tallboy vs mach 429- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    tallboy vs mach 429

    was wondering how similar these bikes are,i have a 429 but its heavy,frame is 7lbs. any one have any comparisons. will be used for am and some xc raceing.
    scs

  2. #2
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    You may want to do a forum search, this comparison has almost been beaten to death..and they one up it to Epic vs Tallboy vs 429.
    http://forums.mtbr.com/search.php?searchid=10175555
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  3. #3
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    I test rode both the Tallboy and 429 on back-to-back weekends, same trails, each for 3 hours. I took the time to setup the suspension, and seat/handlebar/pedal relationship so each bike would feel as best as possible to me. Trails were very steep up/down, ledgy, rocky, and rooty; some slow speed technical tight sections; some corners to carve; some high-speed downhills over a loose rocky/ledgy baby-head surface; some switchbacks; a really good sample. The outcome was a bit of a surprise to me, given some of the MTBR reviews on both bikes I had read previously.

    The first question I needed answering was whether I liked VPP2 any better than the VPP1 system I had ridden on a previous bike for about 2 years. I discovered that I still do not prefer the pedal-feedback that is still apparent to me in VPP2 during ledgy stair-step climbing. That pedal-feedback aspect alone was a deal breaker for me regarding the Tallboy. However, I was also surprised that the Tallboy did not perform as well for me as the 429 on the higher-speed downhill section I rode, where I felt more in-control on the 429 launching off of small ledges into loose baby-heads.

    The 429 had the characteristics I was looking for. Coming from ICT, 4x4, FSR, and VPP designs in either my current stable or in recent past, I was looking for specific attributes: snappy pedaling without pedal feedback, anti-squat (for climbing and G-outs), class-leading frame stiffness, and reasonably built to ~27-28lbs. I had a pretty good idea that the 429 would be a really fast bike when hammering—it is. What surprised me was the slow speed technical ability of the 429; I think this is due to the lack of pedal feedback when pedaling though chunky terrain and the very stiff frame that continues to hold an excellent line in off-camber sections. I also find it easy to loft the front wheel when needed to change lines, get up-and-over ledges, etc.

    After the 3 hour test ride that Saturday, I rode the 429 again the next day for another 3 hours in another technical riding location. I decided that for me and my local terrain, the 429 was clearly the better choice. I picked one up about 2 months ago, and couldn’t be happier with it.

    Have fun with your decision!

  4. #4
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    Not another heavy 429 comparison! I won't even go there.

  5. #5
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    i think the weight of 7lbs includes the bottom bracket and front derailleur. mine fully built with XX 10 speed, and being a medium, weights in at 26.3lbs. Been racing it for 3 years now and love it!

  6. #6
    craigsj
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbyyou
    i think the weight of 7lbs includes the bottom bracket and front derailleur. mine fully built with XX 10 speed, and being a medium, weights in at 26.3lbs. Been racing it for 3 years now and love it!
    The 7 pound number would not include those extra parts. Do a little searching, most weight reports are in the 7.5 pound range.

  7. #7
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    I have been riding the Tallboy for about a month, I do log pretty good miles 400-450/mo. on technical singletrack. I am coming from the Blur carbon, and had other brands before that: Epic, K2 Razorback, Giant NRS, and a Blur Classic, and I still prefer the VPP over any other suspension. I have not noticed any pedal feedback.

    I really don't have anything bad to say, and everything good is just an echo on everyone else that loves the bike's opinion. I actually have a friend that religiously rode HT SS and nothing else walk into a shop based on my recommendation, and walked out with a Tallboy, and there was a 429 there in his size there that he test rode in the same day. I think it is a matter of preference, but I am starting to see a lot more Tallboys than I am 429s, and the 429 has a couple more years in production.

    I think Pivot makes an excellent bike, but I don't feel that it is as plush as the Tallboy, and the carbon dampening is excellent. Both suspension designs are the best in the business so really you can't go wrong with either, but if you are looking for a race bike. I feel that just the benefits of the carbon (weight, dampening) puts it a bit higher than the 429. W/O pedals and cages, my Tallboy weighs 23.6lb (basically how all bikes are weighed from factory) and just under 25 with. I don't have the lightest build, and the only thing XX on my bike is the cassette. Everything else is X9, XO, 20mm T/A, 1800g wheels and 600g tires. I could go considerably lighter going to XX, lighter wheels, and tires, and pedals.
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  8. #8
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    I luv the pivot but its a pig, the tb is at least 2.lbs lighter, its much easier to build to racebike.
    scs

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    The 7 pound number would not include those extra parts. Do a little searching, most weight reports are in the 7.5 pound range.
    Please don't take this personally, it is more of a general rant....

    Is the Tall Boy lighter,,,, yes but all the guestiments of weight is tiresome.

    2009 Med Pivot 429 with stock DK seat clamp, internal BB and stock Ritchey ZS Headset 7lbs 7 oz, both an XTR External bb and ZS headset are ~3.5 oz putting the actual frame weight at pretty darn close to 7 pounds (7lbs 7 oz minus (3.5oz +3.5oz) = 7 lbs).

    The differences are the Pivot includes only the BB bearings not the cups and center tube section, instead it has a wider BB as part of the frame... and if you want to get really silly (which at this point it is already there) then deduct .00000000000000793444 (this number is exact and accounts for the stock chrome vanadium allen bolts that attach it.....) ounces for the lack of a clamp or E type bracket since the FD mounts directly to the frame-

    Both bikes are great, two of the very best designs that require very little if any pro pedal. For me the stoutness and feel of the DW are game winners- but I would not throw the TB out of bed for eating crackers- it really depends what your looking for. As an owner of the pivot I am biased without question, but after a Blur XC and BLT I do have a bit of time on VPP and would buy it again, I just personally prefer the pedal feel from the DW.
    Last edited by knottshore; 02-05-2011 at 10:26 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbyyou
    i think the weight of 7lbs includes the bottom bracket and front derailleur. mine fully built with XX 10 speed, and being a medium, weights in at 26.3lbs. Been racing it for 3 years now and love it!
    I wish I had XX...but anyway I have X9 shifters derl XTR (old) brakes, heavy Mavic 719s heavy crank and just did one front wheel Ghetto tubless and sit at 26.7lbs

  11. #11
    craigsj
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    Quote Originally Posted by knottshore
    Please don't take this personally, it is more of a general rant....

    Is the Tall Boy lighter,,,, yes but all the guestiments of weight is tiresome.
    The only "guestimate" was a Pivot one...and it was wrong. I notice you didn't respond to that. Instead you responded to me with a rant that confirmed what I, and the OP, said. Curious.

    It is inevitable that anytime a 429 is mentioned someone will join in to misrepresent its weight. Why are Pivot owners so insecure?

    It's fair to say the difference in weight between these two frames is close to 2 pounds for unpainted versions. Since the OP complained of 429 weight and said XC racing was an intended use it's worth pointing out.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    The only "guestimate" was a Pivot one...and it was wrong. I notice you didn't respond to that. Instead you responded to me with a rant that confirmed what I, and the OP, said. Curious.

    It is inevitable that anytime a 429 is mentioned someone will join in to misrepresent its weight. Why are Pivot owners so insecure?

    It's fair to say the difference in weight between these two frames is close to 2 pounds for unpainted versions. Since the OP complained of 429 weight and said XC racing was an intended use it's worth pointing out.
    I guess you did take it personally, forgive me I misread your response, it seems we are on the same page with a ~7lb bare frame weight, but I am not sure where or how I misrepresented the 429's weight in my post? Please enlighten me on. I do agree as I said in my post that with out question the TB is lighter and on a weight only perspective it may be a better XC race pick but don't forget the op also plans on "am" riding as well-
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  13. #13
    craigsj
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    Quote Originally Posted by knottshore
    ...but I am not sure where or how I misrepresented the 429's weight in my post
    Youi didn't, mtbbyyou did. Your information is solid as far as I know. It's the constant confusion over the extra parts that's annoying. Why Pivot owners can't simply weigh their frames I'll never know but it's easy to sort out the true weight once you know what's being included.

    Whatever a 100mm travel AM bike is, there's no reason to believe the Tallboy isn't up to it.

  14. #14
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    ok, you guys are right! I guess I should go out and get 3 different scales to make sure my bike DOES weigh 26lbs! all I know is this thing took me to two championships, and with my 225lbs fat ass beating the crap out of it, i think its a great bike! Whatever!

  15. #15
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    If a rider is simply looking to build up the lightest 29er FS, the Pivot probably isn't the best option. WIth that said, I simply love my 429. For those of us who are bigger kids (I'm 6'3", 220ish), it is a great frame to build a durable, stiff, great riding frame.

    Would I love if the frame weighed 2 less pounds? Yah, but only if i didn't lose any of the suspension action and stiffness. All I know is that those 2 extra pounds aren't the reason I can't finish a climb. Its a tired cliche, but the bike never rides "heavy" to me--and feels like a lighter bike on the trails, and doesn't feel like a pig after a long day of riding. All I know is that the frame weight is the last thing I'm worrying about as I prep for doing the BC Bike Race for the first time this coming summer.

    I've never bothered to tear down my frame bare and weigh it, in part because I'd rather be riding, and my frame is an 09 I believe--different TT lengths than current models. But last time I weighed, it was just under 30 pounds-- with Ardent 2.4s, a remote seat post, and Fox 15mm fork at 120mm.

    I think the bottom line is that you really can't lose if you're looking at either bike. Ride both if you can, and pick the one that fits you better.

  16. #16
    craigsj
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    Quote Originally Posted by padrefan1982
    For those of us who are bigger kids (I'm 6'3", 220ish), it is a great frame to build a durable, stiff, great riding frame.
    So is the Tallboy.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by padrefan1982
    If a rider is simply looking to build up the lightest 29er FS, the Pivot probably isn't the best option. WIth that said, I simply love my 429. For those of us who are bigger kids (I'm 6'3", 220ish), it is a great frame to build a durable, stiff, great riding frame.

    Would I love if the frame weighed 2 less pounds? Yah, but only if i didn't lose any of the suspension action and stiffness. All I know is that those 2 extra pounds aren't the reason I can't finish a climb. Its a tired cliche, but the bike never rides "heavy" to me--and feels like a lighter bike on the trails, and doesn't feel like a pig after a long day of riding. All I know is that the frame weight is the last thing I'm worrying about as I prep for doing the BC Bike Race for the first time this coming summer.

    I've never bothered to tear down my frame bare and weigh it, in part because I'd rather be riding, and my frame is an 09 I believe--different TT lengths than current models. But last time I weighed, it was just under 30 pounds-- with Ardent 2.4s, a remote seat post, and Fox 15mm fork at 120mm.

    I think the bottom line is that you really can't lose if you're looking at either bike. Ride both if you can, and pick the one that fits you better.
    As always, the best advice. And also correct in that they are both great bikes.

    You should also consider how much racing vs regular riding you'll be doing. If it's primarily racing time, then the TB may be a better option simply for the lighter weight. If it's mostly recreational riding (of any flavor!), then the TB's paper advantage diminishes and it comes down to what feels like the better bike to you.

    I tested the TB (parking lot only), and liked the feel of the bike. For me, however, I wasn't ready to make the CF leap on a MTB, so didn't push for a trail ride. I'm a big guy and not all that graceful. I did a lot of reading on the strength of CF and mentally realize it's probably not anything to worry about... but I couldn't make the gut feeling jump to CF for a bike that I abuse.

    That may or may not be a consideration for you.

    I love the feel of the Pivot. It tracks like no other FS bike I've ever ridden! Nothing seems to throw it off its line and it's smooth and comfortable going over all kinds of obstacles. I'd say it's as plush as any 4" bike can be when its set up correctly; it's not going to match a 5" or 6" bike, of course, but I could ride this thing forever and not feel beat up!

  18. #18
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    I have to say that I racked my brain about this for a while.
    The 429 is a great bike for sure. I have never ridden it, but I do have a DW Sultan so I have experience with the suspension. I can really appreciate the 429's design and it does look stiff as has been substantiated. I was looking for a stiff, light, 4" travel 29er race machine that of course would be fun to ride. I am sure that I could get a good fit on just about any of the largest model short travel FS 29ers and that any of them would be fun to ride.
    The DW does not have much compression damping because it doesn't need it since it uses anti-squat instead. My Sultan does not do well out if the saddle becuase of this....not good for racing IMO when a bike squishes so much out of the saddle. I know that standing isn't really efficient, but as I get older it seems to be a great stradegy to mix it up and I am faster overall when I stand more often. The TB has a shorther CS which is better for standing because of traction. Anyone who stands a lot knows a shorter CS gives better traction when standing. I am not saying that the 429 does bob a bunch when standing. One can always play with suspension damping and change this, but then it wouldn't be true to its design purpose which includes having low compression damping. If its comp. damping was higher, it would be too harsh and people wouldn't be raving about its suspension design. Now, all of this doesn't really matter if you are not a hammer head like myself, but this was important and made the decision for me.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogiprophet
    I have to say that I racked my brain about this for a while.
    The 429 is a great bike for sure. I have never ridden it, but I do have a DW Sultan so I have experience with the suspension. I can really appreciate the 429's design and it does look stiff as has been substantiated. I was looking for a stiff, light, 4" travel 29er race machine that of course would be fun to ride. I am sure that I could get a good fit on just about any of the largest model short travel FS 29ers and that any of them would be fun to ride.
    The DW does not have much compression damping because it doesn't need it since it uses anti-squat instead. My Sultan does not do well out if the saddle becuase of this....not good for racing IMO when a bike squishes so much out of the saddle. I know that standing isn't really efficient, but as I get older it seems to be a great stradegy to mix it up and I am faster overall when I stand more often. The TB has a shorther CS which is better for standing because of traction. Anyone who stands a lot knows a shorter CS gives better traction when standing. I am not saying that the 429 does bob a bunch when standing. One can always play with suspension damping and change this, but then it wouldn't be true to its design purpose which includes having low compression damping. If its comp. damping was higher, it would be too harsh and people wouldn't be raving about its suspension design. Now, all of this doesn't really matter if you are not a hammer head like myself, but this was important and made the decision for me.
    I have gone into more detail in other posts both in the 29er & Pivot Forums but one of the reasons I like the 429 so much is that I can hop off of my SS and on to it and still push a big gear out of the saddle without bobbing like crazy, in fact it is the most solid pedal platform I have been on, it requires no odd position or weighting either. I have not been on the TB or any VPP V2 which I am sure are improved but it is worlds apart from my gen 1BLT and Blur XC 26" bikes, and traction with a Crossmark or Ardent 2.25 has never been an issue and usually don't need the pro-pedal to be on with the stock fox rp-23.

    With this in mind, I think the 429 leans to the taught/pedal feel end of the suspension spectrum VS the ultra plush, which even though both the Sultan and 429 are DW most comparisons of the two usually indicate the Sultan is more plush but does not respond to out of the saddle pedaling quite as well-
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  20. #20
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    No bad choice between these two. I only have a few minutes on the 429, but rode it back-to-back with the Tallboy. I have to say- I was VERY impressed with the suspension on the 429. Very smooth, no pedal feedback, and bob is at LEAST as well controlled as on the Tallboy (any difference is in the noise). So, the biggest difference was in pedal feedback. While you can notice it in the Tallboy, there simply isn't enough there to be any kind of problem.

    Both bikes cost the same. The short chainstays on the Tallboy have some advantages, but here's what it came down to for me; the 429 was an extra 2 pounds for pretty much the same bike, and I personally think it looks boring at best, ugly at worst. The Tallboy is super-sexy and super-light. The 429 frame just looks kind of chunky, dull & garish to my eye. The Tallboy is all beautiful compound curves. Plus, I'll admit, after 8 happy years on my Blur classic I do have some brand loyalty built up. Still an excellent bike though. If the Tallboy didn't exist, I'd probably get a 429...although the RIP 9 would give me pause. It's about as heavy as the 429 but with more travel, and also has great ride and pedaling characteristics. It seems like the 429 gives you the weight of the RIP with the travel of the Tallboy. The execution of the suspension on the 429 is just top-notch though, slightly better than the Tallboy.

    My new Tallboy arrives tomorrow.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by knottsure
    With this in mind, I think the 429 leans to the taught/pedal feel end of the suspension spectrum VS the ultra plush, which even though both the Sultan and 429 are DW most comparisons of the two usually indicate the Sultan is more plush but does not respond to out of the saddle pedaling quite as well-
    That is exactly what I've found with my Sultan and 429. I think the Sultan has the advantage in traction when pedaling in or out of the saddle, but the 429 is a great pedaling bike.

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