HELP needed -MC, anyone, please, desparate...- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
    The Duuude, man...
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    HELP needed -MC, anyone, please, desparate...

    Here's the background:
    *Lenz Leviathan
    *WB BW .8
    *American Classic disc hubs
    *Avid Juicy brakes

    = work flawlessly

    *then I bought some new King hubs, ISO disc
    *no change to brakes, fork, anything else

    and the Rotor rubs the fork leg like a mofo. Makes a sound that makes you want to go throw yourself from the nearest tall building.

    I LBS can't help me, talked to WB: they say they've not heard of it, suggested using spacers to move the hub to the non-disc side and re-dishing the wheel

    I spoke to King last night, they said it's not possible to re-space the hub, that they would be happy to evaluate the wheel to insure it's in spec if I send it in...

    I talked to Devin, he is willing ot send my replacement frame (he's replacing it anyway, I have a demo frame now) with rear V mounts.

    Luckily I had my wheels built with v-compat rims, so I can switch to V's if neccesary, although Padre wouldn't approve.

    So please help with solutions!! Anyone have this issue? Am I going to be stuck with V-brakes, not that there's anything wrong with that.

    Here's 2 shots: close and closer:

    <img border=2 img src="https://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/867718/rotorrub.jpg">

    <img border=2 img src="https://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/867718/rotorrub2.jpg">
    FS: Everything

  2. #2
    The Duuude, man...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncj01
    Here's 2 shots: close and closer:
    Note: it's the silver bottom part of the fork leg that contains the actual dropout that's rubbing on the side of the rotor...
    FS: Everything

  3. #3
    giddy up!
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    Dang.

    Brother that is a tough one.

    Not to be a downer but there really isn't a fix for that, as there is no adjustment to be made at the hub.

    I'd say you'd want to talk to king and WB about that, the latter probably being a bigger part of the problem.

    It seems that there have been quite a few reports of rotor issues with the Dub B's lately huh?

    Sorry man.

    B
    www.thepathbikeshop.com

  4. #4
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    Nearly same issue, although....

    I have yet to get any rub. Only 1 ride in so I am worried about any fork flex whatsoever, rotor warpage etc. One suggestion my shop had was to reface the rotor mount. Haven't explored that yet although I am 100% sure the wheel build is spot on---our local guy is flawless and well known for his build quality.
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  5. #5
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    Couple thoughts.

    1) Are your drop outs on the fork aligned? Perhaps have the shop use an alignment tool to verify.

    2) Is the hub axle assembly correctly put together?

    3) Is the spacing on the front hub 100mm? Could there be too many spacers in the axle?
    MTBR is serious stuff.
    You never get better until you get out of your comfort zone.

  6. #6
    giddy up!
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    I'm 97% sure there is not a tool for facing the rotor mount on a hub, only a tool for facing the IS tabs on the fork or frame.

    Bummer.

    B
    www.thepathbikeshop.com

  7. #7
    Flight Junkie
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    Mine is super close also, but no rub. I thought it was too close, but the LBS said it was OK if not rubbing. It did worry me though. It sounds like it's a problem with King and WB. Probably more of a problem with WB since the front is an ISO hub and used on thousands of other bikes without problems. I may have to look at mine an rethink it.

  8. #8
    jl
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    Ah, yes the Kings... I have the same set up with <1mm of space between the rotor and the fork. I'll try and post a picture tomorrow. It is definitely tight. If you remember I posted about this.
    Have you tried any other hubs to see if they exibit the same problems?

    One question what size rotors are you using. I'm using 160s but I think I would have the same problem if I was running 180s...

    I can't believe your LBS can't help you. Bring it to CO and I know of a couple of shops that would work on the problem.

    This problem has nothing to do with the frame. It's the fork and the rotor combination that is the problem. I bet the rear is fine and dandy..

    few suggestions.

    1. put a small washer between the fork and the axle hub and move everthing in. You'll also need a small washer on the brake calipers to move them in also--away from the fork
    2. get someone to 'reface' the rotor
    3. Get some american classic hubs
    4. try smaller rotor?
    5. File down the fork
    6. File down the rotor where it mounts to the hub
    7. face the hub?

    Anyone else with some brilliant ideas--I don't know if these are brilliant or not ...
    We don't need more to be thankful for; we just need to be more thankful.

  9. #9
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    machine shop

    could reduce the rotor flange in a vertical mill, provided there is enough thread left for the rotor bolts

  10. #10
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    Sorry to hear man!

    I take jl's 1 as a quick solution.
    I used a 1mm washer between my Steinbach alu fork and my...KING non-disc hub. spokes rubbed on one fork blade, and just missed the other. Far from ideal, but a 0,5mm might work for you already?
    I only found a spacer that was a bit too tight, so I opened it up a bit (was a "spring spacer") and it fit snug over the axle.

    Otherwise facing the opposite side of the hub could be easiest. No extreme precision needed because of an attached rotor and stuff. Does the King dismantle anough to do that semi by hand with sandpaper or a sander?
    Klok - XC - Skate - Ski

  11. #11
    Witty McWitterson
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    I'll echo jl, go back to the Am. Classics. If they worked, why'd you sell? ohyeah...who am I talking to again?.... I use DT hubs on my WB and the rotor is close, and warped and still not hitting the leg of the fork. I think that this is something that WB/King need to work out. I wonder if there's an issue with the 26" forks too? Not that that really matters...
    Just a regular guy.

  12. #12
    Moderator Moderator
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    One word: EBAY!!!

    Bummer man. That sucks i'd i'd be careful shaving anything off of the fork...
    Front Range Forum Moderator

  13. #13
    Recovering Weight Weenie
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    I don't think it's the hub.

    On my old WB CX-1, the rotor was DANGEROUSLY close to the fork leg, although it never rubbed.

    I think it's a White Brothers issue. Just speculation though.

  14. #14
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    bummer

    My initial thoughts on # 1 quick solution....I added a small spacer to the rotor side becasuse the disc caliper was rubbing spokes (it was a quick fix on a freshly built wheel and I wanted to get out to ride rather than re-dish the wheel). It moved the hub over fine, but the extra non-secure spacer on the axle squeeled like a pig whenever I got on the pedals.

  15. #15
    The Duuude, man...
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    thinking that my resolutions in order will be:
    1) try a super micro washer on the rotor side, one of those super thin ones that has serated edges...

    or

    2) put the WB on the RIG at which time it'll have a bonty front hub in it, and the king hub will be attached to a REBA

    or

    3) fuggit and run V's on the leviathan, heck, it's a race bike anyway...

    or

    4) say the heck with it, sell everything, take up bird watching

    While being very helpful and having positive attitudes, neither King nor WB seems to offer an iron clad solution....but Tim at WB did say he'd ship me a new lower to try out, see if it rubs on there as well....maybe that's a good test...
    Last edited by ncj01; 01-20-2005 at 04:02 PM. Reason: cuase i'm fuggin' tired and sloppy
    FS: Everything

  16. #16
    Recovering couch patato
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    I'm standing here ready with a Powerfile to give that hub a nice rub! Really, taking 0,5mm off the side off a hub, providing it's done right and flat, what harm could be done?
    Klok - XC - Skate - Ski

  17. #17
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    rotor thickness

    Perhaps try finding a thinner rotor? Get the vernier's out and start measuring.
    MTBR is serious stuff.
    You never get better until you get out of your comfort zone.

  18. #18
    Uhhhhh...
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    Quote Originally Posted by jl

    I can't believe your LBS can't help you. Bring it to CO and I know of a couple of shops that would work on the problem.
    Be careful what you talk about without knowing the whole story.

    -TS
    Fayetteville, AR and N.W.A RePrEsEnT

  19. #19
    The Duuude, man...
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSherpa
    Be careful what you talk about without knowing the whole story.

    -TS
    Will, you're funny...

    Confirmed: LBS doesn't have a specific idea on how to correct this issue..which is not surprising, seeing as neither the corporate entity of Chris King nor White Brothers has a solution either.
    FS: Everything

  20. #20
    The Duuude, man...
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheelboy_490
    Perhaps try finding a thinner rotor? Get the vernier's out and start measuring.
    that might help.

    I have to go work on teh farm this weekend at the parents place, but I hope to next week expirament with some other rotors, specifically a smaller diamter, say a 6" to see if I can get any luck...could also shove some other 26" disc wheels in there, see if they work...could help me isolate the problem area: hub or fork...
    FS: Everything

  21. #21
    giddy up!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncj01
    that might help.

    I have to go work on teh farm this weekend at the parents place, but I hope to next week expirament with some other rotors, specifically a smaller diamter, say a 6" to see if I can get any luck...could also shove some other 26" disc wheels in there, see if they work...could help me isolate the problem area: hub or fork...
    Problem area=FORK.

    B
    www.thepathbikeshop.com

  22. #22
    Frame Building Moderator
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    File down the fork a bit.

    Gah! Don't tell RossiXC I said that, but I'd file down the portion of the fork that's rubbing. If it's just a mm or so, you should be ok, though I'm sure you void the warranty if you do it, and furthermore if you break your fork and faceplant, you'll sure feel dumb for taking my advice.

    This is worrying, as I have several customers who have ordered variations on this setup. Keep us posted, eh?

    -Walt

  23. #23
    Recovering Weight Weenie
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    I eyed my MxComp and my WB down the leg w/ the fork mount.
    The MXComp mounting is much nearer the side of the fork while the .8 is almost in the middle of the leg.
    IT'S THE FORK.
    I'm hoping my hubs don't have an issue!

  24. #24
    mtbr member
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    Its not the fork, its the hub.

    Quote Originally Posted by Padre
    I eyed my MxComp and my WB down the leg w/ the fork mount.
    The MXComp mounting is much nearer the side of the fork while the .8 is almost in the middle of the leg.
    IT'S THE FORK.
    I'm hoping my hubs don't have an issue!
    I have had similar problems with ISO hubs/fox forks and hope minis - the rotor would be so much to the left that it would rub against the caliper with no washers used when attaching the caliper to the fork. This is not the case with the universal hubs from king. In fact, I have similar problem with my wb1.0 and king ISO hub, just rubbing is not that bad. I will have my other wheels that use king ss(universal F&R) next week.

  25. #25
    Only dead people are old
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    There is another post with the exact same problem (King/ISO & WB) - he also said he had some similar problems with King/OSO and Fox on a 26"(http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=73554 ). BTW I run Bontrager (Swiss) hubs, WTB Laser Lite (very, very similar to American Classic) hubs and some other really cheap hub and I have plenty of clearance. Sounds like a production error or a compatiblity problem.

  26. #26
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    rotor thickness

    I happened to measure some rotors last week when trying to make multiple wheelsets work;

    Hayes = 1.753mm's

    Avid = 1.855mm's.

    You can't take 1 whole mm out of a rotor and have a useful part.

    If the new lowers from WB dont help,maybe King could plane down the rotor mount.It must be plano-parallel tho,so let King and no one else do it.Plus,if they mess it up,maybe you can get the hub replaced.Wonder if your rotor bolts would then be too long????

    Dan Cas
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  27. #27
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    Whoa! Timely post!

    I'm getting a BW1.0 for my Vulture. I had been thinking about putting together a lightweight front wheel for it, using a King hub ... but now, maybe not.

  28. #28
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    Who knows who is to blame...

    ... but the best solution would be to ask King to face the hub. I would trust their work.

    I run Mavic Speed Citys with WB and the clearance is about 2mm with 185mm Avids.

    That is a bummer... all nice stuff just not playing nice. there is somethign up with the ISO spec or someone is not doing it right.

    Mike

  29. #29

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    I've switched my front wheel out a couple times, always with disc brakes, and when I ran a King in the front the rotor was definitely closer to the fork leg.

    However, my problem wasn't as severe. The rotor just was waaay up against the outside disc pad and I had to get a shop to reface the disc tabs on the fork.

    But, I have a feeling it's either entirely the hub or both the hub and the fork. But, either way the hub is in the mix.

    If you take a mm or 2 off the hub itself, everything should be fine. Just get mini washers and have at it.

  30. #30
    Uhhhhh...
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    Nathan,

    Look at this thread http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=73281; 4th or 5th reply down theres a pic with a fork spacer. It's worth a try and i'm sure we have some spacers down at the shop that size.

    -TS
    Fayetteville, AR and N.W.A RePrEsEnT

  31. #31
    Schipperkes are cool.
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    You beat me to it, but I already have my flame suit on:
    Nate, just like all of your other high dollar rides, which you have never really "rode", just whore'd it off-- "everything is for sale link", take that money and invest into the next gottahave bike.....

    Scoty
    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Better suited to non-aggressive 125# gals named Russell.
    I ride so slow, your Garmin will shut off.

  32. #32
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    king problem

    I have seen this before...the common denominator seems to always be the king hubs

  33. #33
    jl
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSherpa
    Be careful what you talk about without knowing the whole story.

    -TS
    Sherp,

    Fill me in, what part wasn't careful .
    We don't need more to be thankful for; we just need to be more thankful.

  34. #34

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    Indeed, has to be a King problem. If other hubs work on this fork, and these hubs don't work on other forks, I'd say that's pretty conclusive evidence it's the hub that's the problem. The King hubs are not to spec - or at least to a different spec.

    Sam

  35. #35
    mtbr member
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    Here is a Googled link to get you started:

    http://www.birdwatching.com/optics/binoculars1.html

    Seems like alot of possibilities there for a person of you ilk.

    "What birders need
    Birders demand a lot from their binoculars. Birding binoculars must be light enough to carry all day long and sturdy enough to survive years of heavy use. They must be easy to hold steady. They must resolve delicate details and reveal subtle colors with accuracy. They must focus quickly and up close and work well in dim light. They must be sealed from dust and moisture. And they must show the whole picture even for birders wearing eyeglasses."
    A bike by any other name is still a bike.

  36. #36
    Uhhhhh...
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    Quote Originally Posted by jl
    Sherp,

    Fill me in, what part wasn't careful .
    The comment you made about the LBS.

    -TS
    Fayetteville, AR and N.W.A RePrEsEnT

  37. #37
    jl
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSherpa
    The comment you made about the LBS.

    -TS
    Quote Originally Posted by ncj01
    I LBS can't help me
    Quote Originally Posted by jl
    I can't believe your LBS can't help you.
    Now it's obvious--I'll be more careful next time
    We don't need more to be thankful for; we just need to be more thankful.

  38. #38
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    10.4mm ISO

    The distance between the rotor mounting surface and the axle face (outside lock nut) should be 10.4mm for a standard front 100mm QR hub. I'm not sure of the spacing standard of the fork, perhaps Jason/WB knows. My 240s hub has about a 1mm+ clearance between rotor and leg on my WB fork.

  39. #39
    veinte nueve pulgadas
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    I'm Curious...

    How many people out there have a King ISO hub on a WB .8 or a 1.0 with no problems? I'm really curious because I have a WB 1.0 and a King ISO wheel coming my way some time in Feb.

  40. #40
    featherweight clydesdale
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    I have a King ISO / BW .8 combination and King / Mazochhi Air Fork. Both 29"ers have Avid Mech's up front with 185 mm rotors.

    Both setups require running the adjustment slots as far from the hub as you can get. From there I had to file/further enlarge the slot to get the caliper over (away from the hub) just a hair more. Both setups required light filing of the mounting bolts and holes on the edge nearest the rotor to get a little rotation clearance (hey who doesn't want to lighten up Avid Mechs??). This leads me to conclude that the mounting bracket on the fork isn't the issue since both the White and Zoke have similar issues with the same setup. This puts the ball in King's court.

    The rotor on my White Bros is very close to the sliders, but it doesn't rub. However, I'd hate to have a minor fork allignment issue on the trail. My rub issues came from the hub pushing the roter into the caliper and mounting hardware. The Zoke provides more clearance around the slider.

    My feeling is that both White and King are at opposite ends of the ISO specs. King probably figures wider is better because it builds a stronger wheel. White may feel narrow is better and makes a stiffer fork crown.

    I like the idea of the spacer, but I'd want to remove a little material from the opposite side of the axle to prevent unnessary bushing wear.

    Ideally, I'd like to contribute $20 towards a plane ticket and get someone from the think tank at WB and CK in the same room so this problem can go away.

  41. #41
    "the" fashion advisor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fattirewilly
    .......Ideally, I'd like to contribute $20 towards a plane ticket and get someone from the think tank at WB and CK in the same room so this problem can go away.
    I'm in for $20 on that as well, anybody listening?

  42. #42
    ali'i hua
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    Quote Originally Posted by Padre
    I don't think it's the hub.

    On my old WB CX-1, the rotor was DANGEROUSLY close to the fork leg, although it never rubbed.

    I think it's a White Brothers issue. Just speculation though.
    current setup is this way- damn close. im running a hope 180 rotor on my cx-1 and its shockingly close. oh- xt hubs as well.

    edit: maybe the white bro's guy will get on here and notice that there is an issue.
    Last edited by SlowSSer; 01-21-2005 at 10:52 AM.

  43. #43

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    agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by Fattirewilly

    My feeling is that both White and King are at opposite ends of the ISO specs. King probably figures wider is better because it builds a stronger wheel. White may feel narrow is better and makes a stiffer fork crown.
    I agree.

    My experience: King ISO hub / Avid Juicy 185 rotor / WB 0.8 = 1mm clearance
    Hope Bulb / Avid Juicy 185 rotor / WB 0.8 = ~4mm clearance

    I think the King hubs are on the wide end and WB is on the narrow end. I'd try a different hub.

  44. #44
    Let's ride
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    Obviously King and WB problem. It does seem to point at King hubs not totally in spec with ISO standard. Just inferring from the other hubs having a nice 1mm+ margin.

    The simple soln for you is to take whee down to a machinist as stated above and have them take 1mm of the 6 disc mounting tabs. For $20-30 or 1 12pack, some machinist would be kind enough to help you out.

  45. #45
    Who turned out the lights
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fattirewilly

    My feeling is that both White and King are at opposite ends of the ISO specs. King probably figures wider is better because it builds a stronger wheel. White may feel narrow is better and makes a stiffer fork crown.
    I think you've hit the nail on the head. both are probably within ISO specs, but it simply appears that this particular combination is most likely to yield a problem (King + WB = Headache). Seems that the industry (as a whole) may need to tighten down their spec a little bit to avoid this edge-of-the-spectrum conflict.

    Being an enginerd, I personally wouldn't file anything on the fork.

    Being from a DIY family, I'd have the shop unbuild the wheel, and have a good machine shop face 0.5 - 1.0 mm off of the rotor mount on the hub. Be careful not to take too much off, and check your bolt hole depths (may need washers on between rotor and bolt head afterward), but I wouldn't think it would blow the structural integrity of the hub. You might call CK and ask them to give you an 'unofficial' okay to mill this off. They obviously won't tell you to do it 'on the record'.

    I'd be nervous about sanding the disk, b/c I would think Avid used that thickness for a reason (based on other parts of their design).

  46. #46
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    Yeah, definitely DONT sand down the disc. You don't want to lose that thermal mass. it would heat up faster, more prone to warping, and fade quicker. There is a reason for rotors to spec MINIMUM thickness..., bikes or cars.

  47. #47
    www.badgercycles.com
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    Hey Chic what about king universal disc?

    I have a king universal disc hub laced to a delgado sitting in the garage. I think you have a little adjustment with the bolt on disc adaptor. You are welcome to try it out and see if it will solve your problems. Give me a call if you want it and I will get it to you tonight.
    http://www.chrisking.com/hubs/hbs_disc.html

  48. #48
    used to be uno-speedo....
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    It's the King hub. I've had this problem with a Fox fork and a Pace fork on two separate King wheelsets.

    This problem is common with King's hubs although they always state they are within tolerance. Whenever I see this problem 9 times outta 10 a King hub is involved.

    My first solution was a very thin washer to sit between the hub axle and the fork. No problem.

    My second solution was to invest in the Hope disc mount facing tool. Or you can rent the Magura tool from Hammerhead Cycles.

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    Last Post: 12-24-2003, 08:35 AM

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