Ti El Mariachi !!- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Good job! Ti El Mariachi !!

    Its official ,The new salsa EM is going to be a lynskey built Ti frame!!!

  2. #2
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    rad. anyone want a steel one? curious to see if an XL ti is as stiff as the current model.
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  3. #3
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    Hope thats true. Would love to add another salsa to the stable!
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    Picture ti EM

    Here is a pic.
    Last edited by fc; 12-09-2009 at 02:31 PM.

  5. #5
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    Also appears to be geared only now!
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  6. #6
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    Cool. Thats Exactly what I have been waiting for. Although its missing some Salsa flare (colour) on the logo.
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  7. #7
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    Yawn. Another Ti colored Ti bike.

  8. #8
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    Why not just buy a Lynskey direct from Lynskey??

  9. #9
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    Weird geo on the lynskeys. (for me)

    I`ve been looking at the Ridgline, Small is a tad short, medium would kill my gonads on a fast dismount.

    I`m thinking that maybe salsa has its geo dialled, with better tyre clearence and no sliperty sliders?
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  10. #10
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    Now to wait patiently for everyone to dump their steel bikes ...
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  11. #11
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    This is a bit of a surprise after Salsa categorically denied having a ti. bike in the immediate pipeline. I guess it'd take all the fun out of it if the manufacturers 'fessed up what they were doing all the time though. I'm going to assume the SRP of the El Mariachi frame is going to go up...
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  12. #12
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    Salsa says this info and the photo is highly sensitive. I removed the photo from the this thread.

    Please respect their request.

    francois
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  13. #13
    fc
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    Ok, sorry about that.

    Salsa did their damage control and said this is ok for public consumption now.

    Sometimes manufacturers ask us to take down a photo that is leaked because they are not ready to release it or have a big announcement or effort coming up. We'll try to take it down once to help them out. But we all know from tmz.com that once it's leaked, it's out.

    Anyway, here again.

    fc

    <img src="https://gallery.mtbr.com/data/mtbr/500/ti_Mariachi_Frame_22.JPG">
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  14. #14
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    Hott (although the current El Mar's BB is too low for my taste). Anyone wanna speculate on the price?
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  15. #15
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    Now if only it came with Paragon sliding dropouts, it would be a slam dunk.

    <HT> Bikes w/out either Paragon or EBB's seem too limiting these days...
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  16. #16
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    Hawt! I love the lack of stickers too!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncj01
    Now if only it came with Paragon sliding dropouts, it would be a slam dunk.

    <HT> Bikes w/out either Paragon or EBB's seem too limiting these days...

    Not me...I'm glad to see a geared only frame like this. Sliders/EBB on EVERY 29er is so outdated. Ideally they should offer one geared only and one SS only....

  18. #18
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    I`m chuffed to bits.

    I hate sliders.
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  19. #19
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    Not that I'm complaining, but it's surprisingly understated in the graphics department for a Salsa.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by RacerX.29
    Not that I'm complaining, but it's surprisingly understated in the graphics department for a Salsa.
    which is a good thing..."blasted" graphics are very rad!

  21. #21
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    Does this replace the Steel El Mariachi or just add to that "base" frame offering with a Ti version?

    Seems like the El Mariachi was a "bread and butter" frame for Salsa in steel. Would they scrap it altogether for just a Ti offering?

  22. #22
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    I`m pretty sure a steel is also in the pipeline.

    http://www.salsacycles.com/amigos/
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  23. #23
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    Hardly looks any different from anything else they make,sorry boring.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by fux
    I hate sliders.
    My money's on swingers.

  25. #25
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    Oh my gosh this is the best frame I have ever seen... El Mariachi geo, Ti, and Salsa finesse... and geared only. Wowee wow wow wow!

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mplsmtb
    My money's on swingers.
    Oh wow. I'd order one right now.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by fux
    I`m pretty sure a steel is also in the pipeline.

    http://www.salsacycles.com/amigos/
    Steel is coming. So is a single speed.

    As of now the titanium bike is geared only. No plans for a single speed titanium version as of now. That could change in the future.
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  28. #28
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    Nice! Good to see salsa with a Ti offering. Interested in pricing, geo, and est availability. I've got nothing but good things to say about my la cruz, haven't ridden any of the salsa mtbs.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois
    Ok, sorry about that.

    Salsa did their damage control and said this is ok for public consumption now.

    Sometimes manufacturers ask us to take down a photo that is leaked because they are not ready to release it


    That's just silly

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loudpawlz


    That's just silly
    Welcome to a "consumer" review site...where the mfg's call the shots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    No plans for a single speed titanium version as of now. That could change in the future.
    I hope that's a mistake, or they lost a sale.

  32. #32
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    Once a Homer always a Homer

    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    Hawt! I love the lack of stickers too!
    You make the Turner and Lenz owners look unbiased

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mplsmtb
    My money's on swingers.
    I'd say swingers are a pretty good bet based on the hints that have been dropped around here by folks who are likely to know.

    My take on the Ti El Mariachi: I hope is has some compelling geometry numbers that set it apart from the rest of the herd of Ti bikes made by Lynskey. There's some fierce competition in the affordable Ti market, it seems like Lynskey is competing with themselves quite a bit.

  34. #34
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    I would much prefer the Ti Frame offered w/ the '07 gusseted seat tube version. It would look WAY cooler.

    And contrary to most posts on this Thread, I would actually prefer the Ti Frame w/ an EBB. Maybe pop the NINER BIO EBB in there. I just love the versatility of having the option of geared or SS especially for those who can't afford to have a "stable".

    PF

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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by 29Inches
    You make the Turner and Lenz owners look unbiased
    Next up is a Lynskey Turner collaborative effort that will involve a DW-Turner designed w/ Lynskey Ti Helix-tubed construction and of course custom PUSH rockers

  36. #36
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    Looks more like a Performance than Lynskey

    is this revolutionary? a lot of fuss about this up to now. what is the geo?
    Why are there so many threads about cheap ass bikes?

  37. #37
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    uhmm..... me like it

  38. #38
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    I really like it.I do hope the geo numbers are the same as the steel el mar.

    And no EBB is good IMHO. The offerings of Trickstuff and Forward Components (and of course ENO) make sliders/EBB almost prehistoric.
    Track ends are a bit on the cheap side. Again IMHO.
    Last edited by DiDaDunlop; 12-11-2009 at 12:20 AM. Reason: spelling

  39. #39
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    Looks pretty cool. Nice to see a return to plain old geared hard tail. If priced right I am sure they will sell many.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by PanFry
    I would much prefer the Ti Frame offered w/ the '07 gusseted seat tube version. It would look WAY cooler.

    And contrary to most posts on this Thread, I would actually prefer the Ti Frame w/ an EBB. Maybe pop the NINER BIO EBB in there. I just love the versatility of having the option of geared or SS especially for those who can't afford to have a "stable".

    PF
    Speaking of titanium EBB's, are there any good examples of this? I can't seem to come up with a titanium frame in my mind that uses that tensioning system. It seems most use sliders. Anybody have any examples out there?
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Speaking of titanium EBB's, are there any good examples of this? I can't seem to come up with a titanium frame in my mind that uses that tensioning system. It seems most use sliders. Anybody have any examples out there?
    Jeff Jones

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hairllama
    Jeff Jones
    Ahh! Good call. Okay, so there is such an animal. Well, my vote would be for a split shell EBB.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Ahh! Good call. Okay, so there is such an animal. Well, my vote would be for a split shell EBB.
    You do love that split shell, don't you. I've never tried one . . . yet.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Ahh! Good call. Okay, so there is such an animal. Well, my vote would be for a split shell EBB.
    The only way I would buy a Ti bike with an EBB would be the split shell style....all of the others just have way too many pitfalls for my taste.

    This is coming from someone who's struggled with a bushnell in a Ti frame for 5 or 6 years:-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by donkey
    The only way I would buy a Ti bike with an EBB would be the split shell style....all of the others just have way too many pitfalls for my taste.

    This is coming from someone who's struggled with a bushnell in a Ti frame for 5 or 6 years:-)

    B
    What is different about a Ti EBB from one is steel? I'm guessing is has to do with shell distortion and the greater elasticity of Ti. Right?

  46. #46
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    Only question I have is how much does this COST?

  47. #47
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    looking forward to the geo numbers, I think this could be a great geared set up with a fat front tire

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    Quote Originally Posted by 41ants
    Only question I have is how much does this COST?
    Agreed, that is the question. Can a company like Salsa move enough of these frames to bring the price point down below the cost of a TI frame from one of the small custom guys? If this frame ends up coming in at $1800 I might as well pay the extra $100 or $150 for a Quiring (local to me) and get a custom fit to boot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stahr_Nut
    Agreed, that is the question. Can a company like Salsa move enough of these frames to bring the price point down below the cost of a TI frame from one of the small custom guys? If this frame ends up coming in at $1800 I might as well pay the extra $100 or $150 for a Quiring (local to me) and get a custom fit to boot.
    The should easily be able to do that. I only hope they can move enough frames to get the cost down to a bikesdirect ti frame

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    Geo

    Quote Originally Posted by GlowBoy
    Hott (although the current El Mar's BB is too low for my taste). Anyone wanna speculate on the price?

    Well, wait for the published geometry to make your judgement.

  51. #51
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    I love it but I'd still like to see some retro Salsa decals on it.
    I wonder if I can get some decals for the current steel version to use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 41ants
    The should easily be able to do that. I only hope they can move enough frames to get the cost down to a bikesdirect ti frame
    this would be nice - but very unlikely; as selling price has a lot to do with distribution method -- actually more than with volume or manufacturing cost

    although it is the same in all industries; many people still find it hard to accept that over half the final price is not product related -- in many cases; 65% to 80% of retail price is distribution cost after the product is manufactured

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by 41ants
    The should easily be able to do that. I only hope they can move enough frames to get the cost down to a bikesdirect ti frame
    I wouldn't be so sure about that. Being a Bandersnatch and Jabberwocky owner I've kept a pretty close eye on the Optimus TI over the years. IIRC it has bounced around from $1600 to as high as $1900 (the year Lynskey made them) and has currently settled at $1700. Not 100% sure but I believe they're being made my Dean for 2010.

  54. #54
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    I am sure that this would be a very good bike, but the old one looked sooo much better.

    If I was after a new bike (which I am not) I would just go straight to Lynskey. Might as well keep the business with the people who actually make the things, rather than the paper pushers at QBP.

    In my experience of riding (for a few months) a 26" Ti hardtail and (very briefly) a Ti 29er, alongside my steel 29er, I think that the benefits of titanium are more worthwhile in a 26 inch bike. There is a lot of metal and, more importantly, a lot of wheel and tyre on a 29er to dampen things outr.

    As much as I am happy with 29 inch wheels and as much as I think titanium is bomber, I cannot help but think that the titanium 29er is the new bicycle of choice for dentists.
    Last edited by C Dunlop; 12-12-2009 at 07:39 AM.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Dunlop
    As much as I am happy with 29 inch wheels and as much as I think titanium is bomber, I cannot help but think that the titanium 29er is the new bicycle of choice for dentists.

    Don`t you mean carbon?
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  56. #56
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    Price?

    If On One is selling their Lynskey made ti frame for around $1200, I am really curious what sort of pricing power a larger company like Salsa will have .
    You cannot go against nature, because when you do, its part of nature too.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ottoreni
    If On One is selling their Lynskey made ti frame for around $1200, I am really curious what sort of pricing power a larger company like Salsa will have .

    Most likely higher prices; that is the way it works out in most cases. The distribution method for On One is much different than Salsa.

    Remember most the cost of most items is distribution cost.

    example: inner tubes cost about 49 cents to make. How much are they at your LBS? $3.95? $4.95? 5.95?

    BTW - I wonder if shoppers would be interested in buying 20 tubes at a time for $2.50 each delivered? Or 50 at a time for $1.75 each?

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ottoreni
    If On One is selling their Lynskey made ti frame for around $1200, I am really curious what sort of pricing power a larger company like Salsa will have .
    Actually, I'm getting $1302.00 for an exchange rate on the On One this morning, so that is a bit more than you are thinking here. Added to this fact is that On One is showing 12 frames in stock. By the time Salsa gets this frame out, (late winter/early spring 2010) I would suspect that these frames will be gone and if a new batch is coming, this price for On One frames may very well be changing.

    We also don't have any details on the frame from Salsa which may play into the pricing.

    I think it would be wise to wait to compare apples to apples, but that is just me perhaps.
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  59. #59
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    finally a replacement for my rusting mary

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    Another Ti hard tail

    Another Ti frame from Lynskey, ah, we already have a few choices here.

    At a high level the only distinguishing factor for the new Ti salsa frame is brand recognition, not really a different product (especially for a brand I recognize as light from scandium, fast and affordable). I have owned three salsas, and brand recognition matters to me, but not if it a rebadged bike from another maker. One differentiation to make it stand out could be price, but BikesDirect and On-one will be hard to beat in the budget Ti market. I guess I just don't see this as an innovation.

    Let's think about a huge salsa sucess from a media/recognition standpoint (I can't speak for sales): The Dos Niner.

    The reason the dos niner was a hit was because no one else was making a 29er softail; Salsa re-invented the softail, a previously dying design. Now several folks copied salsa and softails have become hip again.

    Like mentioned in another post, the Salsa Dos Niner is getting a little tired. I would love to see a dos niner designed to remove the rear triangle at a reasonable price point (the other options are 2K+). Scandium would be good, Ti would even be better....

    Be the first to build an affordable travel softail frame, create a new market niche, and the bike will be a hit, just like the original dos niner was.

    Salsa--do something new/different/better to stand out.

    Thanks!

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugor
    I love it but I'd still like to see some retro Salsa decals on it.
    I wonder if I can get some decals for the current steel version to use.
    The could do the half powdercoat treatment like the Fatback uses. Something like that could be pretty cool.

  62. #62
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    Lord knows QBP hates to stock large frames so my bet is that the XL are toast now in Ti.

    I think the only appealing thing here besides the Salsa on the Downtube is the potential for a large company to price point a Ti frame well in reach of us peons who add 29ers to their collection of bikes in the garage rather than a one bike garage with one bling bling bike. Or the working class stiff we all really are

    I like Salsa and am not bagging on them. I am just trying to see what is new and different here when the El Mar to me was unique because of its True Temper Rigid feel and Geometry. I was waiting for a revolutionary announcement

    I hope the Ti prices well below VooDoo because I see nothing here that jumps out as unique for my personal usage

    I am only surprised and I am not qualified to judge the industry or market on any other level apart from my own consumption so take this for what it is worth

    And I vote for sliders not the EBB

    Peace
    Why are there so many threads about cheap ass bikes?

  63. #63
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    Since we're all dropping wishlists, I would like a little more punch to the "graphics" ala Quiring Punisher bike:



    I would also want a SS to replace my Niner One9 with these Black Cat dropouts:


  64. #64
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    Another Ti frame from Lynskey, ah, we already have a few choices here.
    I am just trying to see what is new and different here when the El Mar to me was unique because of its True Temper Rigid feel and Geometry. I was waiting for a revolutionary announcement
    You know, I find these sort of statements head scratchers. #1- A bicycle company proposes another double diamond framed 29"er hardtail made of titanium and it is criticised for being "another choice"? Here in the forums where I see "more choices are good' written all the time? Like titanium is some sort of "whatever" material. (You guys must really roll eyes at any aluminum 29"er frames.)

    That sort of comment is just weird.

    #2- Ahh.........the steel El Mariachi caught your imagination. So take that same heritage and make it in titanium and suddenly it isn't worth doing? It isn't taking the classic El Mar to the next level?

    Again- bizarre thinking.

    Give me some alternatives to Lynskey that would be "better", or "more unique". How about telling us what would be "more revolutionary"?

    As far as the pricing comments go, it is becoming quite plain to me that a large group of mountain bikers are looking at titanium in a generic sense. It is very apparent when talking the BikesDirect frame. Somehow frame details, tubing choices, and construction techniques are not part of the conversation anymore. Which is understandable to a degree. Most folks either don't see those things, or can not see those things. Salsa will have its work cut out trying to market those things as something worth more than what "cheaper" alternatives have to offer.

    I'll say it here: You get what you pay for. Titanium is no different. If Salsa does something unique in the details, and it can be communicated effectively in terms of trail performance, than that will be how its value should be judged. If they do not, they should fail. If you're buying purely on price, don't even consider it. Get a BikesDirect, Carver, or On One frame. Have fun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hairllama
    The could do the half powdercoat treatment like the Fatback uses. Something like that could be pretty cool.
    Like the Fatback I saw with the red paint over a polished frame with the stays clear coated to look like they were chromed? Yeah!

    I love that look. But that would be major $$$.
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    Quote Originally Posted by twelve_volt_man
    ......Let's think about a huge salsa sucess from a media/recognition standpoint (I can't speak for sales): The Dos Niner.

    The reason the dos niner was a hit was because no one else was making a 29er softail; Salsa re-invented the softail, a previously dying design. Now several folks copied salsa and softails have become hip again.
    Moots has been making a 29"er soft tail since 1999.

    As for "several companies"- I suppose if Salsa, Moots, and Siren count with the possible additions of the super rare Curtlo, Castellano, and Funk built LaRuta. (Which they don't really- this seems to be about actual mass produced frames and not custom, low production number stuff)

    Like mentioned in another post, the Salsa Dos Niner is getting a little tired. I would love to see a dos niner designed to remove the rear triangle at a reasonable price point (the other options are 2K+). Scandium would be good, Ti would even be better...
    And a titanium soft tail from Salsa wouldn't be 2K? If not, it would be pretty dang close, considering the complexity of the design. Heck, even a BikesDirect, Carver, or On One hard tail frame are all over a grand. And then you ask for "affordable"?



    Be the first to build an affordable travel softail frame, create a new market niche, and the bike will be a hit, just like the original dos niner was.

    Salsa--do something new/different/better to stand out.

    Thanks!
    I can tell you that Salsa is definitely very hard at work trying to do just what you are asking. I happen to know several Salsa employees very well, and they would love to do nothing more than have something "new/different/better" to offer. I can also specifically tell you that the Dos Niner is very much on their minds.
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    GT: Thanks for the considerations

    Thanks for the thorough responses to my original post.

    The objective of my original post was from the eyes of someone trying to make money by selling a product and I should have stated so, I think you looked at my responses from a consumer point of view (I am all for competition and more choices, trust me).

    If I were in the marketing group at QBP (or salsa) I would want to understand the potential return on capital investment (ROCE) from any product, and from my point of view the low to mid price range for titanium frames is a saturated market and it would be hard to derive value (in terms of ROCE) from a titanium frame. The strategy here might be to expand the brand into the titanium market at the expense of ROCE, which might be worth it in the long run, but I think it will very very hard for this to be a revenue generator for QBP.

    As far as the dos niner, you are right; previous companies have made softails since the 90's, but I do think salsa reinvigorated that softail niche market with an "affordable" softail frame that led to increased competition from other companies (but none at the same price point as salsa except curtlo). Even if salsa put out a 2k titanium softail, it would be on the cheaper end of the current softail selection and would come from a company with a well performing softail model (which helps).

    OR make the new dos niner a travel bike of any material, then you have created pretty much a new product without competition (siren may compete here a little bit), and I think you have a home run. Why a travel frame? There is a lot of buzz around the tranny (much like there was with the original dos niner), and salsa could beat the market to the punch with a product that offers more features (travel and softail) at a price point below the custom frame makers. Is a travel dos niner more practical for people--probably not. I am sure very few people will use it to travel (same goes for the tranny), but the novelty is what is the selling point.

    I could be completely wrong on my above assessment, as I don't work in the cycling industry, but the above is my two cents from the eyes of someone within QBP who determines the business value of launching a new product.

    Long post from marketing guy with a cycling habit.

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    A Lynskey is a Lynskey.....

    Price....On One Ti frame I get a price of $1239 to my door. In the USA we dont pay the VAT tax. Frame 695 pounds plus 70 pounds shipping. Google exchange rate is $1.62 per pound. Do the math. Way closer to $1200 than than $1300. 695 x 1.62 = $1125 US.

    Really $1125. Shipping fees you can look at as the state tax most will have to pay for a LBS frame.

    $1125 for a Lynskey made frame designed with On One geo. I am certain Lynskey is not going to build a substandard frame.

    Also noted by Guitar Ted, On One has few frames in stock. It seems that they always have at most 5 of each size in stock. I am certain Salsa will have Lynskey build more than just 5 per batch. More should equal less $.

    Compare apples to apples. I agree with G-Ted. Bikes-direct, Carver, and Voodoo are all Chinese frames and tubesets.

    On One is a fair comparison...Lynskey made, bent seat-tube, and ovalized downtube. It is not a "cheap" frame or made in a sweat shop in China.

    Essentially this frame is a Lynskey with Salsa's Geometry. Are they going to use a special tubeset? Is there a premium for Salsa's geometry. Interesting questions, but as I stated, I really believe Lynskey will build a stellar frame. How Salsa decides to price it, will dictate the success of the frame.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Moots has been making a 29"er soft tail since 1999.

    As for "several companies"- I suppose if Salsa, Moots, and Siren count with the possible additions of the super rare Curtlo, Castellano, and Funk built LaRuta. (Which they don't really- this seems to be about actual mass produced frames and not custom, low production number stuff)



    And a titanium soft tail from Salsa wouldn't be 2K? If not, it would be pretty dang close, considering the complexity of the design. Heck, even a BikesDirect, Carver, or On One hard tail frame are all over a grand. And then you ask for "affordable"?





    I can tell you that Salsa is definitely very hard at work trying to do just what you are asking. I happen to know several Salsa employees very well, and they would love to do nothing more than have something "new/different/better" to offer. I can also specifically tell you that the Dos Niner is very much on their minds.
    Looks like someone is working on getting themselves a "test bike" for a "pro review"! Way to lay it on thick GT, but tell me how do you ride with such obviously sore knees?

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyescream
    Looks like someone is working on getting themselves a "test bike" for a "pro review"! Way to lay it on thick GT, but tell me how do you ride with such obviously sore knees?
    Eyescream, your post made me chuckle a little bit because I too see a fair bit of homer-isim for Salsa in GT's posts on a regular basis.

    That said however I will say that I have met GT on one occasion and also that I know most of the principal folks at Salsa even better. His pro-salsa comments are well founded because the guys behind the scenes there are true cyclists designing and marketing bikes that they would want to ride first, and then selling them to the rest of us second. The nature of the people at Salsa and the reflection of their excitement for cycling in general that can be seen in the design of their most recent products are the reason why I would consider looking at a Salsa product over a similar one from another company. Not to take away from any other manufacturer, it's just that I don't have that same personal perspective of all the other frame designing companies out there. I think that GT just has a similar perspective as I do. Saying that Salsa is comprised of "paper pushers at QBP" as was used in a previous posters comment is just too far from the truth.

    Back to the main point here - This Ti bike represents a new focus for Salsa I think which is building on the bike models that have made the brand successful with thousands of riders up until now. If you already appreciated the El Mariachi for it's design features, quality, geometry, and brand identity than this bike is simply the ultimate version of that bike. Same can be said for the La Cruz model, or the Ala Carte. To many of us, who already identify with Salsa and their products, this has been a secret wish for a long while. I've even considered a custom Ti frame built to the specs of an El Mariachi in the past, and compared with a $3200+ IF frame this bike will be a bargain.

    The steel bike is still in a redesign phase but you will see that ultimately it will address all of the design characteristics of the previous generation in a more elegant version with (dare I say) more "revolutionary" features. Being that the Ti and steel bikes are in different stages of design and production this bike will be on the market much sooner, however ultimately I think we will see core models from Salsa being available in two parallel lines of steel and titanium to offer different levels of value and performance to basically the same "salsa" type of customer.

    Why would Salsa offer this bike when Lynskey already makes something similar? For enough people their brand identity and geometry will be enough. For others the fact that Salsa has been more involved in producing 29er platforms for a longer time than most other brands may be a consideration. Also consider that Lynskey has a relatively limited dealer base and if a buyer wants the help of a local dealer with their purchase only one of the two brands may be an option depending on which one their local shops support. There are tons of reason why people choose one brand over another. Being critical of more options in the market place just because there is already one or two options out there is odd. What are the advantages of having only a few options exactly? (Except of course from the perspective of that brand with the monopoly)

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by twelve_volt_man
    not if it a rebadged bike from another maker
    The steel El Mariachi was "yet another steel hardtail" that did quite well, and it was outsourced to Taiwan not Tennessee. All modern Salsa frames are "rebadged" from factories in Taiwan

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois

    <img src="https://gallery.mtbr.com/data/mtbr/500/ti_Mariachi_Frame_22.JPG">
    You know, looking at this bike in the photo again with that bend in the downtube/headtube junction, if someone told me this is a new Niner TI frame I would have believed them.

    Very sharp, clean looking frame.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATXSS
    Eyescream, your post made me chuckle a little bit because I too see a fair bit of homer-isim for Salsa in GT's posts on a regular basis.

    That said however I will say that I have met GT on one occasion and also that I know most of the principal folks at Salsa even better. His pro-salsa comments are well founded because the guys behind the scenes there are true cyclists designing and marketing bikes that they would want to ride first, and then selling them to the rest of us second. The nature of the people at Salsa and the reflection of their excitement for cycling in general that can be seen in the design of their most recent products are the reason why I would consider looking at a Salsa product over a similar one from another company. Not to take away from any other manufacturer, it's just that I don't have that same personal perspective of all the other frame designing companies out there. I think that GT just has a similar perspective as I do. Saying that Salsa is comprised of "paper pushers at QBP" as was used in a previous posters comment is just too far from the truth.

    Back to the main point here - This Ti bike represents a new focus for Salsa I think which is building on the bike models that have made the brand successful with thousands of riders up until now. If you already appreciated the El Mariachi for it's design features, quality, geometry, and brand identity than this bike is simply the ultimate version of that bike. Same can be said for the La Cruz model, or the Ala Carte. To many of us, who already identify with Salsa and their products, this has been a secret wish for a long while. I've even considered a custom Ti frame built to the specs of an El Mariachi in the past, and compared with a $3200+ IF frame this bike will be a bargain.

    The steel bike is still in a redesign phase but you will see that ultimately it will address all of the design characteristics of the previous generation in a more elegant version with (dare I say) more "revolutionary" features. Being that the Ti and steel bikes are in different stages of design and production this bike will be on the market much sooner, however ultimately I think we will see core models from Salsa being available in two parallel lines of steel and titanium to offer different levels of value and performance to basically the same "salsa" type of customer.

    Why would Salsa offer this bike when Lynskey already makes something similar? For enough people their brand identity and geometry will be enough. For others the fact that Salsa has been more involved in producing 29er platforms for a longer time than most other brands may be a consideration. Also consider that Lynskey has a relatively limited dealer base and if a buyer wants the help of a local dealer with their purchase only one of the two brands may be an option depending on which one their local shops support. There are tons of reason why people choose one brand over another. Being critical of more options in the market place just because there is already one or two options out there is odd. What are the advantages of having only a few options exactly? (Except of course from the perspective of that brand with the monopoly)
    Nicely written/expressed. I will say that when I first saw the frame I was a little underwhelmed. I guess I am getting jaded. However, if Salsa ever does a Ti SS version, that would be on my list for many reasons:

    I can't afford a custom.

    I already know I like the Salsa geo from other rides on the Selma and Dos, so it gives me a point of reference to go by.

    I like the Salsa brand for some reason. I do know one of the main guys a little bit, not real well, but the brand seems to be staffed by bike nuts and does a nice job of feeling small and 'core' without being that in reality. So, frankly, I would rather have Salsa on the DT then I would Lynskey, even if they do make it and even if it is not a 'cutting edge' product, whatever that may be....no helix tubes, etc.
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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtroy
    I can't afford a custom.
    If you can afford a Ti El Mariachi, you could afford a custom steel frame from any number of builders. I know, it's not Ti, but custom steel can be pretty nice.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hairllama
    If you can afford a Ti El Mariachi, you could afford a custom steel frame from any number of builders. I know, it's not Ti, but custom steel can be pretty nice.

    Yes it can be very nice, having owned several custom steel frames. But, as you pointed out, it is not Ti.
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  76. #76
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    I was scratching my head to see GT scratching his head to see me scratching my head back at him

    GT I love you man but your reviews are starting to read like bicycling magazine
    Why are there so many threads about cheap ass bikes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    (You guys must really roll eyes at any aluminum 29"er frames.)



    #2- Ahh.........the steel El Mariachi caught your imagination. So take that same heritage and make it in titanium and suddenly it isn't worth doing? It isn't taking the classic El Mar to the next level?

    Again- bizarre thinking.
    Yup to the alloy

    and tell me exactly what makes this anything like the steel one it replaced sept the name
    Why are there so many threads about cheap ass bikes?

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMKM
    Well, wait for the published geometry to make your judgement.
    Indeed I will! Thanks for that. There are a lot of judgments being thrown around here without knowing everything about the finished product.
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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ottoreni
    Price....On One Ti frame I get a price of $1239 to my door. In the USA we dont pay the VAT tax. Frame 695 pounds plus 70 pounds shipping. Google exchange rate is $1.62 per pound. Do the math. Way closer to $1200 than than $1300. 695 x 1.62 = $1125 US.

    Really $1125. Shipping fees you can look at as the state tax most will have to pay for a LBS frame.

    $1125 for a Lynskey made frame designed with On One geo. I am certain Lynskey is not going to build a substandard frame.

    Also noted by Guitar Ted, On One has few frames in stock. It seems that they always have at most 5 of each size in stock. I am certain Salsa will have Lynskey build more than just 5 per batch. More should equal less $.

    Compare apples to apples. I agree with G-Ted. Bikes-direct, Carver, and Voodoo are all Chinese frames and tubesets.

    On One is a fair comparison...Lynskey made, bent seat-tube, and ovalized downtube. It is not a "cheap" frame or made in a sweat shop in China.

    Essentially this frame is a Lynskey with Salsa's Geometry. Are they going to use a special tubeset? Is there a premium for Salsa's geometry. Interesting questions, but as I stated, I really believe Lynskey will build a stellar frame. How Salsa decides to price it, will dictate the success of the frame.

    It seems you think Motobecane Ti bikes are made in China or that the frames are made in China. This is NOT the case.

    Motobecane Ti frames are made in Taiwan and I gladly invite anyone who sees, tests, or buys one to compare the quality to any other Ti frame they can find.

    I feel the framework speaks for itself, but I agree it is performance that counts. I love it when owners and testers compare our Ti bikes to other brands - and the results I have heard have all been positive. IMHO, the performance of our FLY Ti models are as good or better than any Ti bikes sold at any price.

    There are plenty of posts and magazine articles on the Ti Motobecanes already; so it is easy to varify the quality, performance, and the country of origin.
    Last edited by bikesdirect; 12-13-2009 at 07:04 AM.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike Turner
    Yup to the alloy

    and tell me exactly what makes this anything like the steel one it replaced sept the name
    That's the point- nobody can tell you or me anything "exactly" about this frame, (other than the obvious) and that is why I am "scratching my head at you" since my interpretation of your original remarks was that the titanium version of the El Mar wasn't exciting.

    Personally I think titanium has a very unique ride that steel, carbon, and aluminum can not provide. Given that Salsa has a history of producing geometry/handling that some folks find satisfying, having a titanium option may be "revolutionary" to them.

    I get it if you just do not think titanium is exciting, cool, or worth buying. I can certainly see this as another hard tail frame that is made from a spendy metal. From that standpoint I suppose one could be "underwhelmed".

    So, give me something you would see as "revolutionary". What is it you are suggesting?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    So, give me something you would see as "revolutionary". What is it you are suggesting?
    A+ Scandium dos niner that breaks down for travel
    B+ Titanium dos niner that breaks down for travel

    (Otherwise, I have had my eyes on a voodoo zaka, and The new ti Mariachi won't be my 4th salsa).

  82. #82
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    To the graphics, understated is kinda cool, but that goes against everything that the Salsa brand stands for.

    I really wish I could test several Ti frames back to back and see why there's such a wide variance in pricing. Like why you can get a custom Quiring for under $2k and that'd only get you a base Lynskey house blendand, but could get you a Ti On-One, Vasago or M'becane, but not even a thought of a Black Sheep, Jones etc.

    For the price, MAYBE, but in just comparing other Ti frames to yours the weld quality on yours isn't as good - Sorry. [EDITED to add} I just browsed through the thread about your Ti a guy posted and just saw somoene else post some bigger, better quality pics and The welds look more like Alu welds than nice smooth, small Ti welds. Seriously I'd ask this guy to pull those pics if I were you, especially the one below and well the other below that too, actually just get him to pull all. If that's your customer base who is impressed by those welds, no wonder you do so well.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    It seems you think Motobecane Ti bikes are made in China or that the frames are made in China. This is NOT the case.

    Motobecane Ti frames are made in Taiwan and I gladly invite anyone who sees, tests, or buys one to compare the quality to any other Ti frame they can find.

    I feel the framework speaks for itself, but I agree it is performance that counts. I love it when owners and testers compare our Ti bikes to other brands - and the results I have heard have all been positive. IMHO, the performance of our FLY Ti models are as good or better than any Ti bikes sold at any price.

    There are plenty of posts and magazine articles on the Ti Motobecanes already; so it is easy to varify the quality, performance, and the country of origin.

    Last edited by LyNx; 12-13-2009 at 08:21 AM.
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    You're doing mtbr wrong, you're supposed to get increasingly offended by the implications that you're doing ANYTHING wrong.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx
    I really wish I could test several Ti frames back to back and see why there's such a wide variance in pricing. Like why you can get a custom Quiring for under $2k and that'd only get you a base Lynskey house blendand, but could get you a Ti On-One, Vasago or M'becane, but not even a thought of a Black Sheep, Jones etc.
    A lot of the variance comes from overhead and tubing selection. Quiring uses mostly straight gauge tubing that's not bent in any way while Black Sheep's tubes are heavily manipulated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ncj01
    Now if only it came with Paragon sliding dropouts, it would be a slam dunk.

    <HT> Bikes w/out either Paragon or EBB's seem too limiting these days...
    that applies to cheap frames... if you've got money for a ti frame, you can also afford an eno hub and be done with pesky sliders and creaky ebbs.

  85. #85
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    I keep comming back to look at this thing so It certainly has my attention.

    I would like to see white Salsa on the downtube and a blood red chilli on the seat tube please. like this.. https://www.bikeintuition.com/images/salsa_bike_2.jpg

    My fave salsa paintjob has to be this though..

    Last edited by fux; 12-13-2009 at 08:27 AM. Reason: link
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    Quote Originally Posted by fux
    I keep comming back to look at this thing so It certainly has my attention.
    You and everybody else. Folks can say that they don't care about this bike, but the counter on thread reads shows otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx
    To the graphics, understated is kinda cool, but that goes against everything that the Salsa brand stands for.

    I really wish I could test several Ti frames back to back and see why there's such a wide variance in pricing. Like why you can get a custom Quiring for under $2k and that'd only get you a base Lynskey house blendand, but could get you a Ti On-One, Vasago or M'becane, but not even a thought of a Black Sheep, Jones etc.

    For the price, MAYBE, but in just comparing other Ti frames to yours the weld quality on yours isn't as good - Sorry. [EDITED to add} I just browsed through the thread about your Ti a guy posted and just saw somoene else post some bigger, better quality pics and The welds look more like Alu welds than nice smooth, small Ti welds. Seriously I'd ask this guy to pull those pics if I were you, especially the one below and well the other below that too, actually just get him to pull all. If that's your customer base who is impressed by those welds, no wonder you do so well.




    If you think those are bad welds; I do not know what to tell you
    Many people; myself included; feel the welding on Ti Motobecanes is fantastic.
    Magazines have gone out of their way to call the frames 'stunning' when someother word like 'clean' or 'nice' would have been fine.

    We have had owners of new Ti Motos who also own Moots and Litespeed bikes say they prefer the workmanship on the Motos.

    IMHO; there is no better value in Ti and the workmanship is nothing short of totally beautiful.

    BTW - I have been offered frames from factories in China, in Taiwan, in Japan, and in the USA - I picked the one I use for quality and performance - not price.

    My feeling is: We will sell everyone we can get and the number out in the market will grow every year and the message I am trying to deliver will in time become commonly accepted thoughout the cycling community.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hairllama
    A lot of the variance comes from overhead and tubing selection. Quiring uses mostly straight gauge tubing that's not bent in any way while Black Sheep's tubes are heavily manipulated.

    Tubing is a cost difference; of course, Motobecane uses shaped, manipulated, double butted & tapper tubing.

    Some money can be saved with straight guage standard tubes; HOWEVER, the big cost is distribution cost. Some people do not want to understand that; I do not know why.

    On a different forum; a guy posted that he thought the reason a Kilo WT was half the price of the similar Surly Steamroller was that it used a different rear dropout. In some way, a $400 or $500 price difference was easier to explain with a $1 dropout that he could see; than with extra distribution costs that he could not see.

    Often the price of a bike is 65% distribtion cost; and in the case of some frames it can be 80% distribution cost.

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    Well they aren''t the cleanest weld I have seen on TI bikes but they look hella better that the welds on some other steel and alu bikes that I have.

    Nice welds but not heartstopping beautiful. But as long as they are structurally sound im fine..

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    Not going against you mike (I would love a one of your ti cyclocross frames, but not exactly easy to get hold of here in europe), but when it comes to weld esthetics, nothing beats the look of Kent Eriksen or moots.



    Looking at the welds alone doesn`t determine how the bike rides, or the quality though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fux
    Not going against you mike (I would love a one of your ti cyclocross frames, but not exactly easy to get hold of here in europe), but when it comes to weld esthetics, nothing beats the look of Kent Eriksen or moots.



    Looking at the welds alone doesn`t determine how the bike rides, or the quality though.

    You are totally correct -- Eriksen has nice looking welds -- and welds do not determine ride and quality in all cases. But it is nice to have clean welds: I think ours are very clean and flat amazing for production bikes




  92. #92
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    I am going to wade in here since it seems to be getting a little ugly.

    I ordered a Bikesdirect Ti frame and fork.
    I have put it together and like it.
    BUT what I don't like is the fact BD doesn't have a phone number and the fact they did not honor their price that was posted on their web page. They had a price of $999 for the frame and fork listed on their web site. It was listed for several days prior to my order and up to the day I ordered. In the order box it was $1099. I requested the lower price but they would not give it to me.
    If they were to spend as much time answering a phone or paying attention to updating their web page (where they do their business from) as they do posting here I would be a lot happier with them.
    I don't think it is Mike's job to come on here and describe how a distribution channel for bikes works and what the costs are. Mike how much do the ti tubes cost you, how much do you pay your factory workers, how much do you make on each frame?
    I think Bikes Direct would be better served by hooking up a phone line and working on their web page details vs. trying to come in here and promote their products. Just my not so humble opinion.
    My brain went from "you probably shouldn't say that" to WTF!

  93. #93
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    wherever you go, there you are

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    This is a funny comparison....not exactly apples to apples eh?

    The welds on my Moots bikes are pretty and that has absolutely nothing to do with their ride quality.

    The welds on my (steel) IF bikes are pretty too...those bikes ride wonderfully.

    The welds on my Karate Monkey are, uh, fine. Bike has more miles on it than any bike I own.

    The reason some bikes cost more than others has almost nothing to do with ride quality.

    Buy and ride what YOU like and don't try to justify the cost/decision to anyone else.

    LP

    PS - Good job Salsa! You guys have really hit the nail on the head with your recent designs.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    Many people; myself included; feel the welding on Ti Motobecanes is fantastic.Magazines have gone out of their way to call the frames 'stunning' when someother word like 'clean' or 'nice' would have been fine.

    We have had owners of new Ti Motos who also own Moots and Litespeed bikes say they prefer the workmanship on the Motos.

    IMHO; there is no better value in Ti and the workmanship is nothing short of totally beautiful..
    I sense a thread hijack in progress.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyescream
    Welcome to a "consumer" review site...where the mfg's call the shots.
    Hmmm, I've seen plenty of threads and posts that actually did require moderation or deletion that simply got ignored here...just saying.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockhound
    Hmmm, I've seen plenty of threads and posts that actually did require moderation or deletion that simply got ignored here...just saying.
    No way. Point to one.

    J/K

    Resale on the Salsa frame over the BD Ti frame should be considered also.
    Chasing bears through the woods drunk with a dull hatchet is strongly not advised

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by richwolf
    I am going to wade in here since it seems to be getting a little ugly.

    I ordered a Bikesdirect Ti frame and fork.
    I have put it together and like it.
    BUT what I don't like is the fact BD doesn't have a phone number and the fact they did not honor their price that was posted on their web page. They had a price of $999 for the frame and fork listed on their web site. It was listed for several days prior to my order and up to the day I ordered. In the order box it was $1099. I requested the lower price but they would not give it to me.
    If they were to spend as much time answering a phone or paying attention to updating their web page (where they do their business from) as they do posting here I would be a lot happier with them.
    I don't think it is Mike's job to come on here and describe how a distribution channel for bikes works and what the costs are. Mike how much do the ti tubes cost you, how much do you pay your factory workers, how much do you make on each frame?
    I think Bikes Direct would be better served by hooking up a phone line and working on their web page details vs. trying to come in here and promote their products. Just my not so humble opinion.

    Thanks for your order. I hope you like the frame.

    I have explained the phone deal in many posts - simply - it would increase prices by 7% over e-mail and it leaves no 'paper trail'

    For time to time; we do call customers based on special request; but that is not the same as adding a new layer of cost that everyone would have to pay.

    That said - we are very clear or try to be on our prices. Some sites do run one price today; another tomorrow; and special discount on tuesday; and secert code good only from the 10th to the 14th; etc -- I hate that -- I do not like it when products or services are sold at different prices to the same customers

    I like a one price policy -- period
    BUT sometimes we have a special price for PRE-BOOKS - where buyers pay early and wait to get the product

    In the case of Ti frames; this was made very clear -- pay $995 if comitting before the frames ever come in -- some customers waited 3 or 4 months -- and it was posted 'prices will go up after frames are received in stock' {so actually the buyers at the lower price were actually different customers who were willing to step up early}
    This is a special insentive for those that committ way in advance -- but your post shows me why I dislike even this limited special over a one price policy

    I would love to hear other thoughts on the question of 'IS IT FAIR TO OFFER A PRE_BOOK INCENTIVE' -- Shuld someone who books ahead and waits get a bit better deal?

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect

    I like a one price policy -- period
    BUT sometimes we have a special price for PRE-BOOKS - where buyers pay early and wait to get the product

    In the case of Ti frames; this was made very clear -- pay $995 if comitting before the frames ever come in -- some customers waited 3 or 4 months -- and it was posted 'prices will go up after frames are received in stock' {so actually the buyers at the lower price were actually different customers who were willing to step up early}
    This is a special insentive for those that committ way in advance -- but your post shows me why I dislike even this limited special over a one price policy

    I would love to hear other thoughts on the question of 'IS IT FAIR TO OFFER A PRE_BOOK INCENTIVE' -- Shuld someone who books ahead and waits get a bit better deal?
    not true mike and you are missing RICHWOLFS's point. feel free to offer incentives but honor the price you have posted on your web page.

    you kept the $999 price on your web page, after the frames have already been in stock.

    however, i had the same problem then the previous poster once the frame was in the shopping cart, the price went up to $1099. i requested the lower price via mail and you denied it.

    legally, you are obliged to honor the price you are posting on your web page. i decided not to further bother with this and went into a different direction since i don't like people play games with me.

    invest some more time into your web page and improve the quality. i am sure it will be a quick pay back. also, the customers should get the chance to call - not offering any phone number is ridicoulous. i understand you are trying to keep cost down, but being honest to your customers and available for questions won't increase cost ...

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    . . . I would love to hear other thoughts on the question of 'IS IT FAIR TO OFFER A PRE_BOOK INCENTIVE' -- Shuld someone who books ahead and waits get a bit better deal?
    Dude, are you sure this is the best place for your market research? I get it, you think your foreign produced Ti frame is great and want folks to buy it instead of the new El Mariachi.

  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellocook
    not true mike and you are missing RICHWOLFS's point. feel free to offer incentives but honor the price you have posted on your web page.

    you kept the $999 price on your web page, after the frames have already been in stock.

    however, i had the same problem then the previous poster once the frame was in the shopping cart, the price went up to $1099. i requested the lower price via mail and you denied it.

    legally, you are obliged to honor the price you are posting on your web page. i decided not to further bother with this and went into a different direction since i don't like people play games with me.

    invest some more time into your web page and improve the quality. i am sure it will be a quick pay back. also, the customers should get the chance to call - not offering any phone number is ridicoulous. i understand you are trying to keep cost down, but being honest to your customers and available for questions won't increase cost ...

    OH
    I did not understand that
    You mean the page said $995 and the checkout said $1095???
    That would be totally strange and against policy of course
    That sounds like an error in the site

    I do not see it at this time; but errors do happen
    BUT if this was an error - when it was fixed customers that purchased while the error was in place should be refunded the difference

    I will check into this first thing Monday

    Thanks for the heads up

  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by richwolf
    I am going to wade in here since it seems to be getting a little ugly.

    I ordered a Bikesdirect Ti frame and fork.
    I have put it together and like it.
    BUT what I don't like is the fact BD doesn't have a phone number and the fact they did not honor their price that was posted on their web page. They had a price of $999 for the frame and fork listed on their web site. It was listed for several days prior to my order and up to the day I ordered. In the order box it was $1099. I requested the lower price but they would not give it to me.
    If they were to spend as much time answering a phone or paying attention to updating their web page (where they do their business from) as they do posting here I would be a lot happier with them.
    I don't think it is Mike's job to come on here and describe how a distribution channel for bikes works and what the costs are. Mike how much do the ti tubes cost you, how much do you pay your factory workers, how much do you make on each frame?
    I think Bikes Direct would be better served by hooking up a phone line and working on their web page details vs. trying to come in here and promote their products. Just my not so humble opinion.

    If you feel there was an error in the site when you checked out
    please send me your info in a PM and any details you have

    errors on our site are rare; but they occur
    if there were two different prices stated at the same time; you should get the lower of the two

  103. #103
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    Dude

    Quote Originally Posted by Hairllama
    Dude, are you sure this is the best place for your market research? I get it, you think your foreign produced Ti frame is great and want folks to buy it instead of the new El Mariachi.
    I think you should go back and read the whole thread. He commented on the El Mariachi price point vs. his frame.

    He did not bash anything.

    OT..........Me thinks the El M looks great. However for my tastes I would rather have the Lynskey vs. the El M.

  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee
    He did not bash anything.
    Not directly. I was just reading between the lines of his self promotion.

  105. #105
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    I hear ya

    Quote Originally Posted by Hairllama
    Not directly. I was just reading between the lines of his self promotion.
    Alot of that on the 29'er board.

    The only difference is the Bikes Direct guy doesn't post ride pictures to promote his business.

    Maybe because he is preceived as a "big box guy" and the others are smaller so it is ok?

  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    Thanks for your order. I hope you like the frame.

    I have explained the phone deal in many posts - simply - it would increase prices by 7% over e-mail and it leaves no 'paper trail'

    For time to time; we do call customers based on special request; but that is not the same as adding a new layer of cost that everyone would have to pay.

    That said - we are very clear or try to be on our prices. Some sites do run one price today; another tomorrow; and special discount on tuesday; and secert code good only from the 10th to the 14th; etc -- I hate that -- I do not like it when products or services are sold at different prices to the same customers

    I like a one price policy -- period
    BUT sometimes we have a special price for PRE-BOOKS - where buyers pay early and wait to get the product

    In the case of Ti frames; this was made very clear -- pay $995 if comitting before the frames ever come in -- some customers waited 3 or 4 months -- and it was posted 'prices will go up after frames are received in stock' {so actually the buyers at the lower price were actually different customers who were willing to step up early}
    This is a special insentive for those that committ way in advance -- but your post shows me why I dislike even this limited special over a one price policy

    I would love to hear other thoughts on the question of 'IS IT FAIR TO OFFER A PRE_BOOK INCENTIVE' -- Shuld someone who books ahead and waits get a bit better deal?

    I sent a couple of e-mails in regards to this. The price was posted for several days prior to my order and the day I ordered. It was changed a day or two after I ordered, once I brought it to your (Chris's) attention. It is obvious that I am not the only one that had this happen to.
    Pre booking pricing is fine but once they are in stock it should immediately be reflected on your web site.
    And yes I do like the bike. But if you are doing the majority of your sales over the internet then you should have your act together regarding checking your pricing that you post on the internet.
    I also think you should not post here, particularly in a thread that had nothing to do with BD. Take an ad out perhaps. There is a motobacane forum where I am sure you would be welcome to post.
    My brain went from "you probably shouldn't say that" to WTF!

  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee
    Alot of that on the 29'er board.

    The only difference is the Bikes Direct guy doesn't post ride pictures to promote his business.

    Maybe because he is preceived as a "big box guy" and the others are smaller so it is ok?
    Most of what we see on these boards is product promotion. I'm all for him posting ride shots to promote his product.

    His hijack of the El Mar thread is what got to me.

    He's free to start his own thread on how great his bike may be. I think there's more info on the Motobecane than the Salsa on this particular thread.

  108. #108
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    Um . . . I hear that Salsa is working on a Titanium El Mariachi. Can you believe it? A Titanium El Mariachi from Salsa. I think we should talk about that some more.

  109. #109
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    I am "generally" ok though I think, for me anyway, that he (bikesdirect) has crossed the line of what is tolerable and now only looks like he is trying too hard, which is no longer conducive to word of mouth amongst my e-friends, i.e., enough already

    Having said that, over the past few days there have been some real toolbag manufacturers/builders I have noticed act like complete sorrority school girls with their utter jealousy of somebody doing something they cant do themselves thus, in their simple minds it cant possibly have merit. I have lost all respect i had for them.

    They have embarassed themselves to the point where I will take opportunity without pause to hurt any furthering of positive word of mouth.

    I am geniunely embarassed for them and showing true colors was a very bad idea. I guess I should not be surprised since every industry has immature “contributors” but still. I for one will continue to support people with integrity, who refrain from using a lame little consumer review forum to bash others’ ideas publicly and embarrass themselves, who are great to work with and speak to (e.g., Sherwood of Ventana, DT of Turner, Mark from Lynskey, to name a few)…all of which I am sure said tools are jealous of and spiteful accordingly. Regardless of whether or not I understand, fully appreciate, etc the marketing attestations of owners/companies I like, be it “anti-squat”, “helix”, etc., they will continue to have my patronage 100% - since for me (and many other CONSUMERS) it DOES matter if the driver of the company is a toolbag or not and since its my dollar, whether they apparently care or not, the cartoon characters on the aforementioned thread will never see the corresponding money from me.
    Last edited by FoShizzle; 12-13-2009 at 09:25 PM.

  110. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    I am "generally" ok though I think, for me anyway, the he has crossed the line of what is tolerable and now only looks like he is trying too hard, which is no longer conducive to word of mouth amongst my e-friends.

    Having said that, over the past few days there have been some real toolbag manufacturers/builders I have noticed act like complete sorrority school girls with their utter jealousy of somebody doing something they cant do themselves thus, in their simple minds it cant possibly have merit. I have lost all respect i had for them.

    They have embarassed themselves to the point where I will take opportunity without pause to hurt any furthering of positive word of mouth.

    I am geniunely embarassed for them and showing true colors was a very bad idea. I guess I should not be surprised since every industry has immature “contributors” but still. I for one will continue to support people with integrity, who refrain from using a lame little consumer review forum to bash others’ ideas publicly and embarrass themselves, who are great to work with and speak to (e.g., Sherwood of Ventana, DT of Turner, Mark from Lynskey, to name a few)…all of which I am sure those tolls are of and spiteful accordingly. Regardless of whether or not I understand, fully appreciate, etc their marketing attestations be it “anti-squat”, “helix”, etc. - since for me (and many other CONSUMERS) it DOES matter if the driver of the company is a toolbag or not and since its my dollar, whether you apparently care or not, the cartoon characters on the aforementioned thread will never see.
    Huh???
    My brain went from "you probably shouldn't say that" to WTF!

  111. #111
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    I like Ti frames and Salsa should do well with this one. Thanks, but I'll pass on bikedsirect bikes and his ridiculous self-promotion crap. If I go "budget" (term used loosely) I'll take a Lynskey and if not, I'll take a custom Moots or Steve Potts. I reserve the right to switch to a Carl Strong at the last minute, of course.

  112. #112
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    I hope it has a 27.2 seatpost.

  113. #113
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    Dear Santa can you please have your elves make me a forum junk filter so that I can actually read responses relative to the thread title rather than ones that seem more like product plugs. I have been very good this year and will leave you your favorite cookies and 1% milk.


    P.S. tell Rudolph I said hello and even in the current economic situation he too can afford a ti hardtail from BD but he should be sure to check that his shopping cart total matches the website pricing.
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    I like Ti frames and Salsa should do well with this one.
    As much as it pains me to admit, I agree with you.

    Having said that, there are shockingly (even by MTBRetard standards), complete idiots in this thread with no notion of reality, marketing, commercial considerations, etc. who think a Ti frame like this will be what they perceive to be "cheap". Pull your heads out...

    I for one think Salsa is doing the "right" thing for sure. Sure there are posers who want a Ti to say they have a Ti frame and will focus their purchase based on their sort order of what is cheapest...good luck with that approach in life

    Ti frame purchasers are less retarded than average MTBR user (not saying much though) and as such...know that you get what you pay for, they are more discerning, thus, Salsa's move to provide an appropriate Ti frame is sustainable which ultimately matters a lot from a business perspective.

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blahla
    I hope it has a 27.2 seatpost.
    Me too.
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  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    As much as it pains me to admit, I agree with you.

    Having said that, there are shockingly (even by MTBRetard standards), complete idiots in this thread with no notion of reality, marketing, commercial considerations, etc. who think a Ti frame like this will be what they perceive to be "cheap". Pull your heads out...

    I for one think Salsa is doing the "right" thing for sure. Sure there are posers who want a Ti to say they have a Ti frame and will focus their purchase based on their sort order of what is cheapest...good luck with that approach in life

    Ti frame purchasers are less retarded than average MTBR user (not saying much though) and as such...know that you get what you pay for, they are more discerning, thus, Salsa's move to provide an appropriate Ti frame is sustainable which ultimately matters a lot from a business perspective.
    Double huh??
    My brain went from "you probably shouldn't say that" to WTF!

  117. #117
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    Can we all get back the Ti El Mariachi... I'm pretty sure that's what the thread was about?

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by richwolf
    Double huh??
    sorry...in summary, while inherently there is of course nothing wrong with any Ti bike, bikesdirect, Lynskey, Moots, or otherwise, I was just noting that in the case of Salsa, I think its a good move for them to source from a US based builder is all.

    with respect to the original "huh?" thread, for now I will avoid that as I dont want to manage an e-vortex o' douchebag

  119. #119
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    Nice!

    Quote Originally Posted by knottshore
    Dear Santa can you please have your elves make me a forum junk filter so that I can actually read responses relative to the thread title rather than ones that seem more like product plugs. I have been very good this year and will leave you your favorite cookies and 1% milk.


    P.S. tell Rudolph I said hello and even in the current economic situation he too can afford a ti hardtail from BD but he should be sure to check that his shopping cart total matches the website pricing.
    Good one!

  120. #120
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    [QUOTE=FoShizzle]sorry...in summary, while inherently there is of course nothing wrong with any Ti bike, bikesdirect, Lynskey, Moots, or otherwise, I was just noting that in the case of Salsa, I think its a good move for them to source from a US based builder is all.

    with respect to the original "huh?" thread, for now I will avoid that as I dont want to manage an e-vortex o' douchebag[/QUOTE]


    HUH??
    My brain went from "you probably shouldn't say that" to WTF!

  121. #121
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    Lynskey E-Rep

    [QUOTE=richwolf]
    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    sorry...in summary, while inherently there is of course nothing wrong with any Ti bike, bikesdirect, Lynskey, Moots, or otherwise, I was just noting that in the case of Salsa, I think its a good move for them to source from a US based builder is all.

    with respect to the original "huh?" thread, for now I will avoid that as I dont want to manage an e-vortex o' douchebag[/QUOTE]


    HUH??
    Fo must have ran out of his meds. When I get done with his mom ........I will send her to pick up his perscription.

  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by richwolf
    HUH??
    He lives in an eworld we cannot comprehend. If he just spoke like normal folks, it might be more clear, but he's too wrapped up in eproselytizing to notice he lost us .

  123. #123
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    I think this thread is unofficially done. Once Fo showed up, the writing was on the wall, but now that his mom has be brought in to it . . . Fo's mom is the fat lady that's signaling the end of this thread.

  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stahr_Nut
    You know, looking at this bike in the photo again with that bend in the downtube/headtube junction, if someone told me this is a new Niner TI frame I would have believed them.
    + 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Stahr_Nut
    Very sharp, clean looking frame.
    - 1

    I can't bring myself to like that downtube bend on that Ti bike. Not sure why it bugs me more than a Niner or any others with one shaped the same way, but in this Ti version, it does.

    The frame overall, though, is pretty cool. There was still something more "classic" about the steel El Mar. I get the whole "evolution" thing GT and others are talking about. But I thought the old one was pretty sweet as-is (and even sweeter if it had sliders). I know of folks in my neck of the woods who were still buying new steel El Mars last spring. And loving them.

  125. #125
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    Thank you - Pricing and ordering details

    Quote Originally Posted by chumbox
    Can we all get back the Ti El Mariachi... I'm pretty sure that's what the thread was about?
    This will likely get a whole new spew of emails, but more info on models, geometry, pricing and ordering info will be up soon on the Salsa blog. Here are some highlights.

    - $1800 MSRP
    - Some of our authorized dealers already have pre order information on their websites. Check out our dealers at www.salsacycles.com/dealers. Initial shipment will be in March 2010.
    - If you want one of these from the first production, please call an Authorized Salsa dealer now and place your order. If you can't find one, please call 1 877 MOTO ACE and someone from Salsa willl help you find a dealer. Our first mini production order is due from dealers next Monday, December 21st. If you miss this one have no fear because we will be producing more in the very near future.
    - Graphics - Industrial mill finish with etched graphics.
    - Proven Salsa 29er Geometry
    - Dealer support and warranty

    We know we won't make all happy, but it is clear that some folks get what and why we are doing what we are doing.

    Thanks folks.

    Jason
    Salsa Crew
    Adventure by Bike

    Check out our blog!

  126. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by chumbox
    Can we all get back the Ti El Mariachi... I'm pretty sure that's what the thread was about?

    Well, I have bought both a Salsa from my LBS and bikes from BD. If I want a cheep bike and I want it now I buy BD. For loyalty, I buy from my local guy.

    For 2009-------

    1- Cheep fixie from BD. 299.00. I couldnt go wrong.

    My local guy-----
    1- new Surly X-Check
    1- X-check frame for a friend.
    1- 1X1 frame for me.
    Salsa El Mariachi.
    Tons of stuff.

    For 2010-----

    Ti El Mariachi from my local guy. Why? Because its killer and because I can.

    We now return you to your normally scheduled brodcast. Salsa Ti.

    Mike, if you want to plug the Moto start a new thread like everyone else.
    MUD


    My weiner is 10.5".....Oh wait...I'm holding this ruler backward.

  127. #127
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    I want one now, but alas I cannot afford one now. When the time comes that I can pick up a Ti frame, this one will definately get a look. And If Salsa has rolled out a SS version by then, then it might be the only Ti frame I look at.

  128. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by A from Il
    Well, I have bought both a Salsa from my LBS and bikes from BD. If I want a cheep bike and I want it now I buy BD. For loyalty, I buy from my local guy.

    For 2009-------

    1- Cheep fixie from BD. 299.00. I couldnt go wrong.

    My local guy-----
    1- new Surly X-Check
    1- X-check frame for a friend.
    1- 1X1 frame for me.
    Salsa El Mariachi.
    Tons of stuff.

    For 2010-----

    Ti El Mariachi from my local guy. Why? Because its killer and because I can.

    We now return you to your normally scheduled brodcast. Salsa Ti.

    Mike, if you want to plug the Moto start a new thread like everyone else.
    Thanks for your purchase

    I generally try not to start threads at all. But I do search the forums for threads that mention us and sometimes chime in. Not - I would have never even seen this thread excpet that someone mentioned bikesdirect in the thread -- thus I started commenting.

    Thousands of threads I never read or see; generally if bikesdirect or Motobecane is not mentioned - I do not see the thread at all

    But I admit - if I had time - I would start reading all threads on Ti bikes - this is an area of intense interest to me.

  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hairllama
    You and everybody else. Folks can say that they don't care about this bike, but the counter on thread reads shows otherwise.
    Hey man, I'm just here out of curiosity. Salsa frames are way too expensive in these parts, and I can't say they float my boat. (Maybe if they made the Dos in steel!)

    I actually thought the frame looked like a Performance Access bike at first.

    I'm sure it'll be a pretty sweet ride.

    Why do people go on about welds so much? Is the point to ride your bike or look at it?

  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    Next up is a Lynskey Turner collaborative effort that will involve a DW-Turner designed w/ Lynskey Ti Helix-tubed construction and of course custom PUSH rockers
    Don't forget tapered head tube, carbon stays, and magnesium somewhere.

    The PUSH'd rockers was a good touch.

    Ps: and then clear coat/anodize everything purple!

  131. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salsa Cycles
    This will likely get a whole new spew of emails, but more info on models, geometry, pricing and ordering info will be up soon on the Salsa blog. Here are some highlights.

    - $1800 MSRP
    - Some of our authorized dealers already have pre order information on their websites. Check out our dealers at www.salsacycles.com/dealers. Initial shipment will be in March 2010.
    - If you want one of these from the first production, please call an Authorized Salsa dealer now and place your order. If you can't find one, please call 1 877 MOTO ACE and someone from Salsa willl help you find a dealer. Our first mini production order is due from dealers next Monday, December 21st. If you miss this one have no fear because we will be producing more in the very near future.
    - Graphics - Industrial mill finish with etched graphics.
    - Proven Salsa 29er Geometry
    - Dealer support and warranty

    We know we won't make all happy, but it is clear that some folks get what and why we are doing what we are doing.

    Thanks folks.

    Jason
    Salsa Crew
    All sounds good to me!

  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by chumbox
    All sounds good to me!
    agreed...I think that is spot on and appropriate!

  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbotron
    .......................

    Why do people go on about welds so much? Is the point to ride your bike or look at it?
    Way back when steel frames were the norm welds were discussed and poured over with great interest. Weld quality was somewhat determined by how much care and precision a welder laid down his beads with. Stack-o-dimes and such.

    Robotic aluminum welds somewhat diluted that and then when steel frames became scarce on shop floors the talk of a frames tubing and welds went away to a large extent.

    One of the places that never really went away was with titanium.

    It isn't something everyone cares about, but some folks still do.
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  134. #134
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    welds







    important, and somebody that takes time to be good at them will also worry about alignment, metal quality and.... strength
    wherever you go, there you are

  135. #135
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    Well at least it ha a replaceable derailleur hanger
    Why are there so many threads about cheap ass bikes?

  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blahla
    I hope it has a 27.2 seatpost.
    Yes, it does.

    Tim, Salsa Cycles
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  137. #137
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    Brilliant!
    Disclaimer. I now sell bicycles and bicycle tyres.

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  138. #138
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    I'm asking and you are arguing

    goof point but if you wear a hat no one will know
    Why are there so many threads about cheap ass bikes?

  139. #139
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    Salsa says its comming in Industrial mill.

    I think the bead blast logo`s will look pretty good on that finish. I`m sold.
    Disclaimer. I now sell bicycles and bicycle tyres.

    instacrap ----> http://instagram.com/manx71/

  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by fux
    Salsa says its comming in Industrial mill.

    I think the bead blast logo`s will look pretty good on that finish. I`m sold.
    nice...industrial mill is rad

  141. #141
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    uh moderator-- can we get back on topic here... anybody got a problem with bikes direct, a forum labeled ti-salsa mariachi is probably not the place..

    Thx

    jv.

  142. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    nice...industrial mill is rad

    Got to see the bike in person Monday night that is photo'd on the salsa blog, The graphics are actually a chemically etched process - not bead blasting. Very permanent and very nice looking. Decals on Ti never seem to be a permanent combination. Subtle enough that you can allow your choice of anodized components create the color splash. I've never heard of this sort of etched decal (not lazer etched) process before, very unique.

  143. #143
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    +1 thanks MD

  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by racerdave
    + 1



    - 1

    I can't bring myself to like that downtube bend on that Ti bike. Not sure why it bugs me more than a Niner or any others with one shaped the same way, but in this Ti version, it does.

    The frame overall, though, is pretty cool. There was still something more "classic" about the steel El Mar. I get the whole "evolution" thing GT and others are talking about. But I thought the old one was pretty sweet as-is (and even sweeter if it had sliders). I know of folks in my neck of the woods who were still buying new steel El Mars last spring. And loving them.
    I sure love both of my steel El Mariachis... and neither of them are going anywhere. But that said, I'm very eagerly anticipating the arrival of my new titanium El Mariachi. It's going to be a very nice compliment to those bikes. :-)
    I like bikes

  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    You know, I find these sort of statements head scratchers. #1- A bicycle company proposes another double diamond framed 29"er hardtail made of titanium and it is criticised for being "another choice"? Here in the forums where I see "more choices are good' written all the time? Like titanium is some sort of "whatever" material. (You guys must really roll eyes at any aluminum 29"er frames.)

    That sort of comment is just weird.

    #2- Ahh.........the steel El Mariachi caught your imagination. So take that same heritage and make it in titanium and suddenly it isn't worth doing? It isn't taking the classic El Mar to the next level?

    Again- bizarre thinking.

    Give me some alternatives to Lynskey that would be "better", or "more unique". How about telling us what would be "more revolutionary"?

    As far as the pricing comments go, it is becoming quite plain to me that a large group of mountain bikers are looking at titanium in a generic sense. It is very apparent when talking the BikesDirect frame. Somehow frame details, tubing choices, and construction techniques are not part of the conversation anymore. Which is understandable to a degree. Most folks either don't see those things, or can not see those things. Salsa will have its work cut out trying to market those things as something worth more than what "cheaper" alternatives have to offer.

    I'll say it here: You get what you pay for. Titanium is no different. If Salsa does something unique in the details, and it can be communicated effectively in terms of trail performance, than that will be how its value should be judged. If they do not, they should fail. If you're buying purely on price, don't even consider it. Get a BikesDirect, Carver, or On One frame. Have fun.
    Amen, brother... Amen. You can go with the mail order mentality, or you can go with quality. In many ways, it's the same as it ever was... It's just evolved to a new level of cool. It's all good, because we're all playing with really neat toys. I'm a very happy camper at least. Some people may choose to complain about this or that, but I'll just choose to hop on my bike and get out for a ride. That puts a smile on my face every time...

    Merry Christmas... or whatever variant you celebrate!

    Cheers,
    MG
    I like bikes

  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stahr_Nut
    You know, looking at this bike in the photo again with that bend in the downtube/headtube junction, if someone told me this is a new Niner TI frame I would have believed them.

    Very sharp, clean looking frame.
    is it me or does this frame look a lot like the motobecane frame? Sorry if it's already been said. It looks awesome (just like m'becane) but it has that brace on the right rear near the drop out just like m'becane frame. Does anyone have a geometery comparison?

  147. #147
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    Where's the matching Ti layback post...? Seems only natural. Wouldn't want to adorn a Salsa/Lynskey with a Moots/Ericksen/Black Sheep post now!
    Professional Amateur

  148. #148
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    Excuse my ignorance, but isn't Salsa just a name, ever since Ross Shafer long left it, and has no control, or input over the production they (QBP) put out? Salsa never outsourced (with exception to some small production, and even then to very well known producers). The reward for buying a Salsa bike was that it was built by original crew, on the ideas of Ross, with him being involved. So if the QBP builds their Ti frame with Lynskey, why not buy a Linskey? Unless they are both LLCs, and in a few years they will void your "life warranty", just as they did it with Merlin.

    WHERE WAS MY BIKE MADE?
    http://allanti.com/articles/where-wa...made-pg328.htm
    Its probably gotten much worse since.

  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbkot
    Excuse my ignorance, but isn't Salsa just a name, ever since Ross Shafer long left it, and has no control, or input over the production they (QBP) put out? Salsa never outsourced (with exception to some small production, and even then to very well known producers). The reward for buying a Salsa bike was that it was built by original crew, on the ideas of Ross, with him being involved. So if the QBP builds their Ti frame with Lynskey, why not buy a Linskey? Unless they are both LLCs, and in a few years they will void your "life warranty", just as they did it with Merlin.

    WHERE WAS MY BIKE MADE?
    http://allanti.com/articles/where-wa...made-pg328.htm
    Its probably gotten much worse since.
    Well, using your logic, what products that are in your home are "just a name"?

    That line is lame and is old hat. It's as if the products we buy as cyclists are made by non-human entities if they are not made by U.S. citizens, in small batches, by folks who somehow endowed with more "soul" than folks from overseas.

    Whatever.

    Lynskey makes this bike to a spec that they do not make any of their own bicycle frames to. Sure, you could custom order a Lynskey like this, if you knew what all the details of the spec were. But that begs the question: Why not just buy the Salsa branded one?

    I get it if you don't like the frame. I get it if titanium isn't your thing, it's too expensive, or you don't like how this one looks. But to not buy the bike based on the fact that Ross isn't involved, (hasn't been for over 10 years ya know), and that somehow it doesn't have any differences from a Ridgeline, or that it has no credence because there is no way the folks that work at Salsa now could possibly have better ideas is just plain goofy.

    That's my take.
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  150. #150
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    I ordered one because i`m not keen on sliders but dont like the tyre clearence on the non-slider lynskey frames.

    Go check out the prices of a lynskey custom. There isnt much on the marked that suits my prefrance as an off the shelf frame.

    An easy choice for me.
    Disclaimer. I now sell bicycles and bicycle tyres.

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  151. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Well, using your logic, what products that are in your home are "just a name"?

    That line is lame and is old hat. It's as if the products we buy as cyclists are made by non-human entities if they are not made by U.S. citizens, in small batches, by folks who somehow endowed with more "soul" than folks from overseas.

    Whatever.

    Lynskey makes this bike to a spec that they do not make any of their own bicycle frames to. Sure, you could custom order a Lynskey like this, if you knew what all the details of the spec were. But that begs the question: Why not just buy the Salsa branded one?

    I get it if you don't like the frame. I get it if titanium isn't your thing, it's too expensive, or you don't like how this one looks. But to not buy the bike based on the fact that Ross isn't involved, (hasn't been for over 10 years ya know), and that somehow it doesn't have any differences from a Ridgeline, or that it has no credence because there is no way the folks that work at Salsa now could possibly have better ideas is just plain goofy.

    That's my take.
    Well GT, you red that all wrong, i did not mean any offense to the Salsa fans, nor the Lynskey followers, and definitely not to the people making bike frames overseas....
    We make Ti unicycles and Ti trial frames (overseas) and i think very highly of our products. Most of the customers are from US, Canada, and EU. And our welds are very nice. But i don't want to follow the direction of the Bikesdirect, and take this thread off topic. All i meant was that the bike is not that radically different than other Ti bikes on the market, and since there was a big discussion on the price, it is obviously big chunk of the price is in the name. Now to answer your statement on the Ti. Oh i like Ti, and i think there are great frames that can be and are made out of Ti. Actually I have a 93 Merlin mountain, and i still think it is a hell of a beautiful frame, and it rides very nice as well. In a month or so, i will be taking a delivery of another Ti bike, a Jones. So you see, i do like Ti.

  152. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbkot
    Well GT, you red that all wrong, i did not mean any offense to the Salsa fans, nor the Lynskey followers, and definitely not to the people making bike frames overseas....
    We make Ti unicycles and Ti trial frames (overseas) and i think very highly of our products. Most of the customers are from US, Canada, and EU. And our welds are very nice. But i don't want to follow the direction of the Bikesdirect, and take this thread off topic. All i meant was that the bike is not that radically different than other Ti bikes on the market, and since there was a big discussion on the price, it is obviously big chunk of the price is in the name. Now to answer your statement on the Ti. Oh i like Ti, and i think there are great frames that can be and are made out of Ti. Actually I have a 93 Merlin mountain, and i still think it is a hell of a beautiful frame, and it rides very nice as well. In a month or so, i will be taking a delivery of another Ti bike, a Jones. So you see, i do like Ti.
    Funny, but your original post reads completely different to this.
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  153. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salsa Cycles
    Yes, it does.

    Tim, Salsa Cycles
    Re: the 27.2mm seatpost, something doesn't add up.

    This is from your website:

    http://salsacycles.com/bikes/el_mariachi_ti/ ==> "Highlights" tab

    •Seatpost diameter: 27.2mm
    •Seatpost clamp: 35.0mm

    So Lynskey are providing a special (butted?) seat tube with 3.9mm walls?

  154. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by hifiandmtb
    Re: the 27.2mm seatpost, something doesn't add up.

    This is from your website:

    http://salsacycles.com/bikes/el_mariachi_ti/ ==> "Highlights" tab

    •Seatpost diameter: 27.2mm
    •Seatpost clamp: 35.0mm

    So Lynskey are providing a special (butted?) seat tube with 3.9mm walls?
    They are using a pressed in aluminum insert to reduce the size of seatpost needed.
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  155. #155
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    I am so damn sick of seeing bikesdirect come in to every damn thread and blah blah blah about himself.

    NO CLASS.

    *Ignore*

  156. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    They are using a pressed in aluminum insert to reduce the size of seatpost needed.
    You know that for sure? Why would they do that?

    I need to get one of these shims for my new Lynskey

  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by hifiandmtb
    You know that for sure? Why would they do that?

    I need to get one of these shims for my new Lynskey
    Yes, I know that for sure.

    They do it because the Ti El Mar is sold as a frame only, and most folks have 27.2mm posts.
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  158. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Yes, I know that for sure.

    They do it because the Ti El Mar is sold as a frame only, and most folks have 27.2mm posts.
    Yes, this is true. We did it for the ride quality of a 27.2 seatpost over 31.6, and because our steel El Mariachi is 27.2, so its an easy swap over of parts.

    On Ti frames, a 34.9 seat tube is needed to maintain stiffness in the frame since the Ti material is not as stiff as steel.

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  159. #159
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    That's cool. You might want to mention this under the "highlights" section on your website - if you've done it for a good reason, why not bring attention to it.

  160. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnee
    I am so damn sick of seeing bikesdirect come in to every damn thread and blah blah blah about himself.

    NO CLASS.

    *Ignore*
    AS I SAID ABOVE


    "I generally try not to start threads at all. But I do search the forums for threads that mention us and sometimes chime in. Now - I would have never even seen this thread excpet that someone mentioned bikesdirect in the thread -- thus I started commenting.

    Thousands of threads I never read or see; generally if bikesdirect or Motobecane is not mentioned - I do not see the thread at all

    But I admit - if I had time - I would start reading all threads on Ti bikes - this is an area of intense interest to me."

    I saw this "compare apples to apples. I agree with G-Ted. Bikes-direct, Carver, and Voodoo are all Chinese frames and tubesets."
    When someone comes on a posts that a Ti bike we sell is made in China - when it clearing is not; I think it is fair for me to enter that thread and correct the record.

    Plus there were some incorrect statements about the relationship between volume and cost that I thought some people would appreciate seeing corrected.


    In the future I will try to stick with correcting mis-statements: instead of adding inside industry info: as I see this can be seen in a negative light.
    Last edited by bikesdirect; 02-24-2010 at 03:03 PM.

  161. #161
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    i guess no one pay attention with BD's signature!(read it and you'll understand why)
    i'm a full time bikeacholic also an workaholic and part time alcoholic.

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    Any ETA on these frames? I read somewhere that they were shooting for March delivery, but then I saw something about summer. Anyone know if Quality is going to be stocking these frames or are they going to be preorders only?

  163. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Speaking of titanium EBB's, are there any good examples of this? I can't seem to come up with a titanium frame in my mind that uses that tensioning system. It seems most use sliders. Anybody have any examples out there?

    I had a Seven Sola with one. I nick named it creakasourus.

  164. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldtymer
    Any ETA on these frames? I read somewhere that they were shooting for March delivery, but then I saw something about summer. Anyone know if Quality is going to be stocking these frames or are they going to be preorders only?
    March 1st was the deadline to get in on a pre-order for the first batch which will deliver sometime in June. QBP will have some stock at some point that LBS' can order from. When that will be, I do not know, but that is the intention of Salsa as I understand it.

    @sparkie: Thanks for the info on the ti EBB. Doesn't sound too promising.
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  165. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by liong71er
    i guess no one pay attention with BD's signature!(read it and you'll understand why)
    Before we do....talk about misappropriation of a quote...original context of civil disobedience and non-violence to provoke and reveal injustice and oppression...to BD's context of capitalism and having a business strategy that many dislike. How did he even make it into this thread?

    A ti Mariachi would be flipping great. I would totally fork the cash over to Salsa if I had it...they've got great CS and make stuff that is just plain great. I'd probably be too reluctant to by a ti frame from a lot of other companies...

  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    March 1st was the deadline to get in on a pre-order for the first batch which will deliver sometime in June.
    Bobby emailed me saying the first pre-orderd frames are set to be shipped this month with the second delivery due in June.
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  167. #167
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    my tax returns coming april 2nd. any chance ill be able to get one around then? or preorder on then?
    Quote Originally Posted by ISuckAtRiding View Post
    The dude is like 120lbs, tops lol he can run any tires he wants without issues, i'm sure.
    :D

  168. #168
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    can't wait to see someones build, c'mon!

  169. #169
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    Titskey/Lynskus

    New Titus Fireline out of Lynskey factory.
    Hydroformed 3al/2.5v titanium.

    Similarities with the Salsa?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Ti El Mariachi !!-fireline29_34front-%5B1024x768%5D.jpg  

    Ti El Mariachi !!-fireline29_34back-%5B1024x768%5D.jpg  


  170. #170
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    I would hazzard a guess that the similaraties end with the welders.

    More swoops and hyroforming going on with the Titus. I like the droput system titus has too.

    Slighty more tech on the titus frame, a nudge for classic looks goes to Salsa.

    I am betting the titus frame costs more?

    If lynskey are able to hold the first deadline, those of us who orderd the first batch of Salsa`s will hopefully be able to post some real build pictures within a 2-3 weeks?

    ... Fingers crossed!
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  171. #171
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    dropouts

    Quote Originally Posted by fux
    I would hazzard a guess that the similaraties end with the welders.

    More swoops and hyroforming going on with the Titus. I like the droput system titus has too.

    Slighty more tech on the titus frame, a nudge for classic looks goes to Salsa.

    I am betting the titus frame costs more?

    If lynskey are able to hold the first deadline, those of us who orderd the first batch of Salsa`s will hopefully be able to post some real build pictures within a 2-3 weeks?

    ... Fingers crossed!
    Titus has convertible dropouts, single or geared. 100mm front shock vs 80mm on the EM.

    Higher price tag- $2495 retail. But can be paired with the F100RLC FIT QR15 for $575 more. And the Fox is black instead of white.
    Or full build kit with that fork and Cobalts for $4690. That makes a total Titus bike a little closer to the Salsa, I would think.

    What is the advantage of a Salsa over the Ridgeline?
    Last edited by Bikerbob.com; 03-23-2010 at 08:50 AM.

  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikerbob.com
    Titus has convertible dropouts, single or geared. 100mm front shock vs 80mm on the EM.

    Higher price tag- $2495 retail. But can be paired with the F100RLC FIT QR15 for $575 more. And the Fox is black instead of white.
    Or full build kit with that fork and Cobalts for $4690. That makes a total Titus bike a little closer to the Salsa, I would think.

    What is the advantage of a Salsa over the Ridgeline?
    Considering the Titus frame retails for $700 more than the Salsa, price is definitely an advantage. Since I have not ridden either frame, I can not comment as to either frame in any other sense.

    That said, I am buying the Salsa.
    I like bikes

  173. #173
    fux
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikerbob.com
    What is the advantage of a Salsa over the Ridgeline?
    I will be transfering the f29 15mm over from my niner so price is certainly an issue.
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  174. #174
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    80 or 100mm

    Quote Originally Posted by fux
    I will be transfering the f29 15mm over from my niner so price is certainly an issue.
    Running it at 80mm?

    Wouldn't a Lynskey Ridgeline Houseblend cost less than the Salsa?
    Unless you work in a shop that deals with QBP and get an employee deal.

  175. #175
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    They are about the same price to europe, but it seems that the ridgeline wont fit as fat as a tyre in the rear.

    I`ll be running 100mm on the fox, there isn`t much difference in it if you run slightly more sag and my trails demand slacker angles. It works fine on my Sir.
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  176. #176
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    I almost went with the salsa, but ended up going with a pro29. Figured the actual builder keeps the best for themselves, and sliders over the vertical dropouts was huge. Being able to adust to a 17.1" chainstay and having the ability to convert the frame to SS down the road was a big factor. Also, the geometry of the pro29 being closer to the niner that I've been riding/racing was a big factor.

    That said I think the salsa is a sweet frame and the finish is very nice. I also like the fireline, but to me it seems like a slightly modified ridgeline (judging by the tubes) with a nice finish for about $1k more. Ti is a great material, it's good to see more companies offering it as an option.

  177. #177
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    I would still go with Salsa with 80mm fork. Should be enough travel for rigid steel fork rider

  178. #178
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    Is there any value in Thai Ti? Just asking.. I don't even know if it exists, but I want some... I want to be on a ride and tell someone that my bike is made from Thai Ti...

  179. #179
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    is that Thai as Thailand Ti welder

  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikerbob.com
    Running it at 80mm?

    Wouldn't a Lynskey Ridgeline Houseblend cost less than the Salsa?
    Unless you work in a shop that deals with QBP and get an employee deal.
    yes,
    thats my plan.
    Quote Originally Posted by wannabeRacer
    I would still go with Salsa with 80mm fork. Should be enough travel for rigid steel fork rider
    sounds like me
    Quote Originally Posted by ISuckAtRiding View Post
    The dude is like 120lbs, tops lol he can run any tires he wants without issues, i'm sure.
    :D

  181. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by wannabeRacer
    is that Thai as Thailand Ti welder
    Ty the Thai Ti welder...yep Again, I want Thai ti, Cambodian welds and Mexican Paint.

  182. #182
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    How long has Titus been outsourcing its Ti fab? Sad, didn't they used to make all their frames in Az? Do they make anything in-house any longer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikerbob.com
    New Titus Fireline out of Lynskey factory.
    Hydroformed 3al/2.5v titanium.

    Similarities with the Salsa?

  183. #183
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    Echoes my thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdrunk
    How long has Titus been outsourcing its Ti fab? Sad, didn't they used to make all their frames in Az? Do they make anything in-house any longer?
    We agree, your post echoes my thoughts. I am no fan of "badge" engineering - there is something, possibly intangible, lost when a manufacturer becomes just a marketer. Firelines were always on my short list of bikes I'd wanted.

  184. #184
    Ti is addictive
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdrunk
    How long has Titus been outsourcing its Ti fab? Sad, didn't they used to make all their frames in Az? Do they make anything in-house any longer?

    Custom and exogrid is still inhouse........but off the shelf geo stuff is Lynskey this year which is way better then last years ABG stuff IMO.
    "Can I put a Totem on a FTM?".....Originally Posted by All Mountain

  185. #185
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    Frame photos

    (moved to end of discussion)

  186. #186
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    For what it's worth

    The first batch has begun to show up at dealers.

    Here are some first glance photo's of mine. We've also started a build discussion in the Salsa room.

    Click the link for more.
    <table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/O7vC5Dw_T9T9_K9iaMQf1A?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh3.ggpht.com/_pXYWICYvyC0/S7v8gtIBp_I/AAAAAAAAF5k/kc-bCotdUWE/s800/IMG_0561.JPG" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/slinville/TiElMar?feat=embedwebsite">Ti el mar</a></td></tr></table>

    <table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/nHlHyRVS1iX5l41_R8DJIw?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh4.ggpht.com/_pXYWICYvyC0/S7v8g14tuvI/AAAAAAAAF5o/eeYdJga_63Y/s800/IMG_0562.JPG" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/slinville/TiElMar?feat=embedwebsite">Ti el mar</a></td></tr></table>

    <table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/EhmmJ4fYn0nJHUILueuAOg?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh3.ggpht.com/_pXYWICYvyC0/S7v8jAVnb7I/AAAAAAAAF50/OFUok-TTHI4/s800/IMG_0568.JPG" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/slinville/TiElMar?feat=embedwebsite">Ti el mar</a></td></tr></table>

    <table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/EhmmJ4fYn0nJHUILueuAOg?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh3.ggpht.com/_pXYWICYvyC0/S7v8jAVnb7I/AAAAAAAAF50/OFUok-TTHI4/s800/IMG_0568.JPG" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/slinville/TiElMar?feat=embedwebsite">Ti el mar</a></td></tr></table>

  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by fux
    I`m chuffed to bits.

    I hate sliders.
    As do I after getting PMW sliders on my steel IF.

  188. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raymo853
    As do I after getting PMW sliders on my steel IF.
    PMW? Don't you mean GroundUp Designs sliders?

  189. #189
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    Any one have a ride report on the EM Ti? It SEEMS like just what I'm looking for, but I am wanting to hear from those that have them.

    I'm planning it as a Endurance racer and all around "bike of one" for an aging cross country racer. Currently swapping between a 4" travel carbon FS 26er and a Niner MCR (steel) 29er. It would be great if I could combine those two and go down to one bike.

    The geometry looks perfect for my needs. Any thoughts from the owners on ride quality? Lateral stiffness vs. vertical compliance? Thanks.

  190. #190
    fux
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    It rides nice.

    <object width="853" height="505"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/1Jsz2bNE654&hl=nb_NO&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0 x54abd6"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/1Jsz2bNE654&hl=nb_NO&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0 x54abd6" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="853" height="505"></embed></object>

    I answerd your question on the salsa forum. btw.
    Disclaimer. I now sell bicycles and bicycle tyres.

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  191. #191
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    nice video!

    sweet bike!

  192. #192
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    Where is the Salsa Ti El Mariachi made?

    So I read through the thread (ok I skimmed it). Is the frame made in the USA by Lynskey. I could not find that detail.. Not that it matters since I already have on in my hands and can't wait to build it up. I am curious though.

  193. #193
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    Yes, Salsa designed it and the folks at Lynskey manufacture the design to Salsa's specifications here in their U.S. titanium fabrication factory.

  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATXSS
    Yes, Salsa designed it and the folks at Lynskey manufacture the design to Salsa's specifications here in their U.S. titanium fabrication factory.
    That makes a great frame purchase that much sweeter. I am looking forward to a few micro brews and some time this Saturday so I can build it up.

  195. #195
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    Fux...

    Great video! Thank you for sharing.

  196. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger Pride
    That makes a great frame purchase that much sweeter. I am looking forward to a few micro brews and some time this Saturday so I can build it up.
    Yessir. You definitely need to grab some Ranger IPA's from New Belgium and keep up the Ti El Mar building tradition.

  197. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by fux
    It rides nice.

    <object width="853" height="505"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/1Jsz2bNE654&hl=nb_NO&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0 x54abd6"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/1Jsz2bNE654&hl=nb_NO&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0 x54abd6" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="853" height="505"></embed></object>

    I answerd your question on the salsa forum. btw.

    Hay there. Nice video! What size frame is that and how tall are you?

  198. #198
    fux
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    I`m 5`7 and the frame is a small.
    Disclaimer. I now sell bicycles and bicycle tyres.

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  199. #199
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    After reading through this. my thoughts are pretty simple. Being a Salsa owner and looking for a Ti 29'er Of course I came across Lynskey and the others that Lynskey makes (On one Titus..etc) Owning a Selma I know the Geo of the El M will work for me. The price is a bit more than a standard Ridgeline BUT in the same finish the prices are close enough to call it a wash. Its really makes me wonder WHY the all Ti Fireline is so $$$ Too me Salsa has hit the target audience they were shooting for. Those who like thier brand/bikes and want to stick with something they know works, just using a different material. I just hope I can save up enough pennies to buy one soon.

  200. #200
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    Good job! friday

    Thanks for all the good info on this thread. Mine should be built by the weekend. It's my first salsa, and first titanium bike. It will be replacing an aluminum 29'er and a carbon 26" fs. In 4 weeks I'll be doing a 17 hour ride on her so I hope she's as smooth as I hear!

    I'm going to try my reba at 100mm for grins.
    Free will is an illusion, people will always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

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