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  1. #1
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    Oh. Oh dear.

    A few months ago I asked Devin Lenz if he would build a custom frame for me. I've been riding my 6" LunchBox for just under a year and love it like none other. It's the only 29" bike that I can ride flat out, as aggressively as I want to on my local tech/chunk loops, and not have it hold me back in any way. I've also taken it to Moab, St. George, Boulder City, Grafton, Gooseberry and lift-served up at Keystone. It is an amazing, capable, competent machine, and in this bike/rider equation it has always been the rider that is the weak link--the bike always seems to be taunting me, begging for more.

    As much as I love it, I couldn't help but wonder what a few small tweaks (small to me, not so small if you're the one figuring the fabrication details out...!) would do to the overall package. So I discussed these tweaks with Devin and he was just as curious. So he went to work.

    Here's the end result:
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Edquyzi0Zk7722xqXQnX6g?authkey=Gv1sRgCJGuwKDHxt2ha g&feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh3.ggpht.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/SnmhpqXLPEI/AAAAAAAAKXQ/tV9wUGgYDGY/s800/IMG_1327.JPG" /></a>

    Several differences will jump out if you're familiar with this frame, among them are the tapered steerer, ~3/4" lower bb, same HTA as before but this one's designed around a 165mm fork, and ISCG '05 tabs. Basically the chassis has been purpose built for 'more'.

    One of the most significant details is the HT designed around a tapered steerer tube. Stiffer on the trail? Absolutely. I notice it most on slow speed descending chunk, but others have noticed the stiffness increase just about everywhere.

    Since the frame geo was designed around a big wheel and big tire crammed into a ~165mm travel fork, keeping the bars low enough was starting to be a potential concern. To mitigate that we used the new King InSet, which sheds ~10mm from the stack height of a traditional HS, keeping your bars potentially that much lower.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/27HJMyEMJZQncIViUXjnJQ?authkey=Gv1sRgCKLw6ZSi2YrD1 gE&feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh4.ggpht.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/SnZtgwTKTBI/AAAAAAAAKT4/XYciVG2MoBg/s800/IMG_1256.JPG" /></a>

    Devin actually made two of these frames, both hand painted by him because sometimes that's the way he rolls.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/WStV07KBzTJroFeikByPAg?authkey=Gv1sRgCKLw6ZSi2YrD1 gE&feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh5.ggpht.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/SnZtjwK7YII/AAAAAAAAKUE/VWUuIsAYt_I/s800/IMG_1263.JPG" /></a>

    Attention to detail? You might say so--Devin spent over 9 hours painting the camo frame.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/NNp_NBFPzSYmlNdT8BXVfA?authkey=Gv1sRgCKLw6ZSi2YrD1 gE&feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh5.ggpht.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/SnZtmYYN8BI/AAAAAAAAKUM/B1r_rhJaMOQ/s800/IMG_1288.JPG" /></a>

    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/x2i4jPfon-DHsmHY8BjBQw?authkey=Gv1sRgCKLw6ZSi2YrD1gE&feat=em bedwebsite"><img src="https://lh3.ggpht.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/SnZtoRErfbI/AAAAAAAAKUU/-2SrG2ba_zQ/s800/IMG_1293.JPG" /></a>

    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/CysFYCnIVMo4lpfUrAbtJA?authkey=Gv1sRgCKLw6ZSi2YrD1 gE&feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh4.ggpht.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/SnZtwI-dhQI/AAAAAAAAKUk/eqbHbcG24yY/s800/IMG_1304.JPG" /></a>

    Decals applied and ready for clearcoat.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/GTH8tXwa5TN4U7na1GHN1g?authkey=Gv1sRgCKLw6ZSi2YrD1 gE&feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh3.ggpht.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/SnZtqOgYBeI/AAAAAAAAKUc/lhDPs-GGM9Q/s800/IMG_1300.JPG" /></a>

    Removable, keyed ISCG 05 tabs allow easy install of a chain guide system or a Hammerschmidt. Or a clean looking frame when the plate is removed.
    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/w6uSTYhs21NIaCbtvwQyng?authkey=Gv1sRgCKLw6ZSi2YrD1 gE&feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh4.ggpht.com/_Z3iU73Uw_T8/SnZteCLFv-I/AAAAAAAAKTw/2c5yOL1K6-4/s800/IMG_1244.JPG" /></a>

    So far I've only got 4 rides in, for about 16 hours of saddle time. Not nearly enough to have adapted completely to the newness of it, but enough that I can feel the potential and so far I'm really liking the changes. Stiffer front end and lower CoG are the noticeable differences, and nothing was lost (or even changed) with the tucked rear end allowing effortless panic manuals and easy bursts up onto 30" ledges.

    Worth mentioning is that the stock LunchBox remains unchanged going forward, but Devin has said that he can/will implement one or all of these options into future frames. Just know that at that point you're getting a custom frame, which will cost more and take longer.

    At the moment, that's all I have for pics. Flat pinned with wheel orders these days and I just haven't been able to find the time to snap any more.

    Feel free to hit me with questions and I'll check in and answer as time permits.

    Cheers,

    MC

  2. #2
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    I'm starting to really like that tapered head tube/steerer tube concept. Those bikes look amazing!

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    Magnificent!!!

    Congratulations!!!!!

    Both frames are amazing looking... the use of the HS crankset is pretty cool... what a fantastic bike! I can only imagine what it's like to take your own frame design ideas and have someone turn them into reality and then take those onto the trail! I look forward to hearing more about the ride characteristics!

    S
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  4. #4
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    It's fun to watch the progression of your bikes. Any reason you didn't go for more travel?

  5. #5
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    Wow! What more to say? What she weigh? That looks like a dream ride for here in western Pa.
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  6. #6
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    Devin's the man!
    Riding Fat and still just as fast as I never was.

  7. #7
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    Wow I have to sell my Lunchbox already!!!!!!!!!!!!! Love the Hammers on it. Wish mine had that.

    Nice bike Mike

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    My, what big bad tires you have.
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  9. #9
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    Simply glorious.
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  10. #10
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    Both frames are beautiful. What's up with the HS? Didn't you say "It's like pedalling in water" of something like that? Love the brown and white colors.
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  11. #11
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    Love the Camo frame, I also am really starting to like the tapered HT bikes.
    "I ride to clear my head, my head is clearer when I'm riding SS. Therefore, I choose to ride SS."~ Fullrange Drew

  12. #12
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    Nice! What's the name of those tires? Lunch Meats?
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  13. #13
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    Tuff.

    I'm wondering what solutions there are to bar height once the forks move beyond 170mm. Are we going to end up with some kind of inverted/integrated stem? Or maybe just inverted bars.
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  14. #14
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    I saw the Camo one on display at Crankworx last weekend, it looks even better in person.

    I had to do a double take "What, wait a Camo Lenz? That's unique." I'm sad I didn't stop to take a closer look at the details of the bike.
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  15. #15
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    damn.
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  16. #16
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    This is a very dangerious post.. I am really looking into a Lenz for my next purchase

  17. #17
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    Mike how is the pinch resistence with those tires?
    Can they really be used for rocky downhill runs?

  18. #18
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    Those bikes are okay I guess.

    The wheels will fold for sure
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  19. #19
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    Devin Lenz.......Engineer........Artist........... serious risk to my wallet

    Lunch just got a whole lot tastier
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  20. #20
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    Maaaaan--lots of great questions and awesome to see this level of interest in a non-hardtail, non-SS 29"er. Apparently we're moving past that stage...!

    Any reason you didn't go for more travel?
    Lots of reasons, actually. Primarily because I'm an XC rider, meaning I earn my descents but also meaning that I don't ride fire roads when climbing--I like to climb techy singletrack. More travel doesn't always mean more weight or a more disconnected feel from the trail, but it usually works out that way. My point? I want a bike that is still connected and fun to climb on tech trail.

    Another big reason (hard to prioritize them all, ya know?) is that the 6" of rear travel on this chassis is of such high quality that I think it'll match up best with a ~170mm (maybe even 180) travel fork. The WB 150 is smoove and stiff, but it just isn't quite enough to keep up with the bottomless travel of the rear of this bike when you're really pushing it. So the 150mm out back is currently plenty for XC/AM use.

    Quote Originally Posted by MABman
    My, what big bad tires you have.
    Couldn't have happened without the spark and the resulting connections made, all courtesy of YOU. Remember that ride way back when, with me crashing my brains out and you saying "Ya know, Mike, I think you need more tire..."?

    What's up with the HS? Didn't you say "It's like pedalling in water" of something like that?
    That quote was in reference to Rohloff's and Schlumpf's, as I had not yet ridden a HS. Now that I've gotten some time on one, the HS feels frictionless in the direct-drive (small) ring, with some minor noise and resistance noticeable in the overdrive. I mostly installed it so that I could know how to install/tune it, how it feels on the bike in differing trail situations, and so that I could speak knowledgeably about it to customers that were considering it. Done and done and done. That said, it's already on it's way to a new home, and I'm back on 2-rings with a front der.

    Nice! What's the name of those tires? Lunch Meats?
    Bada bing! These are actually ~2 year old Kodiak samples. Somewhat similar to the tires that the Niner guys are having made by WTB.

    I'm wondering what solutions there are to bar height once the forks move beyond 170mm.
    Doesn't there need to be a problem before a solution is required? With the 165 fork installed on this 6" LunchBox, I'm running a 5mm spacer, a 12* rise stem, and a 1/4" rise bar, and the bars are still ~5mm below the top of my saddle. That's an XC bar height, relative to saddle height. With a wide flat bar, no spacer, and a no-rise stem, the bars would be waaaay too low for me--something like 3/4" below saddle height. Even with a ~180mm fork on this bike (rubs hands together, knowingly...) the bars should be roughly level with the saddle.

    damn.
    'Zackly!

    Quote Originally Posted by sikocycles
    Mike how is the pinch resistence with those tires?
    Can they really be used for rocky downhill runs?
    The short answer? Yep.

    The long answer.

    Riding last Saturday at Winter Park Devin and I did about 30k of vert descending. (Helmet cam footage is being slooooooowly edited from that day) I put two dents and two flat spots into my rear Gordo, and one crease in my front Gordo. No flats.

    Worth mentioning is that the casing characteristics of these old samples I'm riding are somewhat different to the tire that Niner is bringing to market. (I assume that) In the interest of *some* weight savings Niner opted for a slightly lighter casing, which won' t be quite as pinch-proof in full-on DH situations. I've been working with Mark Slate at WTB on an updated 29" DH tire that'll likely make that a non-issue...

    Later,

    MC

  21. #21
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    i am shocked at the stack height of the bike. shocked I tell you.
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  22. #22
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    Wow…I don’t normally like Camo but…wow!

  23. #23
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    Will there be a 165mm rear wheel travel Lunchbox option to match the front and even longer forks?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield
    Will there be a 165mm rear wheel travel Lunchbox option to match the front and even longer forks?

    holy self defeating question batman!

  25. #25
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    [QUOTE=mikesee]Maaaaan--lots of great questions and awesome to see this level of interest in a non-hardtail, non-SS 29"er. Apparently we're moving past that stage...!



    Lots of reasons, actually. Primarily because I'm an XC rider, meaning I earn my descents but also meaning that I don't ride fire roads when climbing--I like to climb techy singletrack. More travel doesn't always mean more weight or a more disconnected feel from the trail, but it usually works out that way. My point? I want a bike that is still connected and fun to climb on tech trail.

    Another big reason (hard to prioritize them all, ya know?) is that the 6" of rear travel on this chassis is of such high quality that I think it'll match up best with a ~170mm (maybe even 180) travel fork. The WB 150 is smoove and stiff, but it just isn't quite enough to keep up with the bottomless travel of the rear of this bike when you're really pushing it. So the 150mm out back is currently plenty for XC/AM use.



    Couldn't have happened without the spark and the resulting connections made, all courtesy of YOU. Remember that ride way back when, with me crashing my brains out and you saying "Ya know, Mike, I think you need more tire..."?



    That quote was in reference to Rohloff's and Schlumpf's, as I had not yet ridden a HS. Now that I've gotten some time on one, the HS feels frictionless in the direct-drive (small) ring, with some minor noise and resistance noticeable in the overdrive. I mostly installed it so that I could know how to install/tune it, how it feels on the bike in differing trail situations, and so that I could speak knowledgeably about it to customers that were considering it. Done and done and done. That said, it's already on it's way to a new home, and I'm back on 2-rings with a front der.



    Bada bing! These are actually ~2 year old Kodiak samples. Somewhat similar to the tires that the Niner guys are having made by WTB.



    Doesn't there need to be a problem before a solution is required? With the 165 fork installed on this 6" LunchBox, I'm running a 5mm spacer, a 12* rise stem, and a 1/4" rise bar, and the bars are still ~5mm below the top of my saddle. That's an XC bar height, relative to saddle height. With a wide flat bar, no spacer, and a no-rise stem, the bars would be waaaay too low for me--something like 3/4" below saddle height. Even with a ~180mm fork on this bike ([I]rubs hands together, knowingly...[/I]) the bars should be roughly level with the saddle.

    [email protected]$king Sweet. WB Groove I hope.

    'Zackly!



    The short answer? Yep.

    The long answer.

    Riding last Saturday at Winter Park Devin and I did about 30k of vert descending. (Helmet cam footage is being slooooooowly edited from that day) I put two dents and two flat spots into my rear Gordo, and one crease in my front Gordo. No flats.

    Worth mentioning is that the casing characteristics of these old samples I'm riding are somewhat different to the tire that Niner is bringing to market. (I assume that) In the interest of *some* weight savings Niner opted for a slightly lighter casing, which won' t be quite as pinch-proof in full-on DH situations. I've been working with Mark Slate at WTB on an updated 29" DH tire that'll likely make that a non-issue...

    [email protected]$king sweet again. Need a DH 29er bad.
    Later,

    Thats great news. Thx

  26. #26
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    Mike, some more smart stuff here from you and Devin. Thanks for continuing to "thinker" through more evolutionary tweaks. I admire all the hard work.

    Question: The lower BB height would obviously help negate the issues with mounting/dismounting the bike out in the field, but can you speak yet as to how, (if at all) it has improved the handling? I thought the Large Lunchbox I rode last year was just a wee bit tippy in tight switchbacks. No doubt, the tapered steer tube helps there, but I wonder if the slightly lower BB also adds a bit of slow speed stability in a situation like that.

    On travel: We talked a bit last year about the compression damping of the rear shock and of course, I'm sure there were some tweaks to the front fork. Can you enlighten us on anything being tried/done on the suspension front? (ie: That front fork on the camo bike looks different)

    As far as the rear travel goes, what I could make of it on my short ride was that it felt rather bottomless. I really thought it would take quite a rider to plumb all the depths of what the Lunchbox has on tap before another half an inch would need to be added. Just my two cents on that.

    And finally, I am a total sucker for camo paint jobs. Devin did an awesome job on that one. Nice!

    Thanks for sharing Mike!
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by EGF168
    Wow…I don’t normally like Camo but…wow!

    OK First let me say this ( before I piss in this big CAMO bowl of Cheerios) The first bike with the WB proto is super hot ( the brown and white one). I would of liked to seen it BLACK instead of brown but hey "That's me" I like Black & white bikes..For example there is a thread just a few down from this one with a SUPER HOT black & white bike in it..(yes I'm talking about my new Paradox what? ) I know I know the nerve of this guy.....But as for the "Camo" Lenz which btw I also think is a VERY SWEET looking bike. BUT CAMO? come on guys, I don't know what Army Devin was in but that's not Camo, Cool? yes, Camo? I don't think so........It looks like flowers, or like someone else said last night a "Jig saw puzzle" I can so respect that it took Devin eight hours or whatever it was to do this, but tell him the next time he wants to do a "Camo" bike, go see how Nicolai does it as nobody does camo like Nicolai NOBOBY.....Now before some of you Lenz guys go and sharpen you teeth and come attack me ( or try to anyway, I'm sure Padre is foaming at the mouth right about now) keep in mind I have ALWAYS been a fan of Lenz bikes and these two just might be the best looking two that I've seen thus far BUT, CAMO? Again it's just an opinon ONLY...CF.

  28. #28
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    http://images.google.com/images?q=%2...N&hl=ga&tab=wi

    i don't think the exact pattern has to be in use by any actual army for something to be considered 'camouflage'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camouflage

    technically, any color could be considered camouflage if it's intended to utilize it's color for concealment in an environment of a similar color. you could call solid hot pink camo if it's intended to blend in with a hot pink room.

  29. #29
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    Love this one!
    Attached Images Attached Images
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRAZY FRED
    OK First let me say this ( before I piss in this big CAMO bowl of Cheerios) The first bike with the WB proto is super hot ( the brown and white one). I would of liked to seen it BLACK instead of brown but hey "That's me" I like Black & white bikes..For example there is a thread just a few down from this one with a SUPER HOT black & white bike in it..(yes I'm talking about my new Paradox what? ) I know I know the nerve of this guy.....But as for the "Camo" Lenz which btw I also think is a VERY SWEET looking bike. BUT CAMO? come on guys, I don't know what Army Devin was in but that's not Camo, Cool? yes, Camo? I don't think so........It looks like flowers, or like someone else said last night a "Jig saw puzzle" I can so respect that it took Devin eight hours or whatever it was to do this, but tell him the next time he wants to do a "Camo" bike, go see how Nicolai does it as nobody does camo like Nicolai NOBOBY.....Now before some of you Lenz guys go and sharpen you teeth and come attack me ( or try to anyway, I'm sure Padre is foaming at the mouth right about now) keep in mind I have ALWAYS been a fan of Lenz bikes and these two just might be the best looking two that I've seen thus far BUT, CAMO? Again it's just an opinon ONLY...CF.
    for comparison, while still not some folks' cup of tea, an arctic camo paint job from my Terremoto, though done by Spectrum


  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRAZY FRED
    OK But as for the "Camo" Lenz which btw I also think is a VERY SWEET looking bike. BUT CAMO? come on guys, I don't know what Army Devin was in but that's not Camo, Cool? yes, Camo? I don't think so........It looks like flowers, or like someone else said last night a "Jig saw puzzle" ........... BUT, CAMO? Again it's just an opinon ONLY...CF.
    Yeah, its your opinion. I think it looks great, and I think it looks like a form of "camo".

    This sort of color scheme goes waaay back in mtb history with bikes that have had "sky camo", and wild "hippie camo" and all sorts of variations on the theme.

    Then you've got the "real tree" camo effects, and "digi-camo" which is pretty hot right now.

    Maybe your definition of "camo" is narrow, but I think in reality "camo" covers quite a wide spectrum.

    At anyrate, you can always pony up the $$$ and have Devin do a black and white "SuperLunchBox" for yerself. Why complain about this?
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  32. #32
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    Fo, I thought your Ventana finish was titled "Wrath of the Seagulls"??? Now I'm confused!


  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Yeah, its your opinion. I think it looks great, and I think it looks like a form of "camo".

    This sort of color scheme goes waaay back in mtb history with bikes that have had "sky camo", and wild "hippie camo" and all sorts of variations on the theme.

    Then you've got the "real tree" camo effects, and "digi-camo" which is pretty hot right now.

    Maybe your definition of "camo" is narrow, but I think in reality "camo" covers quite a wide spectrum.

    At anyrate, you can always pony up the $$$ and have Devin do a black and white "SuperLunchBox" for yerself. Why complain about this?
    lava lamp headtubes rock

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    hey mike,

    are those 6" of supersweet rear suspension coming from a 2" travel shock (3:1 ratio)? i ask because i'm a big (heavy) dude, and my experience with higher leverage ratio bikes has been that i've had to add mucho air to the shock to get the sag right, after which it feels like i blow thru the travel in trail chatter. 29ers with 2:1 lev ratios have been a blessing.

    slightly off-topic, will the longer travel bikes you've been hinting at use longer stroke shocks?

    thanks!

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by cndkid
    hey mike,

    are those 6" of supersweet rear suspension coming from a 2" travel shock (3:1 ratio)? i ask because i'm a big (heavy) dude, and my experience with higher leverage ratio bikes has been that i've had to add mucho air to the shock to get the sag right, after which it feels like i blow thru the travel in trail chatter. 29ers with 2:1 lev ratios have been a blessing.

    slightly off-topic, will the longer travel bikes you've been hinting at use longer stroke shocks?

    thanks!
    you really shouldnt be on mtbr during work hours.

  36. #36
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    Nice concept for sure. I'm just wandering what are the benefits of a tapered HT when the steerer tube of that WB fork is not tapered (correct me if I'm wrong). So I am asking does the bigger diameter of the lower end of the HT as well as the lower headset crown alone increase the stiffness of the front end as you described?

  37. #37
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    I believe the steerer is tapered as well.
    "... displays the social skills of a barrel cactus." - TNC

  38. #38
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    sweet! didnt realize the King "Inset" was available...or maybe its not for me

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    sweet! didnt realize the King "Inset" was available...or maybe its not for me
    What bike would you put it on? Think about it!


  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter
    What bike would you put it on? Think about it!
    good point...unless i went with tapered steerer tube, no option it appears, i.e.,

    • 1 1-8" (Upper and Lower cups are 1 1-8" InSet)
    • Tapered ( 1 1-8" Upper cup with 1.5" Lower cup)
    • Mixed Tapered ( 11-8" Upper InSet cup with Lower external type cup)
    with tapered headtube and non tapered fork, no can dew???

  41. #41
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    hah!

    I like this one....
    Attached Images Attached Images

  42. #42
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    right back at ya!!

    my work day ended 10 min ago; at least until i get home and set up the laptop...

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    good point...unless i went with tapered steerer tube, no option it appears, i.e.,
    • 1 1-8" (Upper and Lower cups are 1 1-8" InSet)
    • Tapered ( 1 1-8" Upper cup with 1.5" Lower cup)
    • Mixed Tapered ( 11-8" Upper InSet cup with Lower external type cup)
    with tapered headtube and non tapered fork, no can dew???
    So go Gheypered already...you big sissy!


  44. #44
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    nice bike(s)! maybe I will go ride my Lunchbox once or twice this winter. that is about all i can handle before i feel like throwing the bike in a dumpster over my forkstration. (fork-frustration).

  45. #45
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    Why not full 1,5 HT? Easier to design and stiffer plus MC already uses short stems etc.

  46. #46
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    I like the camo, and the maroon/white/black for that matter! While I don't need an AM bike - I like the innovation and progress being made so well done Mike!

    With regards to camo - with water transfer imaging now -the sky's the limit!

    http://www.liquidprintone.com/subcategory.php?id=16
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  47. #47
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    The new Box' look absolutely awesome. Makes me want to bring my Lenz count up to three.

    B
    Last edited by donkey; 08-06-2009 at 08:05 AM.
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRAZY FRED
    Grandpa Simpson rant snipped
    Another one for the ignore list, I guess.
    All problems in mountain biking can be solved by going faster, except the ones that are caused by going too fast.

  49. #49
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    I've never been a Lenz fan (cosmetically, never had the chance to ride one) 'cause I'm just not that into big tubing but both of those look fantastic.

  50. #50
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    On the subject of what is and isn't camo...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH2XsAkjYw0&NR=1

  51. #51
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    Lookin good.

    What size frames are those pictured?

    And any chance of ever riding a Lenz before laying down the cash? Preferably the LunchBox.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7daysaweek
    I've never been a Lenz fan (cosmetically, never had the chance to ride one) 'cause I'm just not that into big tubing but both of those look fantastic.
    Cosmetically or aesthetically? Big t00bs pwn. My next Lenz will be done up like a fighter aircraft with rivets, shark teeth and a Betty Boop sterling silver headbadge from JG. It will also have a modular mount for my 10-22.
    Professional Amateur

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRAZY FRED
    Hey GT,-*rant removed*- CF...

    Fred - chill out dude. Go out and ride that Banshee a bit more and report back to us with a more detailed ride report instead of this crap up above. A one ride min-review isn't cutting it for most of us.

    Cheers,

    Mark

  54. #54
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    MC,

    That new mosheen is jaw-droppingly gorgeous. Outstanding work.

    More pics when you can please. I ride FS vicariously through you.
    Ride.

  55. #55
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    This thread is worthless without a plethorae of vidoes beating the crap of its wheels and Kodiaks- who's with me? I want to see kiddy wheel lovers to watch with their jaw on the ground.

  56. #56
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    (neatly side-stepping the "my camo brings all the boys to the yard" argument...)

    so mike, the hammershmidt, you mentioned a bit of noise.
    how's that thing working out?
    I've been happily ss'ing around for a while, but now find myself swapping trailer mounts and wondering whether there's a better alternative to dingle-speeding the thing.

    oh, why am I mentioning this here?
    because fie on ye young Mike C, for making me wonder why I have a heckler right now when I could be enjoying big wheelie goodness with short stays and mucho suspension!!

    I'd happily been bouncing about on the karate monkey (formerly mtb rigid, now monstercross front squish) and thinking the suspension arena will just remain my small-wheeled-big spring'd guilty secret.
    Now... I dunno.
    (odd sidebar, heckler seemed to fit 700x40mm tires... monstercrossed heckler? hrmmm)
    If steel is real then aluminium is supercallafragiliniun!

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    It's almost unbelievable that a thread can deteriorate as fast as this one did.
    Use the Ignore list. I miss the pre-politically correct days when we called it a twit filter.

    Nice bikes, I like. Something different that the sheeples cannot wrap their heads around, you radical nonconformist, you.
    "The physician heals, Nature makes well" - real fortune cookie

    CCCMB trail work for trail access - SLO, CA

  58. #58
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    Very Nice! Can't wait to see it in action.

    Did Devin move the suspension pivot points, (on the main triangle), up to get the BB lower?

  59. #59
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    Awesome. Although I am not HammerSchmidt compatible, that is a great bike.

    How do you cut the white spokes ? My Phil machine protests cutting anything powdercoated.

  60. #60
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    Awesome.

  61. #61
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    Hows the RS rear shock workin? Is that an available model or is it under development?

  62. #62
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    Both bikes are sick. However, I saw the "Camo" bike up at Crankworks in Winter Park and the pictures do not even come close to doing it justice!! That is the best looking bike I have seen.
    I have no feeling toward "Camo" one way or another, but no doubt when you see it, it is "Camo". It really is a sweet bike.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupboy
    Cosmetically or aesthetically? Big t00bs pwn. My next Lenz will be done up like a fighter aircraft with rivets, shark teeth and a Betty Boop sterling silver headbadge from JG. It will also have a modular mount for my 10-22.

    Haha. **aesthetically**. I knew cosmetically didn't sound right but I couldn't think of the right word. I'm a big steel frame, thinner tube fan. Just my preference I suppose. Although those big tubes give a lot more room for neat paint work (cosmetics ).

  64. #64
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    Hey Mike, how tall are you? Do you think this type of bike would be reasonable for shorter riders?

  65. #65
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    In case you anyone missed it.

    I like the two tone paint job.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel
    In case you anyone missed it.

    I like the two tone paint job.
    I noticed. It's very sweet!

  67. #67
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    I got out for an evening toodle with a very talented local guy a few days ago. He's a great rider and writer, and the past few years his photog skills have gone through the roof, largely due to a willingness to experiment and deduce what works, what doesn't, and why.

    Anyhoo, here are a few of the great shots he took while the light was right that night. Nice stuff, Greg.

    The first two are the same move, from different angles. Way STIL.




    JRA.


    Committing.


    Micro-gap.


    Chunky roller.


    A fun pop that got exciting that night due to gusty winds. First I got stopped in place (in the air) then it threw me down. Unplanned excitement = .


    Having a blast learning the new rig.

    Cheers,

    MC

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Thanks for continuing to "thinker" through more evolutionary tweaks. I admire all the hard work.
    It's easy to make suggestions (or criticisms), and much, much harder to thinker it all through and make things 'work'. The hard work in this equation is all Devin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Question: The lower BB height would obviously help negate the issues with mounting/dismounting the bike out in the field, but can you speak yet as to how, (if at all) it has improved the handling? I thought the Large Lunchbox I rode last year was just a wee bit tippy in tight switchbacks. No doubt, the tapered steer tube helps there, but I wonder if the slightly lower BB also adds a bit of slow speed stability in a situation like that.
    As with any other single variable, there are compromises.

    I love the lower BB, right up until I smack a pedal on a rock/root/ledge I never have before. I suppose I’ll adapt to that, much like I’ve already adapted to the increased cornerability the low BB gives. I’m taking corners into drops so much faster that I’ve had to add a few psi to each end to help it ramp up a bit more and resist bottoming from landing those drops faster/harder. Nice problem to have!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    On travel: We talked a bit last year about the compression damping of the rear shock and of course, I'm sure there were some tweaks to the front fork. Can you enlighten us on anything being tried/done on the suspension front? (ie: That front fork on the camo bike looks different)
    That fork is a 35mm chassis with 165mm travel. That amount of travel and that burly of a chassis really match up well to the rest of this bike. And that's about all I can say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    As far as the rear travel goes, what I could make of it on my short ride was that it felt rather bottomless. I really thought it would take quite a rider to plumb all the depths of what the Lunchbox has on tap before another half an inch would need to be added. Just my two cents on that.
    I can really only agree here, although it's not so much the *amount* of travel as the quality of travel. Some of this must be attributed to the highly tunable damper, but the bulk of it can be blamed on the blend of spring curve, leverage ratio, and wheel path. I'm using all of the travel several times per ride, and have not yet (in over a year) wished for more or different travel out back.

    Quote Originally Posted by cndkid
    are those 6" of supersweet rear suspension coming from a 2" travel shock (3:1 ratio)? i ask because i'm a big (heavy) dude, and my experience with higher leverage ratio bikes has been that i've had to add mucho air to the shock to get the sag right, after which it feels like i blow thru the travel in trail chatter. 29ers with 2:1 lev ratios have been a blessing.
    Yes, 3:1.

    All of the higher end rear shocks available these days have some method for adjusting air volume, and this is the answer to your question. Generally speaking, a larger rider needs less air volume so that they don't need to run such high pressures, and so that they don't wallow deep into the stroke on small/medium sized chunk and chatter. Obviously there is more to it than this, but being able to adjust air volume is one of the few ways that you can build one frame to suit a wide range of riders.

    Quote Originally Posted by cndkid
    will the longer travel bikes you've been hinting at use longer stroke shocks?
    Oui.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusSommers
    How do you cut the white spokes ? My Phil machine protests cutting anything powdercoated.
    With these?!


    Kidding!

    DT is making two different spokes (2.0 Comps and AeroLites) in dozens of different lengths, in white.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tbone
    Hows the RS rear shock workin? Is that an available model or is it under development?
    After about a year on several different tunes and a few different bikes, I really like 'em. Available? I really dunno.

    MC
    Last edited by mikesee; 08-09-2009 at 09:46 PM.

  69. #69
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    Mike,
    Sweet pics as normal... Looks like you are going to need all 165mm of travel in those first two pics.

    Good diversion for the day for us East Coasters sitting in yet another day of rain.
    Barry

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRAZY FRED
    .Now before some of you Lenz guys go and sharpen you teeth and come attack me ( or try to anyway, I'm sure Padre is foaming at the mouth right about now) ....
    I'm not foaming at the mouth, I'm laughing at the mouth. I'm laughing because after what's been laid out and all the research, envelope-pushing and boundary widening....all you can comment on is the color of the frame's paint? Seriously? I'm also laughing because you thinking you're being "attacked" when someone disagrees w/ you on the internet. I'm also laughing because I'm trying the single-paragraph approach.

  71. #71
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    Um, Padre. The single-paragraph is nice and all but you forgot the words in ALL CAPS and the emoticons...

    Just an observation from the gallery.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel
    In case you anyone missed it.

    I like the two tone paint job.
    I caught it - but it's a 3 tone - notice how the seat tube includes a black section to blend in with the rear triangle.
    Happiness depends more on the inward disposition of mind than on outward circumstances. Benjamin Franklin

  73. #73
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    Sick photos and all - but please Mike, please tell me you didn't pic your riding shorts and shirt to match the the colors of the bike........please.

  74. #74
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    Amazing pics as usual Mike! Great scenery and camera perspective, looks like a bunch o fun.

    I really like the looks of your new frame and cannot wait to hear your feedback after fetting a good feel for it.

    Regards,
    Sane Fred
    The other Fred........

  75. #75
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    I'll just second the "Damn". I can definately forsee always having at least one Lenz in the stable. My hat's off you you Mike and to Devin; gotta' love non-stop evolution (unless you're trying to keep up buying it).
    "I'll disintegrate over time if I expect my body to try to keep up with my mind" -BM

    Race, Rocks or Road...Just Ride

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    I got out for an evening toodle with a very talented local guy a few days ago. He's a great rider and writer, and the past few years his photog skills have gone through the roof, largely due to a willingness to experiment and deduce what works, what doesn't, and why.

    Anyhoo, here are a few of the great shots he took while the light was right that night. Nice stuff, Greg.

    Cheers,

    MC
    actually quite cool pics! And I bet Enel is jealous of your new bike

  77. #77
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    Great pics and a very interesting new ride. I think that I'll be pretty happy with a nice stiff 5" travel 29er for my riding. That and a set of the upcoming Niner spec Kodiaks until those new WTB big meats become available.

    I'd be very interested in seeing how much front end stiffness would be gained with a new WB F135-145 fork with 35mm uppers, 120mm hub spacing, tapered steerer and 20mm Hartlett Q/R axle.
    Abandoned the 26" wheel in May '03

  78. #78
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    as usual jaw dropping pics! thanx! now i've got to ask, how does your wife let you do all that stuff without any pads/protection?

  79. #79
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    Let me see the previous 5" Lunchbox could use the 150mm WB, finally appeared the current 6" to go with and now the current usues 165mm WB eventually the rear 165mm rear travel on Lunchbox will surface. What ya think gals&guys.
    @DurtGurl isn't it what you are after for?

    By the way Mike where are the videos we lust for?

  80. #80
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    Devin's day off.

    Normally I break in a new bike with a few shortish rides on the local loops, fiddling with pressures and twiddling knobs until the bike becomes invisible. Not this time. Final fiddling was done in Devin's driveway then it was off to Winter Park.

    It's pretty rare for Devin to take a day off, even a stinkin' Saturday. I had a blast chasing him around and following his lines all day. Hey Devin--you need more days off!

    The bulk of what is shown in this vid is fast and flowy. There is a decent amount of slow and chunky (and sweet and greasy) there as well, but we were having too much fun going fast to notice.

    Without further ado...

    <object width="700" height="525"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=6044379&amp;server=vimeo.com &amp;show_title=0&amp;show_byline=0&amp;show_portr ait=0&amp;color=ff9933&amp;fullscreen=1" /><embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=6044379&amp;server=vimeo.com &amp;show_title=0&amp;show_byline=0&amp;show_portr ait=0&amp;color=ff9933&amp;fullscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="700" height="525"></embed></object>
    P.S. If you can see my front wheel, it ain't on the ground...

    Cheers,

    MC
    Last edited by mikesee; 08-11-2009 at 09:58 AM.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Final fiddling was done in Devin's driveway then it was off to Winter Park.
    Heading there tomorrow. I'll try to get in one of those runs per day... Not doing any lifts .
    We don't need more to be thankful for; we just need to be more thankful.

  82. #82
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    That's a great video!!
    2013 Niner RIP 9
    2012 Niner RIP 9
    2010 Niner JET 9

  83. #83
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    Now some chunk sections& drops won't hurt on that 165mm 1,5" 35mm stanchioned WB. Too bad that Lunchbox hasn't been scaled up for 165mm on the rear.

  84. #84
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    1st time I've ever wanted a 29er. Sweet bike!

  85. #85
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    I want to go to there!!!
    Great vid, Mike, thanks for putting a smile on my face once again-
    What is Devin ridin'?

  86. #86
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    Major props to Greg (bikeabout) on those shots. Very, very good. I've right-clicked and saved a few others of his over the past few months. His photog skills are topnotch indeed.

    That second photo really shows the steepness of that roller. Major pucker time.

    BTW is that Maroon or Brown on that gorgeous paint job. I love it. A little 'specialized' but very nice nonetheless.
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  87. #87
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    Sweet vid. Time to put the Holms, big meats and big brakes back on and hit up Winter Park.
    Professional Amateur

  88. #88
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    I hope Devin is riding a 29er also. Maybe the DH proto?

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupboy
    Sweet vid. Time to put the Holms, big meats and big brakes back on and hit up Winter Park.
    What?!?!?!? no avitar, brah?

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by sikocycles
    I hope Devin is riding a 29er also. Maybe the DH proto?
    Devin was on his stock 6" 'box.

  91. #91
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    nice color matching on that band-aid! sweet looking bikes and riding as well.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean salach
    nice color matching on that band-aid! sweet looking bikes and riding as well.
    It was an accidental 'skin camo' job.

    I hope that everyone approves of it.

    MC

  93. #93
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    It is amazing how much attention that band-aid is getting- duoh! I just added to it!!

    Thanks again mike sweet rigs-

    Have you gotten any time on the new zokey? am interested in how it compares to your WBs.

  94. #94
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    That video makes me want to go to WP, and that's def the best looking Lenz I've seen, yours not the camo!

  95. #95
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    I was not shopping for another bike. I love my Milk Money, Moth and Silver Box.......




    ...........but the Box always bothered me just a little. My only complaints were that it felt a little big (MM and Moth are Med frames, my Box is a large), and that I really wanted to try a Hammerschmidt set-up, and the frame wouldn't accept it. I wanted to try Hammershmidt because I have a sort of hate-hate relationship with my front derailleur.

    I have no idea why I like Med frames at my size 6'1"(fetish maybe??), but there it is.

    So anyway, Mike pings me a couple weeks ago about a proto Devin built for him, now for sale. Medium frame. Oh, by the way HS compatible. Oh by the way, he'll throw in the Hammerschmidt as well at a more than reasonable price. Oh, by the way, it also comes with a trendy tapered head tube to accept the next generation of forks.

    Finally, sealing the deal, the frame is painted some sort of white/black camo pattern that matches my white hubs (the Silver bike never did and I was sad about that as well)

    I thought about it for a couple minutes and folded. So much for my "no new bikes for a year" resolution.

    The frame arrived yesterday, and I got it built up last night moving parts over from the Silver bike except for crank, headset, and derailleur (went to Med cage). Kept the same 45 stem for giggles even.

    Took it out this am for some testing (on the way to work) and ended up with some great light for glamour shots.



    I can't believe the winter darkness is coming back already. Almost time to break out the lights again.



    The build went fine. The tapered headtube came with a King "inset" headset. It had a special fork race that adapted the 1 1/8 fork to the 1.5 bottom cup. This headset has 15mm less stack height than the Cane Creek I was using on the other Box. The tapered headtube is an additional 10 mm shorter than the Large Box, so my stack height is a whopping 25mm less.



    Thus: I have a lot of spacers. I could evacuate them by switching to riser bars, but I like to annoy Padre so I will leave them for a while. If I eventually go to a 165mm fork, I can probably lose another 10mm of spacers.

    Overall, I think the shorter HT and inset cups will be an advantage to the more (ahem) vertically challenged 29er brethren out there.



    I took the bike on the first half of my "commute" today which consists of roads, gravel paths, and some extremely chunky, rocky terrain (see background of photo). Think slow, ledgy stuff. I am pretty familiar with the trails as I ride them twice a week. They require slow balance moves, balancing around tight switchbacks, butt way back short steep rock descents followed by power bursts to get to back up on the rocks.

    My old large Box excelled in this terrain, and this bike is its equal. I had no difficulty getting on and feeling very comfortable immediately. The smaller frame is easier to handle in tight switchbacks, and seems a little easier to track stand and muscle up and around stuff. I was worried about the lower BB in this slow terrain where I have to pedal up ledgy stuff, but that turned out to be a non-issue. I was able to climb three of the toughest moves on this trail first try.



    Mini Hammerschmidt review: Seems to work as advertised. Zero drag in the small gear. Some drag and noise in "overdrive". Instant shifts. Mike ordered this one with 170 cranks, and I have always ridden 175's, so I was worried about that. Can't say that I noticed a difference.



    The chain lines up nicely with the main pivot which I suppose would be anti-anti-squat. The suspension stays super active all the time.

    Overall I can tell I am going like the bike (of course, I liked the silver one), and it addresses my prior minor fit/performance issues with my prior frame.

    Looking forward to the ride home.

    <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Gb3vYcAy8qYHD8HURRwPQw?authkey=Gv1sRgCOmXp-7P05e3owE&feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh4.ggpht.com/_krWgAPsu4g0/SoLgDgVvaOI/AAAAAAAAIEw/VxTp7FrSGhA/s800/Photos%20012.jpg" /></a>
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  96. #96
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    good info and pics Enel! looks great but can you at least PLEASE change the grips for me!?!? that is not asking too much

    also, BIG props to you for considering annoyance of know-it-all Padre in your decision on bars

  97. #97
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    Thanks Enel- for making me jealous once again. My only solace is that frame would not fit me anyway- I can't wait to try one out.

  98. #98
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    Lots of nice features on those bikes! Congrats Mike and Enel! It's funny, in the 26er world there are so many 6" travel bikes.. Great to see things catching up.

  99. #99
    Kathleen in AZ
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    Congrats Enel! I love the cow camo - glad to see it found a home in AZ.

  100. #100
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    Congrats Enel.

  101. #101
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    Couldn't have gone to a better home then. This way we'll great feedback too

  102. #102
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    enel, i'm going to have to demand video footage of these trails. they sound fun! get on it. it's your homework.

  103. #103
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    So the obvious question is.....

    ....what is going to happen with the silver frame? (I almost hate to ask)

    Congrats on the new rig.
    Riden' an Smilin'
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  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    ....what is going to happen with the silver frame? (I almost hate to ask)
    Aha!

  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Aha!
    ??What??

    Riden' an Smilin'
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  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel
    Thus: I have a lot of spacers. I could evacuate them by switching to riser bars, but I like to annoy Padre so I will leave them for a while.
    You appear to be within the 30mm limit. Approved.

  107. #107
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    Very nice, Enel! If Devin just had some funding and some support, I bet he could do some damage in the 29er world. The guy knows bike design. You will have to post some comments and pictures when possible- new thread please.

    I hope DC doesn't jump in with his nonsensical and delusional comments again. He really needs stabilize his post count anyway.

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean salach
    enel, i'm going to have to demand video footage of these trails. they sound fun! get on it. it's your homework.
    Not a 29er, but a darn talented rider from Pheenix (Kenny B) showing off the Willow Dells trails...




    Last edited by DurtGurl; 08-12-2009 at 05:10 PM.

  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurtGurl
    Not a 29er, but a darn talented rider from Pheenix (Kenny B) showing off the Willow Dells trails...




    <input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

    Ken is amazing.

    Let me make it easy and embed your link:

    <object height="452" width="600">


    <embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=2865913&server=vimeo.com&sho w_title=0&show_byline=0&show_portrait=0&color=ff99 33&fullscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" height="452" width="600"></object><input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  110. #110
    is buachail foighneach me
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    sweet! i recognize the footage from your previous vids now. unfortunately for you now though, you have no excuse to not hit bigger, crazier lines there. your assignment still stands.

  111. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean salach
    sweet! i recognize the footage from your previous vids now. unfortunately for you now though, you have no excuse to not hit bigger, crazier lines there. your assignment still stands.
    <input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

    How about this:

    <object height="452" width="600">


    <embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=6074636&server=vimeo.com&sho w_title=0&show_byline=0&show_portrait=0&color=ff99 33&fullscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" height="452" width="600"></object>

    I happened upon another person whilst riding and asked them to shoot a little video.

    That scraping sound you hear is the sound of me messing my pants. This move is not hard, but requires stones because it is straight down at the beginning. The climb up feels vertical, but is not. On video it looks like nothing. I am always amazed by that fact. Anyway, these trails are fun places to play around on....until you eat it.

    This same roller is also at 3:40 in Ken's video for a different perspective.

    Oh, and yeah, I like this bike....a lot. The shorty stem stays. I need to get it on a real trail ride and see how I like it.<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  112. #112
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    that definitely looks like one of those moves that puts your stomach up into your throat the first time you roll up on it. i give you an A.

  113. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel
    How about this:
    OMG! You descend with your left foot forward?!!!?

    That's *CRAZY*.

    I'm not sure it's even legal. The local wizards will no doubt let you know in 3... 2... 1...

    Sure looks like a fun spot to session tho'...

    MC

    P.S. What bike were you riding--couldn't see the frame???

  114. #114
    Kathleen in AZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    OMG! You descend with your left foot forward?!!!?

    That's *CRAZY*.

    I'm not sure it's even legal. The local wizards will no doubt let you know in 3... 2... 1...
    Mikesee... that's how we do it on Lenz bikes in Arizona

  115. #115
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    I had a great ride today and can honestly say I prefer the smaller bike for essentially all the terrain I ride.

    Today's ride was simple: Put it in the granny, put nose on handlebars and climb for 1:15 or so. Try to stay upright and moving forward if possible.

    Gratuitous new bike shot at the old Juniper

    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/0Hub_bLoCSgX1AgHNoRcbQ?authkey=Gv1sRgCOmXp-7P05e3owE&feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.ggpht.com/_krWgAPsu4g0/SoXDv-DVBHI/AAAAAAAAIGM/aFS0q79WI-k/s800/IMG_2083.JPG" /></a>

    Enjoy view, take gratuitous new bike "king of the World" shot.

    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/JZZ6i44MEuKxfBCjia9uZA?authkey=Gv1sRgCOmXp-7P05e3owE&feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh4.ggpht.com/_krWgAPsu4g0/SoXDxWsxCiI/AAAAAAAAIGQ/FXAzKNRgQP0/s800/IMG_2085.JPG" /></a>

    Turn around and bomb back down.

    Fast.

    This bike allows me to go stupidly fast in a very controlled manner. There is simply no drama to it.

    None of this is news.

    Hammerschmidt observations:

    It does not hurt climbing at all, acts just like a normal granny.

    Instant on-the fly shifting under any load, coasting, or stopped is nice.

    Not having to worry about keeping the chain in the bigger ring on shorter downhills to avoid chain slap is nice. The bike is quieter.

    It sort of takes away any perceived advantage (or disadvantage) to a quicker (or slower) engaging hub as I have found that in any rapid ratchet pedal situation, the Hammershmidt ratchets before the hub. I counted 64 clicks in 360 degrees of rotation, so almost the engagement of a King.

    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/Enelmd/BikeMusings2?authkey=Gv1sRgCOmXp-7P05e3owE&feat=embedwebsite#5369913283520393362">< img src="https://lh6.ggpht.com/_krWgAPsu4g0/SoXDriricJI/AAAAAAAAIGA/UFwUwJzipBM/s800/IMG_2075.JPG" /></a>

    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/bBy1KgteMS8uU2xrvu1UEg?authkey=Gv1sRgCOmXp-7P05e3owE&feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.ggpht.com/_krWgAPsu4g0/SoXDsjGq-hI/AAAAAAAAIGE/Lsn_E0WYHz0/s800/IMG_2080.JPG" /></a>

    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/3kwspJsgJf5hNGymSqXrhA?authkey=Gv1sRgCOmXp-7P05e3owE&feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh3.ggpht.com/_krWgAPsu4g0/SoXDttOfxGI/AAAAAAAAIGI/Co7F9UQ55GU/s800/IMG_2081.JPG" /></a>

    Final impression is that this bike is very fun. I nailed the set up right out of the box and have not changed a thing, nor do I intend to until a bigger, stiffer fork comes out. I also am over driving my tires a bit and need something beefier.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  116. #116
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    [QUOTE=Enel]I was not shopping for another bike. I love my Milk Money, Moth and Silver Box.......



    Hmmm, I suspected something was afoot when the silver 'Box went up for sale. If I wasn't still heads-over-heels with the orange 'Box I'd probably be in line but if I'm honest with myself I can't see the need for anything more right now. That is the hotness though.
    "I'll disintegrate over time if I expect my body to try to keep up with my mind" -BM

    Race, Rocks or Road...Just Ride

  117. #117
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    87 seconds worth of video from the new bike's first ride at the local loops. This is from last week--no time to edit/upload until just now...

    <object width="600" height="450"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://www.viddyou.com/get/v2_full/70158.swf" /><embed src="http://www.viddyou.com/get/v2_full/70158.swf" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="600" height="450"></embed></object>

    Fun trails, good times. The fork was ever so slightly stiff on super small stuff the first ~two rides. Dropped a 'psst' worth of psi and added a turn of coil preload to solve it. Plus it's got six more rides worth of use since then--broken in and smoooooove now.

    Loving the new rig, really looking forward to playing with it as the temps drop and fall engulfs us.

    MC

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel
    Hammerschmidt observations:

    It does not hurt climbing at all, acts just like a normal granny.

    Instant on-the fly shifting under any load, coasting, or stopped is nice.

    Not having to worry about keeping the chain in the bigger ring on shorter downhills to avoid chain slap is nice. The bike is quieter.

    It sort of takes away any perceived advantage (or disadvantage) to a quicker (or slower) engaging hub as I have found that in any rapid ratchet pedal situation, the Hammershmidt ratchets before the hub. I counted 64 clicks in 360 degrees of rotation, so almost the engagement of a King.
    Enel, I would like to ask you to elaborate a little on the Hammerschmidt. I appreciate that there is no effective difference when climbing on the granny gear. It is direct drive but how about in overdrive? I run a two ring crank and mostly ride on the middle ring, even climbing. I'll occasionally drop onto the granny when tired, lazy or on extended/steep climbs. I have read comments that there is noticeable drag on the Hammerschmidt in overdrive and I'd appreciate your frank comment.

    Ronnie.
    The trouble with having an open mind is that people will insist on trying to put things in it.

  119. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnie
    I have read comments that there is noticeable drag on the Hammerschmidt in overdrive and I'd appreciate your frank comment.

    Ronnie.
    Those comments are absolutely correct. There is noticeable drag in OD. The placement of the ring more outboard allows one to use more gears in the rear without cross chaining much, but if I climbed a lot in my middle ring, I would not like it.

    As it is, I use the OD for cruising flats, mild climbs, and it does not really bother me.

    The drag is about the same as a Rohloff if that helps. I could not stand that thing on any serious off road climb.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  120. #120
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    Interested in hearing more about the HS, but it's wait-and-see for me. Drag in OD sounds offputting, but instant front shifts under any circumstances sounds awesome. I've only been riding a big bike and a double crank for a week or so. I don't really know what my demands are. I'll be watching to see how the next generation or 2 of HS cranks develop.

  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive
    Interested in hearing more about the HS, but it's wait-and-see for me. Drag in OD sounds offputting, but instant front shifts under any circumstances sounds awesome. I've only been riding a big bike and a double crank for a week or so. I don't really know what my demands are. I'll be watching to see how the next generation or 2 of HS cranks develop.
    I doubt that they will be able to improve it much. You have a ring gear and planetary gears engaged in overdrive. I'm sure they did all they could to make them as efficient as possible. A chain and sprocket drive is the most efficient drive known to man. I remember reading that it is somewhere around 98%.

    Ronnie.
    The trouble with having an open mind is that people will insist on trying to put things in it.

  122. #122
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    That camo paint job is sick!

  123. #123
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    Good eye...

    Quote Originally Posted by Enel
    <input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

    How about this:

    <object height="452" width="600">


    <embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=6074636&server=vimeo.com&sho w_title=0&show_byline=0&show_portrait=0&color=ff99 33&fullscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" height="452" width="600"></object>

    I happened upon another person whilst riding and asked them to shoot a little video.

    That scraping sound you hear is the sound of me messing my pants. This move is not hard, but requires stones because it is straight down at the beginning. The climb up feels vertical, but is not. On video it looks like nothing. I am always amazed by that fact. Anyway, these trails are fun places to play around on....until you eat it.

    This same roller is also at 3:40 in Ken's video for a different perspective.

    Oh, and yeah, I like this bike....a lot. The shorty stem stays. I need to get it on a real trail ride and see how I like it.<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">
    whoever shot that video has a great eye for composition.
    I ride with the best dogs.




  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsieb
    whoever shot that video has a great eye for composition.
    Funny story. I just randomly met that guy out on the trail (was it you?).

    He was a bit lost and sort of hiking his rigid Vassago (nice bike) out of there. I was leading him back to the parking area, and asked if we could stop and shoot a little video of me on this roller. He didn't really know how to run the camera, so I started the video filming, gave him the camera and he just followed me around.

    I thought it turned out pretty good all considered!
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnie
    I doubt that they will be able to improve it much. You have a ring gear and planetary gears engaged in overdrive. I'm sure they did all they could to make them as efficient as possible. A chain and sprocket drive is the most efficient drive known to man. I remember reading that it is somewhere around 98%.

    Ronnie.
    Probably. I was thinking more of weight and price.

  126. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel
    Those comments are absolutely correct. There is noticeable drag in OD. The placement of the ring more outboard allows one to use more gears in the rear without cross chaining much, but if I climbed a lot in my middle ring, I would not like it.

    As it is, I use the OD for cruising flats, mild climbs, and it does not really bother me.

    The drag is about the same as a Rohloff if that helps. I could not stand that thing on any serious off road climb.
    Should also note that unlike a 2/3 ring setup, you can use all the cogs with each front gearing. You may be fine with the low range/11 or 12 on the climbs.
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  127. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive
    Probably. I was thinking more of weight and price.
    The same would go for weight. You can only make it so light before durability/reliability suffers. Planetary gearing is even older than derailleurs.
    mtbtires.com
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  128. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive
    Probably. I was thinking more of weight and price.
    Agreed, and in regards to weight, I am waiting for the carbon HS

  129. #129
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    I'm wondering how long the ring gear on a HS will last. Will be interesting to see how many miles Enel gets out of it on front before it's toast.

  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    I'm wondering how long the ring gear on a HS will last. Will be interesting to see how many miles Enel gets out of it on front before it's toast.
    In my particular case it will last years and years.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  131. #131
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    I dig the angle...

    The behind the crown/wheel camera angle is awesome.

    Only thing that bummed me out was that the video stopped right at the twisty, rocky, crazy section I wanted to see this bike roll through.

    You tease!
    Uh-huh, uh-huh. Okay. Um Can you repeat the part of the stuff where you said all about uuhhh, things. Uhh... the things.

  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poster Nutbag
    The behind the crown/wheel camera angle is awesome.

    Only thing that bummed me out was that the video stopped right at the twisty, rocky, crazy section I wanted to see this bike roll through.

    You tease!
    No tease--just got tired of editing. Too much on the plate of late.

    How long did it take you to figure out which trail?

    Headed back up there tomorrow PM if you're still not buying, selling, or processing anything that's sold or bought...

    MC

  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel
    In my particular case it will last years and years.
    Let us know how it actually turns out, versus what the crystal ball looks like.

    My first set of Truvative Stylo aluminum ring gears were junked, granny and middle in 700 miles, as well as 990 cassette and 991 chain. That's wear over 2 ring gears, not one little puny 22 tooth granny doing all the work, all the time. The steel ones I've replaced them with, while heavier, are doing much, much better in the wear department.

    Of course, E riders like Fo... sell their bikes just as everything is worn out from E riding and E reviews.

  134. #134
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    What to say.

    I am full of new bike lust at this moment. I am enjoying the Medium Box much more than the Large it replaced. Is it because of the lower BB? Is it the shorter TT/wheelbase? Probably a combo of both.

    All I can say is that it does exactly what I want it to do, when I want it to do it, and it has no bad habits.

    I liked the Larger frame I had, but tolerated its lack of (for lack of a better word) friskiness. It always seemed a bit ponderous. Capable? Definitely. Fun? Not so much. I always said it would be the first to go if I had to thin the stable.

    This 6" bike is just as fun as its 5" and 3" brethren that I ride as well. On top of that it is amazingly competent at high speeds and low. I would be hard pressed to pick a favorite bike at this point. The 6" is truly more bike than required for my terrain. The 5" is probably the best all around compromise "one bike" and the Milk Money is just plain silly fun in a stupid idea that really works sort of way, so I would probably keep the MM if y'all made me choose one.

    Anyway, just a love note from the trail. This bike is remarkable. It combines technical competence to a degree I have never experienced before with reptilian pleasure button pushing fun. "More. More. Ride me more."

    Also, I found another Hammerschmidt annoyance: you can not oil/clean your chain by back pedaling. You must forward pedal.

    I swear I like testing stuff more than I like riding in and of itself. Sad statement, but I must be a gear whore.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel
    Also, I found another Hammerschmidt annoyance: you can not oil/clean your chain by back pedaling. You must forward pedal.
    Mine does just fine pedalling backwards...maybe it's the I9 hubs


  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter
    Mine does just fine pedalling backwards...maybe it's the I9 hubs
    That's interesting because I always thought the DT hubs were pretty friction free when freewheeling. Worlds better than any King I have used.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  137. #137
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    I finally got the bike out on to my favorite "testing" loop. This loop involves slow, steep climbs with innumerable water bars to get over; techy descents taken slowly because it is so loose, and rocky, and leaving the trail will involve being punctured in some way by the local flora.

    There is a flattish/downhill one mile section where I invariably go head over teakettle at least once and have only cleaned once (before today).

    It is basically a slow technical ride in loose terrain as opposed to the rocks noted above.

    I had no issues with the bike other than is seems to take the drama out of a lot of the tougher moves. I have made most of these moves before, but usually there is a bit of anxiety/panic before/during/after the move. Today I was amazed to find myself rolling up to a techy section or around a switchback, briefly track standing while contemplating line choice, then simply plowing down the chosen line with little or no difficulty.

    I wish I could comment more on techy climbing, but I got into a major over heating bonk on the way out and was pushing anything remotely uphill. To finish it off, I got a pinch flat on the Rampage 3 minutes into the glorious steep loose 8 minute final descent. I am out riding/abusing these tires pretty badly right now. I'm throwing a Stout on there next.

    No photos, sorry.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  138. #138
    mvi
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    How much bike is needed...

    More than I can do in those clips, but how much bike is needed?
    Just a 2 second search on youtube gives you this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP9aIMvDQdo

  139. #139
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    Enel- what size is your Moth and MM?

  140. #140

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    My road bike

    MY awesome bike

  141. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3DO
    Enel- what size is your Moth and MM?
    Both medium.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  142. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCoolBikeDudeWithBikes
    MY awesome bike
    I'm sure a BMX bike under someone with skilz could do anything that bike could do.

    I have also heard that Specialized is the only road bike worth considering.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  143. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel
    I have also heard that Specialized is the only road bike worth considering.
    ...you have heard correctly!


  144. #144
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    Does anybody know what WTB saddle is on the Maroon Lenz?

    Thanks.

  145. #145
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    Update:

    I am still pretty much still pleased as punch. This bike is ridiculous in the best possible way. I personally have never ridden a bike that is its equal in technical terrain. The only other bike I can remember being close was a demo I did on a Horst 6-Pack with 170mm Zoke.

    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Gbxk5J3bQuOVGY5_ExFqBQ?authkey=Gv1sRgCOmXp-7P05e3owE&feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.ggpht.com/_krWgAPsu4g0/SphXfYUMbhI/AAAAAAAAIIk/2emeDUKW-vU/s800/IMG_2167.JPG" /></a>

    The only real changes are that I put a Stout on the back. I was pinch flatting the Rampage almost every ride. I should set it up tubeless, but I have been lazy with the mess and have not done it yet and the Gordo's are not the best tubeless.

    Today I felt up to some good climbing, and I can tell you that the Stout is significantly grippier than a Rampage or Nevegal in loose stuff. Even in heinous, steep, off camber, sidehillish, loose stuff I had no trouble keeping the rear hooked up. The main benefit is no pinch flats so far.

    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/YdxOxHDF8jlMZ1m4Mp1wmQ?authkey=Gv1sRgCOmXp-7P05e3owE&feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.ggpht.com/_krWgAPsu4g0/SphXhtlnaUI/AAAAAAAAIIo/VnPMO6d_kCQ/s800/IMG_2168.JPG" /></a>

    This bike climbs deliberately under me. I definitely feel the weight of the wheels and tires, but that is a good trade off. I believe it would climb just like the Moth with a similar wheel/tire combo. Honestly, I wonder why I have the Moth now. I am totally spoiled by all the travel that when I ride the "small" 120mm bikes I feel all beat up by the trail. I have been even more wussified.

    <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/BFGVzVMBnlx-je0GAahyEw?authkey=Gv1sRgCOmXp-7P05e3owE&feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh4.ggpht.com/_krWgAPsu4g0/SphXj5r8z1I/AAAAAAAAIIs/LJcO2FfPE5Y/s800/IMG_2170.JPG" /></a>

    One interesting question is why does the Nevegal on the front of this bike seem to hook up and track so much more confidently than the same tire on the front of the MM and Moth. It just holds a line in a way the other bikes do not. I do not think it is the longer fork or the frame, but do think it must have something to do with the stiffness and width of the Gordo. I have Flows on the other bikes. Thoughts?
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel
    Update:

    The only real changes are that I put a Stout on the back. I was pinch flatting the Rampage almost every ride. I should set it up tubeless, but I have been lazy with the mess and have not done it yet and the Gordo's are not the best tubeless.
    Is it just me or does the Stout look smaller than the Nevegal?

  147. #147
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    i wouldn't doubt it on a gordo. my stout is barely wider than my ardent on gordos.

  148. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel
    One interesting question is why does the Nevegal on the front of this bike seem to hook up and track so much more confidently than the same tire on the front of the MM and Moth. It just holds a line in a way the other bikes do not.
    wow- would you reccommend the box OVER a new moth? I mean if it climbs the same, and you get more travel, what the hay, am I right? (ie do you see yourself riding mainly the box and the money?)

  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean salach
    i wouldn't doubt it on a gordo. my stout is barely wider than my ardent on gordos.
    <input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

    I have never been impressed with the size of the Stout. The grip and sidewalls are impressive though.

    Box vs Moth will be personal preference, but why buy a Box and build it up with light wheels? You could, but again, why? We need Mendoncyclesmith to chime in
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  150. #150
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    A couple more months into it:

    I still like the bike. Nothing has really changed from my earlier reviews. I added a FR3 front tire to the rear Stout, and stopped running the Gordos tubeless.

    Weighed it the other day at 35.5 lbs.

    I've been riding it 3-6 hours a week, mostly on slow techy rock terrain where this thing rules. I finally got out on a big XC ride yesterday with tons of steep, loose climbing and smooth, sweet, carvy descending. Interestingly, I found that the weight which bothered me initially, I just don't notice much any more. I guess I have adapted to the bike. My lighter bikes just feel really fast now. I would be hard pressed to imagine a better technical climbing bike than this one. If you have the motor, it will climb it.

    I do get more pedal strikes than on the large silver, high BB Box I had previously. I think the benefits outweigh this though. A big difference is that the large, high BB bike never felt really comfortable on smoother, carvy XC trails, it just didn't feel like it wanted to turn. It would do it, but not effortlessly. This smaller, lower BB frame does not suffer from that.

    It again, feels like a deeper, heavier duty version of the Moth or even the Milk Money. Unfortunately, those bikes have not gotten much love at all since I have been putting this thing through its paces. I really like riding it which I could not say for the Silver Lunchbox. That bike was uber-competent, but not really fun if that makes sense. In other words, the Silver bike sat in the garage a lot. This one does not.

    The Hammerschmidt seems to be holding up okay. The carbon bash guard has a few nicks in it, as do the pedal ends. I am waiting for the hit that breaks off the little plastic shifter housing on the bottom, but that has not happened yet. Close, but no cigar. I have not done any maintenance on it. Is there anything I need to do?

    I also upgraded the DT hub with the higher engagement star ratchet, and can't say it has changed a thing in my life, but it sounds cool.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  151. #151
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    For the past month or so, I have been riding single speed hardtails exclusively, and I let the Box languish. Coming back to it after that much time off was an eye opener. It was like getting a second first impression.

    My thoughts aren't any different from what is written above, and I can't say as I am dissatisfied with any particular technical aspect of the bike. After riding a hardtail for a while, it is astonishing what all this suspension and some low range gears will allow one to climb. I was super stoked this weekend to clean a very loose, very steep, very long climb that I have never cleaned in eight years of trying.

    The Hammerschmidt thumb shifter broke in November, and I now run it with a grip-shifter without difficulty.

    I have changed the wheels to Flows from Gordos for increased tubless-ability and slight weight loss.

    I swapped out the creaky King inset for a Cane Creek unit.

    Front tire is now a Dissent and the rear FR3. I have not had many flats with this combo at all.

    I keep hearing about the power sucking bob on Behemoth frames from folks I respect on these boards. I just don't notice it. Today I really tried to notice it, even pushing big gears on the road with the Pro-Pedal off. I see no movement of the rear end unless I stand to climb.

    Two things come to mind when I think about why I don't notice this and others do:

    One is shock tune: mine is a stock RP23 shock which has a high compression tune and a medium rebound tune. It suits the bike for sure.

    The second is that the Hammerschmidt always runs the chainline through the main pivot, even when in the "middle" ring.

    I suspect those noticing the bob more tend to hammer in the middle or big ring with less damped shocks.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  152. #152
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    Two year(ish) update with thread resurrection:

    I still have this bike. I still love riding it.

    I dropped the rear travel to 5" and use a Rockshox Tapered Reba RLT Ti at 140mm up front. Details here.

    Hammerschmidt still works great.

    I primarily ride rigid and single speed, but when I do pull this bike out, it never fails to blow my doors off. I generally reserve it for the steepest climbs, and roughest, fastest descents. It climbs great, descends with authority, and handles beautifully.

    I don't see myself ever needing "more" bike. I have no plans to replace it or "upgrade" it. It is nice to see a few new designs finally coming to market that mimic the Lenz geometry. Too bad on the wait as I have really, really enjoyed the last two years.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  153. #153
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    Holy thread resurrection

    Thanks for the update

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