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  1. #201
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    Well SF, maybe you have a more modern longer travel bike than me that somehow with 150mm of travel doesn't feel super plush, but to me, on my 2013 PP Prime running 130mm R/150mm F, the difference in how it rides on the super chunky stuff compared to my 105mm R/130mm F Phantom, is truly eye opening, so much so I've almost found myself in trouble following others when I haven't been on it in a while and it just starts absorbing everythign without effort, have to remind myself to pay attention and stop just looking ahead at the person infront and smiling Difference is night and day, the Phantom can handle a lot of what the Prime can because of the geo, but you really have to be paying attention and riding it to do so.

    In other words, yes I can and have pedaled my Prime on XC stuff, climbed climbs ahead of others on lighter bikes etc, but compared to it's smaller brethren the Phantom, there is definitely a noticeable difference in ride feel and hence a "downside" to it if you ride a lot of XC with only a bit of stuff to really push it.

    I really do wonder if a lot of people have comprehension issues, FC asked what the downsides were, not if you had trails to make a 150mm travel bike be worth it I've been on the front range, you don't need a 150mm bike to have fun or bomb a lot of the trails, just the right geo and skill. Haven't been back to the FR in over 9 years, so can't honestly say to the trails now lots of years and skill later, but when I visited CB last September, my Phantom performed just fine thanks, kept up just fine with my friends on a HighTower, SB5 and my friend on the SB4.5 did not feel underbike in the least, just like me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    LOL. This is a delusional post. If you're ever in colorado we should go for a ride and I
    think I could open your eyes to long travel bikes and what they're meant for. I assure you it wouldn't be a "lazy" ride and you'll be using all of your concentration.
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Let's be honest. On most Front Range trails, with a couple rare exceptions, if you're using 150mm of travel regularly, you are taking lines way, way different than what most people ride, or you are running 40% sag and blowing through your already reduced available travel.

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    Who says I only ride front range trails? What about Trestle and Keystone? I can use all my travel on Dakota Ridge, Lair O Bear on weekdays, white ranch, hall ranch, heil, most of it on Apex in the gut, bergen peak, a lot of the stuff on the kokopelli side of Fruita like horse thief bench, lunch loops in gunnison, etc. If you don't think you can use your suspension on front range trails I think you aren't riding very fast.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Well SF, maybe you have a more modern longer travel bike than me that somehow with 150mm of travel doesn't feel super plush, but to me, on my 2013 PP Prime running 130mm R/150mm F, the difference in how it rides on the super chunky stuff compared to my 105mm R/130mm F Phantom, is truly eye opening, so much so I've almost found myself in trouble following others when I haven't been on it in a while and it just starts absorbing everythign without effort, have to remind myself to pay attention and stop just looking ahead at the person infront and smiling Difference is night and day, the Phantom can handle a lot of what the Prime can because of the geo, but you really have to be paying attention and riding it to do so.

    In other words, yes I can and have pedaled my Prime on XC stuff, climbed climbs ahead of others on lighter bikes etc, but compared to it's smaller brethren the Phantom, there is definitely a noticeable difference in ride feel and hence a "downside" to it if you ride a lot of XC with only a bit of stuff to really push it.

    I really do wonder if a lot of people have comprehension issues, FC asked what the downsides were, not if you had trails to make a 150mm travel bike be worth it I've been on the front range, you don't need a 150mm bike to have fun or bomb a lot of the trails, just the right geo and skill. Haven't been back to the FR in over 9 years, so can't honestly say to the trails now lots of years and skill later, but when I visited CB last September, my Phantom performed just fine thanks, kept up just fine with my friends on a HighTower, SB5 and my friend on the SB4.5 did not feel underbike in the least, just like me.
    Having owned a Prime (and loved it), I'll tell you that it's not the benchmark for big 29er efficiency. I have a 5.5 now, and it's a lot more sprightly on the XC stuff, although it took me a while to bond with it. My point here is that the 125mm between the Phantom and Prime isn't really a solid basis for saying that longer-travel bikes suck for all-around riding. The 5.5 is a better all-rounder than the Prime was. And the 5.5 isn't the benchmark for descending capability. I've done a couple laps on a Wreckoning, and it was a sweet ride, and another level on the downhill. I'd just never own one, because I know enough people who sell and warranty them.

  4. #204
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    I think LyNx's point is that the ride experience differs between bikes, and a more capable bike will not necessarily be the most fun in all situations.

    For example, I have a trail bike and rigid bike with tiny knobbed 40c tires. The trails closest to my house are really tame. With the rigid bike, I need to pay attention to every little rut and root on the trail. Traction is limited so cornering technique become pretty important, even at slow speeds. With the trail bike, there is so little that requires my attention that it's almost like road riding.

    Sometimes there's more fun to be had by 'under-biking.' If I had a ton of technical trails near me, I probably wouldn't say that, but I need to drive 30-45 minutes to get to any technically challenging trails.

  5. #205
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    Don't get me wrong. I'm not getting rid of my 100mm XC bike. It has its place and it's a ton of fun to ride.

    I understand the point Lynx is making but I'll be the first to admit that I've seen the light and these new 150mm travel bikes are very capable in all types of terrain and really make riding fun.

    I hope FC really comes through on this review and gives us some good insight.

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  6. #206
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    I like cheese.
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  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I like cheese.
    That's cause it is good. Mainly on cheese

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  8. #208
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    Slower, pick your line under biking is fun, you get a sense of pride. But so is a supper chunky downhill not using your breaks...until you run out of travel and get bounced off your line. This is why I'm watching the tread.

  9. #209
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    Yes, but if you could only have one bike, which would it be, the short travel or longer travel you wouldn't use to it's potential most of your riding? This is what I'm getting at, for someone who does more than just suffer the climbs because they want the descent, a bike that is more appropriate for that for me is right. I get more sense of accomplishment and feel good feeling clearing a steep and/or technical climb (the longer the better, brings fitness into play) than I ever have going balls out on some DH. That beig said, I also get almost the same feeling going down a slow, chunky, tech DH on my shorter travel bike or rigid

    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Don't get me wrong. I'm not getting rid of my 100mm XC bike. It has its place and it's a ton of fun to ride.

    I understand the point Lynx is making but I'll be the first to admit that I've seen the light and these new 150mm travel bikes are very capable in all types of terrain and really make riding fun.
    I hope FC really comes through on this review and gives us some good insight.
    Evasive, while I get what you're saying and I know the Prime, especially my pre-production isn't the absolute best for that sort of thing, no matter how "spritely" a big travel bike is on smoother/smaller type trails, it will still eat up any trail chatter and make it like Sid said and feel almost like riding on the road it requires so little attention, hence why recently I have taken to reaching for my rigid Monkey more and more these days. Now if I could only have one bike, it most likely would not be a 150mm travel bike, it would be 130mm<, as I will most always prefer to be under-biked than over-biked - I ride for the accomplishment, not to be the fastest DH no matter what
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Yes, but if you could only have one bike, which would it be, the short travel or longer travel you wouldn't use to it's potential most of your riding? This is what I'm getting at, for someone who does more than just suffer the climbs because they want the descent, a bike that is more appropriate for that for me is right. I get more sense of accomplishment and feel good feeling clearing a steep and/or technical climb (the longer the better, brings fitness into play) than I ever have going balls out on some DH. That beig said, I also get almost the same feeling going down a slow, chunky, tech DH on my shorter travel bike or rigid



    Evasive, while I get what you're saying and I know the Prime, especially my pre-production isn't the absolute best for that sort of thing, no matter how "spritely" a big travel bike is on smoother/smaller type trails, it will still eat up any trail chatter and make it like Sid said and feel almost like riding on the road it requires so little attention, hence why recently I have taken to reaching for my rigid Monkey more and more these days. Now if I could only have one bike, it most likely would not be a 150mm travel bike, it would be 130mm<, as I will most always prefer to be under-biked than over-biked - I ride for the accomplishment, not to be the fastest DH no matter what
    Like I said, my eyes have been opened.

    If I could only have one bike, I'd have the 150mm bike in on. It does EVERYTHING well. I could take it to any terrain and be confident.

    I put nearly 9k miles on my 100mm XC bike. I took it to every type of trail and it did great. I never realized what I was missing. Now I don't think I'll ever get a similar bike again.

    I agree that a 130mm bike could be a great all arounder but with how great the 150mm bikes pedal, I just don't see the point.

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  11. #211
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    There's nothing saying you can't do longer rides on a big bike... My biggest ride on my '17 Enduro had 6000' of gain. Especially if you want to talk fitness and a sense of accomplishment. I was doing long rides on my Enduro to train for a 40 mile xc race that I was doing on my tallboy 3 (that weighs about 6lbs less).

    If I only had one bike it would most definitely be a long travel 29'er. The downs are more fun and as long as you aren't racing the climbs there's no downside. It's a do everything bike. XC rides, trail rides, bike park DH, dirt jumps, a longer travel 29'er will do it all decently or better. IME the longer travel bikes climb tech much better then there xc counter parts as well.

    Edit: Would have been much easier to type "I agree with silent foe" lol

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    There's nothing saying you can't do longer rides on a big bike... My biggest ride on my '17 Enduro had 6000' of gain. Especially if you want to talk fitness and a sense of accomplishment. I was doing long rides on my Enduro to train for a 40 mile xc race that I was doing on my tallboy 3 (that weighs about 6lbs less).

    If I only had one bike it would most definitely be a long travel 29'er. The downs are more fun and as long as you aren't racing the climbs there's no downside. It's a do everything bike. XC rides, trail rides, bike park DH, dirt jumps, a longer travel 29'er will do it all decently or better. IME the longer travel bikes climb tech much better then there xc counter parts as well.

    Edit: Would have been much easier to type "I agree with silent foe" lol
    I'll agree on the tech climbing. I don't live in an area with long downhills. I do however have a metric shit ton of short, punchy, tech climbs. I thought I'd suffer there and I was worried. No problems though. Motors right up and over them.

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  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Yes, but if you could only have one bike, which would it be, the short travel or longer travel you wouldn't use to it's potential most of your riding? This is what I'm getting at, for someone who does more than just suffer the climbs because they want the descent, a bike that is more appropriate for that for me is right. I get more sense of accomplishment and feel good feeling clearing a steep and/or technical climb (the longer the better, brings fitness into play) than I ever have going balls out on some DH. That beig said, I also get almost the same feeling going down a slow, chunky, tech DH on my shorter travel bike or rigid



    Evasive, while I get what you're saying and I know the Prime, especially my pre-production isn't the absolute best for that sort of thing, no matter how "spritely" a big travel bike is on smoother/smaller type trails, it will still eat up any trail chatter and make it like Sid said and feel almost like riding on the road it requires so little attention, hence why recently I have taken to reaching for my rigid Monkey more and more these days. Now if I could only have one bike, it most likely would not be a 150mm travel bike, it would be 130mm<, as I will most always prefer to be under-biked than over-biked - I ride for the accomplishment, not to be the fastest DH no matter what
    A 160mm bike wouldn't be my only bike, if I had to only have one, then yeah the mid travel would be it.

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    A 160mm bike wouldn't be my only bike, if I had to only have one, then yeah the mid travel would be it.
    Depends on what kid of rider you are at heart. Although I XC race, I consider myself a DHer primarily, so that means my one-bike is more gravity orientated, than say someone who is primarily an XC rider.
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  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Depends on what kid of rider you are at heart. Although I XC race, I consider myself a DHer primarily, so that means my one-bike is more gravity orientated, than say someone who is primarily an XC rider.
    My primary bike is a 140mm Riot. It's pretty DH style trail bike, but with a short wheel base. This would be my only bike I'd have if I didn't have the option. Since my main trails are chunky and twisty.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Like I said, my eyes have been opened.

    If I could only have one bike, I'd have the 150mm bike in on. It does EVERYTHING well. I could take it to any terrain and be confident.

    I put nearly 9k miles on my 100mm XC bike. I took it to every type of trail and it did great. I never realized what I was missing. Now I don't think I'll ever get a similar bike again.

    I agree that a 130mm bike could be a great all arounder but with how great the 150mm bikes pedal, I just don't see the point.

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    If we're going to go to extreme like this why not do 300 mm travel bikes! Bigger is not always better.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugerfan777 View Post
    If we're going to go to extreme like this why not do 300 mm travel bikes! Bigger is not always better.
    What? Try to keep the conversation pertinent and on Earth.

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  18. #218
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    LMAO

    Just wanted to post that.
    Biker? I don't even know her.

  19. #219
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    Curious, know you don't want to name the bike, but what does it weigh and cost? No matter how it climbs, it's still going to feel like marshmallow/couch on the eway down on trails without enough "umph" to put it to full use and I don't enjoy that. Flying as fast as possible over all that chunky goodness isn't something for everyone, some enjoy picking their way down, enjoying all that chunk and what it takes to ride it slow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    I'll agree on the tech climbing. I don't live in an area with long downhills. I do however have a metric shit ton of short, punchy, tech climbs. I thought I'd suffer there and I was worried. No problems though. Motors right up and over them.
    Obviously you will NEVER get it, keep enjoying your downs, some of us actually enjoy our ups and put effort into them, but guess trying to get you to understand that is like trying to get Trump to understand ethics. By your theory then I should be fine with my short travel FS out on the road as well, since when I was training hard and helping a friend out I used to regularly do 50-70 mile road rides, with the occasional 100, with good climbing and avg speed of 16-17mph

    Quote Originally Posted by StreetDocotor
    ....silly comment.....Clueless to anyone who doesn't live for the down
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  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Curious, know you don't want to name the bike, but what does it weigh and cost? No matter how it climbs, it's still going to feel like marshmallow/couch on the eway down on trails without enough "umph" to put it to full use and I don't enjoy that. Flying as fast as possible over all that chunky goodness isn't something for everyone, some enjoy picking their way down, enjoying all that chunk and what it takes to ride it slow.


    Obviously you will NEVER get it, keep enjoying your downs, some of us actually enjoy our ups and put effort into them, but guess trying to get you to understand that is like trying to get Trump to understand ethics.
    It weighs in at 31.2lbs in a large, stock with XT pedals. $5,999.

    I'm loving it on the ups. It's the icing on the cake.

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  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugerfan777 View Post
    If we're going to go to extreme like this why not do 300 mm travel bikes! Bigger is not always better.
    Your meds. Did you take them?
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  22. #222
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    How does the hightower lt ride? Super interested here. I tried out a pivot switchblade and didn't really like it. It felt sluggish at everything. I'm 6'4 tall 190lbs. I'm riding '17 top fuel and '17 ibis tranny

  23. #223
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    This is my favorite class of bikes...I love Long Travel 29ers...finally there are plenty of choices.

    Iíd love to see the Trek Session 29 included too, even though it is a downhill bike.

    Can you list the maximum size tires that will fit on each bike?

    For me, if I canít fit a 2.5 in the back, I cross it off my list.

    Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimphatty View Post
    How does the hightower lt ride? Super interested here. I tried out a pivot switchblade and didn't really like it. It felt sluggish at everything. I'm 6'4 tall 190lbs. I'm riding '17 top fuel and '17 ibis tranny
    I'm 6 foot 4 1/2 and 283 pounds. 20 years of bodybuilding didn't help. Doesn't matter if you're fat or it's all muscle. Bike builders don't really build bikes for guys over 200lbs.

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    https://www.singletracks.com/blog/mt...ands-compared/

    Since nearly every trail bike has the same geometry it looks like all of This arguing is just over how the shocks work .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugerfan777 View Post
    I'm 6 foot 4 1/2 and 283 pounds. 20 years of bodybuilding didn't help. Doesn't matter if you're fat or it's all muscle. Bike builders don't really build bikes for guys over 200lbs.
    The bikes can handle it, but probably going to need tuned suspension. Most are set in the 150-175lb range.

  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    The bikes can handle it, but probably going to need tuned suspension. Most are set in the 150-175lb range.
    In which fox is going to make a Tonna money. Kind of sucks to be bigger because it always cost more. Even though I can rip the legs off a small guy.

  28. #228
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    Please, sir, tell us more about how awesome you are.
    Just like a raindrop, I was born to fall.

  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    Please, sir, tell us more about how awesome you are.
    Subscribed! This could get interesting!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugerfan777 View Post
    https://www.singletracks.com/blog/mt...ands-compared/

    Since nearly every trail bike has the same geometry it looks like all of This arguing is just over how the shocks work .
    I would argue almost exactly the opposite.

    I think geometry can have in some situations a far bigger impact on how fast and steep you can go than the amount of squish you've got.

    My XC orientated bike is a large switchblade with the head angle slacked out by 2 degrees and the forks at 160. This transformed the bike for me.

    My angry trail/bike park rig is a mojo G16 running 170 rear and 40s on the front at full travel. It's heavy compared to the pivot and it dumbs down the trail to a huge extent unless it's fast and lumpy BUT it will outclimb the switchblade due to the geometry. I would have built this bike in 29er format if Id been able to to make it more "all day peddle" friendly. I built it as an experiment to see how the extreme end of LLS worked for me and on the whole, it's a game changer.
    I'm looking forward to reading this test as to see what conclusions are drawn.

    I can't believe it's taken so long for the industry to start producing long travel 29ers, the big wheels make them so more versatile than the smaller wheeled bikes of similar travel.

  31. #231
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    I just have thanks for

    FC and his people putting in the time and effort to make a comparison pretty much nobody is doing, yet.

    And modern bikes.

    10 years ago I rode a 6" travel horst-link bike over a variety of terrain and while it certainly wasn't the best climber it never failed me if my legs didn't.

    Last Sept I finally landed the modern replacement, which is a 6" travel 29er of robust nature and modern spec and geometry.

    I've no illusion it's going to last as long (frame wise) as that 26er but at at least it has a 5 yr warranty.

    And, oh, the ride and capability of the bike is dramatically improved. And with my chosen hardware it's basically the same weight.

    The current bike is air sprung but is more easily tuneable for it and i've no complaints about the capability because I'm just not in *that* 10% or 15% of the rider base that can take advantage of the difference between coil and air.

    And my current ride is spot in the essence of this shootout, lacking the ability so sample the other bikes because of where I live now I very much appreciate all opinions / experiences shared by riders - as long as they provide enough information for me to relate to what they're riding the bikes ON.

    I also like cheese. Particularly slightly crispy on the edge stuff, you know, like on pizza or lasagna.

  32. #232
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    ROCKY MOUNTAIN INSTINCT CARBON 90 BC EDITION.

    155/160

    Getting some good word of mouth @ Outerbike...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    Vital does excellent work. I love Geronimo, but climbing it is terrible.
    Assuming he meant the test loop they did which was up Javelina, Mormon, National to Holbert stop at the road, back up the road to National eastbound and then down Geronimo.

  34. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimphatty View Post
    How does the hightower lt ride? Super interested here. I tried out a pivot switchblade and didn't really like it. It felt sluggish at everything. I'm 6'4 tall 190lbs. I'm riding '17 top fuel and '17 ibis tranny
    That is interesting on the Switchblade but I'll take your word for it. I'll give you report after Sunday, going to demo the HTLT in Pisgah. I currently ride a Tallboy LTc with a 150 fork and a 1.5 Works angleset. I still think the LTc is really outstanding but I've had my eyes on the HTLT as well. I'm interested in how different they will feel and if the HTLT will be much more of an improvement.

    Yeti and Evil will be there as well so I'm going to make a point to get on a 5.5 and a Wreckoning to compare.

  35. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugerfan777 View Post
    Since nearly every trail bike has the same geometry it looks like all of This arguing is just over how the shocks work .
    Not true at all, you are missing the fact that suspensions are different and that will give you a different bike: single pivot and dual pivot. For example, the Horst linkages, IMO, feel so pedal boby always! I don't care for the way they rob you of power when climbing and that is why I personally do not like the Enduro 29er. Then you have ABP, VPP, DW Link, and Switch infinity linkages. Further, carbon frame building, some frames feel stiffer than others. Put this together and two bikes with similar geometries will feel different than the other.

  36. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev. 14 View Post
    Not true at all, you are missing the fact that suspensions are different and that will give you a different bike: single pivot and dual pivot. For example, the Horst linkages, IMO, feel so pedal boby always! I don't care for the way they rob you of power when climbing and that is why I personally do not like the Enduro 29er. Then you have ABP, VPP, DW Link, and Switch infinity linkages. Further, carbon frame building, some frames feel stiffer than others. Put this together and two bikes with similar geometries will feel different than the other.
    For me, the biggest issue is the seat tube angles on these longer travel bikes. 4-bar, Horst, etc. all ride similar to mini-link designed bikes if you use the same shock with built in platform.

    I notice a bigger issue with seat tube angles. The Santa Cruz HTLT as an example has slacker angles which are all wrong when you ride other bikes with steeper sta's. You can drink the Santa Cruz KoolAid and Evil Wreckoning all you want but ride a much steeper sta bike and you will see what I mean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GSJ1973 View Post
    For me, the biggest issue is the seat tube angles on these longer travel bikes. 4-bar, Horst, etc. all ride similar to mini-link designed bikes if you use the same shock with built in platform.

    I notice a bigger issue with seat tube angles. The Santa Cruz HTLT as an example has slacker angles which are all wrong when you ride other bikes with steeper sta's. You can drink the Santa Cruz KoolAid and Evil Wreckoning all you want but ride a much steeper sta bike and you will see what I mean.
    While I agree that STA can have an effect on how a bike fits, pedals, and particularly how it climbs steeper pitches while seated. How steep that angle should be is subjective, especially when you take into consideration that many modern bikes don't share actual and effective seat tube angles. Effective STA gets slacker for taller riders or with more seat post extension.

    As for 4 bar, Horst link/FSR, mini-link bikes, etc. all riding similarly... I totally disagree. Suspension characteristics can actually differ pretty noticeably with similar suspension systems simply because pivot locations, linkage lengths, leverage curves, etc. change.


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    Quote Originally Posted by godfather View Post
    While I agree that STA can have an effect on how a bike fits, pedals, and particularly how it climbs steeper pitches while seated. How steep that angle should be is subjective, especially when you take into consideration that many modern bikes don't share actual and effective seat tube angles. Effective STA gets slacker for taller riders or with more seat post extension.

    As for 4 bar, Horst link/FSR, mini-link bikes, etc. all riding similarly... I totally disagree. Suspension characteristics can actually differ pretty noticeably with similar suspension systems simply because pivot locations, linkage lengths, leverage curves, etc. change.


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    I'd definitely agree. I'm a dual short link fan. I can tell the difference between Intense and Santa Cruz VPP. Also the difference between Maestro, Pivot DW link and BMC APS. I have the most experience on these brands but I bet I could do the same on others.

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    Saying all mini link bikes ride the same is like saying all cars drive the same. There are differences in how bikes just in SC's lineup ride, let alone a Spec Horst Link vs VPP. I have owned a lot of different bikes in the last few years and they all feel distinctly different.

    Regarding the seat tube angle, I am a big fan of bikes like the Enduro 29, but the HTLT is a fantastic bike once you put a real shock on it. The OGHT was massively let down by it's stock setup.

  40. #240
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    Hey FC,

    Any update on when the 29er shootout will be posted? Looking forward to seeing the results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GSJ1973 View Post
    For me, the biggest issue is the seat tube angles on these longer travel bikes. 4-bar, Horst, etc. all ride similar to mini-link designed bikes if you use the same shock with built in platform.
    Yeah, that's not even close to true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSJ1973 View Post
    For me, the biggest issue is the seat tube angles on these longer travel bikes. 4-bar, Horst, etc. all ride similar to mini-link designed bikes if you use the same shock with built in platform.

    I notice a bigger issue with seat tube angles. The Santa Cruz HTLT as an example has slacker angles which are all wrong when you ride other bikes with steeper sta's. You can drink the Santa Cruz KoolAid and Evil Wreckoning all you want but ride a much steeper sta bike and you will see what I mean.
    Most mini link bikes don't need a platform, so the shock can donly it's job. The shocks with a platform are pretty much a compromise.

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    moved

  44. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Bike Model tested Rear Travel
    Santa Cruz Hightower LT XX1 Carbon, Reserve Rim 150
    Intense Carbine Factory Build 155
    Evil Wreckoning X01 Eagle 160
    Specialized Enduro 29 Pro 165
    Marin Wolf Ridge Pro 160
    Trek Slash 29 Pro 150
    Norco Range C1 160
    not in house
    Orbea Rallon M-LTD 150
    Niner RIP 9 RDO 4-star Push star 150
    Whyte S-150 Carbon RS 150
    BMC Trailfox 2 150
    NukeProof Mega 290 Pro 150
    Scott Genius Tuned 150
    Kona Process 153 AL/DL 29 153
    Is that the actual travel you measured? Or just listed travel? Would guess the latter, since they all(except Kona) round to 5mm, that seems a bit unlikely?

  45. #245
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    What frame sizes are you testing? Can you list measured reach on the models tested?

  46. #246
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    Im interested to see the results too. This test is something more related to majority of riders and hopefully it will be judge objectively...canít wait...


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  47. #247
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    Any ETA on the test I am looking to get a long travel 29er in the next month or so.

    I am looking at the Enduro, Wreckoning and Hightower LT. So I am very interested in the results

    Thanks
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  48. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by toytech64 View Post
    Any ETA on the test I am looking to get a long travel 29er in the next month or so.

    I am looking at the Enduro, Wreckoning and Hightower LT. So I am very interested in the results

    Thanks
    Yeah me too, about to pull the trigger on the wreakoning, but would love to be able to see the results of this before hand.

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    Would be cool if the Bird Aeris AM9 and the Raaw Madonna would also be in the test.

  50. #250
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    Me to but include the SB 5.5 even though itís not as LT as the rest.
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  51. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardmtnbiker View Post
    Me to but include the SB 5.5 even though itís not as LT as the rest.
    Then it doesn't fit the basic requirements.

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    Perhaps should have gone with intended usage instead of an arbitrary amount of rear wheel travel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Then it doesn't fit the basic requirements.

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    Unfortunately, the Yeti 5.5 will most certainly outperform many of the included contenders at their intended purpose.
    So the bike that many would consider a final contender isn't included in the review. That's the problem.

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  54. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Unfortunately, the Yeti 5.5 will most certainly outperform many of the included contenders at their intended purpose.
    So the bike that many would consider a final contender isn't included in the review. That's the problem.

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    Why do you say that? Based on what? It won't be included in this test according to FC because they set basic test parameters. The bike you like doesn't meet them.

    They could do a category test or they could do a category test based on claimed travel. This has already been addressed in this thread.

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  55. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Why do you say that? Based on what?
    Because he owns one and it's the "my-bike-is-best" syndrome?
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  56. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Why do you say that? Based on what? It won't be included in this test according to FC because they set basic test parameters. The bike you like doesn't meet them.

    They could do a category test or they could do a category test based on claimed travel. This has already been addressed in this thread.

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    I get what youíre saying but my point is when I was in the market for a new ride I was looking at a category of mtn bikes. Not a travel number. Which is why I think it would have been more useful to do a category comparison.

    Anyway, since you asked here is Brineís review of the HT LT. Which was pretty positive and tested with a coil as well as the stock setup. But if you scroll down to the comments someone asks him to compare the HT LT with the SB 5.5 and he said he prefers the SB 5.5, although itís really close. He preferred how the rear suspension of the 5.5 felt. He described it as more active. Which I can agree with having ridden both. Just one reviewerís opinion but Brines is a good rider and just judging from the videos posted earlier to this thread Iíd probably value his opinion more than what I saw in the video.

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  57. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Because he owns one and it's the "my-bike-is-best" syndrome?
    Yeah, I didn't want to say that.

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  58. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by suns_psd View Post
    that's my problem.
    fify
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

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    I currently own the bike that I'm going to ride for the next 2-5 years so I'm not even in the market.

    However if I was shopping I would want to review the top contenders for a certain type of riding. Seems obvious to me. But whatever.

    Yes I do ride a Yeti 5.5 and am always curious how it compares as I like to plan future purchases when I feel the improvement is substantial enough to justify it. It's a great bike but better bikes will be built now and in to the future. Those bikes interest me.

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  60. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duffman1976 View Post
    ...
    Just one reviewerís opinion but Brines is a good rider and just judging from the videos posted earlier to this thread Iíd probably value his opinion more than what I saw in the video.
    Being a good rider isnít what makes Jeff a good reviewer. He also good at noticing differences and nuances AND reporting them in a way that makes sense to the reader. Thatís important. Thatís what youíre likely to miss in a ďbunch of random dudesĒ test, whether or not their riding abilities are more similar/relevant to the average reader.

  61. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    Being a good rider isnít what makes Jeff a good reviewer. He also good at noticing differences and nuances AND reporting them in a way that makes sense to the reader. Thatís important. Thatís what youíre likely to miss in a ďbunch of random dudesĒ test, whether or not their riding abilities are more similar/relevant to the average reader.
    Well said, I wasn't fully awake when I wrote my post. You put it better than me but that is why I tend to put more value in his reviews than the typical "it climbs pretty well and really comes alive on the DHs" type reviews.

  62. #262
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    Subscribed! Francis - My two cents (on what I think you're going after)...

    I really dig the "What's the Downside?" perspective. FYI, what I'm hearing/looking for when you say that is: "Which of these could be the best Quiver-of-One?". So, in that, I'm particularly curious in the comparison of how these monster trucks (which all should downhill well) climb, and are fun/nimble as everyday Trail bikes.

    On a second note: I saw your brief Wreckoning review. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhx1gLudOc4), and you mentioned about putting on the PUSH 11.6, which you said you would get back about. Have you done that, and if so what's your thoughts on that? (Again, I'm curious from the Quiver-of-One perspective.)

    As many here have said - there's really not a lot of these kinds of reviews, so thanks for your work on it. Excited to hear the results.

  63. #263
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    I understand the desire to say "test this bike or that bike as it almost meets the criteria and it fits the same category." I would love to see the 5.5 run with these bikes. I've never ridden one but I just can't get it out of my head. If Yeti would add some reach...game on.

    However, once you add the 5.5 then you have Riot owners saying "but..." And once you start throwing in the 140mm bikes then you have Hightower and Switchblade owners saying "but..." And once you throw in the 135mm bikes you have Primer owners saying "but..." And so on and so forth.

    The more you water a test down the harder it is for the average rider to draw meaningful conclusions. This is especially true in our world today where there are very few "bad" bikes remaining.

    This test will measure performance on the top end of the rear travel spectrum of long travel 29er trail bikes at the testers defined limit of 150mm and above. This should be good!

  64. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by titusquasi View Post
    I understand the desire to say "test this bike or that bike as it almost meets the criteria and it fits the same category." I would love to see the 5.5 run with these bikes. I've never ridden one but I just can't get it out of my head. If Yeti would add some reach...game on.

    However, once you add the 5.5 then you have Riot owners saying "but..." And once you start throwing in the 140mm bikes then you have Hightower and Switchblade owners saying "but..." And once you throw in the 135mm bikes you have Primer owners saying "but..." And so on and so forth.

    The more you water a test down the harder it is for the average rider to draw meaningful conclusions. This is especially true in our world today where there are very few "bad" bikes remaining.

    This test will measure performance on the top end of the rear travel spectrum of long travel 29er trail bikes at the testers defined limit of 150mm and above. This should be good!
    I'm a Riot owner, and am very interested in this test. I honestly want to see bikes that pick up where The Riot leaves off. As good as the bike is, there is a limit to where 5.5 will get you. Sure you can ride one almost anywhere. But you're not going to be able to go as fast an as hard as you could with 160mm

  65. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    But you're not going to be able to go as fast an as hard as you could with 160mm
    Or 150mm!
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  66. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    Being a good rider isnít what makes Jeff a good reviewer. He also good at noticing differences and nuances AND reporting them in a way that makes sense to the reader. Thatís important. Thatís what youíre likely to miss in a ďbunch of random dudesĒ test, whether or not their riding abilities are more similar/relevant to the average reader.
    Which is also irrelevant...what one guy likes or thinks is the best bike (whether he's a weekend warrior or Aaron Gwin) has zero effect on what others will think is a great bike. I have two friends that go to every demo day on the p;net here in San Diego and they both thought the Yeti 5.5 was the least inspiring (i.e. Worst) long travel 29er they've ridden. Doe that mean they are right and this Brines dude is wrong? Not at all, just that everything in personal. I'd hate to be one of this people that lives in areas that had to buy bikes w/o riding them.
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  67. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    Which is also irrelevant...what one guy likes or thinks is the best bike (whether he's a weekend warrior or Aaron Gwin) has zero effect on what others will think is a great bike. I have two friends that go to every demo day on the p;net here in San Diego and they both thought the Yeti 5.5 was the least inspiring (i.e. Worst) long travel 29er they've ridden. Doe that mean they are right and this Brines dude is wrong? Not at all, just that everything in personal. I'd hate to be one of this people that lives in areas that had to buy bikes w/o riding them.
    No, youíre overlooking my point, and missing the most important part of a well-done review: the communication. Itís not irrelevant if the reviewer can identify particular qualities and relate them to the reader. What exactly did they like/dislike, and why? Then the reader can evaluate for themselves. Obviously everyone has differing opinions, but when you understand the reasons for those opinions, you can take take that as input. The best reviews give you enough information to say ďhe didnít like it, but the reasons he didnít like it means itís exactly what I wantĒ (for example).

    Iíve bought my last four bikes on faith, actually. Iíve been happy with all of them, because I knew exactly what I was looking for

  68. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by titusquasi View Post
    If Yeti would add some reach...game on.
    You got that right. I'm only 5'11" on a Large Yeti 5.5, seat is all of the way back, I run a long 60mm stem, bars are rolled forward, and I still need another 1/4" of reach. The bike is too short imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    You got that right. I'm only 5'11" on a Large Yeti 5.5, seat is all of the way back, I run a long 60mm stem, bars are rolled forward, and I still need another 1/4" of reach. The bike is too short imo.
    Seated fit is more of a reflection of top tube length. Which the 5.5 is actually long in. Reach is more of an out of the saddle measurement. So what you are describing doesn't make much sense. You must have a long torso and long arms for someone 5'11" as the Yeti effective top tube length is pretty long because of the seat angle. And again, because of the seat angle, this is why it has a shorter reach than some of the other bikes that have come out recently. Below is a good comparison of TT length vs Reach...

    http://www.transitionbikes.com/PDF/G...ETTvsReach.pdf

  70. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by blcman View Post
    Or 150mm!
    True, but I probably won't sweat 10mm of travel on another bike. It would be too close to what I have now. 20mm and longer would be great for a Second bike.

  71. #271
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    Looking forward to the final results from this "shootout".

    This is the type of bike I'm looking to purchase in the next 12 months. While I have my own ideas of what bikes might work best for me, I'd like to see how they compare to the several bikes you and your crew are testing.

    How soon can we expect an article?
    I get paid to ride shotgun.

  72. #272
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    When will we see some results of this test? I am looking at a new longer travel bike and comparisons are hard to find. There are some nice end of season deals out there and I would like to see more reviews.

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    I had a chance to experience the difference between a 2017 Hightower LT and my Yeti SB6.
    Was riding Pisgah Black Mountain last weekend (a MUST on each riders bucket list!), and my rental was the SC HTLT. Okay equipped, basically the "XE" kit with the Fox Performance 36 fork and DPX2 shock.
    First: nice bike. It is predictable, smooth and fast. Handling those technical sections with those rock drops and roots very well. The 2.4WT tires (Minion DHF and DHRs) are awesome, the extra volume seems right for a 190pounder like me.
    However, where it is really missing the point is on the playfulness. The fun-factor. It feels like driving a large SUV compared to the SB6 being a 911. It really needs to be begged to get some air, whereas the Yeti pops over each feature without even asking. It handles fast rocky sections smoothly, yes, but it also seems to constantly loose speed, kind of seems to play it safe all the time, where the Yeti just gains more speed out of whatever crazy stuff you throw at it.
    Hope that makes sense, Iīm not a bike tech guru.
    In total and only if the HTLT is kind of representing this category of bikes well, my impression is that those long-travel 29ers are perfect "for big days on big mountains" (matching the SC promise), but not so much for "big fun days on big mountains". Or back in the cars analogy: Itīs like those safety-first under-steer Audis, which are perfect for a long roadtrip through, but when driving for the sake of driving, one would prefer any rear-wheel driven BMW or Porsche on a canyon backroad.
    The SC HTLT got its nickname: "the bus" after those 3 days.
    Was fun regardless. Great bike.
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  75. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlhulit View Post
    When will we see some results of this test? I am looking at a new longer travel bike and comparisons are hard to find. There are some nice end of season deals out there and I would like to see more reviews.
    "Time for a little less talk and a lot more action..."
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

  76. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duffman1976 View Post
    I get what youíre saying but my point is when I was in the market for a new ride I was looking at a category of mtn bikes. Not a travel number. Which is why I think it would have been more useful to do a category comparison.

    Anyway, since you asked here is Brineís review of the HT LT. Which was pretty positive and tested with a coil as well as the stock setup. But if you scroll down to the comments someone asks him to compare the HT LT with the SB 5.5 and he said he prefers the SB 5.5, although itís really close. He preferred how the rear suspension of the 5.5 felt. He described it as more active. Which I can agree with having ridden both.
    [/url]
    Yeah I don't know, I personally and most recently spent time on both. I was impressed by the 5.5 traction on steep climbs, as that is one of my peevs, I can't stand a wallowy bike when climbing. I.E., specialized MTB seems to have that bobbing when climbing. Anyway, it was a great descender, very playful and felt confidence inspiring.

    Then I rode the Hightower LT with Reserve wheels. I was expecting a VPP wallow in climbing, and I climbed a steeper section than the Yeti. I thought ok, here we go, lets see how bad the pedal feedback will be on this thing. You know what? It didn't give me any. To me, it climbed just as well as the Yeti 5.5, there was no difference. When it came to down hill sections, the HTLT was a clear better performer and the same section on the 5.5 showed its limits. My verdict between both is they so similar in every way, but the HTLT has more travel. You can't go wrong with either choice.

    Check out this review and these guys buy their own bikes to review, they are not given them or have a tie to the companies so the reviews are unbiased. They compare the HTLT to a few bikes and the 5.5 is one of them. They chose the HTLT over the Yeti as they conclude the HTLT ". . .climbs far better."

    https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/revie...wer-lt-xe-2018

    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    No, youíre overlooking my point, and missing the most important part of a well-done review: the communication. Itís not irrelevant if the reviewer can identify particular qualities and relate them to the reader. What exactly did they like/dislike, and why? Then the reader can evaluate for themselves. Obviously everyone has differing opinions, but when you understand the reasons for those opinions, you can take take that as input.
    You'd like the outdoor gear lab review for this reason.

  77. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    Which is also irrelevant...what one guy likes or thinks is the best bike (whether he's a weekend warrior or Aaron Gwin) has zero effect on what others will think is a great bike. I have two friends that go to every demo day on the p;net here in San Diego and they both thought the Yeti 5.5 was the least inspiring (i.e. Worst) long travel 29er they've ridden. Doe that mean they are right and this Brines dude is wrong? Not at all, just that everything in personal. I'd hate to be one of this people that lives in areas that had to buy bikes w/o riding them.
    Very well said...

    I know I am probably in the minority on these two bikes, but for me, after riding the Hightower LT and the Yeti 5.5, I was not so impressed to say the Yeti was better. Perhaps that was because I was expecting big things from the Yeti. All the hype on the 5.5 perhaps maybe I expected too much. IDK, I do know the HTLT was clearly just as good if not better as that 150 rear took some sketchy downhill rock garden stuff (IMO) so much better than the 5.5. You could tell the 5.5 had its limits when attempting serious techy downhills. The HTLT did as expected and erased some mistakes I made here and there.

    Dane on his Youtube channel trail peak, calls his Hightower LT an enduro race bred machine. He says it is just as playful if not more than other bikes out there. He just came off a YT Jeffsy to a Hightower LT, he says the HTLT blows the Jeffsy away.

    Bottom line, you all need to get on the bikes for yourselves and demo them. Yeah, reviews are cool so you will know better about what you are riding but don't buy a bike based on this thread or any other reviews.

  78. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinnybex View Post
    I just posted my thought on the 2018 Orbea Rallon in the Orbea thread and I'll be very curious how it pans out in your shootout.
    Francis, any word on this bike in your review? It would be interesting to see this Rallon compared to the others.

  79. #279
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    Lots of fun reads here on the HTLT. I'm
    Coming off of a Stumpy carbon 29 and I prefer shorter more playful sleds. I will say that the HTLT XE took me way longer to dial in the suspension to where I wanted it (not that deadish overdamped feel) than any other bike I've owned. However, now that it's dialed this thing rips so hard. I find the better "platform" to make the bike super playful and when things get rowdy she starts to excel. The only thing lost is a bit of small bump compliance from the FSR. Once dialed I rode some nice hot laps comparing the two back to back to back.

    The only other thing I'll note is that the data points on paper really don't tell the story of how a bike will FEEL riding it. Im talking seat angle etc. Especially when the numbers are close. This Hightower outclimbs the stumpy all day errr day and has my body in a much better potion to do so. I'm so in love with this bike currently.

  80. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev. 14 View Post

    Then I rode the Hightower LT with Reserve wheels. I was expecting a VPP wallow in climbing, and I climbed a steeper section than the Yeti. I thought ok, here we go, lets see how bad the pedal feedback will be on this thing. You know what? It didn't give me any. To me, it climbed just as well as the Yeti 5.5, there was no difference. When it came to down hill sections, the HTLT was a clear better performer and the same section on the 5.5 showed its limits. My verdict between both is they so similar in every way, but the HTLT has more travel. You can't go wrong with either choice.

    Check out this review and these guys buy their own bikes to review, they are not given them or have a tie to the companies so the reviews are unbiased. They compare the HTLT to a few bikes and the 5.5 is one of them. They chose the HTLT over the Yeti as they conclude the HTLT ". . .climbs far better."

    https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/revie...wer-lt-xe-2018



    You'd like the outdoor gear lab review for this reason.
    Just read their review. Funny that you mention they review bikes they buy. Seems to me that would make them more biased not less. I get your point however about them not being tied to any bike companies.


    Also, they seemed to have the opposite feelings on the Yeti vs The LT when it comes to the rowdier downhill stuff as this is what they wrote, ď
    Prefer a bit more in the way of straight-lining abilities and a higher plow-factor? The Yeti SB5.5 features similar geometry and travel numbers to the Hightower LT. Where the Hightower LT requires a bit of finesse when things get ultra rough, the SB5.5 mows down roots and rocks comfortably.Ē


    But like you said in the following post, these reviews are no substitute for being able to hop on one and take it for a rip on the trails. The differences between these bikes now is really small and a lot of times comes down to personal preference here or there and the kind of trails you ride as well as your riding style. I was able to ride both and actually waited for the LT to be released before making a decision. The LT while having similar geometry, i just felt like my weight was too forward on the bike with a L and too stretched out on an XL even with a short stem on the XL. When I rode the SB 5.5 felt centered and balanced in the bike from the start. In the end Iíd be happy to own either one.

  81. #281
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    What Iím most interested to see is how the trek slash and the Wreckoning compare. Way back when there was talk of the clash of the titans to see which bike was better for 2016 overall endro champ. Was there any comparison reported between the two? If so can someone point me in that direction? Thanks!

  82. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomor View Post
    What Iím most interested to see is how the trek slash and the Wreckoning compare. Way back when there was talk of the clash of the titans to see which bike was better for 2016 overall endro champ. Was there any comparison reported between the two? If so can someone point me in that direction? Thanks!
    https://youtu.be/JRwbBFrJGng


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    Iíve seen that before for sure, but Iíve been waiting to see Francisís opinion. Especially with the consideration of how the push 11.6 shock effects things, as I havenít heard his feelings on that yet. I live in Santa Cruz and am especially curious about his thoughts about the Wreckoning on local trails around here and the Bay Area. I know I can find this stuff around the Internet, Iím just excited to see what Francis has up his sleeves.

  84. #284
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    I came to the realization on my 5.5 that I can descend anything with no issues, it's the climbs that are tough, I would give up a bit of descending prowess to climb a bit better. Maybe an angleset reducing head angle a bit is in my future?

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  85. #285
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    I think when we really get past the age old "which bike is the absolute KING" mentality, is when things really progress for us as riders. Body type, riding style, local trails, primary riding focus....all things that for an individual play into which bike ultimately suits them the best. Is the rider forced to pick it as their one bike quiver? Or do they have a 120mm bike sitting in their garage as well? I've come to the conclusion that with my specific body type (5-9, longer torso, short short legs) I need to be careful about reading into geometry hype for sure. Most of these bikes are SO killer! Sometimes the perfect match for a rider takes that rider years of making buying mistakes to reach a maturity of really knowing what attributes suit them specifically.
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  86. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    I came to the realization on my 5.5 that I can descend anything with no issues, it's the climbs that are tough, I would give up a bit of descending prowess to climb a bit better. Maybe an angleset reducing head angle a bit is in my future?

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    While back I read an article can't remember the writer, but he suggested getting a bike that helped your weak point. Climbing is the bane of my existence, I'm glad I went with a better climber than descender.
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  87. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuch View Post
    I think when we really get past the age old "which bike is the absolute KING" mentality, is when things really progress for us as riders. Body type, riding style, local trails, primary riding focus....all things that for an individual play into which bike ultimately suits them the best. Is the rider forced to pick it as their one bike quiver? Or do they have a 120mm bike sitting in their garage as well? I've come to the conclusion that with my specific body type (5-9, longer torso, short short legs) I need to be careful about reading into geometry hype for sure. Most of these bikes are SO killer! Sometimes the perfect match for a rider takes that rider years of making buying mistakes to reach a maturity of really knowing what attributes suit them specifically.
    Yeah. That's my issue with claims that reviews boil down to X liked it, Y didn't. If all you're taking from a review is a thumbs up or down, then either you or the reviewer is missing something. I'm experienced enough to know what I want and why I want it, so I can read between the lines of even a half-assed review. But a good one tells me clearly what I want to know. I'm not looking for the same thing everyone else is, so even if a review is a pan, if I can understand why the reviewer didn't like it, it's still relevant.

    I hardly read bike reviews when I'm not in the market, though. When Bike's bible comes out, some years I just glance through to see what they're testing and then recycle the magazine.

  88. #288
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    On a SB4.5 right now. Interested in this since I'm going to either get a longer travel 27.5 or a 29er. The 29ers do get pretty long i(wheelbase) n long-travel form so I'm keeping an open mind. Only thing- has to be an efficient climber to a degree. I'll demo some next year but subscribing....

  89. #289
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    A certain British outfit already has this test underway. Hopefully, mtbr gets going soon before it becomes an also ran.
    Bicycling is politics by other means.

  90. #290
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    I think they've long given up on this when we criticized the ability level of the beginners that were testing these bikes

  91. #291
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    I've always been curious why anyone would criticize the use of beginners or even intermediate riders testing these bikes. Of course that wouldn't be the final word, but I feel like it would be informative to the majority of people who will be ending up dropping the cash for one of these bikes.


    And as far as the other media outlet doing a review of this same group of bikes, they've released their feedback from the first 2 reviews, and then it's been radio silence since.

  92. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomor View Post
    I've always been curious why anyone would criticize the use of beginners or even intermediate riders testing these bikes. Of course that wouldn't be the final word, but I feel like it would be informative to the majority of people who will be ending up dropping the cash for one of these bikes.


    And as far as the other media outlet doing a review of this same group of bikes, they've released their feedback from the first 2 reviews, and then it's been radio silence since.
    Are you kidding me? By definition the word beginner means "a person just starting to learn a skill or take part in an activity."

    You want that trying to sway your purchase of a $6500+ bike? More informative? The only reason I ride a long travel 29'er is to race enduro and ride bike parks. Otherwise I see no purpose. There are plenty of playful short travel 29'ers out there that won't weigh in at 30+ pounds. I'm not interested in any review not done by someone who can actually test the bike. No offense meant either...

    A long travel 29'er ridden appropriately takes an advanced level rider. Think Cat 1 downhiller to really test the bike. They're basically downhill bikes afterall that happen to pedal halfway decently uphill too. If you're a beginner how are you supposed to convey how the bike actually rides to anyone else? Credibility? Unless you're just buying the bike to be a poser (probably 75% of people?) then who cares to even read a review?

    I get long travel 29'ers are the latest fad. A review should not be based on a fad though. If you aren't going to ride it as it was intended why not buy something that you will actually ride more often? Who wants to putz around on a 32lb inefficient (when compared to 120mm travel) bike? It's not very practical and it sounds like it'll be on pink bike "barely used" for 50% off in a couple of months.

  93. #293
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    It sounds like the reason you ride a long travel 29'er is for aggressive enduro racing and for riding bike parks, so it's understandable that you'd only be concerned about someone with that specific background's experience and opinion. I get it and that's totally valid.

    Alternatively, I'm attracted to that type of bike because of the confidence it will inspire on steep routes and rock gardens that I currently lose control on or get stuck on with my current bike.

    I've heard the theory that you should look for a bike to help out with where you lack the most. If you lack the fitness to ride a heavier bike or just prefer not to have to deal with it, and you have total confidence going downhill, a lighter and sportier 120mm seems like a great idea to me.

    However, for someone like me who has no problem with climbing, but has issues keeping control while navigating technical downhill sections, I see the benefit of the long travel 29'er to make riding more enjoyable and totally worth the trade off of having to putz around with such a large bike.

  94. #294
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    While I expect that others have varying needs and opinions on what is and isn't appropriate, I personally have always wanted a more durable trail machine and been willing to trade a little in weight or specific purpose tuning for something that works well in basically any situation .

    My personal optimal bike replacement schedule is 'no closer than 5 years between changes, optimally 7 years, I figure I am an outlier vs most though.

    I know there are people who change bikes as often as socks (it seems) or have a 7 deep quiver (which I don't want), they are welcome to continue and I don't care, much.

    The fact that there are so many very versatile machines out there is wonderful .

    I am also old enough to want people to start with lesser hardware for a number of reasons, but honest enough to say 'why should they' at this point.

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  95. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    But you're not going to be able to go as fast an as hard as you could with 160mm
    Data point. I owned an Enduro 29 and a Wreckoning with 11-6. My 5.5 (with x2 rear) is faster everywhere, especially chunky, steep, and fast. Moab stuff like Burro, smoother stuff in N. Utah too. Got my Burro down time to sub 2:20, far better than when I was on the Wreckoning or Enduro. (but certainly those bikes could do the same, just making the point that the 5.5 is their equal in that terrain).

    Like someone else mentioned, I too would like to see the 5.5 compared - because if another bike in this category is better, I'd upgrade.

  96. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by lycra View Post
    Anecdotal point.
    FIFY

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  97. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    FIFY

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    Let me tell you an anecdote. The strava time DATA over the course of many, many repetitions of the same segments - says the 5.5 went faster than the 160mm rear bikes, countering Cerberus75's claim that 140 - specifically the 5.5 - will not go as fast and hard as 160mm. That includes 20+ whole enchilada runs and 100+ Crest runs between the 3 bikes, as well as PNW, Whistler, Monarch Crest. The point being, the 5.5 is *clearly* in the same category as the other bikes in this lineup. I have no yeti loyalty and in fact am seeking a superior replacement - hence the vote that it is included as comparison.

  98. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by lycra View Post
    Let me tell you an anecdote. The strava time DATA over the course of many, many repetitions of the same segments - says the 5.5 went faster than the 160mm rear bikes, countering Cerberus75's claim that 140 - specifically the 5.5 - will not go as fast and hard as 160mm. That includes 20+ whole enchilada runs and 100+ Crest runs between the 3 bikes, as well as PNW, Whistler, Monarch Crest. The point being, the 5.5 is *clearly* in the same category as the other bikes in this lineup. I have no yeti loyalty and in fact am seeking a superior replacement - hence the vote that it is included as comparison.
    Just curious if you saw incremental gains through all bikes in sequence. Surely some of the gains could reflect an increase in skill/confidence, or knowledge of the terrain. Then again it could be that the 5.5 would still remain the fastest for you even if you revisited the other bikes. Itís also possible that the 5.5 just has the right mix of geo, travel, and suspension performance to suit your riding style.


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  99. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by lycra View Post
    Let me tell you an anecdote. The strava time DATA over the course of many, many repetitions of the same segments - says the 5.5 went faster than the 160mm rear bikes, countering Cerberus75's claim that 140 - specifically the 5.5 - will not go as fast and hard as 160mm. That includes 20+ whole enchilada runs and 100+ Crest runs between the 3 bikes, as well as PNW, Whistler, Monarch Crest. The point being, the 5.5 is *clearly* in the same category as the other bikes in this lineup. I have no yeti loyalty and in fact am seeking a superior replacement - hence the vote that it is included as comparison.
    Don't miss quote me. I was stating that 5.5" or 140mm has its limits. I responded that I'm in the group of people that have a bike that can handle quite a bit. Can handle better than others bikes in its travel range. But I understand that 140mm has its limits, if it didn't there wouldn't be a need for more travel.

  100. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by godfather View Post
    Just curious if you saw incremental gains through all bikes in sequence. Surely some of the gains could reflect an increase in skill/confidence, or knowledge of the terrain. Then again it could be that the 5.5 would still remain the fastest for you even if you revisited the other bikes. Itís also possible that the 5.5 just has the right mix of geo, travel, and suspension performance to suit your riding style.
    Certainly familiarity factors in a bit, but fitness was highest last year with the Wreckoning (slowest times), and I was 2nd fastest on most segments with the E29, which I owned three years ago. Certainly there are outliers, but the reason I mention frequency of the repeats on the segments is because it gives me confidence that my experience between the 3 bikes is an accurate representation of the relative quickness of the 3 for me.

    Most definitely true on your last point, the 5.5 just works better for me than the others - but that is going to be the case for any reviewer as well. There is no question the differences between all these bikes is trivial, they're all fast and incredible and the 'best' is purely subjective. I'd love to have the opportunity to give the same effort on all 3 back to back - but I can't, so I was hoping to read about someone else doing it in a review! My whole point is that the 5.5c should be on this list - purely for selfish reasons, because I want to read/watch someone else opine on how it compares to the Rallon/Sentinel/etc. I simply agree with others that the bike is in the long travel 29er category.

    I (or anyone) looking at long travel 29ers is going to be looking at the 5.5 alongside the HTLT (FFS the geo is identical between the 2 and they ship with identical total travel - 140+160 and 150+150).

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