New Kid on the Block...Grove Two X frame- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    New Kid on the Block...Grove Two X frame

    Hey folks,

    Those who have been around the block a few times will remember Grove Innovations, the Penn. custom shop that was responsible for numerous advances in the mountain bike scene during the 80's and 90's.

    Bill Grove, who led the supremely talented group, brought many creative products to the market, including the first Bear Trap pedal, first integrated two piece crank design, one piece bar/stem combos and a number of mountain frame designs that pushed the envelope of accepted standards.

    One of the most popular of these was the X frame, a design that utilized a central spine tube rather than a traditional double diamond. MBA tested the frame, raving that it railed on singletrack and climbed like a helium balloon. The popularity of the frame even garnered it a place in the all time greatest mountain bikes voting poll BITD.

    Grove stepped away from the bike biz for almost a decade, but itching to play again he's back if fine style!

    Here is the latest offering from Bill's new company, Grove Two; a full on custom Titanium X frame 29er. This classic design received and overhaul with a lot of fine details that speak to Bill's maturity as a builder with over 30 years experience.

    The bike oozes with handmade touches. Some of the highlights include hand machined 6/4 Rohloff disc dropouts, internal cable routing from headtube to the left scallopped seat stay, bi-ovalized 6/4 main spine tube, custom eccentric that is 1/3 smaller than standard, precision bored oversized headtube and sexy 1.0" s-bend stays.

    Throw on a mix of primo parts...

    Phil Wood, White Industries, Magura, Rohloff, and custom "Love Handle" bars

    and it makes for one hot ride.

    Bill will be building more of these on a limited basis...ie, he still has a family life that he would like to keep, so quantity and delivery will be on his timeline.

    This beauty is going to live with Mikey in Ohio, a hard core cross country rider with lungs to spare. If you are on the trails around Mohican or the Knob, make sure you stop him to check it out.

    Enjoy the pics...

    rody
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
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    omg don't let shiggy see that
    lol rofl lmao
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  3. #3
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    cool, but not cool

    That bike looks really well made and it is an interesting design. And despite the potential for picking up a serious case of giardia from the bottle position, it looks like it might be fun to ride.

    But like a fat chick, you may not want to be seen on it....with those Wal-Mart/Pacific graphics and paint scheme.

    Am I the only one that is thinking this?
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    Yep, the decals were a error...everyone involved were disapointed , but due to time constraints they stayed.

    The frame is scheduled for a gratis repaint with correct decals in the near future.

    r

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    Good job!

    NICE!

    Thank You.. Thank You.. Thank You..

    Brings me back to the days of the Coburn races where Grove bikes were everywhere......

    Best of luck and Yes....... I want one or two...........laughing.

  6. #6
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    :thumbsup:

    OH SNAP!

    I didnt get a chance to see it untill late last nite and i was too tired to notice the details. Mikey, I should have to say that you are one LUCKY camper to be sporting the first TI X 29er.

    fastmtnbiker33w - the decals were considered an error, yes. They were supposed to look rather different than they do now. But might I ask what the problem is with adding some color to this so far, dull, bicycle market? Lately, It seems that everything has turned to forest brown or leaf green. And rather un-appealing to me. Besides that, it was the buyers choice on the paint


    Looks great Rody... Mikey, ride it hard!

  7. #7

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    Does anybody else see the (lack of) clearance between the tire and seat tube?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssmike
    Does anybody else see the (lack of) clearance between the tire and seat tube?
    Yes, it is rather tight. But it still fits without any rubbing issues.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Grove
    Yes, it is rather tight. But it still fits without any rubbing issues.
    Sure, no rubbing issues, but what happens when it is ridden through a gravel patch or a muddy section? Tire runout at speed is also (while not significant) something to consider. WTB accounts for 2mm runout. The combination of riding at speed through a patch of gravel might be enough to get some rocks jammed between the seat tube and tire.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastmtnbiker33w
    That bike looks really well made and it is an interesting design. And despite the potential for picking up a serious case of giardia from the bottle position, it looks like it might be fun to ride.

    But like a fat chick, you may not want to be seen on it....with those Wal-Mart/Pacific graphics and paint scheme.

    Am I the only one that is thinking this?
    The graphics are a bit cheesy, but I like the paint job with the fade into silver matching the silver of the fork, stem and bars.
    Wanted: broken Titec 2 bolt seatpost, any size

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by grawbass
    The graphics are a bit cheesy, but I like the paint job with the fade into silver matching the silver of the fork, stem and bars.
    the graphics were rushed to get painted up on this frame. They do need some work, it is agreed on that anyhow. My father painted the fork, bars, stem, and rohloff to match the silver on the frame. Everything was painted at the same time..

    Sure, no rubbing issues, but what happens when it is ridden through a gravel patch or a muddy section? Tire runout at speed is also (while not significant) something to consider. WTB accounts for 2mm runout. The combination of riding at speed through a patch of gravel might be enough to get some rocks jammed between the seat tube and tire.
    This is very true. This was the first frame to be built, and Im sure there will be SOME modifications made to make it more user friendly

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Grove
    This is very true. This was the first frame to be built, and Im sure there will be SOME modifications made to make it more user friendly
    Cool - part of the never-ending development process. I like to have at least a finger's clearance. Just as an FYI for development, WTB measures their 2.3 Exi tire at a radius of 376.25mm including 2mm of runout.

  13. #13
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    Bill Grove, who led the supremely talented group, brought many creative products to the market, including the first Bear Trap pedal, first integrated two piece crank design, one piece bar/stem combos and a number of mountain frame designs that pushed the envelope of accepted standards.
    Didnt Tom Ritchey and Jeff Lindsay have a one-piece bar stem combo before Grove? I didnt know Bullseye cranks came after the Grove cranks either.

    Whats the frame weight on this guy?

  14. #14
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    I really like the internal routing.

  15. #15
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    One-piece bar/stems date back WAY before Grove. They were standard on the early "production" mountain bikes from specialized, norco, nishiki, miyata, raleigh and so on (81-82 era) and the Ritchey ones came before that. I also seriously doubt the Grove cranks came before Bullseye cranks. Roger's 4704919 patent was issued in 1987 and filed in 1986.
    I don't post to generate business for myself or make like I'm better than sliced bread

  16. #16
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    A Couple of quick questions - was this built for "nostalgia sake" or are there some inherent benefits of this type of frame design? Is it stiffer? Or lighter than a traditional type frame style?

    The cable routing is very cool!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rody
    Hey folks,

    Those who have been around the block a few times will remember Grove Innovations, the Penn. custom shop that was responsible for numerous advances in the mountain bike scene during the 80's and 90's.

    Bill Grove, who led the supremely talented group, brought many creative products to the market, including the first Bear Trap pedal, first integrated two piece crank design, one piece bar/stem combos and a number of mountain frame designs that pushed the envelope of accepted standards.
    rody

    Hmmmm...I thought Bullseye had the integrated cranks and Hutch BMX was the beartrap. It's been a long time. Meybe my memory fails me

  18. #18
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    Maybe Bill's the new Gary.
    I don't post to generate business for myself or make like I'm better than sliced bread

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMcG
    A Couple of quick questions - was this built for "nostalgia sake" or are there some inherent benefits of this type of frame design? Is it stiffer? Or lighter than a traditional type frame style?

    The cable routing is very cool!
    Today? Nostalgia... because people who didn't own one before will want one now. Same reasoning behind trimble making frames again, in 29er versions. Now I just need to get my Alpinestars Ti Mega converted to a 29er format.
    I don't post to generate business for myself or make like I'm better than sliced bread

  20. #20
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    One of little known facts about Grove is that he began Titron components in the 70's...the maker of the original Bear Traps and the Ti/Mag hubs.

    He was hired at Hutch as the lead designer, bringing with him the bear traps and hubs, then creating many of the now sought after early BMX memorabelia. The two piece design dates to that time as well (late 70's/early 80's), although Bill did not market it with his "Hot Rod" cranks and bb until the mid eighties in the MTB market.

    Grove Innovations actually produced the one piece bars that you saw on Jeff Lindsy's Mountain Goats and some of the early Fat Chance frames. Certainly not the first, but quite prolific and techincally advanced in the ergonomic palm bends and heat treating of the thin gauge chromoly.

    More interesting is Bills track record of designing/producing many popular products for other companies throughout his career.

    Here's a bit of history if you choose to explore... http://www.purplelizard.com/GIintro.htm

    Certainly, DeeEight is right on the account that many who missed out back in the day will be drawn to the design, however...

    the advantage of the X frame is that the main spine tube gives excellent stand over height, handlebar swing over and fork crown clearance, a supple in saddle ride due to the extended seat tube compliance, and allows for a very tight / strong rear triangle for maximum energy transfer...much more than nostalgia.

    Did not weigh the frame only, but the entire bike came in at 29 on the nose.

    cheers,

    rody

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    actually i believe bill had the beartraps and gave the design to hutch, hutch changed the spikes(made them less pointy) and made the internal X(not sure on correct name) stronger/bigger/more bulky (AIG or rody correct me if i am indeed wrong)

  22. #22
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    hahahaha nice timing rody, and btw make sure i am around next time your in SC

  23. #23
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    Wow....that's different...

    Good to see another Rohloff build..

    I like the internal cables...sweet ..


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  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by fastmtnbiker33w
    That bike looks really well made and it is an interesting design. And despite the potential for picking up a serious case of giardia from the bottle position, it looks like it might be fun to ride.

    But like a fat chick, you may not want to be seen on it....with those Wal-Mart/Pacific graphics and paint scheme.

    Am I the only one that is thinking this?
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    One-piece bar/stems date back WAY before Grove. They were standard on the early "production" mountain bikes from specialized, norco, nishiki, miyata, raleigh and so on (81-82 era) and the Ritchey ones came before that. I also seriously doubt the Grove cranks came before Bullseye cranks. Roger's 4704919 patent was issued in 1987 and filed in 1986.
    I agree DeeEight, notice in my posting I did not say Grove did the first bar stem combo, only that he did it well.

    As for the integrated cranks, these were developed before the Bullseye patent...I'd love to help erase your "serious doubt"...pm if you'd like further details.

    cheers,

    rody

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssmike
    Sure, no rubbing issues, but what happens when it is ridden through a gravel patch or a muddy section? Tire runout at speed is also (while not significant) something to consider. WTB accounts for 2mm runout. The combination of riding at speed through a patch of gravel might be enough to get some rocks jammed between the seat tube and tire.
    It is tight, but the owner could always go with a smaller rear tire. Just about every 29er tire made would give more room than the Exi, other than the Rampage, Nevegal, Weirwolf and Karma 2.2.
    Wanted: broken Titec 2 bolt seatpost, any size

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rody
    the advantage of the X frame is that the main spine tube gives excellent stand over height, handlebar swing over and fork crown clearance, a supple in saddle ride due to the extended seat tube compliance, and allows for a very tight / strong rear triangle for maximum energy transfer...much more than nostalgia.

    What about torsional stiffness of the front end? It seems like the frame might be quite good in this regard, as the one large tube is probably stiffer than two smaller tubes.
    Wanted: broken Titec 2 bolt seatpost, any size

  28. #28
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    Love the internal routing, particularly since it is dedicated to a Rohloff.
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  29. #29
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    I too like the routing.
    My question is : What Brake Rotor is that?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rody

    the advantage of the X frame is that the main spine tube gives excellent stand over height, handlebar swing over and fork crown clearance, a supple in saddle ride due to the extended seat tube compliance, and allows for a very tight / strong rear triangle for maximum energy transfer...much more than nostalgia.

    Did not weigh the frame only, but the entire bike came in at 29 on the nose.

    cheers,

    rody
    Thanks for the explanation behind the design Rody.

  31. #31
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    Lets see the frame with a WW LT.

    Interesting design don't know if I would trust the single top tube on the trails looks like a lot cruiser to me. Sorry thats just my opinion.

    Do like the internal routing for the rohloff though.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rody
    I agree DeeEight, notice in my posting I did not say Grove did the first bar stem combo, only that he did it well.

    As for the integrated cranks, these were developed before the Bullseye patent...I'd love to help erase your "serious doubt"...pm if you'd like further details.

    cheers,

    rody
    When were they introduced? I don't recall seeing or hearing about them until early 1990. GI was a parts sponsor for a pal of mine from about 87 until about 91. 90 was when he first got a set of Hot Rods.
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  33. #33
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    Any chance he's doing a new run of Hot Rods?
    _

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMFT
    I too like the routing.
    My question is : What Brake Rotor is that?
    Rotor is a Magura compatible supplied with the Rohloff hub.

    The hub is an older style (original powder red) that was sourced for this build as the newly released hubs dissapear faster than ice cream on a hot day.

    Hub was stripped and repainted.

    cheers,

    rody

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by IF52
    When were they introduced? I don't recall seeing or hearing about them until early 1990. GI was a parts sponsor for a pal of mine from about 87 until about 91. 90 was when he first got a set of Hot Rods.
    I know that they were part of the first print catalogue in 1988 and had been produced for a few years prior to that marketing piece...I'd have to confirm with Bill to insure an accurate date of release for the mountain bike market.

    rody

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by uphiller
    Any chance he's doing a new run of Hot Rods?
    That is definately in the works, as for a finished timeline???

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by crux
    Interesting design don't know if I would trust the single top tube on the trails looks like a lot cruiser to me. Sorry thats just my opinion.

    .

    Let me put your concerns to rest. I've been riding an original Grove X for over 13 years and I go around 250lbs. There's still a decent amount of these bikes being ridden and ridden hard all over Pennsylvania.The "boom tube" concept works. Grove's bikes were known to be overbuilt and were favored by riders who were hard on their bikes, guys who rode anything and everything hard, basically the "freeriders" before there was such a term for cyclists. Oh, these were mostly ridden without suspension as well.

    As to the graphics, yeah they're not the greatest (being worked on) but Grove bikes were also known for their wild paint jobs, which doubtlessly inspired some of the poorly executed department store graphics we've all come to loath.

    Truly a wealth of useless information.


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  38. #38
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    Great looking rig! The complaints people can come up with around here for new bikes is almost even more interesting. I can only shake my head at some of these little sap suckers.

    They just make it up as they go. It is really amazing.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by grawbass
    It is tight, but the owner could always go with a smaller rear tire. Just about every 29er tire made would give more room than the Exi, other than the Rampage, Nevegal, Weirwolf and Karma 2.2.
    You would have to go with a Klaw or XR 1.8 to gain more than 3-4mm. Most of the "2-inch" plus tires I have measured are about the same height as the Exi.
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  40. #40
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    I'm trying to figure out where all the Boys Who Cried Spam have got to. Maybe they're too busy eating?

    Personally, I think this bike is hawt, esp the bars and cable routing.

    Actually, I want a set of bars. Hook me up with a set.
    No longer member of the bike industry nor society, so don't hassle me.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by WTB-rider
    Let me put your concerns to rest. I've been riding an original Grove X for over 13 years and I go around 250lbs. There's still a decent amount of these bikes being ridden and ridden hard all over Pennsylvania.The "boom tube" concept works. Grove's bikes were known to be overbuilt and were favored by riders who were hard on their bikes, guys who rode anything and everything hard, basically the "freeriders" before there was such a term for cyclists. Oh, these were mostly ridden without suspension as well.

    As to the graphics, yeah they're not the greatest (being worked on) but Grove bikes were also known for their wild paint jobs, which doubtlessly inspired some of the poorly executed department store graphics we've all come to loath.
    I couldn't agree more. I am at times pushing 200lbs and my X has taken some serious NE punishment with no issues.

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    sign me up

    Quote Originally Posted by Rody
    That is definately in the works, as for a finished timeline???
    im in for a set
    looking for 20-21" P team

  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine
    I'm trying to figure out where all the Boys Who Cried Spam have got to.
    Well, in this case Grove is the builder, and you don't see HIM shamelessly bumping this thread into oblivion trying to keep it towards the top page while everyone just shakes their heads and chuckle. So, I doubt it will garner the same attention

  44. #44
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    You're like a broken record. Maybe contribute something one of these days, eh?
    No longer member of the bike industry nor society, so don't hassle me.

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    A broken record huh? I'm not sure you know how to properly use the saying Warwick. A broken record would imply I constantly keep popping up saying the same thing over and over again. I've only ever commented to you one morning well over a month ago or so and left it at that. Outside of that, I spend most of my time contributing to this forum. In this, I didn't even say the same thing, just addressed your concerns as to why people haven't commented to Grove. Seems you are the one not able to let it go, which would be in your good interest from a business perspective.

  46. #46
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    Do you have anything to say about the Grove or don't you?
    No longer member of the bike industry nor society, so don't hassle me.

  47. #47
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    Nice piece of craftmanship

    Defo the ultimate in Tig'ed. For the ultimate in lugged brazed road/track I would try to find it in Japan (Nagasawa ao) ....and when it is on Tig'ed I know one name: Bill Grove

    Melvin
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  48. #48
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    Sweeet!
    Now I got something to put 1 of my sets of Hot Rods into.
    They've been sitting idle for toooo many moons.

  49. #49
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    I'm a fan of steel cranks having owned a set of Syncros Revolutions for quite a few years before they died on my singlespeed doing up a very big hill.
    When I spoke to one of the owners of Syncros many moons ago, he said he loved them too, but were so labour intensive they couldn't make any real money off them.

    I know there's another colleague who's going to be releasing steel cranks soon, but I wonder financially whether you can compete with the Profiles of the world in the current environment. You'd certainly have to come to the table with something pretty innovative.
    No longer member of the bike industry nor society, so don't hassle me.

  50. #50
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    I'm a fan of steel cranks having owned a set of Syncros Revolutions for quite a few years before they died on my singlespeed doing up a very big hill.
    When I spoke to one of the owners of Syncros many moons ago, he said he loved them too, but were so labour intensive they couldn't make any real money off them.

    I know there's another colleague who's going to be releasing steel cranks soon, but I wonder financially whether you can compete with the Profiles of the world in the current environment. You'd certainly have to come to the table with something pretty innovative.
    No longer member of the bike industry nor society, so don't hassle me.

  51. #51
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    On the paint comments: I would use my own imagination, as the nice feature it is custom

    Could think of different shades of brown if I want something warm

    Could think of pearlescent white with Marc Newson inspired graphics, more in line with how iPods ao look like

    Could think of something like this =>


    Stella CSL

    Anyway, possibilities seem pretty much unlimited to me

    Nice touch of the above bike I find it comes with a colour matching suspension fork. It is something we saw on old Goats and FATs and it seems it is making a return lately. Like that.

  52. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine
    Do you have anything to say about the Grove or don't you?
    LOL, I'm sorry Warwick, I did not realize forum members on MTBR are bound to your rules of play. I'll try to remember that next time and not answer YOUR question if it does not meet your list of posting rules.

    Since you asked though, yes. It is a nice bike and I enjoyed the early 26" models in their height. I'd love to throw a leg over one myself to see how it has adapted in the 29" arena.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elevation12,000
    On the paint comments: I would use my own imagination, as the nice feature it is custom

    Could think of different shades of brown if I want something warm

    Could think of pearlescent white with Marc Newson inspired graphics, more in line with how iPods ao look like

    Could think of something like this =>


    Stella CSL

    Anyway, possibilities seem pretty much unlimited to me

    Nice touch of the above bike I find it comes with a colour matching suspension fork. It is something we saw on old Goats and FATs and it seems it is making a return lately. Like that.
    Isn't that car on display at the BMW museum in Greer, SC??

  54. #54
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    Very, very nice. Makes me miss the Hardcore I had back in college. Anyone have a 19" with matching fork and Hothead bar/stem in Wineberry with Silver splatter they want to sell me back? I'd be interested in any 19" Hardcore, though.

    Regarding the "Love Handles" bars, they appear to be half-way in between On-One Mary bars and the Titec H-Bars. Just what I am looking for. How can I get a set?

    Best of luck with the renaissance of Grove. I look forward to seeing more new creations soon. Very few, if any, bike brands have ever lived up to the spirit of my signature than GI.

    Cheers,
    The Kid
    T.K. Malone
    Product Manager
    myStromer AG
    e-Bike accountant by day
    "Me-bike" delinquent by night (and on weekends)

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by thekid
    Regarding the "Love Handles" bars, they appear to be half-way in between On-One Mary bars and the Titec H-Bars. Just what I am looking for. How can I get a set?
    I'll pm info

    cheers,

    rody
    Last edited by Rody; 05-18-2007 at 06:28 PM.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by lubes17319
    Isn't that car on display at the BMW museum in Greer, SC??
    I have no idea were it is on display, but I know it is one of the 1st batch of Bimmer artcars, consisting Calder CSL, Liechtenstein 320, Warholl M1 and this Stella CSL


    Already had the Hard Core, but now also this piece is making its way to me =>





    Vintage Hammerhead combo

  57. #57

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    Here is a nice Hardcore

    Here is a nice Hardcore around the same vintage.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Grove-Innovation...QQcmdZViewItem

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rody
    Bill Grove, who led the supremely talented group, brought many creative products to the market, including the first Bear Trap pedal
    Damn you Bill Grove! ... Now I know who's responsible for all those scars in my shins!

  59. #59
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    That's very green grass. More impressive than the bike!
    Creator Producer: Will of the Sun WoS, Author Platform Pedal Shootout 1M+ MTBR thread

  60. #60
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    Very excited to see Bill back in the game again,I still own a Hardcore frame.the best technical single track bike I've ever had the pleasure to own.looking foreward to seeing his new creations.

  61. #61
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    The X2

    The X2 is awesome.
    Aaron-great JOB! I'm happy to see your learning the business. You dad is the best.
    The bike looks great. The Rohloff and internal cable routing is a great touch. It looks like a super fun machine. I always liked the paint schemes. I love "Screaming Signal Warning Orange" Killer 29er I bet it handles like a dream in Central PA single track.
    A great Wilderness 101 machine too.

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