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  1. #1
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    Steel Full Suspension Bikes

    These seem to be gaining popularity in the small brand/hand made bike market. I love the short travel 29er segment with progressive geometry and the lure of steel makes me want one!

    Cotic FlareMAX, Swarf Contour, Starling Murmur (or SS Beady Little Eye!!!), who else? Seems to be gaining momentum, especially in the UK.

    There's also custom frame builder options like Waltworks, and I've seen a few at NAHBA the last few years, but I'm wondering how long it will be until a semi major manufacturer starts offering production steel full suspension bikes/frames?

    What other full suspension steel bikes are available?
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  2. #2
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    There are a few others, seems most are based in the UK or EU.
    Other one you didn't list was Production Privee, french company and Stanton Bikes, another UK company. One of the smaller mtb rags online did a review about a year or so ago of some of the top steel bike builders, I was dead set on getting myself a Cotic RocketMAX (wanted more travel) as I love my old On-One Inbred 29er steel hardtail, but the logistical cost of getting it to the US added a bit.

  3. #3
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    Stanton are another brand making them.

    Personally, I don't see any advantage for a FS bike being made out of steel vs alloy or carbon (obviously different story with a hardtail) but I've never ridden one so that's not based on much.

  4. #4
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    They are cool, no doubt. But steel has 3 things going against it

    Heavy
    Flex
    Rust

    Of course benefits are

    Strong
    Easy to repair

    Cant remember the brand, but the raw steel bike with brass brazing... straight up eye candy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eshew View Post
    They are cool, no doubt. But steel has 3 things going against it

    Heavy
    Flex
    Rust

    Of course benefits are

    Strong
    Easy to repair

    Cant remember the brand, but the raw steel bike with brass brazing... straight up eye candy.
    I thought Stanton bikes are treated internally to prevent rust but I guess in the event of a crash and subsequent paint removal that would rust and leave a good looking scar. By the time a steel frame ever rusted through it would be beyond the normal life of any bike though.

    I've been considering the Stanton FS for some time now as a race bike, just something about them that appeals to me and that little bit of extra weight just adds to the stability. The rear leverage rate is solidly progressive and looks almost perfect to me.

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    I'd say go for it, historically speaking I'm reluctant to try anything new... it may also be because I'm incredibly cheap.

    I agree with you from the rust standpoint, sure you may get some surface rust, but certainly not destructive in terms of weakness.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by eshew View Post
    They are cool, no doubt. But steel has 3 things going against it

    Heavy
    Flex
    Rust

    Of course benefits are

    Strong
    Easy to repair

    Cant remember the brand, but the raw steel bike with brass brazing... straight up eye candy.
    Add: Poor suspension designs. Seriously, if there was a steel frame that was engineered with a DW suspension, that would be a cool bike.

    That Swarf Contour looks great until you read single pivot and 445mm chainstays.

    I get that complicated suspensions are challenging to design and build, but if I'm springing for a high end frame, it needs a high end suspension, otherwise I'd be riding rigid.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    Stanton are another brand making them.

    Personally, I don't see any advantage for a FS bike being made out of steel vs alloy or carbon (obviously different story with a hardtail) but I've never ridden one so that's not based on much.
    If you want a flexy frame, in theory the flex can be designed in to be a positive attribute, though in my experience a flexy frame means tire and chain rub.

    So heavier, flexier, yeah, no real advantages, just different to be different kinda like Ti.
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  9. #9
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    Yup, should have had Stanton and Production Privee on the list, good call.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Add: Poor suspension designs. Seriously, if there was a steel frame that was engineered with a DW suspension, that would be a cool bike.

    That Swarf Contour looks great until you read single pivot and 445mm chainstays.

    I get that complicated suspensions are challenging to design and build, but if I'm springing for a high end frame, it needs a high end suspension, otherwise I'd be riding rigid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    If you want a flexy frame, in theory the flex can be designed in to be a positive attribute, though in my experience a flexy frame means tire and chain rub.

    So heavier, flexier, yeah, no real advantages, just different to be different kinda like Ti.
    Yes, clearly these bikes are not for you. You've made your opinion clear.
    Last edited by driver bob; 05-07-2019 at 05:45 AM. Reason: removed taunting
    Rigid SS 29er
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  10. #10
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    Like many long time bikers, the mantra steel is real reasonates, but to bring steel into the modern age, the designs must reflect modern geometry. A short travel single pivot FS bike with a 445mm chainstay is crap.

    Who’s gonna buy a bike just cuz it’s “pretty”, esp when it’s priced the same as a quality carbon frame?

    Face it, to compete with other frame materials, steel had to be as good or better than aluminum or carbon: better geo, better suspension, better design.

    Personally I’d buy an FS steel frame for a one pound penalty, if it was any good, otherwise I’d buy a steel hardtail and leave the full suspension duties to my other bikes.

    Reality check, 3k gets you into Ti territory.

    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    Yup, should have had Stanton and Production Privee on the list, good call.





    Yes, clearly these bikes are not for you. You've made your opinion clear. Please find your way to another thread that suites your taste better.
    Last edited by driver bob; 05-07-2019 at 05:46 AM. Reason: removed reply to taunting
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Add: Poor suspension designs. Seriously, if there was a steel frame that was engineered with a DW suspension, that would be a cool bike.

    That Swarf Contour looks great until you read single pivot and 445mm chainstays.

    I get that complicated suspensions are challenging to design and build, but if I'm springing for a high end frame, it needs a high end suspension, otherwise I'd be riding rigid.
    Nice sweeping generalization mate. Check out the rear suspension on the Stanton FS.

  12. #12
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    Agree to disagree but keep it civil please. Posts edited accordingly.

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    https://www.curtisbikes.co.uk/

    Brian Curtis (as far as I know) hasn't yet built a 29er FS bike but if I had the budget I'd ask him to do it.

    I've always (for 20+ years) loved his bikes.

  14. #14
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    This thread is intended to discuss what steel full suspension bikes are available. Not argue their validity.

    I don't think what I said was taunting, just asking a persistently negative and strongly opinionated person to move on to another thread instead of derailing and plugging up this conversation with a bunch of argumentative BS.
    Rigid SS 29er
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

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    Mone Cycles has been showing off a brazed steel FS. You can order a custom steel full sus from Marino Cycles. BTR Pinner as well. The DMR Bolt Long is a steel full sus (and 26") but kind of in between a slopestyle bike and a regular full sus.
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  16. #16
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    Rigid SS 29er
    SS 29+
    Fat Lefty
    SS cyclocross
    Full Sus 29er (Yuck)

    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    Stanton are another brand making them.

    Personally, I don't see any advantage for a FS bike being made out of steel vs alloy or carbon (obviously different story with a hardtail) but I've never ridden one so that's not based on much.
    Steel is an alloy.

    Steel is stronger than aluminum and lasts forever, and if it's heavier, the difference is marginal.

    I hope we see a steel FS bike for sale somewhere in the US soon outside of the unreachable custom market for me. I may have to bite the bullet and buy an aluminum bike someday, but I don't really want to.

  18. #18
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    There was an article (will have to do some searching to see if I can find it) that much of what is needed out of steel to attain the same rigidity and strength of current "burly" aluminum bikes is quite a bit less thick tubes and large tubes. Much can be attained from the new 4130 Chromoly, Reynolds, or other alloys out there to attain similar results, still have that "warm" feeling that steel has but be close to the same weight (if not the same weight) as many of the aluminum bikes.

    I think the generalization of heavy, flexy, rusty, etc. was all true 10yrs ago but today the processes to be able to "mold" steel tubes and the advances in geometric understanding, kinesthetics, leverage ratios and all the stuff to be able to "build" those awesome bikes we have now transfers over to steel. This is why we are starting to see a resurgence of steel bikes popping up. If this weren't the case we would not see as many people starting companies with steel bikes. They are no longer just the ss or city commuter type bikes they used to be.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    This thread is intended to discuss what steel full suspension bikes are available. Not argue their validity.

    I don't think what I said was taunting, just asking a persistently negative and strongly opinionated person to move on to another thread instead of derailing and plugging up this conversation with a bunch of argumentative BS.
    Then let people express their opinions without feedback. My comments are no less or more important that yours. And I really don't appreciate negative reps for BS.

    Edit: I'm gonna add you to my ignore list, you might want to do the same to me, then we won't trigger each other.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    I think the generalization of heavy, flexy, rusty, etc. was all true 10yrs ago
    Nope, it wasn't.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac48 View Post
    Nice sweeping generalization mate. Check out the rear suspension on the Stanton FS.
    The Stanton 27.5 bike looks good (CS 435), but again the 445mm chanistays on the 29er are looong.

    As to suspension design, I'd have to be convinced that a boutique builder has designed something that's as good or better than something like the established brands who have R & D out the wazoo. Even if the steel builder copies a known design, just as long as it works.

    I totally support small brands which is why I ride Guerilla Gravity, Lenz, etc... but like Greg suggested, a steel frame has got to be competitive with the other materials. Even Ti can suck if it's poorly designed.

    I am in the USA, so UK brands are probably not going to make into my quiver due to no test ride options and concerns over warranty, but a domestic option might be intersting if the geo was "normal".

    Anyone got kinematics to compare some of these steel FS frames with the known designs?
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    Steel is an alloy...
    That's why I'll only settle for an iron FS bike.
    What, me worry?

  23. #23
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    I love these steel suspension bikes from the UK. Probably not gonna order a FS from the UK but I have ordered a hardtail. These guys are much more at the forefront of geometry than the big brands. A steel frame is going to be heavier than a carbon wonder bike but will still be going strong when the former is landfill.

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Like many long time bikers, the mantra steel is real reasonates, but to bring steel into the modern age, the designs must reflect modern geometry. A short travel single pivot FS bike with a 445mm chainstay is crap.


    Who’s gonna buy a bike just cuz it’s “pretty”, esp when it’s priced the same as a quality carbon frame?


    Face it, to compete with other frame materials, steel had to be as good or better than aluminum or carbon: better geo, better suspension, better design.


    Personally I’d buy an FS steel frame for a one pound penalty, if it was any good, otherwise I’d buy a steel hardtail and leave the full suspension duties to my other bikes.


    Reality check, 3k gets you into Ti territory.
    I'm quite certain my single pivot will out perform your unicycle all over the mountain, but that doesn't stop you from riding one...
    Rigid SS 29er
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  25. #25
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    I agree with gregnash, the old generalisation doesn’t sit as well with the new wave of FS steel bikes. They are streets ahead of past iterations.

    They have turned around a negative trait to a very positive trait. The grip a new FS steel bike can get is often quite a lot better than the flashy brands from my experience and that’s just not me saying that, all of the recent reviews have lauded the handling of these bikes.

    They are back in vogue due to a confluence of recent developments. Up to date geo, great fabrication/execution/material, 29er wheels and 1x12 gearing. All these things help them carry the extra pound well and the bikes just plain rip.

    The whole ride feel is tactile, alive, and invigorating, if you want an engaging, exciting and fast ride, try the new steel.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamK View Post
    The whole ride feel is tactile, alive, and invigorating, if you want an engaging, exciting and fast ride, try the new steel.
    Heck, that describes my old chrome moly Bridgestone MB5 frame that has been collecting dust. I can't bring myself to throw the frame out and keep thinking I need to refurbish it and build something up. I loved the feel of that bike.

  27. #27
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    I've always wondered why there aren't more steel FS rides out there. I know some of the smaller builders had one or two but it wasn't a large part of their business I suppose. I seem to recall a builder named Culver or something like that that I was looking at years ago. I have zero interest in riding a plastic bike on mtn trails. My roadie is an old Lemond half carbon half ti and that's as close as I'll get to carbon.

    I prefer smaller builders if I can find one I gel with when talking on the phone. I would like a FS again someday and steel would be my #1 choice. I've ridden nothing but steel MTB's for over 10 years and just love the ride quality and feel. I'm not a weight weenie so an extra pound is nothing.

    So yea, I'm highly interested in this subject.

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  28. #28
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    I've got a set of 26x2.8" tires&wheels, I'd like a steel 27.5er with tire clearance to replace my 26" aluminum Camber. I'm definitely interested.
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    I’ve had a Waltworks steel 29+ 160mm FS for about 3 years now. He did it with 425mm chainstays and it is both stable and super nimble for its size. (530mm reach and 720mm stack) Nicely complements the XXL GG metal Smash. Both excellent bikes!

  30. #30
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    I think the ability to easily hydroform aluminum has really changed the game for bikes in general. My google fu didn't turn up much for hydroforming steel other then low carbon steel, and in that case idk if that would make a great material for bike frames.

    Pound for pound steel tubing doesn't stand a change against a hydroformed aluminum tube designed specifically for the application. And hydroforming is much more precise and repeatable with much tighter tolerances when compared to bending steel tubing.

    All the arguments above totally overlook this.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Rager View Post
    That's why I'll only settle for an iron FS bike.
    Fair enough. I resent the term "alloy" to represent aluminum. It demonstrates ignorance about the precise topic these threads are already about, which is discussing which metal makes the best bike. Even saying "aluminum" really doesn't tell you anything about the material either (since there are so many types), but it at least identifies that we're talking about a narrower class than all alloyed metal.

  32. #32
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    Most of the arguments against building from steel seem to apply a lot more to online geekery and marketing mumbo-jumbo than actual riding IMHO. My Al hydroformed and carbon fiber bikes don't actually ride any better than my steel HT and FS bikes. I'm sure some people can go full dork and pull out spreadsheets and diagrams showing fractions of percentages gained in some areas, but in the real world, I can't feel the difference and I'm betting the majority of others couldn't either.
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  33. #33
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    Just saw an ad for this company .. made in USA claims modern geo etc.

    https://ferrumbikes.com/

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by supermoto65 View Post
    Just saw an ad for this company .. made in USA claims modern geo etc.

    https://ferrumbikes.com/
    Crazy! Never heard of them and they are semi-local to me (at least in my state). Looks to be a single pivot suspension design similar to something like an Orange bike. Frameset is only $1300 USD which is nice.

  35. #35
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    Stanton's full sus is an aluminum rear triangle.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by supermoto65 View Post
    Just saw an ad for this company .. made in USA claims modern geo etc.

    https://ferrumbikes.com/
    Enduro frame 7#, not too bad.
    Chainstays are a tad long, but adjustable 440-455mm
    Made locally I guess, the business is located in Vegas, I suspect the frame is out of Asia.

    Check this out:
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  37. #37
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    Steel single pivot, done right:

    Steel Full Suspension Bikes-wr3.jpgSteel Full Suspension Bikes-wht.jpgSteel Full Suspension Bikes-sil.jpgSteel Full Suspension Bikes-purp1.jpgSteel Full Suspension Bikes-green.jpg
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  38. #38
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    ^ I love seeing those every time. Can we hang out so I can test ride all of them?
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    ^ I love seeing those every time. Can we hang out so I can test ride all of them?
    Most of those are scattered around New England being thrashed by riders far better than myself.

    But if you find yourself in White Mountains of NH at some point, I could maybe get you on something interesting for a spin.



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  40. #40
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    Re Ferrum Bikes

    Just ordered a frame through these guys. They were great to deal with and really were there to help as one of us that wanted to order was hoping to use the PayPal credit option so we could order at the same time. Unfortunately not available yet to us Canadians but these guys went above and beyond looking for other options to help us out.

    I highly recommend them and will be posting up the build once completed. Going to be kind of a mix and match of new/used parts to get rolling when it arrives until I can get older parts upgraded.

  41. #41
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    I was thinking about this thread earlier today. Perfect timing.

    Quote Originally Posted by rherman View Post
    Re Ferrum Bikes

    Just ordered a frame through these guys. They were great to deal with and really were there to help as one of us that wanted to order was hoping to use the PayPal credit option so we could order at the same time. Unfortunately not available yet to us Canadians but these guys went above and beyond looking for other options to help us out.

    I highly recommend them and will be posting up the build once completed. Going to be kind of a mix and match of new/used parts to get rolling when it arrives until I can get older parts upgraded.
    Yup, will need more details. Specs, geo, design, pics. Give us something.

    More details please.
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    I was thinking about this thread earlier today. Perfect timing.



    Yup, will need more details. Specs, geo, design, pics. Give us something.

    More details please.
    Well I decided to go with the large frameset almost as is. The only thing I changed was the reach and I am more comfortable around the 460-465 range so it will be somewhere in there.

    170mm 29er build
    DVO topaz shock, onyx fork and the garnet dropper 150mm as part of the frameset.
    HA - 64
    ST - 76
    RC - 440-455
    Reach I requested as above.

    No photos yet as I just placed the order. I asked for a rough color match to either the blue or orange from the first banshee rune v2 color options as I always liked those and want something that stands out more than straight black.

    Not too sure how to post photos but link to frameset here
    https://ferrumbikes.com/product/nv-c...duro-frameset/

    And their gallery
    https://ferrumbikes.com/instagram-gallery/

    I am pretty excited to try something new with the steel frame and in the process of selling both bike to go down to one.

    Plus these guys totally went the extra mile to try and accommodate the situation and totally earned my business. Anything else you want to l know that I can provide without actually having it in hand fire away.

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    I've been on a Starling Murmur for this year and I love it. It rides beautifully. Never really made sense to me why we need the absolute stiffest material to go down rough terrain. Or why everyone believes that a more complicated suspension design is automatically better. Especially with how adjustable and how much more efficient shock technology has become recently.

    It rides dead silent, it's super comfortable and has traction for days. It is not soft. It has a springiness/liveliness to it, if you are accustomed to board sports you know the feeling of a poppy fresh deck, or the snappiness of a fresh surfboard. I even took it to the bike park and my friends with the latest carbon super bikes/suspension were dying from arm pump at the end of each run. I felt perfectly fine.

    Compared to my last bike with pedaling platform shock and active braking pivot I'd much rather take a well placed single pivot, a halfway decent 4 way adjustable shock, and the mechanical feel of anti squat.

    As a bonus I don't worry about paint chips or even dents. I don't feel susceptible to the new model year hype anymore. The frame takes 2 bearings that I could find at an Ace hardware, and in a couple years I'll just powder coat it a fresh color and slap on the latest metric shock and fork.

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    I read a lot of reviews of the murmur before I made my decision. I am going down to one bike and I think you are absolutely right. Something simple that is built to last makes a lot of sense.

    Also having a bike kitted out with dvo should help get around any single pivot issues as you mentioned.

    Looking forward to getting it and building it up. I have a usual loop I do when short on time and I'm pretty excited to see the difference between this and my giant.

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    Again, I agree with gfourth. I have recently been on a new AL steed for a few weeks and also a week in Whislter. On the first day I was wishing for the feel of my steel. I found I was searching for that greater connection with the trail. The following days I tuned into the AL bike and got on with some park fun.

    I am back on the steel steed now and I am super happy. The difference became stark again. It is the feel, it is the engagement with the trail. There is a purity to the ride.

    Here is my murmur.

    Steel Full Suspension Bikes-murmur-1a.jpg

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    From reading/watching reviews of the murmur your comment is exactly what I am looking for in my next bike. With something that is longer travel it will hopefully be a true do it all bike and back to just having one bike. That thing just looks like it is ready to rip and have fun on.

    Also anyone over in NA I am thinking of seeing if there is some sort of interest in working with Ferrum if I can get them to come up with a group buy price. Anyone interested shoot me a note. As mentioned they really went above and beyond to help come up with a solution so I really want to get their name out and help them out.

    Looking forward to my first experience on a steel bike, cant come soon enough.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamK View Post
    It is the feel, it is the engagement with the trail. There is a purity to the ride.
    +1 and rep for that
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    Dry and dusty here

    A nice morning out on the murmur

    Steel Full Suspension Bikes-murmur-6a.jpg

    Crunchy leaves for the photo op

    Steel Full Suspension Bikes-murmur-7a.jpg

    Murmur is so fast, it is burning trees

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by rherman View Post
    Well I decided to go with the large frameset almost as is. The only thing I changed was the reach and I am more comfortable around the 460-465 range so it will be somewhere in there.

    170mm 29er build
    DVO topaz shock, onyx fork and the garnet dropper 150mm as part of the frameset.
    HA - 64
    ST - 76
    RC - 440-455
    Reach I requested as above.

    No photos yet as I just placed the order. I asked for a rough color match to either the blue or orange from the first banshee rune v2 color options as I always liked those and want something that stands out more than straight black.

    Not too sure how to post photos but link to frameset here
    https://ferrumbikes.com/product/nv-c...duro-frameset/

    And their gallery
    https://ferrumbikes.com/instagram-gallery/

    I am pretty excited to try something new with the steel frame and in the process of selling both bike to go down to one.

    Plus these guys totally went the extra mile to try and accommodate the situation and totally earned my business. Anything else you want to l know that I can provide without actually having it in hand fire away.
    Interesting bikes. Do you know the tire clearance with the sliders in the forward position?

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan View Post
    Interesting bikes. Do you know the tire clearance with the sliders in the forward position?
    Not too sure yet. I have 29x2.6 Goodyear escapes that came with a wheelset I bought used. When I get the frame and start building it up I will see how they fit on there. The wheels are WTB STP i29's and I really don't have any experience with 29ers so this is going to be a whole new experience for me.

    Ill definitely takes some pictures and post them as I build it up.

  51. #51
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    Rigid SS 29er
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    I highly recommend the Downtime Podcast featuring Joe. It's what convinced me to buy a murmur.

    On a side note I can't see how Joe and many others are running a coil on the murmur. I ran one for a while and it felt good despite having to run HSC maxed out slow. But at 145# I had to run a 500# spring. It was great on the DH but overall made the bike feel too slow/sluggish.

  53. #53
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    https://m.facebook.com/DarkOwlBicycles/

    The headbadge is lustworthy alone.

    I hope troy figures his production out.

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    Stoked to see your order went well so far with Ferrum - I am currently thinning the quiver and getting ready to place an order for the 170 semi custom w/ 63 HTA and a slightly longer reach in the 490 range. Cant wait

  55. #55
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    Just Ordered Mine

    I just ordered my Castellano Zorro.

    Lot's of folks dismiss all URT designs out of hand, but I'm not going into this blind. I like the design, particularly as an SS.

    The Zorro is the latest version of JC's "Sweetspot" design first used on the Ibis Szazbo and Schwinn Homegrown beginning in the mid 90s. I have a '99 Schwinn currently and have been riding it as my GoTo bike for about three years now. It has some shortcomings, but those are due to the XC inspired geometry, more than anything.

    The Zorro is now available with a tapered headube, a more relaxed head angle and is designed around a 160mm front fork. The rear travel is adjustable from 5 to 7 inches and it can accommodate 26, 27.5 or 29 inch wheels. The dreaded pogo/catapult which everyone claims is inherent in the design simply does not happen with the Zorro. To tell the truth, I've never had it happen on my Schwinn either. Apparently, modern shocks took care of that issue once installed in place of the original coil sprung rear.

    I had the pleasure of riding John C's personal ride for a couple of weeks in August and was STOKED how well it descended. I got together with him last week and got measured for my build and gave him the deposit to get started. Between his schedule and mine, we agreed to a delivery sometime around the first of the year.

    Here's a pic of his as ridden for two weeks in August. I get to pick colors when it's time and am thinking of honoring the original as built by Schwinn, with a bassboat color. We'll see.

    Steel Full Suspension Bikes-zorro-ilsanjo.jpg
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  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    I just ordered my Castellano Zorro.

    Lot's of folks dismiss all URT designs out of hand, but I'm not going into this blind. I like the design, particularly as an SS.

    The Zorro is the latest version of JC's "Sweetspot" design first used on the Ibis Szazbo and Schwinn Homegrown beginning in the mid 90s. I have a '99 Schwinn currently and have been riding it as my GoTo bike for about three years now. It has some shortcomings, but those are due to the XC inspired geometry, more than anything.

    The Zorro is now available with a tapered headube, a more relaxed head angle and is designed around a 160mm front fork. The rear travel is adjustable from 5 to 7 inches and it can accommodate 26, 27.5 or 29 inch wheels. The dreaded pogo/catapult which everyone claims is inherent in the design simply does not happen with the Zorro. To tell the truth, I've never had it happen on my Schwinn either. Apparently, modern shocks took care of that issue once installed in place of the original coil sprung rear.

    I had the pleasure of riding John C's personal ride for a couple of weeks in August and was STOKED how well it descended. I got together with him last week and got measured for my build and gave him the deposit to get started. Between his schedule and mine, we agreed to a delivery sometime around the first of the year.

    Here's a pic of his as ridden for two weeks in August. I get to pick colors when it's time and am thinking of honoring the original as built by Schwinn, with a bassboat color. We'll see.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    That is awesome! If they made a cheaper model, I'd be buying it.

  57. #57
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    Looks like the frame is done and is now ready for the powdercoater. Just need to finish ordering some parts and Ill be ready for when it arrives.Steel Full Suspension Bikes-thumbnail_image0.jpg

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    Did you end up ordering the frame?

    Stoked to see your order went well so far with Ferrum - I am currently thinning the quiver and getting ready to place an order for the 170 semi custom w/ 63 HTA and a slightly longer reach in the 490 range. Cant wait

  59. #59
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    Here's a prototype of a new bike. Only one size so far, similar geo, design, and travel to others. Looks pretty sweet though.

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-...full-suss.html
    Rigid SS 29er
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by rherman View Post
    Looks like the frame is done and is now ready for the powdercoater. Just need to finish ordering some parts and Ill be ready for when it arrives.Click image for larger version. 

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    Really looking forward to hearing what you think about the frame once you’ve had a chance to ride it. I can’t find any info about this frame other than what’s on this thread, Ferrum’s website and instagram page.

  61. #61
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    Will do. I plan on posting as much as I can about it. They are pretty new as a company so there is not a whole lot out there yet. Both my tenant and I will do our own reviews riding it. Im coming from a 2014 26" Giant Reign X so its going to be quite the difference.

    I should have the frame in about a week or so. Just working on getting some final parts together to complete the build. Kind of went over budget on the frame so getting a mismatch of parts together to get riding and will upgrade from there. Ill post photos/video and a review as soon as I can. I am trying to help get a more information out there about them and the frames.

  62. #62
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    Another UK manufacturer. Project 12 Cycleworks Vertigo.

    Vertigo – project12 Cycleworks

    Fillet brazed, lots of adjustability built into the frame to adjust geo, travel, wheels size, etc. Sounds pretty cool.

    https://www.instagram.com/project12.cycleworks/?hl=en

    It's a good lookin bike too. I like that it's a little shorter travel. 115mm rear or 137 rear.
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  63. #63
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    Steel Full Suspension Bikes

    I understand somewhat their appeal. Also, in the custom frame market steel is by far the easiest material to work with (unless you are some bamboo master). However FS and „steel“ in the same sentence reads out as HEAVY.
    Still I wonder what its like cause one of the main points of regular steel HT crowd is that steel is more forgiving. But given that fact, I wonder does that mean its even more laterally flexy (thx to those pivots).
    However I guess one would not make linkages out of steel? I guess CNCd aluminium makes much more sense.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Tristan Wolf; 11-09-2019 at 01:57 PM.

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    What is the intended use for these bikes, downhill? They do weight in at 35lbs depending on build. I wonder if there's any advantage on trails. I'm not a weight weenie but I am spoiled and jaded riding a sub 25lb hardtail. I really do like the looks of the Ferrum and cost is reasonable for semi-custom US builds. I have an email to them to see if they'll adjust the angles for 140mm fork and shorten chain stay some.

  65. #65
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    Around the 140mm travel mark they are super fun trail bikes. Playful and rewarding. These newer ones pedal really well and are a pleasure to trial ride.

    31lb (14kg) is very achievable.

  66. #66
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    I have six bikes currently. Five of them are steel--four rigid bikes of various types, and one hardtail. I like steel. However, the sixth bike is an aluminum frame FS bike. As far as I know, typical FS designs are meant to work such that the suspension handles the wheel movement, and you want the frame--both front and rear triangles--to be as rigid as possible. The exception that I know of is that on some FS bikes, including some Konas and Orbeas, the rear triangle is designed to flex, to obviate the need to have pivots merely to accommodate a few degrees (<5 degrees) of movement around/near the rear hub. This works fine for carbon, but seems a bit iffy for aluminum (though Kona had at least one flex triangle design in aluminum a couple of years ago, I know). If there is a frame designer or structural engineer here who knows better, please correct me, as i am neither.

    If I am right, then the flex that you get from a typical rigid steel frame, which is the source of the legendary steel ride, is not needed or desired in a full suspension frame. A good hydroformed aluminum frame is really good at being rigid at a relatively low weight. I like aluminum FS bikes because 1) they are cheaper than carbon and 2) I believe carbon frame production is bad for the environment. I see one advantage of a steel FS frame vs aluminum, though, which is that it is probably less likely to fail catastrophically than an aluminum frame.

  67. #67
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    Steel 'flex' is something that CAN be, not something that HAS to be.
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  68. #68
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    From what I'm gathering, weight is a pound or two more than aluminum which is fairly expensive to get below 32lbs. The real question is...do you like single pivot suspension? That seems to be used in the majority of the builds. I wonder how hard it is to create other suspension designs with mixed AL, CF and chromo.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    Another UK manufacturer. Project 12 Cycleworks Vertigo.

    Vertigo – project12 Cycleworks


    Amazing looking bike. They are from the Netherlands not the UK though just to give credit where it's due.

    I'd love to swing a leg over one.
    Safe riding,

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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Steel single pivot, done right:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Who makes the silver bike with the snow in the background? That one looks like it'll have no kickback and still be a light enough trail ride.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by scycllerist View Post
    Who makes the silver bike with the snow in the background? That one looks like it'll have no kickback and still be a light enough trail ride.
    They're all made by the same person.
    The idler helps a lot as far as 'kickback'. The silver one doesn't have a floating brake, but most of the others do, which also helps out on single pivots.
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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by scycllerist View Post
    What is the intended use for these bikes, downhill? They do weight in at 35lbs depending on build. I wonder if there's any advantage on trails. I'm not a weight weenie but I am spoiled and jaded riding a sub 25lb hardtail. I really do like the looks of the Ferrum and cost is reasonable for semi-custom US builds. I have an email to them to see if they'll adjust the angles for 140mm fork and shorten chain stay some.
    Well my Ferrum just arrived. I only managed to get it opened up last night out in the dark on the deck. Im Super pumped and think it looks sick. The quality seems to be top notch and I cant wait to build it up. I tried to do a bit of an un-boxing video but it was dark and cold and don't think it will look all that great when I upload it. It was also well below zero and I didn't want to spend all that much time standing out there.

    Attached are some photos. Special thanks to the guys from Ferrum as they were amazing to deal with and I think anyone would be pleased to order one. I will be building it up this weekend with the parts I have on hand which is a mix of older used stuff from previous bikes and some newer parts. Ill let you know how the first ride feels compared to my older reign x.

    CheersSteel Full Suspension Bikes-ferrum-bike-1.jpgSteel Full Suspension Bikes-ferrum-bike-2.jpgSteel Full Suspension Bikes-ferrum-bike-3.jpgSteel Full Suspension Bikes-ferrum-bike-4.jpgSteel Full Suspension Bikes-ferrum-bike-5.jpgSteel Full Suspension Bikes-ferrum-bike-6.jpg

  73. #73
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    Looks good. Enjoy the new bike.
    Safe riding,

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    Nice!! what's our intended use? Keep us posted.

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    Its going to be my one bike for everything. A few days in the park, an Enduro or two this next summer and the usual trails around the area.

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    Oh man, that look awesome, I'm having my Marino full suspension on progress , inspired by the Starling MurMur, can't wait.

  77. #77
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    What's it weigh as we're seeing it?!

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by scycllerist View Post
    What's it weigh as we're seeing it?!
    If you're concerned with the weight, a steel full suspension frame probably isn't for you.
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    If you're concerned with the weight, a steel full suspension frame probably isn't for you.
    Maybe, like I keep saying I'm spoiled with the EPO. However, steel FS isn't much heavier than AL and a FS is on the radar. I'm going to follow this thread through and figure it out from there. I'd love to support Ferrum and may just do that, don't know yet.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by scycllerist View Post
    Maybe, like I keep saying I'm spoiled with the EPO. However, steel FS isn't much heavier than AL and a FS is on the radar. I'm going to follow this thread through and figure it out from there. I'd love to support Ferrum and may just do that, don't know yet.
    It's rad. Don't weigh rad.
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    It's rad. Don't weigh rad.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to *OneSpeed* again.
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  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    It's rad. Don't weigh rad.
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to *OneSpeed* again.
    Signature worthy.
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  83. #83
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    Very nice! Looking forward to seeing it built and ridden.

    I believe it weighs right at awesome.
    This post is a natural product. Variances in spelling & grammar should be appreciated as part of its character & beauty.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by scycllerist View Post
    What's it weigh as we're seeing it?!
    With the shock, bottom bracket and rear axel it's 10.4 lbs. (incorrectly stated this prior to editing) I think built up will be around 37. No carbon anything and all cheaper components to get rolling. About what all of the bikes I have had in the past have weighed between 34-37 lbs and have no problem pushing them around. So it will be at the top end of weight but not running tubeless if that makes much of a difference.
    Last edited by rherman; 12-03-2019 at 01:51 PM.

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    Steel Full Suspension Bikes-img_20191206_150653.jpg
    Steel Full Suspension Bikes-img_20191206_162623_514.jpg

    Well got it out on a snowy ride and it feels so good. Unfortunately it was on a road a short single track due to time limitations. I am hoping that I can get out this weekend if time permits for a proper ride. One of my usual quick loops, connector and Rocky screech in the Crawford riding area in Kelowna.

    It's one that I know quite well and will be able to get a good feel coming off an older giant reign x 26er.

    Built it up on as much of a budget as possible as I originally wasn't planing on buying a whole new frame set from Ferrum but it was too good of a deal. So the rest of the parts are about as budget as you can get. Had to pretty mich beg, borrow and steal parts off the old bike to get it completed. But it rides super nice and can't wait to get it out on a proper trail.

    Weight as it stands is 37 lbs of steel and AL goodness

  86. #86
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    An interview/podcast with Starling Cycles.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqxeTlno6Uo

    (the first 12-14 minutes is a little OT and slow, gets better after that)
    Rigid SS 29er
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  87. #87
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    Steel bike are heavy. Cool story bro.

    Steel Full Suspension Bikes-20200104_202332.jpg
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    I'm satisfied knowing that what I wear during my "day" job makes me more of a man than you'll ever be.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zerort View Post
    Steel bike are heavy. Cool story bro.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    You set a bad example. You've ruined the myth that steel bikes are heavy. Clearly your scale is broken.

    At least it looks sweet though. Nice build!
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    You set a bad example. You've ruined the myth that steel bikes are heavy. Clearly your scale is broken.

    At least it looks sweet though. Nice build!
    Thanks.
    by Silentfoe
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    I've had 2 single pivot Ellsworth Jokers since 2000. I've always loved the ride and the pedaling efficiency. The 2000 frame, a medium, cracked at the TT/ST junction, which I realized was using an awful lot to the Thomsen 400 mm seat post on, that undeniably was putting too much tension on that part of the frame.

    Tony E. was very good with me.....he coulda denied the warranty claim based upon me ordering a frame a size too small for me; I'm 6' tall have a 32" inseam, and weighed 200#, the long legs making the need for so much hence the need for so much post. But
    instead, he sent me a size L frame, with a special cnc'd shock attachment I could just bolt to the to mount of my shock, and thus keep it the 6" travel bike I was used to. Eventually, I opted for taking it off, and swapping the RP23 for a Man. 3-way swinger, the
    air version. This made the frame a 175mm travel one, that retained it's climbing and pedaling performance at the same level that blew my buds away on long FR climbs. I slipped a 170 mm Lyric to replace the old 'Zoke 250 mm fork, and on the DH it was like a new bike.
    My rambling, pseudo point here is that I'd love to see somebody try to replicate my size L frame in steel, and check out it's ride.
    I've also been thinking about taking the existing Joker frame and turn it into a 69er, but the issue of a straight HT on my frame seems to be a solid block to that idea.
    At any rate I love the ride of this existing Joker too much to dread ever losing it. It's one 26er that never even got close to no "ash-heap of history".

    I'm sure someone here has got something to say about it. Whaddya think? I think that however maligned, Tony came with the perfect single pivot placement for this bike.
    It's sturdy, stiff, and somehow, under 30 lb#s.

    Whaddya think that might be with the same build/components, in steel? I loves me that steel, too.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zerort View Post
    Steel bike are heavy. Cool story bro.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Very Nice!! Please share the details!!

    Thanks

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by scycllerist View Post
    Very Nice!! Please share the details!!

    Thanks

    Size Large Cotic Flaremax 29er
    Fox 34SC
    Carbon post, bars
    Wren stem
    Manitou Mcleod rear shock
    Selle Italia carbon rail saddle
    EE Wings crank with Look pedals
    Nox Skyline wheels with 321 hubs
    AliExpress 12 speed cassette
    AXS shifter and derailleur
    Specialized Body Geometry grips
    Wolftooth oval 34T
    Hope seatpost clamp and headset
    Schwalbe Rocket Ron rear, Racing Ray front tire
    Sram G2 4 piston brakes

    Obviously no dropper so that adds a pound, and add some beefy tires like DHF and DHR II would be another 2 pounds, but it would still be under 30 pounds at that.

    Even with a 130-140 Pike you would probably be right on 30 pounds even which is only about 1 pound heavier than a decent trail bike.

    So anyone that says steel is heavy is full of it.
    by Silentfoe
    I'm satisfied knowing that what I wear during my "day" job makes me more of a man than you'll ever be.

  93. #93
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    The only weight that matters for comparison purposes is frame weight. If two frames are 1lb different the builds will end up 1lb different if you use the same parts.

    The quality steel FS frames I've looked at weigh about 1lb more than the comparable AL bike I ride. A comparable carbon frame is ~2lbs lighter than the steel frames. Does 1-2lbs really matter in terms of frame weight? In general I'd say no. The ride quality and material characteristics of a metal frame would be worth 1-2lbs extra weight to me.

    That said there are examples of each type of frame where some poor engineering was done and they weigh a couple pounds more than other frames of the same type. Would I buy a steel frame that was 4-5lbs more than a carbon frame? Probably not. I'd buy one of the better engineered steel frames that was ~2lbs heavier than carbon and reward the company that put the effort in to make an efficient design.

    Since bicycles are human powered you can't add endless amounts of weight without having an impact on performance, but if you are talking differences of 1-2lbs of non-rotational weight than I can't see how it matters. Beyond MTBR/parking lot bragging rights.
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  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    The only weight that matters for comparison purposes is frame weight. If two frames are 1lb different the builds will end up 1lb different if you use the same parts.

    The quality steel FS frames I've looked at weigh about 1lb more than the comparable AL bike I ride. A comparable carbon frame is ~2lbs lighter than the steel frames. Does 1-2lbs really matter in terms of frame weight? In general I'd say no. The ride quality and material characteristics of a metal frame would be worth 1-2lbs extra weight to me.

    That said there are examples of each type of frame where some poor engineering was done and they weigh a couple pounds more than other frames of the same type. Would I buy a steel frame that was 4-5lbs more than a carbon frame? Probably not. I'd buy one of the better engineered steel frames that was ~2lbs heavier than carbon and reward the company that put the effort in to make an efficient design.

    Since bicycles are human powered you can't add endless amounts of weight without having an impact on performance, but if you are talking differences of 1-2lbs of non-rotational weight than I can't see how it matters. Beyond MTBR/parking lot bragging rights.
    Like I said above. 1 pound difference
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  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post

    That said there are examples of each type of frame where some poor engineering was done and they weigh a couple pounds more than other frames of the same type. Would I buy a steel frame that was 4-5lbs more than a carbon frame? Probably not. I'd buy one of the better engineered steel frames that was ~2lbs heavier than carbon and reward the company that put the effort in to make an efficient design.
    Back in the 90s, the poor engineering went the other way as well. They were able to come up with steel hardtail frames around 3.9, 3.8lbs maybe close to 3.5, but they were unacceptably noodly and the tubing too thin. You don't see anyone going as extreme anymore. So while they could get the weight down, there were compromises. One of the benefits of a steel bike should be lots of lateral stiffness, but you can't build it like a toothpick (even if it looks like a toothpick because steel tubing is stiffer and stronger in smaller sizes).
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    The only weight that matters for comparison purposes is frame weight. If two frames are 1lb different the builds will end up 1lb different if you use the same parts.

    The quality steel FS frames I've looked at weigh about 1lb more than the comparable AL bike I ride. A comparable carbon frame is ~2lbs lighter than the steel frames. Does 1-2lbs really matter in terms of frame weight? In general I'd say no. The ride quality and material characteristics of a metal frame would be worth 1-2lbs extra weight to me.

    That said there are examples of each type of frame where some poor engineering was done and they weigh a couple pounds more than other frames of the same type. Would I buy a steel frame that was 4-5lbs more than a carbon frame? Probably not. I'd buy one of the better engineered steel frames that was ~2lbs heavier than carbon and reward the company that put the effort in to make an efficient design.

    Since bicycles are human powered you can't add endless amounts of weight without having an impact on performance, but if you are talking differences of 1-2lbs of non-rotational weight than I can't see how it matters. Beyond MTBR/parking lot bragging rights.
    All good points. That leaves the suspension differences. I don't know if there are any single pivot kick back concerns. I know it can be engineer out with sprocket at the pivot but that adds some complexity. It's a shame it's so hard to do more test rides.

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    any marino steel fs owners here? just placed an order of a custom geo one and although I looked around not much info on the net, went for it any way as when contact them they were pretty good to work with and straight forward on what they offer

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by rherman View Post
    With the shock, bottom bracket and rear axel it's 10.4 lbs. (incorrectly stated this prior to editing) I think built up will be around 37. No carbon anything and all cheaper components to get rolling. About what all of the bikes I have had in the past have weighed between 34-37 lbs and have no problem pushing them around. So it will be at the top end of weight but not running tubeless if that makes much of a difference.
    So about the same an an Aluminum Transition Sentinel... maybe a touch heavier?

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herdwick View Post
    any marino steel fs owners here? just placed an order of a custom geo one and although I looked around not much info on the net, went for it any way as when contact them they were pretty good to work with and straight forward on what they offer
    it's interesting how you order a frame from marino - not by size, but by dimensions. pretty much guarantees custom fit if true. $550 for a FS frame? did i read that right?
    You just can't beat the person who never gives up. - B.Ruth

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    Probably pretty close. Maybe still a bit heavier than the Sentinel. Ill have to do a final check on the weight now that it is finally built up and ready to ride. Its just too bad its been dumping snow here the last few weeks. Im itching for a proper ride so I can put up a solid review of the bike.

    As for the comments on Marino, my tenant ended up going that route due to the price and a bit of the flexibility. Ill put up some comparisons of the build between the two frame makers once it arrives. I almost went with a Marino but the build kit with Ferrum was pretty much going to end up almost the same as a Marino frame and buying all new parts that came with the kit. I know I could go used but I like the full warranty for the expensive bits and the lifetime warranty for the frame.

    Ill post more once I actually get a chance to ride and even compare both frame builds.

  101. #101
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    starts at 550 depending on what you add, like internal cable routing, sliding dropouts, internal rear brake and shifter routing etc, but yes the custom geo/size is what made up my mind.
    I hope works out good, fingers crossed !

  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by rherman View Post
    Probably pretty close. Maybe still a bit heavier than the Sentinel. Ill have to do a final check on the weight now that it is finally built up and ready to ride. Its just too bad its been dumping snow here the last few weeks. Im itching for a proper ride so I can put up a solid review of the bike.

    As for the comments on Marino, my tenant ended up going that route due to the price and a bit of the flexibility. Ill put up some comparisons of the build between the two frame makers once it arrives. I almost went with a Marino but the build kit with Ferrum was pretty much going to end up almost the same as a Marino frame and buying all new parts that came with the kit. I know I could go used but I like the full warranty for the expensive bits and the lifetime warranty for the frame.

    Ill post more once I actually get a chance to ride and even compare both frame builds.

    it would be interesting to see both compared!

  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herdwick View Post
    it would be interesting to see both compared!
    Indeed! If it's a good/detailed comparison it may even deserve its own thread, But make sure you (rherman) at least post a link here.
    Rigid SS 29er
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  104. #104
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    the ferrum looks really nice.
    You just can't beat the person who never gives up. - B.Ruth

  105. #105
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    Good article. The frame builders discuss the benefits of building with steel.

    https://www.singletracks.com/mtb-gea...n-bike-frames/
    Rigid SS 29er
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    Good article. The frame builders discuss the benefits of building with steel.

    https://www.singletracks.com/mtb-gea...n-bike-frames/


    That Project 12 Vertigo is hot. I won't be surprised if I buy one. They won't sell to the US/Canada for liability reasons under their current insurance so I'd have to go to the EU for a holiday and come home with a frame. Sounds like a reasonable plan.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  107. #107
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    The gullible go flocking to the new thing bicycle companies are putting out there.
    They have the money to waste.


    Quote Originally Posted by eshew View Post
    I'd say go for it, historically speaking I'm reluctant to try anything new... it may also be because I'm incredibly cheap.

    I agree with you from the rust standpoint, sure you may get some surface rust, but certainly not destructive in terms of weakness.

  108. #108
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    Huh? I don't think using steel for bikes is a new thing...
    The revolution starts now
    When you rise above your fear
    And tear the walls around you down
    The revolution starts here

  109. #109
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    Very nice looking bikes. Makes me want to be a stronger rider so I could justify one. Up coming medical issues have me sticking with my light tight hardtail.

  110. #110
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    This to share my new Vertigo by Dutch Fabricator Project12 Cycleworks mentioned above
    https://projectxii.nl/en/.

    Mock-up on frame ready for paint


    A few months ago I was pondering a new 100mm XC frame for 2020; Santa Cruz Tallboy, Yeti SB100 and the likes. In an online discussion topic Michiel of Project12 Cycleworks suggested why not custom steel? Love for steel all right, but that does not make a competent XC bike. And mind you, this is to be my Go-To every Sunday weekend-warrior-50km-ride-with-my-mates bike.

    So I tested the green prototype Project12 Vertigo shown in the pictures in this thread, and another Vertigo owned by Lars a former bikemagazine test editor, a size Large XC oriented Vertigo in 29”. And we talked bikes over a coffee, and another coffee.

    Both bikes ride really well, I will say remarkably well for a small builder. Turns out some really savvy Dutch bike designers supported the development, and did good. The 27,5” bike with real trail tires mounted and a sturdy parts spec never “felt” sluggish. And the 29” XC bike was outright fast, Strava medals fast. And not unimportantly, both bikes were mechanically solid and quiet. No creaks, no bolts loose, no play in the pivots. That’s an achievement, and thus the Vertigo became a contender.

    So we exchanged ideas and drawings, fired Q&A over WhatsApp and landed on a design. Plus we developed a good understanding, so I confirmed the order and Vertigo Project 12.023 was GO, the tubes could be ordered.



    With the Project12 signature dropouts


    This is another area where Michiel earned my respect. I gave him a spec sheet: 100mm travel, Boost spacing, 29x2.4 and 27.5 x 2.8-3.0 tires to fit and a single 36t chainring on the crank. With sound engineering and creativity he consolidated it all in a new Yoke design in his Vertigo concept.



    The concept centers around the spine that is the seat tube and bottom bracket cluster. It contains all hardpoints for the rear suspension pivots and damper mounts. And in the useable seat angle range a full custom geometry can be spec’ed by the client. And it works, giving an array of options. What is left to do is “just” to express the client fitting and build requirements in steel. And that takes a combination of communication, creativity and craftsmanship.

    And this is the product, a vision in steel


    It has been really special to see Michiel craft this frame step by step. The expression of a vision in steel that began as a concept on a napkin over a coffee. Every detail what is on the frame or not on the frame for that matter has been thought through to make a conscious choice. With the frame now being prepped for paint waiting for it to be ready is getting nigh-on impossible to do.

    The pictures are of a mock-up with some choice parts to give an idea of the bigger picture,

    Enjoy!!

    Last edited by Lenz43; 05-05-2020 at 01:00 AM.
    Common sense was never common

  111. #111
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    ^ that is SWEEEET! Congrats!

    I've seen this thing on Instagram for the last week, so cool! I want one!
    Rigid SS 29er
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  112. #112
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    Yes. That's a beauty for sure.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  113. #113
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    Beautiful bike!!

  114. #114
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    Alright, I'll bite.

    Here's my 2017 Daambuilt. Peter Daam builds bikes out of Montreal, Canada (Formerly of North Van). Mine's I think the longest travel bike he's done, most are hard tails or trail-ish. He's done some pretty wild stuff but most of the full-sus bikes seem to be developing somewhat of a signature look.

    Peter is an engineer by trade and was awesome throughout the design process of this bike. Rolling in to the year 2020, there's a few things I'd change about it, but when you also consider what else was around in 2017, I think we were pretty on point with most of our geo and Peter did a great job designing the suspension.


    Steel Full Suspension Bikes-db4.jpgSteel Full Suspension Bikes-db2.jpg

  115. #115
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    Just found this via the Formula instagram account, high pivot goodness.






    https://youtu.be/3HT-BYRyjFU
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Steel Full Suspension Bikes-screen-shot-2020-04-06-11.14.10-pm.jpg  

    Steel Full Suspension Bikes-screen-shot-2020-04-06-11.22.27-pm.jpg  


  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by shapethings View Post
    Just found this via the Formula instagram account, high pivot goodness.






    https://youtu.be/3HT-BYRyjFU
    This or the Druid? Hmmmm
    by Silentfoe
    I'm satisfied knowing that what I wear during my "day" job makes me more of a man than you'll ever be.

  117. #117
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    Steel Full Suspension Bikes-pipe.png

    Pipedream is teasing their FS Full Moxie. The product page is PW protected, but I imagine the full release should be soon.

    https://www.pipedreamcycles.com/?v=3e8d115eb4b3
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  118. #118
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    I used to have a Pipedream Sirius. That bike was incredible.

    That bike was Reynolds 853. If you look closely at the seat tube, I don't think this one is. - Bummer

    When this one comes out, if it's not seriously heavy, it should be a contender.
    by Silentfoe
    I'm satisfied knowing that what I wear during my "day" job makes me more of a man than you'll ever be.

  119. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post

    Pipedream is teasing their FS Full Moxie. The product page is PW protected, but I imagine the full release should be soon.

    https://www.pipedreamcycles.com/?v=3e8d115eb4b3
    —edited—

    out now…

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Steel Full Suspension Bikes-p5pb18485327.jpg  

    Last edited by shapethings; 04-08-2020 at 12:49 AM.

  120. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by shapethings View Post
    Looks like they're using all-mountain style protective frame guard with the honeycomb pattern in that photo. Anyone use it?

    I have used:

    - Shelter Tape
    - AMS frame protection
    - various clear protection tapes [ie. Bike Armor]

    I'd rank them in that order for protection.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zerort View Post
    This or the Druid? Hmmmm
    If I were to buy a carbon bike, Druid would probably be it. But that AC TO 5 bike (without knowing anything about it, ride characteristics etc) is pretty amazing looking.

  122. #122
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    already posted this bike in the Twist thread, haven't taken legit glamour shots yet, but here is my Starling.

    First photo the bike is angled slightly, so the mullet looks more extreme than what it really is.

    Steel Full Suspension Bikes-img_3314.jpg
    Steel Full Suspension Bikes-img_3684-curves.jpg

  123. #123
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    Cotic FlareMAX. They ship to US for free.

  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by eshew View Post
    rust
    Think of rust as.....

    Anti Theft Measures

  125. #125
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    The Full Moxie. Great lookin' frame!

    Steel Full Suspension Bikes-full-moxie.jpg

    https://www.pipedreamcycles.com/shop...v=7516fd43adaa

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/pipedr...ull-moxie.html

    Doesn't come in XL, bummer. Also I find it extremely irritating that the PB article specifically mentions the sweet head badge but neglected to show it in any pictures. So I went to the Moxie website, again no pictures of the head badge. What's a guy gotta do to get a peek at a head badge??
    Rigid SS 29er
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  126. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    The Full Moxie. Great lookin' frame!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    https://www.pipedreamcycles.com/shop...v=7516fd43adaa

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/pipedr...ull-moxie.html

    Doesn't come in XL, bummer. Also I find it extremely irritating that the PB article specifically mentions the sweet head badge but neglected to show it in any pictures. So I went to the Moxie website, again no pictures of the head badge. What's a guy gotta do to get a peek at a head badge??
    Pipe Dream has only long and longer sizes. Users rely on the seat post for height. Longer has a 510 reach.

    Looks like they finished a batch and are shipping soon. US buyers can have it shipped directly and save costs.

  127. #127
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    Well it looks like Ferrum has come out with a new short travel bike (125mm rear/ 130-150 fork). https://ferrumbikes.com/product/mv-1...ion-mtb-frame/

    This has got my full attention. One of the few shorter travel options I've seen. I want more details!

    Steel Full Suspension Bikes-mv125.jpg
    Rigid SS 29er
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    Full Sus 29er (Yuck)

    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  128. #128
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    Had my Murmur for a year now, Its got adjustable shock mounts so im running a little shorter travel as my "trail" bike.

    I bought it almost purely out of curiosity, theres no lack of shreddy short travel bikes out there but i've always wondered what a steel full suspension would ride like. I've run it with one set of carbon wheels with no inserts, light but stiill grippy tires, and another set of aluminum wheels with cush cores and an assegai/aggressor combo. with the light tires, its a FAST bike, pedals ridiculously well. it just doesnt have the tire grip to match what the frames capable of so i've spent more time on the burly setup.

    The grip and ground tracking they talk about with a steel bike is definitely a thing, I dont think i've ridden a bike that does better in off camber and flat corners. my biggest frustration with it, and i'm still not sure what the cause is, is suddenly losing the front end on fast, rough corners. Had some really big falls, and plenty of sketchy moments. I'll have the bike leaned over in a fast corner, hit a couple rocks that im used to being able to handle on my other bike, and the front end seems to ping off and completely lose any traction. all my bikes before this were 160 f/r travel, and this only has a 140 front, so im wondering if its more the fork, or if this flex in the frame on those big hits with the bike leaned is causing the front to flex out of the way, rather than say a stiff carbon bike keeps forcing the front tire into the ground? It does it on both wheelsets, surprisingly almost less with the carbon.

    anyway, dont want to knock the frame because theres a good chance that im just expecting to be able to hit these corners on my 140 fork at the same speed i hit them with a 160, and i probably shouldnt be, im just surprised it happens as much as it does.

  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    Well it looks like Ferrum has come out with a new short travel bike (125mm rear/ 130-150 fork). https://ferrumbikes.com/product/mv-1...ion-mtb-frame/

    This has got my full attention. One of the few shorter travel options I've seen. I want more details!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Yup, darn close to nailing it. Or should I say....

  130. #130
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    Project12 Cycleworks Vertigo

    My Project12 Vertigo is back from paint

    Enjoy!!

    Steel Full Suspension Bikes-p4pb18640783.jpg
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  131. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenz43 View Post
    My Project12 Vertigo is back from paint

    Enjoy!!
    Damn...she's nice.
    Safe riding,

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  132. #132
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    All of these English steel FS bikes look really nice. The biggest factor holding me back is North American support. Cotic is doing some cool stuff with the RocketMax and FlareMax, but the chainstays are a bit long for my taste, so it would be nice to ride one first. They do offer a return policy if you're not satisfied, but I would feel like a dick returning it knowing that I may not like it going in.

  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan View Post
    All of these English steel FS bikes look really nice. The biggest factor holding me back is North American support.
    There is not much to go wrong with a steel single pivot bike. I get stuff from the UK in the mail to Canada in a week so not particularly terrible wait for a small part. I have considered the Cotic RocketMAX as I rode with a guy here who had one and it looked great. If I ordered one I'd get a spare derailleur hanger and a spare set of bearings when I had the bike shipped to me since those are the two items I'll need at some point.
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  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenz43 View Post
    My Project12 Vertigo is back from paint

    Enjoy!!
    wow that thing is cool
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  135. #135
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    I've had my Murmur for a couple of months now. I'm running a CC Coil IL shock with progressive spring with 145mm travel and a 160mm Lyrik fork up front.

    Totally agree with the "grip like velcro" feeling on corners and over the rough stuff. I've had many carbon and alloy bikes, and it does feel uniquely planted. This has its disadvantages when trying to get up climbs quickly though, and I've just got used to the idea of "getting there when I get there" rather than pushing it harder to get up climbs quicker. I'm not having any of the problems mentioned with losing the front end on corners, so maybe try out a 150 or 160mm travel fork. BTW - I'm also running a 35mm stem and 800mm wide handlebar.

    I'm also riding my 29er alloy Lenz Behemoth with CC IL Coil shock with 125mm travel a lot. Shorter travel and shorter chainstays make it feel incredibly snappy and nimble in comparison, but does feel sketchier on rooty sections and steeper downhills than the Murmur.

    DrChris

    Quote Originally Posted by mrsa101 View Post
    Had my Murmur for a year now, Its got adjustable shock mounts so im running a little shorter travel as my "trail" bike.

    I bought it almost purely out of curiosity, theres no lack of shreddy short travel bikes out there but i've always wondered what a steel full suspension would ride like. I've run it with one set of carbon wheels with no inserts, light but stiill grippy tires, and another set of aluminum wheels with cush cores and an assegai/aggressor combo. with the light tires, its a FAST bike, pedals ridiculously well. it just doesnt have the tire grip to match what the frames capable of so i've spent more time on the burly setup.

    The grip and ground tracking they talk about with a steel bike is definitely a thing, I dont think i've ridden a bike that does better in off camber and flat corners. my biggest frustration with it, and i'm still not sure what the cause is, is suddenly losing the front end on fast, rough corners. Had some really big falls, and plenty of sketchy moments. I'll have the bike leaned over in a fast corner, hit a couple rocks that im used to being able to handle on my other bike, and the front end seems to ping off and completely lose any traction. all my bikes before this were 160 f/r travel, and this only has a 140 front, so im wondering if its more the fork, or if this flex in the frame on those big hits with the bike leaned is causing the front to flex out of the way, rather than say a stiff carbon bike keeps forcing the front tire into the ground? It does it on both wheelsets, surprisingly almost less with the carbon.

    anyway, dont want to knock the frame because theres a good chance that im just expecting to be able to hit these corners on my 140 fork at the same speed i hit them with a 160, and i probably shouldnt be, im just surprised it happens as much as it does.
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  136. #136
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    Cool-blue Rhythm Project12 Cycleworks Vertigo Build pics

    The Vertigo is almost GO

    Thanks to Michiel of Project12 Cycleworks who also deserves credit for the pictures and Lion of Cyclepapint Goes for the Artwork. (Both in the Netherlands)

    Full build as pictured including pedals and 2.4"tires on 30mm rims weighs in at 28 lbs or 12.6 kg. That will do me fine. But no shakedown ride just yet, front brake needs tweaking a bit to fit the RS-1.

    Enjoy!!









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  137. #137
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    Anyone here have any experience with Marino Bikes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrpercussive View Post
    Anyone here have any experience with Marino Bikes?
    I've seen a couple threads on them, not sure about the full suspension stuff though?

    https://forums.mtbr.com/bike-frame-d...e-1115251.html

    https://forums.mtbr.com/26-27-5-29-p...e-1122687.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan View Post
    All of these English steel FS bikes look really nice. The biggest factor holding me back is North American support. Cotic is doing some cool stuff with the RocketMax and FlareMax, but the chainstays are a bit long for my taste, so it would be nice to ride one first. They do offer a return policy if you're not satisfied, but I would feel like a dick returning it knowing that I may not like it going in.
    Riders on the other side of the pond seem to like a longer chain stay. Maybe their trail systems are not as tight as in central PA. GMBN shows more open systems.

  140. #140
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    Marino full sus frame I had came with poor alignment and rear swingarm flex. Pivot bearings toast in 600 miles. The cross brace had its threads stripped, which I suspect was due to flex. I fear for the health of my rear shock. It was basically like a taste of a Murmur.

    Good for geo experimentation I guess. If I try Marino again, I'd stick to HTs. You get what you pay for.

    Here's a new one from Swarf. Seems longer travel than the Contour (green frame in attached pic), with comically extended top/downtubes and a little bend in the downtube by the lower shock mount. I think the beefier stays might be an experimental thing. Was named Vortex in proto stage, but it was trademarked. Longer seat post insertion too.

    Specs: 29” wheels, 155mm rear travel, 160mm fork, 77degree seat angle, 63.5 head angle, threaded BB, external cable routing, metric trunnion shock, air or coil.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Steel Full Suspension Bikes-swarfvortexproto.jpg  

    Steel Full Suspension Bikes-swarfcontour.jpg  

    Steel Full Suspension Bikes-swarfvortexproto2.jpg  

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  141. #141
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    Interesting that they are using flex stays instead of a rear pivot.

    People on PB were lampooning a carbon Enduro frame that used that design last week. Pretty common on XC race bikes (Orbea, Spec, Cannondale, Scott, and plenty of others) but not really used for longer travel applications.
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  142. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Interesting that they are using flex stays instead of a rear pivot.

    People on PB were lampooning a carbon Enduro frame that used that design last week. Pretty common on XC race bikes (Orbea, Spec, Cannondale, Scott, and plenty of others) but not really used for longer travel applications.
    In this video, he shows how little resistance that flex stay has.

    https://videos.mtb-news.de/52987/ihr...ten_last_tarvo
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  143. #143
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    That Swarf looks nice. Too bad they won't sell bikes to Canada or the USA.
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  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Interesting that they are using flex stays instead of a rear pivot.

    People on PB were lampooning a carbon Enduro frame that used that design last week. Pretty common on XC race bikes (Orbea, Spec, Cannondale, Scott, and plenty of others) but not really used for longer travel applications.
    I agree it seems less common on longer travel bikes.

    My carbon Hei Hei uses flex stays. They don't move much when you cycle the rear end. I think there's plenty of flexibility in both steel and carbon to handle it (assuming proper engineering).
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  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Marino full sus frame I had came with poor alignment and rear swingarm flex. Pivot bearings toast in 600 miles. The cross brace had its threads stripped, which I suspect was due to flex. I fear for the health of my rear shock. It was basically like a taste of a Murmur.

    Good for geo experimentation I guess. If I try Marino again, I'd stick to HTs. You get what you pay for.
    Rad thanks! What about Majin? I remember them from a decade ago... seems like they're coming back?

  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrpercussive View Post
    Anyone here have any experience with Marino Bikes?
    I just emailed pipedream to see what the non-Vat cost of the full moxie is, I think that would be the ticket.

    Also posted above: Ferrum bikes out of Las Vegas have some good prices for US made.

  147. #147
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    Actofive article on Pinkbike today, that thing is a beauty.

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/the-ge...trailbike.html

  148. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by shapethings View Post
    I just emailed pipedream to see what the non-Vat cost of the full moxie is, I think that would be the ticket.

    Also posted above: Ferrum bikes out of Las Vegas have some good prices for US made.
    those Ferrum frames look pretty sick! The pipedream geo might be a little too long for me...

  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrpercussive View Post
    those Ferrum frames look pretty sick! The pipedream geo might be a little too long for me...
    Full Moxie geo seems on par with Enduro 2020, Sentinel V2...

    The smaller of the two sizes is an incremental step longer than the current mainstream bikes, which run about 435mm CS, 1230mm WB, 76 STA and 460-470mm reach.
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

  150. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrpercussive View Post
    those Ferrum frames look pretty sick! The pipedream geo might be a little too long for me...
    I recently built up my Starling and was sketched on how long the large was. But Joe @Starling convinced me that is the way to go and it actually feels great. I'm 5'10.5" for reference if that helps.

    "Long" Pipedream: Effective TT 604mm; Reach 470mm
    L Starling Twist: Effective TT 628mm; Reach 485mm


    The Ferrum build kits seem pretty reasonable.

  151. #151
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    Name:  1331605d1589120712t-steel-full-suspension-bikes-swarfvortexproto2.jpg
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    Is that a brake brace on the drive side? That will hit the chain...

    Also concerned about the braces being stress risers on the pivotless design.
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  152. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrpercussive View Post
    those Ferrum frames look pretty sick! The pipedream geo might be a little too long for me...
    Can confirm the Ferrum bikes are amazing. I came from an older Reign X 26er and love the big wheels and updated geo. I have had some decent rides on it but not as much as I was hoping due to family time and home projects. I also sold the bike before I could get out to do back to back laps between the Giant and Ferrum to get a good feel of the differences.

    I can say of all of the bikes I have owned, borrowed or rented, I am now a believer of steel is real. There is something about the compliance of the frame tracking over rough bits that adds something to the ride that just makes it feel different. As mentioned before Ferrum was great to deal with and I am super happy with the frame. I cant wait until the BP is open so I can really push it and see how it handles some bigger stuff.

    As for Marino, my tenant ended up going that route and had a pretty good experience. The lead time was much longer and communication was a little slower but in the end his bike looks similar to mine but completely custom designed. As for a comparison, Marino painted the frame as opposed power coating that Ferrum provided. One other note is that my tenant is a larger guy, in the 250Lb range and ended up cracking his frame. Looks like there was an area that Marino didnt fully weld and it seems some water got in there and maybe caused some rust to form and allow it to crack. But to Marinos' credit he will be sending off a new replacement frame once he catches up in orders and said to just get that spot cleaned up and welded so he can still ride the bike. Ill see if he can post some pictures over on PB. For anyone interested on Ferrum I have added some additional photos and that on the Ferrum thread over there as well.

    Sorry for the longer post but just wanted to share some info. If anyone has any questions about either the Marino or Ferrum shoot me a message. I can get some responses for Marino questions from my tenant and answer any on the Ferrum.

    R

  153. #153
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    Hey guys,
    I am Gilles from France and i went there to ask rherman a few questions ( and thanks again for answers ) about Ferrumbike.
    In France we have a big MTB forum with a thread about Steel Frame.
    Some of them aren't in your thread so if you want you can take a look there for some new steel frames.
    here is the link: Les aciers ludiques suspendus- Page 43 - Velo Vert : le VTT, tout le VTT
    See you

  154. #154
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    I've been emailing with the guys at Cotic about the RocketMax. They have been very responsive and helpful. I'm close to pulling the trigger on a RocketMax with a Fox X2 shock, I just need to figure out sizing. I'm 5'9" and leaning toward the small. The medium frame size seems a bit large to me. Cotic is telling me the small will be fine, but the 15.7" seat tube is short. Any opinions on sizing?

  155. #155
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    I am 5'10" and would definitively go for a medium with a 40mm stem.
    In your case, i would go for a medium with 35mm stem.

  156. #156
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  157. #157
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    Super steel

    Wow how good are all these steel bikes. Love the Vertigo, looks amazing, but the Starlings and the Moxies, it is steel heaven.

    Steel Full Suspension Bikes-murmur-10.jpg

  158. #158
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    More Starling pics...



    Regarding being pinged off line with a 140mm fork, the bike is designed around a 150-160 fork, I wonder if that's the reason? Mine is really stable on corners, just reduced the Lyrik from 160 to 150 and have a CC DBair IL on the way.

  159. #159
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    Not a production bike but pretty cool frame. 3D printed lugs, polished stainless tubing, interesting stuff.

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/the-mo...exy-again.html

    Steel Full Suspension Bikes-stainless.jpg
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  160. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    This thread is intended to discuss what steel full suspension bikes are available. Not argue their validity.

    I don't think what I said was taunting, just asking a persistently negative and strongly opinionated person to move on to another thread instead of derailing and plugging up this conversation with a bunch of argumentative BS.
    It’s MTBR. Threads are gonna derail all the time.

    I’m kinda curious to how this goes. I rode a Pedalhead for a few rides, and if my body could handle the hardtail, I would have kept it. GG at one point did the pretty welds with it, but moved away from that a couple of years ago.

    Kinda interesting that steel has become a boutique thing, and I’m interested to see what full suspension designs come up.
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  161. #161
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    I'm surprised the Actofive bike didn't get more attention. That thing looks amazing!

  162. #162
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    Here’s a another US made one to add to the list. Hopefully they make it to production!

    https://singletrackworld.com/2020/06...ion-prototype/

  163. #163
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    Really loving this thread, I'm so glad to see the love for all the steel duallies!

    Wanted to post up some pics of the prototype I've been riding for about a month now. I've been planning this bike for years, and finally got enough of the design figured out and put the time aside to build it. I learned a ton from this first one, and the next proto will be even better. I plan to offer these as part of the Myth Cycles lineup soon, so hopefully you guys like the looks of it!

    Quick stats:
    Clearance for 29 x 2.6
    145/160mm travel
    65.5 HTA
    76 STA
    444 CS length
    355 BB height (in high mode)
    824 Front Center

    I did a writeup on this bike, so there's more info here:
    https://mythcycles.com/2020/06/21/pr...ion-prototype/



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  164. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erichimedes View Post
    https://mythcycles.com/2020/06/21/pr...ion-prototype/


    "There is a bit of extra room in the swingarm, and it gives me space to use a different way of preventing swingarm flex. One of the reasons I haven’t powder coated this bike is that I started out with less bracing in the swingarm, and I’ve been adding more in between rides to see how it affects flex. I still have one final piece of bracing to add to test the final design, but so far it’s already very stiff."
    That's really cool
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  165. #165
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    Good to see taller stacks on bikes too. Not sure why stacks dropped back down to 600mm, but the earlier E29 with 650mm stack felt pretty good to me at 5' 7". I think my ROS9 had a similar stack height too.
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Good to see taller stacks on bikes too. Not sure why stacks dropped back down to 600mm, but the earlier E29 with 650mm stack felt pretty good to me at 5' 7". I think my ROS9 had a similar stack height too.
    At 6'3 i disagree. We can get riser bars and leave some spacers on the steerer to bring the bars up, but you can't lower the bars beyond a certain point w/o something colliding with something else. Head tube should be as tall as it needs to be to build a sturdy front triangle, and no more.

    Raising the bars up like that interacts with the reach measurement, but Reach is stupid anyway.
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  167. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Good to see taller stacks on bikes too. Not sure why stacks dropped back down to 600mm, but the earlier E29 with 650mm stack felt pretty good to me at 5' 7". I think my ROS9 had a similar stack height too.
    I'm all for taller stack heights. I have 80mm rise bars and some spacers on one of my bikes. There are few bar shape options as you want higher rise which is not great.

    I'm 5'11" and my GF is after higher stack as well at 5'6" so we are not exactly giants.

    The stack on my custom bike is 665mm and if I was rebuilding that bike today I'd make it 680mm.
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  168. #168
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    Stack: I'm 6'3" and OK with a little more Stack height on bigger size frames. My last full suspension trail bike purchase has a Stack height of 625mm for size XL. It's just too short for that size and style of bike. Had to make some mods.

    I don't mind a race bike being set up aggressively with the handlebars 1.5" ish below the saddle, even for endurance racing, but on a Trail bike or a SS where I'm standing most of the time I appreciate more stack.

    I have multiple bikes with an uncut steer tube, none of which have the handlebars more than .5" above the saddle.

    We're way off topic but obviously there's a lot of variables and personal preference involved.
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  169. #169
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    It is a personal thing and depends a lot on where you ride. At 6'2" my custom Vertigo above has a 1,5" drop from seat to hands by design. And since the Vertigo pictures were taken I have changed the stem from 50mm to 60mm. With 60 it feels even more balanced, keeping the front end weighted through turns.

    My 2 trail bikes are close to even, a HT with 140mm fork and a suspension rig with 160mm fork respectively. YMMV
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  170. #170
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    Steel Full Suspension Bikes-alex-clauss-portus-cycles-1024x682.jpg

    Portus's steel version of Alutech's ICB 2.0 (internet community-designed bike)

    Doesn't look bad with the long head tube.
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