stans weld joint failure?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    stans weld joint failure?

    When I first started building wheels with their rims I noticed one of the welded seems had a crack in it. I called them up and asked for a replacement and they shot me down, said they had never had one of those cracks spread. Now with my welding background I know that cracks in metal always spread. I have yet to see a rim fail at the joint but I just have to think that it happens from time to time, any body had one split at the seem?

  2. #2
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    Just curious, do you have a picture of the SEAM weld crack?

  3. #3
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    I don't but I do have a customer that has one with it, I'll pull the tire off next time the bike is in and get one.

    The crack propagates out from a severe crater in the well of the rim. Any weld shop I've worked in would have rejected that no questions. The guys at stans claimed that since the rims are heat treated that it wouldn't spread. I don't have any evidence to prove them wrong but it just goes against everything I've been taught to think that crack won't spread, especially in something that is as dynamic as a bicycle rim.

  4. #4
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    Does it looks something like this?




  5. #5
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    Hey all. I too had a crack on the seam.

    see attached pic. in the pixelated image i blew up- you can see the seam pretty clearly....broke straight across.

    i dont remember if they replaced. i think they did. Stans said they had never seen that before....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails stans weld joint failure?-weld-2.png  

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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by customfab
    When I first started building wheels with their rims I noticed one of the welded seems had a crack in it. I called them up and asked for a replacement and they shot me down, said they had never had one of those cracks spread. Now with my welding background I know that cracks in metal always spread. I have yet to see a rim fail at the joint but I just have to think that it happens from time to time, any body had one split at the seem?
    So this was a brand new rim you started building with? They would not warranty a new rim that has a crack in it because they state the crack won't spread? Am I correct in assuming it's a new rim? Please clarify on the age/use of the rim..

    If it is new...
    1)...that's 100% *****ty.
    2)...that's total BS. Heat treating does not stop cracks...has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. I'm no expert by any means, but heat treating hardens a metal. In a very small nut shell...that means that it will be more prone to cracking instead of bending/stretching.
    3)...even if for some strange reason I'm wrong with my #2 statement...it's cracked...it's broken.

    If this is not a warranty concern for them (still assuming a new product) then I don't know what they would ever warranty...


    However...now to possibly play devil's advocate...

    Still assuming it's new...how far did you get building the wheels before noticing the crack? I have had multiple wheel builders tell me about the lower spoke tension threshold on notubes/stans/ztr (wtf are they called anyway?) rims. Could you have over tensioned them, thus causing the crack?

  7. #7
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    If it were my rim, I'd want it replaced. Notubes can be a bit crappy with this sort of thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by gearwhine
    If it is new...
    1)...that's 100% *****ty.
    agreed
    Quote Originally Posted by gearwhine
    2)...that's total BS. Heat treating does not stop cracks...has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. I'm no expert by any means, but heat treating hardens a metal. In a very small nut shell...that means that it will be more prone to cracking instead of bending/stretching.
    This is not true in general. There are different heat treatments for different things, the most common of which in post-production fab of structural metal parts is annealing to reduce hardness imposed by cold work.
    Aluminum rims are annealed to stress relieve the weld. There is no hardness gain from the process.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather
    agreed

    This is not true in general. There are different heat treatments for different things, the most common of which in post-production fab of structural metal parts is annealing to reduce hardness imposed by cold work.
    Aluminum rims are annealed to stress relieve the weld. There is no hardness gain from the process.
    I'd say 90%+ of the time when a manufacturer says heat treated...they mean to harden the material. I don't think of annealing in that regard (and I have 0% with aluminum, so my mistake on should've knowing they anneal the rim). When I hear anneal, I think anneal. When I hear "heat treat" I don't think "anneal"...ever.

    I know when we (being me and my hack job friends) weld 4130 with mig (which is stupid to begin with) we "anneal" it...not "heat treat" it. It's like calling a square a rectangle...it's true...but why would you?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by gearwhine
    I'd say 90%+ of the time when a manufacturer says heat treated...they mean to harden the material. I don't think of annealing in that regard (and I have 0% with aluminum, so my mistake on should've knowing they anneal the rim). When I hear anneal, I think anneal. When I hear "heat treat" I don't think "anneal"...ever.
    Weird... annealing to reduce hardness imposed by cold work and stress relieve welds are by far the two most common types of heat treatment I'm familiar with.
    Quote Originally Posted by gearwhine
    I know when we (being me and my hack job friends) weld 4130 with mig (which is stupid to begin with) we "anneal" it...not "heat treat" it. It's like calling a square a rectangle...it's true...but why would you?
    Annealing is a heat treatment, at least in metallurgical & engineering circles... don't know about hack job friend circles, as there's probably wide variation.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  11. #11
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    customfab, I can't speak for your particular case as I don't believe we've corresponded previously. Drop me a PM any time.

    I can tell you that we get claims of cracked rims once in a while and most often the rim is in fact not cracked. The flash butt welding used on our rims leads some to believe that there is a crack where the two ends of the hoop meet. Most often, people that don't build their own wheels find the alleged crack after removing the decals. Wheel builders will typically see the inside of the rim first and because there is no filler material for this type of weld, it may look like a crack on first glance. The casual observer may believe there is a problem since it is not a traditional looking tig/mig weld. Not to say that I've never seen one of our welds crack in service but it is extremely rare.

    For what it's worth at one time we did have a secondary weld operation to fill in the area (inside the rim) but it created more questions that it answered and as it was for aesthetics only, was discontinued as a result.

    Back to the OP, not sure who you may have spoken with but I'll get things straightened out for you. PM coming.
    Please do not use the forum PM or e-mail function for business related questions. I can be contacted through our website. Thanks!

    NoTubes.com

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike B.
    customfab, I can't speak for your particular case as I don't believe we've corresponded previously. Drop me a PM any time.
    [...]
    Back to the OP, not sure who you may have spoken with but I'll get things straightened out for you. PM coming.
    nice.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  13. #13
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    ps. even though i posted about the weld crack let me add- i LOVE my stans wheels. Would not go any other way. ride them on both my rides and love em!

    great product overall.....so dont let my comments send any other message than that after knowhing when i cracked the rim....i just got one more. did not even blink an eye.

  14. #14
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    I contacted Mike at Notubes when I saw what it was supposed to be a crack. See pictures above. This happened exactly as Mike said, after removing the decals. The rim is an Arch 29er and I ve been riding them for 2 years now. Never had a problem with them, and the crack hasnīt "grown" since I first saw it.

  15. #15
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    Is that a crack or is it just not 100% penetration of the joint? If it's the latter, chances are it won't be a problem. As for heat treatment, that's not going to stop if from cracking. If anything, it would probably increase the likelihood.

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