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  1. #101
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    Ok. Now GG just came just came out with carbon smash. Make my life choices harder. Lol.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExhaustPipe View Post
    Ugh!

    That is one of the main reasons I am staying away from direct to consumer bikes. Any money saved is quickly eaten up with time and frustration. Grateful to have some kick ass bike shops near me.

    Good luck brother!!
    Thanks! I wanted to post a follow up here in case it's still of interest to anyone.

    Out of nowhere YT emailed me to say they were covering the frame crack and new piece was on the way to them from oversees and they'd let me know when it was one the way to me. So, long wait, but happy with the result.

    I poked them again about the dropper issue, they're sending a Fox Transfer Factory as a replacement for the RF Turbine, which is a significant upgrade.

    Seems like they've woken up on the warranty end of things and, while a bit slow, are taking care of folks.

    Felt the need to give them some ample credit here (Andreas in particular) for coming through.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldsklrdr View Post
    Ok. Now GG just came just came out with carbon smash. Make my life choices harder. Lol.


    HaHa! So true. We just ordered a Smash for my GF. Now she'll have the nicer bike...at least for a while!
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post


    HaHa! So true. We just ordered a Smash for my GF. Now she'll have the nicer bike...at least for a while!
    Not sure what height she is. But I'm 5'6" and being able to bring the reach TT in 10mm really puts it on the list.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    Not sure what height she is. But I'm 5'6" and being able to bring the reach TT in 10mm really puts it on the list.
    She's 5'6" as well. She'll get a Size 2 in the short position as she likes a long bike. She could ride a Size 1 in the long position.

    But, ya the adjustability is nice for sure. I had to order my metal Smash sight unseen so it was a bit of a risk, but I fit the bike perfectly so all is good.

    The GG guys are really nice to deal with so if you have any questions drop them a line.
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiotae View Post
    Thanks! I wanted to post a follow up here in case it's still of interest to anyone.

    Out of nowhere YT emailed me to say they were covering the frame crack and new piece was on the way to them from oversees and they'd let me know when it was one the way to me. So, long wait, but happy with the result.

    I poked them again about the dropper issue, they're sending a Fox Transfer Factory as a replacement for the RF Turbine, which is a significant upgrade.

    Seems like they've woken up on the warranty end of things and, while a bit slow, are taking care of folks.

    Felt the need to give them some ample credit here (Andreas in particular) for coming through.
    That's good to hear! I was going to say... the 2019's have revamped the der hanger mount for more clearance and protection (from what I've read) so they were definitely aware of the problem and would have been an easy case if you were to take legal action. I'm glad to know it didn't have to come down to that!

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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiotae View Post
    TFelt the need to give them some ample credit here (Andreas in particular) for coming through.
    I'm glad it worked out. Thanks for following with a post. You are right we should give companies credit when they come through for us. I haven't looked closely at the new YT bikes, but based on the few glances I did take they look pretty nice.
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  8. #108
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    Speaking of MA riding, I've never ridden there but just ran across some video of "Bruce & Tom's" in Gloucester. My oh my that looks like a blast. I'd ride that weekly if we had access to a trail like that. I guess it all depends on riding style but I'd personally want a 27.5 bike to throw around on trails like that.

    Bruce & Tom's for those that haven't seen it....https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...6&&FORM=VRDGAR
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    Speaking of MA riding, I've never ridden there but just ran across some video of "Bruce & Tom's" in Gloucester. My oh my that looks like a blast. I'd ride that weekly if we had access to a trail like that. I guess it all depends on riding style but I'd personally want a 27.5 bike to throw around on trails like that.

    Bruce & Tom's for those that haven't seen it....https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...6&&FORM=VRDGAR
    Not sure who mentioned Gloucester ( I did earlier in a different thread) Great place to ride but pretty much the norm here in Massachusetts.Bruce very dear friend of mine as we have cut/ built many of the stuff there No sure but good chance I'm in that video ( we've done so many) Come to Mass. look us up!!

  10. #110
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    Yep that's definitely B&T's but nope I'm not in that one. Typical day in the woods here in Mass. Most of the stuff I built got tore down as it was deemed " dangerous" at the other side coming down of what he called Eagle rock I built a sweet 12/12 gap drop called the barn drop( as I took as the wood from Bruce's barn project) but I had to rip it all down..That section at the 6 minute mark of the video is a very nasty line, video as always does no justice, Hard tail rocks out there..

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRAZY FRED View Post
    Not sure who mentioned Gloucester ( I did earlier in a different thread) Great place to ride but pretty much the norm here in Massachusetts.Bruce very dear friend of mine as we have cut/ built many of the stuff there No sure but good chance I'm in that video ( we've done so many) Come to Mass. look us up!!
    The OP said he lives in MA, I mentioned Gloucester because I just saw that video. Living as far west as possible in San Diego, anything East of Colorado is pretty foreign to me.
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  12. #112
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    So now Niner has the Rip 9 RDO 29er that looks really promising...damn its hard to pick a bike. Or maybe its hard to pick a bad bike

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmo View Post
    So now Niner has the Rip 9 RDO 29er that looks really promising...damn its hard to pick a bike. Or maybe its hard to pick a bad bike

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
    That bike looks like it could be amazing. Rip 9, Ripmo, Offering, La Sal.... I'd like to try a Rallon too.

    Some neat bikes out there right now.
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmj831 View Post
    That bike looks like it could be amazing. Rip 9, Ripmo, Offering, La Sal.... I'd like to try a Rallon too.

    Some neat bikes out there right now.
    Im selling my Rallon, 3K, practically new if you want one

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  15. #115
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    Sounds like a great deal, I'm 6'2" though. You're on a small right?
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiotae View Post
    I'd look between the Smash and Fugitive (LT?) if I was you. I think the La Sal is geared more toward big mountain stuff and wouldn't be as enjoyable for what you describe. My concerns:

    The spec sheet reads like they picked the most common critiques of bikes on PB and turned it up to 11 (for better or worse). Yeti does 77 SA? We do 78! You want bottle cage mounts? We have 3! A lifetime warranty is great, but getting a class leading frame weight at that price point means something had to give, it's not magic. A broken frame still sucks and means no riding for a while, even if they replace it for free. We just don't know how these hold up under hard use. Hopefully they rock, competition is good for consumers, but I wouldn't want to be the one to test it.
    FWIW, The Fezzari La Sal Peak was introduced before all the new Yeti's with the 77 degree STA.

  17. #117
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    ... and because it's carbon, you know they were prototyping the geometry in aluminum at least a year before it was introduced, so clearly they were paying attention before Pinkbike recognized the trend.

    Also, as if what we see on PB is trendy or just a big sales pitch to sell advertising, seriously!

    What I have never understood is this idea that bike mfgs are "ripping off" ideas from other mfgs. Come on, do you think any idea develops in a vacumn? How naive. Ideas develop in numerous "minds" at the same time, so to claim one person or one group had the idea first is pretty silly.

    I suspect these "modern geo" ideas developed decades ago, long before companies like Yeti existed, but way back in the day, the technology to make it happen just didn't exist.

    Don't be a hater, just appreciate what we got and look forward to what is coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcwashers View Post
    FWIW, The Fezzari La Sal Peak was introduced before all the new Yeti's with the 77 degree STA.
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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcwashers View Post
    FWIW, The Fezzari La Sal Peak was introduced before all the new Yeti's with the 77 degree STA.
    Haha, bad example on my part but the (largely comical) point still stands.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    ... and because it's carbon, you know they were prototyping the geometry in aluminum at least a year before it was introduced, so clearly they were paying attention before Pinkbike recognized the trend.

    Also, as if what we see on PB is trendy or just a big sales pitch to sell advertising, seriously!

    What I have never understood is this idea that bike mfgs are "ripping off" ideas from other mfgs. Come on, do you think any idea develops in a vacumn? How naive. Ideas develop in numerous "minds" at the same time, so to claim one person or one group had the idea first is pretty silly.

    I suspect these "modern geo" ideas developed decades ago, long before companies like Yeti existed, but way back in the day, the technology to make it happen just didn't exist.

    Don't be a hater, just appreciate what we got and look forward to what is coming.
    You referring to me here? Seems directed to me. I didn't imply any of the above in my post. I was mostly just making a joke (mocking PB, reference to Spinal Tap) prior to the part about warranty.

    If anything, most of the companies have a pretty good idea of what the others are working on because they're all looking at the same meta trends/critiques and coming to similar gradual changes. My joke was that sometimes Fezzari has the feel of taking on an extra degree of one upmanship. Doesn't mean they're wrong or bad or copying, but it is something to keep in mind that sometimes more isn't better, it's just more.

  20. #120
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    I'm actually super interested to see Pinkbike's upcoming review of the La Sal Peak, as - like you say - it basically hits every point that the Pinkbike comments are always asking for.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusBrody View Post
    I'm actually super interested to see Pinkbike's upcoming review of the La Sal Peak, as - like you say - it basically hits every point that the Pinkbike comments are always asking for.
    People will still complain. Everything is so good right now that's it's more about picking the best bike for your needs than anything else. I think this can make it harder to make the right choice as this isn't always qualified in reviews (professional or otherwise).

    Example: steeper seat tube angles are great, except they can put a ton of weight on your hands if a lot of your pedaling is on flatter sections as well as climbs. For some (I'd wager many) this will cause some real comfort issues. It isn't mentioned enough, usually all we hear is that a bike climbs better than it should due to the steep STA.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiotae View Post
    Example: steeper seat tube angles are great, except they can put a ton of weight on your hands if a lot of your pedaling is on flatter sections as well as climbs. For some (I'd wager many) this will cause some real comfort issues. It isn't mentioned enough, usually all we hear is that a bike climbs better than it should due to the steep STA.
    Yup. I have never been a fan of really steep STAs. Truly "sitting on the tip of my saddle" climbing represents a small % of my ride so I don't see the point in optimizing for it. I can move my butt up the saddle for the time needed. It's neither uncomfortable or difficult to do. What you can't do is move your butt backwards off the saddle on the flatter sections where you spend a significant amount of time riding and a super steep STA isn't ideal.

    So far I have been putting 1" setback droppers on my "modern" geo bikes and that tames the STAs enough to work for me. I suppose when STAs break 80+ degrees I'll probably have to start buying custom bikes.
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  23. #123
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    I think the sweet spot for my riding is 76ish, definitely not steeper. If I lived someplace with less stupid steep/technical stuff I'd want a little slacker.

    I may be doing the SM100 next year on my Fugitive. I'll definitely push my saddle back a bit for that (and train that way) because of all the 0-9% fireroad on the coarse. I'd DNF in my current position.

  24. #124
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    Not you, just the idea you mentioned, it gets bandied on PB and MTBR, as if there is any such thing as unique knowledge or a singular discovery.

    I totally expect that companies are looking at what other companies are doing, what's selling, etc..

    I am 100% sure there are bike company people googling products, reading professional and user reviews, even looking at mfg forums. They'd be foolish to ignore the market.

    So Fezzari has it figured out, which should scare some of the mfgs who still go through bike shops. Seriously, why would you pay twice as much for a Yeti that isn't better that a Fezzari?

    And just so folks don't get all in a huff, I'm not suggesting that a "walmart" approach to bike building is good or that losing the "little guys" is a trend I want to see happen, but when those little guys are charging an arse ton of $$ for their bike (Yeti, Ibis, Pivot), there comes a time when too much is too much. Even the little guys need to be competitive.

    Want to take a look at how the little guys can get ahead and win with a hometown, domestic made bike: Guerrilla Gravity.

    Quote Originally Posted by kiotae View Post
    You referring to me here? Seems directed to me. I didn't imply any of the above in my post. I was mostly just making a joke (mocking PB, reference to Spinal Tap) prior to the part about warranty.

    If anything, most of the companies have a pretty good idea of what the others are working on because they're all looking at the same meta trends/critiques and coming to similar gradual changes. My joke was that sometimes Fezzari has the feel of taking on an extra degree of one upmanship. Doesn't mean they're wrong or bad or copying, but it is something to keep in mind that sometimes more isn't better, it's just more.
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  25. #125
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    I find the compromises of steep stį angles MUCH easier to adapt to than the compromises of a slack stį. If I lived somewhere flat I'd chose a more relaxed stį, but then again I wouldn't be riding a 150/160 all mtn trail slayer either.
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  26. #126
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    Do any of the manufacturers indicate at what saddle height they measure the effective STA? It would be nice if it were standardized or at least clearly indicated on the geo drawings. I get the impression that this is far from apples to apples when looking at different bikes.
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    The Smash and Ripmo are on my short list. I like the YT but with a pressed in BB it is a deal killer.

  28. #128
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    How does the STA change with seat height?


    Quote Originally Posted by andy f View Post
    Do any of the manufacturers indicate at what saddle height they measure the effective STA? It would be nice if it were standardized or at least clearly indicated on the geo drawings. I get the impression that this is far from apples to apples when looking at different bikes.
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  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    How does the STA change with seat height?
    I think it would become effectively slacker on a bike with an angled seat tube like the Canyon Neuron instead of a straight Ibis Ripmo seat tube as the seat extends out. I think most manufacturers measure from the centre of the chainring to the back of the top of the seat tube. I think if you calculate it correctly it would be from the centre of the chaining to your seat.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    How does the STA change with seat height?


    Effective STA at ride height is measured as the angle of the line drawn from the BB to the seatpost clamp. If you have one of the common bike designs [like the Knolly above] where the seat tube does not connect the saddle with the BB. but instead attaches to the frame in front of the BB than as the saddle goes up the Effective STA measured at ride height gets slacker.

    So if you put an effective STA measurement in your geo chart it will vary depending how high the saddle was. Often it's measured at a height equal to the top of the head tube. So you could have two bikes that had the same effective STA at head tube height, but at ride height for a particular rider the effective STA they experience was quite different.
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  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Not you, just the idea you mentioned, it gets bandied on PB and MTBR, as if there is any such thing as unique knowledge or a singular discovery.

    I totally expect that companies are looking at what other companies are doing, what's selling, etc..

    I am 100% sure there are bike company people googling products, reading professional and user reviews, even looking at mfg forums. They'd be foolish to ignore the market.

    So Fezzari has it figured out, which should scare some of the mfgs who still go through bike shops. Seriously, why would you pay twice as much for a Yeti that isn't better that a Fezzari?

    And just so folks don't get all in a huff, I'm not suggesting that a "walmart" approach to bike building is good or that losing the "little guys" is a trend I want to see happen, but when those little guys are charging an arse ton of $$ for their bike (Yeti, Ibis, Pivot), there comes a time when too much is too much. Even the little guys need to be competitive.

    Want to take a look at how the little guys can get ahead and win with a hometown, domestic made bike: Guerrilla Gravity.
    I'm with you except I don't think that GG isn't the best comparison. They're consumer direct, so comparing them to retail brands isn't the best example. As a less established company, they're trying (and succeeding from what I can tell) to gain market share and expand. This will lead to more aggressive pricing during this phase, at the expense of overall profits. Those can come later when they're selling a lot more bikes.

    Don't get me wrong, I like GG a lot, almost bought a Smash. The big companies do need to be afraid of them, Fezzari and some others that are using a more direct, agile business style. It's going to chip away as higher end buyers are branching out from established brands.

  32. #132
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    I get that, but doesn't the front and rear suspension sag relatively equally? In this case it seems like the bike would flatten front and rear, leading to no net change in STA.

    Extreme differences in travel between front and rear suspension or in the case of a hardtail would be different scenarios.

    So if the STA is measured only as it relates to the B.B., then there can be no consistency as seat height would be a uncontrolled variable.

    Is this really how STA is measured? I thought STA was an actual measurement taken frim the seat post angle relative to the ground, same with HTA.

    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post


    Effective STA at ride height is measured as the angle of the line drawn from the BB to the seatpost clamp. If you have one of the common bike designs [like the Knolly above] where the seat tube does not connect the saddle with the BB. but instead attaches to the frame in front of the BB than as the saddle goes up the Effective STA measured at ride height gets slacker.

    So if you put an effective STA measurement in your geo chart it will vary depending how high the saddle was. Often it's measured at a height equal to the top of the head tube. So you could have two bikes that had the same effective STA at head tube height, but at ride height for a particular rider the effective STA they experience was quite different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    I get that, but doesn't the front and rear suspension sag relatively equally? In this case it seems like the bike would flatten front and rear, leading to no net change in STA.

    Extreme differences in travel between front and rear suspension or in the case of a hardtail would be different scenarios.

    So if the STA is measured only as it relates to the B.B., then there can be no consistency as seat height would be a uncontrolled variable.

    Is this really how STA is measured? I thought STA was an actual measurement taken frim the seat post angle relative to the ground, same with HTA.
    STA on a Hardtail gets steeper. On a FS it gets slacker. A degree or 2 depending on sag and actual STA.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    I get that, but doesn't the front and rear suspension sag relatively equally? In this case it seems like the bike would flatten front and rear, leading to no net change in STA.
    Well that's a different question than you asked above. When seated the rear of the bike sees much more weight than the front so the rear suspension sags more and the effective STA measured at ride height would be slacker.

    Now you can set your suspension to be level when seated, but that means when you are standing in the attack position the rear end of your bike will be higher than the front [relative to unweighted]. Because your weight moves forward and is balanced more equally between the shock and the fork.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    So if the STA is measured only as it relates to the B.B., then there can be no consistency as seat height would be a uncontrolled variable.
    That is correct, which is why it's hard to talk about because on that Knolly above 3 different riders who put their saddles at 3 different ride heights will experience 3 different effective measured STAs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Is this really how STA is measured? I thought STA was an actual measurement taken frim the seat post angle relative to the ground, same with HTA.
    You'll see often see two STA measurements in a geo chart "actual" and "effective".

    So say:

    Actual STA = 72 deg
    Effective STA = 75 deg

    In this ^^^ case the seat tube is angled backwards 72 deg relative to a flat surface the wheels are sitting on. But say in the case of the Knolly above since the seat tube joins the frame well in front on the BB when you measure the effective STA at a specific saddle height you'll get a steeper number like 75 deg. Often the effective STA reported in a geo chart is measured at a seatpost height equal to the top of the head tube.

    And as should be clear as you keep moving the saddle upwards the effective STA gets slacker and slacker moving closer in value to the actual STA.

    So why bother why this hard to define effective STA instead of the easy to define/measure actual STA? Well for the rider if you don't look down the only thing that matters to you is where your saddle and pedals are. How slack or steep the actual STA is doesn't matter at all. What impacts your riding is the effective STA, but only at the real ride height you specifically need to use.

    That leads to all sorts of confusion with different bike companies reporting effective STA measured at different saddle heights. So you can't really compare Bike A and Bike B by looking at STA numbers from a geo chart. I mean it gives you some information, but it's not [usually] a directly comparable number.



    This ^^^ is the 2018 GG Smash geo chart. SA = STA. Actual is 73.5 deg and Effective is 75.8 deg.
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  35. #135
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    No way, really?

    I may not be an engineer, but thatís pretty grammar school math

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    STA on a Hardtail gets steeper. On a FS it gets slacker. A degree or 2 depending on sag and actual STA.
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  36. #136
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    So Vik, I get what youíre saying, but what I donít get is why we even go through the virtual vs effective STA, versus having just a STA that is measured from horizontal. It just seems like smoke and mirrors or perhaps itís marketing bs?

    When comparing two bike, say the Signal Peak and the GG Smash, the Smash has a much longer reach than the Peak, so youíd think a large Peak would be too small compared to a large Smash, but thatís not the case at all.

    I initially ordered an XL Signal Peak because the reach was comparable to a large Smash, but in person the bike was huuuge, so clearly numbers are difficult to use in comparisons. Got the large and itís a good fit.

    It makes it hard for people to size a bike without a demo or without doing multiple builds until you (I) get it right.

    Whatís really wild is the variety of sizes that we try to sort into known parameters: S-XL, ST length, Reach, etc...
    XMed GG Smash 29/27+ (Frameset For Sale)
    Lrg Fezzari Signal Peak 29+
    Lrg Pivot Shuttle 27+ (wife's)

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    So Vik, I get what youíre saying, but what I donít get is why we even go through the virtual vs effective STA, versus having just a STA that is measured from horizonta
    Why don't we just use the actual STA? Like the 73.5 deg in the Smash geo chart above?

    Because the seat tube doesn't attach to the frame at the BB so the actual STA doesn't tell you what the the STA at your saddle height is. You could have two bikes with the same actual STA and not get the same saddle position at your ride height if they don't attach to the frame the same distance from the BB.

    Why bother with the effective STA? It gives you a better handle on what the position of your saddle relative to the BB will be at ride height. Better, but not perfect because manufacturers aren't measuring that effective STA at your specific ride height.

    A nicer solution would be to provide effective STA numbers for a few sample ride heights that cover the typical user range for that size of bike. I've heard some companies do that, but I haven't bought a bike from anyone that did. It starts to get complicated with all the numbers and I suspect it would confuse more than it would help.

    I don't think anyone is trying to BS or fool riders. It's just that communicating STA in a simple way is hard.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    When comparing two bike, say the Signal Peak and the GG Smash, the Smash has a much longer reach than the Peak, so youíd think a large Peak would be too small compared to a large Smash, but thatís not the case at all.

    I initially ordered an XL Signal Peak because the reach was comparable to a large Smash, but in person the bike was huuuge, so clearly numbers are difficult to use in comparisons. Got the large and itís a good fit.
    Reach can only be evaluated in conjunction with Stack since Reach is determined by Stack. So you can have two bikes with the same Reach and different Stack heights and they could be really different in size.

    Beyond that Reach is only useful for telling you how the bike will fit standing. Two bikes can have the same Reach and be totally different sizes seated.

    So ya nailing down bike fit is hard. Most companies offer sizing charts and will also help you pick a size if you tell them what you are currently riding.

    When I ordered my GG Smash the geo was quite a bit different to previous bikes so I narrowed it down to a medium or large via the geo chart. Then I emailed GG with my current bike geo and my height/inseam/ape index and they confirmed the medium was correct. I bought it and the fit is perfect.

    There are free online programs that will allow you to enter geo data for multiple bikes and then it will overlay the data so you see how the bikes compare. That can be useful.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  39. #139
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    The reason a true STA would helpful is that could predict changes in the distance between the seat and headbtube, but I get that the reach changes depending on how much stack you need for your bar height and the seat angle can vary greatly depending on where the seat post is attached relative to the B.B.

    Perhaps we need a different way of measuring, maybe using inseam with a standard crank length, bar position planning even with seat height, then measure from seat post center at the rail to bar center, give that dimension for inseam length by the half inch.

    This ^ measurement is generally what Iím looking at when I do my initial set up, so even for bikes with drastically different (as reported by mfg) reach, I can usually get close by tweaking stem length, bar height, and seat position.

    Seriously, I donít even think reported STA and stack mean a helluva lot, unless they give a variety of seat heights by inseam and somehow represent reach with a comparable stack. So maybe what Knolly is doing on the Fugitive is a good start.
    XMed GG Smash 29/27+ (Frameset For Sale)
    Lrg Fezzari Signal Peak 29+
    Lrg Pivot Shuttle 27+ (wife's)

  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Reach can only be evaluated in conjunction with Stack since Reach is determined by Stack. So you can have two bikes with the same Reach and differenht Stack heights and they could be really different in size.

    Beyond that Reach is only useful for telling you how the bike will fit standing. Two bikes can have the same Reach and be totally different sizes seated.

    So ya nailing down bike fit is hard. Most companies offer sizing charts and will also help you pick a size if you tell them what you are currently riding.

    When I ordered my GG Smash the geo was quite a bit different to previous bikes so I narrowed it down to a medium or large via the geo chart. Then I emailed GG with my current bike geo and my height/inseam/ape index and they confirmed the medium was correct. I bought it and the fit is perfect.

    There are free online programs that will allow you to enter geo data for multiple bikes and then it will overlay the data so you see how the bikes compare. That can be useful.
    Can you share The names of some of those free online programs?

  41. #141
    dmo
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    Geometrygeeks.bike is one

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