Question for _DW.....Any 29er 5lb frames in the pipeline?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Question for _DW.....Any 29er 5lb frames in the pipeline?

    _DW. First thing, thanks for the creative brilliance of your design. Im happily riding a DW Sultan but feel Im carrying at least 2lbs extra on the frame, as most of my riding just doesn't need the extra burl....so I could easily be on a lighter, 4 to 5" travel bike (something Mojoesque comes to mind) It has to be DW link and 29 and probably carbon. Any insider info? Care to give us any clues? If SaCruz are doing it who is going to be the first to make a DW link version? I dont need any names I just want to hear its going to be soon and then I will happily ride my Sultan and wait! Yes? or NO?

  2. #2
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    I'd be very interested in an "endurance" type of 29er as well, though I'd also be leery of a 5 b frame. The large Mojo 26 frame is just below 6 lbs. I think what I'd prefer is a 5.5lb-6 lb frame with a leverage curve that is designed for fast pedaling....maybe more of a linear curve? _dw can probably answer this curve part. A bike like this that pedals really well and rides high in its travel on climbs is going to pedal faster and "lighter" than other bikes of similar weight or even less weight. One thing I don't fully understand is the leverge curve and how it relates to more efficient pedaling.

  3. #3
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    Pivot 429, http://www.pivotcycles.com/mach429.php. I think it's right around 5.5 pounds.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ne_dan
    Pivot 429, http://www.pivotcycles.com/mach429.php. I think it's right around 5.5 pounds.
    Really? I thought they were closer to 7lbs?
    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes View Post
    Of course the easiest way to fix this is to go for a hike.
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  5. #5
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    "though I'd also be leery of a 5 b frame. The large Mojo 26 frame is just below 6 lbs."

    Mojo SL 4.93lbs...claimed weight!

  6. #6
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    Pivot 429

    Yup, the 429 is over 7 lbs. for the frame. My riding partner has one, and it is a great bike, very efficient pedaler, the suspension is definitely tuned for efficiency over plush ride.
    The 429 is incredibly stiff laterally and torsionally, making it a great bike for a larger rider. I wish there was a frame like this but at a more reasonable weight, even if it was not quite as stiff.

  7. #7
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    .....which leaves the Tallboy....my previous SC's were not bad I suppose...the Heckler bobbed bad and the Nomad was good in the rough but neither felt anywhere as good as the Mojo and now the Sultan....guess I'll wait n see what the reviews of the TBoy are like.....

  8. #8
    Recovering Weight Weenie
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    The Lenz Leviathan is 5.5lbs in medium. Been out for 5 + years.

    Mine is 6.5lbs in size XXXXXXXXXL.


  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidsuma
    .....which leaves the Tallboy....my previous SC's were not bad I suppose...the Heckler bobbed bad and the Nomad was good in the rough but neither felt anywhere as good as the Mojo and now the Sultan....guess I'll wait n see what the reviews of the TBoy are like.....
    with the right shock, the nomad2 is turning out to be pretty impressive...my favorite SC frame i've tried so far. so i'm actually (sorta) interested in the tallboy.

    26er hardtail XC bikes are sorta useless in my book, so i was disappointed when ibis told me there were no plans for a 29er Tranny. I explained to them that a carbon fiber 29er hardtail that had a removable rear triangle for airplane travel, AND was a clean solution for those wantign to try belt drive SS, would be a winner but Ibis stubbornly refused to see the light. they just seem clueless when it comes to 29ers, so i'm not holding my breath on a DW Ibis Mojo 29er.

    Pivot, on the other hand...if they go carbon...
    Originally posted by bucksaw87
    I still fail to see how mustaches, fixies, and PBR are ironic.

  10. #10
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    Good looking frame. Enjoy that Pro-Pedal lever.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ne_dan
    Pivot 429, http://www.pivotcycles.com/mach429.php. I think it's right around 5.5 pounds.
    The Pivot is superb. Super stiff, awesome frame!
    Support Bend Trails
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  12. #12
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    From the Pivot Cycles website, the write up about the Mach 4:
    Weight:
    This deserves to be addressed separately because it tops the list of frequently asked questions and having a light bike is certainly in the top 3 of important items when deciding what and how to build your next cross country race bike. Incidentally, we believe the number one goal a racer should consider is getting the bike that you can go fastest on, which in most cases is not going to be the absolute lightest bike. A rider shopping purely by the scale is overlooking the balance of stiffness, efficiency, and lightweight that will result in the fastest lap times, and here’s why:
    First, there are no big secrets among those who know how to build cutting edge aluminum and carbon fiber frames. Most high-end suspension bike frames have a front and rear triangle, a linkage, a shock, usually four pivot points, and all the basic parts that make a bike frame a bike frame. The top builders all use similar cutting edge materials with similar properties. That said, we always find it interesting when a company claims a frame weight under 5lbs for their cross country suspension frame. It’s certainly possible and in a couple of rare cases it has been achieved. If a (medium) suspension frame weighs under about 5.25lbs, compromises in stiffness, longevity, and efficiency have been made to get there. In most cases it is a “target” number and not the real thing. In the case of the Mach 4, this frame was designed with the finished product in mind. The Mach 4 ultimately is designed to be a high performance, lightweight “complete bike”. The future is not looking at just the frame, but the bike as a whole. With the Mach 4, the future has arrived early (it’s that fast). We were not shooting for the lightest frame, but we did design the Mach 4 to be are one of the lightest bikes in the world. There are quite a few areas where we “added” to our frame in order to build a lighter and/or better performing bike. For instance, the direct mount front derailleur tabs are part of our frame design but eliminate the need for a front derailleur clamp. In this case, the difference between an XT standard clamp front derailleur and our direct mount is 35 grams or 1.2oz. The same can be said for our 92mm BB design and larger diameter head tube for the bike’s zero stack headset. Our frames come complete with the XTR bearings as part of the frame and the zero stack headset weighs less then a standard headset resulting in a lighter overall system weight.
    In order to prove our point, we decided to enlist the help of Over the Edge Sports in Fruita Colorado to do a little research.
    They weighted 2 popular frames in addition to ours on their digital scale. The first being the Santa Cruz Blur XC and the 2nd being the Ibis Mojo. Both frames were approximately equivalent in size and top tube length to our Medium Mach 4. The Blur XC weighed 5.65lbs and the Mojo Weighed 5.9. The Mach 4 weighed 6.1 lbs including the XTR bottom bracket. This is where it gets interesting. If you add an XT front derailleur, XTR bottom bracket, and 11/8th headset to the Blur and Mojo, and then add the direct mount XT front derailleur and zero stack headset to the Mach 4, (a true apples to apples comparison) here is what you get:
    Santa Cruz Blur XC with headset, XT front derailleur, and XTR BB: 6lb8oz
    Pivot Mach 4 w/ headset, XT front derailleur, and XTR internal BB: 6lb9oz
    Ibis Mojo Carbon with headset, XT front derailleur, and XTR BB: 6lb11oz
    All three of these are top level performers and all three line up within 2oz of each other.
    To further prove our point, we offer our Mach 4 as a complete bike with some very light high performance components from the finest manufactures in the world with the intent of building a race bike that can be raced and ridden virtually everywhere; even by a 200lb rider. The result is a bike that comes in under 21.5lbs in a medium and 21.26lbs as a small. Yes, we said 21.26lbs REAL WEIGHT! This means the Mach 4 comes in lighter then the new carbon fiber wonders from Specialized and Trek (at about the same price) in a package that is far more usable for the real world rider. That said; if you choose, your Mach 4 could be built even lighter! Our lightest stock model uses standard tires with tubes, stainless steel rotors, an average weight saddle, post and handlebar, a Ritchey headset, XTR shifters and derailleurs. By going with just a few of the items that are the rage among the most weight conscious racers, the Mach 4 could push under the 20lb. mark. We haven’t gone off the deep end just yet, but we are sure it won’t be long before one of our customers sends us a photo of their 19.8lb Mach 4. It’s bound to happen.
    For those with less of an appetite for high dollar helium hardware, our personal bikes and race team bikes with our standard Fox forks and Fox rear shock are coming in between 22.5 and 23.25lbs. We think that’s just right.

    That being said, my small Mach 429 weighs just over 25 lbs. And that is with a conservative spec list.
    Ride it, don’t write about it!

  13. #13
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    Regular Mojo was around a 6 lb frame....mine wasd I am surprised the SL shaved a lb off that but anyway, a 29er version of that would be a bit too bendy in the rear and the thickness dimensions cannot be increased so they will have to redesign the linkage to create a 29er that is stiff enough. I'm sure Hans could do it though.

    I think if there is enough interest, Dave Turner would look into a faster and lighter "endurance" version of the Sultan but I doubt he will want to build a 5 b frame. I'll put up a poll later to see how many would want something like this. I would but 5 lbs would worry me a bit. I like stiffer frames that are relatively durable and I think the leverage curve could be modified to create a bike that is built for speed. I'd like to see 4" frame that is the Turner NitroFlux 29er with a slightly shorter wheelbase and a flatter curve.

    The SC Tallboy weighs how much again? The geometry seems good but I'm not into carbon or their bearings (they may have eliminated that bearing problem but that was a nightmare and their CS sucked).

  14. #14
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    Right on....

    Quote Originally Posted by Padre
    The Lenz Leviathan is 5.5lbs in medium. Been out for 5 + years.

    Mine is 6.5lbs in size XXXXXXXXXL.


    IMO...

    If Devin made a sub 6 pound Lev, with 5" of travel (with a not-so-high-BB) he'd have the market cornered.

    Basically a lighter, lower BB, Bohem.

  15. #15
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    Interesting post Scotto. Thank you
    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes View Post
    Of course the easiest way to fix this is to go for a hike.
    DT

  16. #16
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    light 29er FS

    For me, if a L frame came it at an honest 6lbs. or under (with shock, seatpost collar) that would be light enough. At that weight it would be possible to build a complete endurance racer under 24 lbs with careful parts selection. Apparently the Tallboy is 5 lbs, but I find that hard to believe-I bet a L Tallboy with seat collar and shock is closer to 5.5 lbs. It is tough to build dual link bikes really light without serious stiffness problems.
    The new Superfly 100 is right around 5 lbs. for the frame, this is a single pivot with ABP, and looking at the details it is probably close to that weight, at least in a medium. I've have seen super light builds of the Superfly 100 floating around that were below 23 lbs.\
    I think there is really good market for a FS 29er for endurance racing that is reasonably light, the Pivot is too heavy to build a L at 24 lbs or under. Right now the only real choice is the Tallboy or Superfly 100, I wish one could but the SF 100 as a frame only. I really have no interest in spending $6K on a bike with someone else's idea of the parts I should ride.

  17. #17
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    Good to hear.....If DT had kept the V2 Sultan as a 4" Nitrousesqe racer I would be very happy. The longer 5" travel trail bike is always tempting, but here in the UK it means going to Wales or up North to get the chunk to warrant using it.....most of my riding is a quick one or two hour blast round local trails (smooth with roots and some exposed limestone brash) rides that are squeezed in between all the other good things in life, I may not be a racer but I am always working on my edge and looking for an adrenaline upper.....lighter race feel bikes is where Im heading.

  18. #18
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    I'm with you, kidsuma...would love to also get a fast 4" Nitrous-like endurance racer from Turner. The Tallboy geo looks really good for that but I'm admittedly a bit leery of SC in general and I'd prefer Aluminum myself. I think I'll put up that poll I have been thinking about.

  19. #19
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    Flyer.....you put it up I'll sign it

  20. #20
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    Done...poll is up in a new thread.

  21. #21
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    One could probably make a stiff 5 pound aluminum 29" FS frame, but it would be incredibly fragile with paper thin tube walls.

    I guess if you never crashed, you'd be OK.

  22. #22
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    Hardtail...

    Kidsuma, if your rides are mostly under two hours on the terrain you describe you might want to consider a hardtail. No problem building a fast ti or carbon 29er hardtail at 22 lbs or less, and this would suit the riding you describe perfectly.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder
    One could probably make a stiff 5 pound aluminum 29" FS frame, but it would be incredibly fragile with paper thin tube walls.

    I guess if you never crashed, you'd be OK.
    Exactly. And it would have a weight limit like the Flux used to have. What was it 180lbs?

  24. #24
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    barrows...yea but hardtail = back ache...I like the cush

  25. #25
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    I think that was the Nitrous. I don't belive the Flux had a weight limit.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    I think that was the Nitrous. I don't belive the Flux had a weight limit.
    I was the Nitrous, and the weight limit was 160.

    I'm pretty skinny, and weigh 165 @ 6'.

  27. #27
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    I hear ya...

    Quote Originally Posted by kidsuma
    barrows...yea but hardtail = back ache...I like the cush
    But if you are having back aches with rides under 2 hours you might want to do some strengthening of your core muscles. I have some back pain as well, but not until my rides extend beyond 4 hours. Crunches and back extensions two-three times a week really helps, if you still have problems after four to five weeks of strength work, consider consulting a chiropractor. Chiropractic care has really improved my riding.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    I think that was the Nitrous. I don't belive the Flux had a weight limit.
    Thank you for the correction.

  29. #29
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    no worries

    Quote Originally Posted by barrows
    But if you are having back aches with rides under 2 hours you might want to do some strengthening of your core muscles. I have some back pain as well, but not until my rides extend beyond 4 hours. Crunches and back extensions two-three times a week really helps, if you still have problems after four to five weeks of strength work, consider consulting a chiropractor. Chiropractic care has really improved my riding.
    No problem on 2 hour rides but feel it on a 7...so I reckon look after my back now, use the sus for health as well as improved handling and I can be riding when Im 70+

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidsuma
    I can be riding when Im 70+
    Depends how old you are now. Who was it the Myan's or Inca's that said the world was going to end in 2011? Just kidding of course
    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes View Post
    Of course the easiest way to fix this is to go for a hike.
    DT

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duzitall
    Depends how old you are now. Who was it the Myan's or Inca's that said the world was going to end in 2011? Just kidding of course
    Its 2012...winter solstice to be precise......winter holiday in NZ that year.....just kidding of course!

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