bike is better than yours.

    Welcome to our evolved society.
    =sParty

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    The proverbial clock dominated my life for close to 20 years. Felt weird to turn my back on it for the first 10+ years after I made the decision. Feels like I waited too long, now.

    Polymer: got a specific link? I unsubbed because it was mostly over my head.
    I'm glad I persevered with this thread because this is the main message I'm getting and that's to f*** Strava in the bin/trash as my New Year's Resolution. This time I mean it!!

    I have been a slave to it for too long, to the detriment of my enjoyment. I've slowly been weening myself off it, not checking my times as religiously, but this thread has "evolved" (maybe "devolved" actually?! ) into a great message.

    Like life, it's all about the experience, not how fast it goes...

  60. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    The proverbial clock dominated my life for close to 20 years. Felt weird to turn my back on it for the first 10+ years after I made the decision. Feels like I waited too long, now.

    Polymer: got a specific link? I unsubbed because it was mostly over my head.
    Over in Wheels/Tires.

    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?
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  61. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Over in Wheels/Tires.

    Make your own polymer (UHMWPE) spokes?[/url]

    I know the thread -- but what specifically?

  62. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I know the thread -- but what specifically?
    Misconceptions about wheel building.

    Mostly related to wheel “stiffness”, etc.


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  63. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just J View Post
    I'm glad I persevered with this thread because this is the main message I'm getting and that's to f*** Strava in the bin/trash as my New Year's Resolution. This time I mean it!!

    I have been a slave to it for too long, to the detriment of my enjoyment. I've slowly been weening myself off it, not checking my times as religiously, but this thread has "evolved" (maybe "devolved" actually?! ) into a great message.

    Like life, it's all about the experience, not how fast it goes...
    Right on, brutha. Zen of living. Funny how perceptions change as we make our way.

    Here's one of my favorite quotes.
    Wisdom doesn't necessarily come with age. Sometimes age just shows up all by itself.
    --Tom Wilson
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  64. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    ..
    So why are folks so focused on reviews as a source of information for making buying decisions? Considering the price of bikes these days, buying a bike based on reviews is not unlike buying a car based on reviews. Would you buy a car without a test drive?.
    Reviews help direct me in two ways. 1) which bikes to make the effort to go and test. 2) what to look for when testing. Final decision should always be made by direct contact with the bike.
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  65. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Right on, brutha. Zen of living. Funny how perceptions change as we make our way.

    Here's one of my favorite quotes.


    Have fun out there.
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    Ha ha awesome thanks sParty, you too my friend!

  66. #266
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    To bring it back to Mike's original post for a moment, I want to say that it really spoke to me, and helped me understand or realize that the fitment issues I have been experiencing with my new XL Ripmo are real. They all stem from industry trends, and not me just being picky, which is how my LBS treated them. Really, almost all of the points spoke to me except I do like my 150mm dropper, and would go to 170mm happily.

    Pedal strikes really suck, they are not just about technique when trails where you ride are surfaced by varying heights of rocks on the left, right and straight ahead with little or no dirt to be seen. The low BB issue is costing me $$ in shorter cranks and other adjustments that reduce my suspension travel, or raise my bike through increasing travel. Manufacturers have turned their bikes into a compromise. I should not have to spend more money after the cash I've already dropped on the bike to make the bike rideable where I ride. This is the first bike that has ever had this problem in 20+ years of riding here.

    Wrist and hand pressure: My bike came with very low rise bars that were well below saddle height. I was experiencing numb hands and sore wrists after every ride, and had a custom fitting at my LBS, and the adjustments they made did not help very much. They did not have any other suggestions aside from raising the stem. That did not solve the problem. I ordered a 50mm riser bar, and with my stem on top of 25mm of spacers, it is still below my saddle height (I'm 6'4").

    Ibis (or my LBS) cut the fork steer tube to accomodate 25mm worth of spacers, so this is as far as I can go. The hand pressure is much better, but I would add another 5 to 10mm of spacers if the steer tube could accomodate. I'm a little annoyed that I'm having to spend money on parts to make it work for me, and Ibis or LBS took it upon themselves to cut my steer tube short and limit my options.

    I am doing what I have to do to make it work, and I will have this bike for a very long time. Every tweak and adjustment makes the bike better for me, and I am dialing it in. The handling, climbing, descending and overall performance are exceptional, but some of these industry trends are not good.
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    That was my point, lost on some apparently

    I stopped wearing a watch twenty years ago, I have no interest in having time control my life any more than it already does.

    I feel for folks who don't know how time impacts their interaction with life.

    Not gonna judge Strava users, in time they'll judge themselves.

    Off topic a bit: Yesterday I met with a couple who are in their eighties. The lady is struggling with memory issues, parkinsons, she has gradually become more sedentary, rarely gets out of the house, mostly watches TV and sleep/rests in bed. The man stays busy working around the house, doing chores, taking care of the lady.

    I was seeing them because the lady is struggling with depression. Anyone wanna guess why she's depressed?

    So I told her that her problem was not likely chemistry; she's already taking Cymbalta. I suggested to her that she'd let herself slide over time into a stagnant state and she was depressed because she wasn't doing anything meaningful.

    I suggested she get out of the house, do chores, add structure to her life, which would serve a couple purposes: Fill her day and give her a sense of satisfaction.

    Will she do what I suggested? Probably not, people rarely make changes unless they initiate it themselves, but it never hurts to try

    So if Strava users feel satisfied, then by all means, just do it, but make sure that the satisfaction you feel is sustaining vs diminishing your zest for life.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Except if there is no clock.
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  68. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65 View Post
    The low BB issue is costing me $$ in shorter cranks and other adjustments that reduce my suspension travel, or raise my bike through increasing travel. Manufacturers have turned their bikes into a compromise. I should not have to spend more money after the cash I've already dropped on the bike to make the bike rideable where I ride.
    If you buy a bike that has a low BB by design and you don't want a low BB then that's not on the manufacturer.

  69. #269
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    Wut are you saying?!

    You mean I gotta suck it up because I didn't know better when I bought the bike??

    But the reviews said the bike was "awesomesauce"!

    My last bike had a low bb, shorter cranks helped, but it was still low... but I knew that when I bought it. Still had fun riding it, but I still sold it.

    So what is a minimum BB height in people's mind that doesn't require drastic measures like shock bushings or shorter cranks?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    If you buy a bike that has a low BB by design and you don't want a low BB then that's not on the manufacturer.
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  70. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post

    You mean I gotta suck it up because I didn't know better when I bought the bike??

    But the reviews said the bike was "awesomesauce"!
    No, spend the money to get shorter cranks if you want. It probably is awesomesauce.

    So what is a minimum BB height in people's mind that doesn't require drastic measures like shock bushings or shorter cranks?
    The BB height on my Hightower LT is lower than the Ripmo and it's fine with 175mm cranks.

  71. #271
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    From where I sit: 2019 bike testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    No, spend the money to get shorter cranks if you want. It probably is awesomesauce.



    The BB height on my Hightower LT is lower than the Ripmo and it's fine with 175mm cranks.
    A lot depends on where you ride. I can count the pedal strikes on one hand on my old Niner ridden on the same trails with 175mm cranks and 100mm rear shock. It has the same BB height as the Ripmo. My bad for not paying enough attention to that, or assuming the Ibis would pedal the same.


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  72. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65 View Post
    A lot depends on where you ride. I can count the pedal strikes on one hand on my old Niner ridden on the same trails with 175mm cranks and 100mm rear shock. It has the same BB height as the Ripmo. My bad for not paying enough attention to that, or assuming the Ibis would pedal the same.


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    Still a skills issue even though you ride the rockiest place on the planet. Just watched a video of a guy on instagram climbing portal trail in Moab on a "new school" bike. He didn't seem to have any issues with pedal strikes. Just need to learn when to pedal and when to not. Suspension design plays a role as well, big difference between VPP and DW link, FSR, etc.
    Denver, CO

  73. #273
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    I was just razing you, it's unfortunate that the bike was designed with a low bb, but short cranks may make it tolerable.

    If not, then step two is get a different frame, might I suggest a Smash
    Quote Originally Posted by isleblue65 View Post
    A lot depends on where you ride. I can count the pedal strikes on one hand on my old Niner ridden on the same trails with 175mm cranks and 100mm rear shock. It has the same BB height as the Ripmo. My bad for not paying enough attention to that, or assuming the Ibis would pedal the same.


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  74. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    Still a skills issue even though you ride the rockiest place on the planet. Just watched a video of a guy on instagram climbing portal trail in Moab on a "new school" bike. He didn't seem to have any issues with pedal strikes. Just need to learn when to pedal and when to not. Suspension design plays a role as well, big difference between VPP and DW link, FSR, etc.

    I'd like to see this video.

    Meanwhile -- c'mon Nick. I'm at least an average rider skills-wise and I live in a place that can be defined as "kinda rocky". It isn't as simple as learning* "when to pedal and when to not": the steeper and techier the trail, the less choice you have in the matter.

    * - If it was your average enduro monkey could probably figure it out...


  75. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I'd like to see this video.

    Meanwhile -- c'mon Nick. I'm at least an average rider skills-wise and I live in a place that can be defined as "kinda rocky". It isn't as simple as learning* "when to pedal and when to not": the steeper and techier the trail, the less choice you have in the matter.

    * - If it was your average enduro monkey could probably figure it out...

    Hah! I’m not saying it doesn’t make it harder but it’s something that can be over came and adapted to. It seems like a lot of people jump on something lower for one lap and say “this sucks” without really giving it a chance or getting used to it. Especially in the case of “enduro” bikes that are designed around a downhill bias.

    Kyle Mears had it on his story check it out. Pretty impressive! He’s on a Jekyll now but whoever he was with looked like they were on a Santa Cruz.
    Denver, CO

  76. #276
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    Somewhere between 11 and 15, the truth lies.

  77. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    Hah! I’m not saying it doesn’t make it harder but it’s something that can be over came and adapted to.

    To some extent, we are agreed.

    Next time you pass through town -- and when there's not snow on the ground -- let's ride.

  78. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    To some extent, we are agreed.

    Next time you pass through town -- and when there's not snow on the ground -- let's ride.
    Sounds good!
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  79. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    AC = All Country. I love it! Yet another two letter acronym for yet another mountain bike sub-discipline.

    Nobody's showing much interest in the obvious slice of mountain biking pie that remains unidentified -- the uphill bike. Oops, wait a minute, these do in fact already exist -- they're called e-bikes.
    =sParty
    Yeah...just think, if the 'e' in e-bikes stood for 'elevation', wonder if things would be different.
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  80. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    Still a skills issue even though you ride the rockiest place on the planet. Just watched a video of a guy on instagram climbing portal trail in Moab on a "new school" bike. He didn't seem to have any issues with pedal strikes. Just need to learn when to pedal and when to not. Suspension design plays a role as well, big difference between VPP and DW link, FSR, etc.
    That is one situation- climbing where ratcheting works. Again there are places on this planet that are flat and rocky as hell and its no fun to ratchet through.
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  81. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    That is one situation- climbing where ratcheting works. Again there are places on this planet that are flat and rocky as hell and its no fun to ratchet through.

    Not sure I understand what you're saying, Rob. Clarify?

  82. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Not sure I understand what you're saying, Rob. Clarify?
    SD keeps saying its a skills issue period and I'm saying it not that simple.

    Imagine a flat trail- no moment to carry you through. Now a dump truck comes along and unloads a couple tons of large river rock. Throw in a bunch of roots and the higher bb preference isn't from a lack of skill but based on terrain. You have to pedal your entire way through- screw constant ratcheting to avoid pedal strikes.
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  83. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    SD keeps saying its a skills issue period and I'm saying it not that simple.

    Imagine a flat trail- no moment to carry you through. Now a dump truck comes along and unloads a couple tons of large river rock. Throw in a bunch of roots and the higher bb preference isn't from a lack of skill but based on terrain. You have to pedal your entire way through- screw constant ratcheting to avoid pedal strikes.

    Gotcha. Agreed. I've been making the same point -- but about climbing.

  84. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    SD keeps saying its a skills issue period and I'm saying it not that simple.

    Imagine a flat trail- no moment to carry you through. Now a dump truck comes along and unloads a couple tons of large river rock. Throw in a bunch of roots and the higher bb preference isn't from a lack of skill but based on terrain. You have to pedal your entire way through- screw constant ratcheting to avoid pedal strikes.
    I agree. At Annadel St Park we have flat extremely cobblestone surfaced trails where each is within pedal strike height, and we have technical climbs where the rocks are sharp and thin, and squeeze your tires as you power between them. Unless you are Superman, a pause in your stroke to ratchet your position will kill your momentum.

    Anyone who has been riding for a few years knows which way to round a rock to avoid a strike, or has a sense by looking 20 feet ahead based on their current pedal position and cadence whether their pedal is going to hit that upcoming rock. My senses are becoming necessarily more keen on this low BB Ibis, but it doesn’t mean I don’t want to improve it. And on certain sections of trail, pedal strikes are unavoidable.


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  85. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    SD keeps saying its a skills issue period and I'm saying it not that simple.

    Imagine a flat trail- no moment to carry you through. Now a dump truck comes along and unloads a couple tons of large river rock. Throw in a bunch of roots and the higher bb preference isn't from a lack of skill but based on terrain. You have to pedal your entire way through- screw constant ratcheting to avoid pedal strikes.
    In Frederick we have a lot of situations like this. The otherday my wife and I were out. Theres a spot that after a slight downhill its flat and rocky, its a slow craw while picking your lines for about a 1/4 mile. This situation is all over this trail net work.

    My wife is new to tech so i was waiting at the end for her. Down the hill comes 3 guys 2 with hightowers and a Ripmo. They all try to ratchet through but give up and walk it. As my wife trucks along. Her BB is 13.5 she had to ratchet some of it. Lower bikes dont look very fun lol.

    Ratcheting isca skill most people should learn. But having some full peddle rotations to keep momentum most yhe time is preferable.

  86. #286
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    He's gonna continue to say that because he is the best rider on the mountain.

    Don't argue with a fool on a street corner....

    He’s so special, let’s call him microdissector, faster than a speeding enduro, stronger than an XC racer, able to break a Smash between his testicles. Ah, to be such a man, it makes me quiver like jello.

    Mike, you should take him on FMOH.

    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    SD keeps saying its a skills issue period and I'm saying it not that simple.

    Imagine a flat trail- no moment to carry you through. Now a dump truck comes along and unloads a couple tons of large river rock. Throw in a bunch of roots and the higher bb preference isn't from a lack of skill but based on terrain. You have to pedal your entire way through- screw constant ratcheting to avoid pedal strikes.
    Last edited by Nurse Ben; 1 Week Ago at 10:50 PM.
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  87. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    Still a skills issue even though you ride the rockiest place on the planet. .
    It is a combination of both. For some terrain a low BB is a non issues. For other terrain you move from the point of being able to just pedal to the point you have to watch each pedal stroke and really focus on it. If you do it may be possible to clear the same terrain with a low BB, but sometimes it is just more work. It is very much like riding a rigid bike vs a 170mm bike. You can argue you should be able to ride rigid everywhere, but sometimes it is not the right tool for the job. Sometimes you need a 170mm bike because you don't have crazy skills merely ok skills. Sometimes however the rigid is really the right tool. Thankfully we have wide choice of bikes to suit the trails and riding styles, but I think some other features are being pulled alot by industry "trends" rather than actually understanding market needs and how they vary.

    In the end I think Mike's post is really about that. Where are big mfg trying to follow "trends" rather than really engineering a bike to suit needs.
    Joe
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  88. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by JACKL View Post
    Somewhere between 11 and 15, the truth lies.
    https://forums.mtbr.com/bike-frame-d...ling-6177.html

    https://forums.mtbr.com/ellsworth/id...ents-4755.html

    Maybe for the Truth, but the Id was absolutely crazy! 15+"!!
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  89. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    He's gonna continue to say that because he is the best rider on the mountain.

    Don't argue with a fool on a street corner....

    Mike, you should take him on FMOH.
    More name calling I know a ton of nurses and you definitely sound like the least fun. I love that you assume I haven’t ridden the western slope / Utah, or a bunch of desert riding... I live in Colorado afterall and we all migrate west in spring through fall. Why don’t you join us? Dirtbike trails generally aren’t my thing but I’m game. Based on how much you constantly argue with anyone who disagrees with your opinion on riding styles you could probably teach me a TON. Consider me a sponge and teach me the ways! Especially with your 160mm crank arms. I’m currently dealing with back issues and haven’t touched my bike in over a month now (must be my 175mm crank arms!) but I still have 200 days of riding in this year. Hopefully I’ll be good-to-go by spring. You join us on any ride you pick so you can “show me who’s boss" yourself instead of egging Mike on. Then since I'm doing any ride you choose, you can come race my class in an Enduro of my choosing... Since you ride an "enduro" bike and a lot of the bikes in this review are "enduro" bikes afterall. We can do a review afterwards and talk more about crank arms made for kids bikes and pedal strikes and how much bikes in general nowadays just plain suck. I'm most likely having back surgery in the near future but hoping to be good for the Santa Fe BME in the end of May. Super technical riding there and 8000' of pedal transfer climbs what do you say? Last year I was 3 seconds off the podium in Expert Open with a stage win on the most technical stage. *Almost* the fastest guy on the mountain in my class but probably most definitely in this thread Let's ride!
    Last edited by Streetdoctor; 1 Week Ago at 02:16 PM.
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  90. #290
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    I've got ~14" on my Smash with 29 x 2.6 wheels. I've been running 27.5 x 2.8 the last month, pedal strikes went up with the shorter wheels, but not to the point of preventing me from making moves, still running ~13.5"

    I also liked riding my Fatillac with 27.5 x 3.8, it was ~13.7" which worked pretty good for rocky terrain.

    For a fs rock crawling rig, 14" is good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
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  91. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    That is one situation- climbing where ratcheting works. Again there are places on this planet that are flat and rocky as hell and its no fun to ratchet through.
    True but an enduro bike is a poor choice for flat as hell terrain.

  92. #292
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    I mean basically all this thread has ended up saying is buy a bike that works for your terrain and style of riding.
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  93. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93EXCivic View Post
    I mean basically all this thread has ended up saying is buy a bike that works for your terrain and style of riding.
    exactly! Common sense right?
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  94. #294
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    Something we can agree on, done without bragging, much better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    exactly! Common sense right?
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  95. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    More name calling I know a ton of nurses and you definitely sound like the least fun. I love that you assume I haven’t ridden the western slope / Utah, or a bunch of desert riding... I live in Colorado afterall and we all migrate west in spring through fall. Why don’t you join us? Dirtbike trails generally aren’t my thing but I’m game. Based on how much you constantly argue with anyone who disagrees with your opinion on riding styles you could probably teach me a TON. Consider me a sponge and teach me the ways! Especially with your 160mm crank arms. I’m currently dealing with back issues and haven’t touched my bike in over a month now (must be my 175mm crank arms!) but I still have 200 days of riding in this year. Hopefully I’ll be good-to-go by spring. You join us on any ride you pick so you can “show me who’s boss" yourself instead of egging Mike on. Then since I'm doing any ride you choose, you can come race my class in an Enduro of my choosing... Since you ride an "enduro" bike and a lot of the bikes in this review are "enduro" bikes afterall. We can do a review afterwards and talk more about crank arms made for kids bikes and pedal strikes and how much bikes in general nowadays just plain suck. I'm most likely having back surgery in the near future but hoping to be good for the Santa Fe BME in the end of May. Super technical riding there and 8000' of pedal transfer climbs what do you say? Last year I was 3 seconds off the podium in Expert Open with a stage win on the most technical stage. *Almost* the fastest guy on the mountain in my class but probably most definitely in this thread Let's ride!
    I want to come play....... but for the pure entertainment value. That and I like riding bikes.

  96. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    I want to come play....... but for the pure entertainment value. That and I like riding bikes.
    I'm always game to ride with everyone

    I think he's a psych nurse... people who get into that are usually trying to diagnose themselves That's why he won't directly engage but still name calls from a distance.

    I just miss my bike.
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  97. #297
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    Did anyone mention flip chips?

    There was far too much chest beating in this thread there for a bit.

    I think more bike needs more flip chips with more dramatic BB raising/lowering, or better yet 3 setting flip chips.
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  98. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    Did anyone mention flip chips?

    There was far too much chest beating in this thread there for a bit.

    I think more bike needs more flip chips with more dramatic BB raising/lowering, or better yet 3 setting flip chips.
    Or do like what transition did with the Gran Mal back in the day. flip chip on the chain or seat stay I cant remember, plus like 4 or 5 different shock sizes and locations for different travel. Everything from 5" of travel to 8.75" of travel. All with a 74 degree seat angle. Probably the most versatile bike I have ever owned. Just with the seat tube was not so short or having a 10lb frame was a bit much. But man was it fun to move stuff around to just try different geo.

  99. #299
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    I would be happy with the ability to run different travel on both front and rear, as well as change the BB significantly in either travel setup.

    Id love a bike that could run 110mm rear and 120mm front (which fits most light trailforks like Ribbon SL and 34 SC), but swap a fork, shock and beefy tires and you have something that can handle more abusive terrain at 140/150mm. 29x3 or 275x3.5 capability and youve got a recipe for a frame that could last a decade...if standards dont change before.

    A few manufacturers already do this, but its cool to see it on more bikes.

  100. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    I would be happy with the ability to run different travel on both front and rear, as well as change the BB significantly in either travel setup.

    Id love a bike that could run 110mm rear and 120mm front (which fits most light trailforks like Ribbon SL and 34 SC), but swap a fork, shock and beefy tires and you have something that can handle more abusive terrain at 140/150mm. 29x3 or 275x3.5 capability and youve got a recipe for a frame that could last a decade...if standards dont change before.

    A few manufacturers already do this, but its cool to see it on more bikes.
    My Lenz Lunch Box offered that flexibility somewhat. When I had it I had both the 5'' and 6'' rockers and a Talas 36 set to 130/160.

    So in less than 10 minutes I could go from a 160/152 to a 130/127 bike using the same shock. In the end I just didn't need the long travel and the frame/ fork weight had me go in a different direction
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