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  1. #1
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    How can this be?

    Bumped into Devin Lenz yesterday. He was on his Behemoth. I was on my Behemoth. He had Exi's on his bike. So did I.

    I had a BW 1.3 on my bike.

    He had a Fox 36 on his bike.

    ???

    MC
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  2. #2
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    Is it just me or is that hub eccentric?

    We need an explanation here!

    Padre is freaking out right now.

    B
    Last edited by donkey; 09-11-2005 at 02:12 PM.
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  3. #3
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    answers NOW!!!

  4. #4
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    OMG! could this be an eno ecc thru axle front hub?
    wanted: Cannondale Lefty w/ V-brake studs

  5. #5
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    As long as the tire fits in the lowers without rubbing the casting, one could probably use some plastic or aluminum spacers to limit the travel somehow, a la the Maverick forks. That's my guess. That thing has so much travel that even if one limited the stroke to prevent the tire from contacting the crown he'd still have one heck of a stiff and pretty light 29er fork with five or so inches of travel. It's still way too expensive IMO, even it can be rigged to fit a 29er.

  6. #6
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    Nah....someone didn't make a huge off-center front hub just to add length and tire clearance to an existing fork. That would be too smart, and an outrage that I hadn't come up with it first.
    I say Photoshop!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by donkey
    Is it just me or is that hub off center?

    We need an explanation here!

    Padre is freaking out right now.

    B
    Very interesting! Would need a new caliper mount.
    How is the hub center prevented from turning?
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Very interesting! Would need a new caliper mount.
    How is the hub center prevented from turning?
    As for the caliper....is it possible that he's using a 7" rotor with a 6" caliper mount? Or 8 and 7? Something along those lines?

    Man, this is getting weird. I love how Mike exits stage left just as things start to get unexplainable:-)! Always one to leave us in suspense.

    B
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by AteMrYeats
    As long as the tire fits in the lowers without rubbing the casting, one could probably use some plastic or aluminum spacers to limit the travel somehow, a la the Maverick forks. That's my guess. That thing has so much travel that even if one limited the stroke to prevent the tire from contacting the crown he'd still have one heck of a stiff and pretty light 29er fork with five or so inches of travel. It's still way too expensive IMO, even it can be rigged to fit a 29er.
    If the tire fits in the stock arch you should not need to reduce the travel of the fork.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by donkey
    As for the caliper....is it possible that he's using a 7" rotor with a 6" caliper mount? Or 8 and 7? Something along those lines?

    Man, this is getting weird. I love how Mike exits stage left just as things start to get unexplainable:-)! Always one to leave us in suspense.

    B
    Hard to say. It is not clear how much the alignment change is.

    This system would let the hub designer to change the fork rake.

    I am wondering about the rotor mounting with the offset axle. Larger bolt circle diameter?


    MC does know how to get the buzz started!
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Hard to say. It is not clear how much the alignment change is.

    This system would let the hub designer to change the fork rake.

    I am wondering about the rotor mounting with the offset axle. Larger bolt circle diameter?


    MC does know how to get the buzz started!
    You're probably right about the larger bolt circle diameter. That appears to be a Hope rotor and I recall that their "Bug Un" hubs require a large BCD 5 bolt rotor? Hmmm..

    VERY interesting. It's still puzzling in terms of how this system is keeping the hub from slipping.

    B
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  12. #12
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    Wouldn't some multi-part rotors allow to be taken apart and the outer, actual rotor, to be bolted directly to the hub?

    Someone really wanted to use a Fox fork for what they don't plan to ever make one...
    Looks to me like the axle is well over an inch off-center. Probably room for the same tire size as without the 29" conversion, 2.5-2.6?

    Semi offtopic : if the new White Brother MAC system is what we expect it to be, what reason are we left with to want a Fox? Just for sponsorships sake? This is from someone who never rode one, thus doesn't understand the hype :-)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Very interesting! Would need a new caliper mount.
    How is the hub center prevented from turning?
    I am guessing that the axle is solid in the eccentric, not loose, so that when you tighten the thru-axle clamps it effectively locks the eccentric in whatever position it's in. That'd scare me though, you'd think it would slip.

  14. #14
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    Is a splined interface out of the question?

  15. #15
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    Ahhhhhh!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Bumped into Devin Lenz yesterday. He was on his Behemoth. I was on my Behemoth. He had Exi's on his bike. So did I.

    I had a BW 1.3 on my bike.

    He had a Fox 36 on his bike.

    ???

    MC
    I am hyperventilating........

    More info please

  16. #16
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    Every morning I get up and check to see if something new has been unveiled on the board and most mornings I am dissapointed...... but not today!

    I would like to see a pic of the tire clearance at the arch.

    Spill the beans Mike, how does it work?

    And it can be "Pushed" for increased perormance.
    blah blah blah

  17. #17
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    Exactly

    my concern. Further, the obviously place for it to rotate is upwards towards the arch, not downards.

    Regardless, cool shyte.

    So, did it ride better MC (assuming you rode it)? Given that you've been privy to Blackbox WB forks for a while your read would be mucho appreciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by mward
    That'd scare me though, you'd think it would slip.
    Professional Amateur

  18. #18
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    Better question...... when can we get one?

  19. #19
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    Splined is a great idea, but I'm wondering how the axle is secured in the dropout without slipping. Maybe there is a key that fits in the clamping slot?

  20. #20
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    According to the fox site it is a steped 20mm through axel. Maybe the steps give it enough resistance against rotating.
    Last edited by ozlongboarder; 09-11-2005 at 03:36 PM.
    blah blah blah

  21. #21
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    Ooops...didn't let the picture load enough. It's definately an eccentric or offset hub. Boy, do I feel stupid.
    Last edited by AteMrYeats; 09-11-2005 at 04:03 PM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mward
    I am guessing that the axle is solid in the eccentric, not loose, so that when you tighten the thru-axle clamps it effectively locks the eccentric in whatever position it's in. That'd scare me though, you'd think it would slip.
    Though you still need to remove the axle to remove the wheel from the fork.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by donkey
    You're probably right about the larger bolt circle diameter. That appears to be a Hope rotor and I recall that their "Bug Un" hubs require a large BCD 5 bolt rotor? Hmmm..

    VERY interesting. It's still puzzling in terms of how this system is keeping the hub from slipping.

    B
    Looks like there is room in an Avid 203 rotor to cut out the center and drill new holes.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Padre
    What about interference with the DT on bottom-out?
    Depends on the frame.

    But if the tire is going to hit the DT it does not matter what fork is on the bike. The fork crown is in the same place no matter the amount of travel or what size wheel it was designed for.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    If the tire fits in the stock arch you should not need to reduce the travel of the fork.
    What about interference with the DT on bottom-out?

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Padre
    What about interference with the DT on bottom-out?
    So have you ran out into the garage yet to see if big wheels fit Madre's fork?

    B
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  27. #27
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    Oh yeah, when I talked to Devin a couple of months ago he said he was working on a new hub. That must be it. How could I have forgotten to pass that along? LenzSport proprietary hub!

    He is also developing some suspension ski-bikes I guess.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by donkey
    So have you ran out into the garage yet to see if big wheels fit Madre's fork?

    B
    Nope.
    1st I'd need to convert my DT FR hub back to it's thru-axle set up in order for it to mount up. I need guidance on that.

  29. #29
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    Hub uses massive bearings, 'Axle' must key into the 'eccentric' somehow. Not a huge engineering feat, but a nifty, heavy solution to the problem of not enough decent 29er forks on the market, yeah?

    Now, if I had the inclination, my preference would be to make some new fork lowers and stuff them with Fox internals until Fox decided to make a 29er fork, of course. That seems like a better solution to me.

    Still Devin......I'm sure he'll sell heaps. You got 24 months!

    GO!

    No longer member of the bike industry nor society, so don't hassle me.

  30. #30
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    The thru-axle on my Sherman is hex-shaped on one side: it's definitely not going to spin in the fork dropouts. How you'd keep the hub from spinning around the axle, however, is an open question. I'm guessing dsl will enlighten us when he's ready to sell some.

    I'm mainly curious if the system only works with Fox forks, or if it'll work with any 20mm TA fork. All the Fox forks with a TA are very spendy.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Caballo
    ...I'm mainly curious if the system only works with Fox forks, or if it'll work with any 20mm TA fork. All the Fox forks with a TA are very spendy.
    Me, too. I also hope there is enough arch clearance for other forks and tires. I measured the radius of the Specialized Fast Trak 29x2.00 as 5 mm larger than the Exiwolf.
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  32. #32
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    Some (not many) answers

    It was fun to sit back and watch y'all piece it together from a low-res, grainy pic!

    The short answer is that Devin needs to explain the long answer.

    The few details that I know:
    Yes, it's an eccentric hub.
    Yes, he milled out the center of an Avid 203mm rotor and re-drilled it (nice sleuthing, Shig).
    The hub is kept from rotating by an arm that attaches to the old caliper mount.
    The hub has incorporated a new caliper mount.

    This whole thing came about because of Devin's ceaselessly thinkering brain, not to mention his unmatched skills as a fabricator. I just happenned to be there to see it for it's maiden voyage.

    Hopefully he'll lift his nose from the Interbike grindstone long enough to shed some light on it.

    MC

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    It was fun to sit back and watch y'all piece it together from a low-res, grainy pic!

    The short answer is that Devin needs to explain the long answer.

    The few details that I know:
    Yes, it's an eccentric hub.
    Yes, he milled out the center of an Avid 203mm rotor and re-drilled it (nice sleuthing, Shig).
    The hub is kept from rotating by an arm that attaches to the old caliper mount.
    The hub has incorporated a new caliper mount.

    This whole thing came about because of Devin's ceaselessly thinkering brain, not to mention his unmatched skills as a fabricator. I just happenned to be there to see it for it's maiden voyage.

    Hopefully he'll lift his nose from the Interbike grindstone long enough to shed some light on it.

    MC
    Wow, that's really impressive. Good for him. I think there will be more than a few forum members ready to pay up for this one.

    Neat.

    B
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    The hub is kept from rotating by an arm that attaches to the old caliper mount.
    Raise your hand if Devin has just made you feel like a retard.

    [raises hand]
    Last edited by El Caballo; 09-11-2005 at 11:15 PM.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Caballo
    Raise your hand if Devin has just made you feel like a retard.

    [raises hand]
    Hand raised!!

    Durability will be the big question. Lets get Lance Canfield on one and see if he can break it.
    blah blah blah

  36. #36
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    Hand raised!
    I still don't get the Fox hype, but that's one impressive way to make something work for you. I guess indeed he might just as well have done a whole wheelsize independent DH linkage fork and stick a Fox damper in that :-)

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Though you still need to remove the axle to remove the wheel from the fork.
    Yeah you're right, I didn't think of that. This guy is a ninja master!

  38. #38
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    So you need to remove the discmount-mounted torque arm to switch a front wheel? If the disc could remain stuck to the wheel for TA removal, that's interesting...

    I demand a ride report! And what forks are subject to similar conversions?

  39. #39
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    WOW, I need to talk to that guy.......

    I must agree that hub is very clever solution to a problem. Let's see some detailed pics of the brake side! I lurk here allot because I am curious about getting a 29er bike, and I see this?? Wow, I'll have to lurk some more!!

    Rob
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  40. #40
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    Couple Q's -

    What are the changes to the Head-Angle & BB Height like?
    Changing a front flat just got a little more time consuming too, seeing how
    the caliper is bolted to the hub.
    - Maybe a quick-connect on the brakeline? That would likely introduce air into the
    system though....
    Cool idea and sure is a lotta time invested just to get a Fox up there, but I can see
    why.
    - You need to try Cloxxki to understand why....
    Last edited by DMFT; 09-12-2005 at 03:19 PM. Reason: spell chizeck

  41. #41
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    16 candles

    I am a neo-maxi-zoom-dweebie, but this all sounds really cool for 29er freaks like me.

    MiCly
    GET Bret Weir, I said.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMFT
    ...Changing a front flat just got a little more time consuming too, seeing how the caliper is bolted to the hub.
    - Maybe a quick-connect on the brakeline? That would likely introduce air into the
    system though...
    My "quick connect" works well and would not add much time to the normal through-axle time.
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMFT
    What are the changes to the Head-Angle & BB Height like?
    I'm not that familiar with the Fox forks, but I believe that one has travel and length adjustments. If so, you could change the HTA and BB height to suit yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by DMFT
    Changing a front flat just got a little more time consuming too, seeing how the caliper is bolted to the hub.
    On this first proto, that's true and it's also why I only rode it for ~20 minutes. Now that he knows it will work and fit, Devin's already working on the next one that'll address the user-friendly issues.

    I'll leave it to Devin to post pics of the brake side. I'm not so sure he wants anyone to see it yet.

    MC

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    On this first proto, that's true and it's also why I only rode it for ~20 minutes.

    MC
    Please kind sir, compare the "feel" to the WB...


    If it feels 50% as good as the all-air 36 on my wife's Bullit...tasteeeee!!!!

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    You beat me to it, Shiggy. After we put 8 inch Avid mechanicals on our full suspension tandem and broke them in going down the Shaefer Switchbacks on the White Rim I decided I never needed another hydraulic brake. Total weight of bike and riders has gotta be in the 400 pound range.

    Ken

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    OT: brakes

    Quote Originally Posted by AK Ken
    You beat me to it, Shiggy. After we put 8 inch Avid mechanicals on our full suspension tandem and broke them in going down the Shaefer Switchbacks on the White Rim I decided I never needed another hydraulic brake. Total weight of bike and riders has gotta be in the 400 pound range.

    Ken
    OT: Good call Ken.
    I've had 'em on my DH bike, my SS, and my gearies...
    They have never, ever, ever failed me.
    At the 12 Hour DH race we did. My wife and I completed 22 downhill runs at about 3 miles each. So, about 70 miles of downhill. Never wanted to use more than 1 finger and they never faded, bubbled, burped, or failed. Love em!
    Here's a new cool one finger braking shot...8" rotor up front...7" out back....
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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Padre
    Please kind sir, compare the "feel" to the WB...
    If it feels 50% as good as the all-air 36 on my wife's Bullit...tasteeeee!!!!
    Only rode it 20 minutes, so take it for what it's worth.

    The Fox felt a tiny bit more supple on small stuff. That's the only difference I felt. Can't say that it was any stiffer, and it felt identical on big hits.

    More time on it might change that opinion in many ways, so we'll just have to wait and see.

    My $.02 is that it's a lot of money, hassle, and weight that doesn't solve enough problems to be worthwhile. Especially with the upcoming WB technology. But then I'm not a rabid Fox fanatic.

    Kapish?

    MC
    Last edited by mikesee; 09-12-2005 at 10:27 PM. Reason: clarification

  48. #48

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    Hey Mike, I intend to be in Moab all of October. I'm flying down this time, so maybe I'll actually get farther than Fairbanks. Hope to see you.

    Ken

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK Ken
    You beat me to it, Shiggy. After we put 8 inch Avid mechanicals on our full suspension tandem and broke them in going down the Shaefer Switchbacks on the White Rim I decided I never needed another hydraulic brake. Total weight of bike and riders has gotta be in the 400 pound range.

    Ken
    Note the slot I Dremeled in the cable stop. Lets me completely remove the cable from the caliper without removing the (missing) endcap or dust boot. Easy on - easy off.
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  50. #50
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    Brilliant

    I assume you did this because you you run drops and don't have a quick release at the levers?
    Jeff
    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    My "quick connect" works well and would not add much time to the normal through-axle time.

  51. #51
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    cable end replacement?

    Shiggy's nicely frayed cable reminded me. I've been experimenting with dipping cable ends in superglue after I ran out of cable ends. I confess it has not been tested in the wet season yet, but it is real nice to be able to pull a cable out and reinstall it with little to no chance of a stray wire (so far). Anybody else try that one?

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by heavyg
    Shiggy's nicely frayed cable reminded me. I've been experimenting with dipping cable ends in superglue after I ran out of cable ends. I confess it has not been tested in the wet season yet, but it is real nice to be able to pull a cable out and reinstall it with little to no chance of a stray wire (so far). Anybody else try that one?
    I used to solder mine back in the 90s and then didn't do it for a long time. I tried it a few weeks ago and the solder refused to wick into the wire. Maybe they're coated now or something.

  53. #53
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    Were they teflon coated cables? If so, I wonder if that could effect it. I just recycle the old cable end caps as many times as I can.
    Last edited by ozlongboarder; 09-13-2005 at 04:49 AM.
    blah blah blah

  54. #54
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    yup

    I tried that too, with similar crappy results. When I did actually get a blob of solder on, it was only after heating the crap out of the wire and seemed to make it pretty brittle. Plus the blob of solder didn't like to fit through some of the holes it needs to go through.

  55. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    Semi offtopic : if the new White Brother MAC system is what we expect it to be, what reason are we left with to want a Fox? Just for sponsorships sake? This is from someone who never rode one, thus doesn't understand the hype :-)
    If the action on my White's is typical of the genre then I can certainly understand why one would want to ride a FOX. About the only thing I miss on both of my 26ers is the FOX fork. Zero stiction and like butter.

  56. #56
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    Posts
    132

    Superglue works great

    Been using superglue for years and it holds up well. Just have to make sure to coat the cable all around, the glue is hard to see as it is being applied. I buy the non clog squeeze bottles, as opposed to those use-em-once squeeze tubes that clog after one use.

  57. #57
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    787

    jam it in, nurse

    My method for the superglue was to just jam the wire into the end of the crappy little squeeze tube. Seemed to work great.

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