Poll: Anyone interested in a carbon 29er?- Mtbr.com
Results 1 to 51 of 51
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    349

    Poll: Anyone interested in a carbon 29er?

    I've been in contact with an overseas company who might be able to make a run of full carbon 29ers. These aren't going to be custom, so what're your opinions on geometry? Also, does anyone feel that carbon has inherent weaknesses that should/need to be addressed? Thanks.

  2. #2
    Harmonius Wrench
    Reputation: Guitar Ted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,254

    Buy an Orbea

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunkie
    I've been in contact with an overseas company who might be able to make a run of full carbon 29ers. These aren't going to be custom, so what're your opinions on geometry? Also, does anyone feel that carbon has inherent weaknesses that should/need to be addressed? Thanks.
    Orbea is coming out with an Alma 29"er this spring. Unless your contact is going to be a great price point product, I'd probably go with the Orbea.

    Carbon fiber mountain bike frames have always been eyed with suspicion. Many feel that these types of frames are to be avoided. However; the material has been used to great success by several different manufacturers. Trek, Giant, Specialized, and a host of other smaller manufacturers still use the material to this day. If it were not a good idea, then it would have been abandoned as a viable frame material by now.

    So, the naysayers will post, I'm sure of that, but the truth is all frame materials suffer from failures of one sort or another depending on the circumstances. Carbon fiber is no different. However, it is a good material to make a mountain bike frame from.

    I would want to know who it is that these frames are coming from, their experience in building with carbon fiber, and who they might have manufactured for now or in the past before I'd say that I'd buy one. That and what warranty was available. That's why I'd probably buy a frame of this type from an Orbea, or Trek, if they'd ante up and make one.
    Riden' an Smilin'
    Guitar Ted

    Blog
    RidingGravel.com

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    349
    Yeah, I understand. I'm probably going to go through with it anyway. I'm not deterred by naysayers as most of the time they just spend their lives wallowing through the mud while others are actually accomplishing things. I found a very reliable maker of carbon frames, and other various parts. They've had a good bit of success in the UK from what I understand. Also, there's no way I'm going to buy an Orbea unless they offer their bike as a frame. Who the heck is going to buy a complete bike and spend an extra 2500 on parts they already have - that's freakin' stupid. I think Orbea is a really cool company, and this is by no means a knock on them. I just figured I'd offer everyone a chance to contribute their 2 cents before I proceed.

  4. #4
    SUBLIM8er
    Reputation: Axis II's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    2,203
    So the advantages of a CF 29er would be.......? The only things I can think of offhand would be weight (maybe,) stiffness (maybe) and the ability to appeal to the large CF worshiping market. I didn't mention compliance because I really don't think that's an issue with the bigger wheeled platform. Heck, that's why so many run their 29s rigid. The sacrifice that one would give up in durability (don't scratch that CF weave) and price would seem to outstrip the advantages for a 29 frame IMO. Sorry, does this make me a naysayer?
    Every man has inside himself a parasitic being who is acting not at all to his advantage.
    William S. Burroughs

  5. #5
    Law
    Law is offline
    45 gone, 15 to go
    Reputation: Law's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,237
    Quote Originally Posted by Axis II
    So the advantages of a CF 29er would be.......? The only things I can think of offhand would be weight (maybe,) stiffness (maybe) and the ability to appeal to the large CF worshiping market. I didn't mention compliance because I really don't think that's an issue with the bigger wheeled platform. Heck, that's why so many run their 29s rigid. The sacrifice that one would give up in durability (don't scratch that CF weave) and price would seem to outstrip the advantages for a 29 frame IMO. Sorry, does this make me a naysayer?

    The only way I would be interested in a carbon frame was if it was cheaper than titanium, lighter than aluminum, had a ride that was less jarring than aluminum, and was as durable as either titanium or steel. other than that, I'll pass. Bottom line is the ride, the durability and lightness. I can get past the $$$ aspect if it has those three.
    my builder: Neil at Cernitz Bike

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    349
    The issue is simple, really. It's evolution. That's why 29ers exist in the first place. Thankfully, gary fisher et al pursued a different idea - one that we've obviously benefited from. Seems the new Pace 29" fork is selling like hotcakes, no? If durability were of paramount concern for carbon, then it would be ludacris to build a fork from it. If it were such a bad idea for a frame, then surely the folks at Orbea have gone mad. The fact is, carbon is a fantastic material for mountain bikes. Every material has its strengths and weaknesses. I think a 3lb carbon frame under or around $800 would be great for the 29er cause, as well as many riders who already enjoy the big wheels. I'm not a "devotee" of any particular material, as every bike regardless of what it's made of, will ride differently. BTW my definition of a naysayer is someone who speaks out against an idea on a largely emotional basis, and/or someone who is generally afraid of change. If you have an intelligent, informed opinion please come forth with it.

  7. #7
    Sweep the leg!
    Reputation: Caffeine Powered's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    3,803
    I'd buy one if it had an EBB.

  8. #8
    Law
    Law is offline
    45 gone, 15 to go
    Reputation: Law's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,237
    Quote Originally Posted by Yunkie
    BTW my definition of a naysayer is someone who speaks out against an idea on a largely emotional basis, and/or someone who is generally afraid of change. If you have an intelligent, informed opinion please come forth with it.

    you're a little touchy aren't ya. Well I guess I can be touchy too then. I take it that my desired attributes for a carbon frame are not intelligent or informed. I ain't pissed or anything here, I just thought I would let you know where I am coming from.

    It is not like you are a major brand with instant credibility or anything.

    Regardless of who you are, or who is making the frame for you potentially, my statement of what it would take for me to be interested stands.

    $800 seems pretty cheap to me. No problem there.

    I have never riden a carbon frame offroad. So when I state what I would want in a carbon frame it is with reference to frames i have ridden, Steel, Ti, and Aluminum. I don't like aluminum frames. I like steel and ti. SO if you come forth with a carbon frame that rides more like steel or ti, I am interested. Is that not intelligent or credible...?

    The durability issue is directly linked to your manufacturer's credibility of which I know nothing about. So forgive me for not giving you the same sort of benefit of doubt I give to Easton, FSA, Trek, USE, and others who's carbon parts I have owned or presently own. I have lots of carbon parts on my bikes.

    There have been reports that some manufacturers in Asia have been tossing in a little fiberglass into their carbon mix. So I believe I have a right to question the durability of an unknown entity's carbon offering.

    If you have any intelligent or informed infomation that can enlighten me, that would be great. I am not a carbon hater or anti-evolutionary, nor are most here in the 29er forum. But your generalities are not getting many too excited because we have no idea what this product will look like, what it will ride like, or its durability/dependability.

    Maybe if you let us what products this company has produced or can give us some access to some no-biased reviews of their products that would help. I would be very interested. I am excited about Carbon frames, the orbea included. You just need to come up with more info to avoid folks like me that are skeptical of new companies offerings until proven. I have been burned before by new products. I don't like wasting my money.
    Last edited by Law; 02-15-2006 at 04:35 PM.
    my builder: Neil at Cernitz Bike

  9. #9
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,236
    CF can be a great material for frames.

    Its strength is that is can be shaped and tuned to give the ride qualities you want at a reasonable, and possibly, very light, weight.

    Its weakness is it can take an engineer, many prototypes, and lots of time and money to achieve the above and be sure the frames are not going to fail.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    349
    Quote Originally Posted by Law
    you're a little touchy aren't ya. Well I guess I can be touchy too then. I take it that my desired attributes for a carbon frame are not intelligent or informed. I ain't pissed or anything here, I just thought I would let you know where I am coming from.

    It is not like you are a major brand with instant credibility or anything.

    Regardless of who you are, or who is making the frame for you potentially, my statement of what it would take for me to be interested stands.

    $800 seems pretty cheap to me. No problem there.

    I have never riden a carbon frame offroad. So when I state what I would want in a carbon frame it is with reference to frames i have ridden, Steel, Ti, and Aluminum. I don't like aluminum frames. I like steel and ti. SO if you come forth with a carbon frame that rides more like steel or ti, I am interested. Is that not intelligent or credible...?

    The durability issue is directly linked to your manufacturer's credibility of which I know nothing about. So forgive me for not giving you the same sort of benefit of doubt I give to Easton, FSA, Trek, USE, and others who's carbon parts I have owned or presently own. I have lots of carbon parts on my bikes.

    There have been reports that some manufacturers in Asia have been tossing in a little fiberglass into their carbon mix. So I believe I have a right to question the durability of an unknown entity's carbon offering.

    If you have any intelligent or informed infomation that can enlighten me, that would be great. I am not a carbon hater or anti-evolutionary, nor are most here in the 29er forum. But your generalities are not getting many too excited because we have no idea what this product will look like, what it will ride like, or its durability/dependability.

    Maybe if you let us what products this company has produced or can give us some access to some no-biased reviews of their products that would help. I would be very interested. I am excited about Carbon frames, the orbea included. You just need to come up with more info to avoid folks like me that are skeptical of new companies offerings until proven. I have been burned before by new products. I don't like wasting my money.
    Which is exactly why I came to this board looking for input as to what would make a carbon frame great. I share your reservations, but they're not going to result in a really great revolutionary carbon frame. I guess I should specify yet more. I'm not looking for informed or educated reasons why I need to be cautious. I need informed and educated input on what would make for a great carbon frame. Thanks, and I'm sorry if I've offended anyone.

  11. #11
    Law
    Law is offline
    45 gone, 15 to go
    Reputation: Law's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,237
    Quote Originally Posted by Yunkie
    Which is exactly why I came to this board looking for input as to what would make a carbon frame great. I share your reservations, but they're not going to result in a really great revolutionary carbon frame. I guess I should specify yet more. I'm not looking for informed or educated reasons why I need to be cautious. I need informed and educated input on what would make for a great carbon frame. Thanks, and I'm sorry if I've offended anyone.

    As someone with a prior experience in investigating carbon fiber possiblities I would talk to domestic builders of the stuff. I would bug them for info if nothing else.

    I won't go into why I was looking into building stuff with carbon fiber here, but I will give you names of a couple of companies that I dealt with about 7 years ago or so, and they are all still in business I think. You have to find their numbers on your own, but they are all located in Utah.

    Advanced Composites (Salt Lake area)
    Quality Composites (Salt Lake area)
    Rocky Mountain composites. (Springville, Utah)

    One of the above makes Wound Up stuff
    Another made all of the the very early Trek OCLV stuff, especially the prototyping.

    I would contact them if you are truly serious because you may find someone that can tell you better than folks here what the potential problems are. They may steer you toward reliable folks to produce as well. I would not rely on one overseas manufacturer to get all of your info on whether the stuff will be quality.

    Also, as a future lawyer, beware of your ass. I would not want to be personally liable if I were you. Set up some sort of entity to protect yourself or your shop if you are going through a shop. Maybe you have this covered already. I am dead serious about this. Set up an LLC, or a Corporation to run this operation though. distance yourself personally from all personal liability. get insurance. Blah blah blah, this may be too obvious. Good luck
    my builder: Neil at Cernitz Bike

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    349
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxrep
    Yunkie,

    CF 29er frames are surely on their way. Unfortunately, you will not be their ambassador.

    This may sound unkind, but it is the plain truth. You do not have the brand recognition, knowledge or experience with the material, financial or distribution resources(my best guess).

    I understand that the American dream is one that tells all they can accomplish anything. The odds are against you in a staggering fashion. If there is something you ALREADY have a substantial knowledge in, or skill in a trade, put your efforts there for financial reward. This will allow you to purchase a carbon Orbea frame many times over. This also qualifies as a successful American dream, and stands a much greater chance of reaching fruition.

    Many will tell you that attempting to turn a hobby into a business can be a recipe for disaster while spoiling the enjoyment of the hobby in the first place.

    You also have to ask yourself why you are more likely to succede in this endeavor than other candidates. When you come to the realization that you are indeed inadequately prepared, when standing toe to toe with the major brands that have already produced carbon mtb frames, like Giant, you can then focus on your own skills. You know, numchuck skillz, bowhunting skillz, computer hacking skillz.........Sorry, had to throw in a little Napolean Dynamite!

    Bottom line, do something you are already good at!
    Thanks for the advice. I already run two companies, I own two homes and I've already paid for my daughters college education. She's 2. I appreciate everyone's scepticism - it's well founded, and the competition is indeed fierce. I'm looking for ideas - not advice. Especially not business advice. If you know anything about carbon fiber frames, and you have informed opinions about frame design please let me know. If you need examples of specifically what I mean, I'll give some: Lugs? Mixing with other materials/metals? Varying tube diameters (where and why). Then there's the other stuff like head and seat tube angles, stay lengths, ht length, rake, trail etc... Thanks again. I love you all.

  13. #13
    Feet back and spread 'em!
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    624

    no

    no carbon for me.

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    236
    I think the title of your initial post is throwing people off. I think people here would be glad to tell you what they think you should do geometry wise, disc vs. V bosses or both, etc. If you're looking for that kind of opinion, I think you'll be able to get more than you can handle. But they don't want to feel like they're committing to a frame without knowing a lot of background. People are leery of carbon unless it comes from a known source because its touchier than other stuff, and easier to disguise poor workmanship.
    I would buy a pair of rip off euro shades to wear to pick up the ladies from a street vendor on the streets but I wouldn't buy riding shades from him.
    I would buy a steel frame from basically any small builder, heck, a friend of mine brazed an EBB into my frame. And while it I don't trust that brazing as much as I would trust a weld from Jeff Jones, I ride the bike. Brazing steel is relatively simple. Plus, I watched my friend do it.
    Carbon is not simple and while most Asian quality control is really good, some of it isn't. I won't buy carbon bikes unless they come from a major supplier who's been in the game for a long time.

    Personally, I'm not in the market. I've got a RIG, and if I "upgrade" it will probably be to custom steel. But there are lots of weight weenies out there.

    YO MAMA

  15. #15
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,236
    Quote Originally Posted by Yunkie
    ...If you know anything about carbon fiber frames, and you have informed opinions about frame design please let me know. If you need examples of specifically what I mean, I'll give some: Lugs? Mixing with other materials/metals? Varying tube diameters (where and why). Then there's the other stuff like head and seat tube angles, stay lengths, ht length, rake, trail etc... Thanks again. I love you all.
    This is where you need (at least) a materials engineer and they are going to expect to be paid.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  16. #16
    Canfield Brothers
    Reputation: flymybike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,110
    Quote Originally Posted by bikecop
    no carbon for me.
    now thats a well informed response! haha

    Lots of research will help but if you have a reliable supplier, desigh, enginneering dept, etc.. the first thing I would do is go visit there factory.

  17. #17
    Law
    Law is offline
    45 gone, 15 to go
    Reputation: Law's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,237
    I am officially done with this thread. Let us know when you have something solid to show. You are kind of a jerk. You come at us with no history, no information and then bag on us for giving advice....good job. That being said, if you come up with something sweet, I might be interested.
    Last edited by Law; 02-16-2006 at 12:10 AM.
    my builder: Neil at Cernitz Bike

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    349
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxrep
    Uh huh.....and you're here on this forum soliciting ideas for a new angle on carbon fiber frames?

    The lack of input you're receiving comes in part from the fact that we are not material science majors, nor are you, and may not recognize a more prudent use of CF if it bit us in the buttocks.

    First off, none of this forum banter will get you anywhere until you understand the "lay up" process and current fabrication methods used in todays CF frames. Once you have aquired some working knowledge in this subject, you will have a "filter" with which you can pass ideas through for feasability.

    To some, your approach here seems a bit backward and ill fated. Its hard to generate much enthusiasm in this scenario.
    At last - an honest answer. Your right, I don't know anything about carbon, which is exactly why I was coming to you all. If you too don't know anything about carbon then that's fine, but don't criticize me for asking! Do you think the guy who runs Daimler Chrysler knows how to rebuild a hemi? Of course not, he/she is an effective manager, and a business person. If my faith in everyone's knowledge was misplaced, then you're right - I'm clearly barking up the wrong tree, and I'll look elsewhere. But again, that's not a reason to cap on me. And Law - I'm not a jerk, I'm just reacting to a bunch of people effectively telling that I'm an idiot. Usually people on this board have tons of really detailed input on comlicated subjects. I had no reason to think it would be any different with c/f. I've experienced nothing but people telling me why I should be discouraged, and then they don't even believe me when I explain my qualifications. If you don't understand me or what I'm trying to accomplish that's fine - but it's not a reason to be insulting. Maxrep - if anyone's a jerk here it's you. You approach me like I'm a freakin' 12 year old. Who the f are you? How dare you doubt my qualifications. You don't know me, and you're bent on trashing me, so I'd appreciate you just staying off fo this thread unless you have something constructive to add.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: brant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,841
    Quote Originally Posted by Yunkie
    Maxrep - if anyone's a jerk here it's you. You approach me like I'm a freakin' 12 year old. Who the f are you? How dare you doubt my qualifications. You don't know me, and you're bent on trashing me, so I'd appreciate you just staying off fo this thread unless you have something constructive to add.
    Oh lord.

  20. #20
    Recovering couch patato
    Reputation: Cloxxki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    14,017
    Have y'all sitten down on a broken carbon seatpost? Lighten up!
    I'm closing this thread the first time someone is unfriendly again. Try to be nice and helpful (not saying please).
    It's a forum, not a crusifixion (sp)!

  21. #21
    SUBLIM8er
    Reputation: Axis II's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    2,203
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    Have y'all sitten down on a broken carbon seatpost? Lighten up!
    I'm closing this thread the first time someone is unfriendly again. Try to be nice and helpful (not saying please).
    It's a forum, not a crusifixion (sp)!
    I'll try to be helpful by figuring out what happened here: BTW, I say no to sitting on broken CF seatposts. Anyway, in retrospect it looks like this thread went sour when the ellicited feedback didn't go in the desired direction for the guy. He got defensive and angry when people were not giving him confirmation that he had a good idea. Maybe he should have said at the outset to limit all feedback to positive only and not benefits and weaknesses of a CF 29er frame. Maybe this would have given him more of what he was looking for? Usually it's tough to get what you want when you ask for something different.
    Every man has inside himself a parasitic being who is acting not at all to his advantage.
    William S. Burroughs

  22. #22
    Feet back and spread 'em!
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    624

    thanks

    [QUOTE=flymybike]now thats a well informed response! hahaQUOTE]

    simple answer to a simple question. But if you'd like more: carbon is expensive, short-life, crack-without-warning, not damage tolerant, not particularly light(in many applications) material. just my experience. YRMV.

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    349
    Maxrep. I appreciate your point(s). I'm also confident that you're a good guy and a true cycling enthusiast. I'm not interested in bickering any more. You and I just don't seem to understand each other. Take care.

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Bigwheel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,394
    The way it appears to me is that a person posted on here to see if anyone else was interested in going in on a CF frameset sourced from overseas and was seeking some advice on geometry. Well, geometry is a subject that generally gets alot of attention here so why not ask? All the sudden folks have him trying to become Trek, whereas I think it was just an offering to fill out a small run of sub $1k frames so that he could end up with one himself for perhaps a bit better price. You can go overseas for a one off but the price drops quickly for any amount over 3 or 4 generally.

    Sure there are risks involved but not any more than those of sending off some dough to XACD for a ti frame which several people on the board have done. If a company has buildt 26" CF frames it is not going to be a huge difference building on for 29" wheels, other than the geometry as the forces affecting the frames are pretty close to the same.

    Yunkie, check your PM's or email me at [email protected] please.
    Last edited by Bigwheel; 02-16-2006 at 12:21 PM.
    A bike by any other name is still a bike.

  25. #25
    Recovering couch patato
    Reputation: Cloxxki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    14,017
    Yunkie, if you're serious about this I'll gladly be of any help to figure out some values that will work for you and your co-buyers. I won't be able to join in myself though.

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    349
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    Yunkie, if you're serious about this I'll gladly be of any help to figure out some values that will work for you and your co-buyers. I won't be able to join in myself though.
    I'm totally serious. The manufacturer is requesting drawings, so if you have a cad or even a psuedo-cad program and can supply a few, that'd be great. Same goes for anyone else reading this. These frames won't be custom, so we're going to have to produce a few "generic" sets of specs/diagrams. You can post 'em here, pm me or email at [email protected].

  27. #27
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,236
    Quote Originally Posted by Yunkie
    I'm totally serious. The manufacturer is requesting drawings, so if you have a cad or even a psuedo-cad program and can supply a few, that'd be great. Same goes for anyone else reading this. These frames won't be custom, so we're going to have to produce a few "generic" sets of specs/diagrams. You can post 'em here, pm me or email at [email protected].
    Please read my other replies.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  28. #28
    Law
    Law is offline
    45 gone, 15 to go
    Reputation: Law's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,237
    All right I said I was done with the thread, but I lied I guess.

    I think that the company he is trying to work with is making stuff for a variety of "manufacturers" and bike companies. Such as Performance Bikes (Specifically the "Forte" parts line of cranks and bars of which I have a couple of things that have proved very worthy). Perhaps the manufacturer is reputable and all they need is to plug numbers? And then does the manufacturer does the rest in Taiwan? Not sure, but perhaps they provide the engineering already in the price? Anyway, I am not sure about the MTB frame thing either, but I would be modestly interested in a carbon cross frame that was cheap enough that I didn't worry about it getting a little beat up. MTB frame is a little less likely being that I am in the middle of a Dean deal that isn't settled yet, but I am likely to be in the end pretty happy with it. But if the planets were aligned...ya never know. Anyway I don't know enough to be 100% comfortable with the manufacturer quite yet, but it is looking better.
    my builder: Neil at Cernitz Bike

  29. #29
    R I D E S T E E L
    Reputation: one1spede's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    646
    Yunkie

    I think you're on track now. My thought is first, no, I wouldn't want a cabon frame. I can't afford a disposable bike. If I could afford one, I might consider a carbon frame for a race-only bike. I personally prefer slightly steeper angles and quicker handling. However, I wouldn't go with cannondales geometry, too short for most anyone to really fit right. (my opinion and experience)

    My second thought is to enlist people in the know. If this is real, hire someone who really knows geometry and someone who really knows carbon. Buy some carbon frames and check them out. You have to start somewhere. And as I'm sure you know, it takes money to make money.

    Another option might be to connect yourself to a smaller manufacturer who knows the 29er game and possibly is familiar with doing business overseas. Just a thought, best of luck.

  30. #30
    no fat chicks
    Reputation: iliketoridebikes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    774
    99.9 percent of the dorks that sit in front of mtbr.com all day are nothing more than armchair engineers when it comes to frame design

    easiest way to get what you want is to benchmark the competition's existing designs and give it a cool name that makes it different


    Quote Originally Posted by Yunkie
    I've been in contact with an overseas company who might be able to make a run of full carbon 29ers. These aren't going to be custom, so what're your opinions on geometry? Also, does anyone feel that carbon has inherent weaknesses that should/need to be addressed? Thanks.
    #1 NORBA elite singlespeed racer 30-34 age group

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation: bigfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    290

    No

    In my eyes CF does not belong on mountain bikes with an exception to seatposts, its to brittle for regular trail riding.
    Just do it, Faster, Better, Lighter.
    bikekitchen.blogspot.com
    Single Minded

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    349
    Quote Originally Posted by iliketoridebikes
    99.9 percent of the dorks that sit in front of mtbr.com all day are nothing more than armchair engineers when it comes to frame design

    easiest way to get what you want is to benchmark the competition's existing designs and give it a cool name that makes it different
    Couldn't agree more - why re-invent the wheel.

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    349

    Pic

    Here's a pic of their 26" model, looks great to me.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  34. #34
    Harmonius Wrench
    Reputation: Guitar Ted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,254

    That is nice looking.

    This is coming from one of the "armchair engineers" so take this with a grain of salt!

    The integrated headset thing is not going to win over many converts and it also causes problems with fork crown clearance. Speaking of, you may want to take a peek at that Niner EMD frame or a Lenz Behemoth for an example of a special downtube that may help clear most fork crowns available.

    I would think that the downtube done in carbon might not prove too difficult, but then again, I am not a materials expert.

    Interesting, but I think that unless these two hurdles are overcome, you may find it hard to peddle this design to the 29"er masses. Just my opinion.
    Riden' an Smilin'
    Guitar Ted

    Blog
    RidingGravel.com

  35. #35
    A_A
    A_A is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: A_A's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    177
    I see carbon fiber in practice at work every day, I work for a large defense contractor. I am not a materials engineer but I am a program manager that has to understand all the processes that go into fabricating products from CF. When CF is done correctly you can get wonderfully strong parts that are significantly lighter than other materials. The biggest issue we have is determining if the parts have any defects. A weld for example can easily be examined visually or with inexpensive tests such as die penetrant. Once a carbon part comes out of the oven or autoclave it can look perfect but have hidden flaws. One consultant that I use regularly has a favorite saying "composites are seldom perfect". I tend to agree with him.

    When it comes to bike parts IMO frames are probably the best application for CF. You have a supported structure as opposed to a seatpost or handlebars that are clamped into a reasonably fixed object (frame or stem) and are subjected to shear forces. That being said I wouldn’t buy a CF frame but that is just me.

    If it is light and cheap I think that people will want a CF frame

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation: PeanutButterBreath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,565

    CF is evolutionary? (nm)

    . . .

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    349
    Where do you see 29ers going?

  38. #38
    Harmonius Wrench
    Reputation: Guitar Ted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,254

    Lot's of ways

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunkie
    Where do you see 29ers going?
    Open ended question, do you mean in as far as carbon frames go, or overall?
    Riden' an Smilin'
    Guitar Ted

    Blog
    RidingGravel.com

  39. #39

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    9
    Serotta is now producing a carbon / ti combo frame for mountain bikes. I am having one built as a 29er and looking forward to it; guess a ride report will help answer some of these questions once it arrives. I have my jeff jones bars ready to go but am still empty handed on the frame for a few weeks.

  40. #40
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Quasi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    1,049
    Quote Originally Posted by iliketoridebikes
    99.9 percent of the dorks that sit in front of mtbr.com all day are nothing more than armchair engineers when it comes to frame design
    That doesn't mean they are stupid and it doesn't mean that they don't have good ideas once in a while. I don't think he was asking us to design and build a CF 29er.

  41. #41
    Law
    Law is offline
    45 gone, 15 to go
    Reputation: Law's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,237
    Quote Originally Posted by trailblzr
    Serotta is now producing a carbon / ti combo frame for mountain bikes. I am having one built as a 29er and looking forward to it; guess a ride report will help answer some of these questions once it arrives. I have my jeff jones bars ready to go but am still empty handed on the frame for a few weeks.

    you must have LOTS of spare cash, I know what those babies run. Wow they are nice though! An ottrott 29er....amazing
    my builder: Neil at Cernitz Bike

  42. #42
    Cassoulet forever !
    Reputation: 20.100 FR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,260
    Yunkie,

    I've been looking to launch home made custom carbon 29er frames for more than one year.
    I'm a (highly qualified) technical person, not a business man.
    I might be interested in working with you as a part time job / consultant, giving technical advice (geometry, CAD, layup, process...).
    I live in France.
    If you are interested, then contact me at [email protected]
    Frenchspeaking 29"ers community site http://VingtNeuf.org

  43. #43
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,236
    Quote Originally Posted by Quasi
    That doesn't mean they are stupid and it doesn't mean that they don't have good ideas once in a while. I don't think he was asking us to design and build a CF 29er.
    He is asking us to design the frame for him
    Quote Originally Posted by Yunkie
    ...The manufacturer is requesting drawings, so if you have a cad or even a psuedo-cad program and can supply a few, that'd be great. Same goes for anyone else reading this. These frames won't be custom, so we're going to have to produce a few "generic" sets of specs/diagrams. You can post 'em here, pm me or email...
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  44. #44
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    349

    Clarification

    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    He is asking us to design the frame for him

    That's not really what I meant. I was just asking for some rough drawings or ideas to send to the manufacturer so as to get a rough idea on price. If I had a cad program, or if anyone wants to let me know where to get one I'll gladly do so. I was delighted to find that there are a few people on this board who can do such a thing. I've already received two detailed drawings, and am waiting on another. Thanks to those who submitted - your support is energizing.

  45. #45
    mtbr member
    Reputation: PeanutButterBreath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,565
    I see more acceptance, more availability, etc.

    There will be CF options, but they won't be any more revolutionary (or more popular) than the 26" CF options. IMO, Orbea etc. are chasing a market, not revolutionizing it. Going CF is pretty old-hat in the bike industry. Club Roost was hawking CF grips at Interbike. I think everything has officially been "done" in CF.

    Someone will sell a few CF 29ers (maybe you), but at the end of the day folks looking for a light bike will go Al, folks looking for a nice ride and durability will go steel and folks who can afford to have it all will go Ti. Again, IMO, CF is a particularly poor choice for a mountain bike frame because of its vulerability to impacts with rocks, trees, other bikes etc. -- stuff you encounter regularly while riding off-road. That is as opposed to on road where CF frames make more sense to me.

  46. #46
    Harmonius Wrench
    Reputation: Guitar Ted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,254

    Well, it all depends..........

    Quote Originally Posted by PeanutButterBreath
    Again, IMO, CF is a particularly poor choice for a mountain bike frame because of its vulerability to impacts with rocks, trees, other bikes etc. -- stuff you encounter regularly while riding off-road. That is as opposed to on road where CF frames make more sense to me.
    If you smack something hard enough with a carbon fiber frame, off road, to actually break it, or even do enough harm to eventually break it, then you probably have hit that object hard enough to roach a thin walled aluminum frame, thin walled steel frame, and possibly a thin walled ti frame.

    Look, I've seen people break everything. I have also seen people ride carbon fiber frames to great success off road. My co-worker races and trains on a full carbon dual susprension bike. One of his bikes is going into it's third season of use. It's seen the rocks of Moab and the roots and gravel and whatnot of 24 hour races from here to Japan and back. No issues.

    You are certainly welcome to your opinion, and you may very well have excellent reasons to not like carbon fiber. However, saying it's not a good material for off road bicycles because it can't take abuse like other materials is not going to convince me. I've seen too many examples of carbon fiber working out just fine to accept that statement.
    Riden' an Smilin'
    Guitar Ted

    Blog
    RidingGravel.com

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Quasi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    1,049
    Quote Originally Posted by trailblzr
    Serotta is now producing a carbon / ti combo frame for mountain bikes. I am having one built as a 29er and looking forward to it; guess a ride report will help answer some of these questions once it arrives. I have my jeff jones bars ready to go but am still empty handed on the frame for a few weeks.
    I think this sounds like the best way to enter carbon into the 29er world. Make a carbon mainframe and two rear assemblies: one for a 26 inch wheel and one for 29 inch wheels. I am sure that ideally the mainframes should have slight differences between the two, maybe a different head tube angle. But a compromise should be acceptable with little loss on the trail for either bike. I don't think the expense of a Ti rear is necessary. Carbon mainframe and Al rear should be fine on a full suspension bike. (Like a Ventana rear)

  48. #48
    mtbr member
    Reputation: PeanutButterBreath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,565
    I don't ride thin walled aluminum, steel or Ti either, except my Cannondale road bike. I don't ride those off road for the very reason you cherry-picked thin walled versions of them to compare to CF. Short story shout -- I want my mountain bikes to be tough and durable. IMO, CF does not provide that without becoming too heavy or too expensive to justify.

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Quasi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    1,049
    Quote Originally Posted by PeanutButterBreath
    I don't ride thin walled aluminum, steel or Ti either, except my Cannondale road bike. I don't ride those off road for the very reason you cherry-picked thin walled versions of them to compare to CF. Short story shout -- I want my mountain bikes to be tough and durable. IMO, CF does not provide that without becoming too heavy or too expensive to justify.
    CAn I go with you on your next ride? I get to ride shotgun.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  50. #50
    Squalor
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,573
    Yunkie - First off good luck in your undertaking.

    Here is a free cad based bike geo program that you can get started with and generate some pretty nice drawings. Lots of framebuilders use the full (read: not free) version in their business.

    http://www.bikeforest.com/CAD/bikeCAD.html

    Prepare to burn some time...it's a fun program.

    I personally am not interested in a carbon frame of any kind, road, cross or MTB. I do not like the way they look, the way they age, or the way they ride, but there seem to be plenty who do like them.

    Again, good luck.

    LP

  51. #51
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    349
    Quote Originally Posted by lanpope
    Yunkie - First off good luck in your undertaking.

    Here is a free cad based bike geo program that you can get started with and generate some pretty nice drawings. Lots of framebuilders use the full (read: not free) version in their business.

    http://www.bikeforest.com/CAD/bikeCAD.html

    Prepare to burn some time...it's a fun program.

    I personally am not interested in a carbon frame of any kind, road, cross or MTB. I do not like the way they look, the way they age, or the way they ride, but there seem to be plenty who do like them.

    Again, good luck.



    LP


    Sweet....Thanks!

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2019 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.