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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Where are these magical places?

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    I'm still cracking up at your assertion that anything that isn't downhill, is all under the XC banner. So XC bikes are the fastest best bikes at actual XC, but they are also the fastest and actually only needed bikes short of full pro downhill or EWS? Gotcha! LOL

    Anyways, 3 trails within 10 miles of my home in South Austin include at the extreme end 30' ravines too steep too slow down down on, at least 1 25' do or die gap jump over a creek, man made smaller gap jumps and step downs, man made wooden ramps and small bridges, and literally 100s of vertical drops ranging from 18" to 72" range, many times in quick succession. Both of these goes up and down and is usually pretty slippery with loose rock. It's hard to ever get moving very fast except for a few sections that head downhill for longer than 2-3 minutes as it's often like pedaling in quicksand. I don't see many riders on these trails and often when I do, they are pushing their bike asking how the heck to get out of there.

    Now I don't mean to imply that all trails around here are like that, in fact these are not the common trails at all. But these are what I personally chase and enjoy. You usually have to know someone to learn about them.

    There are a set of smooth flowing trails very near my home that wind through the trees. They are long and it's kind of pretty. I personally find that sort of riding very boring. I rode there once for 30 minutes and won't go back unless I get my wife or daughter on a bike at some point. That my friend, is XC and anyone would be much faster back there on a HT skinny tired lightweight machine. But it's just not my thing.

    ~ take care

  2. #202
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    I wasn't aware the XC bikes were required to be HTs or have skinny tires. News to me.

    Here are some excellent XC trails I've ridden:

    https://www.mtbproject.com/trail/704021

    https://www.mtbproject.com/trail/5271508

    https://www.mtbproject.com/trail/1563507

    https://www.mtbproject.com/trail/7001381
    Death from Below.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    I'm not raging. That's why I said it's cute that so many people are butt hurt by being xc at heart. I'm guessing that most of the people here who think xc is only lycra clad racers are young or haven't been around very long.

    When a few of us started biking, there was only DH and xc. Imo if you aren't on an 8 inch travel downhill rig using a chair lift...you are riding xc.
    For those of us that have been in the scene since the mid-90's, you forgot one important category...."Freeride". Late 90's - early 2k, when I started watching the Kranked & NWD movies, is basically when I began to destroy my XC bike, haha. Started to slowly upgrade parts, and sporting a shin guards / full face helmet. Those were the days.

    Freeride pretty much embodies every aspect of mtb'ing....on which ever bike you have at your disposal

  4. #204
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    Free ride was the first added category. Thanks.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willstylez View Post
    For those of us that have been in the scene since the mid-90's, you forgot one important category...."Freeride". Late 90's - early 2k, when I started watching the Kranked & NWD movies, is basically when I began to destroy my XC bike, haha. Started to slowly upgrade parts, and sporting a shin guards / full face helmet. Those were the days.

    Freeride pretty much embodies every aspect of mtb'ing....on which ever bike you have at your disposal
    Or if you raced XC and DH and Dual slalom on the same bike, in the same day. I kinda miss the mid 90's style for that alone.

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  6. #206
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    Well to get back on topic, the OP when trying to find the ideal 29er really needs to consider his biking needs as local trails vary greatly. In addition to skill levels, interests, weaknesses, etc..

    Are his trails XC, or are they more AM? This really matters a lot.

    PS. The Specialized bikes, offer fantastic value. The issue is that the FSR suspension has some efficiency compromises which is why specifically the XC models from Specialized utilize the 'brain' to try to aid in that faster XC pedaling platform. But the more trail oriented bikes don't include the brain as their focus is less on outright smooth XC speed and more on chunky AM trails. So if you go with a Stumpjumper for instance, which is more of a trail/ AM bike than a XC bike, just expect to not be as fast and efficient when the trails get smooth and fast and to maybe find yourself a bit more tired than you might otherwise be. The trade back is very supple pleasant FSR rear suspension which is pretty much near the top when it gets chunky and starts heading down and it also hooks up well on very chunky climbs. If you are a great climber anyways, or just don't particularly prioritize that aspect of the ride, ideal bikes really.

    If you want a bike that can descend and climbs with a more efficient platform, choose one of the bikes that offer great pedaling platforms like Intense, Santa Cruz, or Yeti. Just be warned they don't offer that ultra plush confidence inspiring feeling of FSR. Because I am a weak climber and the time it takes to climb matters a bit to me, these are better choices for me personally.

    Good luck!

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    Or if you raced XC and DH and Dual slalom on the same bike, in the same day. I kinda miss the mid 90's style for that alone.

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    Hahaha, yeah dude, was a simpler time!

    My 1st "burly" frame was a 2001 SC Chameleon, and scored a Deemax Wheelset & Grimeca disc brakes from Cambria Bike, to pair with the RS Psylo fork I transferred from my XC bike. After working on my skills for a few years, I made my first appearance at Plattekill. The stanchion of the Psylo seperated from the crown half way down the mtn. I survived luckily. Bought a Marzocchi Z150. Over the winter, scored an unused, warrantied Giant DH Team frame. Put the Z150 on it, and shredded everything until i could afford a 888!

    Back in the day, it was all fun. Everyone was riding Frankenstein bikes. No one cared. Today, there seems like a stigma that if you're riding your bike outside its intended brochure "category", you're a newbie or an idiot. But most people just want to get out and ride, and work their way up the skill ladder.

  8. #208
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    Its interesting many people ride bikes which accentuate their weaknesses.

    People who don't descend well that ride 29er XC whips and folks who can't climb that ride 6 inch decending wonders.

    Ripley with a 140 Pike is good option to be on topic...

    Each to their own, just interesting.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.A.M. View Post
    Its interesting many people ride bikes which accentuate their weaknesses.

    People who don't descend well that ride 29er XC whips and folks who can't climb that ride 6 inch decending wonders.

    Ripley with a 140 Pike is good option to be on topic...

    Each to their own, just interesting.
    That all falls into where their interests lie. I could give my friends that love to climb my Hightower and out descend them on my old Kona Big Kahuna because it's what I love to do. Going up they'd still beat me even with the handicap because it's what they love to do. If you aren't racing buy something that leads itself to what you enjoy.

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  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.A.M. View Post
    Its interesting many people ride bikes which accentuate their weaknesses.

    People who don't descend well that ride 29er XC whips and folks who can't climb that ride 6 inch decending wonders.

    Ripley with a 140 Pike is good option to be on topic...

    Each to their own, just interesting.
    Exactly. Like the guy in the gym that has solid biceps, so keeps doing more curls cause it feels great to do them so well. But he really needs to work out his legs but just won't, cause you know, he isn't good at it.

    Human nature I'd say!

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Exactly. Like the guy in the gym that has solid biceps, so keeps doing more curls cause it feels great to do them so well. But he really needs to work out his legs but just won't, cause you know, he isn't good at it.

    Human nature I'd say!
    Thats me in a nut shell...............


    But curls for the girls work. just saying

  12. #212
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  13. #213
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    There are some good thoughts in this thread. I'm looking for a 29er I can use to participate in longer events. The focus is climbing but it has to double as a trail bike either way. I currently am on a 29 lb Spider 29 Comp. I was thinking about making it lighter but it is a few years old with an older 9-speed 2x9 setup. It probably makes more sense to just get a new bike and keep this as a backup. It has to be carbon which is easy enough. It has to be a good climber so I'm starting to look at the DW Link bikes. The Yeti 4.5 is probably next in line, though I have trust issues with their carbon frames and CS reputation. The Following is out due to its weird seat tube angle. Weird seat tube angles, steep head tube angles (anything at or above 69 degrees) and super-low BBs are not going to work for me, so I'm looking carefully. I'll also focus on Boost, if buying a new bike, so that eliminates the Turner Czar.

    So far, I have the Ripley LS and Intense Primer in my sights. Built light-ish, I suppose they could do okay on long events that include a lot of pedaling and climbing.

  14. #214
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    The new tall boy got a pretty good review on pinkbike this morning about its climbing abilities mixed with nice trail mannerisms.

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  15. #215
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    BB on the Tallboy is a bit low but I could deal with it given that the rest of the geometry looks pretty good. The geo is somewhat similar to my Spider but hopefully it pedals even better. That is the important thing. Otherwise, upgrading is a bit pointless. I like it though. I'll have to read some recent reviews.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer View Post
    There are some good thoughts in this thread. I'm looking for a 29er I can use to participate in longer events. The focus is climbing but it has to double as a trail bike either way. I currently am on a 29 lb Spider 29 Comp. I was thinking about making it lighter but it is a few years old with an older 9-speed 2x9 setup. It probably makes more sense to just get a new bike and keep this as a backup. It has to be carbon which is easy enough. It has to be a good climber so I'm starting to look at the DW Link bikes. The Yeti 4.5 is probably next in line, though I have trust issues with their carbon frames and CS reputation. The Following is out due to its weird seat tube angle. Weird seat tube angles, steep head tube angles (anything at or above 69 degrees) and super-low BBs are not going to work for me, so I'm looking carefully. I'll also focus on Boost, if buying a new bike, so that eliminates the Turner Czar.

    So far, I have the Ripley LS and Intense Primer in my sights. Built light-ish, I suppose they could do okay on long events that include a lot of pedaling and climbing.
    I'd re-build your Spider if it still in good shape, it's a damn good bike and roughly a 6 lb frame. I had two Spider 29's AL and C. I sold the Comp to a close friend when I bought my Following. When I re-built the Comp for him I did a 1x10 with fairly light components in the 26 lb range with dropper. I also ran angle sets on my Spiders from day one to get the HA in the 67.5-67 deg range.
    The Followings seat tube angle only gets out of whack if you have longer legs for your height and have to jack the seat post up. The Spider is a half pound lighter frame that the Following other than that they're both great pedaling, all around bikes.
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  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer View Post
    There are some good thoughts in this thread. I'm looking for a 29er I can use to participate in longer events. The focus is climbing but it has to double as a trail bike either way. I currently am on a 29 lb Spider 29 Comp. I was thinking about making it lighter but it is a few years old with an older 9-speed 2x9 setup. It probably makes more sense to just get a new bike and keep this as a backup. It has to be carbon which is easy enough. It has to be a good climber so I'm starting to look at the DW Link bikes. The Yeti 4.5 is probably next in line, though I have trust issues with their carbon frames and CS reputation. The Following is out due to its weird seat tube angle. Weird seat tube angles, steep head tube angles (anything at or above 69 degrees) and super-low BBs are not going to work for me, so I'm looking carefully. I'll also focus on Boost, if buying a new bike, so that eliminates the Turner Czar.

    So far, I have the Ripley LS and Intense Primer in my sights. Built light-ish, I suppose they could do okay on long events that include a lot of pedaling and climbing.
    Both the Ripley and Primer would work. I rode and plan to ride again a 45 miler with 10K of climbing on my Primer. The Primer has adjustable travel 130mm -115mm witch s a plus. The new VPP bikes are excellent climbers.

  18. #218
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    I am thinking about that. I'm 5'11" on a medium and it is a touch small but workable and not uncomfortable. I just have to use a slightly longer stem though and fortunately my Command Post is setback. While the sizing works fine that way, that setback probably affects my climbing a bit with the rearward bias. So that was one option anyway.

    I just built up a couple of nice road bikes so I can't pull the trigger on a new full-built mountain bike immediately. I could pick up a frame and collect parts or just wait a bit, while I figure this out. Chances are good I'd end up with a size large frame in the ones I'm looking at.

  19. #219
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    If the Primer climbs better (more efficiently) than the Spider, I bet it is pretty impressive. It would be a very versatile bike.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer View Post
    If the Primer climbs better (more efficiently) than the Spider, I bet it is pretty impressive. It would be a very versatile bike.
    It does....and way out climbs the Tall Boy (older version) it replaced.

    After all the bikes I demoed it just hit the nail on the head with what I wanted. A 115mm bike for longer days in the saddle and 130mm for everything else :-)

  21. #221
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    Is it easy to switch the fork travel, or are you running a travel-adjust fork to match the rear travel position? I'll have to demo a Primer. The Spider has been a pretty nice bike so far. I'll build the next one lighter for sure.

  22. #222
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    I'd definitely go with a Primer if I was in the market for a new frame. I like pretty much everything about that bike except that the left off the iscg tabs.
    Function in disaster, finish in style.

  23. #223
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    My Spider will drop a chain every now and then....annoying. I'm running a 2x though. With the huge cassettes nowadays, I could run a 1x. The iscg tab is probably less important then, I guess.

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    A bike that doesn't get mentioned enough is the 2017 Rocky Mountain Element.

    I have a BC Edition ordered that just showed up. Had an Evil The Following and like mentioned here, wasn't a fan of the seat tube angle and low bb. Awesome on tech terrain, but you felt the weight at the end of a 5 hour, 2400 meter ride... This Element is going to destroy climbs and won't hold me back on descents. Also owned a 2013 Element, and the new one should be like a cross between the old Element and the Evil...

    Element | Rocky Mountain Bicycles

    You have to translate, but a great review.

    EuroBike Media Days: Rocky Mountain Element 970 RSL | Velozine

  25. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer View Post
    Is it easy to switch the fork travel, or are you running a travel-adjust fork to match the rear travel position? I'll have to demo a Primer. The Spider has been a pretty nice bike so far. I'll build the next one lighter for sure.
    That is the rear travel....I guess you could put a Fox Talas on it if you wanted

  26. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by survivalofthefattest View Post
    A bike that doesn't get mentioned enough is the 2017 Rocky Mountain Element.

    I have a BC Edition ordered that just showed up. Had an Evil The Following and like mentioned here, wasn't a fan of the seat tube angle and low bb. Awesome on tech terrain, but you felt the weight at the end of a 5 hour, 2400 meter ride... This Element is going to destroy climbs and won't hold me back on descents. Also owned a 2013 Element, and the new one should be like a cross between the old Element and the Evil...

    Element | Rocky Mountain Bicycles

    You have to translate, but a great review.

    EuroBike Media Days: Rocky Mountain Element 970 RSL | Velozine
    Let us know how it rides in the chunk, the leverage rate is extremely progressive for something that has an air shock (which adds a bunch more progression). Rather than decrease the rate towards the end of the travel like most do with an air shock, RM increases it, which is typical of a coil shock installation. Will be interesting to see your observations.
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  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by manitou2200 View Post
    I'd definitely go with a Primer if I was in the market for a new frame. I like pretty much everything about that bike except that the left off the iscg tabs.
    Running SRAM Eagle and haven't dropped a chain yet

  28. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    Running SRAM Eagle and haven't dropped a chain yet
    It's not so much for the chain retention as it's for the CR protection.
    Function in disaster, finish in style.

  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by survivalofthefattest View Post
    A bike that doesn't get mentioned enough is the 2017 Rocky Mountain Element.

    I have a BC Edition ordered that just showed up.
    ((High Five)) .... Thats such a darn good looking/sounding bike, you must give us a few photos and a mini review once you`ve had a few good rides with it .....

  30. #230
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    Good point!
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  31. #231
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    If you want a bike that can descend and climbs with a more efficient platform, choose one of the bikes that offer great pedaling platforms like Intense, Santa Cruz, or Yeti. Just be warned they don't offer that ultra plush confidence inspiring feeling of FSR. Because I am a weak climber and the time it takes to climb matters a bit to me, these are better choices for me personally.

    Good luck![/QUOTE]

    I agree VPP and Yeti W/switch- Infinity are at the top of the list for better platforms for and all day bike. I've owned FSR link bikes and they have a great feel and very true my not be the ideal climber designs.
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  32. #232
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    I would love to demo the Instinct and Element. Hopefully I can find a demo or dealer near Pasadena CA.
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  33. #233
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    In what world do VPP designs end up at the top of the list for pedaling performance?

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  34. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    In what world do VPP designs end up at the top of the list for pedaling performance?

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    the intense and santa cruz marketing page.....duh

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    Today's shocks make most designs pedal well, susp design is the meh part for me

  36. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tickle View Post
    Today's shocks make most designs pedal well, susp design is the meh part for me
    That is what I always thing until I ride a Specialized FSR in the open setting and spend the ride flipping levers back and forth. I find I much rather prefer a multilink bike that I can leave the levers alone on a ride. But then again Im not racing up any hills anymore so i guess lever flipping is less of a deal, more of a annoyance.

  37. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    In what world do VPP designs end up at the top of the list for pedaling performance?

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    With many Intense and SC bikes at or above 100% anti-squat through a large portion of the travel these days, they do pedal quite well.
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  38. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    In what world do VPP designs end up at the top of the list for pedaling performance?
    In the world of their fanatic fan boys. The same folks who said that short top tubes are awesome.

  39. #239
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    I've never experienced pedal kickback like I did on a VPP Santa Cruz Tallboy.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

  40. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    I've never experienced pedal kickback like I did on a VPP Santa Cruz Tallboy.
    The newer versions I have not experienced it on fwiw.

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  41. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardmtnbiker View Post
    I would love to demo the Instinct and Element. Hopefully I can find a demo or dealer near Pasadena CA.
    I doubt it. 2017 Rocky Mountain Element will be available in the US in April 2017. That sucks. I was very interested in this bike but I am not sure if want to wait that long.

  42. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    The newer versions I have not experienced it on fwiw.

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    I had a V1 Tallboy and it did not pedal well. Had the shock tuned and it helped but still not great. I was / am a DW fanboy and knew my next bike would be a DW. That was until I demoed several new DW and VPP bikes.

    The new VPP bikes pedal great....and ended up buying a VPP over the DW

  43. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by manitou2200 View Post
    I'd definitely go with a Primer if I was in the market for a new frame. I like pretty much everything about that bike except that the left off the iscg tabs.
    Primer is not available in frame only option

  44. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark85 View Post
    Primer is not available in frame only option
    If it's not yet it will be.


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  45. #245
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    I agree the deal's on those bikes are pretty amazing. I just don't buy complete bikes, I have wheel sets, RF Next Cranks, XT and XTR parts and of course bars, stems and saddles. So when I buy it's always going to be frame only or frame and fork.
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  46. #246
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    Frame only is the only option for me. I'm not looking to buy extra parts,I have a garage full of them.
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  47. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgw7000 View Post
    I think the holy grail 29er should be able to take 27.5+ wheels also.

    This is the bike I choose and I love it with my new wheel set that's lighter than most 29er wheels on the market, tires also light and durable at 755g each. This bike feels even more nimble with greater traction than ever before. No desire to upgrade to any 2017 bike!! 2016 Trek Fuel EX 9.9 29er at just a bit over 24lbs with pedals.
    That's impressive, what rims?? I see the big Bonti Chupa tires, I know there 3". I bet it bull dozers over everything!
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  48. #248
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    Holy Grail of FS 29er Trail Bike

    Just to clarify the reason for the Trail Bike title in the thread was to imply a 29er, that has worthy travel to gobble rocks and drops, much better than a XC short travel bike. Then on the upper end it isn't all about the descent and climbing wouldn't be a chores and you'd feel like you have more bike than you need on your local trails then end up keeping that bike in your garage until you shuttled or went to a bike park.
    The "Holy Grail" was to address the what I see as an improvement of medium travel bikes that have the slack 66* HTA, short stays, longer reach, and lower BB. That's just my personal take.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkr80015 View Post
    or this29er for the hero dirt, 27+ for the slippery stuff
    Very nice!!
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    An RS-1 is an interesting choice for that frame but it doesn't look like it's to steep by the pics. Nice bike!
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  51. #251
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    I've been real happy with my camber carbon comp. I put carbon rovals and a fox 34 at 140 mm. I'm a wicked strong climber and descender, this set up works pissa around New England. It's the friggin' Goldilocks of bikes kid.

  52. #252
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    The "Holy Grail" of FS 29er Trail bike?

    Quote Originally Posted by hardmtnbiker View Post
    An RS-1 is an interesting choice for that frame but it doesn't look like it's to steep by the pics. Nice bike!
    The Hightower comes with a Pike, my Pike happens to be the RCT-3 version. I run it at 150mm. In the high setting on the rear shock it has a 66.8* head tube angle and a 66.5* head tube angle in the low position. With 29er wheels in the high position the bb height is 13.625" and 13.3" in the low position. With 27+ wheels the bb is 13.19" with a 3.0" front and 2.8" rear tire. I have not tried the low position with 27+ wheels because I don't want to go lower with the bb. I run 38mm internal carbon wheels and WTB tires with 27+ which works out to the same weight as my 29er ARC 27/DT350 wheels with Maxxis Minion DHR II tires


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    Enjoy the ride...

  53. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardmtnbiker View Post
    Just to clarify the reason for the Trail Bike title in the thread was to imply a 29er, that has worthy travel to gobble rocks and drops, much better than a XC short travel bike. Then on the upper end it isn't all about the descent and climbing wouldn't be a chores and you'd feel like you have more bike than you need on your local trails then end up keeping that bike in your garage until you shuttled or went to a bike park.
    The "Holy Grail" was to address the what I see as an improvement of medium travel bikes that have the slack 66* HTA, short stays, longer reach, and lower BB. That's just my personal take.

    For me this is the holy grail for full Susser 29 trail bike. 66.5 head angle 16.3 chain stays. She's no light weight but rides and climbs like a champ. Best tech climbing squishy bike I've ridden and eats the chunky downs like no other. I've had it in pisgah DuPont and taking it out west this year. And my choice for hard tail holy grail bike is my carbon epo with a 140 stage



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    I would have brought up my Riot as well, but "most people" cannot get over the weight of the bike and it get dismissed. For reference my size large with a XTR drivetrain with XO carbon cranks, roval carbon wheels, Carbon haven bar and maxxis 2.3 tires came in at 31lbs. I do love the bike though, and it climbs much lighter then the scale. However, the 2 extra pounds is a turn off to most looking for a holy grail bike.

  55. #255
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    I think you mean "trailer bike". Those bikes that have become so big and heavy that you tow them up the hill to roll them down or push them off. That's funny stuff.
    I only use my brakes going Up hill.

  56. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    the 2 extra pounds is a turn off
    Only 2?!

    I can't stand anything over 27. 29 is ridiculous.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

  57. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Only 2?!

    I can't stand anything over 27. 29 is ridiculous.



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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    I would have brought up my Riot as well, but "most people" cannot get over the weight of the bike and it get dismissed. For reference my size large with a XTR drivetrain with XO carbon cranks, roval carbon wheels, Carbon haven bar and maxxis 2.3 tires came in at 31lbs. I do love the bike though, and it climbs much lighter then the scale. However, the 2 extra pounds is a turn off to most looking for a holy grail bike.
    Crappy real world performance, fragility, and boring is a turn off too. I love my burley Switchblade.


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  59. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    I would have brought up my Riot as well, but "most people" cannot get over the weight of the bike and it get dismissed. For reference my size large with a XTR drivetrain with XO carbon cranks, roval carbon wheels, Carbon haven bar and maxxis 2.3 tires came in at 31lbs. I do love the bike though, and it climbs much lighter then the scale. However, the 2 extra pounds is a turn off to most looking for a holy grail bike.
    I haven't weighed mine yet and probably won't but I sold a 2016 Carbon expert stumpy to build the riot and I have no regrets the riot is a much more capable and fun bike. At least for me it is.


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  60. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighguy29 View Post

    For me this is the holy grail for full Susser 29 trail bike. 66.5 head angle 16.3 chain stays. She's no light weight but rides and climbs like a champ. Best tech climbing squishy bike I've ridden and eats the chunky downs like no other. I've had it in pisgah DuPont and taking it out west this year. And my choice for hard tail holy grail bike is my carbon epo with a 140 stage



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    I would love try this canfield out at Gooseberry this year. Lance bring one to the rampage..


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  61. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by gooseberry1 View Post
    I would love try this canfield out at Gooseberry this year. Lance bring one to the rampage..


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    I'm planning a trip out to Bellingham this year and hoping to get a chance to ride with the bros while I'm out there


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  62. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    I would have brought up my Riot as well, but "most people" cannot get over the weight of the bike and it get dismissed. For reference my size large with a XTR drivetrain with XO carbon cranks, roval carbon wheels, Carbon haven bar and maxxis 2.3 tires came in at 31lbs. I do love the bike though, and it climbs much lighter then the scale. However, the 2 extra pounds is a turn off to most looking for a holy grail bike.
    For a bike in 140mm 29er trail club. There isn't many lighter. And the ones I tried, don't perform as well. If the Riot was carbon. And built as well. You'll probably have a 30lb bike. Look at the Switchback. Thinner walls and less moving parts don't mean a better bike.

  63. #263
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    I looked at the switchblade, however I truly HATE the way a pivot bike feels. Short and tall and sitting ontop of the bike. I like long reach and short stays, neither pivot is good for. That and I think Ibis DW is better. Nothing against them, but I am just not a fan of their bikes feeling. Same goes for cannondale. The lat bike of theirs I liked was 2009 Rize. I heard rumors of a carbon Riot next year...... my pennies are already being saved.

  64. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    ...and short stays, neither pivot is good for.
    I believe there is only 1 bike in the same category with shorter stays.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

  65. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    I looked at the switchblade, however I truly HATE the way a pivot bike feels. Short and tall and sitting ontop of the bike. I like long reach and short stays, neither pivot is good for. That and I think Ibis DW is better. Nothing against them, but I am just not a fan of their bikes feeling. Same goes for cannondale. The lat bike of theirs I liked was 2009 Rize. I heard rumors of a carbon Riot next year...... my pennies are already being saved.
    Hear ya, I'm short. So my issue with the Switchback was the BB height. I'll be building a Riot soon. With avy woodie and Yari. If the carbon Riot is better in a year I'll probably get it.

  66. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    I believe there is only 1 bike in the same category with shorter stays.

    True, but the high tower is still a mid travel trail bike. It's build it around 30lbs as well. The Sumpjumper is lighter. But dosent climb nearly as well as the others mentioned IMHO

  67. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    True, but the high tower is still a mid travel trail bike. It's build it around 30lbs as well. The Sumpjumper is lighter. But dosent climb nearly as well as the others mentioned IMHO
    I'm talking about the Switchblade, not the Hightower. A switchblade is about 27lbs.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

  68. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Only 2?!

    I can't stand anything over 27. 29 is ridiculous.
    27!!! Good lord. I too built up a Riot, and even went with a heavier 27.5+ setup which weighs in at 31.6 lbs. I built it up with everything I wanted from start to finish, and decided to roll with this over the carbon bikes I tested under 30lbs. I haven't had 1 ride where I wished I went with a carbon bike. In saying that, I'm still saving my money for the 2018 carbon Riot

  69. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    True, but the high tower is still a mid travel trail bike. It's build it around 30lbs as well. The Sumpjumper is lighter. But dosent climb nearly as well as the others mentioned IMHO
    I went from a 2016 carbon expert stumpy to the riot. And the riot is just a better performer all around for me. Climbs way better descends like a beast.


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  70. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    I'm talking about the Switchblade, not the Hightower. A switchblade is about 27lbs.
    Not according to my scale. The Switchblade is 30lbs with carbon wheels.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The "Holy Grail" of FS 29er Trail bike?-img_2267.jpg  

    The "Holy Grail" of FS 29er Trail bike?-img_2266.jpg  


  71. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    Not according to my scale. The Switchblade is 30lbs with carbon wheels.
    Interesting. Thanks.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    Not according to my scale. The Switchblade is 30lbs with carbon wheels.
    Yeah this is what I was thinking. We need to remember that the frame weight is only 1/3 the weight of the bike. You can probably build a 27-28lb Riot as well but I wouldn't want to ride it. We keep expecting the frame builders to make lighter frames. But we need to expect the same from all the support parts, without being to weak.

  73. #273
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    Seeing that makes me feel better about the 31.2 I saw on the scale with my riot.

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    I'm guessing my Switchblade is probably 30llbs. Personally I love everything about the bike. Stiff, DWL, short stays, great fit and tough. BB height is fine with me and I ride in a very rocky area.


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  75. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    Yeah this is what I was thinking. We need to remember that the frame weight is only 1/3 the weight of the bike. You can probably build a 27-28lb Riot as well but I wouldn't want to ride it. We keep expecting the frame builders to make lighter frames. But we need to expect the same from all the support parts, without being to weak.
    My XL 5.5c is 1oz over 31 lbs. I built it with a do-all wheelset that I can ride in a park without wincing: Flow MK3s laced to Onyx hubs, wearing real tires with a DD casing in back. That meets my needs pretty well. I figure I might eventually get a second wheelset for lighter duty with DT hubs and lighter tires (maybe a lighter cassette) and cut 2 lbs off the total weight.

  76. #276
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    My Hightower weighs a tad over 28 with heavy Minion DHF,DHR.
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  77. #277
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    I'm 5-8 and felt the same way about the Switchblade. I didn't need another bike but I broke down and bought an Intense Primer when I found a essentially unused 2017 'Pro' model for a price too good to pass up.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The "Holy Grail" of FS 29er Trail bike?-img_2221.jpg  

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  78. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    My XL 5.5c is 1oz over 31 lbs. I built it with a do-all wheelset that I can ride in a park without wincing: Flow MK3s laced to Onyx hubs, wearing real tires with a DD casing in back. That meets my needs pretty well. I figure I might eventually get a second wheelset for lighter duty with DT hubs and lighter tires (maybe a lighter cassette) and cut 2 lbs off the total weight.
    This brings up a good point. This is your" Holy Grail" trail bike. Some people may want a 120mm or smaller bike. And not need stronger parts. So one man's Holy Grail is another's Dixie cup.

  79. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Interesting. Thanks.
    No prob

    The "budget / Foundation build" Intense Primer with alloy wheels was the same weight.

    The other difference was the Switchblade pedaled like a 30+ pound bike and the Primer pedaled like a 27 pound bike
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The "Holy Grail" of FS 29er Trail bike?-img_2272.jpg  

    The "Holy Grail" of FS 29er Trail bike?-img_2271.jpg  


  80. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    No prob

    The "budget / Foundation build" Intense Primer with alloy wheels was the same weight.

    The other difference was the Switchblade pedaled like a 30+ pound bike and the Primer pedaled like a 27 pound bike
    I would disagree that it felt heavy. I really like nice, light bikes and I really liked the Switchblade I'm 29er guise. I have not ridden a Primer.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

  81. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitechredneck View Post
    Seeing that makes me feel better about the 31.2 I saw on the scale with my riot.

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    I weighed my riot today in its final build trim and it weighed in at 32.95 lbs. only carbon on mine is the bza bar


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  82. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    I would disagree that it felt heavy. I really like nice, light bikes and I really liked the Switchblade I'm 29er guise. I have not ridden a Primer.
    Ride a Primer :-)

  83. #283
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    Not one local, nor does my shop carry it. I'm a big advocate of supporting my LBS. Additionally I'm not a fan of VPP. Major pedal feedback compared to DW.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

  84. #284
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    [QUOTE=hitechredneck;13009191]Seeing that makes me feel better about the 31.2 I saw on the scale with my riot.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG

    Those Riots look great. Would be fun to build one up for a bike park rig.

  85. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Not one local, nor does my shop carry it. I'm a big advocate of supporting my LBS. Additionally I'm not a fan of VPP. Major pedal feedback compared to DW.
    DW fanboy myself. Rode the Primer, Switchblade, Hightower and Ripley LS. I owned a SC Tallboy and was not impressed with VPP. However the new VPP from Intense and Santa Cruz is phenomenal.

    My son races Enduro and has a Ibis Mojo HD3 (DW) and loves that bike. Recently he demoed a SC Bronson and was blown away........

  86. #286
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    I'm all about riding as many bikes as I can. I'll have to make an effort to find a Primer. Thanks for the good info.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

  87. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    I'm all about riding as many bikes as I can. I'll have to make an effort to find a Primer. Thanks for the good info.
    Is Intense coming to the Festival in March?
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  88. #288
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    They aren't listed on the site. OTE doesn't carry them so I would think not. Zion Cycles carries them but that bike would be a special order.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

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    I own a Pivot Trail and a Hightower and the only diff. in pedaling is the Pivot has a bit more anti-squat which is good on smoother trails but in loose rocks I prefer the Hightower. I think the new VPP pedals very smoothly and isn't at a disadvantage from the DW link. I almost bought the Intense Primer, looks very interesting.

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    What about the YT Jeffsy? 140/150 ripper that can be built to 26-27 pounds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgman25 View Post
    What about the YT Jeffsy? 140/150 ripper that can be built to 26-27 pounds.
    I haven't been on one but on paper I'd compare it to A Stumpjumper. Which I didn't like (ecept for the storage in the downtube)
    It's anti squat nubers put it a little worse than the stumpjumper, it wouldn't be a bad technical climber with an active suspension but would wear you out, going down hill it's probably a blast, and almost no pedal kickback.

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    The reviews seem to think it is a pretty great bike. It seems a lot of the newer geo 29'ers are getting pretty heavy at 30+ pounds. I like that the Intense Primer, YT Jeffsy, and even the SC Hightower are still keeping the weight down. Obviously the Primer is not quite as suited for the downs as a YT.

    I would like to see how a YT at 27 pounds compares to a Switchblade, Riot, etc. at 30+ pounds. The Primer is interesting to me, but very expensive and not quite enough travel for the PNW riding I like to do. It would be a great compliment to a 160mm bike.

  93. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgman25 View Post
    The reviews seem to think it is a pretty great bike. It seems a lot of the newer geo 29'ers are getting pretty heavy at 30+ pounds. I like that the Intense Primer, YT Jeffsy, and even the SC Hightower are still keeping the weight down. Obviously the Primer is not quite as suited for the downs as a YT.

    I would like to see how a YT at 27 pounds compares to a Switchblade, Riot, etc. at 30+ pounds. The Primer is interesting to me, but very expensive and not quite enough travel for the PNW riding I like to do. It would be a great compliment to a 160mm bike.
    Switchblade and Riot have more moving parts in their suspention, and possibly built to take more abuse. Adding to their weight. Pointed down the YT wI'll probably hang well. Going up, it's going to be harder to climb.

    If I was given one, I'd run it 2x11 or a 26t with an E13 cassette to get some anti squat on the climbs.

    But it does depend on what you're climbing. A really chunky trail you want an active suspension. I don't personally like DW bikes on this type of trail. The Riot so fat has been the only bike I've riden (not saying it's the only one) that climbs most things well.

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    So you think a 32 pound Riot will outclimb a 27 pound Jeffsy? There are many facets of climbing, but that would be interesting to see. Maybe on highly technical chunky climbs, but on typical single track climbing trails or even fire roads, very doubtful. There is a reason the Jeffsy doesn't have mounts to run 2x and from what I have read on their suspension curves, it is supposed to be most efficient around some small rings.

    I have no doubt the Pivot and Riot would be a little stronger on the DH as they are built that way. I am looking for a good balance between climbing and descending. I have a 27 pound Mach 6 and really don't want to go to a 30 pound bike. I beat the crap out of my Mach 6 and it handles everything I can throw at it. Not sure why some of these top end bikes are getting so heavy.

  95. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgman25 View Post
    So you think a 32 pound Riot will outclimb a 27 pound Jeffsy? There are many facets of climbing, but that would be interesting to see. Maybe on highly technical chunky climbs, but on typical single track climbing trails or even fire roads, very doubtful. There is a reason the Jeffsy doesn't have mounts to run 2x and from what I have read on their suspension curves, it is supposed to be most efficient around some small rings.

    I have no doubt the Pivot and Riot would be a little stronger on the DH as they are built that way. I am looking for a good balance between climbing and descending. I have a 27 pound Mach 6 and really don't want to go to a 30 pound bike. I beat the crap out of my Mach 6 and it handles everything I can throw at it. Not sure why some of these top end bikes are getting so heavy.
    I think efficiency is more important than weight (at least when a few lbs are considered) think about it like this. If you and I were going to push a wheeled sled mine is 31lbs and yours is 27lbs. But I get to push it on a cement and you have to push it in sand (but the track for the wheels are the same to not distract from the visual) I'll be less work out. After a few miles.

  96. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgman25 View Post
    So you think a 32 pound Riot will outclimb a 27 pound Jeffsy? There are many facets of climbing, but that would be interesting to see. Maybe on highly technical chunky climbs, but on typical single track climbing trails or even fire roads, very doubtful. There is a reason the Jeffsy doesn't have mounts to run 2x and from what I have read on their suspension curves, it is supposed to be most efficient around some small rings.

    I have no doubt the Pivot and Riot would be a little stronger on the DH as they are built that way. I am looking for a good balance between climbing and descending. I have a 27 pound Mach 6 and really don't want to go to a 30 pound bike. I beat the crap out of my Mach 6 and it handles everything I can throw at it. Not sure why some of these top end bikes are getting so heavy.
    How can you say the bolded then boil it down to weight?

    The YT is a horst link- yes they can be tuned differently, but the major traits are the same.

    The Canfield suspension is a really good system. Just read reviews of the Balance. I think the Riots suspension was better than the HL bikes I've owned/ridden.
    OG Ripley v2

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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    How can you say the bolded then boil it down to weight?

    The YT is a horst link- yes they can be tuned differently, but the major traits are the same.

    The Canfield suspension is a really good system. Just read reviews of the Balance. I think the Riots suspension was better than the HL bikes I've owned/ridden.
    HL bikes do climb technical well, but I don't think the Balanced design gives up much there. The Tantrum on paper looks great as well. Honestly, if it fit me, and I would be begging for a test ride.

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    Well, I did specify the bolded claim and separated with fire roads and single track vs. chunky technical climbs. Look, I am not here to start an argument and I am obviously a big fan of Pivot bikes and almost bought a Canfield. I guess for me, I have been riding a 27.5 bike for 3 years. I am very interested in the new geo 29ers. So if we are talking holy grail stuff, mine would be climbing close to as strong as the best 29ers while descending and jumping like a great 27.5 bike. Love my Mach 6, but looking for newer updated geo and better speed on single track trails both up and down.

    Intense is just a bit too short of travel for one bike does it all (for me) and a Wreckoning might be too much for my riding. I love the Wreckoning too and plan on demo'ing one, but it is a big and burly bike. Or heck, just get a Following and Wreckoning and call it a day. Just having a hard time going from 27 pound bikes to getting fully spec'ed carbon bikes that are over 30 pounds. I realize it isn't all about weight, but the YT and hopefully others have that Goldilocks appeal where they can descend and DH like great 150/160 27.5 bikes and climb like a great 29er, while keeping weight in check. There are pros and cons to everything, but for me, this new breed of 135-150 29er bikes that can do everything a 27.5 bike can do and then some is very intriguing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgman25 View Post
    The reviews seem to think it is a pretty great bike. It seems a lot of the newer geo 29'ers are getting pretty heavy at 30+ pounds. I like that the Intense Primer, YT Jeffsy, and even the SC Hightower are still keeping the weight down. Obviously the Primer is not quite as suited for the downs as a YT.

    I would like to see how a YT at 27 pounds compares to a Switchblade, Riot, etc. at 30+ pounds. The Primer is interesting to me, but very expensive and not quite enough travel for the PNW riding I like to do. It would be a great compliment to a 160mm bike.
    Agree. I am thinking of building up more of a park style "budget" bike. The Primer is what is it called....a trail bike and not the best choice for the rougher stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgman25 View Post
    Well, I did specify the bolded claim and separated with fire roads and single track vs. chunky technical climbs. Look, I am not here to start an argument and I am obviously a big fan of Pivot bikes and almost bought a Canfield. I guess for me, I have been riding a 27.5 bike for 3 years. I am very interested in the new geo 29ers. So if we are talking holy grail stuff, mine would be climbing close to as strong as the best 29ers while descending and jumping like a great 27.5 bike. Love my Mach 6, but looking for newer updated geo and better speed on single track trails both up and down.

    Intense is just a bit too short of travel for one bike does it all (for me) and a Wreckoning might be too much for my riding. I love the Wreckoning too and plan on demo'ing one, but it is a big and burly bike. Or heck, just get a Following and Wreckoning and call it a day. Just having a hard time going from 27 pound bikes to getting fully spec'ed carbon bikes that are over 30 pounds. I realize it isn't all about weight, but the YT and hopefully others have that Goldilocks appeal where they can descend and DH like great 150/160 27.5 bikes and climb like a great 29er, while keeping weight in check. There are pros and cons to everything, but for me, this new breed of 135-150 29er bikes that can do everything a 27.5 bike can do and then some is very intriguing.
    Not trying to argue with you, but IMHO you have to wait. A do it all 29er, again my opinion a bike strong enough and efficient enough will weigh around 30lbs unless you have unubtainuim parts. I've said before we keep wanting bike companies to build lighter bikes. But the frame isnt even 1/3 the weight. It would be great if we can get 3lb long travel forks, and other parts that are light and can still handle a beating, and do a great job,for a decent price. But I don't think we're there yet.

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