New Progressive Short Travel 29er Trail Bike Help..- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    New Progressive Short Travel 29er Trail Bike Help..

    Hello everyone,

    I live in the Charlotte, NC area and soon will be in the market for a "forever" bike, or at least something that's worth upgrading over a long period of time. Currently I have a Giant Stance 29 1 (https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/stance-29-1). While this has been a great beginner FS, especially after some upgrades to the drivetrain and tires, I feel I will soon need something more.

    I'm looking into something a little more progressive with that new "longer, slacker" geometry for some added confidence on the downhill, while still being able to rocket up climbs, as even the smallest amount of downhill here in the Piedmont has to be earned. I don't think riding 95% of the time in this area (and not doing anything too wild) will require anything more than 130mm travel in the front and 120 or so out back. Something quick, agile, playful that can dominant the climbs is what I'm really aiming for. A good pedaling platform and anti squat would be nice as well.

    My budget is somewhere between $3-4.5k. So far I am looking at these three builds:

    Tallboy 4 $3399.00 (AR) - $4199 (CR): Same components but going from alloy to carbon. (please chime in if anyone thinks the little added stiffness and very slight loss in weight would be worth the money.) This has the lowest component spec of anything I'm looking at, but you get that geometry, VPP suspension, and the SC frame warranty, upon other benefits. I've heard its equally good at climbing as it is descending, both quite good. ~31-32.5 lbs.

    https://www.competitivecyclist.com/S...O+5000%5D&nf=1

    Ibis Ripley V4 Deore $4199 - $4591 (if upgraded to Kashima Fox Factory Susp): Going straight to a lightweight full carbon frame here, by far the lightest bike I'm looking at. Pretty solid spec, the Ripley is known for being very playful, a GREAT climber, and still having a nice suspension platform, perhaps not quite as confident on rough descents as the Tallboy or Riftzone. ~29 lbs

    https://www.ibiscycles.com/bikes/ripley

    Marin Rift Zone Carbon 2 $4399. New carbon front triangle with an alloy rear. Highest stock spec of the three coming with Fox DPX2 shock, Shimano SLX drive train, etc. This one weighs about the same as the aluminum Tallboy at 32.5 or so lbs. From what I've read its a very capable descender and while it isnt a BAD climber, it may be lacking vs the other two bikes here, and it's MultiTrac suspension isn't quite as refined as the VPP or DW link.

    https://www.marinbikes.com/bikes/20-rift-zone-carbon-2

    All three bikes have similar progressive edging on enduro geometry as is the direction these new short travel bikes are going in and would all be a welcome upgrade to what I have now. I'm able to demo both the Ripley and Tallboy at my LBS (not sure about the RZ yet). I just want to make sure my next large bike purchase is one that will last and when I do want to put more money into it, it will be worth it.

    If anyone has any personal experience or insight with these bikes, I very much appreciate your comments. I also welcome additional build recommendations. Thanks! (sorry this was lengthy AF)



    Stance 29er - SRAM NX/GX/XX1 - ODI Grips - Tubeless DHF/Aggressor - Deity Bladerunner/Speedtrap - Bontrager Line Comp 30 54t

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    I demoed both the Ripley and Tallboy. I was planning on buying the Ripley because itís lighter but it didnít fit me right. When I demoed the tallboy I knew within a few turns that this was the bike for me. I demoed it a second time to make sure it wasnít a fluke. The lowerlink rear suspension is amazing. The TB handling is what sold me. You canít go wrong with either. If you keep bikes a long time like me spend as much as you can so you donít have to upgrade later. Definitely go carbon.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by dustyman View Post
    I demoed both the Ripley and Tallboy. I was planning on buying the Ripley because itís lighter but it didnít fit me right. When I demoed the tallboy I knew within a few turns that this was the bike for me. I demoed it a second time to make sure it wasnít a fluke. The lowerlink rear suspension is amazing. The TB handling is what sold me. You canít go wrong with either. If you keep bikes a long time like me spend as much as you can so you donít have to upgrade later. Definitely go carbon.
    Which carbon model did you go with if you don't mind me asking?

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    I have a Rift Zone 3 that costs about 2500 and I love it, but if I had the budget I would go for the ripley.

  5. #5
    ejj
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    For 4K try the Ripley and the TB. As mentioned above, they have similar numbers but feel and ride differently in person. And really thatís what you are paying for here.

    Skip the factory suspension on the Ripley. The shock is essentially the same. The FIT fork is nice but the Performance is nice too, and cheaper/easier to service. Make sure you service regularly, as a serviced performance fork beats a non-serviced FIT any day. If you get the Ripley upgrade to the Bike Yoke dropper.

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    I was looking at these bikes not long ago. I bought an Scott Spark RC this year because I thought I would only have time for races and training then covid happened...

    Anyways, demo'd a Ripley and wasn't impressed. The XL felt really short, lots of over steer. Sure the bike pedaled well, but it was heavy on the climbs and harsh on rock gardens. Felt ok on flow trails.

    Tried a Tallboy, instant difference. The fit was way better and the bike felt more stable. Sure I had to flip a switch when climbing but rock gardens felt much better on the downs. It had the same downhill personality as my Spark, it just wanted to go down and let you hang on. Although, it did feel a lot less playful and a lot more down to business.

    My friend with a Marlin said to just get a Tallboy. It would climb better and descend the same.

    Bikes like the Top Fuel, Scalpel SE, Epic EVO, Hei Hei, Signal Peak, Sniper T, etc might be worth investigating if you really want a bike that is playful, agile, and climbs well but can still handle descents. The problem I ran into with the Tallboy is it still had 120mm travel so when I took the bike where the geometry wanted to go it got overwhelmed.

  7. #7
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    I just bought the Transition Spur instead of the Ripley, I had the tallboy 3 and it sucked I feel because of the slack sta. I lived in Brevard and would say this Transition will be the perfect bike for someone that wants to climb and descend fast. I have a rocky mountain element, and it's also as much bike as you can handle for most 95pct of riders. Even the Epic Evo I have is more bike than the average can take to it's limit. Since you want to rocket uphill. The element is legit as it gets. The Spur might be better, I won't know till next week though.

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    Short Travel Summary

    Hi, I've compiled a list of 110-120mm bikes for you guys so that we can easily compare the geo's of each.

    New Progressive Short Travel 29er Trail Bike Help..-tcmhm1i.jpg

    Disclaimer: All of these are directly copied from the manufacturer's website except for some BB height measurements in which some are estimated through BB Drop. Measurements here are for a large frame. Sorry if I made a mistake, let me know so I can edit it.

  9. #9
    LDC is ded,deth by trollz
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    Quote Originally Posted by giant8900 View Post
    Hi, I've compiled a list of 110-120mm bikes for you guys so that we can easily compare the geo's of each.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	tCmHM1i.jpg 
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    Disclaimer: All of these are directly copied from the manufacturer's website except for some BB height measurements in which some are estimated through BB Drop. Measurements here are for a large frame. Sorry if I made a mistake, let me know so I can edit it.
    Thank you! Can you please add the rocky mountain element. The XC bike that started the trailification of XC bikes. Even though it's 100mm in the rear you can adjust the geo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Thank you! Can you please add the rocky mountain element. The XC bike that started the trailification of XC bikes. Even though it's 100mm in the rear you can adjust the geo.
    I'll check back a few days and update it again. :-)

  11. #11
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    Let me know how you like the Spur, looks like a slick ride!
    Stance 29er - SRAM NX/GX/XX1 - ODI Grips - Tubeless DHF/Aggressor - Deity Bladerunner/Speedtrap - Bontrager Line Comp 30 54t

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    I just bought the Transition Spur instead of the Ripley, I had the tallboy 3 and it sucked I feel because of the slack sta. I lived in Brevard and would say this Transition will be the perfect bike for someone that wants to climb and descend fast. I have a rocky mountain element, and it's also as much bike as you can handle for most 95pct of riders. Even the Epic Evo I have is more bike than the average can take to it's limit. Since you want to rocket uphill. The element is legit as it gets. The Spur might be better, I won't know till next week though.
    Let me know how you like the Spur, looks like a slick ride! Any specific reason you chose it over the Ripley? Also, the TB4 had basically a complete redesign, I think it's pretty far off from it's predecessor.
    Stance 29er - SRAM NX/GX/XX1 - ODI Grips - Tubeless DHF/Aggressor - Deity Bladerunner/Speedtrap - Bontrager Line Comp 30 54t

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Thank you! Can you please add the rocky mountain element. The XC bike that started the trailification of XC bikes. Even though it's 100mm in the rear you can adjust the geo.
    This is very helpful, thank you. Definitely looking at something more in the 120/130 R/F travel that can ride a little bigger than it's travel suggests. Not completely opposed to 120/120 depending.
    Stance 29er - SRAM NX/GX/XX1 - ODI Grips - Tubeless DHF/Aggressor - Deity Bladerunner/Speedtrap - Bontrager Line Comp 30 54t

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    Quote Originally Posted by ejj View Post
    For 4K try the Ripley and the TB. As mentioned above, they have similar numbers but feel and ride differently in person. And really thatís what you are paying for here.

    Skip the factory suspension on the Ripley. The shock is essentially the same. The FIT fork is nice but the Performance is nice too, and cheaper/easier to service. Make sure you service regularly, as a serviced performance fork beats a non-serviced FIT any day. If you get the Ripley upgrade to the Bike Yoke dropper.
    Have you ridden both the TB and Ripley by chance?
    Stance 29er - SRAM NX/GX/XX1 - ODI Grips - Tubeless DHF/Aggressor - Deity Bladerunner/Speedtrap - Bontrager Line Comp 30 54t

  15. #15
    LDC is ded,deth by trollz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xanath283 View Post
    Let me know how you like the Spur, looks like a slick ride! Any specific reason you chose it over the Ripley? Also, the TB4 had basically a complete redesign, I think it's pretty far off from it's predecessor.
    I plan on making some posts and videos about the Spur.

    Specifically, here's why. They really don't recommend using a 120 fork on the Ripley, at all. I talked to the engineers themselves about it. We talked about axle to crown of different brands, offset, short cranks, etc. They just don't recommend it. I want to use the SID 35. I rode the jet 9 RDO in Pisgah btw. That thing is definitely up your alley. The giant trance 29 also.

    Another specific reason is weight. My Spur is going to be 24lbs with pedals. The riply around 29lbs is a lot of bike after 6hrs of riding. That's not everyones plan though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post

    Another specific reason is weight. My Spur is going to be 24lbs with pedals. The riply around 29lbs is a lot of bike after 6hrs of riding. That's not everyones plan though.
    There's only about a half pound of frame weight difference between the Spur and Ripley, and if you want to consider that the Ripley should be shod with a 130 fork, meaning a pike or 34, in lieu of a SID, then add another 3/4 pound.

    At most, that makes a Ripley 1 1/4 pounds heavier with the same parts, and definitely not five.
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    LDC is ded,deth by trollz
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    There's only about a half pound of frame weight difference between the Spur and Ripley, and if you want to consider that the Ripley should be shod with a 130 fork, meaning a pike or 34, in lieu of a SID, then add another 3/4 pound.

    At most, that makes a Ripley 1 1/4 pounds heavier with the same parts, and definitely not five.
    How were you able to read my post but not read the actual weight of the Ripley he posted. 29 lbs. If that bike is 29lbs, and my bike is 24lbs, that's 5lbs. Reading is imperative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    How were you able to read my post but not read the actual weight of the Ripley he posted. 29 lbs. If that bike is 29lbs, and my bike is 24lbs, that's 5lbs. Reading is imperative.
    Grand. How is your 24 pound Spur even remotely relevant to this thread then, unless just to brag, eh smart guy?
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  19. #19
    LDC is ded,deth by trollz
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    Grand. How is your 24 pound Spur even remotely relevant to this thread then, unless just to brag, eh smart guy?
    Because he asked about progressive short travel trail bikes. Then he asked me why I didn't buy the Ripley. Not sure how having a bike with GX is bragging, but okay. Didn't mean to offend you with my 4600 dollar bike.

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    Guerrilla Gravity Trail Pistol

    Rally build out is $4795, you can custom parts and such to get the perfect build out

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    I just bought the Transition Spur instead of the Ripley, I had the tallboy 3 and it sucked I feel because of the slack sta. I lived in Brevard and would say this Transition will be the perfect bike for someone that wants to climb and descend fast. I have a rocky mountain element, and it's also as much bike as you can handle for most 95pct of riders. Even the Epic Evo I have is more bike than the average can take to it's limit. Since you want to rocket uphill. The element is legit as it gets. The Spur might be better, I won't know till next week though.
    Transition Spur looks like a sweet bike!


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    Quote Originally Posted by mnyquist View Post
    Transition Spur looks like a sweet bike!


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    Sure does! Nice mix of progressive geo and traditional lines IMO. My only nitpick with the info in this thread is the Transition site lists the medium GX build at 26.9 lbs. without pedals not 24 lbs. That doesnít concern me, just sayiní.

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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    There's only about a half pound of frame weight difference between the Spur and Ripley, and if you want to consider that the Ripley should be shod with a 130 fork, meaning a pike or 34, in lieu of a SID, then add another 3/4 pound.

    At most, that makes a Ripley 1 1/4 pounds heavier with the same parts, and definitely not five.
    ^ this. The math doesn't add up. (though the Ripley is spec'd with beefy tires last I checked.)

    When comparing a good quality carbon 120/120 bike vs. a good quality carbon 120/130 bike with the same build (ish), you'd have to be a moron to think there is going to be a 5 lb difference. It's not physically possible.
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

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    The Banshee Phantom (aluminum) would fit in this group and scored well in a Vital MTB short-travel 29er review earlier this year.

  25. #25
    ejj
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    I was also thinking the math was off. To be honest, a good frame can save you some weight, but not tons. For example, the Ripley and Ripmo frame are very close in weight.

    If you put the same kit on competing bikes, the weight will typically be within a pound.

    Tires, cassette, wheels, forkóthese are common ways to go on a diet.

    The new SID shock and Fork are light. Some people want to put a Pike/36 and Piggyback on their down country bikeóand this is cool. When you put on appropriate tires and brakes for that sort of riding you end up closer to the 30lb numbers.

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    Yup, Trail Pistol/Pistola, because itís a durable and progressive geo bike that will handle anything you throw at it, geo adjust headset as well as two lower cup heights, options to adjust suspension feel (Plush or Crush), options to change seat stays for long travel travel 29Ē or 27.5 wheels, AND the Pistol/Pistola works well with 27+.

    Plus, itís made entirely in Denver Colorado!

    Itís just about the most versatile 28er out there.

    I lived twenty years in the Knoxville area, ride a ton in NC, the Pistola would be a sweet bike for out there!

    Quote Originally Posted by Topgear24 View Post
    Guerrilla Gravity Trail Pistol

    Rally build out is $4795, you can custom parts and such to get the perfect build out
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Yup, Trail Pistol/Pistola, because itís a durable and progressive geo bike that will handle anything you throw at it, geo adjust headset as well as two lower cup heights, options to adjust suspension feel (Plush or Crush), options to change seat stays for long travel travel 29Ē or 27.5 wheels, AND the Pistol/Pistola works well with 27+.

    Plus, itís made entirely in Denver Colorado!

    Itís just about the most versatile 28er out there.

    I lived twenty years in the Knoxville area, ride a ton in NC, the Pistola would be a sweet bike for out there!
    GG really ought to be paying you for all the marketing work you put in for them

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    Quote Originally Posted by ejj View Post
    I was also thinking the math was off. To be honest, a good frame can save you some weight, but not tons. For example, the Ripley and Ripmo frame are very close in weight.

    If you put the same kit on competing bikes, the weight will typically be within a pound.

    Tires, cassette, wheels, forkóthese are common ways to go on a diet.

    The new SID shock and Fork are light. Some people want to put a Pike/36 and Piggyback on their down country bikeóand this is cool. When you put on appropriate tires and brakes for that sort of riding you end up closer to the 30lb numbers.
    Pretty much!

    My ďdown countryĒ bike is 25 pounds with appropriate tires and brakes in full party mode. For Sedona, I added the Carbon Dropper, 180 front rotor, magic Mary/nobby nic. I picked up about 600 grams.



    The issue with comparing a ripely and ripmo is that one gets a 34 and the other gets a 36. Thatís a half pound difference alone. Frames are off by 3/4 pound, so the net build with identical components would be 1.25 off, but some people get negligent with tire choice and put on 2600 grams worth of tires, where I run 1650 combo and sometimes lighter. There are a few other odds and ends which really add up as well hidden in brakes and rims.


    But saying two identical bikes are 4-5 pounds apart is negligent, and itís also a very poor way of testing bikes. Of course you will enjoy a 4+ pound lighter bike in the same Genre. ďOMG it climbs so much betterĒ-Tester. no shit...




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    Quote Originally Posted by GT87 View Post
    GG really ought to be paying you for all the marketing work you put in for them

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    They have a great brand ambassador program.

    Iím also intrigued by the concept of a 28er. Perfect balance between 27.5 with almost the rollover of the 29.


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  30. #30
    LDC is ded,deth by trollz
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    The spur that is 4,999 is 3lbs lighter than the Ripley that is 4591 he posted. I said mine was 5lbs lighter when he asked me why I didn't buy a Ripley. Because it wouldn't be 24lbs with the same parts. Show me a stock 24lb Ripley v4.

    On my specific Spur. I already have nicer parts the the 9 grand build on hand. I don't want sram anything except suspension.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    The spur that is 4,999 is 3lbs lighter than the Ripley that is 4591 he posted. I said mine was 5lbs lighter when he asked me why I didn't buy a Ripley. Because it wouldn't be 24lbs with the same parts. Show me a stock 24lb Ripley v4.

    On my specific Spur. I already have nicer parts the the 9 grand build on hand. I don't want sram anything except suspension.
    Apples to apples the only difference in weight is going to be frame, shock, fork. Sounds like you have very nice parts on hand. The Weight difference between the two with the exact same build is probably somewhere around 1lb to 1 1/2lb. If I ever thought of putting the new Sid on the Ripley I would put a 10mm bottom cup/race extension to not steepen the seat tube angle any more. Having said all that I just bought a Ripley V4. If I was racing competitively or participating at the ďpointyĒ end of xcm events I would have picked a different bike. That new Transition does look like a great rig that checks a lot of boxes for me. Iíd be interested to hear how you like it after you have some time on it.

  32. #32
    LDC is ded,deth by trollz
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    Some of you need help with reading and math. The SID 35 fork and shock combined weigh less than a Pike. So your frame weights and all your estimates are way off. Thatd how your claimed only 1.25 pounds is really 3 stock, and 5 with minor parts changes. A Ripley will never weigh the same as a Spur. EVER.

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    This guy is super annoying.

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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by GT87 View Post
    This guy is super annoying.
    He's the new MTB123, but somehow worse, plus I ride with 123 sometimes, and he's a very good rider.


    DetroitRockCity claims to be buying an expensive lightweight bike, and claims to have raced Supercross. That's all I know about him/her.
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Some of you need help with reading and math. The SID 35 fork and shock combined weigh less than a Pike. So your frame weights and all your estimates are way off. Thatd how your claimed only 1.25 pounds is really 3 stock, and 5 with minor parts changes. A Ripley will never weigh the same as a Spur. EVER.
    Given a half pound in frame weight difference, and the fact that a Ripley can run a SID, sure it could. It just depends on what one wishes to spend. 180 hubs, Berd spoke, and some 330 gram 30mm German rims, and you're well on your way. Part for part, of course you're ultimately right, because a Spur frame is lighter than a Ripley, but a Ripley can easily be built lighter than a Spur, no?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    ....... A Ripley will never weigh the same as a Spur. EVER.
    Given the frame weight is only a half-pound difference, and you can EASILY run a Fox Step-Cast 120 fork, this is one of the dumbest things I've read in a while. And I read a LOT of dumb shit...
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by GT87 View Post
    This guy is super annoying.
    Yeah, everyone that comes across his comments comes to the same conclusion. Some of us have known this for a while. You have to pick and choose your battles.
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaneDetroitCity View Post
    Some of you need help with reading and math. The SID 35 fork and shock combined weigh less than a Pike. So your frame weights and all your estimates are way off. Thatd how your claimed only 1.25 pounds is really 3 stock, and 5 with minor parts changes. A Ripley will never weigh the same as a Spur. EVER.
    I donít believe that to be the case. You may need help with social interaction with other humans. Your math is off. The new Rips are selling with the fox 34 grip 2. I could have immediately turned around and sold it to purchase a new Sid. You say ibis implicitly told you that you canít run the fork at 120 but you are the only place that information is coming from. Several people have run it with a step cast set at 120. Throw a 10mm crown race adapter on it and youíve changed nothing but travel. I could easily build the rip in the 24.5 pound range with the parts I swapped onto the bike for less than $6000.00. If you break it down the only difference is frame weight. What is that number??? The rest can be replicated. Is it stock? No! Most people on MTBR arenít running stock anyways so whatís your point. Oh by the way, they donít sell the Ripley ďstockĒ with a Pike so not sure why you are referencing that fork if weíre talking stock??

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by giant8900 View Post
    Hi, I've compiled a list of 110-120mm bikes for you guys so that we can easily compare the geo's of each.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Disclaimer: All of these are directly copied from the manufacturer's website except for some BB height measurements in which some are estimated through BB Drop. Measurements here are for a large frame. Sorry if I made a mistake, let me know so I can edit it.
    If you're looking at comparing short travel 29ers, Evil Following v3 should be a candidate at 120mm rear / 130mm front and new updated geometry.
    Kokopelli Racing

    "Curb drops to flat, or curb drops to transition? There's a BIG difference there." Qfactor03

  40. #40
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    I like the bikes I ride, not unlike all the other folks that post stoke about their bikes.

    Itís the internet, thereís no such thing as truth 🙄

    But yeah, GG makes good bikes and theyíre good folks.

    Can you call the place that made your frame and talk to the designer?

    It feels good stoking the GG 🔥

    Quote Originally Posted by GT87 View Post
    GG really ought to be paying you for all the marketing work you put in for them

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    GG Megatrail 27.5 (Braaap!)
    GG Trail Pistola 27+/29 (speedy)
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by yangpei View Post
    If you're looking at comparing short travel 29ers, Evil Following v3 should be a candidate at 120mm rear / 130mm front and new updated geometry.
    Got you.

    New Progressive Short Travel 29er Trail Bike Help..-bikecompare2.jpg

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by giant8900 View Post
    Got you.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Intense Sniper T should be on there.


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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Intense Sniper T should be on there.


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    Where is the Giant Trance?


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    Quote Originally Posted by FJSnoozer View Post
    Where is the Giant Trance?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Intense Sniper T should be on there.


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    Updated.

    New Progressive Short Travel 29er Trail Bike Help..-bikecompare3.jpg

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    The geo number I like the most from my Tallboy 4 is the steep seat tube angle. Only wish frame was a bit lighter. For anyone buying a new frame I would shy away from anything under 75 degrees. The steep seat tube combined with slack head tube works well even when climbing steeps.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by giant8900 View Post
    Updated.

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    pivot trail 429 too

    I personally dont love VPP based suspension for climbing. There is always that little bit of pedal bob. We dont have extended climbs then a long descent we have up and down trails (250 elevation up, then down) so you cant be constantly locking the suspension.

    If you are climbing 5 miles then descending 5 miles, it is easy to lock out the shock so the tallboy climbs fine. But if the climb is technical, then you want to leave the shock on and now you have pedal bob.

    The ripley with dw-link climbs better than vpp but I dont think dw-link descends as well, it just isnt as plush. Im riding a ripmo now. It climbs better than my old tallboy ltc, but definitely doesnt descend as smoothly.

    I am still working to adjust the suspension. At this point I dont love the new steep seat tube angles, but I love dw-link

  47. #47
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    Lots of good bikes, I chose the pivot trail 429 in this category.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbrockenchain View Post
    The geo number I like the most from my Tallboy 4 is the steep seat tube angle. Only wish frame was a bit lighter. For anyone buying a new frame I would shy away from anything under 75 degrees. The steep seat tube combined with slack head tube works well even when climbing steeps.
    Using 76 degrees STA as cutoff, list shortens to:

    Tallboy
    Ripley
    Spur (actually 76.2 med / 75.9 large)
    Following
    Rift Zone
    Kokopelli Racing

    "Curb drops to flat, or curb drops to transition? There's a BIG difference there." Qfactor03

  49. #49
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    That spur is looking so good!!!

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimphatty View Post
    That spur is looking so good!!!
    I like the way the Spur looks as well - kinda like an Izzo.

    Spur has a flex-stay instead of a pivot, so isn't it basically a single-pivot design?
    Kokopelli Racing

    "Curb drops to flat, or curb drops to transition? There's a BIG difference there." Qfactor03

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by yangpei View Post
    Using 76 degrees STA as cutoff, list shortens to:

    Tallboy
    Ripley
    Spur (actually 76.2 med / 75.9 large)
    Following
    Rift Zone
    Probably the group that runs the most sag and pedals the worst, if I had to guess.

    Ripley maybe being the lone outlier.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbrockenchain View Post
    The geo number I like the most from my Tallboy 4 is the steep seat tube angle. Only wish frame was a bit lighter. For anyone buying a new frame I would shy away from anything under 75 degrees. The steep seat tube combined with slack head tube works well even when climbing steeps.
    What are You talking about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by itsky View Post
    What are You talking about?
    Exactly what Iím talking about. Coming from a 74 STA to a 76.4 I personally wouldnít choose a bike with les than 75. That is me... pretty simple. I feel the slacker front ends work very well with the STA. The pedaling position feels very good. Maybe you feel different but obviously the industry is moving that way. And maybe Iím just drinking the coolaid!!
    PS-Trail 429 way outdated.. I would take a Switchblade instead...same weight and more capable (thatís what a Pivot would also say..if honest)

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    Quote Originally Posted by yangpei View Post
    Using 76 degrees STA as cutoff, list shortens to:

    Tallboy
    Ripley
    Spur (actually 76.2 med / 75.9 large)
    Following
    Rift Zone
    Actually what I said was 75 and under so that would put more bikes on your list

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbrockenchain View Post
    Exactly what Iím talking about. Coming from a 74 STA to a 76.4 I personally wouldnít choose a bike with les than 75. That is me... pretty simple. I feel the slacker front ends work very well with the STA. The pedaling position feels very good. Maybe you feel different but obviously the industry is moving that way. And maybe Iím just drinking the coolaid!!
    PS-Trail 429 way outdated.. I would take a Switchblade instead...same weight and more capable (thatís what a Pivot would also say..if honest)
    Post up a Strava ride where youíre faster, rode longer or did better in a race because your seat tube was 1 degree steeper. Iíll wait.

    Outdated in what respect? Agree there are trends, but that doesnít mean itís better. Iíve only been riding for about 5 years and Iíve see two trends, the first was away from 29 to 27,5, and the second trend was plus size tires. Which of those trends stuck?

    Outside of enduro racing, show me a race being dominated seat angles that steep.

    What about suspension design, why would short travel bike need as steep of seat angles as long travel bike with more sag? Why would a suspension design like dw, which sags less when going up, need as steep of angles?

    If your trails are long up, followed by long decent, then maybe, but if you ride other terrain, itís likely not better.

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    At 55 yrs old yes I am setting Strava PRs actually!!! Data recorded for last 9ish years and been mtbing for 36 years. My climbs are long...yesterdayís was an 8 mile climb. Second best time and only 1 minute off PR that was on a Tallboy 1 24 pound during a race. And set PR on the afterwards 4 mile descent. Again these are MY observations. I never made a blanket statement. If you recall I said that I wouldnít buy a bike with less than 75 STA. I never said all bikes with less were bad. All bikes are good these days. I ride what I get deals on. Again for me the new geometry makes my bike more efficient on way up (at least my perception and times are consistent) and way more capable on way down.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbrockenchain View Post
    At 55 yrs old yes I am setting Strava PRs actually!!! Data recorded for last 9ish years and been mtbing for 36 years. My climbs are long...yesterdayís was an 8 mile climb. Second best time and only 1 minute off PR that was on a Tallboy 1 24 pound during a race. And set PR on the afterwards 4 mile descent. Again these are MY observations. I never made a blanket statement. If you recall I said that I wouldnít buy a bike with less than 75 STA. I never said all bikes with less were bad. All bikes are good these days. I ride what I get deals on. Again for me the new geometry makes my bike more efficient on way up (at least my perception and times are consistent) and way more capable on way down.
    Good to hear.

    I've also been biking since early 90's (with NORBA 71 deg HA / 72 deg SA bikes w/ 135mm stems) and have seen lots of trends / changes over the years. I'm currently on a 4 year old Warden Carbon and love it. I have yet to try one of the newer 76+ degrees SA bikes, but I ordered an Evil Following v3 for upcoming trail bike build.
    Kokopelli Racing

    "Curb drops to flat, or curb drops to transition? There's a BIG difference there." Qfactor03

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    New Progressive Short Travel 29er Trail Bike Help..

    Quote Originally Posted by itsky View Post
    Post up a Strava ride where youíre faster, rode longer or did better in a race because your seat tube was 1 degree steeper. Iíll wait.

    Outdated in what respect? Agree there are trends, but that doesnít mean itís better. Iíve only been riding for about 5 years and Iíve see two trends, the first was away from 29 to 27,5, and the second trend was plus size tires. Which of those trends stuck?

    Outside of enduro racing, show me a race being dominated seat angles that steep.

    What about suspension design, why would short travel bike need as steep of seat angles as long travel bike with more sag? Why would a suspension design like dw, which sags less when going up, need as steep of angles?

    If your trails are long up, followed by long decent, then maybe, but if you ride other terrain, itís likely not better.
    Full disclosure, I own a bike on this list.

    In theory, people could be accidentally fixing their poor bike fit and getting their seat in the right correlation with the cranks and making more power.

    Buy a new bike, or move your seats forward and up.


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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbrockenchain View Post
    Exactly what Iím talking about. Coming from a 74 STA to a 76.4 I personally wouldnít choose a bike with les than 75.
    you're telling me you slam your saddle as far forward as it will go on a >75 STA bike?

    the difference between 74 and 76 is what like 19mm in fore aft position?

    not to mention these are mostly all effective STA numbers, meaning they're measured at arbitrary points that may or may not be comparable across brands.

    im on a 76 ESTA bike and slam my saddle as far BACK as i can and its STILL too far forward...and i run my road bikes REALLY far forward at that lol. Kudos to Pivot for thinking for themselves and not following the masses just because.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    you're telling me you slam your saddle as far forward as it will go on a >75 STA bike?

    the difference between 74 and 76 is what like 19mm in fore aft position?.
    Honestly I agree and doubted all these geometry changes...until I tried it!! I really do feel a difference. I also thought dropper posts were way overrated...eating my words every day I ride my bike with dropper!!

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    you're telling me you slam your saddle as far forward as it will go on a >75 STA bike?

    I do. Both my full suspension bikes have a 76į STA and the saddles are slid forward to the limit line.

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    FYI, the STA on my list are effective values, so there is a possibility of slamming the seat forwards to gain some steepness.

    Will update with the Trail 429 later.

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    Here ya go.

    New Progressive Short Travel 29er Trail Bike Help..-bikecompare4.jpg

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    Would be nice to have seatube offset and/or esta measured height. Would be hard to track down though i guess.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by giant8900 View Post
    FYI, the STA on my list are effective values, so there is a possibility of slamming the seat forwards to gain some steepness.
    For sure. There are people talking like the saddle is fixed on the seatpost. Matt mentioned that the difference between a 74 and 76 STA is like under 2cm. If you're saddle rails have the room...you can push it forward.

    Since STA is THE new geo point for people to obsess over...the STA should be measured at sag point. The ESTA can be very different on a 120 and 160mm frame. A hardtail with a 76 STA is in that position permanently.

    Saddle setback is typically determined by femur length and shoe size/cleat position. I have relatively short femurs...so most STAs from 73 to 76 will work for me by moving the saddle back and forth. Saddle position should also be a separate adjustment to the reach/hand. I'm willing to be that some people with super long bikes are using the saddle to try and adjust their body so that they can reach the handlebar when seated.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    For sure. There are people talking like the saddle is fixed on the seatpost. Matt mentioned that the difference between a 74 and 76 STA is like under 2cm. If you're saddle rails have the room...you can push it forward.

    Since STA is THE new geo point for people to obsess over...the STA should be measured at sag point. The ESTA can be very different on a 120 and 160mm frame. A hardtail with a 76 STA is in that position permanently.

    Saddle setback is typically determined by femur length and shoe size/cleat position. I have relatively short femurs...so most STAs from 73 to 76 will work for me by moving the saddle back and forth. Saddle position should also be a separate adjustment to the reach/hand. I'm willing to be that some people with super long bikes are using the saddle to try and adjust their body so that they can reach the handlebar when seated.
    Another thing to consider is how wide some people's "sit bones" are compared to others.

    I see some people sitting so far back on the saddle that I can't see any of it. Regularly.

    Personally, there's no way I could ever sit that far back on a saddle. It would be cutting the circulation off in my inner thighs and chafing the hell out of me.
    Death from Below.

  67. #67
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    If it were me I'd pick the Tallboy 4, Santa Cruz is just solid, with a lifetime warranty, no gotchas and you'll find a lot of support for it in parts. The v4 is solidly trail-oriented and should serve you well for many years. I own a v3 CC and have converted it to a race bike, which works for me.

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    i've discovered SMP saddles, and you tend to sit farther back on them than other saddles. i now can run the saddle in the middle of the rails rather than jamming a specialized saddle all the way back lol.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Another thing to consider is how wide some people's "sit bones" are compared to others.
    Yup, I'm 6'3" and my sit bones measure 11.5cm, fairly narrow. I ride Medium MTB saddles (130-135mm).
    Rigid SS 29er
    SS 29+
    Fat Lefty
    SS cyclocross
    Full Sus 29er (Yuck)

    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    For sure. There are people talking like the saddle is fixed on the seatpost. Matt mentioned that the difference between a 74 and 76 STA is like under 2cm. If you're saddle rails have the room...you can push it forward.

    Since STA is THE new geo point for people to obsess over...the STA should be measured at sag point. The ESTA can be very different on a 120 and 160mm frame. A hardtail with a 76 STA is in that position permanently.
    So much this. The number of comparisons I read that compare bikes with 10mm different travel and then claim 0.5 degrees in esta is better on the longer travel bike. Drives me nuts.

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