Time to close down this forum- Mtbr.com
Results 1 to 48 of 48
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    32

    Time to close down this forum

    Since we're all riding 29'ers - even the Euros have got the message. Shouldn't we start a 26'er forum for the minority hangouts?

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Washer Uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    39
    Nah I'll just keep inflating my tyres till there 29"


    Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2

  3. #3
    Upcyclist
    Reputation: Cornfield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    5,306
    Wow...this is my first time in the 29er forum.That sounds kinda cool though, I'm a 26" "minority hangout"

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Scott O's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2,016
    I will not sleep til all 26ers are wiped off the face of the earth. (Except for the ones in my basement until after I sell them).

  5. #5
    ~Reformed Mechanic~
    Reputation: Ace5high's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2,177
    Have you heard about the 26er that was going around attacking people? It was a vicious cycle...
    I do all my own stunts, but never intentionally...

  6. #6
    ONE speed under God.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    190
    26ers will be around forever, and one reason s they fit short riders better. My gf is 5'2 and I think a 29er is just too big a bike for her. It also takes more skill to ride than a 26er.
    Nashbar SS 29er
    K2 FS Attack
    Cannondale R600

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    170
    29er and 26er, hard to say which is better, the one fit you is the best!

  8. #8
    Recovering couch patato
    Reputation: Cloxxki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    14,017
    Quote Originally Posted by BIGABIGD View Post
    26ers will be around forever, and one reason s they fit short riders better. My gf is 5'2 and I think a 29er is just too big a bike for her. It also takes more skill to ride than a 26er.
    Seriously... Seriously?
    Your post has me absolutely baffled.

    Shorter girls than her get their best world cup performances on 29", and ALL women I've seen on 29" vastly improved in perceived riding skills. ALL.

    I called like a decade ago for inception of the 26" forum. these people need a place to go to, whatever is messed up in their heads, they deserve their asylum.
    Klok - XC - Skate - Ski

  9. #9
    The Duuude, man...
    Reputation: ncj01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,537
    I didn't note the HEIGHT of the women's final XC mtb race at the Olympics, but I did note they all appeared to be on 29er's. As an un-related aside - that German chick looked like a MAN baby...

    I always thought 29er's are EASIER to ride... due to be more stable, lower CG, etc.
    FS: Everything

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation: WarPigs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    803
    The world still needs 26" bikes, and smaller than that.

    My son is only 8, riding a 20" mtb, while my daughter is 11 years old, riding her mother's 26" bike, while my wife have upgraded to a Transition TA29.

    but eventually, they will be on 29ers
    Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

  11. #11
    Beer Me!
    Reputation: Guerdonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    2,109
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki View Post
    Seriously... Seriously?
    Your post has me absolutely baffled.

    Shorter girls than her get their best world cup performances on 29", and ALL women I've seen on 29" vastly improved in perceived riding skills. ALL.
    Oh man, I probably shouldn't even respond to this. But I respectfully disagree. If you want a 15deg stem drop, and in some cases riser bars flipped over, add in large amounts of potential toe overlap, strange seat tube angles etc.... Yes you can fit a 5'1" girl on a 29er bike but its not 100% good all the time. Yes some are done right, yes some actually work for shorter riders, but at the moment you have to make sure this is the case, as a lot of them are goofy with component "band-aids" to get them even close to comfortable.
    650B is a better option IMO for the shorter gals (my wife of 5'1" included).

    Back to the OP, yes several of the sub-forums seem a little screwy, like the 29er component where a lot of the questions are about derailleurs or brakes or something that has not much to do with an actual 29er. I don't know what a good solution would be though.
    "Any wheel size is better than sitting at a computer all day." -Myself

  12. #12
    ONE speed under God.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    190

    Idea!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki View Post
    Seriously... Seriously?
    Your post has me absolutely baffled.

    Shorter girls than her get their best world cup performances on 29", and ALL women I've seen on 29" vastly improved in perceived riding skills. ALL.

    I called like a decade ago for inception of the 26" forum. these people need a place to go to, whatever is messed up in their heads, they deserve their asylum.
    My post has you baffled? Why? Because you disagree with me? Please tell me where you became such an expert on this subject . I talked to 5 REAL experts before i bought her a new 26" kona and they all said shorter riders wil have a hard time on the 29er. Also, you've not even asked the skill level of the girl, and i can tell you she's not very skilled.

    When I first got my SS 29ER I noticed the low speed handling to be more cumbersome that on a 26... So when you factor in skill level on a short woman and a 29er --- prob not a good idea.

    And finally , just because the Olympic women were mostly on 29ers has no bearing on what the average 45 year old woman should be riding .
    Nashbar SS 29er
    K2 FS Attack
    Cannondale R600

  13. #13
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,198
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki View Post
    I called like a decade ago for inception of the 26" forum. these people need a place to go to, whatever is messed up in their heads, they deserve their asylum.




    Yep, all 2 dozen of them.












    Relax, its just a joke.

  14. #14
    Titanium junkie
    Reputation: Loudviking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,429
    [QUOTE=BIGABIGD;26ers will be around forever, and one reason s they fit short riders better. My gf is 5'2 and I think a 29er is just too big a bike for her.[B] It also takes more skill to ride than a 26er.[/B]


    Not gonna get into a pissing match, but on that statement
    you are wrong, in fact, VERY WRONG.
    I don't see how not having to pick a decent line at
    speed makes you a better rider with more skill on a 29er?
    Last edited by Loudviking; 08-15-2012 at 04:23 PM.
    Climb into the sky, never wonder why - Tailgunner
    You're a Tailgunner

  15. #15
    Hi.
    Reputation: jtmartino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,860
    26" bikes will be around forever, especially in the freeride/DJ/etc. realm.

    I love the fact that everyone is making the switch, because I can scoop up all of everyone's left over 26" stuff which suits me just fine .

  16. #16
    ~Reformed Mechanic~
    Reputation: Ace5high's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2,177
    Quote Originally Posted by khighfield View Post
    Since we're all riding 29'ers - even the Euros have got the message. Shouldn't we start a 26'er forum for the minority hangouts?
    When you started this thread you were in the green and now your in the red. Just curious but who exactly did you piss off with this thread enough to get put into the red?
    I do all my own stunts, but never intentionally...

  17. #17
    Happy Trails
    Reputation: Scott In MD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,189
    This thread rocks. Op genius. Just sAyin'

  18. #18
    gran jefe
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    2,692
    Quote Originally Posted by Ace5high View Post
    When you started this thread you were in the green and now your in the red. Just curious but who exactly did you piss off with this thread enough to get put into the red?
    i think i put him back in the green. you're welcome, kevin.
    Last edited by Bill in Houston; 08-15-2012 at 09:29 PM.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: portnoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    276

    Laugh now...

    ...soon you'll all be buried next to the 26ers as 27" comes to the fore. 29ers are just the missing link and, as such, will soon go the way of the Dodo.
    I'll be along... eventually.

  20. #20
    ONE speed under God.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    190
    [QUOTE=Loudviking;9596690]
    Quote Originally Posted by BIGABIGD;26ers will be around forever, and one reason s they fit short riders better. My gf is 5'2 and I think a 29er is just too big a bike for her.[B
    It also takes more skill to ride than a 26er.[/B]


    Not gonna get into a pissing match, but on that statement
    you are wrong, in fact, VERY WRONG.
    I don't see how not having to pick a decent line at
    speed makes you a better rider with more skill on a 29er?
    I'm not wrong , I'm very wrong? LMAO. What an aszhat comment. Like you have even the vaugest clue what you're talking about.

    Get a job, moron.
    Nashbar SS 29er
    K2 FS Attack
    Cannondale R600

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation: jmmUT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,409
    Meh, the fad will die out then the hardcores will just be a bunch of crotchety old drunks hanging out in the lower rungs of the mtbr forum list just like the singlespeeders regaling the days that they too were one of the forum options you got when moving the mouse over the forums button at the top of the page.

  22. #22
    RideDirt
    Reputation: aedubber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,253
    26ers will never die out , too much has been invested into them , they work, and they sell .. 29ers will fade off slowly in time .

    I think 650B will clean up the 29ers once and for all .. Seems like a 29er is more suited for XC , cant see it having long travel for any downhill or aggressive all mountain riding .

  23. #23
    ~Reformed Mechanic~
    Reputation: Ace5high's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2,177
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill in Houston View Post
    i think i put him back in the green. you're welcome, kevin.
    Haha.. Someone did and my measly rep wasn't it
    I do all my own stunts, but never intentionally...

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation: reydin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    1,074
    If it is time to close down this forum it's because it's devolved in one long bikesdirectwallgoosewinsor spam add/ which FS/HT is the best/should I buy, I ask because I never thought to use search question.
    If I had a black light this place would look like a Jackson Pollock painting.

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,046
    Quote Originally Posted by ncj01 View Post
    I didn't note the HEIGHT of the women's final XC mtb race at the Olympics, but I did note they all appeared to be on 29er's. As an un-related aside - that German chick looked like a MAN baby...

    I always thought 29er's are EASIER to ride... due to be more stable, lower CG, etc.
    Lower center of gravity- with both wheel's axles 1.5" higher than on a 26er?
    _

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,046
    29ers are already mainstream, and they'll continue to make inroads, partly because of the genuine advantages they possess for most riders, and partly because it's a great way for the bike industry to sell brand new bikes to people who otherwise would stick to what they have.
    The variety of wheel choices, unthinkable to most people a decade ago, is now reality. 26ers will lose market share, but still have a place, like someone said, for smaller riders (arguable), and for applications like DJ and slalom.
    _

  27. #27
    ONE speed under God.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    190
    Quote Originally Posted by uphiller View Post
    29ers are already mainstream, and they'll continue to make inroads, partly because of the genuine advantages they possess for most riders, and partly because it's a great way for the bike industry to sell brand new bikes to people who otherwise would stick to what they have.
    .
    ^ very good point. I never thought about the hugh boon that the 29er phenomenon has been for the bike business. And I know that in many bike companies 2013 line, there are not many 26er choices any more.

    But if anyone thinks that either 26ers are going away or 29ers are just a fad, you really need to be better informed .
    Nashbar SS 29er
    K2 FS Attack
    Cannondale R600

  28. #28
    Titanium junkie
    Reputation: Loudviking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,429
    [QUOTE=BIGABIGD;9597518]
    Quote Originally Posted by Loudviking View Post

    QUOTE BIGABIGD.I'm not wrong , I'm very wrong? LMAO. What an aszhat comment. Like you have even the vaugest clue what you're talking about.

    Get a job, moron.

    Don't think I got into name calling, and on top of my job, I
    also have a side business as well as work at a LBS when time allows.
    I do know what I am talking about, takes MORE skill
    to ride a 26er than a 29er. So why don't you give me your opinion
    on why I don't know what I am talking about sunshine?
    Climb into the sky, never wonder why - Tailgunner
    You're a Tailgunner

  29. #29
    ONE speed under God.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    190
    OK Viking - I take back the moron comment. sorry about that. I guess I've been on Yelp Talk too long, where calling someone a moron is pretty much a compliment.

    To answer your question, it was obvious to me the first time I made a U turn on my 29er when I almost went down that its handling was slower than on a 26er... and 5 months later, I still find the low speed handling of it to be more difficult than on my 26er. However, once I get it rolling, it does have an advantage over a 26er, in that it rolls quicker, and the quicker rolling helps going up hills on the trail, especially when you have the enhanced power transfer that an SS drivetrain provides.

    My GF, who is a 5'2 47 yr old woman with marginal biking skills, would not be able to confidently handle this bike. Obviously, the skilled female olympic riders can handle it, but that really has no bearing on the average woman, or short guy.

    So when you say I am VERY wrong, that may be your opinion, but just because it is your opinion does not make it true... especially since the owners of three LBS did not recommend a 29er for a short woman.

    Ohh, and to you cowardly anonymous aszhats who left me neg rep like you're scratching messages on the wall of a public bathroom stall regarding my sexual preferences, man up and post on the thread, or at least leave your name.
    Last edited by BIGABIGD; 08-16-2012 at 06:46 AM.
    Nashbar SS 29er
    K2 FS Attack
    Cannondale R600

  30. #30
    Hi.
    Reputation: jtmartino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,860
    Quote Originally Posted by BIGABIGD View Post


    So when you say I am VERY wrong, that may be your opinion, but just because it is your opinion does not make it true... especially since the owners of three LBS did not recommend a 29er for a short woman.
    Handling aside, 29ers have an easier time going over rough terrain than a 26er. That means riding a 29er is easier for most people. With a shorter stem and wider bars, the current favorable cockpit setup, handling issues are almost non-existent. This is supported by numerous MTB publications and by a tremendous number of people on mtbr. Me included.

    The discussion about frame geometry is not as valid today as it used to be - framebuilders are using slacker head tube angles to accommodate for toe overlap and are finding other ways to make 29ers accessible to shorter people. If you head over to the women's forum, you'll see a large group of shorter female riders who love their 29ers.

    It's really all up to personal preference. Making broad statements about a person's height and what bike best suits them just doesn't fly anymore.

  31. #31
    The Duuude, man...
    Reputation: ncj01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,537
    Yes, exactly.

    Axles higher, BB same height = lower CG.


    Quote Originally Posted by uphiller View Post
    Lower center of gravity- with both wheel's axles 1.5" higher than on a 26er?
    FS: Everything

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,046
    Well, I guess there are two ways of looking at it: the bike's CG, in which case the smaller the wheel size, the lower the CG, and the CG of the rider relative to the bike's CG, in which 29ers have a lower CG. Seems like it would take more body English to move the 29er, because the bb axle is below the hub axles, which is another way of stating the commonplace that 29ers are more stable than 26ers.
    _

  33. #33
    6x7=Dont Panic!
    Reputation: TheRedMantra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,014
    Okay... So I ride a 2012 Ibis 26er. I also ride a 1997 Klein rigid hardtail ss. I also ride a 2011 Giant FS 29er. I also ride a road bike. I would like to build a bmx and a trials bike, maybe a tt bike eventually. I have owned many kinds of bikes over the years, not just the ones listed.

    I don't care what I ride, just that I ride. Do I prefer a different type of bike for different trails? Sure. Will I rage downhill on a rigid 1990 Klein with XT cantilevers? Did it for years.

    Every bike only adds to my skill-set and ability to ride. No bike is better in EVERY way. No bike is perfect, thats (hopefully) why people design new ones. Can't we be more accepting of our biker bretheren and concentrate our passion on building and promulgating the sport?

    My point is that we learn to be better riders through experience. The bike can influence your understanding of riding dynamics but in the end it is only a tool that brings you freedom. Peace y'all
    Herro prease

  34. #34
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,198
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRedMantra View Post
    Okay... So I ride a 2012 Ibis 26er. I also ride a 1997 Klein rigid hardtail ss. I also ride a 2011 Giant FS 29er. I also ride a road bike. I would like to build a bmx and a trials bike, maybe a tt bike eventually. I have owned many kinds of bikes over the years, not just the ones listed.

    I don't care what I ride, just that I ride. Do I prefer a different type of bike for different trails? Sure. Will I rage downhill on a rigid 1990 Klein with XT cantilevers? Did it for years.

    Every bike only adds to my skill-set and ability to ride. No bike is better in EVERY way. No bike is perfect, thats (hopefully) why people design new ones. Can't we be more accepting of our biker bretheren and concentrate our passion on building and promulgating the sport?

    My point is that we learn to be better riders through experience. The bike can influence your understanding of riding dynamics but in the end it is only a tool that brings you freedom. Peace y'all


    It doesn't help with the natural flow of the forum when you don't pick a side and strictly adhere to that sides rhetoric. It just kinda Joneses things up bein all sensible and stuff.
    Last edited by AZ; 08-16-2012 at 05:20 PM.

  35. #35
    Titanium junkie
    Reputation: Loudviking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,429
    Quote Originally Posted by BIGABIGD View Post
    OK Viking - I take back the moron comment. sorry about that. I guess I've been on Yelp Talk too long, where calling someone a moron is pretty much a compliment.

    To answer your question, it was obvious to me the first time I made a U turn on my 29er when I almost went down that its handling was slower than on a 26er... and 5 months later, I still find the low speed handling of it to be more difficult than on my 26er. However, once I get it rolling, it does have an advantage over a 26er, in that it rolls quicker, and the quicker rolling helps going up hills on the trail, especially when you have the enhanced power transfer that an SS drivetrain provides.

    My GF, who is a 5'2 47 yr old woman with marginal biking skills, would not be able to confidently handle this bike. Obviously, the skilled female olympic riders can handle it, but that really has no bearing on the average woman, or short guy.

    So when you say I am VERY wrong, that may be your opinion, but just because it is your opinion does not make it true... especially since the owners of three LBS did not recommend a 29er for a short woman.

    Ohh, and to you cowardly anonymous aszhats who left me neg rep like you're scratching messages on the wall of a public bathroom stall regarding my sexual preferences, man up and post on the thread, or at least leave your name.
    And I understand your points, my view was given as that is what a 29er was
    made for, easier time when ridden, compared to a 26er. I have just taken possession
    of a 2012 Giant Anthem X 29er, so maybe I will change my view on this subject
    with some more time in the saddle( and NO, the Airborne 26er will always be with me)
    and see how the Anthem does with my type of riding. I do Thank you for responding,
    and do agree that the neg repping is B.S. and to the *******s that did it, it
    didn't bother me that he had a different opinion than me, that's what the forums are about,
    and he came back on and hashed it out with me. To me that deserves + rep.
    Climb into the sky, never wonder why - Tailgunner
    You're a Tailgunner

  36. #36
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    7,930
    Quote Originally Posted by jtmartino View Post
    26" bikes will be around forever, especially in the freeride/DJ/etc. realm.

    I love the fact that everyone is making the switch, because I can scoop up all of everyone's left over 26" stuff which suits me just fine .
    May I ask, then, why are you hanging around in the 29'er forum?

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation: thewake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    207
    This post has got me thinking. It seems to be the generally accepted dogma that 29ers are well suited to XC but that 26ers will continue to have their place in the DH/DJ world.

    Now, a 26er for DJ or trials I get. You definitely want a very sturdy wheel and the ride benefits of a 29er wouldn't translate to a pump track, also when in the air those big hoops are likely more burden then benefit. The same applies for trials. So that I get.

    But since 29 inch wheels do smooth out the trail and make it easier to rider over obstacles, I would think that this would be a benefit that the DH community would want to exploit? and yet, it has not. Is it strictly because of wheel strength? Is it not possible to get DH geometry to play nice with the larger wheels? what's the reason?

    I'm strictly an XC rider, so I don't know much about DH, I'm just curious, is all.

  38. #38
    Hi.
    Reputation: jtmartino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,860
    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy View Post
    May I ask, then, why are you hanging around in the 29'er forum?
    I ride both.

  39. #39
    sofa king awsm
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    585
    While I enjoy 29ers (I might get one) I don't think it's the 29er that is putting the 26er out to pasture but it's the 650b.
    Baby, I want my face to be your quiver killer.

  40. #40
    RideDirt
    Reputation: aedubber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,253
    " Its not the bike that makes the rider , but its the rider that makes the bike "

    Quote from me , pass it on my children !

  41. #41
    artistic...
    Reputation: colker1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,440
    Cycling is much bigger in Europe than US.. Bikes are way more important as means of transportation in Latin America and Asia than the US. 29ers are big in the US... only. It didn't find traction anywhere else.
    Those markets make for a lot of business for Trek, Specialized and Giant. Those 3 decide a lot when it comes to future of MTB. There you go.

  42. #42
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    3,161
    the first dozen or so posts on this thread, made me vomit in my mouth.

  43. #43
    meow meow
    Reputation: b-kul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    10,621
    my dick is bigger then yours.....




    thats what we are posting about right?

  44. #44
    ONE speed under God.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    190
    Hasn't there been enough 29er v 26er debate on here? I am very surprised that this idiotic debate still goes on.

    All bikes are good . Ride whatever bike you want and and you will have fun. This is not rocket science .
    Nashbar SS 29er
    K2 FS Attack
    Cannondale R600

  45. #45
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    379
    Why are so many 29er riders defensive about their choice of ride?

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    379
    Quote Originally Posted by ncj01 View Post
    Yes, exactly.

    Axles higher, BB same height = lower CG.
    No it doesn't. A center of gravity is simply that. To equate it with three static measurements, without even taking into consideration rider position is incorrect.

  47. #47
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,198
    Quote Originally Posted by smellurfingers View Post
    Why are so many 29er riders defensive about their choice of ride?


    Cause they are tired of being bitten on the ankles by 26er riders?

  48. #48
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    379
    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Cause they are tired of being bitten on the ankles by 26er riders?
    Does this mean they are being bitten on the hands at the same time?

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2020 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.