First set of CHEAP tires...- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    First set of CHEAP tires...

    So my build is quickly coming together and I am looking at a first pair of cheap tires just to get myself rolling, then move to something better once I start riding more.
    I have been looking around and was wondering what the real difference is between these two tires..
    CST Caballero 29x2.25
    Maxxis Ignitor 29x2.1
    From what I read, both get great reviews with the CSTs being slightly heavier (705 v. 825). I am not a weight weinie to that does not necessarily concern me and the tread patterns look very similar. Just wondering if anyone has experience with both tires, or what the verdict is on a cheap (Ignitor can be found for $25/ea, Cabs can bet found for $15-$20/ea).

    These will be more than likely setup as ghetto tubeless on Sun Ringle EQ27s with M629 hubs from Universal Cycles.

  2. #2
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    I guess another question for you guys is what Rims you would recommend. I am 6' 195# (over 200# with equipment) and ride mostly single track and trail. No major jumps, nothing more than like 12", but do occasionally take a short staircase (when riding around town with the wife and sister-in-law).
    Was looking at the following:
    WTB LaserDisc Trail
    WTB Dual Duty XC
    Sun Ringle EQ27
    Velocity P-35 (would be the most expensive ones I could afford)
    Again, looking to have these built by Universal with the M629 hubs, DT Swiss Champoin spokes.

  3. #3
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    Save a little $$ and go with the WTB SpeedDisc AM 29er rims...very similar to the LaserDisc Trail but cheaper. They work very well ghetto tubeless.

  4. #4
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    The Caballero is a decent tire. I ran one most of this summer, and know people in less snowy areas that run them through the winter. Good traction, a little slow rolling, probably about the same actual size as the Ignitor.

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    mtnbiker72 - any particular reason to go for the SpeedDisc AM over the Dual Duty? Both are about the same price with the SpeedDisc being slightly wider? Cost comes out to ~$215 for the Dual Duty, SpeedDisc, and/or EQ27 with the LaserDisc only being about $5 more.

    Thanks for the info Sean. Yeah I have heard they are not bad tires just not well known because they are from CST. From looking at them they look to be almost identical tread to the Ignitor and if they are about the same size that is fine. They should do great around here during regular riding season as most of the trails will be single track with loose over hardpack, rocks, roots, and the occasional sandy area.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash
    mtnbiker72 - any particular reason to go for the SpeedDisc AM over the Dual Duty? Both are about the same price with the SpeedDisc being slightly wider? Cost comes out to ~$215 for the Dual Duty, SpeedDisc, and/or EQ27 with the LaserDisc only being about $5 more.

    Thanks for the info Sean. Yeah I have heard they are not bad tires just not well known because they are from CST. From looking at them they look to be almost identical tread to the Ignitor and if they are about the same size that is fine. They should do great around here during regular riding season as most of the trails will be single track with loose over hardpack, rocks, roots, and the occasional sandy area.
    fwiw, Maxxis is just a brand name belonging to CST. The tires are built with different levels of materials and construction, hence the Caballero being cheaper (esp compared to the regular retail price of the Ignitor, but it's good to know they aren't coming from an inexperienced company

    As for the rims, the Dual Duty XC is a good bit narrower than the SpeedDisc AM, LaserDisc Trail or EQ27 (which are all similar size to each other), enough to matter in my opinion so I wouldn't just dismiss it as "slightly". In fact, WTB only quotes the outside widths of their rims, but the inside width of the rim is what matters more and the difference between the Dual Duty and the others is probably even larger in this regards because the sidewalls of that rim are thicker for rim braking. The SpeedDisc and LaserDisc are built stronger too

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash
    mtnbiker72 - any particular reason to go for the SpeedDisc AM over the Dual Duty? Both are about the same price with the SpeedDisc being slightly wider? Cost comes out to ~$215 for the Dual Duty, SpeedDisc, and/or EQ27 with the LaserDisc only being about $5 more.
    The extra width makes a difference, and the SpeedDisc AM's are $18 cheaper than the LaserDisc Trail (similar width) so it should be $36 cheaper.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    The extra width makes a difference, and the SpeedDisc AM's are $18 cheaper than the LaserDisc Trail (similar width) so it should be $36 cheaper.
    Universal's wheel builder tool applies special pricing to some rims and hubs, different than the prices in their online store, and it can even depend on the color, number of holes, etc. I've noticed some combinations of parts ended up cheaper than I expected, sometimes cheaper that lower lever parts

  9. #9
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    Ok thanks for the info guys. So internal width of the rim is what really matter. Now I understand why they are called "DualDuty!"

    So the next question. I see the SpeedDisc AM are about 30g heavier than the SpeedDisc XC. Are there any real reasons I should go with one over the other?

    And don't know where you are getting the pricing mtnbiker72 but using the wheelbuilder and picking the items the LaserDisc Trail come in at $219.05 and the SpeedDisc AM come in at $214.01.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash
    So the next question. I see the SpeedDisc AM are about 30g heavier than the SpeedDisc XC. Are there any real reasons I should go with one over the other?
    same factor to weigh: width. I don't know the difference off the top of my head, but the AM model is the same as the XC model just a couple mm wider

  11. #11
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    I own both (SpeedDisc AM and XC) and the AM is a more durable rim (I'm 225lbs BTW) plus the tire is more stable and has a wider footprint on the AM rim. Bit if it's only a $5 difference for the complete wheelset then you might as well get the LaserDisc Trail rims. I was using the prices of the individual rims at Universal Cycles.

  12. #12
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    Ah ok, that is what I figured. Don't know if they are having a sale or whatever but the difference is only $5. Hopefully that will stick around for awhile until I can afford the wheelset, if not then I will just go with the SpeedDisc AM.
    Thanks for the help with the wheel questions.

    Keep info coming on the tires too!!

  13. #13
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    Be sure to keep your eyes on Ebay as well. Many manufacturers spec similar WTB wheelsets as their OEM parts. Often people will take the wheels AND tires off and throw them on Ebay to cover the cost of their new setups. You might be able to spend $75-100 and get a new wheelset with tires.
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  14. #14
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    Where are you finding the Cabs?
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  15. #15
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    Well... depends on how you ride. I'm 215# and almost never tweak a rim... and I ride techy trails. Guess I just ride lightly. I have a bud who is 10 pounds lighter than me, and rides the same stuff. He tweaks rims all the time.

    I've had good luck with WTB Laserdisc XCs.

    Recently, MikeSee hooked me up with some NOS Bontrager Maverick(similar to Mustang) rims on an XT rear hub for a very good price. I only have one ride on it, but it feels good... feels pretty stiff. I've had Bontrager Mustang 26er wheels, and they held up really well.

    I priced out a wheel on the universalcycles.com wheelbuilder app, but IMO they charge way too much for shipping.

    Go check out lacemine29.com and he'll hook you up. Tell him what you are after, and he'll make some good recomendations. He told me to stay away from WTB rims, because he has seen a lot of failures, and they don't build up very evenly.

  16. #16
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    Has anyone tried any of the origin 8 tires? This one looks pretty good to me. http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Agit-8e...048700&sr=1-43

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by o0obruceleeo0o
    Has anyone tried any of the origin 8 tires? This one looks pretty good to me. http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Agit-8e...048700&sr=1-43
    A pretty good review on Twentynineinches

  18. #18
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    I have found the Cabs on Amazon from Niagra Cycles for $15/ea...

    Pimpbot - I have actually emailed back and forth with Mike. Unfortunately, I do not have a lot of money to spend on the wheels and best he could do for what I would need was around $400. As I am just starting out and trying to make this a "budget" build I cannot rightfully justify the cost. The cost of the WTB at $220 (plus the $40 for shipping) is much better for my wallet. If I begin to tweak the rims, then I will definitely talk to mike again and have him make me something.

    I was actually reading that the Origin 8 are the same thing as the Duro Miners. Duro is kind of like CST, main manufacturer for larger companies that want to put out their own product.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash
    I have found the Cabs on Amazon from Niagra Cycles for $15/ea...

    Pimpbot - I have actually emailed back and forth with Mike. Unfortunately, I do not have a lot of money to spend on the wheels and best he could do for what I would need was around $400. As I am just starting out and trying to make this a "budget" build I cannot rightfully justify the cost. The cost of the WTB at $220 (plus the $40 for shipping) is much better for my wallet. If I begin to tweak the rims, then I will definitely talk to mike again and have him make me something.

    I was actually reading that the Origin 8 are the same thing as the Duro Miners. Duro is kind of like CST, main manufacturer for larger companies that want to put out their own product.
    pm orion_cycles or email him at [email protected]. I've run a few quotes by him in the past and he wasn't afraid to work with budget components and his pricing was very good

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash
    So my build is quickly coming together and I am looking at a first pair of cheap tires just to get myself rolling, then move to something better once I start riding more.
    I have been looking around and was wondering what the real difference is between these two tires..
    CST Caballero 29x2.25
    Maxxis Ignitor 29x2.1
    From what I read, both get great reviews with the CSTs being slightly heavier (705 v. 825). I am not a weight weinie to that does not necessarily concern me and the tread patterns look very similar. Just wondering if anyone has experience with both tires, or what the verdict is on a cheap (Ignitor can be found for $25/ea, Cabs can bet found for $15-$20/ea).

    These will be more than likely setup as ghetto tubeless on Sun Ringle EQ27s with M629 hubs from Universal Cycles.
    Love the ignitor for our trails. Like you say, cheap, but good grip and do the job well. I use it ont he front, crossmark onthe back. Both seal up and hold well ghetto on my VXC's

  21. #21
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    Ok so planning on ordering these next month (wife is picking up the cost as my Valentines' Day/ Anniversary gift) so the question becomes....
    Which Set should I get the EQ27, LaserDisc Trail, or new contendor TN719. The first two are about the same for everything (price wise as well). However, the TN719 is 60g lighter per wheel but about $15 more expensive all together. Is the weight difference enough that I would notice it? I know a number of people that swear by Mavic (including my brother) and say that they are basically bombproof.

    So here is the spec out I am looking at for the wheels:
    Rims: LaserDisc Trail (595g per rim) or EQ27 (545g per rim)
    Spokes: DT Swiss Champion
    Nipples: DT Swiss Alloy
    Front Hub: Shimano M629
    Rear Hub: Shimano M629
    Cost: ~$215

    Or
    Rims: Mavic TN719 (510g per rim)
    Spokes: DT Swiss Champion
    Nipples: DT Swiss Alloy
    Front Hub: Shimano M629
    Rear Hub: Shimano M629
    Cost: ~$234

  22. #22
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    Go with EQ27 rims, Champion spokes, and get the brass nipples, not alloy. Brass nipples are much more reliable.

  23. #23
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    Ok for the brass nipples, do I just go with the standard 12mm or should I pay the extra for th 16mm UST?
    And switching to brass knocks off a few extra bucks too!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash
    mtnbiker72 - any particular reason to go for the SpeedDisc AM over the Dual Duty? Both are about the same price with the SpeedDisc being slightly wider? Cost comes out to ~$215 for the Dual Duty, SpeedDisc, and/or EQ27 with the LaserDisc only being about $5 more.

    Thanks for the info Sean. Yeah I have heard they are not bad tires just not well known because they are from CST. From looking at them they look to be almost identical tread to the Ignitor and if they are about the same size that is fine. They should do great around here during regular riding season as most of the trails will be single track with loose over hardpack, rocks, roots, and the occasional sandy area.
    If you know this already, please excuse me. But, the caballero and ignitor look similar because they're both made by CST. CST owns Maxxis. The biggest difference is wire vs folding bead which is why there is a difference in weight.

    The cab's work fine. I tried them out for a little a while back. If you're not worried about weight go for it.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash
    Ok for the brass nipples, do I just go with the standard 12mm or should I pay the extra for th 16mm UST?
    And switching to brass knocks off a few extra bucks too!
    12mm is what you need. 16mm nipples are not necessary unless you have a UST rim and don't really gain you anything with a normal rim.

  26. #26
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    Cool! ok so that brings me down to $210 for the build (minus shipping which is like $40). Still that is not bad for this kit from what I gather. Only thing I have been able to find that is around the same price would be this TN719/XT 756 combo from Pricepoint or picking up this Blunt/XT 756 combo from Rocky Mountain Cycles on ebay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash
    Cool! ok so that brings me down to $210 for the build (minus shipping which is like $40). Still that is not bad for this kit from what I gather. Only thing I have been able to find that is around the same price would be this TN719/XT 756 combo from Pricepoint or picking up this Blunt/XT 756 combo from Rocky Mountain Cycles on ebay.
    +1 on the Velocity Blunt rims with XT hubs from RMC on eBay.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by hsakkire
    If you know this already, please excuse me. But, the caballero and ignitor look similar because they're both made by CST. CST owns Maxxis. The biggest difference is wire vs folding bead which is why there is a difference in weight.

    The cab's work fine. I tried them out for a little a while back. If you're not worried about weight go for it.

    The Cab actually comes in a 60 tpi folding bead (that's the one which weighs 825g) per the CST site. Also says the folding bead tires have a EPS puncture protection and dual Collins rubber which is probably where the weight comes from. The wire bead is a claimed 925g which is close to what my proto version was.

    They roll a little on the slow side but not really worse than the ignitor. They worked well tubeless on Flow and Arch rims. Durability was good as was overall traction. IMO they are a solid choice if you are on a budget.

  29. #29
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    well just got a pm from Orion_Cycles regarding my inquire and he is offering me a pretty good deal for a wheelset (at least I think) about $300 for M629 hubs and Stans Arch or Flow rims. Built up the same thing through Universal and he is about $25 cheaper minus shipping. Anyways, I am talking to him about it. So is the extra $50 or so, worth the upgrade to Stan's rims?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash
    So is the extra $50 or so, worth the upgrade to Stan's rims?
    If you plan on going tubeless, yes.

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    Everything that I read about the TN719/LaserDisc Trail/EQ27 all state they setup tubeless just fine. I am not really into it if the extra $50 is just because they are "tubeless" specific rims. That really isnt worth it to me.

    Ok, maybe I need to state what I am looking for in the wheelset. I have a budget of about $300 max for the set, however I do not need the absolute best at this point in time. I am looking for a wheelset that is not going to be an anchor but will still be durable, reasonably light, and something that will last me for at least a few years. I figure if I really get into this I will be upgrading my bike in that time frame but I am like my brother who still has all three of his mtn bikes since he bought his first Giant back in college (try 15yrs ago) and is planning on rebuilding it now as a single speed. I do not go through things quickly but look for the best "bang for the buck" in whatever I get. Everyone raves about how good Stan's rims are but at this point in time is the $300 price tag (~$50 than the sets I was looking at above) really give me that much of a return on my investment?

    With that said, the specs of the Flow are similar to that of the TN719 and EQ27 and the $50 could be put into something else. But if the money is better spent on the Stan's then I will go with them. I mainly ride High Desert trails (translation: lots of loose over hardpack, sand, rocks, roots, thorns, etc) but will also be riding in the mountains as I live less than 30 minutes from the nearest trailhead in Lake Tahoe, California (with the ability to connect to it from two trails that are 2 miles from my doorstep.) So I will need variety, there will be rock impact and scrape with some drops from roots, hopping over stumps etc. Maybe all this will help?!
    Last edited by gregnash; 01-04-2011 at 12:27 PM.

  32. #32
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    If it's only $50 to get the Flow then I'd do it especially if you want to run standard tires tubeless.

  33. #33
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    Yes, other rims work tubeless too, but the Arches and Flows will need less tricks and hacks to do the same thing and should be more reliable too. For example, I've tried a couple of the tubeless conversion methods on my Laserdisc rim and they all got my non-tubeless tires sealed and inflated once I applied the right tricks, but they also all burped to varying degrees when I ran low pressure on rocky trails (I weight ~195). If tubeless is your goal I would go for the Stan's rims

  34. #34
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    Boomn - You probably ride trails that I will end up hitting because I have buddies that live in the Sac/Roseville/Auburn area that I will be riding with. From what I gather I am same size/weight as you are and tubeless will eventually be my goal purely because of the large chance of getting thorns in my area. Looks like the $50 is worth the extra expenditure then?

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash
    Boomn - You probably ride trails that I will end up hitting because I have buddies that live in the Sac/Roseville/Auburn area that I will be riding with. From what I gather I am same size/weight as you are and tubeless will eventually be my goal purely because of the large chance of getting thorns in my area. Looks like the $50 is worth the extra expenditure then?
    From a headache free tubeless experience, yes, go with the Stan's Flow rims update.

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    Thanks for the suggestion everyone. Well looks like I will be going with the wheels from Orion then as talking with him he makes it pretty clear that anything else I would eventually torture. The Flows are probably going to be my best bet (extra width and stiffness) and the tubeless setup will be a cinch when I do move tubeless. Hopefully the Halo Choir Master 29ers that BikeNY sent me will setup tubeless easily!

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    Got home and the Choir Masters were waiting on the doorstep begging to be taken out of the cold! Looked them both over and you can barely tell the one has been used more than the other. When talking with BikeNY I figured one was just about shot and the other was in good condition, both seem to be in great condition and from the reviews I have read online, they are a great tire!

    <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/gfisicaro/5329571586/" title="Untitled by renofizz, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm6.static.flickr.com/5162/5329571586_acc51c7bac.jpg" width="374" height="500" alt="" /></a>

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    Go with EQ27 rims, Champion spokes, and get the brass nipples, not alloy. Brass nipples are much more reliable.
    ---
    Following this thread with interest, as I'm looking at rims to build a budget/durable 29er SS wheels. Am a 210# rider, not racer, of mostly smooth single-track with typical eastern roots/rocks that keep one's speed in check on a rigid. Only run big volume tires, and enjoy the way they seat, and work on wider rims.

    Please help me out here. Stans Flows seems the go to favorite of the forums, especially for tubeless users, yet notubes is clear that they are not UST rims. What I've heard nobody mention is that Stans are produced by Sun Ringle. Check the new Sun Charger wheel-sets.

    http://www.sun-ringle.com/product-va...lsets/charger/

    When looking at the EQ27 vs. Flow the interior shape does not appear much different. Not talking internal ribbing, or eyelets.
    EQ27: 27/18 Flow: 28/18.6
    Have had the best luck with welded seams and eyelets, which allow me to both add more even tension, and run alloy nips w/o breakage. Wondering if there's a problem with the EQ27's, because to me they appear one of the better choices.
    If I'm missing something here, and you know otherwise - please advise.
    Thanks,

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyin'W
    ---
    Following this thread with interest, as I'm looking at rims to build a budget/durable 29er SS wheels. Am a 210# rider, not racer, of mostly smooth single-track with typical eastern roots/rocks that keep one's speed in check on a rigid. Only run big volume tires, and enjoy the way they seat, and work on wider rims.

    Please help me out here. Stans Flows seems the go to favorite of the forums, especially for tubeless users, yet notubes is clear that they are not UST rims. What I've heard nobody mention is that Stans are produced by Sun Ringle. Check the new Sun Charger wheel-sets.

    http://www.sun-ringle.com/product-va...lsets/charger/

    When looking at the EQ27 vs. Flow the interior shape does not appear much different. Not talking internal ribbing, or eyelets.
    EQ27: 27/18 Flow: 28/18.6
    Have had the best luck with welded seams and eyelets, which allow me to both add more even tension, and run alloy nips w/o breakage. Wondering if there's a problem with the EQ27's, because to me they appear one of the better choices.
    If I'm missing something here, and you know otherwise - please advise.
    Thanks,
    The Flow may not be a UST rim but it does have some design features intended to make tubeless setup with standard tires simpler and more reliable. The EQ27 does not have these same features, even if they look fairly similar

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    ^^^ This is why Stan's can charge $90 per rim and the EQ27 can be found for about $50. I ended up working out a deal with one of the builders on the forums here and will be getting a pair of Stan's Flow/M629 hubs/DT Swiss Competition Spokes/Brass Nipps. All this because of my weight (right about 200#) and my riding style. Can't wait to get them!!!

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