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  1. #1
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    Suggest a Ding Resistant Rear Rim

    I have just dinged (dented) the sidewall of a DT Swiss TK7.1 rim for the second time, both having occurred under circumstances that leave me scratching my head. It's been the rear wheel that's suffered, despite thinking the front is taking the abuse. While the wheels have each managed to stay true (well, true "enough), the ding screws up braking and replacing them this often is getting expensive -- yes, I'm using V-brakes and no I'm not looking to change to disks. I'm beginning to wonder if it might be that the rim material on these DT's is a bit soft. I'd like to replace the rim (it's a worthy hub) and lace on something that's not so inclined to dent when the occasional big hit occurs. Like I said, no problem with the front rims when similar hits occur -- using open pro, IRD Cadence, and Ksyrium rims there. So yes, I could try either the open pro or cadence on the rear, but if there's something that is by consensus the best choice I'd like to know. I'm riding a rigid frame, running a range of tires (nothing too wide as the frame won't allow it, usually a nanoraptor, crossmark, or fast track).

    Thanks!
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    I'm not sure how others feel about the DT's but I think their bead seat is mediocre at best and they are almost as soft as butter. I dinged mine a few times and had about 4-5 tires peel off of the rim(never re-used one of those tires and I was running about 25 psi). I have been on Stan's Flows tubeless for about a year and a half with Rhyno Lites on my back up wheels(never used except for project bikes) with no complaints about either.

  3. #3
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    I recommend all of the usual suspects for a rear rim........topped of by a tire that has a bit beefier casing than what you're currently runnning.

    Food for thought, anyway.
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  4. #4
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    PeT - you're hanging on way too tightly. Get a wider rim and run discs. Sounds like you're using the wrong tool for the job as the other rims you reference are road rims. Step up to a WTB DD FR or equivalent.
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    I suppose if you want to build an anchor, the DD is a good idea - try stan's or mavic tn-719, and build them with good spokes and good tension.
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  6. #6
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    PeT -

    I am using vbrakes on my singlespeed and have been checking out rims too. For the last 5 years, I have been using some Salsa Delgado Cross rims laced to Paul Hubs.

    They have been nothing but great. I have beat on them and ridden them rigid for a long time and other than some normal truing...they have needed nothing.

    I've been looking at other rims to make tubeless a little easier, but the Delgado's have performed so nicely they are hard to get away from.

    I run about 150lbs and dont ride aggressively or do big drops.

    Let us know what rims you settle on.

    LP

  7. #7
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    Mavic A719.

    Been running them for 5 years. Only mild abrasions at the point where the braking surface turns into the bottom part of the rim--these small dings could be easily polished out. No major dents, or dings that would effect braking.

    I've been running pretty fat tires up front (exi, rampage, ardent). Always running the ignitor out back.

    I've got a SS extra right now if you want to try it out.
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  8. #8
    drev-il, not Dr. Evil!
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    I use a DT TK 7.1 on my Jones. It has dented a few times.

    I use a Salsa Delgado on my Chester. It doesn't dent. It's even older and I use v-brakes with it. It's a good rim, and what I prefer.

    Sorry for the tangent, but I put a Speedway rim on the front of my Chester this weekend. It's dang fun

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    Drevil-What fork did you use on the Chester? I've wanted to have Pugsley tire setup fork/wheel for fun (I live 3 hours from the Sand Dunes) and snow. How you digging the Speedways?

    As far as Dent resistant rims-EDGE. Expensive yes. But I've got a year on a set of 29er wheesl now (though rear wheel is now for sale since I went to a 69er). You dent that rim you will have much bigger problems than a dented rim. Yes it's carbon, but it's carbon done right.
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    This is the first ride on the rear of my hardtail AIR 9, on Mammoth Rock trail, with a Salsa Delgado disc in the rear, a beginners trail, that I've run numerous times with a Rhyno Lite on the RIP 9 with zero damage.




    Look into a Rhyno Lite, cheap, strong, not light.

  11. #11
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    I have some Velocity Dyads I've had on a few bikes they are still running strong. Just another option.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    This is the first ride on the rear of my hardtail AIR 9, on Mammoth Rock trail, with a Salsa Delgado disc in the rear, a beginners trail, that I've run numerous times with a Rhyno Lite on the RIP 9 with zero damage.




    Look into a Rhyno Lite, cheap, strong, not light.

    randy's photo contains all the info necessary to eliminate rim dents.

    and to the op: the back rim definitely takes more abuse than the front rim. all the time. you can see where you're putting the front wheel, you guess and hope that the back wheel goes where you inted it to, but really don't know for sure. and the back wheel carries more of your weight than the front.

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    Quote Originally Posted by centerridgerider
    I have some Velocity Dyads I've had on a few bikes they are still running strong. Just another option.
    I've spread a Dyad open. I have another one that has a dent in the side. They are not all that beefy.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    This is the first ride on the rear of my hardtail AIR 9, on Mammoth Rock trail, with a Salsa Delgado disc in the rear, a beginners trail, that I've run numerous times with a Rhyno Lite on the RIP 9 with zero damage.


    Look into a Rhyno Lite, cheap, strong, not light.
    Remember, the OP wanted v-brake compatible rims. The Salsa Delgado Disc is a completely different rim from the regular version. I have seen quite a few of the Disc ones dented also.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by juansevo
    Drevil-What fork did you use on the Chester? I've wanted to have Pugsley tire setup fork/wheel for fun (I live 3 hours from the Sand Dunes) and snow. How you digging the Speedways?
    Jeff Jones/ Vicious Cycles 135mm fork. Digging them very much. Wide and relatively light works well for me
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amnesia
    I'm not sure how others feel about the DT's but I think their bead seat is mediocre at best and they are almost as soft as butter. I dinged mine a few times and had about 4-5 tires peel off of the rim(never re-used one of those tires and I was running about 25 psi). I have been on Stan's Flows tubeless for about a year and a half with Rhyno Lites on my back up wheels(never used except for project bikes) with no complaints about either.
    Hmmm...I can't weigh in on the DT's yet, as I just got my X470's. They've taken some pretty hard rim hits with no problem.

    My ZTR 355's, on the other hand, would dent if someone coughed around them. I've sworn off Stan's rims for that very reason. I think that they're SOFT.

    Hardest rims I've ever used at WTB Speeddiscs. I had a direct hit with a small boulder at 30+ mph. Enough to rip the tire and throw it off of the rim. I thought that I had broken my frame. Rim didn't even flinch. Kind of heavy, though.

  17. #17
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    I'm pretty new to 29ers, so don't have a specific rim to recommend, but I have a long personal experience with bikes and building wheels. I can tell you that a rim that doesn't ding will crack. A rim that doesn't crack will ding. There's a continuum there. The trick to not cracking rims at the eyelets is consistent and correct spoke tension. Eventually they do crack.

    Figure out the alloy of the DT rim. Then poll all the other manufacturers for their rim's alloys. Go for the harder alloys.

    Relying on 29er v-brake rims is going to involve painting yourself into a corner, to an extent. Sorry.

    OK, my last bit of feedback, still not that helpful; I've been riding a pair of Stans Flow rims set up tubeless on rough terrain for five months and so far no dings. I'm 212lbs. There's probably something to using heavier rims as well, for ding-resistance.

    Morgan

  18. #18
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    My opinion/question:
    What's causing the dents?
    Side impact on the rims?
    Or pinch impact while descending?
    If it's the pinch imact, running higher PSI could help a lot more than one would think.

  19. #19
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    Thanks for the suggestions

    This rim is to circle my Rohloff hub. The bike is my epic rides/long distance race bike and like my single speed is fully "firm" (i.e. - no suspension, hate the term "rigid"). Anyway, the dents have been pinch impacts while descending, the last one actually during a local XC race when I'm more willing to hang it out a bit. I will certainly remember this for awhile and make sure PSI on the rear is greater than I've been want to run it of late.

    I'm leaning towards one of two rims, either the Salsa Delgado Cross or the Mavic CXP33. The Delgado Cross rim has (apparently) a good reputation and is quite reasonable priced. However, I might need to spring for new, longer spokes, raising the cost of replacement.

    The Mavic CXP33 is a high-end, reasonably high-profile road rim so it's narrow, but I run narrow road rims on the front of both bikes without incidence, even ghetto tubeless with a 2.4 Racing Ralph. Furthermore, I've had good luck with Mavic Open Pro and Ksyrium rims both front and rear on my cross bike using 32c tires on legitimate trails (sure, I need to go slower) and for cross-racing. The CXP33, like the open pro and ksyrium rims, is made from "Maxtal" (whatever that means) and has an excellent reputation as a burlier cross rim. I note that the Mavic Speedcity (700c) and Crossmax (26") have Maxtal rims, and as far as I can tell they're pretty strong with respect to denting. The ERD for the CXP33 and the DT Swiss TK7.1 is the same, so I can stay on the same spokes (done that before when the rim dented but didn't taco), offsetting somewhat the significantly greater cost for the CXP33 compared to the Salsa rim.

    I need to make a decision soon, as snow and ice is just around the corner and having the Rohloff'd bike fully functional will be important for those conditions.

    Again, thanks for the suggestions and insights.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeT
    The ERD for the CXP33 and the DT Swiss TK7.1 is the same, so I can stay on the same spokes (done that before when the rim dented but didn't taco), offsetting somewhat the significantly greater cost for the CXP33 compared to the Salsa rim.
    Unless you've measured the CXP33 yourself I'd be VERY wary of the ERD numbers, especially since the ERD compatibility is a decision driver for you. I have built many wheelsets with Mavic rims and not once has the measured ERD corresponded to their reported 'SSD'. It is often off by as much as 5mm.
    Note that Mavic recommends 14mm nipples for the CXP33.

  21. #21
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    You need more air pressure. Especially considering the wider rims that are more prevalent today, but generally just more air pressure.

    Low air-pressure = flat spots and dings.

    This is why I can't understand the "benefit" of being able to run lower pressure with tubeless. I already run the pressure as low as I can and avoid flat spotting ant denting the rim. Running lower pressure is just going to trash my wheels.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jl
    Mavic A719.

    Been running them for 5 years. Only mild abrasions at the point where the braking surface turns into the bottom part of the rim--these small dings could be easily polished out. No major dents, or dings that would effect braking.

    I've been running pretty fat tires up front (exi, rampage, ardent). Always running the ignitor out back.

    I've got a SS extra right now if you want to try it out.
    +1 on the A719. I've had one on the back of my mountain bike for three years, no problems. Sometimes I "feel" the rim, but no dings.

    I'm not sure the road rims you are looking at will cure your problem.

    What ERD are you figuring your DT rims have? I've got them listed at 600mm. That's about what the A719 is- I've seen them listed at 599 and 600 and 600.5. The CXP33 is what? 596? See:
    http://tinyurl.com/lym6v6

    I'd say either go for the A719 (weight is the same as the DT you are replacing, and you won't need new spokes) OR go for a Sun CR-18. They're cheap, at around $30. Weight is around the same as the Mavic and DT (the Sun rims are advertised as 540 grams, but they actually weigh more like 575). You'd have to replace the spokes, but you can do that with the $30 savings on the rim, and then if you dent the rim again, you're only out $30 for a new rim. The CR-18 is pretty tough, but I don't have mountain experience with them on the rear, only the front.

    Of course, running more tire pressure would fix the problem. But, given that you've got a dented rim now, might as well replace it with something more durable, up the tire PSI a few pounds, and you're good to go...

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Biker
    +1 on the A719. ... What ERD are you figuring your DT rims have?
    Well, using the "spocalc" excel spreadsheet that's been floating around for years (and has never let me down) and the DT Swiss site's spoke calculator, the DT and CPX33 would both use 285 mm spokes (more or less same ERD according to them and taking into account the slightly longer nipple for CPX33). So yes, the ERD for the DT is supposedly 600. I'm sure the A719 would work to, but my personal experience with the "Maxtal" alloy in the CPX33 (and not used for the A719) was what has me considering the "road" rim. But really, the only thing differing road from 29er when it comes to rims is width, and narrow rims have not proven to be a problem for me off-road -- and I feel like I have plenty of experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by John_Biker
    Of course, running more tire pressure would fix the problem. But, given that you've got a dented rim now, might as well replace it with something more durable, up the tire PSI a few pounds, and you're good to go...
    Exactly, more PSI would prevent the problem but that's something that is usually only known after you've clunked clear through to the rim. I banged my Ksyrium front wheel clear to the rim in the same race several times and didn't suffer any rim damage, hence my thinking the DT Swiss rim is "soft" since I don't remember it ever getting clunked to the rim. So, yes I'll run more PSI but there will come a time when it's not quite enough and I'd prefer that it wasn't an $80 mistake, rather just a "clunk" to remind me to either take it easy for the rest of the ride or top it off right then.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeT
    I'm sure the A719 would work to, but my personal experience with the "Maxtal" alloy in the CPX33 (and not used for the A719) was what has me considering the "road" rim. But really, the only thing differing road from 29er when it comes to rims is width, and narrow rims have not proven to be a problem for me off-road -- and I feel like I have plenty of experience.
    If narrow rims work for you, what you might do is to try to find the heaviest rim per width that you can. Just divide width by grams and go for the low numbers. Those CXP rims might be good for you- they are pretty heavy for their width. And you'll feel all aerodynamic! :-)

    I would caution against assuming something will work in the back just because it has worked for you in the front. It is much easier to finesse the front over a bump than it is the back, and you've got more weight on the back, too.

    Let us know what you end up with and how it works out for you.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeT
    Well, using the "spocalc" excel spreadsheet that's been floating around for years (and has never let me down) and the DT Swiss site's spoke calculator, the DT and CPX33 would both use 285 mm spokes (more or less same ERD according to them and taking into account the slightly longer nipple for CPX33). So yes, the ERD for the DT is supposedly 600. I'm sure the A719 would work to, but my personal experience with the "Maxtal" alloy in the CPX33 (and not used for the A719) was what has me considering the "road" rim. But really, the only thing differing road from 29er when it comes to rims is width, and narrow rims have not proven to be a problem for me off-road -- and I feel like I have plenty of experience.
    Not that it matters, but Mavic only makes one '29er' rim, the TN719. Any rim with an 'A' in front is considered a 'road' rim (the 'A' stands for asphalt). I think you're mostly right about the difference between road and 29er rims, so when was it that 29er rims were no good (I'm alluding to a statement you make in your cross-posted thread)? Any examples? Bontrager made great 29er rims for production offerings as early as 2003... 28h, no less.
    One advantage that the A319 has is that it costs about half of what either the CPX33 or A719 cost. It is wider, if that turns you off.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeT
    Exactly, more PSI would prevent the problem but that's something that is usually only known after you've clunked clear through to the rim. I banged my Ksyrium front wheel clear to the rim in the same race several times and didn't suffer any rim damage, hence my thinking the DT Swiss rim is "soft" since I don't remember it ever getting clunked to the rim. So, yes I'll run more PSI but there will come a time when it's not quite enough and I'd prefer that it wasn't an $80 mistake, rather just a "clunk" to remind me to either take it easy for the rest of the ride or top it off right then.
    The rear wheel supports much more weight than the front, so despite the front having gone to the rim, doing the same on the back is more likely to cause a ding. Also, I'd say detecting a bump to the rim in the back would be more difficult, since it's likely to happen while standing and the leverage of the axle to bottom bracket would reduce the sensation, as would the fact that you'd feel it through your shoes rather than in a direct line to your hands. Armchair speculation here... just ideas, because the jump to the assumption that the DT rim is 'soft' isn't a very obvious one to me.
    Good luck. If you're sold on maxtal and 'road' rims, I think your decision was made or at least narrowed to a couple of Mavic offerings before you posted.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeT
    This rim is to circle my Rohloff hub. The bike is my epic rides/long distance race bike and like my single speed is fully "firm" (i.e. - no suspension, hate the term "rigid"). Anyway, the dents have been pinch impacts while descending, the last one actually during a local XC race when I'm more willing to hang it out a bit. I will certainly remember this for awhile and make sure PSI on the rear is greater than I've been want to run it of late.

    I'm leaning towards one of two rims, either the Salsa Delgado Cross or the Mavic CXP33. The Delgado Cross rim has (apparently) a good reputation and is quite reasonable priced. However, I might need to spring for new, longer spokes, raising the cost of replacement.

    The Mavic CXP33 is a high-end, reasonably high-profile road rim so it's narrow, but I run narrow road rims on the front of both bikes without incidence, even ghetto tubeless with a 2.4 Racing Ralph. Furthermore, I've had good luck with Mavic Open Pro and Ksyrium rims both front and rear on my cross bike using 32c tires on legitimate trails (sure, I need to go slower) and for cross-racing. The CXP33, like the open pro and ksyrium rims, is made from "Maxtal" (whatever that means) and has an excellent reputation as a burlier cross rim. I note that the Mavic Speedcity (700c) and Crossmax (26") have Maxtal rims, and as far as I can tell they're pretty strong with respect to denting. The ERD for the CXP33 and the DT Swiss TK7.1 is the same, so I can stay on the same spokes (done that before when the rim dented but didn't taco), offsetting somewhat the significantly greater cost for the CXP33 compared to the Salsa rim.

    I need to make a decision soon, as snow and ice is just around the corner and having the Rohloff'd bike fully functional will be important for those conditions.

    Again, thanks for the suggestions and insights.
    I've used the CXP33 for road and cyclocross. It's pretty tough. An even taller Mavic rim is the CXP-30. It's very robust. Another, similar rim is the DT RR1.2, to bring it back to DT.

    Maxtal is their aluminum alloy.

    Morgan

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    Not that it matters, but Mavic only makes one '29er' rim, the TN719. Any rim with an 'A' in front is considered a 'road' rim (the 'A' stands for asphalt). I think you're mostly right about the difference between road and 29er rims, so when was it that 29er rims were no good (I'm alluding to a statement you make in your cross-posted thread)? Any examples? Bontrager made great 29er rims for production offerings as early as 2003... 28h, no less.
    One advantage that the A319 has is that it costs about half of what either the CPX33 or A719 cost. It is wider, if that turns you off.

    The rear wheel supports much more weight than the front, so despite the front having gone to the rim, doing the same on the back is more likely to cause a ding. Also, I'd say detecting a bump to the rim in the back would be more difficult, since it's likely to happen while standing and the leverage of the axle to bottom bracket would reduce the sensation, as would the fact that you'd feel it through your shoes rather than in a direct line to your hands. Armchair speculation here... just ideas, because the jump to the assumption that the DT rim is 'soft' isn't a very obvious one to me.
    Good luck. If you're sold on maxtal and 'road' rims, I think your decision was made or at least narrowed to a couple of Mavic offerings before you posted.
    I've used the A719s touring and on my 29er. They are strong rims. I dented one once, but that was me t boning a curb with a loaded touring bike with 700x32c tires. And it wasn't a big dent. With my new A719 rims, I've never dented them... I'm not sure I can really give them a good or bad review as far as dent resistance, I'm no expert on that.

    I own two wheel sets with A719 rims. Apparently they're heat treated, which makes them stronger (?) They seem to do the trick for me.

    I've since moved my 29er wheelset to my cross bike and am running WTB DD FR rims on my mountain bike (with rim brakes.) I've probably bottomed them out more, and no dents so far, they seem tough. (Again, no expert.)

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    ...so when was it that 29er rims were no good (I'm alluding to a statement you make in your cross-posted thread)? Any examples? Bontrager made great 29er rims for production offerings as early as 2003... 28h, no less.
    Okay, caught in a bit of hyperbole there, but I beg to differ on the early Bontrager offerings... Not that it matters now with a lot of good choices available.

    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    ...doing the same on the back is more likely to cause a ding. ... because the jump to the assumption that the DT rim is 'soft' isn't a very obvious one to me.
    Your point about the rear being under more stress is a good one -- clearly true in my experience. With respect to my speculating that the DT rim is "soft", I make that based upon a gazillion miles of off-road riding (okay, hyperbole again but I'm pretty old and have been riding for a long time) and noting that I've dented two DT rims in as many years and can't recall denting a rim from a hit that didn't also (a) taco the wheel and (b) have me rolling head-over-tail across the countryside collecting detritus. Not a large sample, but it's the data I have and it would be silly to go back to an expensive rim that's disappointed me twice.

    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    If you're sold on maxtal and 'road' rims, I think your decision was made or at least narrowed to a couple of Mavic offerings before you posted.
    Not sold on Maxtal, but also not ready to discount road rims and subsequent to posting I found lots of recommendations for open pro (tough) and CPX33 (really tough) for cyclocross racing. Quite frankly, if I wasn't running a Rohloff I would be on Kysrium road wheels front and rear -- they've been absolutely bomber mounted front and rear on my cross bike and on the front of my 29er, easy to set up tubeless, super stiff, and quite light. But for all that, if I spring for longer nipples -- I'm a fan of long nipples -- I could probably use my existing spokes with a Salsa Delagado Cross rim for half the price, no more weight, and a bit more width than a Mavic CPX33 or Open Pro. Hmmmm...
    "The plural of anecdote is not data." -- Attributed to various people in a variety of forms, but always worth remembering...

  29. #29
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    Peter-

    Sounds like you've taken up hucking!!! And bashing! Good for you!

    The ERD of the TK is a solid 600. Has been on every one I've measured going back to the first box of 'em I opened when they first came out several years ago.

    I understand that reusing current spokes is potentially important here, and unfortunately I'm ~1500 miles from the shop and my list of ERD's to help. IIRC there aren't too many that come close to the 600 of the TK. Only one that comes immediately to mind is the Ritchey OCR Pro, which has an offset spoke bed and is pretty darn burly. IIRC they are close to 600g per rim, and that added 60g of mass could be a deal killer for you.

    Forgive me if you've written this elsewhere in this thread, but is there a reason you aren't considering the Bontrager Mustang or Maverick rims? Can't remember the ERD's of these offhand, but IIRC they're in the 606-608 range. They seem solid and dependable to me these days--I've built probably 100 of them in the last three years and can't think of a single return or even call for help about them. They are also very, very easy to set up tubeless (you're a pro at it anyway) and pretty light at an average of ~480g per. ~24mm wide and machined brake track too.

    Anyhoo--just some fodder.

    Cheers,

    MC

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Sounds like you've taken up hucking!!! And bashing! Good for you!
    Well, not exactly. Well, not even close. Although at my advanced age I somehow find myself finally able to descend as well as the local sport class racers. Still can't keep up with anyone with any real skills...

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Forgive me if you've written this elsewhere in this thread, but is there a reason you aren't considering the Bontrager Mustang or Maverick rims?
    No reason other than I haven't uncovered any info about them. From your description they sound like a worthy choice and one I might be willing to buy new spokes for! The Bontrager site (even as linked from your site) doesn't seem to have info on the rims -- just pre-built wheels. You might be hearing from me about this wheel if I decide to wimp-out on rebuilding it myself...

    Thanks for your input!
    "The plural of anecdote is not data." -- Attributed to various people in a variety of forms, but always worth remembering...

  31. #31
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    Absolutely correct! The rear wheel takes more abuse due to weight in the back. Again correct, you tend to lift the front and hope,...just hope the rear jumps up high enough.

    I have the mavic 719's and dented them about into the 2nd ride.... I guess no rims are dent-proof.


    QUOTE=sean salach]randy's photo contains all the info necessary to eliminate rim dents.

    and to the op: the back rim definitely takes more abuse than the front rim. all the time. you can see where you're putting the front wheel, you guess and hope that the back wheel goes where you inted it to, but really don't know for sure. and the back wheel carries more of your weight than the front.[/QUOTE]

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