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  1. #1
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    Fezzari's new 29er Signal Peak high anti squat numbers: marketing or real-deal?

    The marketing speak from Fezzari mentions "high anti squat numbers". Isn't the Signal Peak a Horst Link which aren't as capable of climbers as mini/twin links: Fezzari Signal Peak bridges XC-trail gap - Mtbr.com

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    It's a pretty good looking bike. Well spec'd and priced.

    Horst link not being a capable climber? That's a mantra uttered by the bike industry to hurt Specialized. Have you ever heard, man my Epic climbs like sh!t. It really comes down to the tune of the shock and setup. So many people have little to no clue on how to setup their suspension up correctly.

    Also I have never been is race where I didn't lock my rear shock out on the long sustained climbs.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    It's a pretty good looking bike. Well spec'd and priced.

    Horst link not being a capable climber? That's a mantra uttered by the bike industry to hurt Specialized. Have you ever heard, man my Epic climbs like sh!t. It really comes down to the tune of the shock and setup. So many people have little to no clue on how to setup their suspension up correctly.

    Also I have never been is race where I didn't lock my rear shock out on the long sustained climbs.
    Doesn't an Epic usually have the infamous Brain? I'm talking the likes of a Rocky Mountain Element which has low anti squat and is not among the better climbers even in short travel.

    How does Fezzari market their Horst as having a lot of anti-squat? Is it the Evol DPS doing most of the work?

    Hoping Linkage Design does a writeup.

  4. #4
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    The following comments are simply FYI. I have a Horst Link bike (Guerrilla Gravity Trail Pistol) that climbs very well. I never lock my suspension out. Never. I wouldn't consider owning a frame that required a lockout to climb well. Multi-thousand foot pitches are common on my local trails and I prefer to earn my descents. If Horst Link bikes don't climb well, I'm out of the loop.
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  5. #5
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    Everybody thinks their bike climbs well, and they all can, but if the design doesn't have reasonable anti-squat, a bike will never feel like a snappy climber without a fair amount of lever flipping (or Brain assist).

    There are tradeoffs to everything. A mini link bike is wonderful since it firms up when you're on the power, then softens up when coasting. The tradeoff is that no mini link bike is as stiff when you are really throttling it, because, well, that lower link attachment via two points and a cast piece of something or other just isn't as good of an attachment as a single pivot.

    And then the mini link bike firming under power isn't always great for climbing tech stuff, because they can stiffen up too much.

    Sorry. Long diatribe. In any event, the Fezzari does look interesting. I love a 120 x 120 bike. It makes me miss my old, shorter travel Fuel EX, even though the new one is noticeably better in the chunk!

    I think we'll be seeing a lot of new bikes that are kind of designed around the new Fox 32 Step Cast fork, and that's a good thing, IMO!
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  6. #6
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    Their previous effort was about as bad as it can get, so relatively, I'm sure the new one has "high" AS numbers:Linkage Design: Fezzari Bikes

    The question though is does it have a steeply-falling AS slope/curve. This is where I find a problem occurs, as the engineers tend to think more of a "static" situation, where the bike stays at the sag point, but going over bumps, especially in steep technical sections, the suspension will be compressed further, where there is usually less than the 100% that Specialized and other horst-link manufacturers are now using (by starting off around 120-130%). Because of variances in packs, body weight, bumps, and other factors, I find this still tends to suffer from some significant "bog" on the steep stuff, unweighted the front end and increasing the amount of wasted power in the most critical situations.

    But, there ARE manufacturers that have figured out how to flatten the curve WITH horst-link bikes, so it is entirely possible that Fezarri has done this. This is also the general trend we see from the likes of yeti, intense, santa cruz, canfieid, and even many single-pivot bikes. It also shows you that a single pivot can do this stuff just as well, but taking that aside, it is possible they have significantly improved the horst link.

    It doesn't take a DW or "mini-link" bike to have a relatively flat AS profile that pedals well. There are some slight tweaks that such bikes can provide, but the cannondale scalpel, even the new specialized non-horst epic, devinci, and others do this with single-pivots.

    Of course, one more possibility is some catastrophically high AS number coupled with the severely falling curve, starting with say 150% or more and ending up at maybe 100% halfway through the travel, which WOULD pedal well, but also have significantly suspension interaction with pedaling.

    Until you have a good analysis of their numbers, it's impossible to tell anything from these modern "bike reviews". They just always say everything is great, rowdy, etc..
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by westin View Post
    Doesn't an Epic usually have the infamous Brain? I'm talking the likes of a Rocky Mountain Element which has low anti squat and is not among the better climbers even in short travel
    Rocky Mountain, and Specialized for that matter, have been revising their horst link bikes with more AS and somewhat flatter AS profiles, over recent years.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Their previous effort was about as bad as it can get, so relatively, I'm sure the new one has "high" AS numbers:Linkage Design: Fezzari Bikes

    The question though is does it have a steeply-falling AS slope/curve. This is where I find a problem occurs, as the engineers tend to think more of a "static" situation, where the bike stays at the sag point, but going over bumps, especially in steep technical sections, the suspension will be compressed further, where there is usually less than the 100% that Specialized and other horst-link manufacturers are now using (by starting off around 120-130%). Because of variances in packs, body weight, bumps, and other factors, I find this still tends to suffer from some significant "bog" on the steep stuff, unweighted the front end and increasing the amount of wasted power in the most critical situations.

    But, there ARE manufacturers that have figured out how to flatten the curve WITH horst-link bikes, so it is entirely possible that Fezarri has done this. This is also the general trend we see from the likes of yeti, intense, santa cruz, canfieid, and even many single-pivot bikes. It also shows you that a single pivot can do this stuff just as well, but taking that aside, it is possible they have significantly improved the horst link.

    It doesn't take a DW or "mini-link" bike to have a relatively flat AS profile that pedals well. There are some slight tweaks that such bikes can provide, but the cannondale scalpel, even the new specialized non-horst epic, devinci, and others do this with single-pivots.

    Of course, one more possibility is some catastrophically high AS number coupled with the severely falling curve, starting with say 150% or more and ending up at maybe 100% halfway through the travel, which WOULD pedal well, but also have significantly suspension interaction with pedaling.

    Until you have a good analysis of their numbers, it's impossible to tell anything from these modern "bike reviews". They just always say everything is great, rowdy, etc..
    As usual, great input. Fezzari does have a 30 day return which is nice. But, on a sidenote, Fezzari has got to be one of the most alienating bike names today. I digress.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo View Post
    Everybody thinks their bike climbs well
    They do? Honestly I had no idea.
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  10. #10
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    Well my 2018 Epic with single pivot and the new 2.0 Brain climbs much better than my 2013 Santa Cruz 5010 VPP even with new Fox DPS shock. The Epic is just so much more efficient pedaling it i silly.

    That said my definition of climbing not like everyone else. Being a HT rider and single speeder I value getting every last ounce of power from the pedals to the rear wheel. I hate any lost power transfer. My 5010 will climb things, but never as fast or efficiently. The more rocky the climb the smoother it climbs, but when you get both step and rocky given my style I don't like not getting every watt of power to the rear tire. I can mange traction reasonably well even on a HT. Now not everyone climbs like that and may value different things when climbing.

    Now back on topic. Will a horst link with no brain climb well? Maybe. Depends on what the design was optimized for. It says it was design to "get to the top first" but also says "plush ride". Can you do both? I think these bikes need back to back reviews to really determine. I would love someone do a real back to back to back test of new crop of 100-120 mm XC/Trail bikes. These bikes that are supposed to be XC race winners, but also fantastic trail bikes. My guess is that they are not all the same. Side by side you can tell which bike are better at certain things and then a prospective buyer can really compare them. Bike Magazine's Bible of Bike test is step in this direction, but are they going to focus on this XC Race/XC/Trail segment or just on big travel stuff they have been?
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Bike Magazine's Bible of Bike test is step in this direction, but are they going to focus on this XC Race/XC/Trail segment or just on big travel stuff they have been?
    Has Bike's Bible ever written a bad word? Every bike is a winner.
    I believe their "short travel" category has focused on the likes of Kona Hei Hei and the new Element 29er. But that was last year and the term "down country" didn't exist, haha.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by westin View Post
    Has Bike's Bible ever written a bad word? Every bike is a winner.
    I believe their "short travel" category has focused on the likes of Kona Hei Hei and the new Element 29er. But that was last year and the term "down country" didn't exist, haha.
    Yeah you are right in that they rarely say bad things. That could be because even the worst bike is pretty good or fear of losing advertising dollars. Still you can gleam some ideas if they downplay certain aspects or say one bike is "better" than another at something.

    Ideally you would do blind testing with multiple riders on the same terrain with enough variety to match is intended purpose. Should use both a stop watch and rider feel feed back. What a rider perceives as fast/slow may not match what the stop watch says. Also time gained in one place may be lost some where else. Same for a few seconds of time lost, but lots of confidence and margin gained. An XC racer will tend to care only about sheer speed, but an occasional racer may give up a bit of speed for more stability and comfort. The marketing guys will never really tell you where things stand. Seems to me bikes like the Epic and Scott Spark RC are designed to be raced. Any trail capability is an off shoot of race performance and current racing demands. That can be both good and bad. Bikes like Intense Sniper and the new Ferrazri Single are more marketed as trail capable XC bikes. So bikes you could race and do well, but maybe not win at the world cup level on them (with the proper rider of course). I have feeling these traits could be determined from back to back tests if someone would choose to do it. Of course where does the new SC Blur fit into this. All out race or sort of the in betweener?

    I actually think all these new XC light 120 and 100mm FS bikes are really nice. I believe that a vast majority of riders would find these very capable for nearly all the riding they do. The bigger travel more "trail/enduro" bikes are cool, but for alot of riders they will never come close to using all the performance those bikes have not to mention the true Enduro/AM bikes. I have a buddy with Spec 29er Enduro who rides gnar and chunk and has told me he still has not fully used all his bike can do. That said he does admit his bike is heavy and not as nimble as his old 26" wheel stumpjumper from 2010 ish. Maybe he went "too far" on the enduro side. Anyway point is these "XC/Trail" bikes are really good should get more attention. Not every is able to or will every try hitting gap jumps and 4 or 5 foot drops to flat as route.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by westin View Post
    Has Bike's Bible ever written a bad word? Every bike is a winner.
    I believe their "short travel" category has focused on the likes of Kona Hei Hei and the new Element 29er. But that was last year and the term "down country" didn't exist, haha.
    The entire "bible" is ad copy. Occasionally you can suss out nuance from the videos or simply infer that if they're not mentioning something, it's bad. Otherwise, there's not a word of it I'd take seriously.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by westin View Post
    Has Bike's Bible ever written a bad word? Every bike is a winner.
    I believe their "short travel" category has focused on the likes of Kona Hei Hei and the new Element 29er. But that was last year and the term "down country" didn't exist, haha.
    Not true. Two out of three didn’t care for the Trail Pistol, which happens to be a 120mm Horst link bike, to keep things on topic.
    I like bikes

  15. #15
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    Anyone ride one of these yet or seen reviews anywhere? Interested in picking one up as a frame only. Thanks!
    "And I shout that your all fakes and you should have seen the look on your face"

  16. #16
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    http://reviews.mtbr.com/fezzari-cascade-peak-pro-review

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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bogeydog View Post
    Apart from the low BB those cons are really odd..

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bogeydog View Post
    Different bike
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  19. #19
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    So I came across this review today. Looks pretty good. https://mtbeu.com/?p=888
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  20. #20
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    Talked with Fezzari today and they quoted me as $2700 for a frame, which is a bit higher than I expected based on their build prices. However, their frame kit includes a frame with a factory float shock, fox float factory SC 34 120mm, headset, and axle. They will not sell without the fork. I will probably purchase this kit and sell the fork. They won't have frame kits available for a few weeks.
    Last edited by Alpenglow; 08-14-2018 at 12:11 PM.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenglow View Post
    Talked with Fezzari today and they quoted me as $2700 for a frame, which is a bit higher than I expected based on their build prices. However, their frame kit includes a frame with a factory float shock, fox float factory SC 34 120mm, headset, and axle. They will not sell without the fork. I will probably purchase this kit and sell the fork. They won't have frame kits available for a few weeks.
    Honestly, if you are going to pay $2,700 for a Fezzari frame, might as well spend a couple hundred more and get a better known carbon frame with better record for quality, warranty, and even resale value if you so desire later. (Ibis, Santa Cruz, Pivot, or whatever) Point being, there are better companies and I mean that in the sense that they offer better warranties and suspensions. I know some will come and get aggravated that I said this but really. You who will get offended, you going to compare Fezzari to Santa Cruz or Ibis or Pivot, really?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Well my 2018 Epic with single pivot and the new 2.0 Brain climbs much better than my 2013 Santa Cruz 5010 VPP even with new Fox DPS shock. The Epic is just so much more efficient pedaling it i silly.
    Your comparing apples to oranges here. A 100mm travel XC bike made for climbing (69.5 HTA), for racing and that brain to stiffen it up more, compared to a 125mm travel trail bike (67.5* HTA) made to handle more downhill with much more travel. I would think the Epic would climb better, the frame is designed to do so. It's not desinged for what the 5010 is. Good luck with the brain in a couple of years.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by westin View Post
    Has Bike's Bible ever written a bad word? Every bike is a winner.
    I believe their "short travel" category has focused on the likes of Kona Hei Hei and the new Element 29er. But that was last year and the term "down country" didn't exist, haha.
    Yes, for some reason they seem to always bash Santa Cruz! You can count on it. Ah vpp this, ah vpp that, no midstroke, not enough reach, seat tube is too slack, etc, etc. Then you go try the bikes they say are bad at this and that and it's just not true. You have to get on the bikes yourselves. Who cares what Bike magazine has to say. Its your money, you need to try before you buy. About the only guy I trust in the Bible bike test is Ferrintino, Vernon Felton was legit as well and you could trust him to be honest but he's at Pinkbike now.

  24. #24
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    New sc bikes look like ebikes, the downtube junction at the bottom bracket look like a motor's hiding in there. If the bikes are mainly made in Taiwan how much different can they be (besides suspension design)? w/Ibis possibly moving carbon production stateside that might be a better reason to support the local guys. You can't really fault the direct sales deal, the kit for the price just blows the the well known companies you speak of away.

    I live near Santa Cruz, CA and have watched and seen the rise of a few of these local full suspension bikes/companies. On any typical day you can see test mules from a few of the big companies, suspension prototypes, and the engineers who design the products. The other day I was riding a local trail and met an engineer for a popular company that makes excellent bicycles and bike products (rhymes w/frivolity). Basically his take was that it's hard to say what's best, everyone's gonna have their own opinion, especially those w/brand loyalty. He was definitely in the camp of buying the product that's going to be the most durable and offer the best warranty. I'm really liking the price point, design, and money back guarantee of the Fezzari La Sal Peak, can't wait to see more reviews.

  25. #25
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    I took the Signal Peak out for a demo ride. It is a great bike. Climbed very well. Was a total surprise on the descents in a good way. I am not sure how you can go wrong with this bike if this travel range what your wanting. I think 2700 for a frame a step cast 34 is a good deal. Im very close to pulling the trigger on one of these. Lifetime warranty, 30 day return policy and competitive pricing are great reasons to buy now that I know how well the bike rides.

  26. #26
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    You bring up valid points, but to be fair, the Pivot Frame is more like $1800 to $2K considering you get the Headset and Fox SC for $2700. Also, the Fezzari is the only bike that checks all the boxes for me. 120mm endurance race bike, 2 water bottles in front triangle, steep STA, short chain stays, (slack for racing, but not too slack HA 68). Really, my only concern, is how the horst link will climb. I will I could get a DW link bike that met all my this criteria.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rev. 14 View Post
    Honestly, if you are going to pay $2,700 for a Fezzari frame, might as well spend a couple hundred more and get a better known carbon frame with better record for quality, warranty, and even resale value if you so desire later. (Ibis, Santa Cruz, Pivot, or whatever) Point being, there are better companies and I mean that in the sense that they offer better warranties and suspensions. I know some will come and get aggravated that I said this but really. You who will get offended, you going to compare Fezzari to Santa Cruz or Ibis or Pivot, really?
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by westin View Post
    The marketing speak from Fezzari mentions "high anti squat numbers". Isn't the Signal Peak a Horst Link which aren't as capable of climbers as mini/twin links: Fezzari Signal Peak bridges XC-trail gap - Mtbr.com

    Two bottle cages in main frame.
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    The HL plays little to no role in the anti-squat characteristics of a bike. That all depends upon the front pivot point and the the relationship to the leverage arm. You can make a HL bike with very high anti-squat numbers.

    Norco is a good example. If I remember correctly, their first ART bikes had really high anti-squat numbers but they have come down to more rational numbers.

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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenglow View Post
    Talked with Fezzari today and they quoted me as $2700 for a frame, which is a bit higher than I expected based on their build prices. However, their frame kit includes a frame with a factory float shock, fox float factory SC 34 120mm, headset, and axle. They will not sell without the fork. I will probably purchase this kit and sell the fork. They won't have frame kits available for a few weeks.
    I emailed them about frame only options about a month ago and they said they would be offered this September on their site at $2,000.

    Here's the email: Thank you for your message and interest in Fezzari. Yes, we will be offering the Signal Peak with the frame, shock (Fox Float Factory), headset, and rear axle for $1999. If you would like to add the fork as well (Fox 34SC 120mm) it would be an additional $800.

    Total for frame, shock, fork, rear axle, and headset- $2799

    This option will be available mid September.
    Small ring in front makes it easier. Small ring in back makes it harder. That blows my mind.

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    Anyone rolling one of these?
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