Riding position of 22 inch Surly Karate Monkey or Salsa Fargo- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    New question here. Riding position of 22 inch Surly Karate Monkey or Salsa Fargo

    I've read many older threads about the KM and Fargo, but I still have a question concerning riding position. I'm currently preparing for a century on a Jamis Nova, which is a great bike, but the riding position puts too much flexion on my hip, which has yet another tear. I'm considering a high rise stem or swapping most of the parts onto a Karate Monkey frame. I'm also interested in the Fargo.

    From what pictures I've seen the larger sizes of KM frame have less upright riding positions than the medium size. I am 6 feet tall and wear 32 inch inseam jeans (a sloppy spec I know) and don't want to be leaned too far forward. I don't want Electra beach cruiser geometry either.

    Riding in the drops on my Nova is out of the question and I end up spending about 90% of my time on the bar tops and 10% on the brake hoods.

    For those of you with larger size Fargo or KM frames, is the riding position very upright?

  2. #2
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    I shattered my back at the end of last year. A few months ago, I picked up an XL Ti Fargo and havent had an issue with my back at all while riding it. Ill be riding it next month on my first century since the accident.

  3. #3
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    At 6 feet tall, you should probably be on a Large KM, not an XL. The Fargo will be more upright than a comparably sized KM, due to its shorter top tube (the Fargo being designed for drop bars, the KM for flat bars). In either case, if you really want to be upright, buy a new frame (or at least a new fork) and leave the steerer uncut.

    With drop bars, I found the Fargo quite a bit more comfortable than other drop bar bikes I've ridden. This is mostly due to the long fork + long steerer tube.

    If you're looking for comfort, you should also read what Riv has to say about bike fit.
    http://www.bikingtoplay.blogspot.com/
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    I am just shy of 6'2" and can straddle a yardstick in bare feet and have long arms to match. I have had an XL generation 1 Fargo and currently have a ti Fargo in large. XL was a tad big and I am much more comfortable on the large ti Fargo. Also have two Karate Monkeys and both are large. In either setup (or any frame make), I feel a large is what you need and you are certainly not an XL.
    The relationship between the height of your bars is going to dictate the degree of hip flexion. The top tube length and stem length will effect that as well.
    Not trying to get in your business but what about a little PT work on the hips? It sounds like your chronic hip issue is steering you to the beach cruiser you don't want to ride. Everything is centered and starts at the hip girdle/back/leg/trunk junction - it ain't going away.

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    Thanks everyone for your advice. I read the Rivendell sizing articles too. I used to have a large 2001 Cannondale F500 which had a 20.25 inch seat tube, and I had the seat well above the top tube when riding it. But I did swap a shorter stem onto it shortly after getting it, so the L KM would make more sense to give me an upright riding position.

    I've been through three rounds of injections and physical therapy bilaterally and had both hips scoped to remove or smooth torn tissue and contour the femoral head. Evidently I need a bit more clearance on one side.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zulu View Post
    Thanks everyone for your advice. I read the Rivendell sizing articles too. I used to have a large 2001 Cannondale F500 which had a 20.25 inch seat tube, and I had the seat well above the top tube when riding it. But I did swap a shorter stem onto it shortly after getting it, so the L KM would make more sense to give me an upright riding position.

    I've been through three rounds of injections and physical therapy bilaterally and had both hips scoped to remove or smooth torn tissue and contour the femoral head. Evidently I need a bit more clearance on one side.
    If getting a KM, are you setting it up with drop bars or a flat bar?

    Pictured below you can see my XL Karate Monkey (with flat bar) and 120mm 0 degree rise stem set up for my height (a hair under 6'4"). In general, I find the headtube length to be a bit too short on the Surly bikes (Niner does it right with longer head tubes - 20mm longer in size XL than Surly's) to my liking. So I jacked my KM up a bit with a 100mm fork up front. If running the steel KM fork, I would leave plenty of steerer tube and use a generous stack of spacers to keep the bars up. Nothing that plumbing cannot take care of, but I was just commenting because some brands do have a much more generous headtube length which helps dial in the type of fit you mention you are seeking. If I wanted to put drop bars on my Monkey, I've got the uncut steerer tube on the original KM steel fork that would give me plenty of real estate to work with to dial in a drop bar fit on my Monkey.

    The size L sounds more appropriate for you, although the headtube is 15mm shorter than the XL. You can use plumbing to dial in your bar height so you are not too stretched out and bent over to aggravate your hip. Whether you use riser bars, stem with rise, spacer stack or a combination, you should be able to get your preferred fit. This will shorten your ETT a bit, so it may mean as you come up a bit in height, your stem length will need to grow in length to compensate for the shortened ETT. Easy to experiment and swap stems before you make any steerer tube cuts.

    My XL Monkey with bars a bit below the saddle which is what I like for my mountain bikes.

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8286510972/" title="P1010003 by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8212/8286510972_079afc7e10_z.jpg" width="640" height="424" alt="P1010003"></a>

    This picture shows that I prefer a "French Fit" on a road bike with a stable stretched out position on a very large bike (64cm frame) with long TT, long stem, 260mm headtube length (yes, you read that right) and the flats of my bars and hoods at seat height. And the bars are shallow drops, so when in the drops I'm not too a$$ over hands.

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8979456263/" title="BikeSetUP by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5453/8979456263_d693eafa8e_z.jpg" width="640" height="417" alt="BikeSetUP"></a>

    Whether one agrees or disagrees that there are too many "industry" pictures of a$$ way up in the air and the bars way too low for the majority of riders, it happens. Everybody sees those images (or looks at what the racers do) and tries to mimic it for mountain bikes and road bikes and then end up complaining about the fit or not riding because of the poor fit. Each individual rider has to find the correct balance of forward bend and reach that their body can tolerate and there are trade-offs in both directions.

    So I say dial in a nice fit with the bar height and TT length for you to ride in the best comfort you can for your hips/back/neck/hands. Rivendell (in Walnut Creek, CA where I used to live) is pro-French fit which you read in their articles. Based on what you wrote above, it sounds a lot like getting close to an actual "French Fit" with the bars even or a tad higher than your saddle may be just the ticket you need to increase your comfort.

    Once you go French, you'll be kissing on a bench... Or whatever the saying is. Let us know what you end up buying, and all the best with your healing/therapy.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zulu View Post
    For those of you with larger size Fargo or KM frames, is the riding position very upright?
    I'm riding a 2009 22" KM and with 3 cm spacers and a 35 mm riser bar my bar is about 50 mm lower than the saddle. And my stem is in the lower position. Since 2010 KM has a taller steering tube - so a higher bar is no problem here.

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    I will add with a XXL Ogre frame, I just gave up on drops and went to Jones h-bar loops. I think there wasn't enough head tube for the feel I wanted from the drops. The flats feel a world more natural on this frame. The difficulty I had was getting the drops high enough...when I did, the bike just felt odd in handling.

    if you are considering flat bars the new 710mm Jones bars are nice. They offer a lot of variety in positions. Also trekking bars might be worth a look as a swap on your Jamis.

  9. #9
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    Very sage words Bruce. I am your little brother at 6'1" and ride a Roubaix stretched out with French fit...with Campy btw.
    A question about your 29er HT position. It looks like it is a bit more aggressive than your road bike. Is there a reason why you are running saddle to bar drop on your 29er and not on your road bike? I would think you would like the bars to be a bit higher on your 29er. I presume this is because there is no drop bar position on your 29er and so you settle on a position on your 29er between the drops and hoods on your road bike.
    Further thoughts?
    Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by BruceBrown View Post
    If getting a KM, are you setting it up with drop bars or a flat bar?

    Pictured below you can see my XL Karate Monkey (with flat bar) and 120mm 0 degree rise stem set up for my height (a hair under 6'4"). In general, I find the headtube length to be a bit too short on the Surly bikes (Niner does it right with longer head tubes - 20mm longer in size XL than Surly's) to my liking. So I jacked my KM up a bit with a 100mm fork up front. If running the steel KM fork, I would leave plenty of steerer tube and use a generous stack of spacers to keep the bars up. Nothing that plumbing cannot take care of, but I was just commenting because some brands do have a much more generous headtube length which helps dial in the type of fit you mention you are seeking. If I wanted to put drop bars on my Monkey, I've got the uncut steerer tube on the original KM steel fork that would give me plenty of real estate to work with to dial in a drop bar fit on my Monkey.

    The size L sounds more appropriate for you, although the headtube is 15mm shorter than the XL. You can use plumbing to dial in your bar height so you are not too stretched out and bent over to aggravate your hip. Whether you use riser bars, stem with rise, spacer stack or a combination, you should be able to get your preferred fit. This will shorten your ETT a bit, so it may mean as you come up a bit in height, your stem length will need to grow in length to compensate for the shortened ETT. Easy to experiment and swap stems before you make any steerer tube cuts.

    My XL Monkey with bars a bit below the saddle which is what I like for my mountain bikes.

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8286510972/" title="P1010003 by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8212/8286510972_079afc7e10_z.jpg" width="640" height="424" alt="P1010003"></a>

    This picture shows that I prefer a "French Fit" on a road bike with a stable stretched out position on a very large bike (64cm frame) with long TT, long stem, 260mm headtube length (yes, you read that right) and the flats of my bars and hoods at seat height. And the bars are shallow drops, so when in the drops I'm not too a$$ over hands.

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8979456263/" title="BikeSetUP by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5453/8979456263_d693eafa8e_z.jpg" width="640" height="417" alt="BikeSetUP"></a>

    Whether one agrees or disagrees that there are too many "industry" pictures of a$$ way up in the air and the bars way too low for the majority of riders, it happens. Everybody sees those images (or looks at what the racers do) and tries to mimic it for mountain bikes and road bikes and then end up complaining about the fit or not riding because of the poor fit. Each individual rider has to find the correct balance of forward bend and reach that their body can tolerate and there are trade-offs in both directions.

    So I say dial in a nice fit with the bar height and TT length for you to ride in the best comfort you can for your hips/back/neck/hands. Rivendell (in Walnut Creek, CA where I used to live) is pro-French fit which you read in their articles. Based on what you wrote above, it sounds a lot like getting close to an actual "French Fit" with the bars even or a tad higher than your saddle may be just the ticket you need to increase your comfort.

    Once you go French, you'll be kissing on a bench... Or whatever the saying is. Let us know what you end up buying, and all the best with your healing/therapy.

  10. #10
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    I'm 6'2" plus, and I have a 22" Ogre (same geo as KM) with drop bars. To me it's very comfy...I've done a couple centuries on it. I set it up with some spacers with the intention of getting the hoods in the most comfy position possible, and I use the drops as a headwind tool basically. My hoods are at seat height. Lower than that and I'm hurting after mile 50. My opinion is that the 22" KM would be too long for you. You want a 20" with a long steerer tube and a few spacers under the stem. Then you could play with stem length to dial it in. Just my .02.

    To answer your original question, I would say no, the riding position isn't "very upright." You would have more flexibility in that department with a smaller frame and stem/spacer changes.
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  11. #11
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    Thanks

    Riding position of 22 inch Surly Karate Monkey or Salsa Fargo-jamis-gg-bridge-cropped.jpg

    Thanks for the pictures and examples of your bikes. I do think the top tube would be too long on a 22" Karate Monkey. I attached a picture of my 57cm 2002 Jamis Nova so you can see my current riding position. If I go any lower on the seat I feel like I'm riding a kiddie big wheel. After looking at this picture I'm abandoning my idea of a riser stem.

  12. #12
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    Dan,
    The comment I would make is you really need to take inventory of your riding position in a broader context than just saddle to bar drop and reach. The more your physical challenges, the more your riding position is critical if wanting to ride distance. Btw, I am almost 60 years old, fit, and train distances largely on a road bike. I would put your Nova on Craigslist and get another road bike. Road bikes have evolved a lot in recent years and new tech is much better than the earlier stuff...frames in ratio of vertical to lateral stiffness...new 11s groupsets from all the mfr's and new wheelsets are fantastic. Your saddle to bar drop on your Nova is no good for your condition. Btw, we are identical in size. Look for a 58 or 61 Roubaix with 220-240 'ish head tube length to get your bars around saddle height. Bruce's comments as usual are very insightful...he is one of the smartest guys on this forum btw.

    Here's the nuance about riding position with a tender back. Bolt upright is neither good for power production...no glute or ham enlistment, or for comfort...pile drives a tender back. You need hip rotation. Yes, you say your hips are tender. But where you struggle is with lower back flexion due to a poor riding position. If you posted a profile pic of you on your Nova, it would illustrate this point. Please have somebody snap a pic and post it with hands on the hoods to illustrate this. What you need is more saddle setback on both your road and mtb. This promotes more natural hip rotation and moves your weight rearward. You don't want to ride too cramped...this promotes a slumped posture and pain. A French fit is what you want and that means a bit higher and stretched out which will rotate your hips but most importantly keep your lower back flatter which is correct posture and less stress and less pain whether you are riding a bike or walking down the street.

    Fit is very nuanced. Upright is no good. Too much drop like your Nova places too much pressure on your hands and increases lumbar and neck flexion inducing pain. Reach must be served and best position for power and comfort is French fit which is up and out.

    HTH.

  13. #13
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    Your picture helps, my bars were level with my saddle and still didn't feel high enough for me, so a big difference there. Likely you could get a position that works since you are used to a much bigger drop to the bars.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtrider7 View Post
    Very sage words Bruce. I am your little brother at 6'1" and ride a Roubaix stretched out with French fit...with Campy btw.
    A question about your 29er HT position. It looks like it is a bit more aggressive than your road bike. Is there a reason why you are running saddle to bar drop on your 29er and not on your road bike? I would think you would like the bars to be a bit higher on your 29er. I presume this is because there is no drop bar position on your 29er and so you settle on a position on your 29er between the drops and hoods on your road bike.
    Further thoughts?
    Thanks
    It's a bit lower on my Karate Monkey than other bikes. The TT is shorter on the KM, and the headtube is shorter which in combination makes a good fit for SS'ing for me on that bike.

    On my Niner race bikes, there is a reason my bars are a bit lower than the road bike. XC racing. I'm not a believer in having to have the same position on a road bike as a mountain bike and vice versa. Not to mention, with hoods, flats and drops to vary the positions on the road bike, dialing in the bar height high enough that I can use the drops and be comfortable helped me choose the position. I use the hoods and the drops the most, and probably the flats only about 10% of the time. The Roubaix was purchased for long distance riding (which the French Fit targets). Outside of the one or two endurance races per year that I do on mountain bikes (this year I didn't do any endurance races), I'm rarely on my mountain bike longer than 2 to 2 1/2 hours at the most. But the Roubaix sees 3, 4, 5, 6 hour rides.

    Finding the balance of a position that is aggressive enough to keep my front wheel down on the seated steep climbs and provide enough weight balance to keep the front wheel digging in on corners is what led to the bars being below saddle.

    That being said, the bars are only slightly below the saddle on all my mountain bikes. It's not that drastic of a difference from the "mean" of the average of the 3 positions on my road bike that the hoods/flats/drops provide. Certainly, still close to the realms of a "French Fit" with a big XL frame and minimal bar drop from the saddle, but probably more of the "Eddy Fit".

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/7288163982/" title="P1010011 by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7079/7288163982_565d9bdf36_z.jpg" width="640" height="407" alt="P1010011"></a>

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6886940754/" title="JET profile 2012 by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7050/6886940754_5c42d73d36_z.jpg" width="640" height="392" alt="JET profile 2012"></a>

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9487178689/" title="MooreheadLogOver by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/9487178689_41b74aef2e_z.jpg" width="437" height="631" alt="MooreheadLogOver"></a>

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/7647209034/" title="BuckHill2 by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8425/7647209034_e1d0449cb9_z.jpg" width="640" height="422" alt="BuckHill2"></a>

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceBrown View Post
    It's a bit lower on my Karate Monkey than other bikes. The TT is shorter on the KM, and the headtube is shorter which in combination makes a good fit for SS'ing for me on that bike.

    On my Niner race bikes, there is a reason my bars are a bit lower than the road bike. XC racing. I'm not a believer in having to have the same position on a road bike as a mountain bike and vice versa. Not to mention, with hoods, flats and drops to vary the positions on the road bike, dialing in the bar height high enough that I can use the drops and be comfortable helped me choose the position. I use the hoods and the drops the most, and probably the flats only about 10% of the time. The Roubaix was purchased for long distance riding (which the French Fit targets). Outside of the one or two endurance races per year that I do on mountain bikes (this year I didn't do any endurance races), I'm rarely on my mountain bike longer than 2 to 2 1/2 hours at the most. But the Roubaix sees 3, 4, 5, 6 hour rides.

    Finding the balance of a position that is aggressive enough to keep my front wheel down on the seated steep climbs and provide enough weight balance to keep the front wheel digging in on corners is what led to the bars being below saddle.

    That being said, the bars are only slightly below the saddle on all my mountain bikes. It's not that drastic of a difference from the "mean" of the average of the 3 positions on my road bike that the hoods/flats/drops provide. Certainly, still close to the realms of a "French Fit" with a big XL frame and minimal bar drop from the saddle, but probably more of the "Eddy Fit".

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/7288163982/" title="P1010011 by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7079/7288163982_565d9bdf36_z.jpg" width="640" height="407" alt="P1010011"></a>

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6886940754/" title="JET profile 2012 by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7050/6886940754_5c42d73d36_z.jpg" width="640" height="392" alt="JET profile 2012"></a>

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9487178689/" title="MooreheadLogOver by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/9487178689_41b74aef2e_z.jpg" width="437" height="631" alt="MooreheadLogOver"></a>

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/7647209034/" title="BuckHill2 by BBcamerata, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8425/7647209034_e1d0449cb9_z.jpg" width="640" height="422" alt="BuckHill2"></a>
    Thanks Bruce for the complete response which makes your posts so helpful. Makes sense. My 29er position is close to yours btw, except I run a bit more saddle setback and my overall size is slightly scaled down because I am a bit smaller on a size L hardtail.
    I prefer a slightly stretched out position, not unlike my Roubaix roadbike.
    On my 29er, my saddle tip to handlebar center is 651mm (130 inverted stem w/5mm spacer) and cycling inseam is 35.25"...so easy to get close or even above my saddle height on the 29er platform with 105mm head tube.

    Could you throw a tape on one of your 29ers and measure saddle tip to handlebar center? Also what is your cycling inseam?..has to be in the 36-37" range.
    Thanks again. I want to see if your 3 pt. triangle is close to mine in overall symmetry as you have a lot more experience racing XC than I do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtrider7 View Post
    I prefer a slightly stretched out position, not unlike my Roubaix roadbike.
    On my 29er, my saddle tip to handlebar center is 651mm (130 inverted stem w/5mm spacer) and cycling inseam is 35.25"...so easy to get close or even above my saddle height on the 29er platform with 105mm head tube.

    Could you throw a tape on one of your 29ers and measure saddle tip to handlebar center? Also what is your cycling inseam?..has to be in the 36-37" range.
    Thanks again. I want to see if your 3 pt. triangle is close to mine in overall symmetry as you have a lot more experience racing XC than I do.
    Center of bar to saddle tip is 24.5" (105mm stem flipped negative on my JET 9, saddle is slammed back as far as I can get it on the rails and with the Syntace P6 offset alloy post). Cycling inseam is 35.5". I use 180mm cranks, so saddle is a 1/4" lower on the mountain bikes than on my road bike which has 175mm cranks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceBrown View Post
    Center of bar to saddle tip is 24.5" (105mm stem flipped negative on my JET 9, saddle is slammed back as far as I can get it on the rails and with the Syntace P6 offset alloy post). Cycling inseam is 35.5". I use 180mm cranks, so saddle is a 1/4" lower on the mountain bikes than on my road bike which has 175mm cranks.
    Thanks for that. I was trying to get a sense if our 3pt contact had the same 'symmetry' aka the triangle comprised of saddle, bars and pedal contact pts. had the same angles on a 29er...but learned from your numbers it doesn't. I ride a fair measure more stretched out than you do as it turns out. Our bars are about the same height relative to saddle...mine are just below saddle height like yours, and even though I have longish arms and legs for a 6'1" guy, my saddle tip to handlebar center is a full 1"+ longer. I am running a 30mm setback post with 73 deg sta and 622mm eff. top tube w/130mm stem. Riding in your position is uncomfortable for me...feel too cramped. I would say most ride a mtb a bit closer to your position than mine. Too much time on a road bike I guess and addicted to being stretched out.
    I would say our positions on our road bikes are closer and also with handlebar height about same as saddle height as you do. I spend about 1/2 of the time...perhaps more in the drops on a 50 mile ride and one of the reasons why I have my bar up high...tuned for drop bar riding...also on 175mm cranks. In comparison to other fit roadies, I would say I ride with a higher handlebar than most if not close to all but spend a lot more time in the drop position. I discard vanity for function.

    I believe the other undeniable comparison between a 29er and road bike in riding position pertains to hand position on the bars. Bar height comparison is skewed by hand orientation on respective bar shapes. The so called braced or transverse hand position on a 29er is quite different than a longitudinal position of the hands on the hoods and drops of a road bike. I believe this ergonomic difference detracts a bit from comparing bar height and reach. Of course the tops of a road bike are a lot closer than the hand grips of a 29er flat bar even though the palms are oriented the same direction.

    A last question to you...a guy who really lives the 29er experience to its fullest. You own many beautiful 29ers...hardtails and dualies. If picking just one bike you love to live with day in and day out, which bike would it be?....the minimalist hardtail with or without front shock?...my hardtail is 1 x 9 and rigid...or would it be one of your beautiful dually bikes? I know this question is more purpose or course specific but because you own so many nice bikes, had to ask. To me the right dually for all purpose riding makes a lot of sense because you can literally ride a bike like than anywhere...including on the sidewalk and off curbs.
    Cheers.

  18. #18
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    Maybe you just ride a saddle with a shorter nose?

    This is a good discussion let down by a silly way to measure reach.

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtrider7 View Post
    Thanks for that. I was trying to get a sense if our 3pt contact had the same 'symmetry' aka the triangle comprised of saddle, bars and pedal contact pts. had the same angles on a 29er...but learned from your numbers it doesn't. I ride a fair measure more stretched out than you do as it turns out. Our bars are about the same height relative to saddle...mine are just below saddle height like yours, and even though I have longish arms and legs for a 6'1" guy, my saddle tip to handlebar center is a full 1"+ longer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seat_boy View Post
    Maybe you just ride a saddle with a shorter nose?

    This is a good discussion let down by a silly way to measure reach.
    Let's test your thesis. How long are the variety of saddles you use from back to tip?

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    I didn't have any pics on the computer I posted from before... Here's my Ogre with drops... This pic exaggerates it, but I was a bit wrong about my set-up... my flats/hoods are slightly below seat level. Don't have a straight side shot picture, sorry. This is a 22" ogre, I'm over 6'2", and it's very comfortable for me... I haven't ridden it for more than 11 hours in a day though, so eventually I guess it could get uncomfortable Let me know if you want me to measure anything on the frame and I'd be happy to.

    Riding position of 22 inch Surly Karate Monkey or Salsa Fargo-picture1.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommuterBoy View Post
    I didn't have any pics on the computer I posted from before... Here's my Ogre with drops... This pic exaggerates it, but I was a bit wrong about my set-up... my flats/hoods are slightly below seat level. Don't have a straight side shot picture, sorry. This is a 22" ogre, I'm over 6'2", and it's very comfortable for me... I haven't ridden it for more than 11 hours in a day though, so eventually I guess it could get uncomfortable Let me know if you want me to measure anything on the frame and I'd be happy to.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    What model drop handlebar is that Commuterboy?
    Could you measure saddle tip to center of your handlebar? Generally mounting a drop bar on a 29er is challenging because top tubes are ~ 40mm or so longer for similarly sized cross and road bikes with drop bars....that is unless your ogre is designed for a drop bar.

    11 hours? Wow. Tell us about that ride.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtrider7 View Post
    What model drop handlebar is that Commuterboy?
    Could you measure saddle tip to center of your handlebar? Generally mounting a drop bar on a 29er is challenging because top tubes are ~ 40mm or so longer for similarly sized cross and road bikes with drop bars....that is unless your ogre is designed for a drop bar.
    It's a Nashbar brand oversize road bar (bought it for the 31.8mm clamp area, so I could use a short DH stem.

    Saddle tip to center of handlebar at the stem clamp is 22 3/4"

    I don't know if I buy that whole 'designed for a drop bar' thing. We're talking about fractions of an inch in top-tube length when you really look at the geometry of something like the Fargo. Nothing that can't be made up for with stem length. I saw the Ogre as more versitile because I know I can run a little bit longer stem and a flat bar and have the geometry of a sweet hardtail mtb. Or maybe I'm shaped weird...either way it works great for me.



    11 hours? Wow. Tell us about that ride.
    Bike Ride Profile | Neighborhood Loop near Susanville | Times and Records | Strava
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommuterBoy View Post
    It's a Nashbar brand oversize road bar (bought it for the 31.8mm clamp area, so I could use a short DH stem.

    Saddle tip to center of handlebar at the stem clamp is 22 3/4"

    I don't know if I buy that whole 'designed for a drop bar' thing. We're talking about fractions of an inch in top-tube length when you really look at the geometry of something like the Fargo. Nothing that can't be made up for with stem length. I saw the Ogre as more versitile because I know I can run a little bit longer stem and a flat bar and have the geometry of a sweet hardtail mtb. Or maybe I'm shaped weird...either way it works great for me.





    Bike Ride Profile | Neighborhood Loop near Susanville | Times and Records | Strava
    It doesn't matter if you buy the concept. How many different bikes do you own?...including road bikes and cross bikes? My guess isn't very many.
    Your XL Ogre has a top length of 632mm. Go out on the web and look up top tube lengths of any road bikes. Road bikes come with drop bars. and if anything they are meant to be ridden even more stretched out than a 29er. I ride a XL Roubaix in fact. Top tube length? 582mm...pretty std. top tube for a XL road bike. Difference between your bike and my Roubaix = 50mm = 2 inches. This is a lot...not a little. The Ogre is spec'ed for a flat bar is why and your Ogre has very std. geometry for flatbar 29ers.
    The reason for the difference is obvious. Drop bars have forward sweep of 80mm or so for hood position and flatbars have small 'back sweep'. This delta precisely accounts for the typical top tube difference between a cross or road bike and a flatbar 29er.

  24. #24
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    I own 4 and a half bikes. Road, MTB (29er), Ogre, Singlespeed MTB (29er). And most of a 'cross bike hanging in the rafters. My Giant OCR road bike has a shorter top tube than my Ogre. I totally get how they're designed differently. I'm just saying that when I sit on them, my hands are in the same place relative to my sit bones, because of careful measurement and stem/spacer/seat/seatpost selection. I don't need to buy a Fargo to get my hands and butt the same distance apart if I want to run drop bars.
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    Your Roubaix has a very short top tube for an XL frame. Of the many XL 'cross and road frames I've had, most have run 600~610mm for the ETT. My mountain bikes typically run 625~645, so as little as 15mm and up to 45mm difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtrider7 View Post
    It doesn't matter if you buy the concept. How many different bikes do you own?...including road bikes and cross bikes? My guess isn't very many.
    Your XL Ogre has a top length of 632mm. Go out on the web and look up top tube lengths of any road bikes. Road bikes come with drop bars. and if anything they are meant to be ridden even more stretched out than a 29er. I ride a XL Roubaix in fact. Top tube length? 582mm...pretty std. top tube for a XL road bike. Difference between your bike and my Roubaix = 50mm = 2 inches. This is a lot...not a little. The Ogre is spec'ed for a flat bar is why and your Ogre has very std. geometry for flatbar 29ers.
    The reason for the difference is obvious. Drop bars have forward sweep of 80mm or so for hood position and flatbars have small 'back sweep'. This delta precisely accounts for the typical top tube difference between a cross or road bike and a flatbar 29er.
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    Actually, closer than I thought. My saddles ranged from 265 to about 280mm--though my wife's saddle was down to 240mm. Of course, that doesn't take into account the variation from the nose of the saddle to the clamp region of the saddle. It's still a stupid way to measure reach.

    Best would be to measure the horizontal reach from your stem clamp to the seatpost centerline, and the height difference from saddle to bar, then use some trig to calculate the hypotenuse. That's too much math for me most days, so when I'm comparing my setups, I usually just estimate where the centerline of the seat post intersects the top of the saddle, and measure that point to the stem clamp.

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtrider7 View Post
    Let's test your thesis. How long are the variety of saddles you use from back to tip?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtrider7 View Post
    A last question to you...a guy who really lives the 29er experience to its fullest. You own many beautiful 29ers...hardtails and dualies. If picking just one bike you love to live with day in and day out, which bike would it be?....the minimalist hardtail with or without front shock?...my hardtail is 1 x 9 and rigid...or would it be one of your beautiful dually bikes? I know this question is more purpose or course specific but because you own so many nice bikes, had to ask. To me the right dually for all purpose riding makes a lot of sense because you can literally ride a bike like than anywhere...including on the sidewalk and off curbs.
    Cheers.
    Full Suspension is what I reach for with regard to your 1 bike only question.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtrider7 View Post
    Of course the tops of a road bike are a lot closer than the hand grips of a 29er flat bar even though the palms are oriented the same direction.
    Several other factors as well.

    Bar width, degree of sweep (a 3 degree flat bar on a mountain bike has a lot different "reach" than a 15 degree sweep flat bar - which all determines the length of stem as well for a mountain bike), length of saddle, where one wears his/her cleats (mine are jammed as far rearward towards my arch as I can get them on my shoes), and the actual arm and torso measurements of each unique individual. My KM currently has WTB Deva on it which is 20mm shorter than my Silverado. And I have a Thomson layback which gives me the measurement of 25" from center of bar to nose of saddle. Yet it feels the exact same as my other bikes - most likely because that particular measurement doesn't capture the entire picture.

    We are pretty static on a road bike with our position. On a mountain bike, we are moving all over the bike based on the terrain. My finger tip to nut measurement can only be so long to make sure I can get low and behind the saddle when needed on technical descents. Maybe that's what we should be measuring - fingers on the bars to nut measurement while behind the saddle!

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    ^^ My natural endowment would skew those numbers.
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    I am thinking this frame is too small

    Riding position of 22 inch Surly Karate Monkey or Salsa Fargo-bike-frame.jpg

    After reading the reports of KM sizing by rider height and inseam I decided that the large KM frame would be better for me, because I will use it for more road and trail than singletrack, and even the singletrack is relatively tame.

    Now that I've built the skeleton I'm thinking the frame is too small. Even with mustache bars putting the hand position far forward I'm using a 120mm stem, and an obsene amount of spacers and 25 degrees of rise to get the handlebar high enough for a comfortable (non-aero, non-competitive) riding position. I've also got my seatpost jacked up. Maybe Surly put the wrong frame in the box? he box was labeled correctly, and I don't see a size sticker on the frame, so maybe I should measure it.

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    Dan - looks like a large to me. If it measures 17.5 cnt of bb to cnt of sloping top tube and if it is about 21 inches to your seat post colar, then you've got a large. Again, at 6 foot and looking at the amount of seat post you are showing on that beauty you've put together, you look like a good fit on a large and not a size larger by any stretch. In fact, that is just what a larger frame size would be for you - an ill-fitted stretch. I know you're not soliciting advice here but I would suggest you stick with the large.

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    Fit looks good. You're going to need a longer stem for those handlebars for sure.

    I'm 6'2" and super long and rode a large for years.
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    Thanks, I think maybe I am just becoming timid and simply need to finish building it and go ride. If a few months go by and I still think its too small then I'll reconsider then.

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