"The front of that bike can write checks the back can't cash" says the LBS dude...?- Mtbr.com
Results 1 to 36 of 36
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,255

    "The front of that bike can write checks the back can't cash" says the LBS dude...?

    Hi all - though I continue to be certain the bike I have is all the bike I'll ever need, I can't stop daydreaming about something else. So I was back at the LBS checking out the Kona Honzo/Taro twins. 17" Honzo weighs just under 31# if you're curious.

    Anyway, the sales dude was pretty chatty, and we talked about where I ride and "dude the bike you have is exactly perfect"... then he mentions as I wax poetic about the superslack/short CS bikes to be careful, "The front of that bike can write checks the back can't cash".

    These are 120mm (I think) and damn if the Diamondback Mason isn't 160mm ($1200 at REI now). That got me thinking about how these things work in the real world.

    There's got to be major geo changes as the fork compresses, and sure must be quite the shock to have all that plus up front and then a hard tail in the back.

    Any thoughts on that?

    Rode my 110/110 FS (with normal XC geo) today and really didn't find myself wishing for more up front (well maybe a little) and certainly not less out back. And while a little slack would be nice, I had enough trouble getting through some of the tight stuff to not really want a longer wheelbase.

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Captain_America1976's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,286
    I rode a Canfield Nimble 9 with a 120mm fork for about 1.5 years, and a Yelli Screamy with a 140mm fork for about 6 months. Both are a shi*load of fun. They climb like a hardtail, but you can really open it up going down hill. A dropper post does wonders for a bike like this. There is no mistaking that it's a hardtail, but that doesn't mean you can have a blast in the chunky stuff.

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,255
    Curse you! I'm trying my damnedest to not buy something, and here you go.

    The "fun" factor is what really gets me. My FS is fun to ride, climbs well, does small jumps/drops good enough, stable and controllable downhill. But everyone describes these slack HTs as "hella fun" "kick ass" and now "shitload of fun".

    Guess I'll keep lurking at the shop waiting for the sale prices... fingers crossed for nice deep discounts.

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: LyNx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    24,083
    The sales guy was right, if you don't keep your head on and remember it's a HT and you need to ride it as such, you could get yourself in trouble, but honestly they are a boat load of fun. I rode a Paradox with 120mm Minute for 2 years and it just inspired confidence. It's really more about the initial geo for me and I'd rather take a rigid with the right geo like a Paradox or Nimble than an FS with steep geo like older 29ers used to have. My only problem I had with the Paradox was how I felt after 3 hours on it, just used up much more energy than an FS and was beat after a 3+ hour ride, now on the Phantom with 105mm in the back and 120mm upfront, but it has the right angles and I couldn't ask for anything better, absolutely amazing all rounder.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold
    You're doing mtbr wrong, you're supposed to get increasingly offended by the implications that you're doing ANYTHING wrong.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Fix the Spade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,749
    Quote Originally Posted by kyle242gt View Post
    "The front of that bike can write checks the back can't cash"
    That is what I would call a FUD statement. He's just running out some crappy platitude to put doubt in your mind and set you up for a sale of some FS bike.

    Regards long forks on hardtails, from full tavel to full compression is a change of 7degrees on my hardtail with a 140mm fork. But you don't ride at full compression, you ride at sag, so that's 2 degrees off that number already. So a five degree change isn't that massive, certainly less that if you have a bar hump landing on a fs bike with the same travel. I have the fork set up very firm too, so the last 30mm of travel only gets used on crash landings when I need it.

    Riding one fast is very simple, stand up, keep your weight in the middle, avoid the brakes and steer. The rear wheel can do whatever the hell it likes as long you keep control of the front. Issues happen when you brake and that back end hangs up on every little bump, then it will beat the crap out of you until you figure out the technique.

  6. #6
    Cactus Cuddler
    Reputation: tehllama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,814
    It really comes down to technique, especially descending on choppy stuff. There is a lot of merit to that statement, as a good fork and any hardtail are going to struggle to keep stable in places like braking bumps or sections of small choppy rocks - they're absolutely rideable, but it's basically impossible to just plant the rear and ride the brakes to get easily back in control, and that difference becomes apparent really fast as the rider gets tired. Braking early and riding around the possibility of grip limitations when the rear tire is seldom touching the ground are the sort of advice required, but it's not a no-go condition, just somebody from a capable FS rig would have to ride much differently or else get themselves in a spot of bother in cases like those. I'd agree that a dropper post helps a ton too.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,255
    Thanks much you guys. The sales guy was just shooting the breeze with me... since he put the caution warning out while he was admiring how perfect my existing bike was, not figuring he was trying to pull a fast one.

    The comments about choppy stuff are on-point. I ride a lot of pretty serious rock/kibble stuff... I could see a "spot of bother" on a HT no question - that's much of my hesitance. Riding a FS 29er these last couple seasons has made me feel invincible.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,270
    Quote Originally Posted by kyle242gt View Post
    Curse you! I'm trying my damnedest to not buy something, and here you go.

    The "fun" factor is what really gets me. My FS is fun to ride, climbs well, does small jumps/drops good enough, stable and controllable downhill. But everyone describes these slack HTs as "hella fun" "kick ass" and now "shitload of fun".

    Guess I'll keep lurking at the shop waiting for the sale prices... fingers crossed for nice deep discounts.
    yelli screamy frame is $650. Convert all your parts over and sell your old frame.

    key parts to check for size:

    Fork
    rear wheel dropouts
    seat post
    bottom bracket

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,138
    I have a Honzo with a 140mm fork up front. I use all the travel many times during a ride (that's what it's there for) and the change in geometry is no problem at all. It is definitely fun to ride, but it requires better technique and wears me out a lot faster than when I had my WFO9.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,255
    Definitely looking at getting a second bike, not a frame swap, though I appreciate the idea. This all started with my wanting a HT to level the field when I ride with my kids (9 and 12).

    Good heads-up on the tiring aspect of it, hadn't considered that. I generally do 15mi/2K'/2hr rides (+/-). But a huckable chuckable exhausting HT would make those short rides more fun and satisfying.

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Raleighguy29's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    1,188

    "The front of that bike can write checks the back can't cash" says the LBS du...

    I took the home built approach with the long travel hard tail. I took my xc Raleigh talus 29 put a 130 fox float on it and then converted it to single speed. The bike is a blast and so much and flick able. My other bike is a stumpy fsr 29 140 front 130 rear. Both bikes offer a totally different kind of ride and both are just a blast. The hard tail does wear you out faster. My biggest problem with it is keeping my legs loose on the long choppy decents. here it is in versailes.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,255
    Thanks Raleigh-

    Believe me, I've looked at my old Trek 820 and the welding cart next to it and pondered what I could come up with... but as I (barely) think about building a bike, I think I'd be so much better off buying a complete machine.

    All these HT's make me hnnngh. And I think about the cost and how minimal it really is. And then I think I just need to get it on. And then I remember I'm an accountant and old habits die hard.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: LyNx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    24,083
    Um, uh, yeah, NO! While you may have managed to put a 130mm travel fork on a bike designed for a 80-100mm and are probably pushing your physical well being every time you take that thing off a drop, you have in no way managed to get a bike that handles anything like what a Yelli, Paradox, Honzo, Stache do. Those Raleighs have rears like a school bus, 18"+, but you probably don't really notice as much because you ride a SJ FSR, which also has an ass like a school bus. Ride one of the above mention and you'll understand just what nimble and fun really is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighguy29 View Post
    I took the home built approach with the long travel hard tail. I took my xc Raleigh talus 29 put a 130 fox float on it and then converted it to single speed. The bike is a blast and so much and flick able. My other bike is a stumpy fsr 29 140 front 130 rear. Both bikes offer a totally different kind of ride and both are just a blast. The hard tail does wear you out faster. My biggest problem with it is keeping my legs loose on the long choppy decents.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold
    You're doing mtbr wrong, you're supposed to get increasingly offended by the implications that you're doing ANYTHING wrong.

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Raleighguy29's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    1,188

    "The front of that bike can write checks the back can't cash" says the LBS dude...?

    Lynx I've been pondering buying a nimble 9 to build it properly. I know I'm pushing it's limits. But that's part of the fun!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    48
    Quote Originally Posted by kyle242gt View Post
    Curse you! I'm trying my damnedest to not buy something, and here you go.

    The "fun" factor is what really gets me. My FS is fun to ride, climbs well, does small jumps/drops good enough, stable and controllable downhill. But everyone describes these slack HTs as "hella fun" "kick ass" and now "shitload of fun".

    Guess I'll keep lurking at the shop waiting for the sale prices... fingers crossed for nice deep discounts.
    You can get an On-One Parkwood frame for less than 300 shipped or, the whole bike has really nice components for the money. I just built one up using the components from my xc hardtail and I can already tell that the geo is going to make all the difference. The welds look fantastic, the chain stays are short, and the head angle is 68 degrees (slack for hardtail) if you use a 120mm fork. Only one short 3 mile loop on it so far, but I am now beginning to understand where all the hype is coming from about these AM or 'trail' hardtails.

    On-One Parkwood Frame
    roots, rocks, logs, downhills, jumps, drops, chutes, climbs...repeat

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: LyNx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    24,083
    Seriously, if you're enjoying the Raleigh like that, I can't imagine what you'll think of something like all those sweet, slack, AM/Trail HT frames designed to be run with a 120-140mm fork.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raleighguy29 View Post
    Lynx I've been pondering buying a nimble 9 to build it properly. I know I'm pushing it's limits. But that's part of the fun!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold
    You're doing mtbr wrong, you're supposed to get increasingly offended by the implications that you're doing ANYTHING wrong.

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,255
    CRAP. blew out my rear shock today. looks like I'll be out of a bike for a few weeks (at least).

    I have a line on a DB Mason Pro (pinkbike) but am leery of brand prejudice and parts availability.

    LBS has '14 Taros and Honzos at MSRP. A touch early for end of year blowout pricing, even though the '15's are listed on the website. Any sense of a fair offer for those?

    Don't want to be without a bike in primetime. Dammit.

  18. #18
    4 Niners
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    2,124
    They will be selling 20% off in 2 months.
    Full rigid SS, Hardtail SS, Hardtail Geared, Full Suspension Geared.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,255
    Quote Originally Posted by yourdaguy View Post
    They will be selling 20% off in 2 months.
    Good to get some confirmation. Got my Camber Comp 29 for aboot that last year. 20% of $1400 gets me near $1200 OTD which would be fine.

    Sucks like butt to think of missing the meat of NorCal riding season.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    13,366
    Go in with cash and talk to the manager with the price you need, out the door, to get the deal done.
    Don't mention your blown shock.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation: LyNx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    24,083
    Seems like that's a sign that your thinking was right and you should get the bike Looks like there's a Banshee dealer somewhat south of your location near San Rafael, no clue exactly where or how far that is from you, but worth checking out. EB is right about walking in with cash in hand, that changes things a whole lot as they don't have to take credit card fees etc into consideration. I'd have thought it was late enough in the year for those in the northern hemisphere for bike season to almost be over in a few months and as such dealers would be looking to get rid of stock, if not by advertising on the floor, but if you ask about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyle242gt View Post
    CRAP. blew out my rear shock today. looks like I'll be out of a bike for a few weeks (at least).

    I have a line on a DB Mason Pro (pinkbike) but am leery of brand prejudice and parts availability.

    LBS has '14 Taros and Honzos at MSRP. A touch early for end of year blowout pricing, even though the '15's are listed on the website. Any sense of a fair offer for those?

    Don't want to be without a bike in primetime. Dammit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold
    You're doing mtbr wrong, you're supposed to get increasingly offended by the implications that you're doing ANYTHING wrong.

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation: d365's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,232
    You only live once... it's a practical purchase for your enjoyment of life and lifestyle. What's the real cost of new-bike bliss over the long run? It's really pretty cheap for all the hours of enjoyment returned. c'mon, you know you want one. It's the tool you don't have.

  23. #23
    my body breaks the falls
    Reputation: twindaddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    1,440
    Quote Originally Posted by kyle242gt View Post
    a huckable chuckable exhausting HT would make those short rides more fun and satisfying.
    Bingo.
    As a guy with probably too many bikes, what I enjoy most about having options is that I can make the same route completely different each time simply by grabbing a different bike.
    I found a Yelli Screamy frame two years ago on Craigslist for $300. Scooped it up and built a very inexpensive 24 pound trail ripper. Admittedly there are some trails where I don't enjoy it as much as other bikes, but it's been my most frequently ridden bike the past two years.
    $500 million for more irresponsible EBRPD land management? No thanks.
    www.noonmeasureww.org

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,255
    Dropped my shock off for service, asked about discounts on the Taro, was told not yet.

    The '15s are coming soon, and are 1x10 and narrow/wide, both upgrades over the '14. But the '14 is brown, which is so damn cool in a world of boring silver/black/white.

  25. #25
    well mannered lout
    Reputation: MOJO K's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,446
    Re: geometry change

    When the fork compresses, the wheel moves up and over the obstacle. The front of the bike doesn't actually drop. ( over simplified, flame away...just a more realistic way to visualize it)
    Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,255
    Went back today, said I was ready to buy cash, got 10% off.

    Fun ride, can't wait to get more time on it.


  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation: LyNx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    24,083
    LOL, just couldn't hold out, that's great Will definitely add some versatility to your riding being able to choose the bike to suit the ride you intend to do. After you've had a few rides and tweeked and fiddle, don't forget to report back.
    Quote Originally Posted by kyle242gt View Post
    Went back today, said I was ready to buy cash, got 10% off.

    Fun ride, can't wait to get more time on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold
    You're doing mtbr wrong, you're supposed to get increasingly offended by the implications that you're doing ANYTHING wrong.

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,255
    The thought of waiting another month or two for maybe another couple hundred bucks was starting to feel silly, especially if they sold out and left me on a boring looking 2015.

    Having my FS down on a three-day weekend was the last straw.

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,255
    Update... now have several rides in. Some smooth singletrack, some technical singletrack, a lot of rocky climbing and technical descents, a little bit of air too.

    I LOVE IT.

    It's a perfect stablemate to my FS bike (which I still really truly adore even as I plot replacing it with something more aggressive). On that, I just sit and spin my way up and bulldoze my way down. On the Taro, I have to really work on the climb (going to a 30T front which should help) and think about the line on the way down.

    Fix the Spade was spot on with the technique. Still working up to it, but I can tell there's a tipping point where everything just comes together and works right. Just have to have the balls to point and shoot. And as the speed increases, the look-ahead increases, and round it goes.

    Thanks again to all who assisted in this and my other threads on the subject.

    And to anyone pondering the AM hardtail thing, go for it.
    2016 SC 5010
    2017 Norco Torrent
    2014 Giant Trance (the boy's)
    2014 Kona Process 134a (the other boy's)

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    355
    I'm interested in the concept of the front writing checks the back can't cash. I'm wondering, is there a point at which people feel there's a balance?

    I ride an XC hardtail and have been wanting to move into something more trail or AM, but definitely hardtail and not really high end. Been contemplating 29+, G2 geometry, and various AM hardtail frames.

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,255
    Quote Originally Posted by BATRG3 View Post
    I'm wondering, is there a point at which people feel there's a balance?
    By balance, do you mean technique in riding it? Or do you mean spec of the bike?
    Here's the post that I thought described it well:
    Quote Originally Posted by Fix the Spade View Post
    Riding one fast is very simple, stand up, keep your weight in the middle, avoid the brakes and steer. The rear wheel can do whatever the hell it likes as long you keep control of the front. Issues happen when you brake and that back end hangs up on every little bump, then it will beat the crap out of you until you figure out the technique.
    I'm faster going down on this than my FS in a lot of sections for the simple reason that I have to be. Getting up to a speed that I'm slacked out but can basically ignore the rear tire takes guts. This is on terrain that's not really all that steep but full of 1'-2' rocks.

    Quote Originally Posted by BATRG3 View Post
    I ride an XC hardtail and have been wanting to move into something more trail or AM, but definitely hardtail and not really high end. Been contemplating 29+, G2 geometry, and various AM hardtail frames.
    You're in luck! There are lots of options in the AM hardtail category. Like anything else a bit unusual, you're not likely to find it used, and a lot of major manufacturers don't have anything yet. The Taro was the least expensive offering, though the Jamis Dragon Sport (650b, shhh!) is very similar.
    2016 SC 5010
    2017 Norco Torrent
    2014 Giant Trance (the boy's)
    2014 Kona Process 134a (the other boy's)

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,678
    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    Re: geometry change

    When the fork compresses, the wheel moves up and over the obstacle. The front of the bike doesn't actually drop. ( over simplified, flame away...just a more realistic way to visualize it)
    Depends on situation. Simply rolling along yes, apply force to the front brake and it dives.

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    326
    In terms of the geometry change, I run a 150mm sektor coil fork on my 26" hardtail, and you do notice a difference when your in the last little bit of its travel, if im in a big rock garden or something with repeated hits, especially while braking, and it has a chance to stay compressed for a second or two, you feel the front end get hung up quite a bit easier than when you encounter one or just a couple hits. I actually liked the fork before it was completely broken in and almost never bottomed, there as a ton of support in the last bit of travel so it kept the front somewhat high and only bottomed if it you absolutely needed the travel. Its super supple initially now but im using all the travel pretty regularly, and thats on a spring thats technically on the stiff end for me.

    I feel as fast on my hardtail on a lot of the downs as i do on my 6" AM bike with coil shock, 36 fork, burly stuff etc.. its only when you get into long rough sections where the rigid rear slows you down, it just gets way too sketchy to try and carry big speed through rock gardens, its fun and scary as hell to see how fast you can go, but it always feels like your about to just completely loose it in a big way. smoother flowy downhill trails are where the hardtail shines, when its just bumpy enough to keep it interesting, but not to the point where its bucking the rear around.

    If I were to do it again and build a AM/freeridey hardtail, id go with a 27.5 or 29er for sure. the 26" is the best thing ever on the right trails, but a 29er with big tires would be so much nicer in rock gardens and probably get hung up much less. it would just add to the already great versatility.

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,255
    Quote Originally Posted by mrsa101 View Post
    ...it just gets way too sketchy to try and carry big speed through rock gardens, its fun and scary as hell to see how fast you can go, but it always feels like your about to just completely loose it in a big way.
    Bingo.
    2016 SC 5010
    2017 Norco Torrent
    2014 Giant Trance (the boy's)
    2014 Kona Process 134a (the other boy's)

  35. #35
    well mannered lout
    Reputation: MOJO K's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,446
    Quote Originally Posted by Saddle Up View Post
    Depends on situation. Simply rolling along yes, apply force to the front brake and it dives.
    True, but the brake-dive effect on a HT is actually less pronounced than it is on many FS bikes as the rear end doesn't jack up at the same time.
    Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    471
    Good call on the bike. My Honzo is absolutely the most fun bicycle I've ever ridden, and I have no plans to ever get rid of it. In my riding, it's the perfect compliment to a long travel all mountain full suspension.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 11-21-2014, 08:45 AM
  2. Replies: 41
    Last Post: 01-22-2014, 06:44 PM
  3. Help write the "OC Horror Story" Volume One
    By Hawgzilla in forum Off Camber (off topic)
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 10-02-2013, 07:13 PM
  4. Write this name down: "Anton Cooper"
    By HardTail29er in forum 29er Bikes
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 01-24-2012, 12:15 PM
  5. What helmet is the dude in the "Pedal-Driven" movie trailer wearing?
    By checkpoint22 in forum Apparel and Protection
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-17-2011, 07:07 PM

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2020 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.