Walt Works frame NOT right - public challenge to Walt- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1

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    Walt Works frame NOT right - public challenge to Walt

    I recently built up my Walt Works frame.

    Unfortunately, he made an error.

    This is a public challenge to Walt to own up to his mistake and set things right.

    I asked for two sets of bottle cage bolts - one on the down tube and the other on the seat tube.

    The down tube ones are fine.

    The set on the seat tube, however, ARE TOO LOW.

    Regardless of the type of bottle cage I use, there is not enough clearance. This means the bottle hits the down tube before it can be set completely within the cage.

    The seat tube is 14" center to center.

    The bolt placement could have easily been placed 1/2" inch higher and there would have been sufficient clearance for the bottle.

    I emailed Walt and here was his response:

    There is no bottle cage standard, unfortunately, and I have to place them quite
    low to accomodate both top and downswing
    front derailleurs.

    Cateye cages work well, among others.

    -Walt


    Two flaws in this reply:

    1) Cateye will not work; neither will king nor blackburn nor profile design carbon (which is what I intended). All of the bottle cages mentioned have a space of about 1 1/4" from the bottom bolt hole to the lower lip of the cage.

    2) Walt should have spotted this pitfall before the frame was completed and contacted me so we could have worked this out. Afterall, that's what a custom builder is supposed to do. He could have said, "hey, I can raise the bolt hole placement - but you will have to use a top-swing derailleur"

    As it stands, the bolt placement will accomodate top or bottom swing - BUT NOT A WATER BOTTLE CAGE THAT HOLDS A WATER BOTTLE PROPERLY.

    Now many of you out there are calling me a whiner. I'm sure you want me to just plug up the holes (on the seat tube and my mouth) and go ride.

    However - this bike was specifically designed for ultra long-distance riding. I had hoped to use this for the Kokopelli Race in May.

    Every space on the bike, therefore, needs to be used in the most efficient manner possible.

    Every space on my pack is parceled out to fit a 100oz bladder, two extra water bottles, extra clothing, food, and tools. That is why I need two sets of water bottle cages on the bike - so I can carry 200oz of fluid total.

    Let's not forget the 60-hour work weeks I had to put in to get the extra cash for the new build.

    And c'mon folks - a custom builder is supposed to design a bike the customer ordered.

    This is a public challenge to Walt. I emailed him and asked for a refund because the frame did not meet my specifications.
    Last edited by 514Climber; 03-22-2006 at 01:38 AM.

  2. #2
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    I realize you're upset, but this a private matter for you and Walt to resolve.

    Criticism and public challenges will get you nowhere, and you might regret your words later.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  3. #3

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    I did try to resolve it.

    I got one curt email (as quoted in the first post).

    And those in the market for a custom 29er frame need to know such matters before they can make a final decision on which builder to go with. This is, after all, a forum.

  4. #4
    giddy up!
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    This is most definitely a private matter between you and Walt....the rest of us need not be included.

    Give Walt a chance to respond. I'm sure he'll take care of everything.

    B
    www.thepathbikeshop.com

  5. #5

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    Interesting...

    but I'm not convinced.

    Back in October, when I paid in full for the frame, I went into my favorite LBS in Salt Lake. It's called the Wild Rose. Those guys are quite hardcore 29er rigid types. Anyway, I happily told them about my new frame from the great Walt and they just rolled their eyes. When I asked them for an explanation, they told me a story of how one guy brought in a Walt Frame and the threading on the english bottom bracket was backwards.

    Consumers need to know such things. I realize I'm coming across as vindictive, but you and the Enel are coming across to me as people who would rather not let mistakes be made public.

    Why is it that when a poster doesn't like a certain component, you don't lecture him on making it public...? Because the company is some mega giant...? If that's the case, and consumers never air their feelings about small businesses, those businesses will know that they will NOT be held accountable.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel
    I realize you're upset, but this a private matter for you and Walt to resolve.

    Criticism and public challenges will get you nowhere, and you might regret your words later.
    I disagree completely - this is the right way to go about it. Of course he might regret his words, so what? Isn't that the point. Sheesh.

  7. #7
    giddy up!
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    This is a public challenge to Walt. I emailed him and asked for a refund because the frame did not meet my specifications.
    Has Walt responded to this particular email that you speak of?

    B
    www.thepathbikeshop.com

  8. #8

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    Two phone calls

    I made.

    I also sent three emails.

    I got that one curt reply.

    In all fairness, I initiated my contact to Walt around 10:45 pm mountain time.

    However, let me stress the anger of paying in full, waiting 4 months, and getting a bolt-placement that is absolutely not functional.

    Go to the Endurance Racing forum and search the KTR threads. I've been planning for this race since late Oct/early Novemeber. I had the frame spec'd out for what I knew I would need.

  9. #9
    giddy up!
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    I made.

    I also sent three emails.

    I got that one curt reply.

    In all fairness, I initiated my contact to Walt around 10:45 pm mountain time.

    However, let me stress the anger of paying in full, waiting 4 months, and getting a bolt-placement that is absolutely not functional.

    Go to the Endurance Racing forum and search the KTR threads. I've been planning for this race since late Oct/early Novemeber. I had the frame spec'd out for what I knew I would need.
    I understand that you're upset. I also understand the magnitude of the KTR....I'll be there as well(I started that thread on the E board)

    However, Walt really hasn't had a chance to reply. He sent you one reply with what he thought was a solution and then probably went to bed. In the meantime he's unable to fix the problem for you or defend himself in this now public scenario.

    I'd hold off on the public complaints until Walt confirms with you that he won't fix the problem.

    B
    www.thepathbikeshop.com

  10. #10

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    I hope Walt proves you right

    There is a reason I'm coming out all guns blazing:

    Because of PayPal's 45-day policy, I have no other recourse. (I'll double check with them tommorrow)

    I lost a signifant amount of time waiting for the frame to be built. I could have easily gone to a local shop in town, bought a Paragon, and got a feel for the 29er over winter (in southern utah).

    I will most likely lose more time if Walt offers a refund and I return the frame.

    I have to either look for another 29er frame or ride my 26er, which, as past results indicate, is a disadvantage on the KTR.

    Make no mistake - I have no illusions of placing among the top finishers. However, I do like the feeling of achieving the best results possible.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    1) Cateye will not work; neither will king nor blackburn nor profile design carbon (which is what I intended). All of the bottle cages mentioned have a space of about 1 1/4" from the bottom bolt hole to the lower lip of the cage.
    The Cateye BC-100 cage should work fine. I measure the bottom hole at ~5/8" from the bottom of the cage.
    cateyecage.jpg

    If it is still a bit low the cage can be trim a bit without weakening it. As is the BC-100 is one of the strongest, best holding, lightest and cheapest cages available.
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  12. #12

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    Thanks

    for trying to resolve this. (and btw, I took your previous advice and dumped my xtr rapid rise for the xtr traditional)

    However, I really like my Profile Design carbon cages.

    And I still feel that I shouldn't have to tweak out a piece of plastic and hope it holds during 142 miles or self-supported riding. And you know as well as any that 24 ounces of lost fluid can be a major factor under such circumstances. I don't need that nagging doubt in the back of my head.

    I visualized this design since October and it fell short.

    Ultimately, this is a question of the customer not getting what he ordered and paid in good faith for...

    Thanks just the same.

  13. #13
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    You may have waited a long time for the frame, but not like way longer than projected like happens with the average Dean. Sounds like you are making a lot of noise, discrediting a builder, a little too soon. I don't think any builder is flawless, at least not custom builders. They're not machines.
    Right now you come across as a very bad customer, and the builder got really unlucky to have one of the rare imperfections happen on your frame.
    Did you see a drawing up front or let it all in the hands of the builder to choose to his best judgement?

    Seems you're overdoing this this, and I am wondering whether such a rant is justified, or should be pulled. Nothing to do with walt being Man of the Year, not any builder seems to deserve this so quickly after a problem is identified.
    Too much noise for somthing like a single water bottle. You'll survive the day-long race, and lose maybe 10 seconds for pulling out the extra bottle you stuck somewhere smart.

    You're doing the builder much more harm than he's done you. You have a bike that seems to ride just fine, just some details to be sorted.

    Good luck, also in the race!

    J

  14. #14
    Needed Less ~ Did More
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    And I still feel that I shouldn't have to tweak out a piece of plastic and hope it holds during 142 miles or self-supported riding. And you know as well as any that 24 ounces of lost fluid can be a major factor under such circumstances. I don't need that nagging doubt in the back of my head.

    I visualized this design since October and it fell short.

    Ultimately, this is a question of the customer not getting what he ordered and paid in good faith for...

    Thanks just the same.
    I don't think that trimming a couple of mm off the lower bolt hole will make much difference to the strength of the cage, as long as the bolt head has enough material round it to provide a good clamping area. Yes in an ideal world everything would fit together perfectly with no fettling* but its an imperfect world

    I have been in a similar situation as you a few years back, but the "problem" was sorted with a little inginuity and adjustment and I rode the result for years after. I'm sure Walt will be back to you ASAP once he is up.

    The problem with "visualising" a bike and actually designing and building it is that the "idea" is not constrained by the dimensions of the available parts

    Good luck in the KTR, sounds like a great ride.

    Alex

    *Fetting: to adjust, alter or bodge something (Yorkshire dialect)
    "Put any one on one of these singlespeed bikes and they could not help but have fun"
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  15. #15
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    for trying to resolve this. (and btw, I took your previous advice and dumped my xtr rapid rise for the xtr traditional)

    However, I really like my Profile Design carbon cages.

    And I still feel that I shouldn't have to tweak out a piece of plastic and hope it holds during 142 miles or self-supported riding. And you know as well as any that 24 ounces of lost fluid can be a major factor under such circumstances. I don't need that nagging doubt in the back of my head.
    I understand you wanting to use a cage you know.

    I have been using the Cateye cages for nearly 20 years for bottles and light batteries. Never had one rip off the bike (I do use washers between the cage and bolt head). Have only dropped 3-4 bottles in that time and those were from worn 5+ year old cages. The BC-100 is unbreakable.

    I will send you a brand new one (and washers) tomorrow if you will use it.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  16. #16

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    Pull this if you want - just know this

    On some of those 30+ mph descents, I may not have the luxury of finding the bottle (if it launches). I may not even know the bottle was missing until a mile or more after the fact.

    I didn't know that Walt was 29er guy of the year. So, I'm supposed to be deferential and be a good little customer...?

    My bet is that for every one of comments like yours, there will be at least one or more people out there that are privately grateful for my candor.

    And after all those put-downs, you wish me good luck on the race...? I'll take my well-wishes from those I respect.

    People like you are well established in this forum. That doesn't mean you're always right. It also doesn't mean you have the right to shut me down.
    Last edited by 514Climber; 03-22-2006 at 02:17 AM.

  17. #17

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    Thanks for the offer, however...

    the Profile Carbons are designed in such a way that I can pull the bottle out and up (not just straight up like the traditional mtn cages).

    This is very important on such tight geometry. It's also a motion I'm comfortable with.

    And the carbon keeps the cage stiff enough that it holds the bottles on the toughest descents.

  18. #18
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    Either I wrote it wrong or you didn't read it as a meant to.
    Not trying to be right, just to get you to calm down rather than shooting around you in blind fury because your dream wasn't 100% met and not repaired within 24 hours.
    It's a bike. Probably the most affordable custom one you could get, too. Give it another day. You're doing no-one justice with your rant, not Walt, and especially not yourself, and what's that about "respect"?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    Either I wrote it wrong or you didn't read it as a meant to.
    Not trying to be right, just to get you to calm down rather than shooting around you in blind fury because your dream wasn't 100% met and not repaired within 24 hours.
    It's a bike. Probably the most affordable custom one you could get, too. Give it another day. You're doing no-one justice with your rant, not Walt, and especially not yourself, and what's that about "respect"?
    If the frame maker proves him wrong then we'll all laugh at him. But the frame maker should not be intimidated by this posting into doing any favors for the poster in order to get better PR. Just the truth, nothing but the truth.

  20. #20

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    You're adding nothing to this.

    Quote Originally Posted by bwolmarans
    If the frame maker proves him wrong then we'll all laugh at him. But the frame maker should not be intimidated by this posting into doing any favors for the poster in order to get better PR. Just the truth, nothing but the truth.
    And how is the frame maker going to prove me wrong...?

    And I'm not trying to muscle anyone.

    Like I said in an earlier post: when someone gripes about shimano or sram or whoever, no one raises a fuss.

    When someone gripes about a small businessman, I'm some malcontent or some grifter trying to get a free deal.

    Remember - I'm the one who lost time. I'm the one who lost money on shipping. I'm the one who lost money on components that will specifically fit this frame (how many 26.8 frames are out there...? Not many, which means I just paid $85 bucks for a Thudbuster and another $10 for a Salsa collar that will not fit most other bikes)

    Right now - I'm laughing at you.

  21. #21

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    I was about to give it another day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    Either I wrote it wrong or you didn't read it as a meant to.
    Not trying to be right, just to get you to calm down rather than shooting around you in blind fury because your dream wasn't 100% met and not repaired within 24 hours.
    It's a bike. Probably the most affordable custom one you could get, too. Give it another day. You're doing no-one justice with your rant, not Walt, and especially not yourself, and what's that about "respect"?
    As donkey stated, give Walt a chance to read my email and hear my voicemail.

    You, however, insisted on branding me a malcontent. And I chose to respond.

    I re-read your post; it still comes across as alot of put-downs with a sprinkle of "good-luck" at the end (as if that makes it all okay).

    It's not.

  22. #22
    83 feet less per minute
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    I understand that you are upset. But the more you hurl insults at other posters, the more sympathetic we might all be to Walt. I think you should not post for a couple of days and cool off a bit. And also, if I were you, I'd take Shiggy up on his offer and at least try the cage. As far as the 26.8 seat tube, you knew this when you ordered it right? Before you flame me, reread some of the remarks you have made about other posters. Do you think they deserved your ire?
    Want to ride in this life and the next? Ask me how.

  23. #23
    mtbr member
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    Buy a Camelback and just enjoy your new frame?


    runs away to avoid getting hit.

  24. #24

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    Re-read my earlier post

    It goes into great detail of why I need that second cage on the bike.

  25. #25

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    I've stepped away from the office

    to prep up my road bike.

    When I returned I saw your post.

    Trust me - I'm plenty calm.

    You can take which ever side you want. I am making public what needs to be said.

    And it just occurred to me that, since Walt is so highly regarded within the 29er community, my challenging him is in effect challenging those within that community... Look who is taking things personally...

    It's quite empowering to side with the majority, isn't it?

    It's even more empowering to say something others are scared to.

    Oh, and your comment about the 26.8 post is misguided. I bought the post on the premise that it will go on a frame that I will adore. If Walt accepts my request for a refund, I will send the frame back to him and my next frame will most likely take a 27.2 because that is the more common size.

    As for Shiggy's offer, I'm going to respectfully decline. No one should be in a position to order a custom frame and compromise what goes on that frame because the builder dropped the ball.

  26. #26
    Needed Less ~ Did More
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    I don't think Walt "dropped the ball"

    There is no bottle cage standard, unfortunately, and I have to place them quite
    low to accomodate both top and downswing
    front derailleurs.

    Cateye cages work well, among others.

    -Walt
    You would have been more annoyed if the bottle cage fitted but the front mech didn't

    As for siding with the majority, I have never met Walt (and if anything he is a competitor ) but I have worked in retail / manufacture to know good service when I see it (from both the supplier and customer, its a two way thing)

    Like you said above, see what Walt says and avoid antagonising the other forum members

    Alex
    "Put any one on one of these singlespeed bikes and they could not help but have fun"
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    Otis Guy talking about klunkers c1976

  27. #27
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    my take...

    So let’s review the facts…

    You have a sweet steel frame that should fit you perfectly and all the parts to go with it.

    You want a full refund because of a bottle cage placement issue, when there is clearly a workaround for the problem (courtesy of Shiggy).

    OK, here’s my personal take. This is not an attack. Everybody has their own way of doing things, level of expectations, etc. This is mine: Blindly refusing to try another cage simply because you like the old design seems a tad on the silly side, when you acknowledge that you will, “most likely lose more time if Walt offers a refund” and you return the frame. I can’t really sympathize too much with you on the motion associated with pulling a bottle from a cage, as I haven’t used a water bottle in about 10 years. In my book, cages are for holding batteries. I know you have a need for your bottles. That's cool.

    I had a small issue with my Walt, but I worked around it. Could I have been a prick about it and insisted that it wasn’t right and wasted everyone’s time trying to fix it? Sure. But I didn’t. And I’m happier than a pig in…well, you know.

    Walt is a good guy. Surely you have read all of his praises in this forum, which may or may not be why you chose to go with him as your builder. He’ll do whatever it takes to make things right.

    At this point though, if I was Walt, I would cut you off, refund your money and be done with you. Then I’d sell that frame for just under the normal price and make somebody extraordinarily happy that they got a sweet frame from a custom builder and didn’t have to wait four months for it.

    Good luck in the KTR.
    Last edited by nzumbi; 03-22-2006 at 06:13 AM.

  28. #28
    And He was Not
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzumbi

    At this point though, if I was Walt, I would cut you off, refund your money and be done with you. Then Iíd sell that frame for just under the normal price and make somebody extraordinarily happy that they got a sweet frame from a custom builder and didnít have to wait four months for it.
    Prolly a good idea... At this point
    The Truth is out there. Here it isThe TRUTH

  29. #29
    DiscoCowboy
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    Many ways of handling the same situation

    negative usually only receives negative back.

    I think using the forum to let people know a builder isn't standing behind their builds is one thing, but to offer a public challenge may not be the best idea. Hopefully your ready for any repercusions that may become of this. Walt is generally held in high regard. I got a fork from him and he was very helpful, spoke to him on the phone, super nice. Maybe you caught him on a bad day, not feeling well? Not trying to make excuses, but maybe the was a valid reason, just a thought.

    Frame building is tough, sounds like a grand idea, but there are a lot of draw backs, a lot of time spent doing things besides actually building frames and not riding. Plus once you get into low top tubes like that 14" and running waterbottles, he's not checking to make sure every possible sombination of parts works, that's crazy. I didn't see it but did you tell him what cages and bottle you wanted to run? If not well you may be S.O.L. because there are some that may work according to other posts, now if you did agree on the cages and bottle, different story.

    Good luck I hope everything works out.
    -j

  30. #30

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    been trolling this thread

    I think everyone should back off the banter about "you dont need a cage" or "the bottle mount is only good for batteries". that point is dead...the guy wants 2 functioning cages...period. Dont argue what he needs..only he knows that.

    As for time...514 climber mentions paypal and their 45 day BS clause....has anyone ever used this successfully? I have tried and they basically send some email, but offer ZERO protection to the consumer. 514, I would say do what you want, but in my experience, dont use paypals time line to justify anything.

    As for a small business...they get no perks over a large business. They should not get any perks either. I personally think big businesses are destroying a lot of things I love, but I can only act with my pocket book.

    I sincerely hope that you get your problems resolved, and the frame gets repaired/replaced to your satisfaction....I think you would be perceived as completely UNreasonable if you expect this to happen overnight...after all how long did it take to create your frame in the first place?

    I am sure that They will respond to you soon, and I trust that you will share that response (not necessarily verbatim) with this forum. Then we can all collectively (hopefully silently and personally) decide if this small business performed up to our own reasonable expectations.

    If this thread gets pulled, A major dis service would be done to the manufacturer. We need to see the response in order to restore confidence in this builder.....perhaps it should be moved to the sub directory (manufactures news)

    thanks

  31. #31
    Steel and teeth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allroy
    negative usually only receives negative back.

    I think using the forum to let people know a builder isn't standing behind their builds is one thing, but to offer a public challenge may not be the best idea. Hopefully your ready for any repercusions that may become of this. Walt is generally held in high regard. I got a fork from him and he was very helpful, spoke to him on the phone, super nice. Maybe you caught him on a bad day, not feeling well? Not trying to make excuses, but maybe the was a valid reason, just a thought.

    Frame building is tough, sounds like a grand idea, but there are a lot of draw backs, a lot of time spent doing things besides actually building frames and not riding. Plus once you get into low top tubes like that 14" and running waterbottles, he's not checking to make sure every possible sombination of parts works, that's crazy. I didn't see it but did you tell him what cages and bottle you wanted to run? If not well you may be S.O.L. because there are some that may work according to other posts, now if you did agree on the cages and bottle, different story.

    Good luck I hope everything works out.
    -j

    Well put.

    bb

  32. #32
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    Pretty tough... I'm not going to defend Walt on a personal level (I know nothing of him) and I don't know very much about the custom frame building industry. However, I design fixtures and tools for the aircraft industry and I think this may be pretty simular. There are a couple of ways it could have gone down.
    You could have given him your measurements and wants (needs) and let him go to town and do what he's good at.
    In which case he did what he deemed best and that is what you paid him for (unless you specifically indicated you wanted to be able to mount that particular cage or have the holes in a particular location.
    Or you list every dimension of every cut / hole insist precision down to a couple of thousands each way. Then break out the micrometer and calipers to determine if everything is to print.
    When it comes down to it unless you specified you would specifically need to run the profile carbon cages he did exactly what you wanted. He designed your frame to be versitile allowing for both types front derailleurs to work at the cost of using a specific bottle cage which can be mounted on as you specified "the down tube and the other on the seat tube". Thus he met your requirements.

    Moving on to your attitude, givin that your upset and worried that Walt won't fix your frame (which I feel doesn't need fixed) you should still be civil about it. Maybe even post that you didn't get exactly what you wanted (but you got what you requested). I'm sure frame builders can't read minds they design and construct frames to meet the constraints they are given.
    I hope you do well in your upcoming race, I hope you use the cateye cage to hold your bottle and that it works as it should.

    Finally I hope all this bad karma you're getting right now doesn't catch up to you on the trail....
    -Palek
    Ride Today...
    ...You might not be able to tomorrow

  33. #33
    try driving your car less
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    just a suggestion:
    maybe ask for a little compensation for the error, then run a 2 fish cage or one of the other cages like the cateye.
    It's not a major screw-up, but a minor one. personally, i would complain a bit and ask for a little discount on the frame, or maybe discount on a fork or stem or something.

    if the angles were wrong or the frame wasn't straight, i would be pissed. not sure if i would call him out at the flagpole after school, though. i might be a d!ck if he was a d!ck, but only as a last recourse.

    in any case, good luck on your race and try to relax. make sure you are not grinding your teeth, it's bad for your molars.
    Only boring people get bored.

  34. #34
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    Very correct!

    If he specifically ordered a frame with 2 cage mounts and one is unusable and the builder is not going to fix it. We as CONSUMERS should know and he is totally justified. After all this is a consumer review website!
    Rule of thumb- 1 Lb. costs 2 sec. per mile of climb

  35. #35
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    wow, and all this time I thought Walt was not human! that is so dissapointing.

    Lambast (anybody feel free) me if choose, but;

    (A) you are acting as if you had a kidney mistakenly removed by the doctor

    (B) you are using the forums in a pretty non productive way, they are here for "fun", for me anyway. What did you expect to come of your post?

    (C) any chance of getting an optimal fix with Walt is minimized given your post

    (D) as usual, it is the unhappy people who tend to post the most (ie, bias reporting)therefore, this post can only hurt the builder who I GUARANTEE has MANY, MANY extremely happy customers. I know you dont care about this though.

    (E) you sound like a whiny little 12 year old girl
    Last edited by FoShizzle; 03-22-2006 at 07:31 AM.

  36. #36
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    14 inch seat tube holding a water bottle cage? This is just a tight situation to work in and many makers wouldn't even bother putting bosses there.
    A couple of thoughts:

    1. Use a cage that fits to hold the seat tube bottle. Drink the water from the other bottle cage first and when you stop just empty the seat tube bottle into that so it is easier to access. I have done this a lot.

    2. I know money doesn't come easy and you probably laid awake at night dreaming of your new bike (who doesn't?). Perhaps once you get it built up and ride it, the cage issue will just melt away. Now if it handles like crap or has toe overlap then I would be disappointed.

    3. There is probably no perfect bike out there custom or otherwise. I imagine the builder might just offer you a refund and sell your frame. It sounds like he has a waiting list anyways.

    As far as the poster who wants a straight top tube I wouldn't. If it makes the water bottle a little harder to get to, I would prefer that, to not having as much standover as possible.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    (E) you sound like a whiny little 12 year old girl
    This coming from a guy who needs help deciding what color to paint his bike !!! LOL
    just giving you a hard time Shizz.

  38. #38
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    hmmm

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisty
    ...and one is unusable...
    unusable by whose standards?


    Lets not forget, that he has already asked for his money back, so he has moved beyond wanting it fixed or accepting any other solutions, right?

  39. #39
    Fo' Bidniz in da haus
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    exactly!

    i never said i did not sound like a 12 year old girl

    however, mine is all in jest, as are almost all my posts. sure paint is important but at the same time i realize how pathetic i am

    i guess what struck me with this post was that it is not helpful for the masses at the end of the day. not that i dont take everything here on mtbr with a grain of salt, a BIG grain mind you, but this concept of biased reporting is the only shame. folks trying to decide on a frame, as is human nature, will remember the negatives and the people more likely to post are those with negative experiences so in some ways the forum can do more harm than good. This is especially true with builders who do higher volume (relatively speaking) than others where the "Rate" of satisfaction may be among the highest but again, we dont get those numbers. So Walt, with what I assume to be a relatively higher number/frequency of customers is more at risk for negative PR even if his satisfaction rate is much better than others. off pocket-protecting soapbox.

    So the bottom line is that all y'all *****es trying to help this gentleman need to piss off and answer more relevant questions like what paint should I get! Not that is has done anything but to confuse me more

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    wow, and all this time I thought Walt was not human! that is so dissapointing.

    Lambast (anybody feel free) me if choose, but;

    (A) you are acting as if you had a kidney mistakenly removed by the doctor

    (B) you are using the forums in a pretty non productive way, they are here for "fun", for me anyway. What did you expect to come of your post?

    (C) any chance of getting an optimal fix with Walt is minimized given your post

    (D) as usual, it is the unhappy people who tend to post the most (ie, bias reporting)therefore, this post can only hurt the builder who I GUARANTEE has MANY, MANY extremely happy customers. I know you dont care about this though.

    (E) you sound like a whiny little 12 year old girl
    Fo, he was probably looking for some love and support. Nobody walks on water, other than me , and perhaps he did get blown off. I don't know. Sure he may sound unreasonable but again it is cold hard cash and lots of waiting. Hopefully they can resolve it and once he gets on his bike, if he decides to keep it, things may look up.

  41. #41
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    I'll make a short quick statement. I recieved my Waltworks a couple weeks ago. One of the issues was whether or not there would be toe overlap. I went non-suspension corrected to allieveate (sp?) that issue. I do have slight toe overlap on a climb with a turn. I e-mail Walt to tell him. It was not a complaint, I LOVE THE BIKE, it was more of an FYI in case he came across someone with similar dimensions. Do I want a full refund because of this? NO FREAKING WAY! Do I want toe overlap? No. Is it such a big deal that I can't live with it? NO again. Small builders are the heart and soul of our lifestyle, hobby or whatever it is to you. My frame wasn't perfect, but it's perfect for me. I even convinced my buddy to buy one! I do feel for you. The KTR is a serious undertaking, but there is a solution and you won't except it all because of the pull of the water bottle. I think you should at least give it a try...
    ps. pics of the WW coming soon!

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherpaxc
    I'll make a short quick statement. I recieved my Waltworks a couple weeks ago. One of the issues was whether or not there would be toe overlap. I went non-suspension corrected to allieveate (sp?) that issue. I do have slight toe overlap on a climb with a turn. I e-mail Walt to tell him. It was not a complaint, I LOVE THE BIKE, it was more of an FYI in case he came across someone with similar dimensions. Do I want a full refund because of this? NO FREAKING WAY! Do I want toe overlap? No. Is it such a big deal that I can't live with it? NO again. Small builders are the heart and soul of our lifestyle, hobby or whatever it is to you. My frame wasn't perfect, but it's perfect for me. I even convinced my buddy to buy one! I do feel for you. The KTR is a serious undertaking, but there is a solution and you won't except it all because of the pull of the water bottle. I think you should at least give it a try...
    ps. pics of the WW coming soon!
    If I was a custom builder of 29ers I would ask the customer for their crank length and shoe size and make sure the bike was built without toe overlap. To me that would be a huge deal breaker for me.
    It just goes to show some people are willing to put up with a lot more than others.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    I will send you a brand new one (and washers) tomorrow if you will use it.
    Now this is clearly the most logical piece of advice offered here. Good job Shiggy.

  44. #44
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    Try the King Iris cage. I've got one on my tight fit bike and it works wonderfully. Mine is steel, but I bet they would bend you one in Ti. If this won't work you for, call King, I've heard they make custom cages.

    Iris
    Fight the good fight.

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    Maybe you should all hush for a spell and let Walt address the issue.

    I for one would like to see his response. Getting into frame building is a difficult life, but his own choice. A custom frame should work for the intended purpose, if not there is something wrong with the design, which ultimately falls on the shoulders of the builder. I would also consider this bottle issue a serious problem, as for the customer it is a very important issue. I would also consider the toe overlap issue a serious problem, much like a BB shell welded in backwards.

    If I asked for either a usable(for the cages I was using) water bottle mount, or no toe overlap, and I received a frame with the problem I asked the builder to avoid I would make a stink too. I would not be so quick to the internet to air my grievances, but I also did not waits months for a frame.

    I see a lot of favoritism going on here. this thread should really be sitting empty, waiting for Walt to respond, but instead people attack the guy for using cages, call him a 12 year old girl, and defend Walt. Someone even offered to send him a Cateye cage free of charge?! As someone else said; this is a consumer review website, and this fellow has all the right in the world to complain here, whether you agree with his position or not.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    Regardless of the type of bottle cage I use, there is not enough clearance. This means the bottle hits the down tube before it can be set completely within the cage.
    Obviously, an oversight that is cause for concern. Did you send Walt your exact water bottle cage that you would be using to use as a template to arrange everything properly? A small oversight, but one that should not have been overlooked by you in such a mission critical application as you claim.

    Let's say, the worst case scenario is that both you and Walt were at fault and you are stuck with the bike as is. Well, 40 - 80 farkin' grams can solve the problem and allow you to complete your mission critical ride with the fluid you need.

    There are solutions galore available. Including an aluminum sliding mount bracket that you can install in the two holes on the ST that are too low which have an additional set of mounting holes where you can raise or lower the mounting hole brackets to get them where you want them on your bike. Sure, it's an extra few grams, but there are workarounds for the K race. I don't have a link, but I own one of the sliding brackets which I bought to fit in a tight space on the stoker's ST of a Tandem (stoker's cockpit is a size small and things are cramped). Heck, you could even make one yourself with a few skills.

    A few other basic solutions...

    You can mount an undersaddle bottle cage holder (one or two bottles):

    http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/detail...e=TACXBOTC0200

    Or even mount two on the seatpost or saddle or handlebars/or mount a water bottle cage anywhere you want to on any tube without having to have the holes in the right place with an Extra Cage Clamp Band Set or an 80 gram QB-90:

    http://www.minoura.co.jp/acc-e.html

    I'm sure there are plenty of other "gizmos" and easy workarounds out there to solve the dilemma. One can understand you being upset when the "perfect" plan seems to fall apart over something that seems so obvious. Again - were the specific bottle cages sent to Walt to factor in the build?

    If not....

    You have options to find a workable solution.

    BB

  47. #47
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    Calm down. Use old-skool strap on bottle cage mounts for the race, then after the race send the frame back to Walt, let him reposition the mounts, fill in the holes, and re-powdercoat the frame.

    Seems pretty simple.

    Hey, in a way Walt's helping you prep for the race by letting you go anaerobic without ever getting on your bike!

  48. #48
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    best post in this thread! some things are more important to others and if this guy wants to run profile cages and it's possible, then why is everyone sweatin' him? the cateye cage is not a solution. he specifically wanted to run a profile so quit making excuses for walt. the only thing i disagree about is posting this thread so soon. at least give the man a chance to answer!

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzumbi
    unusable by whose standards?
    uHHHM SO A BOTTLE WILL FIT MAYBE? Thats a good standard.


    Lets not forget, that he has already asked for his money back, so he has moved beyond wanting it fixed or accepting any other solutions, right?[/QUOTE]

    U know that?
    Rule of thumb- 1 Lb. costs 2 sec. per mile of climb

  50. #50
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    taec

    ????.
    Rule of thumb- 1 Lb. costs 2 sec. per mile of climb

  51. #51
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    Has anybody brought up the fact it's a 14" (center to center) seat tube? What's that, like a full 15.5" seatpost? I got about 20 posts in. That's a small frame. Most manufactorers/builders insist on a minimum seatpost insertion length for warranty purposes. Has he thought of that? For instance, Niner doesn't put waterbottle bolts on it small, or even medium frames, but puts the second set on the underside of the down tube. If this is the case, maybe Walt could have presented this problem to the customer, given his special instructions. Or maybe he did? I don't know. Right now we are only seeing one side of the story, and all too often (especially when they're short tempered attacks w/o time given by the builder to respond), we find we haven't been given all the details.
    People don't think it be like it is, but it do - Oscar Gamble

  52. #52
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    LOUD NOISES!!!!!!

    Champ, I think I ate your chocolate squirrel.

  53. #53
    DWF
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    Internet blackmail.

    Gotta' love it.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  54. #54

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    Life's apparently not short enough for some people

    He's already carrying 200 ounces of water, and he wants a new bike because he can't use a particular bottle cage??? This guy seems to be really enjoying his alleged victimhood. Scary.

  55. #55
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    a thought

    Here's a thought coming from a guy who was a little dissapointed on the first run of a custom (not Walt) a few years back.....

    Time is important right now. You have the frame in hand. The KTR is coming up soon. Build the Walt up with a cage that *works* and start riding that bike....get your body and muscles used to the frame for the upcoming epic. If you decide you can't stand the cage that works, send it back to Walt after the race to have him fix the *problem*, if you decide it's still a problem. But I would think at this point it's more important to be getting your body and muscles in tune with the new geometry of the new frame than to wait around any longer for another alternative.

    My experience...if you're reasonable and level headed with your builder...they will/can bend over backwards to make you happy.
    Last edited by qtip; 03-22-2006 at 09:15 AM.

  56. #56
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    American Classic

    Sheesh, I'd get an American Classic cage and be done with it already..

    http://www.amclassic.com/Cages.html

  57. #57
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    I agree with lots of other people, this is a private matter. Also, aren't waltworks frames steel? Who puts carbon cages on a steel mnt frame?...
    It's not hip hop, it's electro.....

  58. #58
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    Have a custom water bottle cage made.

  59. #59
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    At what point did the term 'public challenge' make sense in your mind? The root of this issue is a one-on-one business transaction between you and the frame builder. Were the public involved in any way with your decision to go with WaltWorks? Were the public in any way involved in the design that you agreed to? Were the public in any way responsible for this bottle cage not fitting?

    If you answered 'yes' to any of those question, then maybe there's some reason to bring this to the attention of MTBR members and slag off Walt in the process. Otherwise, this is well and truly bang out of order and it shows a complete loss of rational thinking on your part. Worst of all, you seem to be under some delusion that by bringing this to light out in the open, you're doing the rest of us a favor. I'll do you a favor with this tip - you're not.

    What is clear and simple is this - you're coming across loud and clear as a troublesome buyer who's trying to use every trick in the book to get a free custom-made bike. And that's pretty despicable. Options have been offered to you to make it work, but you refuse. And that's the heart of the issue here - it isn't outright impossible to put a bottle cage and bottle onto the frame as it is now. Rather than accept a free offer from shiggy to get your setup to work, you'd rather refuse a $10 bottle cage and gun for a full refund on a frame. If you can't see just how preposterous that is, then either a) you're far less calculated than you think you are, or b) you're could use a heavy dose of common sense.

  60. #60
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    Very Interesting

    I also had a very less then satisfying resolution to Walt painting my frame the wrong color. We agreed upon a frame that was going to be root beer colored and I got one that is grey. We went around and around on this issue until he finally said that he wasn't going to do anything about it. He made some excuse about not being able to control variations in the paint but my frame is GREY and nowhere near the root beer color he told me it would be. I even paid to have the frame sent back to him for inspection. He wouldn't budge an inch. At one point I even said OK, hows abouts I post it on MTBR and ask people what color they think it is and if they think it's root beer I'll suck it up, if grey then I get a new paint job....no go. I wish I had a pic here at work so that you could see what I'm talking about. Needless to say, this is the last time I go to Walt for any work. You think the guy would want satisfied customers. It leaves me scrathing my head. Whatever.
    Every man has inside himself a parasitic being who is acting not at all to his advantage.
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  61. #61
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    Walt has a frame for sale on his web page. Is this the same one?

  62. #62
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    Maybe not specific to a Waltworks frame?

    I had similar experiences with waterbottle mountings on both my Voodoo Dambala and Custom Wily. My preferred cage (catamount?) has about 1-1/4" from the bottom to the mounting hole. This caused the seattube bottle to touch the down tube on the Dambala and interfered with the DT bottle on the Wily. I swapped to different cages with the holes much closer to the bottom (similar to one in the Shiggy picture). Everything cleared just fine. I later drilled lower holes in the ST mounted catamount cage so that I could go back to using them. Everything works just fine now.

    I hope you and Walt work things out. If you don't, you will need to be very specific with the builder of your next frame or you could see this same problem again.

  63. #63
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    Lol

    Quote Originally Posted by bikeranna
    Have a custom water bottle cage made.
    Best reply so far.

    BTW, Niner does put bottle cages on the Medium SIR 9 frames, but not on the Small.

    I prefer water bottles over a hydro pack, but I would be willing to use whatever style h2o holder given I'm vertically challenged as well. I suppose that could be the arguement of going "custom", but you can't flame a builder because you want to use a specific part, if there is a different cage that will work. If you knew you were going to use specific cages, you should have worked out all the details before laying down the cash... just my experience. I'm sure Walt will work with you, I hear he's a stand up guy.

    If you're that hell bent about the bike, I'll gladly buy it from you, or even trade you for something... my wife is pretty hot

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherpaxc
    Walt has a frame for sale on his web page. Is this the same one?
    Just noticed that myself. It's not the same one, just look at the dimensions of it. I was going to use it as an example of how Walt is usually willing to make things right, regardless of whether the unhappy customer is being reasonable or not. After this public lambasting however, I wouldn't be surprised if he told the guy to piss off.

    "To make a long story short, the fellow who ordered this did not understand that an EBB is, generally speaking, for singlespeeds. He wasn't happy, and I was kind enough to refund his money - now here's your opportunity to skip the wait and get a brand spankin' new frame for way less than the usual price!"

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Bob
    BTW, Niner does put bottle cages on the Medium SIR 9 frames, but not on the Small.
    I never they don't, just that they don't on the seat tube.
    This from the Niner site:
    "One more important note on Geometry. Our SMALL and MEDIUM size frames do not have a water bottle mount on the seat tube. Instead, the second water bottle mount is on the bottom of the downtube. This was to allow full adjustment of the seat post, so when you lower it, it doesn’t stop where the screw goes into the frame for the water bottle. We felt it was more important to be able to get the seat out of the way for those hairy descents than to have a clean water bottle."
    I don't have a Niner but remembered it when I was researching frames. Might be different in the real production or just for the SIR9.

    They also reccoment a 400mm length seatpost.
    People don't think it be like it is, but it do - Oscar Gamble

  66. #66
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    Any Small frame!!

    My wife's 48cm sloping Look road bike has the same issue. I say issue as it isn't a problem. You just change which cage you use! Some road bikes have clearance issues with tires over 23mm, so you just use the 23mm's. Some cranks rub on the chainstays of bikes, so you just use longer BB spindles. I bet you didn't specify which bottle cage you want to use, and on a frame that size, it will probably cause problems getting the bottle out if you raise the cage any higher, and any lower and the front mech won't work. A 14 inch frame has limits. Sounds like it's in the right place and you just need to change the cage.

    As for slight toe overlap, how many of you have had professional bike fits? Saddle layback, Crank length, make and size of shoe and cleat placement all affect the toe overlap.

    If I go with 514Climber's school of thought, I wonder if I can complain to Giant about sticking a shock where I want my bottlecage on my NRS? Hmmm......

  67. #67
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    Wow!

    If I do make it to KTR this year, I'm staying far away from 514 for fear of ruining his day and getting a public beating for it!

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    Internet blackmail.

    Gotta' love it.
    Totally.

    Kind of a bummer that Walt has been dragged through the mud before (apparently) having a chance to really hash this out.

    This is one more example why I am so incredibly joyous that I do not work in retail.

    Can you imagine selling shoes to this guy?

  69. #69

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    Waste everybody's time...?

    Quote Originally Posted by nzumbi

    I had a small issue with my Walt, but I worked around it. Could I have been a prick about it and insisted that it wasnít right and wasted everyoneís time trying to fix it? Sure. But I didnít. And Iím happier than a pig inÖwell, you know.

    Walt is a good guy. Surely you have read all of his praises in this forum, which may or may not be why you chose to go with him as your builder. Heíll do whatever it takes to make things right.

    At this point though, if I was Walt, I would cut you off, refund your money and be done with you. Then Iíd sell that frame for just under the normal price and make somebody extraordinarily happy that they got a sweet frame from a custom builder and didnít have to wait four months for it.

    Good luck in the KTR.
    Did someone put a gun to your head and force you to read this, let alone reply.

    Prick.

    I do agree with you about the refund...and I'd be more than happy to be done with him as well.

    I just got off the phone with. He refused the refund - not even a partial. He did offer to fill in the holes and re-drill new ones. Regardless, for a long time, every time I look at the frame I'll have happy thoughts about this as well as idiots like you.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    Unfortunately, he made an error.

    I asked for two sets of bottle cage bolts - one on the down tube and the other on the seat tube.

    Regardless of the type of bottle cage I use, there is not enough clearance. This means the bottle hits the down tube before it can be set completely within the cage.
    You asked for two sets of bottle cage bolts. He delivered. You didn't specify the cages. He offered a solution (for such a small seat tube with interference issues).

    "regardles of the type of bottle cage...." So, this initially was a viable option to you. Not the optimal solution, but still functional. Walt offered an alternative, as did others here. Some how it still wasn't good enough, and you're stuck on your specific cage. Using your own statements, I don't think Walt owes you a thing, but you owe him an apology.
    People don't think it be like it is, but it do - Oscar Gamble

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    you sound like a whiny little 12 year old girl
    Yep. You also have to wonder about the ego and level of narcissism of somebody who uses the handle 5.14 climber.
    "Do not touch the trim"

  72. #72

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    I don't really care what paint you should get

    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    exactly!

    i never said i did not sound like a 12 year old girl

    however, mine is all in jest, as are almost all my posts. sure paint is important but at the same time i realize how pathetic i am

    i guess what struck me with this post was that it is not helpful for the masses at the end of the day. not that i dont take everything here on mtbr with a grain of salt, a BIG grain mind you, but this concept of biased reporting is the only shame. folks trying to decide on a frame, as is human nature, will remember the negatives and the people more likely to post are those with negative experiences so in some ways the forum can do more harm than good. This is especially true with builders who do higher volume (relatively speaking) than others where the "Rate" of satisfaction may be among the highest but again, we dont get those numbers. So Walt, with what I assume to be a relatively higher number/frequency of customers is more at risk for negative PR even if his satisfaction rate is much better than others. off pocket-protecting soapbox.

    So the bottom line is that all y'all *****es trying to help this gentleman need to piss off and answer more relevant questions like what paint should I get! Not that is has done anything but to confuse me more
    and I don't razz you for filling the posts with such topics - whether or not it wastes anyone's time.

    And, quite frankly, not every discussion should be a hug fest where we sing the praises of some one.

    Some discussions should be honest critiques. I just got off the phone with Walt and he did confess that he had a similar problem with another customer. Only I spoke up.

    Believe this - prospective frame buyers need the good and the bad experiences out there.

    Now, why don't you piss off...?

  73. #73

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    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by sherpaxc
    Walt has a frame for sale on his web page. Is this the same one?
    I just got off the phone with him. He refused even a partial refund. He did offer to pay for shipping and the repairs.

    You bet I'm going to take him up on it.

    Never mind that I won't have a mtb for the next 3-4 weeks. This is almost all of April. The KTR is in mid-May.

    From time to time, you will find his frames on eBay. If they're so great, how come people are selling them...?

  74. #74

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    Thanks very much

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Scary
    I personally think the guy has every right to complain, a custom build is just that. The builder should not make assumptions about what he wanted, he should ask. There are certain design elements that I do not like about my Fisher (radically dropped top tube), but it is a production bike and I bought it as such and I accept it. If I did a custom, that is the fist thing I would change. There is a tremendous amount of arrogance from people who are actually employed in the bike biz (not saying Walt is, just making a general statement from some personal experiences myself), and I'm not sure why...

    He spent his hard earned cash and is unhappy with the final product. Alot of you forget what life was like before the internet and you had to rely on a consumer complaint to some governmental agency to seek recourse.

    Let us know if Walt resolves this for you and good luck!
    for your comments. I just got off the phone with Walt and he refused even a partial refund.

    He did offer to fix the frame and I'm going to take him up on it.

    I am going to miss the next three weeks of pre-rides on the Kokopelli. This is crucial for someone new to the sport (less than 3 years).

  75. #75
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    Dude!

    I feel your pain, but if you can't innovate a bottle cage installation, Kokopelli is going to eat you alive anyway.

    If you decide to go for it, let me know and I will sweep the course to salvage your Walt Bike after you perish in the Desert.
    "Welcome to my underground lair...."

  76. #76
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    your mom is

  77. #77

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    Your analogy is weak, grasshopper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nowork

    If I go with 514Climber's school of thought, I wonder if I can complain to Giant about sticking a shock where I want my bottlecage on my NRS? Hmmm......
    Did you fork out a significant portion of your monthly income to order a custom Giant frame...?

    Did you specifically Giant the intended use of the frame and did Giant confirm with you the details...?

    And did you wait 4 months only to be disappointed...?

    Of course you didn't.

    A custom build is just that: custom. The builder is supposed to take in ALL considerations and discuss them with the buyer before the frame is done.

  78. #78

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    My day...?

    Quote Originally Posted by edemtbs
    If I do make it to KTR this year, I'm staying far away from 514 for fear of ruining his day and getting a public beating for it!
    How about the 4 months wait time and the 3-4 weeks of repair time...?

  79. #79
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    I think the best answer to date is to use an adjustable cage adaptor to allow you to use your cage of choice.
    I agree, build up the bike and start riding and having fun.
    Better than getting spanked on this forum.

  80. #80

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    Thanks for the feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by npstaehling
    I hope you and Walt work things out. If you don't, you will need to be very specific with the builder of your next frame or you could see this same problem again.
    I just got off the phone with Walt and he refused even a partial refund.

    He did offer to fix the frame and I'm going to take him up on it.

    I am going to miss the next three weeks of pre-rides on the Kokopelli. This is crucial for someone new to the sport (less than 3 years).

    Quite frankly, I'm not going to recommend Walt as a custom builder. On this, I'm very certain.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Weasel
    I never they don't, just that they don't on the seat tube.
    This from the Niner site:
    "One more important note on Geometry. Our SMALL and MEDIUM size frames do not have a water bottle mount on the seat tube. Instead, the second water bottle mount is on the bottom of the downtube. This was to allow full adjustment of the seat post, so when you lower it, it doesn’t stop where the screw goes into the frame for the water bottle. We felt it was more important to be able to get the seat out of the way for those hairy descents than to have a clean water bottle."
    I don't have a Niner but remembered it when I was researching frames. Might be different in the real production or just for the SIR9.

    They also reccoment a 400mm length seatpost.
    FYI, they did put mounts on the seat tube after all (at least on the SIR9). Here's evidence on my medium frame:
    Attached Images Attached Images

  82. #82
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    I'd also like to add that Walt offered to replace my fork with the VERY SLIGHT toe overlap free of charge. I told him no thanks, it's only on a certain type of turn. His customer service IS top notch. His frame IS top notch. I don't think he made a mistake. I think YOU made a mistake. If you've thought that much about the frame/components/gear for the KTR, you should have specified EXACTLY what you were going to use. YOU didn't. If you think you're the only one that has ever had to save up for a frame and where it WAS a significant portion of your measly paycheck, your wrong. Once again, your out of a bike for April because YOU refuse to accept a simple solution. Man, if a bottle cage throws you for this big of a loop, what's gonna happen on the KTR when you're out in the middle of BFE and something goes wrong with your equipment?

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    Did you specifically Giant the intended use of the frame and did Giant confirm with you the details...?
    Did you tell Walt that there was only one cage you would even consider using so he could make sure it would fit on the frame?

  84. #84
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    customer service

    I think this complaint is appropriate to the forum and a reasonable beef. Maybe a little over the top, but I think it is generally justified. IMHO, a small artisan craftsman needs to stand behind their work, period. If there is any way the customer is unhappy, it needs to be addressed, period. Fair or not, that is what I would expect, too.

    I, for one, like hearing the good, bad, and ugly about any and all manufacturers, large or small. I won't decide to use/ not use their products based on solely on internet discussions, but they are a factor. Everybody makes a personal choice about how much credibility a certain viewpoint deserves.

    I am dissapointed and surprised to hear this refund is refused, the rootbeer is grey with no recourse, nzumbi has "small issue", etc. about Walt. My perception has always been he is a very nice guy and a valuable contributor to the board. Perhaps his choice to be one of the cheapest custom options does not allow him the financial latitude to provide a liberal customer service/satisfaction/ warranty policy like some of us would expect...

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    Never mind that I won't have a mtb for the next 3-4 weeks. This is almost all of April. The KTR is in mid-May.

    I'm not trying to pick sides here...just trying to give a voice of reason. I know it can keep me up nights when things aren't just how I like them. BUT, with the KTR coming up so soon, wouldn't you rather be spending that 3-4 weeks on the bike you'll be riding at the KTR? There are solutions out there to make things work for the time being. Send the frame back after the race.

  86. #86

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    Did you read the earlier posts?

    Quote Originally Posted by centerridgerider
    You could have given him your measurements and wants (needs) and let him go to town and do what he's good at.

    Moving on to your attitude, givin that your upset and worried that Walt won't fix your frame (which I feel doesn't need fixed) you should still be civil about it.
    Finally I hope all this bad karma you're getting right now doesn't catch up to you on the trail....
    I gave him specific measurements. In fact, as a side note, he also forgot to put cable stops in the chain stay. I let that one go and just used a zip tie.

    And what he should be good at is anticipating such scenarios. I just got off the phone with him and he fessed up to having similar issues with another customer.

    As for karma, did I steal from him...? Did I try to cheat him...? I simply stated my experience for others to note. This is a forum, after all. Another thing - he refused my request for even a partial refund. I'm not the one fearing karma here...

  87. #87
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    Ok...

    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    How about the 4 months wait time and the 3-4 weeks of repair time...?
    I hear you. How about this, I'm heading out to pre-ride KTR this weekend. I'll bring my extra bike, it's not a 29'er but it's a nice, geared, steel ride w/ a susp fork.. I'll loan it to you so you can have a bike to pre-ride KTR over the next month or so. PM me.

    And we can even talk about this problem you have.Maybe you can blow off some steam since it appears you have no one else to talk to about this.

    As you can probably tell by now your approach on this issue is not the best. I've seen custom build criticisms before and they are welcome information but they weren't as nasty and confrontational as this.

    I'm going back to the "Black Sheep Meets I9" thread.

    PS - I think we all get the point on this thread, it's done as far as I am concerned.

  88. #88
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    Sorry, should have been more clear

    Quote Originally Posted by The Weasel
    I never they don't, just that they don't on the seat tube.
    This from the Niner site:
    "One more important note on Geometry. Our SMALL and MEDIUM size frames do not have a water bottle mount on the seat tube. Instead, the second water bottle mount is on the bottom of the downtube.
    The Medium SIR 9 frame has a bottle mount on the s-t. The small has only one bottle mount on the d-t. Chris and Steve are super busy launching new products, I'm sure they'll correct the site when time allows.

    Like 514, I like having multiple bottles, but rather than expecting the world and *****ing about it when it's not 100% to my unrealistic expectations, I just come up with my own solution ( it's been posted before, but it will allow you to run your precious carbon cages too 514)

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber

    I am going to miss the next three weeks of pre-rides on the Kokopelli. This is crucial for someone new to the sport (less than 3 years).
    That would be your own fault. You got exactly what you ordered; a custum frame with two sets of functional cage mounts. You neglected to state in your discussion with Walt, which specific cages.

    Thanks alot Walt! All you've done is encouraged this guy to act like a irrational jerk next time he is wrong.
    People don't think it be like it is, but it do - Oscar Gamble

  90. #90

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    You're very good a finger pointing, aren't you...?

    Quote Originally Posted by sherpaxc
    I'd also like to add that Walt offered to replace my fork with the VERY SLIGHT toe overlap free of charge. I told him no thanks, it's only on a certain type of turn. His customer service IS top notch. His frame IS top notch. I don't think he made a mistake. I think YOU made a mistake. If you've thought that much about the frame/components/gear for the KTR, you should have specified EXACTLY what you were going to use. YOU didn't. If you think you're the only one that has ever had to save up for a frame and where it WAS a significant portion of your measly paycheck, your wrong. Once again, your out of a bike for April because YOU refuse to accept a simple solution. Man, if a bottle cage throws you for this big of a loop, what's gonna happen on the KTR when you're out in the middle of BFE and something goes wrong with your equipment?
    I can deal with a different cage. Hell, I'm quite good at McGyvering myself out of sketchy situations.

    The issue here is simple:

    this is a a custom frame

    the seat tube is 14" center to center

    I asked for bolt holes in the seat tube

    Walt, as an experienced builder, should have asked me what type of derailleur I use. (I just got off the phone with him - he ASSUMED I was going to use SRAM and drilled accordingly)

    You can bet the farm that, thanks to this spirited discussion, Walt, other builders, and future frame shoppers will know to iron out such details.

    If I was scared of little snipes from people like you who don't want to see the bad as well as the good, I would not have started this thread. And someone else down the road will be stuck with a frame that just isn't what they wanted but are afraid to voice their opinions.

  91. #91

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    So what should I do...?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Weasel

    Thanks alot Walt! All you've done is encouraged this guy to act like a irrational jerk next time he is wrong.
    Ride this frame as is...? Be unhappy pursuing an activity that, for most, does not pay in money, but pays in the kind of fun we knew as children.

    So what should I do in May and June when the season really picks up? Send the frame to him then...?

    Like a said in another post, it is the job of the professional frame builder to anticipate such sizing fit issues.

    You and many others hate my guts right now. But you can be sure that I've future frame shoppers from similar headaches because I had the guts to voice my honest critiques.

    Your inability to see that makes you the irrational one.

  92. #92
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    I got a GREAT idea for you. It's so great, I can't believe I'm about to say it, but since you're such a narrow-minded person, I guess the risk is low and you'll probably say 'no'. Anyway, since this frame is causing you such distress (I mean, a bottle cage boss, MY GOD!), I'll take it off your hands for $300. You say it's a size 14"? I'm 5'4", I'm sure I could find a way of making it work. I'd offer you a bit more, but as you've described at length here, this frame is clearly defective and faulty. This way, you won't be out all your money, you'll make some of it back.

    C'mon, let's work out a deal.

  93. #93
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    Fat Bob

    If you didn't take up Shiggy on his offer (free (FREE!) bottle cage) and if any of the solutions don't appeal to you (different cage, adapters, other cage locations, new bottle mounts) and you can't get a refund then for god's sake, take Fat Bob up on his offer!

    "If you're that hell bent about the bike, I'll gladly buy it from you, or even trade you for something... my wife is pretty hot "

  94. #94
    Nat
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    A custom build is just that: custom. The builder is supposed to take in ALL considerations and discuss them with the buyer before the frame is done.
    ALL possible considerations covers an awful lot, and I think it is unreasonable for anyone to be expected to anticipate ALL possible scenarios if not given input.

    I'm curious, since the choice of bottle cage is obviously very important to you (and that's okay), did you tell Walt SPECIFICALLY which cages you intended to use and did you communicate to him how important it is to you? If so, then I think Walt goofed. If not, then I think it's a good lesson for all of us: if something is very important to us, BE SPECIFIC.

  95. #95

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    Hey VT

    Quote Originally Posted by VT Mike
    Did you tell Walt that there was only one cage you would even consider using so he could make sure it would fit on the frame?

    I haven't heard from you in a while. Hope you're doing well.

    Thanks for the constructive question. I did not specify the exact model of cage.

    However, most standard cages have about 1" to 1.5" drop from the bottom bolt hole to the lower lip of the cage.

    It's the bottle cage with a shorter drop that is the exception.

    Another thing, many argue the bolts were place to accomodate both top and bottom swing derailleurs. I just measured the placement.

    I'm running compact cranks (44-32-20)

    I'm running top swing front derailleur.

    There is exactly 3/4" inch space from the bottom bolt hole to the top edge of the derailleur clamp.


    So much for functionality.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    I haven't heard from you in a while. Hope you're doing well.
    I'm pretty sure I don't know you. Maybe you think I'm someone else?

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber

    Like a said in another post, it is the job of the professional frame builder to anticipate such sizing fit issues.
    Oh so the job of the builder is also now to anticipate which model bottle cage you'll be using. You are able to do that with other cage models offered by him and others, without alteration.
    Funny, you say they should anticipate, yet you also say you gave him all the necessary details. Apparantly you missed a few things and left the guess work up to him.
    If you are going to let him anticipate you can't also fault him for his decisions.
    People don't think it be like it is, but it do - Oscar Gamble

  98. #98

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    She's what...?

    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    your mom is
    My Mother is what, now...?

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    an activity that, for most, does not pay in money, but pays in the kind of fun we knew as children.
    Okay, so this has been the thing that kept going through my mind. I was wondering if you were doing this race professionally (as in, to put food on the table) or if it was recreational (as in, to have fun). One reason I don't get too involved with the racing side of the sport is because people can get very self-serious, which takes a fun activity and makes it a chore.

    Years ago, when I first started riding mountain bikes, I somehow got the impression that racing was the be-all end-all of the sport. I spent a lot of time and energy "training" and being a "serious biker." Man that took all the joy out of it.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    I am going to miss the next three weeks of pre-rides on the Kokopelli. This is crucial for someone new to the sport (less than 3 years).

    Quite frankly, I'm not going to recommend Walt as a custom builder. On this, I'm very certain.
    You seem to be missing an important point: You seem to think that we care what you think, that by your recommendation you can dissuade others to give someone their business in the future. You've said you're new to the sport, and by our best judgement it doesn't seem like you're a huge expert anyway, so I'm pretty sure you aren't coming across as someone that anyone would come to for advice.

    Shoulda listened to those guys at your LBS

  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    But you can be sure that I've future frame shoppers from similar headaches because I had the guts to voice my honest critiques.
    *****ing in a public forum anonymously doesn't take guts.

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    Roll your eyes all you want...

    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    Internet blackmail.

    Gotta' love it.
    If you read the earlier posts, I called the guy twice and sent him three emails, only to get a curt response back.

    Which, of course, led to my starting this thread.

    And if your acronym stands for Divorced White Female, I can see why you're so jaded.

  103. #103
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    Back in October, when I paid in full for the frame, I went into my favorite LBS in Salt Lake. It's called the Wild Rose. Those guys are quite hardcore 29er rigid types. Anyway, I happily told them about my new frame from the great Walt and they just rolled their eyes. When I asked them for an explanation, they told me a story of how one guy brought in a Walt Frame and the threading on the english bottom bracket was backwards.
    I believe there is a thread about this where he realized the mistake was made and built another frame for the guy.

    I just got off the phone with him. He refused even a partial refund. He did offer to pay for shipping and the repairs. You bet I'm going to take him up on it.
    Sounds like a very fair resolution to me

    Never mind that I won't have a mtb for the next 3-4 weeks. This is almost all of April. The KTR is in mid-May.
    Why not take shiggy up on the free cage offer and send it back after the race? That way you can have some time on the Walt to get used to it

    From time to time, you will find his frames on eBay. If they're so great, how come people are selling them...?
    And I have also seen IF, Strong, Desalvo, Curtlo, Gunnar, etc for sale on ebay. So people are selling them on ebay because they are unhappy? You must be the expert.

  104. #104
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    This thread is SOOO tiring.

    Why did you pick Walt to build your frame in the first place?

    Why didn't you order a custom Moots or something instead? Maybe you could have gotten your money back on a $3000 bike.

    In your original post (how many have you added since then?) you stated that you knew we would call you a whiner. So why are you acting so suprized and defensive when that's what we do?

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    You're very right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Padre
    Totally.

    Kind of a bummer that Walt has been dragged through the mud before (apparently) having a chance to really hash this out.

    This is one more example why I am so incredibly joyous that I do not work in retail.

    Can you imagine selling shoes to this guy?
    Every shoes that I buy, I return in a whirlwind of piss of and vinegar.

    I'm Imelda Marcos on a very bad day.

    Of course, you're right. You're padre.

  106. #106

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    What I meant was...

    Quote Originally Posted by VT Mike
    I'm pretty sure I don't know you. Maybe you think I'm someone else?
    swapping posts in this forum.

    There was a discussion about carbon posts a while back in which we, along with others, debated the use of grease or not (my vote was "no")

  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    You can bet the farm that, thanks to this spirited discussion, Walt, other builders, and future frame shoppers will know to iron out such details.
    Well here's the true resolution of the problem. I was lucky enough to have a completely positive experience with Carl Strong on the construction of my frame and I'd probably let it be known if I wasn't satisfied too; although I'd probably just work it out with the builder. Your problem is going to be fixed, though I, among others here, feel that Walt wasn't completely in the wrong; he did give you a frame with what you asked for, that would work as designed and requested, with the hiccup of having to use one bottle cage over another. You have every right to feel disappointed but you should also feel good that Walt's going to "fix" the problem for you at no charge. This episode doesn't tarnish my opinion of his work at all. Now let's tuck this thread in and put it to bed.
    "I'll disintegrate over time if I expect my body to try to keep up with my mind" -BM

    Race, Rocks or Road...Just Ride

  108. #108

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    Is it such a great idea...?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpinWheelz
    I got a GREAT idea for you. It's so great, I can't believe I'm about to say it, but since you're such a narrow-minded person, I guess the risk is low and you'll probably say 'no'. Anyway, since this frame is causing you such distress (I mean, a bottle cage boss, MY GOD!), I'll take it off your hands for $300. You say it's a size 14"? I'm 5'4", I'm sure I could find a way of making it work. I'd offer you a bit more, but as you've described at length here, this frame is clearly defective and faulty. This way, you won't be out all your money, you'll make some of it back.

    C'mon, let's work out a deal.
    Or are you just teasing me with that $300...?

    Make it 400 and I'll eat the remaining 390 as a loss. Like I said, I'd prefer a partial refund but no dice from Walt.

    And, of couse, the frame isn't defective. It simply is not what I ordered. (as stated in another post, he also forgot to add a cable stay but I let that one go...)

    Although, making a saracastic offer to someone who is out a considerable sum (to him) of money as well as time appears truly narrow-minded.

  109. #109
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    Personally, I'm in the "Walt doesn't walk on water" category as well. I got my frame that was supposed to be root beer colored from Walt and it was Grey. Let him know about it, sent the frame back and he basically decided that if I wanted another color I would have to pay for a strip and repaint. The shipping was on me in both directions. Gee thanks, Walt. So, we went around and around on this until I finally said OK, hows abouts I post a pic here and see what color other people think the frame is? If they say root beer I suck it up, if Grey I get a new paint job. He refused. Needless to say, I will be going elsewhere for frames from now on. Actually, the whole incident left such a bad taste in my mouth I really don't want to advertise for him by having his decals on the bike.
    Every man has inside himself a parasitic being who is acting not at all to his advantage.
    William S. Burroughs

  110. #110
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    Finger pointing...

    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    I can deal with a different cage. Hell, I'm quite good at McGyvering myself out of sketchy situations.

    If I was scared of little snipes from people like you who don't want to see the bad as well as the good, I would not have started this thread.
    But the truth of the matter is that you're a hot head, and rather than sitting down and having a rational conversation with Walt about the issue, you saw it fit to flame the guy on a public forum, when people tell you to stop being a little b!tch, you tell the world you've done them a favor... maybe to an idiot, but as others have pointed out, if you're that anal about a specific cage, you should have realized that such a pip squeek frame would have difficulties running a bottle mount on the S-T, you're quick to point the finger at Walt, when you're equally liable. Walt's offered to do the right thing, and you're still not happy, and still don't want to admit that 50% of the problem could have been solved 4 months ago!


    Minor Thread:

    "What the f*ck are you fighting for, is it 'cause you're 5 foot 4, You better be happy with what you've got, you'll never get any more... bana, bana, bana SMALL MAN, BIG MOUTH"


    BTW, I'm a shrimp too, but I'll admit when I'm wrong (which is never!)

  111. #111
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    about moots...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wish I Were Riding
    Why didn't you order a custom Moots or something instead? Maybe you could have gotten your money back on a $3000 bike.
    I heard of a moots coming to a shop without all of the cable bosses, had to go back to have them put on. I'm sure it happens to every builder, a little detail. But this wasn't something that was missed, this was done on purpose, to allow both types of derailleurs to be used and still get a cage on a bike with a really short seat tube.

    I think the fact that you only want to consider using one type of cage is a really big deal here.

    Why don't you just let Shiggy send you a cage that will work and give it a try? We're talking zero risk, zero cost, why not? Then if it doesn't work you can strap on another cage, get thru the event, then send it back to have the bosses repositioned?

  112. #112
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    514 thanks for starting this topic. you got yourself a mail-order bride who showed up buck toothed and fat. it's too bad you didn't have the chance to have someone else with a problem such as yours come up before so you would have known to be more specific when dealing with your frame specs. your approach is lacking in tact but i understand what that ball of acid in your gut is all about. after ordering my non-custom frame and waiting/dreaming what a beaut she'd be i had various pissme-offs with non-fitting parts and such. but i worked around it and took suggestions from previous topics here. life is too short to worry about the amount of bread you laid out for something like this. i realize that you paid for something specific and didn't get it. but you could always be that guy in britain who had his kidney removed and found out it was the wrong one. he's left with the cancerous one with no work-around. if anything comes of this you can know that others will be more pro-active when hammering out the details on their custom rides.

  113. #113

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    I should have been more detailed with that comment...

    Quote Originally Posted by J-RAD



    And I have also seen IF, Strong, Desalvo, Curtlo, Gunnar, etc for sale on ebay. So people are selling them on ebay because they are unhappy? You must be the expert.
    Of course there are those who simply sell a frame because it's time for them to move on to something else.

    And, no, I'm not an expert. Just a guy in his 3rd-year of riding who didn't have the infinite wisdom to anticipate many of the pitfalls associated with a custom build.

    Which is why I hired the services of someone who does this for a living. Hmmmm.

    By the way, that Walt frame on eBay was advertised (truthfully or not, I don't know) as having less than 300 miles. Sounds like a disappointed rider to me...

  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherpaxc
    I'll make a short quick statement. I recieved my Waltworks a couple weeks ago. One of the issues was whether or not there would be toe overlap. I went non-suspension corrected to allieveate (sp?) that issue. I do have slight toe overlap on a climb with a turn. I e-mail Walt to tell him. It was not a complaint, I LOVE THE BIKE, it was more of an FYI in case he came across someone with similar dimensions. Do I want a full refund because of this? NO FREAKING WAY! Do I want toe overlap? No. Is it such a big deal that I can't live with it? NO again. Small builders are the heart and soul of our lifestyle, hobby or whatever it is to you. My frame wasn't perfect, but it's perfect for me. I even convinced my buddy to buy one! I do feel for you. The KTR is a serious undertaking, but there is a solution and you won't except it all because of the pull of the water bottle. I think you should at least give it a try...
    ps. pics of the WW coming soon!
    That's unacceptable. Isn't this the type of thing you go to a custom maker for in the first place to make sure doesn't happen. Kinda negates the whole point of going custom, doesn't it? After all, isn't this why Walt asks for your measurements including your shoe size? I hope this isn't an issue on mine or I'll be even more discouraged. Arghh!!
    Every man has inside himself a parasitic being who is acting not at all to his advantage.
    William S. Burroughs

  115. #115
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    Walt's take

    Hi guys -

    It's been a while - I'm sort of banned (by my wife) from the forum, but I was pointed to this thread by a friend and thought I'd quickly respond.

    Basically, both 514climber and I blew it. Here's where we went wrong:

    -514 made no mention of the specific bottle cage or specific front derailleur he would be using. Since between top and bottom swing Shimano and SRAM front derailleurs, most of the area from 3.5-4.5" above the seat tube/downtube junction is unusable due to potential derailleur clamp/boss interference, and the frame was very small (14", as mentioned before) I elected to put the cage bosses low (at 3 and 5.5" above the joint, respectively). This position will work with lots of cages, but not the ones 514 wants to use. *The design 514 approved did not specifically mention the locations of the cages, other than "seat tube, downtube"*

    -I should have asked specifically what front derailleur and bottle cages, and 514 should have specifically mentioned them as well. In this regard, we both failed. Small size frames require extra care in positioning all drivetrain/frame/brazeon elements, and I should have been far more careful in assessing what 514 needed. Conversely, though, 514 (who talked to me on the phone at least 5 times, for probably more than an hour, about the design) should have mentioned this if he was worried about it.

    -514 emailed me at about 11:00, and I dashed off a quick reply before going to bed. Then, at MIDNIGHT, he called my cell phone and woke my wife and I up. He called again at approximately 8 AM, while I was preparing breakfast. Then he posted this thread, apparently, before I even had a chance to send him another email or talk to him on the phone. By my reckoning, I had only the 9 hours between 11:30 and 8:30 AM to respond, and for most of that time, I was (as you might expect) trying to sleep. If I had failed to respond by, say, this afternoon, I could see posting this, but I think 514 jumped the gun a little.


    The bottom line is that I take responsibility for any problem with the frame, but I don't react well to what I see as blackmail and general unreasonable-ness. So I've offered to remove the existing bosses, place new bosses, have the frame powdercoated again, and pay shipping both ways (which will cost me in excess of $200, meaning that I'll make almost no money on this frame) - PROVIDED 514 apologizes to me publicly for posting this thread without speaking with me first, and for waking me up. I've apologized for what I see as my errors, in the spirit of fairness and friendship, I'm asking him to do the same.

    Thanks for listening, and I hope everyone can come out of this smiling.

    -Walt
    Last edited by Walt; 03-22-2006 at 11:21 AM.

  116. #116

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    Go away

    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Bob


    Minor Thread:

    "What the f*ck are you fighting for, is it 'cause you're 5 foot 4, You better be happy with what you've got, you'll never get any more... bana, bana, bana SMALL MAN, BIG MOUTH"


    BTW, I'm a shrimp too, but I'll admit when I'm wrong (which is never!)
    I'm 5 10

    I just like alot of clearance.

    I'm no giant, mind you, but I certainly don't suffer from Napolean complex.

    I started this thread as an honest, albeit non-sugar coated, discussion on an unhappy experience. And I state again that I had sent three emails and two phone calls prior.

    And clearly this detail which seems so insignificant those like you should have been ironed out during the building process.

    Now Go Away.

  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    swapping posts in this forum.

    There was a discussion about carbon posts a while back in which we, along with others, debated the use of grease or not (my vote was "no")
    Oh, I see. The way I read your post, it seemed like you thought I was some you had ridden with before or something. Now I get it

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    Regardless of the type of bottle cage I use, there is not enough clearance. This means the bottle hits the down tube before it can be set completely within the cage.
    For the love of beer and chicks, if it's a plastic bottle you're using, just put a dent in the bottom of the bottle where it hits the downtube so it will fit in the cage you are so set on using. That's what my 5'4" buddy of mine has to do on his size Small VCW frame in order to get a bottle to fit on the seat tube. I'll ask him to take a picture of it if it helps. It's not rocket science.

  119. #119

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    You're right

    Quote Originally Posted by el-cid
    This episode doesn't tarnish my opinion of his work at all. Now let's tuck this thread in and put it to bed.
    A great majority of his clients are happy. I, however, drew the short straw. I also, however, am honest and gutsy enough to voice a less than ideal experience.

    I already said this to Cloxxi. For every flame I got, I have no doubt there are lurkers who quietly appreciate such brutal honesty.

    Now I have a bike to take apart. Then I'm my way to UPS.

  120. #120

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    3 words sums up this thread:

    Whiny Little *****


    Have a nice day.

  121. #121
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    Eh, I am just happy that he is taking care of this and we won't have to hear you moan till your next custom build.
    Last edited by J-RAD; 03-22-2006 at 11:26 AM.

  122. #122
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    By the way, that Walt frame on eBay was advertised (truthfully or not, I don't know) as having less than 300 miles. Sounds like a disappointed rider to me...
    Speculation? Hmmmmm. By reading that, I have no idea why he would have gotten rid of it. I will speculate as you did. Maybe his old lady told him he couldn't ride anymore? Hmmmm, that sounds good.

  123. #123
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    In my 15 years of retail 514 is exactly the unreasonable type of customer I enjoyed showing the door to. Walt has shown to be the level head here. 514, you have a lot of growing up to do.

  124. #124

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    Rocket science is easy

    Quote Originally Posted by tamjam
    For the love of beer and chicks, if it's a plastic bottle you're using, just put a dent in the bottom of the bottle where it hits the downtube so it will fit in the cage you are so set on using. That's what my 5'4" buddy of mine has to do on his size Small VCW frame in order to get a bottle to fit on the seat tube. I'll ask him to take a picture of it if it helps. It's not rocket science.
    Well, relatively easy because it's math.

    What's not so easy to trying to empathize with someone who put out a great deal of over time to pay for the frame, waited 4 months and realized it's not as custom as he would've like.

    Before you reply to this, read my above response to el cid. I have a bike to take apart and pack for shipping. I'm not going to waste any more time responding to cheap shots from the walt-fan club.

  125. #125

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    oh c'mon, man

    Quote Originally Posted by J-RAD
    Speculation? Hmmmmm. By reading that, I have no idea why he would have gotten rid of it. I will speculate as you did. Maybe his old lady told him he couldn't ride anymore? Who are you to say why he was selling?
    A guy is going to ditch a custom bike because his old lady gave him an ultimatum...?

    Chances are she would be empathetic to his love of riding.

    And it's not like he broke into junior's college fund to buy a 3k ti build-up.

    It's a safe bet that (if the frame truly had less than 300 miles), he wasn't happy.

  126. #126
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    I beg the moderators

    please ...it's Time To Kill This Thread... It's Getting Way To Personal...same As The R.c. Thread

  127. #127
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    Working with the public and expectations

    My late Father owned a Bakery. Worked his a$$ off all his life. One of his specialties were wedding cakes. He was very artistic and He did all the decorating. His cakes were beautiful. Customers would come in, place thier order including all the little special details they wanted, including thier own special ornaments. For most people, your wedding day is one of the most important days of your life, so you want it right. Well, 99.9% of the time, his customers got exactly what they wanted, and were very happy. Some were happy even though the roses were not quite the shade of color they expected, or some other small detail that didn't quite meet thier expectation. The other .1% were unhappy no matter what. They would pick up thier cakes, and not make a complaint, but then return the following week and demand a refund because something wasn't right. The Cake.....it was gone, eaten. My point is, when you're dealing with something that has to be created from nothing, like a wedding cake, or a custom bike frame, its not a known quantity. It is up to the person requesting this uncreated item, to be very specific and not assume anything. Oh sure, with a cake, you can assume there will be cake with icing on it, and its edible, and a bike frame should fit wheels and be ridable, but its all the small details that can cause a gap between the customers expectations, and the delivered product.

    My impression is no matter what Walt offered as a resolution, 5.14 would not be happy.
    The fact that the frame didn't meet that initial expectation has ruined any chance of a positive outcome.
    "Veni, vedi, pulsus" "I came, I saw, I pushed"

  128. #128

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    I wish he had...

    Quote Originally Posted by surlytman
    In my 15 years of retail 514 is exactly the unreasonable type of customer I enjoyed showing the door to. Walt has shown to be the level head here. 514, you have a lot of growing up to do.

    with even a partial refund. As it stands, I'm sending the frame back, have him set things straight and he and can be done forever.

    And I worked customer service - although not as long as you. My co-workers and I used to make fun of complaints like this. Now I'm that customer that is making seemingly unjustified rants.

    The view from the other side is indeed interesting.

  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    Or are you just teasing me with that $300...?

    Make it 400 and I'll eat the remaining 390 as a loss. Like I said, I'd prefer a partial refund but no dice from Walt.

    And, of couse, the frame isn't defective. It simply is not what I ordered. (as stated in another post, he also forgot to add a cable stay but I let that one go...)

    Although, making a saracastic offer to someone who is out a considerable sum (to him) of money as well as time appears truly narrow-minded.
    $400 right here, right now.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    Did someone put a gun to your head and force you to read this, let alone reply.

    Prick.

    I do agree with you about the refund...and I'd be more than happy to be done with him as well.

    I just got off the phone with. He refused the refund - not even a partial. He did offer to fill in the holes and re-drill new ones. Regardless, for a long time, every time I look at the frame I'll have happy thoughts about this as well as idiots like you.

    Just for the record. Please never buy an on-one product.

  131. #131

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    514, you are being unreasonable.

    you are being unreasonable, and here is why i think so:

    over the years, i have purcahsed upwards of 10-12 custom bikes from various builders for myself and family. these bikes range from custom gunnars, and curtlo to ultra bling rivendells which cost over 3 times as much. i do not expect the same on a budget level bike as i do from an ultra-bling one. it is unreasonable to do so.

    walt builds at the buget level. nothing against him, but that is how it is. hold a walt up to a vanilla, or a columbine, or steelman frame - it is apparant. it is good that we have guys like walt, putting out quality no-nonsense entry level custom rides. but you cannot select a builder who prices his stuff at the lower end of the custom scale, and hold his product to a standard that would be appropriate for something at the upper end. i do not doug curtiss to the same level of expectation in detail as i do sasha white. that, in essennse , is what you are doing here.

    when you save money, you have got to be less ultra-demanding of perfection. to be penny-pinching and then ultra-demanding is not a flattering presentation of yourself, my friend.

    moreover, you have overstated the nature of this issue. it could have been solved with a free cage from ziggy. i also am pretty sure it could be solved by modifying any one of a number of other cages to work. for someting as minor as a cage, this should be done by you, at this level of experience. it is not that big a deal - it is only a big deal because you are making it so. in your excuses as to why you will not at least consider an alternative solution you are being extremely petty, and selfish. it is embarrassing, really - knock it off, would be my advice to you. your actions, based on unreasonable expectations, are hurting people. your actions are born from some degree of understandable frustration, but you have - in this case- UNDOUBTABLY - let those feelings get the better of you.

  132. #132
    Fo' Bidniz in da haus
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    my apologies....what I meant to say is that your mom cares what color i get

  133. #133
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    I like Walt's reply. He took responsibility for his mistake, and tried to make it right. He explained what happened in a fair and cool headed manner. He did not stoop to this guys level. All this guy could do is repost the las three posts about not getting his money back. Had it been me I would have used a different cage. That is what this sport is all about IMO. Adapt! I also find it interesting that 514climber did not even respond to or, refute anything in Walt's post. All he could do was bicker with the other posters. Which In my eyes speaks volumes about the entire situation. When I can swing the cash Walt will get some patronage from me.
    Oh...I smell what you're steppin' in.

  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    ...the kind of fun we knew as children. You and many others hate my guts right now.
    Dude, one of the things about being a child is acting like one, so obviously you've got two things going-having fun riding like a child and also acting like one!

    I'd say no one hates you, but I'm sure a lot of us feel it'd be nice if you grew up, handled this with Walt like a man, and if he couldn't work something out with you, then post it as an FYI/discussion, not an insane rant.

    Normally I'd be behind you 100%, as I'm as anal about bike perfection as a person can be, but at this point I'm rootin' for Walt.

    Walt will have the last laugh, as you'll always have a bad taste in your mouth when you ride this bike. It'll always be in the back of your mind. It will never feel right. Just sell it now while it's still new and you can get a bit more for it. See you on the trail...er...maybe not...RC

  135. #135
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    Also for the record Brant,

    I feel I was misled with my Inbred 29er. I absolutely love it except when the steepness of the grade exceeds about 15% at which point I need to pedal the bike. It is at this point that the bike no longer coasts uphill as it does for anything less than that.

  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected]
    Just for the record. Please never buy an on-one product.
    best post of the year?

  137. #137
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    gee, another option!

    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    $400 right here, right now.

    DWF adds yet another solution to the options. Let's see...



    get the bosses moved (NO cost to you, shipping paid both ways)

    sell to DWF (essentially your "partial" refund)

    get a FREE cage from Shiggy

    use some other brand of cage (AC or whatever, links in other posts)

    put the cage in a different location

    use an adapter and your favorite cage


    Sheeze, if you can't be happy with one of these options....Let's hear some love for all of the guys who helped come up with these options!

  138. #138
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    quote of the year!

    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected]
    Just for the record. Please never buy an on-one product.
    brant, you made my day!





    514... dude, your 2 referenced phone calls that were used to justify this thread were at midnight and 8am... you think waltworks is a 24/7 company? plus a late night email?

    and you never SPECIFIED which bottle cage you were going to use.

    Nonetheless, Walt offered to fix it, and seemed pretty reasonable to me. You just couldn't wait a couple hours for the day to start.

    you obviously get emotional, become irrational, and overreact... not good ingredients when your looking for customer service, or frankly anything in life.

    smoke a bowl and go ride. sheesh

  139. #139
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    This thread is just plain unreasonable and stupid. I cant believe as human beings and cyclists we have actually evolved to the point where an issue involving a certain type of waterbottle cage/mount justifies this type of negative energy and behavior. Please get over yourself and ride the F%[email protected]# bike.

  140. #140
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    Now we have seen both sides, and...

    I have a hard time believing that 514 was ever at all polite and level headed with Walt. If I e-mailed somebody on a customer service issue at 11:00pm, I would be tickled to death to see a reply coming whizzing back into my inbox that same night. That right there shows that Walt is prompt in dealing with customer service issues. Perhaps the response was not exactly what 514 wanted, but that does not justify a phone call at midnight.

    Common courtesy would also tell most people not to call a person at 8am, unless it is absolutely necessary (somebody is in the hospital, cousin Pat won the lotto, etc...). Instead of fuming over it that early, go have a nice breakfast or better yet ride down to the local taco joint for a breakfast taco. After two badly timed phone calls, anybody might expect Walt to be a little irritated with this customer. I sure as heck would be.

    So, what he have hear in the end is an agreement to fix the <b>minor</b> problem free of charge. Yes, that requires sending it back, but what else can be done? It is very clear that both 514 and Walt had a bit of a misunderstanding here. There was certainly no intention on Walt's part to mess this up and it seems he used his best judgement to work through the derailleur clamp/water bottle interference issues. Not specifying the type of cage intended puts 514 with as much blame as Walt for not making clear what type of derailleur and cage the customer wanted. So, Walt will be out $200 and 514 won't have his frame for 3-4 weeks. Sounds pretty fair to me. Sometimes problems arise, especially when dealing with custom made products. You just have to roll with what comes your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt
    Hi guys -

    It's been a while - I'm sort of banned (by my wife) from the forum, but I was pointed to this thread by a friend and thought I'd quickly respond.

    Basically, both 514climber and I blew it. Here's where we went wrong:

    -514 made no mention of the specific bottle cage or specific front derailleur he would be using. Since between top and bottom swing Shimano and SRAM front derailleurs, most of the area from 3.5-4.5" above the seat tube/downtube junction is unusable due to potential derailleur clamp/boss interference, and the frame was very small (14", as mentioned before) I elected to put the cage bosses low (at 3 and 5.5" above the joint, respectively). This position will work with lots of cages, but not the ones 514 wants to use. *The design 514 approved did not specifically mention the locations of the cages, other than "seat tube, downtube"*

    -I should have asked specifically what front derailleur and bottle cages, and 514 should have specifically mentioned them as well. In this regard, we both failed. Small size frames require extra care in positioning all drivetrain/frame/brazeon elements, and I should have been far more careful in assessing what 514 needed. Conversely, though, 514 (who talked to me on the phone at least 5 times, for probably more than an hour, about the design) should have mentioned this if he was worried about it.

    -514 emailed me at about 11:00, and I dashed off a quick reply before going to bed. Then, at MIDNIGHT, he called my cell phone and woke my wife and I up. He called again at approximately 8 AM, while I was preparing breakfast. Then he posted this thread, apparently, before I even had a chance to send him another email or talk to him on the phone. By my reckoning, I had only the 9 hours between 11:30 and 8:30 AM to respond, and for most of that time, I was (as you might expect) trying to sleep. If I had failed to respond by, say, this afternoon, I could see posting this, but I think 514 jumped the gun a little.


    The bottom line is that I take responsibility for any problem with the frame, but I don't react well to what I see as blackmail and general unreasonable-ness. So I've offered to remove the existing bosses, place new bosses, have the frame powdercoated again, and pay shipping both ways (which will cost me in excess of $200, meaning that I'll make almost no money on this frame) - PROVIDED 514 apologizes to me publicly for posting this thread without speaking with me first, and for waking me up. I've apologized for what I see as my errors, in the spirit of fairness and friendship, I'm asking him to do the same.

    Thanks for listening, and I hope everyone can come out of this smiling.

    -Walt
    Get on your bikes and ride!

  141. #141
    Fo' Bidniz in da haus
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    Walt: "How are you doing? What can I do to help you?"

    514: "" blah blah blah...

    Me:

  142. #142
    mtbr member
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    5'10" ....

    Quote Originally Posted by 514Climber
    I'm 5 10

    I just like alot of clearance.

    I'm no giant, mind you, but I certainly don't suffer from Napolean complex.

    I started this thread as an honest, albeit non-sugar coated, discussion on an unhappy experience. And I state again that I had sent three emails and two phone calls prior.

    And clearly this detail which seems so insignificant those like you should have been ironed out during the building process.

    Now Go Away.
    Minor Threat was punk band in the 80's, Those were lyrics that Ian McKaye wrote, some say to piss off Glenn Danzig because he was always shooting his mouth off, of course I like the Misfits, but I digress... yep, I'm an old fart.
    Being an old fart, I've learned some patience. I've made my fair share of mistakes, I've ordered things that weren't 100% to my liking, but rather than piss and moan about it and have a knee jerk reaction, I try to calmly asses the situation and work on a fair compromise.

    You telling me to go away is funny. You brought this on yourself, and don't want to hear people tell you that you're acting childish. I'll go away after this post, but I'll ask you to do the same. I'll also ask you to grow up, and to relax. Having a hot head is going to be the death of you or having your ass handed to you (as Walt just did by setting the facts straight).

    I think you should compose yourself, work on your open appology to Walt and his wife for being a pest and hot head, and enjoy a fine steel ride... or you could sell it and get into Triathalons.... I'd glady give you $1 if you left the sport of MTB'ing (as I'm sure would others).

    Going away now, hoping you do the same.

  143. #143
    try driving your car less
    Reputation: jh_on_the_cape's Avatar
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    This is like a reality TV show!

    OK... everyone call walt at 2 am tonight!!!! just kidding!

    just a happy reminder that... retail sucks.
    Only boring people get bored.

  144. #144
    giddy up!
    Reputation: donkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    Yep. You also have to wonder about the ego and level of narcissism of somebody who uses the handle 5.14 climber.
    Soo true....even though there are probably only a few of us here that understand what exactly you're referring to:-)

    I've always said that pride and spray can turn any the most meaningful route into something worthless.

    B
    www.thepathbikeshop.com

  145. #145

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    Lessons learned

    How many times has 514 reminded us that he's got "guts" and 'courage" for standing up like this? This is not just about his bike, it's about his ego. He wants us to believe that he's doing us all a favor by demonstrating how being a loudmouth can get you what you want, whether you deserve it or not. The effect he had on me is the exact opposite.
    I now have far more respect for Walt Wehner and his bikes than ever, and I will certainly recommend him as a builder of integrity to anyone who asks. And should I ever receive less-than-expected service from anyone, be it a waiter or a framebuilder, I will remember how despicable 514 has come off sounding in this forum, and I'll vow to resolve my issues with far more class and tact than he has exhibited.

    And didn't Walt stipulate that he needed a public apology before doing anything for 514? Did I miss that post?

  146. #146
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    i hope walt takes the frame saver out of your frame and pisses in it instead... or better yet gets it back to you the day AFTER the race.

    you whine and complain about not having enough time to get ready for this race. and now rather than ride a slightly modified frame your gonna waste your time waiting for it to be fixed as opposed to riding an training for the race...

    you sir are an idiot... after hearing this, walt has more repsect from me than he ever did. i wouldn't have nearly his patience dealing withan a-hole like you.

  147. #147
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    Totally agree

    Quote Originally Posted by toddre
    please ...it's Time To Kill This Thread... It's Getting Way To Personal...same As The R.c. Thread

    Kom op Clokki, zet een slot er op a.u.b! Zeker als 514 geen sorry wil zeggen.

  148. #148
    indigosky
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected]
    Just for the record. Please never buy an on-one product.
    Brant, you rock!

  149. #149
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    If nothing else, the public has had their say on a public challenge.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

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