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  1. #1
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    Looks like a nice bike but the small is really a medium, us short people need to move along. I'd rather a company just state they are not going to make a small instead of listing a small that won't fit.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    Looks like a nice bike but the small is really a medium, us short people need to move along. I'd rather a company just state they are not going to make a small instead of listing a small that won't fit.
    Geo charts are a valuable resource.
    All kidding aside, it's too bad there's no standardization in frame sizing, but because of all the variables and personal preferences, there never will be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Geo charts are a valuable resource.
    All kidding aside, it's too bad there's no standardization in frame sizing, but because of all the variables and personal preferences, there never will be.
    =sParty
    True, I mentioned it for those that dont understand how the numbers on the chart line up. But it looks to be sized for average 5'8" unless you used narrow bars.

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    Looks like a nice bike but definitely out of my price range. Rode a new Trail 429 at a local demo event a few weeks back and dont know what all the hype is around the DW Link suspension. May give this a try at another demo next weekend if they have it but really, with no frame only option, definitely not going to be in my price range.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    Looks like a nice bike but definitely out of my price range. Rode a new Trail 429 at a local demo event a few weeks back and dont know what all the hype is around the DW Link suspension. May give this a try at another demo next weekend if they have it but really, with no frame only option, definitely not going to be in my price range.
    It is expensive, isn't it. I guess some fellas want that. Haven't ridden a Firebird 29 (and won't) but I do like the numbers including the 157mm rear hub. I think that's the direction the mountain biking world should turn. Only thing I'd change is bump the STA 2 or 3 degrees steeper. But this is personal preference.

    As for suspension systems, my '11 DW Turner Sultan had the most comfortable suspension I've ridden but the back wheel tended to kick up on jumps. The DW also pedaled well. In fact, until I bought that DW bike, I didn't imagine it was possible to combine plush suspension and top notch climbing traits. But "plush" might be a tad different than "performance" -- I suppose the jury's out on this. I'm now on a Horst Link bike (well, between HL bikes actually -- sold my large Guerrilla Gravity Trail Pistol frame and awaiting an XL GG Smash frame) and I've found the HL bike to be very playful sans lip kick. I also prefer aluminum to CF but again this is personal preference.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    It is expensive, isn't it. I guess some fellas want that. Haven't ridden a Firebird 29 (and won't) but I do like the numbers including the 157mm rear hub. I think that's the direction the mountain biking world should turn. Only thing I'd change is bump the STA 2 or 3 degrees steeper. But this is personal preference.

    As for suspension systems, my '11 DW Turner Sultan had the most comfortable suspension I've ridden but the back wheel tended to kick up on jumps. The DW also pedaled well. In fact, until I bought that DW bike, I didn't imagine it was possible to combine plush suspension and top notch climbing traits. But "plush" might be a tad different than "performance" -- I suppose the jury's out on this. I'm now on a Horst Link bike (well, between HL bikes actually -- sold my large Guerrilla Gravity Trail Pistol frame and awaiting an XL GG Smash frame) and I've found the HL bike to be very playful sans lip kick. I also prefer aluminum to CF but again this is personal preference.
    =sParty
    Yeah see my daily driver is an older HL suspension (Stumpy FSR clone from 2013) and I felt when comparing the two that my current bike pedaled and climbed just as well, if not better than, the Trail 429. It also seemed to do a better job of taking square edge hits than the DW. However, I do feel that if you have to lay down instant power, the DW definitely did that better, but definitely not leaps and bounds like I have heard from some people. I guess it is all personal preference and what you are used to and what terrain you ride.

    I am with you on the whole CF thing, now have 3 friends locally that have cracked CF wheels (good stuff too) and are just waiting for a full detonation to replace. I am too hard on my bikes to consider CF being a safe bet for me. I can't wait to get my GG Smash!!

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    A lot of DW bikes have a lot of ramp up near sag. This can make them catch/ hang up on stuff but still feel good deeper in travel. IMHO Turner and Ibis do DW better. I'd consider a Piviot if they did frame only since I'd have a shock to get ride of some of the hang up. I like GG bikes they're sort of the opposite they ramp up mid travel to support turns. and landings but dont hang and kick.

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    Iíve looked for info on a frame only option. No luck. Are people assuming it wonít be available because itís not listed in the build options or because Pivot said they wonít be offering it?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    Iíve looked for info on a frame only option. No luck. Are people assuming it wonít be available because itís not listed in the build options or because Pivot said they wonít be offering it?
    Both.
    Pivot decided to offer only full builds, frame only wont be an option.
    They did the same with the Swichblade.

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    No frame only option and super boost sure shuts out a lot of customers. My though it there isnít much profit in frame only. They are making money on full builds.

    You pretty much have to be a fanboy to go Pivot right now.
    Last edited by fiveo; 06-21-2018 at 03:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fiveo View Post
    No frame only option and super boost sure shuts out a lot of customers. My though it there isnít much profit in frame only. They are making money on full builds.

    You pretty much have o be a fanboy to go Pivot right now.
    157mm makes more sense than 148mm ever did. But no frame only kills it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    157mm makes more sense than 148mm ever did. But no frame only kills it.
    Does it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fiveo View Post
    No frame only option and super boost sure shuts out a lot of customers. My though it there isnít much profit in frame only. They are making money on full builds.

    You pretty much have o be a fanboy to go Pivot right now.
    Agreed. Here's a quote I plucked from the Firebird 29 thread on the Pivot mfgr forum (evidently dan23 works for Pivot):
    Quote Originally Posted by dan23 View Post
    It is currently not in the plans from Chris to sell frame only options. After talking to many of our dealers, they aren't seeing the demand for a frame only option. Most customers love our build options, and only need to change a few minor items to fit their needs.
    I'm retired these days but before that I spent 40 years in sales and dan23's words reek of sales spin. Sorry Dan, I don't mean to knock what you're doing -- you're paid to do it. It's your job, you have to spin stuff. But that thing about lack of demand for frames only seems like a lame way to brush the issue off. Having a frame only option does not preclude the sale of full bikes. Regardless of whether the next line is true (is it?) -- "...customers love our build options..." -- so what? Offer frames, too. Many of the most dedicated, avid mountain bikers choose to build their bikes from the frame up, choosing every component. It's something that makes our sport unique and allows individual riders to feel that their specific bike is truly special.

    If anyone thinks I'm bashing Pivot, I'll go on record: Pivot makes awesome bikes. I'd love to own one. A friend of mine recently bought a Switchblade and it is an amazingly capable machine. Guess I'm just tired of hearing sales spin... plus I'd like my friends who want a Pivot frame to be able to buy one instead of having to choose an alternate brand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Agreed. Here's a quote I plucked from the Firebird 29 thread on the Pivot mfgr forum (evidently dan23 works for Pivot):

    I'm retired these days but before that I spent 40 years in sales and dan23's words reek of sales spin. Sorry Dan, I don't mean to knock what you're doing -- you're paid to do it. It's your job, you have to spin stuff. But that thing about lack of demand for frames only seems like a lame way to brush the issue off. Having a frame only option does not preclude the sale of full bikes. Regardless of whether the next line is true (is it?) -- "...customers love our build options..." -- so what? Offer frames, too. Many of the most dedicated, avid mountain bikers choose to build their bikes from the frame up, choosing every component. It's something that makes our sport unique and allows individual riders to feel that their specific bike is truly special.

    If anyone thinks I'm bashing Pivot, I'll go on record: Pivot makes awesome bikes. I'd love to own one. A friend of mine recently bought a Switchblade and it is an amazingly capable machine. Guess I'm just tired of hearing sales spin... plus I'd like my friends who want a Pivot frame to be able to buy one instead of having to choose an alternate brand.
    =sParty
    Agreed. I have a shock and fork I love. Both custom tuned for me. I have a wheel set and drive train and brakes I love. A new rear hub, and having the shock revalved for the bike would be much cheaper and also make the bike more enjoyable for me.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by McKenzie View Post
    Does it?
    boost shouldnít exist, we already had 157mm when sram created boost trying to achieve the same results you can achieve using 157mm, but now we have this dumb boost and superboost spacing!

    should have moved to 157 on long travel bikes and kept 142 on trail/xc bikes!

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    I follow all the Pivot threads. My shop is one of , if not the biggest Pivot dealer. Iím located in Phoenix. I looked real hard at the older 429 Trail last year when I got my new bike

    I call BS too that customers donít want frame options. I read it all the time. ďNo frame option and super boost, Iím outĒ

    People want to build there own bikes and do frame swaps. My self included. Iím sticking with more profit margin on full builds.

    Capitalism works

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    Quote Originally Posted by fiveo View Post
    I follow all the Pivot threads. My shop is one of , if not the biggest Pivot dealer. Iím located in Phoenix. I looked real hard at the older 429 Trail last year when I got my new bike

    I call BS too that customers donít want frame options. I read it all the time. ďNo frame option and super boost, Iím outĒ

    People want to build there own bikes and do frame swaps. My self included. Iím sticking with more profit margin on full builds.

    Capitalism works
    I get it and I appreciate your honesty. Thank you.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    157mm makes more sense than 148mm ever did. But no frame only kills it.
    Quote Originally Posted by mfa81 View Post
    boost shouldnít exist, we already had 157mm when sram created boost trying to achieve the same results you can achieve using 157mm, but now we have this dumb boost and superboost spacing!


    should have moved to 157 on long travel bikes and kept 142 on trail/xc bikes!
    While agree now that 148 has been implemented the way it has. Having a Lenz lunchbox at the time I was all for 148 when it was first talked about. I didn't care for the wider Q cranks I had to run on the LB. I remember reading the original 'idea' was it was the widest they could go and maintain the narrow Q-Factor. If they had stuck with that then 148 would have been very useful. They should have skipped 142 and went with 148 and maintained the ability to run narrow cranks.

    Since none of the manufacturers stuck with the narrow Q-Factor it made 148 a pretty stupid standard.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    Both.
    Pivot decided to offer only full builds, frame only wont be an option.
    They did the same with the Swichblade.

    Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
    They actually sell frame only Switchblades in EU for 3.500 EUR (incl. tax).

    It may be another market/customer/target group and their connection to Germany (their website comes in English and German only and the e-bike was initially only intended for the EU market I understand), but I hardly know anyone in Germany who has a stock bike. Pretty much all my friends run heavy duty customized (given street prices for certain aftermarket parts are realistically ~60% off MSRP vs. U.S. domestic online shops advertise 20% off at Black Friday as the next slice of bread) or entire custom builds.

    Also more generally speaking, I have the impression the average bike in EU is cheaper (AL selected over carbon etc.) and with similar specs a >6000 EUR basic built bike in the home turfs of YT, Canyon, Propain, Radon... may have a more challenging market position.

    From what Iíve read here Pivot is just doing brick and mortar stores a favor. Nothing to be said against that.


    However, IMO at that price point of bikes (generally speaking) complete builds should be offered in a VERY basic spec. - in other words full on frame, fork, shock - all the personalization and/or wear & tear and sooner-or-later replacement-items just making the bike a bike over a bunch of parts; ie. I couldnít care less about a >$100 carbon fiber handlebar that Iíd replace anyways.
    On this note, it is easier to sneak a monthly $200 spend by your s/o vs. one $10K break-the-bank event. *muharhar*
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoomShakkaLagga View Post
    They actually sell frame only Switchblades in EU for 3.500 EUR (incl. tax).

    It may be another market/customer/target group and their connection to Germany (their website comes in English and German only and the e-bike was initially only intended for the EU market I understand), but I hardly know anyone in Germany who has a stock bike. Pretty much all my friends run heavy duty customized (given street prices for certain aftermarket parts are realistically ~60% off MSRP vs. U.S. domestic online shops advertise 20% off at Black Friday as the next slice of bread) or entire custom builds.

    Also more generally speaking, I have the impression the average bike in EU is cheaper (AL selected over carbon etc.) and with similar specs a >6000 EUR basic built bike in the home turfs of YT, Canyon, Propain, Radon... may have a more challenging market position.

    From what Iíve read here Pivot is just doing brick and mortar stores a favor. Nothing to be said against that.


    However, IMO at that price point of bikes (generally speaking) complete builds should be offered in a VERY basic spec. - in other words full on frame, fork, shock - all the personalization and/or wear & tear and sooner-or-later replacement-items just making the bike a bike over a bunch of parts; ie. I couldnít care less about a >$100 carbon fiber handlebar that Iíd replace anyways.
    On this note, it is easier to sneak a monthly $200 spend by your s/o vs. one $10K break-the-bank event. *muharhar*
    How is it a favor when the brick and mortar can order a frame? I wanted a SC TB3 frame, walked into my local LBS and ordered it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    Looks like a nice bike but the small is really a medium, us short people need to move along. I'd rather a company just state they are not going to make a small instead of listing a small that won't fit.
    can't really see that ppl 5'4" cant ride this bike in a small. shortish toptube, shortish seattube, low standover shortish reach... should be perfect. The woman i live with rides a bike with similar geo, but with higher standover and longer seat tube. She is 5'6" and says she whould have gotten a size larger if she bought the same bike again. But for her the seat tube length was the limiting factor. A person 5'8" should probably choose the medium. What I can't understand is why they are holding on to the slack seat tube angle and still fairly long seat tube for the given size. But this bike is probably not made for me, but for someone else.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    How is it a favor when the brick and mortar can order a frame? I wanted a SC TB3 frame, walked into my local LBS and ordered it.
    Further up someone was talking about margins of complete builds vs frames (assuming that most folks finish shopping online) #metoo

    With about a 30% profit on a 10K bike that is quite a bit more than on your 3K frame only. I am totally guilty on buying the big/warranty relevant stuff at LBS and the throwaway-donít-wanna-hazzle-with-warranties crap parts online too and would be interested in a test ride and possible frame swap if a frame only option for this one was available.


    Btw., did not intend to start an OT LBS/online topic, but the different marketing approaches in different regions I find interesting.
    IMTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrPaulus View Post
    can't really see that ppl 5'4" cant ride this bike in a small. shortish toptube, shortish seattube, low standover shortish reach... should be perfect. The woman i live with rides a bike with similar geo, but with higher standover and longer seat tube. She is 5'6" and says she whould have gotten a size larger if she bought the same bike again. But for her the seat tube length was the limiting factor. A person 5'8" should probably choose the medium. What I can't understand is why they are holding on to the slack seat tube angle and still fairly long seat tube for the given size. But this bike is probably not made for me, but for someone else.
    With a 594 ETT that is really stretched out for someone 5'6" while seated. While standing it's a lot of bike to control unless you like to just smash into things. Someone who is 5'6" that likes a bike like this (I'm 5'6") would choose a medium anyway since 5'6" is typically the tweener size of between small and medium.

    If you look at the Ibis Ripmo it is sized more for at least giving the option of nimble vs plow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoomShakkaLagga View Post
    Further up someone was talking about margins of complete builds vs frames (assuming that most folks finish shopping online) #metoo

    With about a 30% profit on a 10K bike that is quite a bit more than on your 3K frame only. I am totally guilty on buying the big/warranty relevant stuff at LBS and the throwaway-donít-wanna-hazzle-with-warranties crap parts online too and would be interested in a test ride and possible frame swap if a frame only option for this one was available.


    Btw., did not intend to start an OT LBS/online topic, but the different marketing approaches in different regions I find interesting.
    It's not a LBS vs online. It's does noting to help a lost sale. Maybe more people throw money around than I think, but if I'm shopping and have a bunch of high end parts I want to hang on a frame, I'm not buying a complete just to replace 95% of it.
    Last edited by TwoTone; 06-28-2018 at 03:09 PM.
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  26. #26
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    On this note, NPR Planet Money Episode #672 (Bagginí the Birkin) may help explain why none of us is complaining that this thing is too big to transport in our Ferrari...

    https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=1000394668272

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    It's easy to get frame only if you have a dope bike shop. My LBS orders the bike you want, sells you the frame and then just sells the parts off the frame. Boom...frame only option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phlegm420 View Post
    It's easy to get frame only if you have a dope bike shop. My LBS orders the bike you want, sells you the frame and then just sells the parts off the frame. Boom...frame only option.
    The problem is the parts are such crap on these completes youíd probably only get $1000 back. Not to mention the cranks and rear hub are only compatible with like 1% of bikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    The problem is the parts are such crap on these completes youíd probably only get $1000 back. Not to mention the cranks and rear hub are only compatible with like 1% of bikes.
    Exactly I have parts I'd prefer to use. And wouldn't get 3k back from selling off everything. Nor do I want to take the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    Exactly I have parts I'd prefer to use. And wouldn't get 3k back from selling off everything. Nor do I want to take the time.
    I still want one of these really bad! I havenít ridden it, but I know it will climb well and just let you beast mode through the gnar. I had a lot of time on the fb27, loved it! But ultimately the wreckoning won out.

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    Coming from a Lenz Lunchbox I would have loved to put one of the 3 157mm rear wheels into the FB29 but there is no frame only option. I called Pivot and the Customer Service confirmed that they will not sell frame only anytime soon and they prob won't ever. Their reasoning is that someone may put the wrong size hub into it and damage the frame etc, this is total BS if you ask me. They just want to increase their margins with complete builds.
    I had mentioned to Pivot CS that my build is nicer than their high-end build and I just needed to swap over the parts. I had tried to explain to them that a lot of people like to buy a frame and build it up or change over existing parts and they will lose some business. Apparently Pivot is so hot right now that they don't care about the small percentage of FB29, Switchblades, and 429 Trails that they won't sell in frame only option.

    Weak Pivot, very weak..

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    Quote Originally Posted by nolan17 View Post
    Coming from a Lenz Lunchbox I would have loved to put one of the 3 157mm rear wheels into the FB29 but there is no frame only option. I called Pivot and the Customer Service confirmed that they will not sell frame only anytime soon and they prob won't ever. Their reasoning is that someone may put the wrong size hub into it and damage the frame etc, this is total BS if you ask me. They just want to increase their margins with complete builds.
    I had mentioned to Pivot CS that my build is nicer than their high-end build and I just needed to swap over the parts. I had tried to explain to them that a lot of people like to buy a frame and build it up or change over existing parts and they will lose some business. Apparently Pivot is so hot right now that they don't care about the small percentage of FB29, Switchblades, and 429 Trails that they won't sell in frame only option.

    Weak Pivot, very weak..

    -Nolan
    Fortunately for everyone who won't be purchasing a 2018 membership in Club Pivot, there are plenty of other excellent frames available, though not so many compatible with your existing wheels.
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  33. #33
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    Pivot Firebird 29

    The more I think about it the more pissed I am at Pivot. I heard the same thing about the super boost hub confusion when I called last week. If they are so worried about people not understanding their hub standard then use a more common standard! I have generally liked the pivots I have ridden and owned. But they are constantly doing the lame shit we hate about the industry and not helping customers. Not selling frame only just to force people into bikes shops for crap builds is disingenuous and not helping customers in 2018.

    Another example is when they released a new Mach 6 in 2016 with the boost rear spacing so they could sell more bikes and parts, but they left the reach ridiculously short and proclaimed long reach is a fad, that a large with 414mm reach is ideal Enduro geometry. Then they proceeded to release bike after bike with modern reach. Even the small switchblade (also a 2016 bike) has a longer reach than the large Ď16 m6. All of those frame are so out of date theyíre unsellable, 2 years later!

    Another thing is their awful sticker jobs with the brands name written 50 times on a single frame... makes me think Cocalis has a tiny wiener and a big ego.

    There are a lot more things to hate about Pivot. Like flexy rear ends, inability to run coil shocks (except for the $1200 one) and severely overpriced builds.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Fortunately for everyone who won't be purchasing a 2018 membership in Club Pivot, there are plenty of other excellent frames available, though not so many compatible with your existing wheels.
    =sParty
    Knolly would be happy to sell just the frame to fit his wheel set. At the moment they only have a short and mid travel option.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    The more I think about it the more pissed I am at Pivot. I heard the same thing about the super boost hub confusion when I called last week. If they are so worried about people not understanding their hub standard then use a more common standard! I have generally liked the pivots I have ridden and owned. But they are constantly doing the lame shit we hate about the industry and not helping customers. Not selling frame only just to force people into bikes shops for crap builds is disingenuous and not helping customers in 2018.

    Another example is when they released a new Mach 6 in 2016 with the boost rear spacing so they could sell more bikes and parts, but they left the reach ridiculously short and proclaimed long reach is a fad, that a large with 414mm reach is ideal Enduro geometry. Then they proceeded to release bike after bike with modern reach. Even the small switchblade (also a 2016 bike) has a longer reach than the large Ď16 m6. All of those frame are so out of date theyíre unsellable, 2 years later!

    Another thing is their awful sticker jobs with the brands name written 50 times on a single frame... makes me think Cocalis has a tiny wiener and a big ego.

    There are a lot more things to hate about Pivot. Like flexy rear ends and overpriced builds.
    Yeah I've been told that about the hubs.. There isnt any way to mess up the frame of someone were to put a standard 157 hub in the frame. Which I think should have been standard a long time ago. Now with carbon and hydroforming. The chainstays can be shaped with a decent Q factor.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    Knolly would be happy to sell just the frame to fit his wheel set. At the moment they only have a short and mid travel option.
    Apparently Devinci buyers must tend to be smarter than Pivot buyers. Frame only Troy 29er with Super Boost DEVINCI
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    This is already on my radar. I'm thinking about getting the Troy and one of their short travel frames. And just deal with 2 bikes.

  38. #38
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    On mtb-news.de someone is talking about availability of a frameset incl. crank as of August in Germany.
    IMTB

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    I think it's a rad bike, I'm just not that rad of a rider to justify this thing, truth be told.

    Still I really dig it. To me, it's a perfect park bike.

  40. #40
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    Couple of things I have noticed when reading this thread. You can get a frame only, just have to know who to talk to. I will leave it at that. I don't think the 157mm superboost is a real issue. Now listen, I understand people like to bring their wheel sets over and i do as well. However, I find it easier to sell my old bikes with the sets and then just buy new. I also don't agree with the overpriced builds as compared to a niner or yeti or ibis. I think Pivot has some very aggressive price points and components. I would be naive to say that I don't ride Pivot exclusively and get my bikes discounted. I think those looking for a park bike who do not want to go the phoenix route, the firebird is the way to go. I have a 2018 Mach 6 that I built as a frame only setup for park and its an incredible ride. I'm likely to add a Firebird to my Mach 6 and 429SL because it is just an excellent bike. Someone mentioned above the DW link not being really what its cracked up to be. I will say this, if you do not set your suspension up correctly, your assertion would be correct. It will get hung up and want to eject you. At the same time, CVA and Masetro (just picking two others) will do the exact same thing so to each own.
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  41. #41
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    Is Pivot the mtb'in equivalent of Apple?

    Trying to lock consumers into their ecosystem?

    Look at the guy with 4/5/6 Pivots!!

    Once he steps outside, he'll see a whole world of possibilities ;-P

    'Born to ride!'
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealtharsenal1 View Post
    Couple of things I have noticed when reading this thread. You can get a frame only, just have to know who to talk to. I will leave it at that. I don't think the 157mm superboost is a real issue. Now listen, I understand people like to bring their wheel sets over and i do as well. However, I find it easier to sell my old bikes with the sets and then just buy new. I also don't agree with the overpriced builds as compared to a niner or yeti or ibis. I think Pivot has some very aggressive price points and components. I would be naive to say that I don't ride Pivot exclusively and get my bikes discounted. I think those looking for a park bike who do not want to go the phoenix route, the firebird is the way to go. I have a 2018 Mach 6 that I built as a frame only setup for park and its an incredible ride. I'm likely to add a Firebird to my Mach 6 and 429SL because it is just an excellent bike. Someone mentioned above the DW link not being really what its cracked up to be. I will say this, if you do not set your suspension up correctly, your assertion would be correct. It will get hung up and want to eject you. At the same time, CVA and Masetro (just picking two others) will do the exact same thing so to each own.
    Fanboy shit

  43. #43
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    You guys are high if you think a $10K bike has a 30% margin. Bike shops actually make higher % margins on lower end builds. I'm not talking out of my ass, here. I have a close friend who owns a shop and I know what Employee pricing is on highend bikes, including Pivots. And, EP is typically lower than dealer cost.

    Manufacturing and selling bikes is a for profit business and shops don't keep the doors open by selling highend bikes. They do it by selling $1-2K bikes and selling tubes...
    Hunt Hard, Kill Swiftly, Waste Nothing, Offer No Apologies...

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamis View Post
    They do it by selling $1-2K bikes and selling tubeless...
    fify
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    The reason they aren't selling frames probably has to do with the combination of super-boost and the reduced offset fork.

    The guys at Transition went the same route, they had to facilitate purchasing of both the forks (direct from Transition, since you couldn't source one from Fox) and the frames. It sounded like it was kindof a pain for them to deal with, because people were trying to buy reduced offset forks when they didn't own Transition bikes (which meant Transition owners couldn't locate a fork). My guess is Pivot wants to avoid dealing with that scenario.

    If you consider most people aren't going to have super boost hubs laying around and reduced rake forks are still somewhat difficult to come by, they probably figure most people are going to buy full builds and don't want to mess with dealing out forks, too. Kindof lazy IMO, but I suspect that's why you have to buy a full build.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    The reason they aren't selling frames probably has to do with the combination of super-boost and the reduced offset fork.

    The guys at Transition went the same route, they had to facilitate purchasing of both the forks (direct from Transition, since you couldn't source one from Fox) and the frames. It sounded like it was kindof a pain for them to deal with, because people were trying to buy reduced offset forks when they didn't own Transition bikes (which meant Transition owners couldn't locate a fork). My guess is Pivot wants to avoid dealing with that scenario.

    If you consider most people aren't going to have super boost hubs laying around and reduced rake forks are still somewhat difficult to come by, they probably figure most people are going to buy full builds and don't want to mess with dealing out forks, too. Kindof lazy IMO, but I suspect that's why you have to buy a full build.
    Right since no other 150mm hub will work. They should put one of those bright orange warning stickers on the frame. WARNING using a non Super Duper Boost Hub could lead to serious injury and even death!
    OG Ripley v2

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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Right since no other 150mm hub will work. They should put one of those bright orange warning stickers on the frame. WARNING using a non Super Duper Boost Hub could lead to serious injury and even death!
    Just for fun's sake...that would actually be kinda cool.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Right since no other 150mm hub will work. They should put one of those bright orange warning stickers on the frame. WARNING using a non Super Duper Boost Hub could lead to serious injury and even death!
    If Piviot really felt that you have to use a certain hub, they could sell the frame only with a hub.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    If Piviot really felt that you have to use a certain hub, they could sell the frame only with a hub.
    And a crank.
    IMTB

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiveo View Post
    I follow all the Pivot threads. My shop is one of , if not the biggest Pivot dealer. Iím located in Phoenix. I looked real hard at the older 429 Trail last year when I got my new bike

    I call BS too that customers donít want frame options. I read it all the time. ďNo frame option and super boost, Iím outĒ

    People want to build there own bikes and do frame swaps. My self included. Iím sticking with more profit margin on full builds.

    Capitalism works
    not sure how it is in Pivot's home town, but on the east coast there are 2 types of people I've ever seen on Pivots:
    1: very well-heeled, old white guys that just started riding in the last 3-4 years. Many former triathletes (not roadies, but runners who ride stupid-expensive bikes), who don't know enough to even buy grips without someone telling them which ones will fit. Totally not kidding: I had someone ask if I knew if XT pedals would fit his pivot crank.

    and 2: people that bought their bikes used from group 1.

    that said, I understand the 'no market for frames' statement. I've never met anyone who bought a pivot new that could have specified parts that would work.

    The firebird 29 is really, really close to what I'm looking for, but the fact that I'm stuck with stupid builds (where you have to get an XTR derailleur to get the fork I want), and the fact that they said no coil shocks (honestly, on a bike like this? Again, air shocks only on a bike like this is a clear sign it's aimed at dentists with a lot more money than knowledge).

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joules View Post
    The firebird 29 is really, really close to what I'm looking for, but the fact that I'm stuck with stupid builds (where you have to get an XTR derailleur to get the fork I want), and the fact that they said no coil shocks (honestly, on a bike like this? Again, air shocks only on a bike like this is a clear sign it's aimed at dentists with a lot more money than knowledge).
    It is actually not like the coil is a no go for Firebid 29. Read the FAQ on the Pivot website:

    "Although the Firebird 29 features a rising rate design that functions with coil-over shocks, the clevis design adds additional leverage to the shock shaft and internal piston bushing that can result in premature wear of the shock or in the case of some shock brands, a total failure of the shock shaft so we do not recommend running a coil-over. For maximum performance and durability, we recommend staying with the Pivot specíd FOX Float X2 shock (or DPX2 on our race builds). The FOX Float X2 air shock, Rock Shox Super Delux or Vivid Air and most any other DH based air shock design features a tunable spring curve for better overall performance with the Firebird 29ís linkage design. The Pivot Factory Racing DH World Cup team has the option of running either the FOX X2 air or coil and each member of the Pivot Factory Racing team has found the air shock to offer better performance and control and ultimately faster times on the race course. If you absolutely insist on running a coil-over shock on your Firebird 29, then either run the FOX X2 and be prepared to service the shock at short intervals to prevent failure and potential damage to the frame or the PUSH industries ElevenSIX shock which features an oversize shock shaft and bushing, as well as a captured spring at both ends of the shock. If you choose to run this shock, it is the userís responsibility to follow the tune guidelines that PUSH provides and also service the shock at much shorter intervals. Any frame damage occurring due to shock failure from using any shock other than the Pivot supplied FOX Float X2 or DPX2 will not be covered under warranty."

    Tha fact, that a coil shock is not a direct option when buying the bike is a different thing. Anyway, there is ton of other bike brands with same approach. For example Devinci - a heard that Spartan works great on coil, but you can get the frame/bike with an air shock only. Same goes for YT Capra etc.

  52. #52
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    all of you shut up you sound ridiculous. this bike rips and I don't care if you're a dentist or someone who's just bummed you can't afford the thing....it rips and is unmatched. I've ridden all of them and this thing does long travel 29 best.

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    I don't blame pivot for not selling frame only options. Shitty builds perform poorly and bring the brand image down. It would be like if Lamborghini started selling rolling body packages for punters to cram any old engine in..

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ButtersNZ View Post
    I don't blame pivot for not selling frame only options. Shitty builds perform poorly and bring the brand image down. It would be like if Lamborghini started selling rolling body packages for punters to cram any old engine in..
    Man you're on the money. Pivot's brand image is soo much better than say Santa Cruz, Trek, Rocky Mountain, Devinci and ... well I think you get the point.

    It is funny to see the ridiculous crap people come up with to justify something.
    OG Ripley v2

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    Quote Originally Posted by ButtersNZ View Post
    I don't blame pivot for not selling frame only options. Shitty builds perform poorly and bring the brand image down. It would be like if Lamborghini started selling rolling body packages for punters to cram any old engine in..
    Not really. Lambo's "brand image" is not only the "frame", but the whole chassis and engine, which are made by them and/or their parent company, Volkswagen. Pivot's brand image is their frame, and I doubt if anyone would spend 2.5-3k on one and put a "shitty" build on it. What would that be, anyway? And do they seriously not trust their customers/shops enough to think they would ruin one of their frames with the build? That says a lot if they don't...
    You can't buy happiness. But you can buy a bike. And that's pretty close.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmanInTheD View Post
    I doubt if anyone would spend 2.5-3k on one and put a "shitty" build on it. What would that be, anyway?
    That would be any of the relatively affordable pivot builds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BmanInTheD View Post
    Not really. Lambo's "brand image" is not only the "frame", but the whole chassis and engine, which are made by them and/or their parent company, Volkswagen. Pivot's brand image is their frame, and I doubt if anyone would spend 2.5-3k on one and put a "shitty" build on it. What would that be, anyway? And do they seriously not trust their customers/shops enough to think they would ruin one of their frames with the build? That says a lot if they don't...
    This

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    That would be any of the relatively affordable pivot builds.
    So someone says that they don't want to sell frame only cuz they're worried that people would put a shitty build on it and tarnish their brand image but then someone else says that some of the Pivot builds are shitty? I'm SO confused!
    You can't buy happiness. But you can buy a bike. And that's pretty close.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmanInTheD View Post
    So someone says that they don't want to sell frame only cuz they're worried that people would put a shitty build on it and tarnish their brand image but then someone else says that some of the Pivot builds are shitty? I'm SO confused!
    No. Im just saying the factory builds on the FB29 are shit for the price. Im disappointed theyre not selling frames only. Im sure this thing rips. But has to be one of the worst values, ie poor investments available now. Whatís the real reason theyíre not selling frames only? I have no clue. There has to be big profit in $3k+ frame sets. When I called the rep claimed it was bc of lack of availability and knowledge of super boost plus. Pretty lame.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    No. Im just saying the factory builds on the FB29 are shit for the price. Im disappointed theyre not selling frames only. Im sure this thing rips. But has to be one of the worst values, ie poor investments available now. Whatís the real reason theyíre not selling frames only? I have no clue. There has to be big profit in $3k+ frame sets. When I called the rep claimed it was bc of lack of availability and knowledge of super boost plus. Pretty lame.
    It's been said- Pivot thinks it's customers are morons and are going to put a 148 wheel in there and crack the frame.
    OG Ripley v2

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by ButtersNZ View Post
    I don't blame pivot for not selling frame only options. Shitty builds perform poorly and bring the brand image down. It would be like if Lamborghini started selling rolling body packages for punters to cram any old engine in..
    I knew there was a reason I was saving my Huffy cranks and brakes from 1983. I guess I could reuse the bars also. Do you think it will be okay if I use these parts on a used Mach 429 Trail or would that hurt Pivot's above standard reputation?

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    It's been said- Pivot thinks it's customers are morons and are going to put a 148 wheel in there and crack the frame.
    You ever consider just letting it go and not being so singularly negative?
    Just like a raindrop, I was born to fall.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    .....Whatís the real reason theyíre not selling frames only? I have no clue. There has to be big profit in $3k+ frame sets. When I called the rep claimed it was bc of lack of availability and knowledge of super boost plus. Pretty lame.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    You ever consider just letting it go and not being so singularly negative?
    I was just responding to his comment. Honestly how am I the negative one, Pivot is telling people its a reason they won't sell frame only. I'm just being blunt without the marketing filter.
    OG Ripley v2

  64. #64
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    I rode the FB29 at a demo day. Actually liked it so much followed the demo crew to there Sunday location too and rode it a second day. Amazed how it climbs and can even do tight st very nicely. Of course it is super stable at speed in the chunk and never becomes unsettled. Incredible bike and will be my next!

    Lots of nice bikes out there. If anyone doesn't like the build kits go look at something else. Amazing the repeated complaining by the same people. Maybe less forum time and more ride time would be more productive.

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    As a lot of people have stated Piviot isnt saving their image not doing frame only. If I bought the bike over half of the components would be switched for preference or fit. I dont want to spend 2-3k more for items I dont want.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    As a lot of people have stated Piviot isnt saving their image not doing frame only. If I bought the bike over half of the components would be switched for preference or fit. I dont want to spend 2-3k more for items I dont want.
    So buy something else. Apparently Pivot is selling everything they produce so for the few in the minority that constantly complain are not effecting Pivots sales numbers,

    Personally anything i change out either upgrades one of my other bikes or gets sold off or goes back on the bike when i sell it. Pretty simple really if you want a Pivot.

    Oh and i am not a dentist, doctor or lawyer. LOL

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by mxer View Post
    So buy something else. Apparently Pivot is selling everything they produce so for the few in the minority that constantly complain are not effecting Pivots sales numbers,

    Personally anything i change out either upgrades one of my other bikes or gets sold off or goes back on the bike when i sell it. Pretty simple really if you want a Pivot.

    Oh and i am not a dentist, doctor or lawyer. LOL
    I think it also comes down to Pivot completing disregarding we the people and what we want. After all we are the ones spending a large sum of cash and wanting to ride their bike due to the great suspension design and the way it rides. Yesterday was pretty clear that another bike company clearly listened to we the people, even it it hindered the sleek look of the design. People are still pissed because Pivot did the opposite. Pretty simple to me, start selling frame only because that's what us consumers want.

    Actually I think it's pretty clear that between the 2 latest 29ers, Pivot would have at least a minimum of 50 frames sold by now at 3K a pop, so yes there is plenty of revenue lost by not selling a frame only.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chicane32 View Post
    I think it also comes down to Pivot completing disregarding we the people and what we want. After all we are the ones spending a large sum of cash and wanting to ride their bike due to the great suspension design and the way it rides. Yesterday was pretty clear that another bike company clearly listened to we the people, even it it hindered the sleek look of the design. People are still pissed because Pivot did the opposite. Pretty simple to me, start selling frame only because that's what us consumers want.

    Actually I think it's pretty clear that between the 2 latest 29ers, Pivot would have at least a minimum of 50 frames sold by now at 3K a pop, so yes there is plenty of revenue lost by not selling a frame only.
    Apparently Pivots sales figures say they do not need to sell frame only. Not hard to figure out since they aren't doing frame only.

    In the mean time buy something else. That will show them! They might have to close the doors. LOL

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by mxer View Post
    So buy something else. Apparently Pivot is selling everything they produce so for the few in the minority that constantly complain are not effecting Pivots sales numbers,

    Personally anything i change out either upgrades one of my other bikes or gets sold off or goes back on the bike when i sell it. Pretty simple really if you want a Pivot.

    Oh and i am not a dentist, doctor or lawyer. LOL
    So, in other words, you just came here to complain about other people complaining.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by mxer View Post
    In the mean time buy something else.
    I really wanted the FB29 but no frame only option was not an option for me, my parts spec is better than their high-end build. So you know what I did, I found Guerrilla Gravity and their lovely Smash frame. Not regretting the decision one bit!! I'm just one of the many people who spent their money elsewhere because of a lame ass decision from Pivot. So yes they are losing some market share from the many of us who prefer to build up our own bikes.

    -Nolan

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolan17 View Post
    I really wanted the FB29 but no frame only option was not an option for me, my parts spec is better than their high-end build. So you know what I did, I found Guerrilla Gravity and their lovely Smash frame. Not regretting the decision one bit!! I'm just one of the many people who spent their money elsewhere because of a lame ass decision from Pivot. So yes they are losing some market share from the many of us who prefer to build up our own bikes.

    -Nolan
    Only losing a couple hundred thousand in revenue which apparently is no big deal to a multi Million dollar bike company like Pivot. Does that sound about right mxer?

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chicane32 View Post
    Only losing a couple hundred thousand in revenue which apparently is no big deal to a multi Million dollar bike company like Pivot.
    Well I think anyone losing a couple hundred grand in the bike industry is going to think its a big deal even to a multi-million dollar company. Chris Cocalis is worried about the $300-$750 increase in price of his bikes if the tariffs go through next year

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-i...orts-2018.html

    Pivot is losing money in sales from not selling a frame only option, there is no question. What they are doing is giving up market share to other bike manufacturers as us frame only guys go somewhere else. What bothers us is the lame excuses they are giving us when it comes down to money, they make way more off the complete build than the frame only option, we get that. But then the outrage of the tariffs coming up, it will cost more for a bike ($300-$750 per $5k bike), therefore Pivot will pass the cost to the consumer and may turn off a few % of us from them, again costing all manufacturers not just Pivot sales numbers. Will they then come up with frame only options to supplement the lack of sales? The irony is they are ok with losing the frame only sales but worry about the tariffs, seems to me they should be trying to sell every bike they can any way they can while they can even if its a just a frame.

    My $.02

    -Nolan

  73. #73
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    Maybe Pivot is comfortable with their place in the market. Pivot makes their bikes, sells full builds only, and sells a bunch of them. Not everyone wants to be Giant, Spec, and Trek. Maybe Pivot just likes being Pivot???

    Thereís tons of frame only options, buy one of those.

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    I was also looking for a F29 frame but since they don't sell them separately I bought a Sentinel instead.

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    I bought one, XO1 Pro. I thought the stock build was pretty close to what Iíd build and I just specíd a frame only SB100 and knew exactly what I wanted.

    Separately, perhaps we need a me too movement in the forum for rich, old white guys that like to ride. I guess itís better than the alternative (poor or dead?), so Iíll take that consolation.

  76. #76
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    Saw this yesterday:
    https://www.bikemag.com/2018-bible-s...team-xtr-8300/

    Given the number of complaints about a lack of a frame-only option, I think it's funny that one of their main points is what great builds Pivot has.

  77. #77
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    Is anyone else interested in how this bike actually rides? Enough already of the no "frame only" option refrain.

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    Yes, but, but ... a manufacturer is disrespecting my consumer authority. This can NOT stand, I say.
    Just like a raindrop, I was born to fall.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stroganof View Post
    Is anyone else interested in how this bike actually rides? Enough already of the no "frame only" option refrain.
    errrr...there's this thread and one in the Pivot forum that discuss how it rides.

    Some people agree with Bike's take, others (like me disagree), and some are somewhere in between.

    I just thought it funny that they went out of their way when that seems to be one of the main points of contention with Pivot right now...almost as thought someone at Pivot mentioned it to them.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartyiak View Post
    Saw this yesterday:
    https://www.bikemag.com/2018-bible-s...team-xtr-8300/

    Given the number of complaints about a lack of a frame-only option, I think it's funny that one of their main points is what great builds Pivot has.
    TBH the Pivot's are REALLY expensive for what you get. I.E. calling an XT bike when the only thing is the rear derailleur. Hence the desire from many for frame only. People are not dumb, when you work the numbers backwards you see the build kits are a terrible value. I considered the Firebird 29 but knowing me I'd want to change another $1000+ in parts to get exactly what I want.

    There is something to be said about "listening to your customers" if you will. People will just buy a different bike. Many other companies will sell happily sell frame only. Consumer choice is good.

    Who knows, maybe Pivot is selling all Firebird 29's they can get in, and allocating those to complete bike only sales boosts sales figures is a smart move. Frame only sales though come at higher margin to companies, but maybe more headaches with incoming questions, etc. that their internal employees are not ready for or don't want to be bothered with. As we know in end consumers vote with their wallets.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSJ1973 View Post
    TBH the Pivot's are REALLY expensive for what you get. I.E. calling an XT bike when the only thing is the rear derailleur. .
    Looking at my comment, I donít think I was clear: I donít think the Pivots builds are a great value...and I think itís funny the Bike mag spent part of the video talking about how they are.

  82. #82
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    And now Yeti drops the 150- 29er. Great time to be in MTBing, choices.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkbike.com View Post

    Yeti SB150 Details

    There are five different build kits available, along with a frame only option, but even the GX Eagle base model will still leave a sizeable dent in your bank account Ė it's priced at $5,199 USD. The frame alone is priced at $3,800. For recent lottery winners, the top of the line XX1 Eagle option can be upgraded with DT Swiss XMC carbon wheels, putting the final price at $10,399.

    ē Intended use: all-mountain / enduro
    ē Wheel size: 29"
    ē Rear wheel travel: 150mm
    ē 64.5į head angle
    ē 433mm chainstays
    ē Boost 148 rear spacing
    ē Sizes: S-XL
    ē Lifetime frame warranty
    ē Price: $5,199 - $10,399. Frame only: $3,800 USD.
    ē Yeti Cycles - A Devotion to Building and Riding Bikes
    Yes! Frame Only! Boo!! Thirty Eight HUNDRED Dollars! Yikes. Entry level GX Eagle at $5199.

    Looks like Yeti is saying here is FU if you want frame only, but we will still sell you one for $3800!

  84. #84
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    3 rides on a set of Reynolds Blacklabel Wide Trail w/ Industry Nine hub, 34mm - 29" off of a FB 29 Pro XO1 if interested... Orange decals installed, but also have the yellow if needed.

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