Jet 9 vs pivot mach429 vs ventana el ray- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Jet 9 vs pivot mach429 vs ventana el ray

    Help!

    Have been riding a pivot Mach 4 26" for a while, and want to do the 29er again. Had an el comandante a year or so ago and really liked it. However, I love the dw link and the stiffness, no bob etc of the pivot design.

    I know many people love the el Ray, however, I am perhaps a little concerned after riding a dw linked 2009 technology bike, that going back to the simple suspension design of the ventana may be a 'backwards step'??

    Has anyone ridden both a pivot Mach 429 AND a Ventana El Ray? I would really love a comparison if possible. Also, has anyone ridden either one of these and a jet 9?

    I guess I am down to these three, just need to make my mind up...
    Thanks guys

  2. #2
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    In my experience, so far, no 29er pedals as well as the P429. The weight of the frame is the only thing that would hold me back, but I have seen them built up sub-23# (one even under 22#). if you are concerned with weight, but have the budget and like the DW-Link, the P429 is awesome.

  3. #3
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    Hmm, the spam report button appears to be broken.

    How do you get a 429 to be sub 22#? That seems almost impossible! I think bikes like the Spec Epic CF decked out with the lightest stuff are just 21#.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh
    Hmm, the spam report button appears to be broken.

    How do you get a 429 to be sub 22#? That seems almost impossible! I think bikes like the Spec Epic CF decked out with the lightest stuff are just 21#.
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=594955
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  5. #5
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    Dr. Don has the 429 and the El Rey, and likes both. Maybe shoot him a PM for more insight. I agree that the 429 pedals incredibly well. I have owned two Ventanas but prefer the DWL designs and some of the multi-link designs now. I have to climb during a large percentage of my rides and they just climb a lot better. I hear that the EL Rey pedals better than most other Ventanas, especially when PUSH-tuned. Ask FoShizzle what he thinks. My X-5 and Salty did not pedal very well, though they were stiff and well built. They bobbed and sagged deep into their travel on steep climbs unless I ran them firm- too firm. I don't like low single pivots for my type of riding.

  6. #6
    craigsj
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh
    How do you get a 429 to be sub 22#? That seems almost impossible!
    Of the three frames in question, it appears that the M429 weighs about a pound more than the other two. None are weight weenie choices.

    I have a Jet that weighs around 25 pounds. It has a Lefty, carbon rims and a single ring drivetrain. I could see taking another pound off of it, but to get it below 22 would require compromises and specific tires. The M429 is a pound worse than that. How important that is depends on you.

  7. #7
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    Who Would Have Thunk It?

    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh
    Hmm, the spam report button appears to be broken.

    How do you get a 429 to be sub 22#? That seems almost impossible! I think bikes like the Spec Epic CF decked out with the lightest stuff are just 21#.
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...90259#poststop

  8. #8
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    I would add the Lenz Leviathan to the list it is a 4" travel bike that can be built supah-lite.

  9. #9
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    I had an 08' Sultan TNT which has a fairly similar rear end to the El Ray (I don't want to oversimplify as they are not identical but both pivot on the seatstay and do well with a strong shock platform when climbing) . I absolutely loved the Sultan it handled well could be built up fairly light climbed well (while seated and propedal on) and built very well. I am over the 200lb mark and ended up installing a pushed RP-3 with a small volume air can to get a bit more out of the rear suspension- this helped dramatically while riding XC and climbs but took some of the plushness away but for what I ride it was a much improved ride-

    I had an opportunity to purchase a lightly used Mach 429 and took it- I was worried as I thought I would regret selling my Sultan. It was love at first ride, sure it was a bit heavier,(though when you consider the headset, BB, Front D are all integrated it starts to even things out a bit) I could not believe how well it climbed- I could get right off of my rigid SS, hop on the 429 and pedal how ever I wanted with very little unwanted feedback/bobbing. Instead of being forced to sit and spin a little gear I could crest a hill by getting out of the saddle and standing on the pedals, it sounds silly but out of all the past full sussers I have had it always felt like a compromise- and the novelty of that super plush feeling gets old -

    While the 429 might not be the right bike for every rider or application I think the super stiff backend, top of the heap pedaling performance, and somewhat long top tube create an excellent xc/trail bike - I ride very few long ups or downs just a constant flow of both so lockouts and flipping switches never really make sense to me for where and how I like to ride.

    I have not ridden the new Jet but it seems like a great option for some - at over 200 lbs it just is not at the top of my list- though the new version is more promising than the older version-

    Just my 2 cents-
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx
    Nice... don't think I could get away with that light of a build, since I'm a clyde, but I guess I could probably get down to 25-28# pretty easily, then. Not that it matters that much to me, since the engine needs to be trimmed first!

    I'm considering a 429 with a Lefty, too, as my next bike.

  11. #11
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    I previously owned an El Capitain (1st gen, basically the same geometry as the current El Rey). I currently have a DW-link Sultan and one of the new Jet9s. Suspension-wise the DW link and CVA pedals much better than the Ventana design. Bump absorption / plushness is about the same between Sultan & El Rey The Jet rides slightly rougher from the combination of less travel & a more XC oriented shock tuning but is still very smooth.

    For my XC-ish trails I would be hard pressed to go back to the Ventana design after experiencing the DW and CVA designs.

    I loved my El Cap - Ventana is 2nd to none in fit, finish, and frame stiffness but in the end I preferred the pedaling of the other designs.

    Other than suspension, the Sultan and El Cap / El Rey are fairly similar with a nice stable feel. The Jet is a little quicker with a racier feel.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Jet 9 vs pivot mach429 vs ventana el ray-2010_jet_1.jpg  


  12. #12
    craigsj
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    Quote Originally Posted by knottshore
    I have not ridden the new Jet but it seems like a great option for some - at over 200 lbs it just is not at the top of my list- though the new version is more promising than the older version-
    I don't think 200+ pounds is a reason not to consider the Jet.

  13. #13
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    I've had both. The Mach429 excels as an XC bike, with the pedaling efficiency of the suspension design. Handles small bumps very well. It has a low BB, which makes it handle technical terrain very well, but you pay with more pedal strikes.

    The El Rey wasn't as efficient as an XC bike, and wasn't as plush if setup with a platform shock. I could definitely feel the higher CG in the El Rey compared with the 429. I did take the El Rey to Moab 2 summers in a row and it did great out there, though.

    Really comes down to what you want to do with it, IMO.
    Pivot Mach429

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    I don't think 200+ pounds is a reason not to consider the Jet.
    I'm 160 lbs and I could feel my old jet rear end, maybe the linkage, twisting on the rough stuff. I assume the new Jet would be better though.

    But I also didn't like how it handled with the fork set to 100mm as much as I like my pivot. BB was too high, headtube too slack.

    Yes, I know the Jet is setup to run 80mm up front but who wants that? Behind the times, get with it niner.

    With my pivot I can just pedal and bash into and over rough stuff.

    Like others said about weight, you have to factor in the BB and integrated HS. Still might be a hair heavier then a Jet but you won't feel it.

    My pivot 429 is at 25.6 lbs with 700 gram tires and cheap-ish ztr wheels.

    My Jet was still a great bike and i'm sure the new ones are even better but I didn't care to test the new jet once I got my pivot.

  15. #15
    craigsj
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortechcoupe
    My pivot 429 is at 25.6 lbs with 700 gram tires and cheap-ish ztr wheels.
    What is your bare frame weight? I'm finding these Pivot build reports to be at odds with the claimed frame weights and I have a hard time believing that 22 pound build, frankly. I have read that the bare frame weight of a M429 is in the high 7 pound range. My Large Jet was 6.4. If a Pivot build comes in at 25.5, an equivalent Jet build would be 24.5. If anyone really cared they probably wouldn't choose either frame, but full build weights don't make up for the heavier weight of a 429 frame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vortechcoupe
    I'm 160 lbs and I could feel my old jet rear end, maybe the linkage, twisting on the rough stuff. I assume the new Jet would be better though.
    It really doesn't matter how a recalled and discontinued frame performed. It is not what anyone will purchase now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vortechcoupe
    But I also didn't like how it handled with the fork set to 100mm as much as I like my pivot. BB was too high, headtube too slack.
    A Jet with a 100mm fork will have a head tube angle very similar to a Mach 429 and a BB height within 5 or 10mm or Pivot's published spec. This doesn't seem like a very objective opinion.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    I'm finding these Pivot build reports to be at odds with the claimed frame weights and I have a hard time believing that 22 pound build, frankly.
    Ubermach is a friend of mine and I can GUARANTEE that weight is correct, as I was the one that took the photo!

    Yes, it is correct, yes I am coming off a Mach 4, yes I can build a 9.99kg Mach 429... but unlike Ubermach, I dont have unlimited $$$$$ at the moment! Sorry mate.

    Yes I have ridden it, and yes it is bloody fast. However, I am thinking of getting something different from my riding partner and as my current build is a Pivot, I'd like to try something different. The Mach 4 is an amazing machine though.

    At this stage, I am leaning towards the Jet 9 rather than the El Ray. I weigh about 155lb and am 5'9.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan123
    Ubermach is a friend of mine and I can GUARANTEE that weight is correct, as I was the one that took the photo!

    Yes, it is correct, yes I am coming off a Mach 4, yes I can build a 9.99kg Mach 429... but unlike Ubermach, I dont have unlimited $$$$$ at the moment! Sorry mate.

    Yes I have ridden it, and yes it is bloody fast. However, I am thinking of getting something different from my riding partner and as my current build is a Pivot, I'd like to try something different. The Mach 4 is an amazing machine though.

    At this stage, I am leaning towards the Jet 9 rather than the El Ray. I weigh about 155lb and am 5'9.
    as long as the scale is not off, as mentioned above apples to apples whoever has the lightest frame will build the lightest bike

  18. #18
    craigsj
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan123
    Ubermach is a friend of mine and I can GUARANTEE that weight is correct, as I was the one that took the photo!
    Assuming the frame weight is 7.7 pounds, which is what I have read, I ran a spreadsheet using my best estimations of his parts weights. To get to his claimed weight he would have had to build his wheelset (plus rear skewer) around 1150 grams. My estimates are off in a few places, I'm sure, but I would say that his weight is unlikely if the weight of the frame is to be believed. Included in my estimates are some weight weenie parts that might not be appropriate for someone 200+ that might shy away from a Jet.

    I think everyone understands that any frame could be built with his parts list. Of the three discussed here, the Pivot would be the heaviest. I think it's interesting that the two common criticisms of the Pivots, weight and low bottom bracket, are being played off here as strengths.

    Having just gone through this exercise with the Jet and Pivot, along with a couple others, I concluded there wasn't a compelling reason to prefer any of the frames based on opinions online. Considering that unbuilt Jets are available for low prices these days due to the recall, I went that direction. If I had to pay full price I'm not sure what I would have done. I have been pleased with the Jet, but the closest I can compare it to is my old Mojo. I believe the Pivot is a lot different than a Mojo, though, and probably in a direction I prefer.

  19. #19
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    Medium

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    Assuming the frame weight is 7.7 pounds, which is what I have read,
    The frame is a medium, probably close to 7#...

  20. #20
    craigsj
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce9er
    The frame is a medium, probably close to 7#...
    Speculation on frame weight is easy but what do they really weigh?

    A medium Jet is "probably close to" 6#...

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    Assuming the frame weight is 7.7 pounds, which is what I have read, I ran a spreadsheet using my best estimations of his parts weights. To get to his claimed weight he would have had to build his wheelset (plus rear skewer) around 1150 grams. My estimates are off in a few places, I'm sure, but I would say that his weight is unlikely if the weight of the frame is to be believed. Included in my estimates are some weight weenie parts that might not be appropriate for someone 200+ that might shy away from a Jet.

    I think everyone understands that any frame could be built with his parts list. Of the three discussed here, the Pivot would be the heaviest. I think it's interesting that the two common criticisms of the Pivots, weight and low bottom bracket, are being played off here as strengths.

    Having just gone through this exercise with the Jet and Pivot, along with a couple others, I concluded there wasn't a compelling reason to prefer any of the frames based on opinions online. Considering that unbuilt Jets are available for low prices these days due to the recall, I went that direction. If I had to pay full price I'm not sure what I would have done. I have been pleased with the Jet, but the closest I can compare it to is my old Mojo. I believe the Pivot is a lot different than a Mojo, though, and probably in a direction I prefer.

    all the specs I've found say a med is 5lbs 7 oz +-

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    Speculation on frame weight is easy but what do they really weigh?

    A medium Jet is "probably close to" 6#...
    Tall boy
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=642882
    5.09 lbs

    Jet9
    http://www.wrenchscience.com/mountai...es/Niner/Jet+9
    5.8 lbs

    mach 429
    http://mountain.bike198.com/pivot-ma...n-bike-review/

    7.7lbs

  23. #23
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    I was being generous...

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    Speculation on frame weight is easy but what do they really weigh?

    A medium Jet is "probably close to" 6#...
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...14136#poststop

  24. #24
    craigsj
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    If 7lb 7oz includes front der, headset, and BB then I would need to subtract 220g from my estimate. That would leave 1370g for the wheels, still an awfully light wheelset. There is 1150g in rims and hubs in those wheels and perhaps 300g worth of spokes and nipples.

    If a M Jet were built just like that Pivot, with weight limited pedals and seatpost, crest rims and 2.0 tires, it would weight 1/2 pound less by my calculations.

  25. #25
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    OK, how much does a BB, FD and headset weigh? Take those out and whats left for the frame comparison weights? Since Pivot includes those in the frames... and all the weights referenced (at 7+ #) include those things, are the 5 or 6 # comparisons apples to oranges unless you add in the appropriate component weights on the other frames.

    The Pivot may still be heavier, I have no idea. But if you say frame A is lighter than frame B (which includes extra parts), your claims aren't very useful.

    So, what does a Pivot weigh without the BB, FD and headset parts?

    Or, alternatively, what does a Jet 9 and TB weight WITH the BB, FD and headset parts installed?

  26. #26
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    Large Frame 429

    The article states Large frame. Also, at the end it shows 7.5#...

    Craig, look at the link again, someone posted about the Jet9...

  27. #27
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    No more speculating!

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    If 7lb 7oz includes front der, headset, and BB then I would need to subtract 220g from my estimate. That would leave 1370g for the wheels, still an awfully light wheelset. There is 1150g in rims and hubs in those wheels and perhaps 300g worth of spokes and nipples.

    If a M Jet were built just like that Pivot, with weight limited pedals and seatpost, crest rims and 2.0 tires, it would weight 1/2 pound less by my calculations.
    Ubermach429 posts his Medium frame weighed 3160g before the lunchbox upgrade. He also states his wheelset weighs 1450g...

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce9er
    The article states Large frame. Also, at the end it shows 7.5#...

    Craig, look at the link again, someone posted about the Jet9...
    I saw that. The Jet mention was not direct experience. I own a large Jet and have weighed it bare. 6.4 pounds. That's definitive for me. For others I'm just another poster. The Jet is not 5.8 pounds as listed by Wrench Science.

    The link you posted regarded a medium Pivot frame.

    Jet frames come with a headset yet it isn't included as part of the frame weight. Apparently only Pivot owners do that. Why they include the FD in the weight I'll never understand. For my purposes the 7.44 weight quoted was handy. I just deleted my BB, headset and FD allowances.

    If weight was a major concern the OP would have listed a Tallboy in his question.

  29. #29
    craigsj
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce9er
    Ubermach429 posts his Medium frame weighed 3160g before the lunchbox upgrade. He also states his wheelset weighs 1450g...
    Well that would certainly do it, but I wonder how he got a frame that weighs a 1/2 pound less than others report. The link you provided showed ~220g more than that.

    His wheelset weight sounds about right. Does the lunchbox reduce weight? It looks like a cosmetic kit to me.

  30. #30
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    tiny differences dont change the fact that the 429 is the heaviest frame , so whatever weight you end up with on a 429 could be lessened with any other lighter frame.

  31. #31
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    The Land of Oz

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    I saw that. The Jet mention was not direct experience. I own a large Jet and have weighed it bare. 6.4 pounds. That's definitive for me. For others I'm just another poster. The Jet is not 5.8 pounds as listed by Wrench Science.

    The link you posted regarded a medium Pivot frame.

    Jet frames come with a headset yet it isn't included as part of the frame weight. Apparently only Pivot owners do that. Why they include the FD in the weight I'll never understand. For my purposes the 7.44 weight quoted was handy. I just deleted my BB, headset and FD allowances.

    If weight was a major concern the OP would have listed a Tallboy in his question.
    +1 Tallboy

    I think Knottshore added the FD just to get a better comparison. In general, direct mount FDs weigh less (so you save weight on a component vs. the frame).

    Can't say for sure, but from what I've read & heard, costs, distributors and availability are different down under. Some bikes we get on the cheap here in the states cost more there, and vice versa.

    Bike weight is an issue for me. That is why a 21# Tallboy & 21.5# Carbon Epic 29er are my next purchases. Even though a 22# Pivot sounds nice, by my calcs, that is probably the lowest weight it would go for me to feel comfortable to ride it. I can still squeeze more weight out of the Tallboy & CE29er if desired...

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh
    Nice... don't think I could get away with that light of a build, since I'm a clyde, but I guess I could probably get down to 25-28# pretty easily, then. Not that it matters that much to me, since the engine needs to be trimmed first!

    I'm considering a 429 with a Lefty, too, as my next bike.
    I'm a clyde and unless you want to rebuild the lefty almost every 2 months I'd stay clear of it. The Lefty is great when it's right and a pain to maintain. IMHO

  33. #33
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    my medium 429 weight is 3.07kg or 6.754 lbs (no bb, fd and headset)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Jet 9 vs pivot mach429 vs ventana el ray-429.jpg  


  34. #34
    craigsj
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    Quote Originally Posted by ammedm
    my medium 429 weight is 3.07kg or 6.754 lbs (no bb, fd and headset)
    Do you know what the additional 3 parts weigh? Apparently, in Ubermach429's version they only weigh 90g.

  35. #35
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    My headset is 88g, shimano bb 72g and shimano XT fd 142g

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    Do you know what the additional 3 parts weigh? Apparently, in Ubermach429's version they only weigh 90g.
    He lists that he also has replaced bolts with ti and aluminum throughout, so his frame weight after the lunchbox upgrade was probably less. I think there is a guy on here that replaced his Kona hei hei frame/pivot bolts with ti bolts and dropped around 50g. I think his name was Cheers.

  37. #37
    craigsj
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    Quote Originally Posted by smoen81
    He lists that he also has replaced bolts with ti and aluminum throughout, so his frame weight after the lunchbox upgrade was probably less. I think there is a guy on here that replaced his Kona hei hei frame/pivot bolts with ti bolts and dropped around 50g. I think his name was Cheers.
    That seems likely and I would say it's disingenuous to use his build as an example of what can be expected. The frame doesn't appear to be stock from Pivot.

  38. #38
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    Uber's frame was stock from Pivot. A lunchbox kit saves weight, esp with the DW Link, as do ti bolts, a 6g seatclamp etc. As we know, the same product can weigh more or less than others too. Tell me you haven't ever weighed a few 'identical' tyres and found them to be at least 10% out? Maybe got one of the 'lucky frames?

  39. #39
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    Burly Bike

    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh
    OK, how much does a BB, FD and headset weigh? Take those out and whats left for the frame comparison weights? Since Pivot includes those in the frames... and all the weights referenced (at 7+ #) include those things, are the 5 or 6 # comparisons apples to oranges unless you add in the appropriate component weights on the other frames.

    The Pivot may still be heavier, I have no idea. But if you say frame A is lighter than frame B (which includes extra parts), your claims aren't very useful.

    So, what does a Pivot weigh without the BB, FD and headset parts?

    Or, alternatively, what does a Jet 9 and TB weight WITH the BB, FD and headset parts installed?
    So, I went to an LBS today that has C'Dale (this past week, I have been to the 3 C'Dale shops within 40-minutes of my locale, there are 2 more within an hour). I am "interviewing" each regarding Lefties on non-C'Dale bikes to see which one I'll choose to install a Lefty on the Tallboy. Anywho, this LBS also sells Pivot Bikes. He tells me about a build he did for a customer over 6' tall, over 200#s...Lefty Pivot Mach 429. The bike weighed in at 25# with light parts (not WW: no KCNC, no Tune, no Extralite, etc.). The LBS said they used a 120mm-->100mm Lefty. He said it is a good build that will stand up to most any abuse this guy could throw at it. Just FYI for any taller, heavier riders...

    Edit: Sorry, it was a 120mm Lefty. They checked it for tire clearance and put 20mm of spacers to get it to 100mm...

  40. #40
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    I originally bought a "painted" blue and white 429 and had it replaced from new with a black ano frame. I recorded on a spreadsheet all weights as it was being built up .

    Med Ano Black 429 with XTR press in BB, seat clamp and rear der hanger - 3.16kg/6.96lb

    Med Painted 429 with XTR press in BB, seat clamp and rear der hanger - 3.33kg/7.34lb

    So you have a 170g weight penalty on a painted 429 going with my scales OR maybe some of that was just variation between frames, also i believe my painted one was a 2009 model frame and the replacment was a 2010 , though i dont think there was any changes made 2009-2010 .

    As far as i know the "lunchbox" is basically the same as the stock parts removed except the suspension linkage has the middle machined out and a carbon fibre insert which from memory i think its around a 50g saving there.
    Last edited by ozzybmx; 08-23-2010 at 10:52 PM.
    Santa Cruz Hightower LT Evil Following Trek 9.9 Superfly SL IndyFab Deluxe 29 Pivot Vault CX Cervelo R3 Disc

  41. #41
    craigsj
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan123
    Uber's frame was stock from Pivot. A lunchbox kit saves weight, esp with the DW Link, as do ti bolts, a 6g seatclamp etc. As we know, the same product can weigh more or less than others too. Tell me you haven't ever weighed a few 'identical' tyres and found them to be at least 10% out? Maybe got one of the 'lucky frames?
    Regardless of how the frame weight was reduced or when it was, it is not representative of what others are claiming they weigh. Considering that's how his frame was brought up in the thread, that's pretty relevant.

    We are talking about a 1/2 pound here. I haven't heard of frame weight variances that high but I suppose it's possible. If Pivot can't control their frame weights better than that then I'd say it's a strike against them. I don't believe that's the case.

    Paint can account for quite a bit of weight.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj/
    If Pivot can't control their frame weights better than that then I'd say it's a strike against them.
    100% mate . The 429 in MED bare is only a couple of hundred gramme's shy of the equivilent JET9, though the JET9 is 3" and the Pivot is 4", its arguably stiffer and climbs better, its a no brainer IMO
    Last edited by ozzybmx; 08-24-2010 at 08:01 PM.
    Santa Cruz Hightower LT Evil Following Trek 9.9 Superfly SL IndyFab Deluxe 29 Pivot Vault CX Cervelo R3 Disc

  43. #43
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    22# Pivot Mach 429...it is possible

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    Considering that's how his frame was brought up in the thread, that's pretty relevant.
    How was the frame brought up in the thread? I saw ubermach429's build project. I posted to results. There is no misleading or misrepresentation on my part.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce9er
    In my experience, so far, no 29er pedals as well as the P429. The weight of the frame is the only thing that would hold me back, but I have seen them built up sub-23# (one even under 22#). if you are concerned with weight, but have the budget and like the DW-Link, the P429 is awesome.
    As far as relevance, a 22# Pivot Mach 429 is definitely relevant (maybe not to the OP, anymore). Wouldn't you want to know that your future build decision could be in a lighter range? That it was possible? I even preferenced it with "budget". No reading between any lines. Plus, the OP even knows UM429 personally. He has seen it with his own eyes. He took the pic! My encouragement would be for everyone to do their own homework before making decisions.

    Anyway, no more defense mechanisms...no hard feelings...no bridges burned...it's all good.

    As for tuning, this is for a Titus Racer X Carbon (26" Wheels). FWIW, if someone were to ask, I would say I saw one built under 17&1/2#...
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...31542#poststop
    Quote Originally Posted by Limon
    stock frame weight is 2269g with Fox RP23, steel bolts and nuts and 2099g with DT Carbon, Ti and Aluminum bolts and nuts.
    The rear shock accounts for 70g. That means 100g for tuning with Ti & Alu Bolts & Nuts... Relevance? Not sure, because Titus & Pivot are different, but it can give you a possible estimate, maybe, sort of, high range view of how much weight could come off IMO, YMMV, FWIW, AFAIK, IIRC...FTW!

  44. #44
    craigsj
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce9er
    How was the frame brought up in the thread? I saw ubermach429's build project. I posted to results. There is no misleading or misrepresentation on my part.
    My suspicion of the build has been vindicated as it seems clear his frame is not representative of stock without frame tuning. You brought his frame up as an example of a lightweight Pivot build so I think my point is clear. Most would not consider frame tuning as a standard part of buildup and they wouldn't assume it was done in this case. The 22# number serves to disguise the fact that the Pivot is heavier than its competition and, had I not challenged the build, I doubt it would have came to light that his frame is a 1/2 pound lighter than everyone else's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce9er
    As far as relevance, a 22# Pivot Mach 429 is definitely relevant (maybe not to the OP, anymore).
    It is, but no more relevant than a 21.5# Jet/El Rey build. Any frame can be built with light parts and even tuned to lower weight from stock. The most useful, direct information would be frame weights, not complete builds with unstated mods.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce9er
    My encouragement would be for everyone to do their own homework before making decisions.
    I agree. I would include scrutiny of mystery builds as part of the homework.

    I spent a great deal of time comparing those frames recently, as I already said, and the weight difference wasn't a determining factor, the $1000 cost savings was. I am happy with my Jet but I am certain that I would be happy with a 429 as well.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ammedm
    my medium 429 weight is 3.07kg or 6.754 lbs (no bb, fd and headset)
    I built this up a few months ago and this is what I found on a park digital scale- I jsut cut and pasted it from the old post (just for reference - http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=618456)

    "09' Medium (18.5") Ano Pivot Mach 429 w/ factory Ritchey Headset (less top cap, bolt, crown race, lock ring and cap) XT 771 Direct mount FD, and XTR BB bearings and it came in at 7 lbs 7 oz."

    " then for comparison sake (I was coming from an 07' Medium (18") Turner Sultan Ano w/ RP23 and factory Seat Clamp that came in @ 6 lbs 5oz) I wheighed my King BB ~3.5 oz, an XT 770 FD ~5.7 oz and a Cane Creek S3 headset ~3.5 oz ( less top cap, bolt, crown race, lock ring and cap) so a total of ~7 lbs 1.7 0z "



    A bit tough to nail down as it is not a completely "raw" frame but it gives the gist of it
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  46. #46
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    ... and if we just ... Vindicated???

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    My suspicion of the build has been vindicated as it seems clear his frame is not representative of stock without frame tuning.
    Quote Originally Posted by ammedm
    my medium 429 weight is 3.07kg or 6.754 lbs (no bb, fd and headset)
    Uh oh, better check your scale. Craig may not believe this to be true. How can it be? Are you sure? Can you please verify? Get a second opinion!!! There is no way. Is this stock or modified? Did you weigh it at higher altitude? Is this really a Pivot Mach 429? Are you able to get a notarized statement claiming your claim to be true?

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    It is, but no more relevant than a 21.5# Jet/El Rey build. Any frame can be built with light parts and even tuned to lower weight from stock. The most useful, direct information would be frame weights, not complete builds with unstated mods.
    But had I researched Jet9 frames (which I have no interest in, therefore no research) and found one that weighed 21.5#, I would have posted it in a similar fashion. Or, if someone else posted it (and I had any interest), I would have said, "Sweet." and asked for a link or done a forum search...

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    I agree. I would include scrutiny of mystery builds as part of the homework.
    I never stated mystery builds, I was more inclusive...any and all builds, do your homework.

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    I spent a great deal of time comparing those frames recently, as I already said, and the weight difference wasn't a determining factor, the $1000 cost savings was. I am happy with my Jet but I am certain that I would be happy with a 429 as well.
    I have spent time researching brands, frames, components, mods, warranties, weight weenie builds, etc., etc. (as I'm sure many on here have). There are a lot of determining factors. What limits me vs. you vs. the OP vs. others subscribed to this thread vs. those who have viewed this thread are very diverse and not the same. I gave a factual account with no strings attached for others viewing pleasure and info. No harm, no foul. Unless the OP states a limiting factor, i.e.: budget, height, weight, etc., I will share my opinion and research as best as possible. If I have questions, I will ask politely or do some research. I suggest others do the same.

    There are many light weight posts, as well as heavy weight posts, same bikes, different sizes, different components, there is such diversity, there is not, and IMO will there be, a set standard as to how to report anything, including weights of complete bikes. If anything, the 5.8# Jet9 (pre-reissue weight?) on WS will do more harm than good for those who blindly buy a frame and think they can get it below a certain weight (does anybody do that?)...I hope not, but I'm sure it happens, oh well, can't police everyone. Caveat Emptor...Buyer beware.

    Edit: Sorry for the thread hijack, I am done. No more posts about Pivot weight on this thread...we now return you to your previously viewed thread, already in progress!

  47. #47
    craigsj
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    Apparently, exposing that the frame in question is lighter than stock really irritates you, Deuce9er. I wonder why that is? I would say that accurate information is always useful.

    I have not challenged ammedm's weight not would I have reason to. His weight is consistent with what others have reported, the other frame is not. Some people like their answers to be right.

    So much for no more defense mechanisms.

  48. #48
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    Accurate Info

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    Apparently, exposing that the frame in question is lighter than stock really irritates you, Deuce9er. I wonder why that is? I would say that accurate information is always useful.

    I have not challenged ammedm's weight not would I have reason to. His weight is consistent with what others have reported, the other frame is not. Some people like their answers to be right.

    So much for no more defense mechanisms.
    No irritation. My info is accurate. Do you know how to convert grams to kilograms? Move the decimal. Do your math again and check to see if your statement makes sense...
    As promised, no mention of...

  49. #49
    craigsj
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    Have no idea what you are talking about nor what "info" of yours you think has been disputed, nor do I have any idea what math you think I need to do "again".

    The weight you quoted for his frame is 216g lighter than the 7lb 7oz "standard" commonly found, 245g lighter than the 7.5lb you mentioned, and 212g lighter than the weight ammedm reports. Do you dispute that?

  50. #50
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    New question here. ???

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    212g lighter than the weight ammedm reports. Do you dispute that?
    I dispute this. Who reported this?

  51. #51
    craigsj
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    ammedm did here in this thread.

    "my medium 429 weight is 3.07kg or 6.754 lbs (no bb, fd and headset)
    My headset is 88g, shimano bb 72g and shimano XT fd 142g"

    3070 + 88 + 72 + 142 = 3372

  52. #52
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    Read the fine print...

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj
    ammedm did here in this thread.

    "my medium 429 weight is 3.07kg or 6.754 lbs (no bb, fd and headset)
    My headset is 88g, shimano bb 72g and shimano XT fd 142g"

    3070 + 88 + 72 + 142 = 3372
    I never stated anything about HS, BB & FD. I never implied ubermach429 did, either. There was no reference whether those are included or not (nor do I know)...you assumed or took something plainly stated at face value into your own context. This is why I make my case for accuracy and clarification...if anyone has a question, ask before stating, arguing or trying to one up. One must first seek to understand before being understood...g' day! Done...unsubscribed...

  53. #53
    craigsj
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    I don't see any case for accuracy or clarification in what you say.

    If 3160g excludes the additional parts then his frame is overweight and his build weight doesn't add up as I had said originally. It's curious you didn't point that out the first time around. If you are really about accuracy, then work out his build from the apparent parts. I'm not afraid to do so, I did it and I reject his reported weights as representative of a Pivot build. I'm sure, with your crusade for accuracy, you won't do so.

    P.S. If 3160g is for bare frame then that would confirm that the 429 is over a pound heavier than the Jet as originally stated. I personally believe ammedm's numbers are more trustworthy.

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