Paging mountain drop users- Mtbr.com
Results 1 to 70 of 70
  1. #1
    Did I catch a niner+?
    Reputation: Mr Pink57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    2,955

    Paging mountain drop users

    So I am about to wrap up my Fisticuff build and in doing this I did not even think about bar positions. The bike will be setup as a go anywhere style with a little singletrack like MN River Bottoms, Lebanon Hills, or Murphy (GT might know these areas) but mainly a commuter with fenders and all.

    So my question here if you can find it is where to put my brakes? I am using a Origin8 Gary bar. I have bar end shifters going on this with standard Tektro RL-520 levers.

    EDIT: Other question to go with this is do you guys jam the bar tape under the bar end shifters? This is my first set of shifters of this style so bare with me.
    Last edited by Mr Pink57; 12-27-2010 at 08:10 PM.
    Mr. Krabs: Is it true, Squidward? Is it hilarious?

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    986
    Is your Origin 8 Gary bar the early model, or the most recent version? If your bar-end shifters fit the bars with no issues then I would assume you have the newer version as the shifters have to modified to fit the earlier version Gary. I have pics of how I have had my Origin 8 bars set-up with Tektro RL520's, but they are the early version which won't help you much.

    Either way I would set the levers up slightly loose on your mounted bar and test them to see where they feel the most comfortable for you in both the drops and on the hoods since you will be using the bike primarily for commuter service. Once you find the best location tighten the levers down and final all of your cable fixing prior to taping. As far as the bar taping goes, I used to slip the end of the bar tape into the bar-end before inserting the bar-end plug, but with the heavier tape these days and the close fit of bar-end shifters I am not sure how you would accomplish that.

    I start taping from the end of the bar after I have the shifter installed and tightened. I start the wrap using a starter piece of black electrical tape to wrap one full time then wrapping the continuing bar tape a full wrap and a half before starting my upward wrap. The tape will be a little thicker right at the end of the bar, but this has never caused me any problems and in fact has probably saved me from having a hand slip off on a couple of occasions. Thats how I do it and I am sure others do it differently. One other comment regarding taping is that I have found that using black rubber amalgam tape that you buy at the auto parts store provides a clean solid finish to a tape job especially if your bar tape is black. Its sticks to itself, is slightly tacky without being sticky, and wears really well.

  3. #3
    Did I catch a niner+?
    Reputation: Mr Pink57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    2,955
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?...&postcount=814

    I think this brake lever height might be best for what I am looking for in a all arounder style of bike.
    Mr. Krabs: Is it true, Squidward? Is it hilarious?

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    986
    Yeah..those levers are pretty high, but for touring or commuting you are probably right.

  5. #5
    Harmonius Wrench
    Reputation: Guitar Ted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,254
    Gary Bars have a lot of slope to the hooks. I know that not many folks like riding the hoods on their Gary Bar drop set ups due to that. so, here's what I would do- I'd set the lever up lower on the hook so you can grab the end of the brake lever with your index finger easily while you are in the drops. This is where your hands should be when you are riding Murph, Leb, or the River Bottoms anyway, so may as well get that spot on.

    Ride the lever set up BEFORE you tape the bars though. No need to find out you need to move the levers after your masterpiece tape job is done after the 30th try.

    And I always start the wrap right at the bar end/bar end shifter point by overlapping the wrap at that point, then taping up to the lever, around, and up to the tops. Finishing off with whatever you like to use to secure your tape with.

    It helps to cut a taper into the end where you start, but it isn't necessary for a good tape job.
    Riden' an Smilin'
    Guitar Ted

    Blog
    RidingGravel.com

  6. #6
    Did I catch a niner+?
    Reputation: Mr Pink57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    2,955
    Thanks guys for the info.

    The bars are the new style the shifter fits in fit with no modification.

    I have found using these bars in the past that I do not like being in the bend of the bar at all it's very akward for my arms to be there. But what I gather you are saying GT is to allow me hands to still rest in the flat of the drops since the bend is pretty extreme on the top of the Gary bars?
    Mr. Krabs: Is it true, Squidward? Is it hilarious?

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    986
    duplicate

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    986
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pink57
    Thanks guys for the info.

    The bars are the new style the shifter fits in fit with no modification.

    I have found using these bars in the past that I do not like being in the bend of the bar at all it's very akward for my arms to be there. But what I gather you are saying GT is to allow me hands to still rest in the flat of the drops since the bend is pretty extreme on the top of the Gary bars?
    The bend is extreme on the original Gary bar not so much the new one..

    The original is really flared with not much top to speak of


  9. #9
    Did I catch a niner+?
    Reputation: Mr Pink57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    2,955
    I will have the bike back today so I will inspect the bars further. Mine just say "Origin 8 Gary" across the front of the bar nothing else.
    Mr. Krabs: Is it true, Squidward? Is it hilarious?

  10. #10
    Harmonius Wrench
    Reputation: Guitar Ted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,254
    Well, my comments were specifically about #1: the "uncomfortable hood position" (not necessarily my view, but others), of the Gary Bars pictured, and #2: that no matter which off road drop bar you use, you will want to be in the drops off road. set your brake levers accordingly.

    Here are some examples of my drop bar set ups where you can see how I have it so the levers are easily reached from the drop section. (Fargo: Midge Bar, Singular, Badger bikes: Woodchipper)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Paging mountain drop users-origin8crank09-013.jpg  

    Paging mountain drop users-gravelworlds-033.jpg  

    Paging mountain drop users-manitou-022.jpg  

    Riden' an Smilin'
    Guitar Ted

    Blog
    RidingGravel.com

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    352
    I found it more comfortable to ride on the hoods when i got in the the techy stuff... but i dont have a flare on my bars

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    986
    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Well, my comments were specifically about #1: the "uncomfortable hood position" (not necessarily my view, but others), of the Gary Bars pictured, and #2: that no matter which off road drop bar you use, you will want to be in the drops off road. set your brake levers accordingly.

    Here are some examples of my drop bar set ups where you can see how I have it so the levers are easily reached from the drop section. (Fargo: Midge Bar, Singular, Badger bikes: Woodchipper)
    Setting the levers higher on the original Gary just doesn't work thanks to the dramtic angle of the bars. Overall my bars get set-up pretty much like yours GT, since I ride mostly off-road in the drops only.The STI shifters\levers on that Badger look slightly higher than the rest. I have never tried Sti on an off-road bike yet. My levers are all pretty low because I need to be able to reach the lever and still get decent pull\leverage while in the drops.

    Gary (V1)

    Midge




    I know the OP has mentioned he will mostly be on road commuting so maybe a more conventional drop bar like the Salsa Bell Lap or another alt bar would be best?

  13. #13
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
    Reputation: shiggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    48,236
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pink57
    Thanks guys for the info.

    The bars are the new style the shifter fits in fit with no modification.

    I have found using these bars in the past that I do not like being in the bend of the bar at all it's very akward for my arms to be there. But what I gather you are saying GT is to allow me hands to still rest in the flat of the drops since the bend is pretty extreme on the top of the Gary bars?
    Especially with new bars and levers, do not wrap them until you have tried and confirmed the lever position. It is easy to make adjustments on an unwrapped bar, nearly impossible with wrap.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  14. #14
    Did I catch a niner+?
    Reputation: Mr Pink57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    2,955
    Quote Originally Posted by N10S
    I know the OP has mentioned he will mostly be on road commuting so maybe a more conventional drop bar like the Salsa Bell Lap or another alt bar would be best?
    I have spoken with you before about this I remember now in the Singular thread. This is the only set of bars I have and due to cost savings is the only bar I am going to have for a while. So I will just have to make due for now, and maybe change in the future if I see a need to.

    Hearing more about the top slope I am leaning towards mine being old style they are almost 2 years old. I have tried putting levers higher up but they never seem to stay.
    Mr. Krabs: Is it true, Squidward? Is it hilarious?

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pedalmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    253
    I've got the same setup: Gary bars, bar-end shifters, Tektro brake levers. And I'd second what's already been said - place the brake levers low enough where you can easily and efficiently reach and pull from the drops, since this is where you'll spend most of your time. On the Gary bars, the hoods will slant inwards (pointing back towards the stem) because of the flared drops, but don't worry, they're still quite useable. As has been said before, though, you'll find yourself in the drops most of the time. I myself was dubious, and in the pics you'll see how many spacers I first used before I dialled in my bar height; but I've since put in many many miles - mostly commuter miles, but with a couple of super-fun singletrack excursions - and I've lowered the bar quite a bit (I've taken out all of the silver spacers under the stem). It does seem counterintuitive, especially when you first roll in your wrists to grip the hoods, but place 'em low. I love my setup.

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5036395454/" title="DCFC0552 by paulignacio13, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4087/5036395454_9633a25053.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DCFC0552" /></a>

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5036395404/" title="DCFC0553 by paulignacio13, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4109/5036395404_df1e397dcb.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DCFC0553" /></a>

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5036395260/" title="DCFC0546 by paulignacio13, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4146/5036395260_fd07cb2057.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DCFC0546" /></a>

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5035777539/" title="DCFC0547 by paulignacio13, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4112/5035777539_7d0efc48a8.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DCFC0547" /></a>
    All mountain bikes are all-mountain bikes.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    986
    Those are the new style Garys on pedalmunkys Surly. Very different looking, bar-end shifters fit, and they are probably much better for commuting so hopefully thats what you have Mr Pink.

  17. #17
    Did I catch a niner+?
    Reputation: Mr Pink57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    2,955
    It looks to be that I do.



    (yea I eat Wendy's so what wanna fight about it)

    Do not look at the tape job right now...
    Mr. Krabs: Is it true, Squidward? Is it hilarious?

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pedalmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    253
    If the Wendy's spicy chicken sandwich is wrong, I don't wanna be right.

    But yeah. Looks like you've got the Gary 2's. Slide the levers up so that the rubber of the hoods start around where the last electrical tape band is and use that as a starting point.

    Fun lookin' build, BTW. Those Fistis were on my shortlist when I was trying to decide which frame to build up.
    All mountain bikes are all-mountain bikes.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    986
    Nice looking Vassago Fisticuff! Now get the bike finished and ride!!

  20. #20
    Did I catch a niner+?
    Reputation: Mr Pink57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    2,955
    Thanks again gang!

    I have 5 days off starting Thursday so a lot of riding will be had. I am currently in the process of getting some Schwalbe Smart Sam 45c (have Chromoplastic fenders also), those are 38c Nashbar Comfort tires in there now.

    I am up for seeing how others have setup their Gary's if you have a pic posted, more ideas the better.

    Pedalmonkey,

    What made you decide on a CC? I am local to Surly but went with the Vassago mainly for the blowout deal during black Friday.
    Mr. Krabs: Is it true, Squidward? Is it hilarious?

  21. #21
    Did I catch a niner+?
    Reputation: Mr Pink57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    2,955
    So I have the spacers in and think I got what I want for height however I want to be more careful this time around. So I was thinking of keeping about 20mm of additional above the stem. Is this cool? I may get a knee bash on this but I want room to move it around also.
    Mr. Krabs: Is it true, Squidward? Is it hilarious?

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation: modifier's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1,816
    Does anyone still make a stem for dirt drops? Long on the rise short on the reach.
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  23. #23
    Former Bike Wrench
    Reputation: mtnbiker72's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    15,976
    Quote Originally Posted by modifier
    Does anyone still make a stem for dirt drops? Long on the rise short on the reach.
    Check this out

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation: modifier's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1,816
    No way. And it still has spacers under it. I think a little more reach would be a good idea.
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  25. #25
    Harmonius Wrench
    Reputation: Guitar Ted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,254
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pink57
    So I have the spacers in and think I got what I want for height however I want to be more careful this time around. So I was thinking of keeping about 20mm of additional above the stem. Is this cool? I may get a knee bash on this but I want room to move it around also.
    First off, Yes- Leave the spacers in until you are absolutely positive where you want the bar height at. Easy to cut down steer tubes- hard to add back in material once cut off.

    You also might want to start your handle bar position off by pointing the extensions downwards slightly towards the rear axle, (as you look from the side of the bike) In you pictures below, it appears to me that your bars are rotated too far forward. Level to the ground is too high for most folks when it comes to the drop extensions. Most set ups will show a slight downward slope towards the rear axle, which seems to fall to hand better off road. Check the pics already in this thread by myself and N10s for great examples of what I mean.
    Riden' an Smilin'
    Guitar Ted

    Blog
    RidingGravel.com

  26. #26
    Harmonius Wrench
    Reputation: Guitar Ted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,254
    Quote Originally Posted by modifier
    No way. And it still has spacers under it. I think a little more reach would be a good idea.
    I get the humor in your post, but actually, the Nakisi bike is much like the Vassago Fisticuff in that both designs use a level, low top tube to get the standover you might want off road. The shorter head tubes that result are calling out for the stem to be a "skyscraper" stem, like the Nakisi stem in my photograph there. ()

    So, it's just their way of getting the drops up where they belong for off roading, and having a few spacers there gives the ultimate end user the option of adjusting that height a wee bit. Make sense?
    Riden' an Smilin'
    Guitar Ted

    Blog
    RidingGravel.com

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pedalmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    253
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pink57
    What made you decide on a CC? I am local to Surly but went with the Vassago mainly for the blowout deal during black Friday.
    I picked Surly because they're an awesome company that makes killer steel frames at a really cheep price. Plus the CC is more of a classic 'cross frame, not as burly as the Fisti, but maybe a bit more versatile for my uses - I wanted a 'cross bike I could do light touring with, as opposed to a monstercross bike I could trail ride with.

    Horses for courses. But they're both great frames.
    All mountain bikes are all-mountain bikes.

  28. #28
    Did I catch a niner+?
    Reputation: Mr Pink57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    2,955

    ... and if we just ...

    Quote Originally Posted by pedalmunky
    I picked Surly because they're an awesome company that makes killer steel frames at a really cheep price. Plus the CC is more of a classic 'cross frame, not as burly as the Fisti, but maybe a bit more versatile for my uses - I wanted a 'cross bike I could do light touring with, as opposed to a monstercross bike I could trail ride with.

    Horses for courses. But they're both great frames.
    Mr Pink57: You see this contact lens?
    pedalmunky: Yeah?
    Mr Pink57: This contact lens represents you! And my eye represents my eye!
    [Puts on contact lens]
    Mr Pink57: I've got my *eye* on you!
    Mr. Krabs: Is it true, Squidward? Is it hilarious?

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pedalmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    253
    Errrm...thanks?
    All mountain bikes are all-mountain bikes.

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation: schnee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,797
    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    I get the humor in your post, but actually, the Nakisi bike is much like the Vassago Fisticuff in that both designs use a level, low top tube to get the standover you might want off road. The shorter head tubes that result are calling out for the stem to be a "skyscraper" stem, like the Nakisi stem in my photograph there. ()

    So, it's just their way of getting the drops up where they belong for off roading, and having a few spacers there gives the ultimate end user the option of adjusting that height a wee bit. Make sense?
    That philosophy of frame design is CRYING out for the frame itself to have a headtube extension, like a Pegoretti road bike. I wonder how much more the headset is being stressed by the run being so short and the 'lever' being so much higher.

  31. #31
    Did I catch a niner+?
    Reputation: Mr Pink57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    2,955
    I can also wonder if they strengthen the headtube due to this design?
    Mr. Krabs: Is it true, Squidward? Is it hilarious?

  32. #32
    bonked
    Reputation: IF52's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,129
    Quote Originally Posted by schnee
    That philosophy of frame design is CRYING out for the frame itself to have a headtube extension, like a Pegoretti road bike. I wonder how much more the headset is being stressed by the run being so short and the 'lever' being so much higher.
    It is a rather vintage design. Salsa, the original Salsa when still owned by Ross Shafer did stems like that for drop bars for years. Drops have been used on mtn bikes for decades.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?...15&postcount=9

    And of course there is always the infamous LD stem that folks like Scot Nicol and Charlie Cunningham favored.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?...3&postcount=40

    I doubt there is much if any more stress on the headset than there would be with a short stem and a bunch of headset spacers like you see folks running a lot these days.

    I tried to get this thread going a while back to consolodate pictures and links to good drop bar concepts. Links to Shiggy's and G-Ted's sites are in it.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=659324
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
    That is one big f'n dude!
    Yes I am!

  33. #33
    jrm
    jrm is online now
    mtbr member
    Reputation: jrm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    11,274

    Two ways

    mount your barends on some paul thumbies. Or go with a cheap alt shifter like the sunrace.

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation: modifier's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1,816
    Here are the WTB drops with an Ibis LD style stem on my Mantis.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Paging mountain drop users-rsz_mantis_5.jpg  

    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation: modifier's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1,816
    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    I get the humor in your post, but actually, the Nakisi bike is much like the Vassago Fisticuff in that both designs use a level, low top tube to get the standover you might want off road. The shorter head tubes that result are calling out for the stem to be a "skyscraper" stem, like the Nakisi stem in my photograph there. ()

    So, it's just their way of getting the drops up where they belong for off roading, and having a few spacers there gives the ultimate end user the option of adjusting that height a wee bit. Make sense?
    Even though it does look a bit odd. I didn't think the stem was too tall. But I still think it could use a little more reach. Do they produce/sell that stem? Anyone else make a dirt drop stem? You would think that with all the current producers of dirt drops that people would make stems too.

    Check out the picture of the bars and stem on my Mantis in my other post. A friend and I were fans of dirt drops back in the late 80s. I bought a WTB LD stem and he had that Ibis stem. Mine had about an inch more reach than his, which was more than I wanted so we traded and I ended up with the Ibis. Wish I had both considering that neither is around any more.

    I'll probably build up another bike with dirt drops at some point or run them on a road bike.

    The hassle comes with component choices so I eventually built my own bars that put your hands in basically the same position but w/o the drop and the ability to run standard mtb brakes and shifters. These were were the prototype bars I made from a couple of sets of triathlete bars. I later had Wes Williams make me 4 sets from ti back in the 90s which I still run.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    986
    Quote Originally Posted by modifier
    Here are the WTB drops with an Ibis LD style stem on my Mantis.
    What retains the stem on the steerer, I guess just the single bolt clamp at the bottom? I have seen pics of a modern day version of the LD stem built by Rody at Groovy Cycleworks.

    http://groovycycleworks.com/CustomAccessories.aspx

    There is a pic of the stem on the custom accessories page and it looks very true to form.

  37. #37
    craigsj
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by modifier
    The hassle comes with component choices so I eventually built my own bars that put your hands in basically the same position but w/o the drop and the ability to run standard mtb brakes and shifters.
    It warms my heart to see someone else say that. If the unique, multi-position aspect of drop bars isn't valued, a more straightforward bar without the disadvantages is clearly the way to go.

  38. #38
    mtbr member
    Reputation: boomn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    10,035
    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    It warms my heart to see someone else say that. If the unique, multi-position aspect of drop bars isn't valued, a more straightforward bar without the disadvantages is clearly the way to go.
    The point that shiggy and others make for drop bars is not just using the drops but being forward into the hooks, and you can't have hooks unless you have drop (or something else less straightforward)

  39. #39
    Harmonius Wrench
    Reputation: Guitar Ted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,254
    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    It warms my heart to see someone else say that. If the unique, multi-position aspect of drop bars isn't valued, a more straightforward bar without the disadvantages is clearly the way to go.
    Nobody is claiming that the multi-position aspect of drop bars isn't valued. What is being claimed is that off road, your primary position will be on the drops.

    I use all sorts of positions on my drop bars when it is appropriate and safe.
    Riden' an Smilin'
    Guitar Ted

    Blog
    RidingGravel.com

  40. #40
    craigsj
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    ...and you can't have hooks unless you have drop (or something else less straightforward)
    But less straightforward than a drop bar? I don't think so. Whatever the position the drop bar provides, provide that without the rise and reach and without the road bike bar diameter. Creating a bar like that isn't really so hard. What's so magic about having that curve in the hand I don't really know but it's not really the point.

  41. #41
    trail rat
    Reputation: slocaus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    7,820
    Guys, he has posted enough argumentative statements that you should know he is narrow minded and opinionated and just wants to be a troll. Ignore the trolls and they go away.

    Drop bars are great if that is what you want, but to come into a thread about them and argue against them is just trolling, plain and simple.........

    I like mine!

    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/iWcX4BZR8Rot9DyIXP003Q?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh4.ggpht.com/_rrYqLPGLdY4/TQT5SdNqQBI/AAAAAAAAIzc/UfjL_Bb1oAM/s640/IMG_0038.jpg" height="482" width="640" /></a>
    "The physician heals, Nature makes well" - real fortune cookie

    CCCMB trail work for trail access - SLO, CA

  42. #42
    mtbr member
    Reputation: boomn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    10,035
    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    But less straightforward than a drop bar? I don't think so
    Maybe I'm just not creative enough, but I have a hard time picturing any simple bar that replicates that one particular aspect of drops besides a bullhorn bar, in which case you still add to the reach as well as introduce complications in shifter setup.

  43. #43
    craigsj
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Nobody is claiming that the multi-position aspect of drop bars isn't valued.
    Nobody is claiming that in this thread but they sure have claimed it in the past. Furthermore, many dirt drop bars sacrifice the utility of positions other than the drops and the way those bars are fit, according to advocates here, completely disregards the potential value of those positions (as is justifiable considering the design). I agree that multiple positions are valuable, in fact it's a core part of what a drop bar is.

    Quote Originally Posted by slocaus
    Guys, he has posted enough argumentative statements that you should know he is narrow minded and opinionated and just wants to be a troll. Ignore the trolls and they go away.
    As usual, up starts the name calling. Look who's being argumentative...

  44. #44
    craigsj
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    Maybe I'm just not creative enough, but I have a hard time picturing any simple bar that replicates that one particular aspect of drops besides a bullhorn bar, in which case you still add to the reach as well as introduce complications in shifter setup.
    Do you believe that the only functional substitute require the exact upturn itself? What function is that providing that can't be provided in another way, say for an example, like a Jones bar does it?

    Assuming that is your requirement, you could still mimimize the rise and reach problems and eliminate the road component limitation. That was the point of modifier's post and what caused my entry into the thread.

    Look at this another way. Take a drop bar that offers the exact position you want, then imagine an altermative that doesn't require the stem attachment point to be in a bad spot. Then make it 22.2 diameter. It would seem to me that the remaining objections would have to do with the details of getting MTB brake and shift levers to work. Since I don't personally see value in having the bar offer an awkward curve under my hand, it seems straightforward. I do understand the hook usage, I just see there to be a better way to get that when you don't want the flats and the hoods. A Jones bar seems to me to be an approximation of that, but with a 45 degree flare.

  45. #45
    mtbr member
    Reputation: modifier's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1,816
    Quote Originally Posted by jrm
    mount your barends on some paul thumbies. Or go with a cheap alt shifter like the sunrace.
    Thumbies don't fit drops do they? I think WTB used to make adapters but typically don't any longer. I made my own adapters at the time.
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  46. #46
    Harmonius Wrench
    Reputation: Guitar Ted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,254
    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    Nobody is claiming that in this thread but they sure have claimed it in the past. Furthermore, many dirt drop bars sacrifice the utility of positions other than the drops and the way those bars are fit, according to advocates here, completely disregards the potential value of those positions (as is justifiable considering the design). I agree that multiple positions are valuable, in fact it's a core part of what a drop bar is.


    As usual, up starts the name calling. Look who's being argumentative...
    Well, we must remember that we are riding off road, so the parameters of the design are tweaked thusly. As for utility, that is in the eye of the beholder, in terms of hand positions. For example, I have heard plenty of folks say that you "can not ride on the hoods of a (original version), Gary Bar. Not true. What is true is that you may not prefer that type of bar for that type of position. That's an entirely different thing when you look at it that way.

    In that regard, people have discounted the hand positions, but out of a preference, not out of a design feature that prevents the user from using the bar for every available hand position a traditional road drop affords a rider.

    Off road drops, ("dirt drop" was actually a model name for a specific drop bar from the 80's), can be used just like any drop bar, if you want to. Off road it is best to stay in the drops on the rough stuff, but that isn't anything new to cyclo-crossers or roadies that find themselves descending a rough patch of course or road. It's just that they don't have to do that sort of thing often, (thinking of the roadies here), so they get back on the hoods which is their primary riding position these days. The levers and bar designs reflect this. Just the opposite of off road drop bars. It doesn't mean that they are not valuing the other available positions just because they "primarily ride on the hoods", now does it?

    Maybe road riders should just cut the drops off, since they don't value that position?

    See what I mean?
    Riden' an Smilin'
    Guitar Ted

    Blog
    RidingGravel.com

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation: modifier's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1,816
    Quote Originally Posted by N10S
    What retains the stem on the steerer, I guess just the single bolt clamp at the bottom? I have seen pics of a modern day version of the LD stem built by Rody at Groovy Cycleworks.

    http://groovycycleworks.com/CustomAccessories.aspx

    There is a pic of the stem on the custom accessories page and it looks very true to form.
    Yes.

    I just found Groovy but they are no longer making small parts and are way behind in frame production. Seems to be the story with all small producers lately.

    Maybe I need to start making frames and parts since there seems to be more demand than supply.
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  48. #48
    mtbr member
    Reputation: modifier's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1,816
    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Nobody is claiming that the multi-position aspect of drop bars isn't valued. What is being claimed is that off road, your primary position will be on the drops.

    I use all sorts of positions on my drop bars when it is appropriate and safe.
    I found that I would ride in the hook almost all the time and certainly when I wanted more control or climbing. Basically the only time I wasn't was when I was resting on a gravel road or something. So the drop position was the main thing I went for when I made my bars.

    However I also still have a position that is similar to being on the hoods just a bit narrower.

    But that was many years ago when no one was doing anything even close to this. These days there are lots of choices and options if you go custom. I like some of the stuff Black Sheep is doing.

    These road bars from Russia are pretty cool too. Somebody is thinking.
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  49. #49
    craigsj
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Well, we must remember that we are riding off road, so the parameters of the design are tweaked thusly.

    ....

    Maybe road riders should just cut the drops off, since they don't value that position?
    I agree with you. I would say, though, that others have taken a much different position on this, particularly as they describe how to fit such a bar. If a rider does value hoods and flats, even with a bar height that would be high for a road setup, then that would be a good reason to use drops rather than an alternative.

    Regarding cutting the drops off, I have actually seen pictures of that, oddly enough. For a time after I tried to make dirt drops work, I played with butterfly bars. On road they worked OK but lacked the aero benefit for headwinds. Off road they gave me too great a change in reach. I gave up on that.

  50. #50
    craigsj
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by modifier
    These road bars from Russia are pretty cool too. Somebody is thinking.
    That is an incredibly interesting bike. Someone really is thinking.

  51. #51
    mtbr member
    Reputation: schnee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,797
    Quote Originally Posted by IF52
    It is a rather vintage design. Salsa, the original Salsa when still owned by Ross Shafer did stems like that for drop bars for years. Drops have been used on mtn bikes for decades.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?...15&postcount=9

    And of course there is always the infamous LD stem that folks like Scot Nicol and Charlie Cunningham favored.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?...3&postcount=40

    I doubt there is much if any more stress on the headset than there would be with a short stem and a bunch of headset spacers like you see folks running a lot these days.

    I tried to get this thread going a while back to consolodate pictures and links to good drop bar concepts. Links to Shiggy's and G-Ted's sites are in it.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=659324
    You misinterpret me. I'm not saying anything at all about drop bars specifically, I totally get what they are and am looking for an excuse to build one up.

    What I'm talking about are these super, super-high stems with tons of spacers. The lever where the rider applies force looks SO far away from the primary place that gets stressed - the top of the headset - that I'm wondering how much more it's taxing that part, that's all.

    Any bike with tons of spacers is doing that, it's just with 29ers and the short head tubes, the ratio of the lever length to the length of the tube supported by the headset is pretty high. If it's not an issue (and someone with engineering background can verify that) then cool. It just looks really bizarre and unsound to me, that's all.

  52. #52
    Did I catch a niner+?
    Reputation: Mr Pink57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    2,955

    Good job! In the end....





    HOLY SPACERS BATMAN!

    Here is what I decided the bike comes in at just under 27lbs. Overall this hand position feels comfortable in putting my hands in a "locked" position and the levers don't hit my other fingers. I doubt I will get much in the hoods from this. I am still playing around with fit, I think a layback seatpost might be in my future (another Thomson). I am still looking at reach I am not sure about how my elbows should sit, they seem a bit stretched right now, I think a 100mm stem at 6 deg would be ideal this stem you see is a 120mm 6 deg.
    Mr. Krabs: Is it true, Squidward? Is it hilarious?

  53. #53
    bonked
    Reputation: IF52's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,129
    To schnee's point about massive stacks of spacers and the leverage imparted on the steerer tube, I think I would find a different stem with some rise. This is my current drop bar experiment. Only 30mm of spacers, the rest is rise from the stem itself, and I probably have similar or less extention compared to what is on your bike.

    Quote Originally Posted by banks
    That is one big f'n dude!
    Yes I am!

  54. #54
    bonked
    Reputation: IF52's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,129
    Quote Originally Posted by schnee
    You misinterpret me. I'm not saying anything at all about drop bars specifically, I totally get what they are and am looking for an excuse to build one up.

    What I'm talking about are these super, super-high stems with tons of spacers. The lever where the rider applies force looks SO far away from the primary place that gets stressed - the top of the headset - that I'm wondering how much more it's taxing that part, that's all.

    Any bike with tons of spacers is doing that, it's just with 29ers and the short head tubes, the ratio of the lever length to the length of the tube supported by the headset is pretty high. If it's not an issue (and someone with engineering background can verify that) then cool. It just looks really bizarre and unsound to me, that's all.
    I think I understand you. You mean the stress on the fork steerer tube?
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
    That is one big f'n dude!
    Yes I am!

  55. #55
    mtbr member
    Reputation: boomn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    10,035
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pink57
    Here is what I decided the bike comes in at just under 27lbs. Overall this hand position feels comfortable in putting my hands in a "locked" position and the levers don't hit my other fingers. I doubt I will get much in the hoods from this. I am still playing around with fit, I think a layback seatpost might be in my future (another Thomson). I am still looking at reach I am not sure about how my elbows should sit, they seem a bit stretched right now, I think a 100mm stem at 6 deg would be ideal this stem you see is a 120mm 6 deg.
    what is your current seatpost, because it looks like it already has more offset than a Thomson layback

  56. #56
    mtbr member
    Reputation: boomn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    10,035
    Quote Originally Posted by IF52
    I think I understand you. You mean the stress on the fork steerer tube?
    nope, he talking about the stress on the upper headset bearing. Regardless of whether the rise is achieved with spacers or a riser stem, the bars are still a much further distance from the headset than normal which gives the weight on your hands more leverage to push the fork steerer tube against the headset and increase the load that the bearings are taking.

    Whether this makes any noticeable difference in headset life is another matter. From my armchair engineer position I would guess that more stress is put on the headset by impacts on the front wheel than by the forward force on the bars from body weight when the front wheel hits something. Even if the forces are only about equal, this still would mean that we would see an increase in headset failures with the taller susp-corrected rigid forks on 29ers and especially with 5 and 6 inch susp forks that guys are hucking using the same headsets. Since there doesn't seem to be a noticeable difference there, I would say that the riser stem or spacer issue isn't an issue.

    The bigger issue with such short headtubes is less stiffness and precision in steering and tracking, but because the application is monstercross bikes not aggressive trail bikes that is less of an issue

  57. #57
    craigsj
    Guest
    If the hands are in the same position as they would be with a flat bar then the stresses at the headset would be the same as well. It doesn't matter that the stem rises up high and then the bar drops back down. I don't think this is an issue.

  58. #58
    mtbr member
    Reputation: boomn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    10,035
    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    If the hands are in the same position as they would be with a flat bar then the stresses at the headset would be the same as well. It doesn't matter that the stem rises up high and then the bar drops back down. I don't think this is an issue.
    ah yes, you're right. Even more reason not to be worried

  59. #59
    Did I catch a niner+?
    Reputation: Mr Pink57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    2,955
    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    what is your current seatpost, because it looks like it already has more offset than a Thomson layback
    Some cheap Easton EA30, not sure what the layback is on it though. And I think a my Thomson has more back to it. I could just pop it off my other bike I suppose
    Mr. Krabs: Is it true, Squidward? Is it hilarious?

  60. #60
    mtbr member
    Reputation: boomn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    10,035
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pink57
    Some cheap Easton EA30, not sure what the layback is on it though. And I think a my Thomson has more back to it. I could just pop it off my other bike I suppose
    yep, you're right. That Easton post has 10mm offset and the Thomson has 16mm. I ask because of a lot of posts from Ritchey, Truvativ and many others have 20-25mm offset

  61. #61
    bonked
    Reputation: IF52's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,129
    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    If the hands are in the same position as they would be with a flat bar then the stresses at the headset would be the same as well. It doesn't matter that the stem rises up high and then the bar drops back down. I don't think this is an issue.
    Yeah, I agree with that. It is actually what I was suggesting in a rather round about way in my original post.
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
    That is one big f'n dude!
    Yes I am!

  62. #62
    bonked
    Reputation: IF52's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,129
    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    nope, he talking about the stress on the upper headset bearing. Regardless of whether the rise is achieved with spacers or a riser stem, the bars are still a much further distance from the headset than normal which gives the weight on your hands more leverage to push the fork steerer tube against the headset and increase the load that the bearings are taking.

    Whether this makes any noticeable difference in headset life is another matter. From my armchair engineer position I would guess that more stress is put on the headset by impacts on the front wheel than by the forward force on the bars from body weight when the front wheel hits something. Even if the forces are only about equal, this still would mean that we would see an increase in headset failures with the taller susp-corrected rigid forks on 29ers and especially with 5 and 6 inch susp forks that guys are hucking using the same headsets. Since there doesn't seem to be a noticeable difference there, I would say that the riser stem or spacer issue isn't an issue.

    The bigger issue with such short headtubes is less stiffness and precision in steering and tracking, but because the application is monstercross bikes not aggressive trail bikes that is less of an issue

    Actually, some fork companies, in particular regarding carbon steerers have specified a maximum number of spacers allowed under stem. SRAM, at least in the past used to specify a max of 30mm of spacers under the stem. This was due to the shear load that could be put on the essentially exposed steerer above the headset, not undue load placed on the headset itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
    That is one big f'n dude!
    Yes I am!

  63. #63
    Did I catch a niner+?
    Reputation: Mr Pink57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    2,955

    Wrapped and ready to ride! The Nashbar tape is really quite nice, I put some additional strip of wrap on the drops for extra padding from some left over from a previous tape.

    Tires are Nashbar Comforts 38c ordered some Smart Sam 45c though.
    Mr. Krabs: Is it true, Squidward? Is it hilarious?

  64. #64
    Devo
    Reputation: SelfPropelledDevo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,617
    I'm trying to picture the fit
    is your primary hand position in the drops?

    typically you want your forearms to be parallel to the ground
    with your knee breaking inside the elbows
    www.AsanaCycles.com
    "Bicycle Lifestyle, realized." D.G.

  65. #65
    Did I catch a niner+?
    Reputation: Mr Pink57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    2,955
    I do not see how that is even possible in a mountain drop bar. Your primary position is on the drops, mine are close to the hook with the levers. But in order to be parallel I would have to hunch over quite a bit and I do not see that as even being comfortable all the time.
    Mr. Krabs: Is it true, Squidward? Is it hilarious?

  66. #66
    Devo
    Reputation: SelfPropelledDevo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,617
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pink57
    I do not see how that is even possible in a mountain drop bar. Your primary position is on the drops, mine are close to the hook with the levers. But in order to be parallel I would have to hunch over quite a bit and I do not see that as even being comfortable all the time.
    I hear ya. Being able to get into that "roadie" form is yet another technique.

    so I'm wondering, are you using the flats of those bars?
    www.AsanaCycles.com
    "Bicycle Lifestyle, realized." D.G.

  67. #67
    Devo
    Reputation: SelfPropelledDevo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,617
    here is something interesting.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Paging mountain drop users-4433368961_cdb4ebf4fe_o_2.jpg  

    Paging mountain drop users-fondriest.jpg  

    Paging mountain drop users-img_1172.jpg  

    Paging mountain drop users-img_0515.jpg  

    Paging mountain drop users-img_0836.jpg  

    Paging mountain drop users-img_1992_2.jpg  

    www.AsanaCycles.com
    "Bicycle Lifestyle, realized." D.G.

  68. #68
    Did I catch a niner+?
    Reputation: Mr Pink57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    2,955
    Quote Originally Posted by SelfPropelledDevo
    I hear ya. Being able to get into that "roadie" form is yet another technique.

    so I'm wondering, are you using the flats of those bars?
    No. Just the drops, if I had less slope I suppose I maybe would try and use the hoods but it felt akward and as GT and others stated it's not ideal for off road situations. I am sure in high mileage situations I will probably use all parts of the bars that is why I taped them all the way up just in case.


    This is my mountain bike setup, a flipped mary bar.
    Mr. Krabs: Is it true, Squidward? Is it hilarious?

  69. #69
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    986
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pink57
    No. Just the drops, if I had less slope I suppose I maybe would try and use the hoods but it felt akward and as GT and others stated it's not ideal for off road situations. I am sure in high mileage situations I will probably use all parts of the bars that is why I taped them all the way up just in case.


    This is my mountain bike setup, a flipped mary bar.
    Nice looking orange SS there Mr Pink, and Self Propelled Devo's Hunter is looking great too! Like you guys I am currently running an upside down swept riser bar. I parts binned my Gary bar recently and am using a Flipped Mary instead. The original Gary is almost a moustache bar so the change-over is almost not noticeable from a hand and arm position standpoint. Fewer spacers and I can run my XTR shifter for 1x9 though and thats a bonus for me.


  70. #70
    mtbr member
    Reputation: schnee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,797
    Quote Originally Posted by IF52
    Yeah, I agree with that. It is actually what I was suggesting in a rather round about way in my original post.
    Cool. Thanks for the discussion. Good to know I can let that one go.

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2019 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.