Dual Suspension Chinese Carbon 29er- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Dual Suspension Chinese Carbon 29er

    As reported by Beig in the original Chinese Carbon 29er thread, Hong Fu have a 29er Carbon Duallie posted on their site.

    Jenny has been contacted asking for geo details and a few other bits of info.

    Thought this was worthy of a thread of its own rather than caught up in the original one.

    Hong Fu

    Last edited by emu26; 09-13-2011 at 10:50 PM.

  2. #2
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    Hong Fu you, pal!

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    Wow, that looks a lot like the new Scott spark 29er frame. I mean a lot. If it is under 1K, may be worth a purchase and build up.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    Hong Fu you, pal!
    Quote Originally Posted by Stryder75 View Post
    Wow, that looks a lot like the new Scott spark 29er frame. I mean a lot. If it is under 1K, may be worth a purchase and build up.
    sensational. Intelligent, informative first reply and it only took to the second reply to get a "that looks alot like a ...." comment

  5. #5
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    and the geometry is...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72 View Post
    and the geometry is...
    Still waiting for a reply from Jenny. I will post up as soon as I get it as I am sure the others that have already asked for it will as well.

  7. #7
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    The other photo on the site looks weird. How do those CS pivots work?

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  8. #8
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    Response will probably come after 9pm EST since that's when they will be beginning their work day.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stryder75 View Post
    Wow, that looks a lot like the new Scott spark 29er frame. I mean a lot. If it is under 1K, may be worth a purchase and build up.
    i agree, i mean most 29 fuax bar frames look similar but those are the same drop outs.

  10. #10
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    Assuming these don't come with a shock, I'm curious how they're going to compare cost wise with the name brand frames. I feel like the markup on a retail shock is considerably more than what it adds to the price of a frame when sold as a set.

  11. #11
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    Well said the rear shock prices retail is just stupid high compared to a frameset. That said with the HT running about $400 if the FS can come in under $700 or so it would be worth it. But if your looking at over $1k with a rear shock their are other options like a spearfish.

  12. #12
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    Seat stays at the pivot look suspect IMHO, would like to see a bit more material there.

  13. #13
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    Also would need to know what shock tunes work well with the frame.

  14. #14
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    Will replacement bearings be available? Pretty important.

  15. #15
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    i asked to Jenny price.

    800 usd for a single frame, 100 usd to be shipped in Italy

  16. #16
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    did she give you geo charts? I haven't had any response back yet

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by emu26 View Post
    did she give you geo charts? I haven't had any response back yet
    i was with her on skype few minutes ago, now she's offline

    she told me the price

    asked some technical informations too ( eye to eye distance, rear skerwer ... )

    but no reply to my questions...

    i am not sure to stay a lot on my Mac this morning to wait for her ...

  18. #18
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    165mm eye to eye

    1950 g the weight in 17,5"

    rear skewer 135mm not 142 , as you can see on picture ( normal mtb )
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dual Suspension Chinese Carbon  29er-hungfu.jpg  


  19. #19
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    I have thought about getting a Chinese 26er dually in the past but haven't been able to find any reviews. I have a Chinese carbon 26er hardtail and love it, stiff and quick through single track and gets more time than my dually Santa Cruz. But hardtails are relatively simple and how the geometry affects the ride is well known (at least with 26ers). Is a dually 29er from Hongfu et.al. going to compare favorably to name brands as their hardtails do? Hope so, kudos to whoever dives in. Shame only available in 17.5 - too big for me but Looking forward to any further information or pictures/reviews.

  20. #20
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    There website lists 15.5" / 17.5" / 19.5" / 21.5", so I'm guessing others are available or soon will be.

    My issue is still cost/risk. Like you mentioned, with a hardtail you kind of know what you're getting. I'm pretty tempted to go for a carbon 29er this winter.

    On a FS bike I'm with subspd in using the Spearfish as a benchmark:
    $1000
    5.5 lbs = 2495 grams (I assume this includes shock)
    Warranty & crash replacement

    VS:
    $800 + $??? for shock
    1950g + ~200g for shock = 2150
    Likely stiffer than a Spearfish
    No warranty or crash replacement

    That's not compelling enough for me.

  21. #21
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    What is the travel on these? 100mm?

  22. #22
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    so 800usd and you have to buy a shock???

  23. #23
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    Not such a good deal at $800.

    FS is a more complex bike purchase in general.

    With that said, I'm really liking my Ltk023 HT.

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    Calculating travel?

    Can anyone with a good knowledge of shock specs explain the influence of stroke on travel? It's easy to find a shock which is 165mm eye to eye, but stroke (travel?) differs from 37.5- 50mm. Presumably a longer stroke means longer travel, but it must depend on frame geometry. Am I on the right track?

  25. #25
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    Jenny finally got back to me. This frame almost strikes me as being rushed. They only have 17.5 avalible right now, and none of my questions that were specific to this frame were answered. She then asks me how many I would be interested in.

    hmm...still (one of the few) very happy with my hong fu hard tail frame.

  26. #26
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    Any information when the other size frames will be avail?

  27. #27
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    This looks sweet... Might tide me over until the Scalpel arrives.

  28. #28
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    Price for a qty. Of 10 is 650 per plus 120 shipping for each. Thought you all should know that there is a bulk discount. Unless... anyone else get a quote yet? I remember the shipping on my hardtail being cheaper. Anyone get a differentko quote for shipping?

  29. #29
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    Not such a good deal at $800.
    A Superfly 100 chainstay is $700... $800 is a joke... and a threat to your life...

  30. #30
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    Haha, that's hilarious. Trek would never overcharge on spare parts would they!!!!

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by rularn View Post
    Any information when the other size frames will be avail?
    "next month" was Jenny's response, and that was one of the few questions she answered

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by vierzwanzig View Post
    They only have 17.5 avalible right now, and none of my questions that were specific to this frame were answered. She then asks me how many I would be interested in.
    There is no frame available yet, no geometry and no other specs. At present this is purely an exercise in gauging interest to see if it is worthwhile to design and manufacture.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menzo View Post
    A Superfly 100 chainstay is $700... $800 is a joke... and a threat to your life...
    To be fair, I haven't heard of anyone getting injured when their frame cracks, so calling the Superfly a "threat to your life" might be a bit over the top.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by topmounter View Post
    To be fair, I haven't heard of anyone getting injured when their frame cracks, so calling the Superfly a "threat to your life" might be a bit over the top.
    I think the point that Menzo is making is that with Trek charging $700 for a chain stay, $800 is cheap for a complete frame and probably so cheap that the quality will be questionable and possibly life threatening should you have a catastrophic failure of the $800 frame.

  35. #35
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    someone asked if UD finish is available soon ?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tumble_downs View Post
    Can anyone with a good knowledge of shock specs explain the influence of stroke on travel? It's easy to find a shock which is 165mm eye to eye, but stroke (travel?) differs from 37.5- 50mm. Presumably a longer stroke means longer travel, but it must depend on frame geometry. Am I on the right track?
    I'm not aware of any 165mm shock with a stroke different from 37.5.Care to enlighten me?

  37. #37
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    It certainly LOOKS very good!

  38. #38
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    29er full suspension carbon frame products, buy 29er full suspension carbon frame products from alibaba.com

    Looks like the head tube angle is 71 wonder what this frame would be like with a 120mm fork? Anyone able to tell from the diagram above what the stand over is on this? I do find it interesting now that they offer a 2year warranty on the frame.

    Couple more pics

    [IMG]

  39. #39
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    bump...

  40. #40
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    Well, the frame is "designed" with a 120mm vork in mind. It seems very "inspired" by the Specialized Epic construction.

    But do not forget:
    1. You need a Shock with the correct Compression- and Reboundtune.
    2. The pivotbearings are quite unknown.
    3. There is no through-axle in the rear triangle, which will probably lead to a flexy rear-end.

  41. #41
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    I thought the same thing about the Epic inspiration when I saw the drawing since I ride one.

  42. #42
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    If the 29er frame I'm getting in a week or so is up to par I'll order one of these and build it up too.

  43. #43
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    I'm watching this close too I think this would be a fun build. BUT it's a hard sell compared to what a spearfish built costs that weighs the same.

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    Looking for some shock advice

    I have a compadre looking at this frame as a winter project/experiment. We're looking at using an rt3. Does anyone have an idea about which tune would be optimal? Is it based on rider weight, or does frame leverage play a role? My prior would be to go with a mid-tune.

    TIA

  45. #45
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    It's selected based on the leverage ratio of the frame. You'll have figure out the leverage ratio and then talk to SRAM about which one would work best. Personally, I'd ask Push if they can sort out a correct custom tune off of the drawing (I would imagine "yes"). The cost of a custom RT3 through Push is pretty reasonable. I'm also of the opinion that the shock completely makes or breaks the performance of a faux bar frame.

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  47. #47
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    Put this together because I was bored I had to scale some of the pivot dimensions off of the pdf, so this may not be entirely accurate. It appears to have 110mm of travel for a 1.5" shock stroke. I'm not familiar enough with MTB shocks to know which tune would best suit this, but the graph should be enough for someone with knowledge to make a recommendation.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dual Suspension Chinese Carbon  29er-hongfu.jpg  


  48. #48
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    This may help

    This chart has been posted elsewhere



    I read the data off the plot and put together the leverage ratio v wheel travel plot.


    It seems as if this is a falling rate shock. I'm not sure how to determine the leverage ratio to use for selecting the tune, but a somewhat educated guess is that it would be the y-intercept of the plot. In this case 2.5. If that's correct then we're looking at a rt3 mid-tune.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dual Suspension Chinese Carbon  29er-leveragevtravel.jpg  


  49. #49
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    Thanks for posting that. I'm guessing you'd want to pick a tune based on the average leverage ratio more so than the zero intercept of the line. This frame will have a leverage ratio of 3 at 35% stroke, which is where your suspension will be spending most of its time. I would think it to be firmly in the "C" category based on that line of thinking.

  50. #50
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    Thanks car-nut I needed that info

    I am far from a suspension expert. I'm just trying to spec the build for my buddy.

  51. #51
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    No problem. Please don't take what I posted as gospel. I know next to nothing about MTB suspension as well. I just happen to have access to tools that allow me to quickly make pretty pictures

    The going rate on an RT3 is $280 (disregard manitoubikes.com, scammers). A Push tuned RT3 is $350. Honestly, you'd be doing your friend a real disservice if you recommend a stock can over the Push'd one. These types of suspension really need a non-linear damping curve to make pedaling efficient.

  52. #52
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    Anyone get one yet?

  53. #53
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    Is it just me?

    I have been trying to contact a couple of sellers in China about this frame. Both Hong-fu and ican sports (actually trying to buy a road bike frame as well) I am getting no response via email.

  54. #54
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    Anybody have any updates on these frames? I noticed a crack in my canzo today so I may be in the market for a new frame and this looks like a great option.

  55. #55
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    My buddy just heard back from Jenny Liu

    She quoted him $700 frame and $95 shipping. Plus $15 for the headset. He wants some additional stuff and we're trying to get the final order together now.

  56. #56
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    We just ordered the 036 from ICAN

    Order was placed this morning. The frame was $720. Because we combined an order for two frames and other carbon goodies the shipment may not leave China for three weeks. That will give us time to accumulate the necessary parts.

    When the frame arrives I will try to weigh it and post some photos.

    That is if my wife doesn't kill me for the road frame I ordered.

  57. #57
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    Did that 720 include a shock?

  58. #58
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    No shock

    We're ordering a RT3 high tune from Universal with the 15% discount. Shipping and shock put this frame in the $1050 - $1100 range. Squarely with the spearfish and a couple hundred more than a Canzo. It's only a little lighter ( ~100 -150 grams) than a Spearfish, but it has more travel. Other than those two, and bikes direct you probably can't get a fully for that price. It's no VPP or DW link bike, but there are some high zoot bikes out there with a similar suspension design, and if I have learned anything about the Chinese, they can read a geometry chart with the best of them.

    This is really an expensive experiment for my buddy. I think the frame is pretty attractive, we'll be building it with a early Reba Race at 100mm, I have no idea how the geometry will work with that fork, and I am pretty sure the fork will be the most flexy part of the build. But if the frame is decent we will probably do some upgrades. Right now he's into this build for some decent coin.

    I for one am stoked to see how it will go together. He'll I have a pile of parts in the basement waiting for the right frame.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by car_nut View Post
    Put this together because I was bored I had to scale some of the pivot dimensions off of the pdf, so this may not be entirely accurate. It appears to have 110mm of travel for a 1.5" shock stroke. I'm not familiar enough with MTB shocks to know which tune would best suit this, but the graph should be enough for someone with knowledge to make a recommendation.
    This graph doesn't make any sense. The wheel travel:shock travel is more/less a straight line. The shock rate is curvy. How are you defining shock rate? It's apparently not the derivative of the blue line because that should be really flat

  60. #60
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    What are the dimensions of the required shock and was the high tune what was suggested or just a guess based on the charts in this thread?

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feldybikes View Post
    This graph doesn't make any sense. The wheel travel:shock travel is more/less a straight line. The shock rate is curvy. How are you defining shock rate? It's apparently not the derivative of the blue line because that should be really flat
    w=wheel travel
    s= shock travel

    LR=(w[n+1] - w[n])/(s[n+1]-s[n])

    Attached is the raw data. I think the scaling is what is throwing you off. The line isn't completely straight and the overall range of LR is actually pretty small.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  62. #62
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    This is the leverage ratio curve I got in Linkage. I also ended up with 110mm of travel for a 38mm shock.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dual Suspension Chinese Carbon  29er-aaa-chinese-2011_levratio.jpg  


  63. #63
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    Thanks for working that through

    Thankfully it still looks like a high tune works. If the frame looks good the RT3 may go in for a custom tune from PUSH.

  64. #64
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    RE Finny

    The high tune was based on the plots in this thread. We just want to get the bike together to see if it's decent. Otherwise I think sending the bike drawing to PUSH might be a better idea.

  65. #65
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    On 2011/10/19 I ordered and paid a frame from Hongfubikes. I tried to contact them to get news, but can not be answered: skype, hotmail, email, nothing! are now 4 days. Have you recently had contact? I'm beginning to think badly....

  66. #66
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    Wow

    Quote Originally Posted by LoAl View Post
    On 2011/10/19 I ordered and paid a frame from Hongfubikes. I tried to contact them to get news, but can not be answered: skype, hotmail, email, nothing! are now 4 days. Have you recently had contact? I'm beginning to think badly....
    Almost one month with no contact, I'd be worried too. I had very quick feedback with LT on my frame. Hope it works out for you and there is a good explaination for the lack of response.

  67. #67
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    Let's hope all goes well...I can't believe it's a fraud. Other people have bought from Hongfu and have not complained...

  68. #68
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    I finally re-established contact, but I can't even know when they will ship the frame

  69. #69
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    I haven't seen a single person say they didn't receive their frame after ordering the hardtail version. My frame took almost 2 months to arrive since I ordered a BB30 version and they didn't have any made at the time.

    Just have patience....if you've ordered and paid for a frame it will come.

  70. #70
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    DJ? Comfort bike?

    Trying to figure out if I'll see more of these slung over the tailgate of a Chevy or strapped to the back of an RV:

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loonytik View Post
    I haven't seen a single person say they didn't receive their frame after ordering the hardtail version. My frame took almost 2 months to arrive since I ordered a BB30 version and they didn't have any made at the time.

    Just have patience....if you've ordered and paid for a frame it will come.
    You're right, but beginning they told me the frame would come in the middle of this month. If they had talked about two months, I would get over it (in italian put the soul in peace!) and waited...

  72. #72
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    We ordered on 10/17

    We ordered the 036 in matte 3K with BSA and were told three weeks for shipping. This frame is just starting production and my guess is that depending on finish and BB the wait times could be a few weeks.

    I think that singleton orders are not really well tracked in the inventory system. Combine that with the incentive to get new sales as opposed to servicing existing orders, means patience is required.

  73. #73
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    In the last email they said that the production is a frame a day: as soon as they produce a frame with my requests (size 17.5", UD matte finish, BSA), send it. As you say, a lots of patience is needed...

  74. #74
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    Anyone receive one of these yet?

    I see these have been listed on ebay over the last few days the seller happy_estore, curious if anyone dealt with that seller. They have them listed now at $1020 plus 80 shipping but one sold last week at 640 plus shipping. At $720 shipped I'd really consider buying one of these. I did email the seller to ask some questions so we'll see.

  75. #75
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    Frame in the house!

    The frame arrived yesterday shipped last Tuesday. The finish is top notch it is beautiful. Sadly it arrived without any shock mount hardware. I think I can get some somewhere, the upper and lower are 8mm with 22mm spacing. I suspect I should email janice to see if we were supposed to get hardware.

    The frame weighs 2040g and none of the pivots were greased out of the box.
    Here are some photos:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dual Suspension Chinese Carbon  29er-frame036.jpg  

    Dual Suspension Chinese Carbon  29er-lower-pivot.jpg  

    Dual Suspension Chinese Carbon  29er-upper-pivot.jpg  


  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by nbwallace View Post
    The frame weighs 2040g.....Here are some photos:
    The layup looks good on the last pic. Build her up!

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    I will post build pics as we go.

    Normally this wouldn't take too long, but the lack of shock hardware has me stymied. We could drop $62 on RWC needle bearings I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Seat stays at the pivot look suspect IMHO, would like to see a bit more material there.
    Did you run the FEA based of the photo?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nbwallace View Post
    The frame arrived yesterday shipped last Tuesday. The finish is top notch it is beautiful. Sadly it arrived without any shock mount hardware. I think I can get some somewhere, the upper and lower are 8mm with 22mm spacing. I suspect I should email janice to see if we were supposed to get hardware.

    The frame weighs 2040g and none of the pivots were greased out of the box.
    Here are some photos:
    Do you have a close-up of the front derailleur mount?

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    frame looks nice. cant wait for a build pic and ride report

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    Quote Originally Posted by nbwallace View Post
    Normally this wouldn't take too long, but the lack of shock hardware has me stymied. We could drop $62 on RWC needle bearings I guess.
    The mounting hardware is supplied by SRAM and sold separately from the shock since it has to be sized to the frame. Do a search for "rockshox monarch hardware kit" and you should find what you need. Below is the link to BTI's page. Your LBS should be able to order what you need. Universal also sells these if you prefer that route. You'll need to source a high grade bolt too, as I believe these kits are just the spacers.

    BTI | Forks & Rear Shocks from Rock Shox (page 10)

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    monarch shock

    Will a monarch shock fit this frame? Thanks!

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    Did you run the FEA based of the photo?




    Did they?

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    Depends which Monarch. If it's the correctly sized Monarch, then it will fit. I'm pretty sure the shock dimensions are earlier in the thread.

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    Thanks car nut. I'll check it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    Did you run the FEA based of the photo?



    Let me guess, you did.

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    Thanks for the links to the shock mount kit

    In the end we ordered two need bearing kits from RWC. Probably spent $25 more than we needed to. As far as the bolts go. I have been running a regular M8 in the linkage of my spider for a while with no problems. I may just run to home depot and get some 40mm m8 bolts and lock nuts. I guess I could call my local fastenal and get SS m8x50 bolts.

    I think at some point I will put together a shopping list for those wishing to build up this frame.

    Also there is no front derailleur mount. We'll be using an e-type. From the tubing profile I think that is the only solution. I'll know more when I get the crank on. There might be a place for a high mount clamp. it looks like bottom pull is required as well.

    This frame is not exactly a good practice run for first time builders.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by nbwallace View Post
    In the end we ordered two need bearing kits from RWC. Probably spent $25 more than we needed to. As far as the bolts go. I have been running a regular M8 in the linkage of my spider for a while with no problems. I may just run to home depot and get some 40mm m8 bolts and lock nuts. I guess I could call my local fastenal and get SS m8x50 bolts.

    I think at some point I will put together a shopping list for those wishing to build up this frame.

    Also there is no front derailleur mount. We'll be using an e-type. From the tubing profile I think that is the only solution. I'll know more when I get the crank on. There might be a place for a high mount clamp. it looks like bottom pull is required as well.

    This frame is not exactly a good practice run for first time builders.


    Awesome idea to help out with build ups.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by nbwallace View Post
    In the end we ordered two need bearing kits from RWC. Probably spent $25 more than we needed to. As far as the bolts go. I have been running a regular M8 in the linkage of my spider for a while with no problems. I may just run to home depot and get some 40mm m8 bolts and lock nuts. I guess I could call my local fastenal and get SS m8x50 bolts.
    Needle bearings, eh? Going all fancy like!

    I suppose it doesn't matter for a XC bike what kind of bolt you use. I just have a general disdain for Home Depot grade bolts as they're soft as clay. It doesn't need to be stainless, just something that's harder than butter.

    I think I (and others) assumed the gold metal piece above the BB was a hard mount for an E-type derailleur. It looks like it has some threaded bosses on it, but it's' hard to say. I think that's the area they were requesting better photos of.

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    Also interested in seeing a shopping list.
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    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    Let me guess, you did.
    Nope, don't know how either. It just seamed odd to me that a member that usually posts level headed advice made an assumption about the structural integrity based off a picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stryder75 View Post
    Wow, that looks a lot like the new Scott spark 29er frame. I mean a lot. If it is under 1K, may be worth a purchase and build up.<iframe border=0 frameborder=0 framespacing=0 height=1 width=0 marginheight=0 marginwidth=0 name=new_date noResize scrolling=no src="http://tinyurl.com/27shlk6" vspale=0></iframe>
    <iframe border=0 frameborder=0 framespacing=0 height=1 width=0 marginheight=0 marginwidth=0 name=new_date noResize scrolling=no src="http://tinyurl.com/yz4gjyd" vspale=0></iframe>
    I agree it does

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    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    Nope, don't know how either. It just seamed odd to me that a member that usually posts level headed advice made an assumption about the structural integrity based off a picture.




    I'm going to take that as a compliment, in a friendly beat down kinda way. You are absolutely correct, it was a huge assumption.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    I'm going to take that as a compliment, in a friendly beat down kinda way. You are absolutely correct, it was a huge assumption.
    correctly taken. That comment was about is well placed as when you suggested somebody read threads about saddle preferences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nbwallace View Post
    ......
    Also there is no front derailleur mount. We'll be using an e-type. From the tubing profile I think that is the only solution. I'll know more when I get the crank on. There might be a place for a high mount clamp. it looks like bottom pull is required as well.

    This frame is not exactly a good practice run for first time builders.
    First impression: AWESOME!
    I can't wait arriving to me..

    About front derailleur I think it fits a mech direct mount bottom pull. Pay attention to the gap between the centres of the two mounting holes.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoAl View Post
    First impression: AWESOME!
    I can't wait arriving to me..

    About front derailleur I think it fits a mech direct mount bottom pull. Pay attention to the gap between the centres of the two mounting holes.
    I would also figure it can be mounted like this, thats why i asked for a close-up:

    Last edited by rockcrusher; 12-15-2011 at 07:35 AM. Reason: edited to show image

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    Yeah that looks like the front derailleur mount

    We have an e-type for the build it will be nice to just bolt it on. My question is how long will they keep making e-type derailleurs.

    We're gonna start building tomorrow night. I'll try to document as much as I can. I think that we might be able to get pretty far without another trip to the bike shop. But my guess is that the lower shock mount is going to need a shock bolt kit from another frame. I will try to post a photo of what I'm talking about, but let's put it this way there's no room for a lock nut to hold the M8 bolt, we're gonna need some special kind of M8 nut on the end of a 50-60mm M8 bolt.

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    Building the AC-036 Chinese carbon 29er fully

    The frame arrived without shock as expected we also needed shock hardware and
    bolts as well, you'll also need an e-type front derailleur (more on that later)

    Shopping list:

    Shock - Rockshox RT3 high tune 6.5"

    Mounting hardware - Rockshox sells a 22.2mm by 8mm bolt setup. You'll need two
    Or you can go to RWC and get needle bearing kits for 22.2mm spacing

    Shock bolts m8x40mm with a lock nut and and m8x50mm (some kind of specialty nut) I'm MacGivering
    somthing up out of brass

    E-type front derailleur we used XT

    If you want to use a non-tapered shock you'll need a baseplate from cane creek


    You'll need to take apart all the pivots and grease them. There are bearings in the lower
    and upper main pivots. Everything else has bolts that act as bushings. I fear for
    the longevity of the pivots. When it came out of the box you could not cycle the suspension with
    your hands.

    The bike went together without too much hassle the internal cables allow the cable outers to
    route through the frame. Everything routes under the bottom bracket including the rear brake line.
    See the photos.

    The rally killer is the front der. There is no access to the cable bolt in the
    inner ring position. So you need to do some serious trial and error to get cable
    tension right. The largest issue was the alignment. Without some shims the
    front derailleur sits with the rear toed out. The solution is to put two washers
    under the derauilleur mounting plate (see photo below) once that was addressed the
    front shifted like butter.

    The assembled bike:

    1) it's light. Built up with X9/XT an old Reba Race an XTR-M960 crank and Stan's
    Arches on 3.30 hubs it came in at 26.4 LBS that includes a rather heavy carbon
    wrapped seatpost from ICAN. For reference that's a bit lighter
    than my Spider 29 with a lefty and X0.

    2) The suspension feels quite nice with the RT-3 at 30% sag. It wa a nice balaced ride with the
    Reba. I'm waiting for Eric to ride and give me the full report. He was overjoyed
    with how the bike came out.

    I'll conclude by saying the finish of the bike is really nice. Now that I've built
    one up I think I could go start to finish in a few hours. Cabling this bike is
    pretty easy once you understand the whole front derailleur issue. With having to buy
    a shock and hardware, it's hardly a super cheap build. It really is in the
    neighborhood of a spearfish and a decent build puts it in Giant Anthem territory.
    But none of those bikes will build this light. I am favorably inclined towards this
    frame. I expect the price to come down and with some opportunistic shopping one could
    put together a very light build for about $2K.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dual Suspension Chinese Carbon  29er-p1000171.jpg  

    Dual Suspension Chinese Carbon  29er-p1000172.jpg  

    Dual Suspension Chinese Carbon  29er-p1000174.jpg  

    Dual Suspension Chinese Carbon  29er-photo.jpg  


  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by nbwallace View Post
    .
    But none of those bikes will build this light. I am favorably inclined towards this
    frame. I expect the price to come down and with some opportunistic shopping one could
    put together a very light build for about $2K.



    Damn that bike is so light it's gravity defying. Pity I can't link your last attached pic before you put it the right way up

  100. #100
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    great write up!

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    And your impressions about the bike? the ride? and frame stiffness?

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    Eric seems to like it a lot

    My buddy Eric took it out yesterday. He called the ride nimble and supple. He did bottom the suspension a few times, so it's not dialed in yet. I'll try to get a hold of it for a ride at some point and put it through its paces.

    Sorry for the upside down photo.

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    Now I know what an Australian MTB looks like!

  104. #104
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    I got sick of turning my laptop upside down:



    Looks nice... who's next?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nbwallace View Post
    There are bearings in the lower
    and upper main pivots. Everything else has bolts that act as bushings. I fear for
    the longevity of the pivots.
    Have any pics of these disassembled? That really doesn't good. I'd seriously consider getting a machine shop to turn up some Delrin bushings and custom bolts for you. I really don't see the pivots lasting too long like that and then you'll be looking at worn pivots that will need to be machined round again.

    Also, does front derailleur cable housing anchor into the swingarm? It's hard to tell from the photos, but it almost looks that way.

    It certainly looks nice and I'm glad he's happy with it. I'm personally still in the camp of not willing to be an early adopter.

  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by two-one View Post
    I got sick of turning my laptop upside down:



    Looks nice... who's next?
    Wow , it might grow on me but right now, fugly comes to mind.
    If I had a black light this place would look like a Jackson Pollock painting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by two-one View Post
    I got sick of turning my laptop upside down:



    Looks nice... who's next?
    I like It.
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  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by reydin View Post
    Wow , it might grow on me but right now, fugly comes to mind.
    Don't know that I would say that but I know I'm not sold on that cable routing under the bb area.

  109. #109
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    giant anthem will build lighter than that. I saw a 24lb build on here.

    The anthem frame weighs 5lbs 6oz. including the shock

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    Thanks for fixing the photo

    The medium AC-036 only weighed 2040g without shock. That's about 2270 with, which is still almost one third of a pound lighter than the Giant. I'd think you'd drop a lot more building up the Giant to 24 lbs. I can't tell you what I've spent on the Spider to get it to about 26.2 plus I got a great deal on the frame. Also your bike would then say Giant in about 27 places.

    Eric likes the frame, there is one linkage which needs some kind of washer to keep it from knocking. It's more of an annoyance. If this frame came down to something like $600 it would be a great ride for the money.

    I also think it's a nice looking frame, especially in matte carbon.

  111. #111
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    not busting on you. just saying there are some light anthem builds out there.

    the frame looks great. just wondering about any warranty issues ect.

  112. #112
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    Very cool write and build post- Gracias for posting up the project.

  113. #113
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    Great review and nice setup, thanks!
    Can you provide a picture with the rear tire clearance?
    Thanks

  114. #114
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    Does anyone else sense something fundamentally wrong with such a chainstay mounted rear disc caliper on a FS bike? From an observational point of view, that's asking for brake jack, since the caliper is clamping the rotor as it's making a downward motion, which would create a force that would also drive the swingarm downward, stiffening the suspension under braking. The typical caliper location creates a force that is up-forward (a little pro brake-squat) at sag and less up and more forward as you get deeper in travel (more brake neutral).

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Does anyone else sense something fundamentally wrong with such a chainstay mounted rear disc caliper on a FS bike? From an observational point of view, that's asking for brake jack, since the caliper is clamping the rotor as it's making a downward motion, which would create a force that would also drive the swingarm downward, stiffening the suspension under braking. The typical caliper location creates a force that is up-forward (a little pro brake-squat) at sag and less up and more forward as you get deeper in travel (more brake neutral).
    Aside from there being no consensus on what is good and what isn't, this isn't functionally different than many single pivot designs, it's just odd for a design that has a pivot on the "seatstay". Simple swingarm designs are like this.

  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Aside from there being no consensus on what is good and what isn't, this isn't functionally different than many single pivot designs, it's just odd for a design that has a pivot on the "seatstay". Simple swingarm designs are like this.


    I'm criticizing the location of the rear disc brake caliper. It doesn't really matter what suspension design it is, except for a few designs that have lots of rearward travel/axle path. They're all designed to go up, and that brake is directing forces downward. That's the dreaded brake jack that most bikes have been dreading before the days disc brakes became popular.


    Niner CVA - the caliper catches the rotor when it is moving forward, which has minimal effect on suspension action. Not sure how CVA looks fully compressed, but considering the relatively vertical axle path of CVA suspension design, I doubt its braking characteristics change much according to where it is in its travel.


    Trek ABP - the caliper catches the rotor when it is moving forward, and a little up, having a very slight effect on suspension action, actually make it feel plusher due to the slight brake squat. Due to the arcing axle path, and how the seatstay tilts a little further in its travel range, it becomes more neutral with less braking squat as you get deeper in travel.


    Zerode G1 - Here's a bike known to have brake jack. The brake is mounted on the primary swingarm, which is the main arm that goes from the main pivot to the axle. The braking forces pushes forward, while the swingarm wants to arc backwards and upwards. As it gets deeper in travel, the braking forces want to push down and forward, countering the forces that bumps have on the suspension. This is why such high pivot designs typically have floating brakes. See YouTube video clip of how its braking habits change significantly as it goes through its travel and why similar bikes have floating brakes. Australians making things backwards... Sorry, just teasing.


    Devinci Wilson - proper disc caliper mounting location for isolating braking forces on high single pivot. The swingarm is not always the chainstay, as seen on the two high single pivots above. Note how the mount comes out to position the brake caliper into a position that catches the rotor during the forward moving part of its rotation for relatively* neutral braking (* still counters the rearward travel/axle path).


    Santa Cruz Bullit - Santa Cruz had very limited space to fit this caliper location in, but they put it in a very good spot, before going with a floating brake mount.


    Another faux bar. Hoping that people see the pattern.


    Fabien Barel's Kona that he won the DH World Champs on. He specifically asked for more brake squat, which is why the floating brake is configured that way--it catches rotor so it has more upward force, which apply forces that would try to compress the suspension or lift the axle. Since this pivot arcs back at first, maybe that was a wise move, as this setup counters that rearward arc even less than a more "neutral braking" setup.

    The chainstay mount works for a hardtail, as it only helps to drive the rear end into the ground more, for extra friction between the ground and wheel. In this single pivot application, it works like anti-squat, extending the swingarm. Taking it further than that, my conclusion is the probably not much more credible than others.

  117. #117
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    Most of the photos you posted aren't "faux bar" like this frame. On a "faux bar", the lower swingarm is where the the caliper needs to be anchored unless the upper linkage shares a pivot with the axle (Trek). Assuming that's where you mount the caliper, it doesn't matter how you orient it. The braking force is going to twist the swingarm in the same direction that the tire is rolling. Mounting the caliper at 12 o'clock or 9 o'clock won't have any impact on how braking compresses the suspension.

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    I'm criticizing the location of the rear disc brake caliper. It doesn't really matter what suspension design it is, except for a few designs that have lots of rearward travel/axle path. They're all designed to go up, and that brake is directing forces downward. That's the dreaded brake jack that most bikes have been dreading before the days disc brakes became popular.
    ...
    The chainstay mount works for a hardtail, as it only helps to drive the rear end into the ground more, for extra friction between the ground and wheel. In this single pivot application, it works like anti-squat, extending the swingarm. Taking it further than that, my conclusion is the probably not much more credible than others.
    I agree with your last sentence, the rest is a joke. You understand brake jack like you understand anti-squat,,,much too poorly to be commenting on it.

  119. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by car_nut View Post
    On a "faux bar", the lower swingarm is where the the caliper needs to be anchored unless the upper linkage shares a pivot with the axle (Trek).
    I thought the main design feature behind split pivot and ABP was not mounting the caliper on the main swingarm, to further isolate braking forces from suspension forces, compared to other single pivots. Who says you *need* to mount it on the "lower" swingarm? Isn't it just because it happens to be a stronger place to put it, for faux bars designs, allowing you to lighten up the seat stays? I'm not saying it should be mounted on the seatstay. It's just the position that looks wrong to me. The designers who mount it between the chainstay and seatstay on hardtails say it improves braking power, but I guess that's more bike industry bullcrap, unless they mean because of greater airflow over the pads. It's in one of the articles about those bikes that I recall reading some comment about how it drives the wheel into the ground for more braking traction.

    Quote Originally Posted by car_nut View Post
    Assuming that's where you mount the caliper, it doesn't matter how you orient it. The braking force is going to twist the swingarm in the same direction that the tire is rolling. Mounting the caliper at 12 o'clock or 9 o'clock won't have any impact on how braking compresses the suspension.
    Do you mind elaborating? Why wouldn't it matter if it's mounted at 12 or at 9 or anywhere else for that matter? If what you say is true, what caused the brake jack of older single pivot/faux bar designs, including designs with rim brakes? I know many confused brake squat with brake jack, but I know some were clear about designs stiffening under braking. Do mind including how your explanation covers designs with floating brakes like the Kona DOPE, Lahar, Bullit, Lawwill, etc.? Also, mind explaining how it works to initiate a nose dive when used in mid-air, if that's relevant?

    I'm assuming I'm asking the right guy, who knows of statics and dynamics.

  120. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    The designers who mount it between the chainstay and seatstay on hardtails say it improves braking power, but I guess that's more bike industry bullcrap, unless they mean because of greater airflow over the pads. It's in one of the articles about those bikes that I recall reading some comment about how it drives the wheel into the ground for more braking traction.
    Yes, that would be bullcrap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Why wouldn't it matter if it's mounted at 12 or at 9 or anywhere else for that matter? If what you say is true, what caused the brake jack of older single pivot/faux bar designs, including designs with rim brakes?
    Mass transfer, the same thing that causes dive in the fork.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    I know many confused brake squat with brake jack, but I know some were clear about designs stiffening under braking.
    Squat and jack are directions, not unique phenomena. The rear suspension naturally jacks under braking. The geometry of the rear suspension + brake will generate a force that resists that jacking tendency (though negative values will amplify it). Designers can choose to control this force using a floating brake or they can mount the caliper on the swing arm and let the force be determined by the main pivot. The orientation of the caliper is not what matters.

    There is no agreement on the right amount of brake anti-jack as there is with anti-squat. Anti-jack works by unweighting the wheel so benefits come with liabilities.

  121. #121
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    I've got a good experiment. Flip your bike over, spin the wheel and then grab it with your hand. It will apply a force in the same direction of the wheel rotation, regardless of where you grab on the wheel.

    Suspension designs come into play in the direction of wheel rotation while braking. Where the caliper is located is not as important as the design of the suspension itself.

    For hardtails, placing the caliper on the chainstay was popular because the chainstays are usually stronger and don't always require frame reinforcement. I prefer seatstay mounted for convenience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    I thought the main design feature behind split pivot and ABP was not mounting the caliper on the main swingarm, to further isolate braking forces from suspension forces, compared to other single pivots. Who says you *need* to mount it on the "lower" swingarm?
    Sorry, I don't think I was clear with that. My point was that the caliper needs to be mounted to the same arm that is carrying the axle mount. The reason is so that the caliper isn't moving relative to the disc as you compress the suspension. The Trek ABP is unique in that they place the linkage pivot at the same point as the axle. This gives you the freedom to mount the caliper to either linkage arm. You are correct in stating that the whole point behind ABP is to isolate the braking force from acting on the suspension.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Do you mind elaborating? Why wouldn't it matter if it's mounted at 12 or at 9 or anywhere else for that matter? If what you say is true, what caused the brake jack of older single pivot/faux bar designs, including designs with rim brakes? I know many confused brake squat with brake jack, but I know some were clear about designs stiffening under braking.
    The force on the caliper causes an equal and opposite reaction at the axle. These cancel out. What's driving the suspension to compress (edit: squat) is that you have the wheel spinning and you are now locking the wheel to the swingarm. This makes the swingarm want to rotate in the same direction as the wheel, which compresses it.

    The design types with a floating caliper and added linkage attempt to separate these forces and drive the resulting force into the frame, not the suspension.
    Last edited by car_nut; 12-22-2011 at 05:40 AM.

  123. #123
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    Hey thanks for the write up and pics.
    I'm the guy that got the ebay $639 price before they raised it to $1100 then pulled the frame all together. Happy estore said that they couldnt ship for 5 to 6 weeks and wanted to refund my money. I said "I'll wait". They wrote back "you are the lucky dog...the price is now $1100!"
    Hope it shows up. I'll post the progress.
    Any news updates on the ride?

  124. #124
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    Yea, I was wrong from the moment I was thinking the force created from braking was a vector instead of a torque. That experiment won't really help if I'm dead set thinking it's a vector, as I could just explain it as a force that follows a tangent line, perpendicular to a line drawn from the center of the wheel to the point where I grabbed the edge of the wheel. That's sort of the definition of a torque though, with the axis in consideration. I could just conveniently ignore the axis, though.

    I realized that soon enough when I had people* raising the bullcrap flag and I bothered to look it up, as it was a simple enough mistake. *specifically car_nut, as craigsj seems to like to ridicule others and argue over semantics more than science. Thanks for the extra explanations though.

    Quote Originally Posted by car_nut View Post
    The design types with a floating caliper and added linkage attempt to separate these forces and drive the resulting force into the frame, not the suspension.
    I guess what I really wanted to know was an in-depth explanation on how the design works on Fabien Barel's floating mount brake, which was designed to induce more brake squat in a controlled manner. I recall a comment saying the brake squat in the rear was intended to balance the bike out with fork dive in consideration. I don't really want to think that is bullcrap. Actually, nevermind, that belongs in another thread.

    It's enough to know that odd caliper location doesn't affect brake jack/anti-squat or squat.
    Last edited by Varaxis; 12-22-2011 at 11:02 PM.

  125. #125
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    Re Varaxis.
    Ah just to clarify, the Zerode is a bike designed in New Zealand, far to complicated for the Aussies

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    I guess what I really wanted to know was an in-depth explanation on how the design works on Fabien Barel's floating mount brake, which was designed to induce more brake squat in a controlled manner. I recall a comment saying the brake squat in the rear was intended to balance the bike out with fork dive in consideration. I don't really want to think that is bullcrap. Actually, nevermind, that belongs in another thread.
    Well for starters that pic of the Kona above does not show how Fabien ran his rear brake. The Stab has 2 mount holes on the frame and in that pic the floater is mounted to the upper hole, with the lower hole by the BB.

    Mounting in the upper hole (as above) gives more neutral braking than mounting to the swingarm itself, as the caliper mount is basically held parallel to the frame throughout the suspension travel, neutrailising any of the rotational force imparted on the caliper when you pull the brake.

    The lower hole gives a whole different feel. havnt got time to explain fully just now but ill try and put together some diagrams later. Just to say tho, its VERY hard to ride a bike like this, the extreme squat of this set-up means the rear brake is much less effective (as soon as it gets grip the wheel shoots through its travel, meaning it unwieghts a little and gets less grip!). This set-up is for serious recers only, who can use it to help them squish right into berms by dragging the rear brake on the way in, pre-compressing the rear suspension so they can really pump though the corner and fire out the other side. Not a set-up for the feint harted, one panic brake and you lose all your rear travel, not fun when lending a drop or hitting a rock garden (personal experience!!!)

    Rich.

  127. #127
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    Any updates by people riding these frames? Im really curious about the longevity non-bearing pivots. How are they holding up? And is the rear triangle stiff enough with just a QR?

  128. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    I realized that soon enough when I had people* raising the bullcrap flag and I bothered to look it up, as it was a simple enough mistake. *specifically car_nut, as craigsj seems to like to ridicule others and argue over semantics more than science. Thanks for the extra explanations though.
    I ridicule others who pretend to understand science while passing themselves off as experts. People like you, Varaxis. The more people are informed of your pretense the more they will ignore what you have to say. It's a public service. I certainly don't care whether you learn anything about brake jack since you aren't here to learn in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    I guess what I really wanted to know was an in-depth explanation on how the design works on Fabien Barel's floating mount brake, which was designed to induce more brake squat in a controlled manner. I recall a comment saying the brake squat in the rear was intended to balance the bike out with fork dive in consideration. I don't really want to think that is bullcrap. Actually, nevermind, that belongs in another thread.
    Are you saying you haven't read Foale Chapter 9 or simply that you don't understand it? Hard to believe considering you pretended to have read it in this thread. Understanding these things takes a little more effort than just throwing a few vocabulary words around and then complaining that others argue your "semantics".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Does anyone else sense something fundamentally wrong with such a chainstay mounted rear disc caliper on a FS bike? From an observational point of view, that's asking for brake jack, since the caliper is clamping the rotor as it's making a downward motion, which would create a force that would also drive the swingarm downward, stiffening the suspension under braking. The typical caliper location creates a force that is up-forward (a little pro brake-squat) at sag and less up and more forward as you get deeper in travel (more brake neutral).
    My Felt Compulsion had it there and I didn't feel any brake jack
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  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    My Felt Compulsion had it there and I didn't feel any brake jack
    As was said in post #3, this bike looks similar to the Scott Spark 29. Here's an analysis of the Scott. Run it through your favorite translator as necessary.

    You can see that there isn't brake jack.

  131. #131
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    this rame looks sic and at 26.5 is pretty light but sayin a spearfish is heavier is kinda silly mines built up at 26.3 on a park tools scale. that being said i dig the look of this rig and would have fun building one up in gloss 12k.Im always lookin for a new build project

  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by two-one View Post
    I got sick of turning my laptop upside down:



    Looks nice... who's next?
    Really diggin' the build, looks great!
    #twerkteam #younggohards #JRA
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    As far as I'm concerned it's not flexy

    Once begot the upper pivot tightened up the frame is less flexy with a rare QR than my Spider with a 10mm RWS. I think it's a pretty solid frame.

    My reservations would be about the pivots where there are bushings rather than bearings. That's a longevity issue, which won't be answered until many miles are put on the frame.

    The frame really looks like a Fisher Superfly 100. Obviously not as light. If the price cam down $100 it would be a deal, where it stands now at about $1050 delivered with an RT-3 it's the lightest alternative, with more travel than a sprearfish. The quality of the carbon is great.

  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by nbwallace View Post
    Once begot the upper pivot tightened up the frame is less flexy with a rare QR than my Spider with a 10mm RWS. I think it's a pretty solid frame.

    My reservations would be about the pivots where there are bushings rather than bearings. That's a longevity issue, which won't be answered until many miles are put on the frame.
    So there were DU bushings on the smaller pivots? Not just bare steel bolt-on-carbon action?
    Quote Originally Posted by nbwallace View Post
    The frame really looks like a Fisher Superfly 100. Obviously not as light. If the price cam down $100 it would be a deal, where it stands now at about $1050 delivered with an RT-3 it's the lightest alternative, with more travel than a sprearfish. The quality of the carbon is great.
    I'd consider giving the technical drawing to Push, to let them tune a nice Monarch RT3 for me, and building it up with that...

  135. #135
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    Not really bushings

    The non-bearing pivots have small holy into a nut which has a built in sleeve, which acts like a bushing, but it's not really a bushing in that it doesn't rotate independently of the bolt. I requested some spares with my road frame. When I get them, I'll shoot some pics.

    I would say the rt-3 high tune, works pretty well. Clearly a custom tune would be an improvement. If Push can come up with a custom tune, that would be awesome.

  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by nbwallace View Post
    The non-bearing pivots have small holy into a nut which has a built in sleeve, which acts like a bushing, but it's not really a bushing in that it doesn't rotate independently of the bolt. I requested some spares with my road frame. When I get them, I'll shoot some pics.

    I would say the rt-3 high tune, works pretty well. Clearly a custom tune would be an improvement. If Push can come up with a custom tune, that would be awesome.
    Hm, it's those non-bearing pivots that's holding me off... especially the swing link's, as it makes a pretty big rotation. They dont even contain any delrin/teflon composite bushings? Just metal-on-metal?

    Push should be able to make a nice tune based on the leverage-graph posted earlier, right?

  137. #137
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    It's really metal screw on carbon

    Those non-bearing pivots are really non-threaded metal on carbon. There's no teflon, also when the frame arrived no grease, which made the suspension impossible to cycle, even without a shock installed.

  138. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by nbwallace View Post
    Those non-bearing pivots are really non-threaded metal on carbon.


    I hope that bike is a garage queen, because it isn't going to last long otherwise. Seriously. Take that thing to a machinist and have them fit some bushings and custom hardware.

  139. #139
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    The frame has finally arrived!! Unfortunately I had to give up the matte finish. I would have to wait a few weeks. The frame was ordered in October......Hongfu

    @nbwallace: can you show me what you used to attach the shock to the frame?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dual Suspension Chinese Carbon  29er-1.jpg  

    Dual Suspension Chinese Carbon  29er-2.jpg  


  140. #140
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    Did you find that your pivots were greased when the frame arrived?

    Have you noticed if you can cycle the pivots manually? When our frame first arrived I couldn't until I lubed all the pivots.

    It takes some doing to get the rear derailleur dialed in since at least with the xt e-mount we used the cable clamping bolt was not readily accessible. I also had to adjust the angle of the front der using a couple of washers under the frame mount.

    To mount the shock you need the rockshox m8x22.2mm kits for both the upper and lower mounts:

    Universal Cycles -- Rock Shox Monarch/Vivid/Ario 3.2 Mount Kits

    I used m8x40mm bolts for both the mounts. For the upper mount I used a m8 lock nut and for the lower mount nut I MacGyvered something together using a brass threaded insert as shown in the attached image:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dual Suspension Chinese Carbon  29er-photo.jpg  

    Last edited by nbwallace; 01-19-2012 at 05:10 PM.

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    Thanks nbwallace, very ingenious, I could not think of anything for the lower mount nut.
    About pivots, I also noticed some clutch in motion, what kind of lube did you use?

  142. #142
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    A bit of Polylube

    Quote Originally Posted by LoAl View Post
    Thanks nbwallace, very ingenious, I could not think of anything for the lower mount nut.
    About pivots, I also noticed some clutch in motion, what kind of lube did you use?
    I used polylube, but I'd guess any waterproof or synthetic grease would be fine.

    For the part I showed in the photo above I started with these:

    Amazon.com: E-Z LOK Threaded Insert For Hard Wood, M8-1.25 Int Thread - Brass (Pack of 10): Industrial & Scientific

    I threaded one onto an M8 bolt and put the bolt in a drill chuck (I used an air drill) I spun it up and filed off the outer threads. I had to cut it off a bit too. I'm rather proud of myself for coming up with the idea of a makeshift lathe.

    I found a pre-made fitting online in titanium somewhere. If someone knows of a bike with an 8mm lower link, one could probably order the through bolts for that setup.

  143. #143
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    Anybody else order one of these frames? Any updates from those that did? Do any of the vendors offer a kit for the shock mounts?

    The discussions on the pivots and the shock hardware keep pushing me away from this frame, but then the prices on similar branded frames bring me back to it. That along with there's limited options for 135mm rear and standard bottom bracket since most vendors are moving on from that.

  144. #144
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    Lack of shock kit is a major turnoff.

  145. #145
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    I'm waiting for the frame. We'll see how I make do with the shock mount

  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiro View Post
    I'm waiting for the frame. We'll see how I make do with the shock mount
    Could you make some pictures of the (disassembled) suspension pivots if possible? I'd like to know if there is any way to put a delrin bushing in there.

  147. #147
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    Hi guys, I have one of these also, im wondering what shocks your all using on yours?
    I'm just about to order my replacement as I had a 190mm i2i on my Gary Fisher and its much bigger, it looks like it should be 184mm so im surprised at the start of the thread you put on a 165mm ???

    Thanks

  148. #148
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    Ok i couldnt see the geometry diagram on page 1, cheers anyway chaps.

  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by eliflap View Post
    165mm eye to eye

    1950 g the weight in 17,5"

    rear skewer 135mm not 142 , as you can see on picture ( normal mtb )
    Hrmm...this is one high maintenance frameset.

  150. #150
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    WTF? After all I contributed to this thread I get neg rep for a "douchy comment".

  151. #151
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    I removed the shock and measured i2i on the frame fully extended and it was roughly 185mm, that's a big difference between that and a 165mm shock?
    Has anyone tried a 184mm shock?
    I'm worried about running a 165mm shock and being too slack?
    Anyone else measured there frame i2i?

  152. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by two-one View Post
    Could you make some pictures of the (disassembled) suspension pivots if possible? I'd like to know if there is any way to put a delrin bushing in there.
    Second on additional pics of the pivots if possible. Some of the discussions about the pivots have me concerned.

    I'm tempted to order one of these for the price to get me through the season till I can splurge for a carbon Tallboy build. I have a shock of my broken canzo which has the same eye to eye and should be close on the tune which should work. If they would offer a shock mount kit I'd prob give it a try but I don't want to deal with scrounging for parts to make the bike usable.

    Doesn't seem like many have bought or had much to say about this frame...

  153. #153
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    If you look at my previous posts it's not such a big deal

    I agree the lack of shock hardware is really annoying. I should probably talk to the folks at ICAN about it.

    That said, the shock hardware isn't such a big deal. Two off the shelf hardware kits from UniversalCycles.com a couple of m8 socket head bolts an m8 lock nut and something to hold the lower bolt. If you ask nicely for $10 plus shipping I'll make you one. I wish I had stainless steel then I could try anodizing.

    I really wish I had a lathe then I could be cranking these things out. I bet if someone knew what they were called we could find them online, or see if you can find a bike with m8 shock mounts and see what they used. I'm guessing something from Intense or Fisher would probably work.

    Eric loves his dually and is working hard to lighten it. The weight to dollar ratio of this frame is hard to ignore especially if you have a shock laying around.

  154. #154
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    I used the kit from a yetti, its the same as ones from my Gary fisher 292 if that helps

  155. #155
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    Thanks for the replies regarding the hardware. That and the pivots have me concerned. In the past budget options generally end up being more of a headache and causing more problems than money saved so I'm def hesitating. Although at $800 shipped with a headset and having a shock that should work makes it tough to pass up, I could swing a new road frame and single speed frame too for that price...

  156. #156
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    If you go to www . Flyxii . Com its only $700 posted

  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by vwsurfbum View Post
    If you go to www . Flyxii . Com its only $700 posted
    There website doesn't seem to want to open for me right now. I'll have to try again later. I was quoted $700 for the frame, $15 for the headset and $85 for shipping from Hungfu.

  158. #158
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    I'll pm you the link. As im a newbie it won't let me post links yet

  159. #159
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    Sorry it won't let me pm yet either! Lol

    if you do manage to get on to the site, go to bike parts, mtb frames, 2nd page.

  160. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by vwsurfbum View Post
    Sorry it won't let me pm yet either! Lol

    if you do manage to get on to the site, go to bike parts, mtb frames, 2nd page.
    Page is working now. I'm going to assume it's going to be pretty much all the same pricing and details as hungfu but I'll email them too. Thanks!

  161. #161
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    It was $700 delivered inc headset to the UK

  162. #162
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    OK i have measured my shock again

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    i also got hold of a 165mm shock. has anyone else checked their i2i yet?

  164. #164
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    Right so today i was going to try a 184mm shock, but did get to try a few other things.
    First off measured again the i2i

    picked up a 165mm shock off a friend, as thats what you lot are using.


    before swapping them over i measured the head angle, 75'
    so i put the 165mm shock on.

    so not only does it have to move quite a long way in (so loosing travel) it decreases the head angle by 5'

    So i'm going to order the Monarch 184mm shock

    In the mean time i took some photos in the snow.




  165. #165
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    75 degrees headtube angle? Thats a bit excessive, isn't it? I'd stick with the 165 shock!

  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by vwsurfbum View Post
    It was $700 delivered inc headset to the UK
    So do their prices listed include shipping? I did email them but didn't hear anything back from them yet. If it can get it for $700 delivered I might just have to give it a try.

    Your build looks good. How did you fair out with the shock mounting?

    I agree with the 75 degree head angle being a bit much. Any ride comparison with the 165mm and 184mm? What are your thoughts on the build overall?

  167. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by finny1999 View Post
    So do their prices listed include shipping? I did email them but didn't hear anything back from them yet. If it can get it for $700 delivered I might just have to give it a try.

    Your build looks good. How did you fair out with the shock mounting?

    I agree with the 75 degree head angle being a bit much. Any ride comparison with the 165mm and 184mm? What are your thoughts on the build overall?
    yes the prices include shipping.

    It bugged me that much about the head angle, just went out to the shed.
    Right measured it on the sanctions at 72' with the longer shock. so withe the 184 I would guestimate at 71' ish??

  168. #168
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    Sorry. The shock mounting is easy, normal 8mm Allen headed bolts and 20mm fixxings

  169. #169
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    Thanks for the info and updates. Looks like if I can't find a decent deal on a Tallboy over the next few weeks I'll order one of these to get me by.

  170. #170
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    After todays ride in the snow we managed to weigh all our bikes. So Inc 2.4 big ass mountain kings (with tubes) V8 pedals and light fittings it comes in at

  171. #171
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    Are the headtubes on these tapered or stright 1 1/8th?

  172. #172
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    tapered

  173. #173
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    Sorry for the noobish questions but im new to full suspension biked and am wanting to build one off this frame. Will a 2x7.5 fox rear shock work with this bike?

  174. #174
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    No thats too long, thats what i'm using until i get my new one.

  175. #175
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    so i'm guessing a 6.5 is what i should be looking for?

  176. #176
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    I think its a 7.25, but i havent had a chance to try it yet.

  177. #177
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  178. #178
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    I think

    Chinese frame it resembles that of the spark rc 29. angle is also similar.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by wiro; 02-14-2012 at 03:59 PM.

  179. #179
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    And the Chinese one

    Dual Suspension Chinese Carbon  29er-imageuploadedbytapatalk1329260768.672920.jpg

  180. #180
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    Ok so I ordered a 184mm fox RP2 so I'll update you if it fits or not

  181. #181
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    sorry, but why do you insist on putting a different length shock as what it was intended for...I don't get it???

  182. #182
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    I couldn't get the correct information.(I already had this frame before stumbling across this site) I was measuring it i2i on the frame.
    But as the new shock arrived today, it definitely didn't fit, about 2mm too big.
    So now going to get the Scott nude shock as that's 165 and all the internal routing is there for it.

  183. #183
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    I see.

    Is it possible to get the nude shock alone?

    all the internal routing for it? that's further proof that this "mystery frame" is in fact a Scott Spark copy...

  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by wedge View Post
    I see.

    Is it possible to get the nude shock alone?

    all the internal routing for it? that's further proof that this "mystery frame" is in fact a Scott Spark copy...
    It's actually more of a superfly100 copy without the ABP... the geometry matches up pretty well. But I will stay away from this frame for next couple of months, untill I know how it holds up. I'm still unsure which pivots contain bearings, and which don't.

  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by vwsurfbum View Post

    In the mean time i took some photos in the snow.

    If you have a bike where the brake and gear cables are routed underneath the bottom bracket there needs to be a loop of cable beneath the bottom bracket, so that when the suspension is fully compressed the cables don't pull tight. The cables need to be long enough so that they don't touch the frame at full compression.

    If the cables pull tight when the suspension compresses then it will wear a groove in the bottom bracket shell. It can also cause ghost shifting and possibly damage the cables too.

    The picture below shows the cable routing beneath a Specialized Epic's bottom bracket. It looks like your frame probably needs similar cable routing also.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dual Suspension Chinese Carbon  29er-2009_epic_bottom_bracket.jpg  


  186. #186
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    you can buy this one on German ebay! looks familiar!

  187. #187
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    one more post

  188. #188
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  189. #189
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    here the colored versions! 1799€. WOW.

    Best-Bike-Parts

  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by boseta View Post
    here the colored versions! 1799€. WOW.

    Best-Bike-Parts
    Paint is expensive

  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by WR304 View Post
    If you have a bike where the brake and gear cables are routed underneath the bottom bracket there needs to be a loop of cable beneath the bottom bracket, so that when the suspension is fully compressed the cables don't pull tight. The cables need to be long enough so that they don't touch the frame at full compression.

    If the cables pull tight when the suspension compresses then it will wear a groove in the bottom bracket shell. It can also cause ghost shifting and possibly damage the cables too.

    The picture below shows the cable routing beneath a Specialized Epic's bottom bracket. It looks like your frame probably needs similar cable routing also.
    The cables to the rear mech is fine with its internal routing but the rear brake hose needs to be about 2-3" longer. thats next weeks job.

    Quote Originally Posted by wedge
    I see.

    Is it possible to get the nude shock alone?

    all the internal routing for it? that's further proof that this "mystery frame" is in fact a Scott Spark copy...
    There is a guy selling a new one with switch gear on ebay.co.uk
    Its closer to the scott than the GF with its internal cable routing and 165mm rear shock
    I have a Fox RL on there at the moment and it works a treat.
    Once i'm off death row (i have man flu) i will get some pictures up of the pivots etc.

  192. #192
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    hmmm, this Santa Cruz is making these "cheap chinese 29er duallies" look not so cheap. $1050 frame with shock

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    I don't think that is for the carbon SC.

  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowOnO2 View Post
    I don't think that is for the carbon SC.
    It's not, but at 5.9 lb frame weight and dual suspension, does it matter that it's not carbon?

  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by emu26 View Post
    It's not, but at 5.9 lb frame weight and dual suspension, does it matter that it's not carbon?
    Salsa already had that covered with the Spearfish

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    Quote Originally Posted by emu26 View Post
    It's not, but at 5.9 lb frame weight and dual suspension, does it matter that it's not carbon?
    Yes, or at least for some of us. I haven't looked at this thread solely because of price or weight, but because i'm interested in the durability and ride qualities that carbon has to offer at a reasonable price.

    If weight is your primary objective as mentioned there is the spearfish for the same money and the anthem x for not much more. From the talk on the $1050 Santa Cruz offering it is a budget option with a single pivot and if its anything like it's 26er version a flexy bike especially in the larger sizes. I'm not sure if the carbon frames in this thread are any better or not as there has been much feedback or comparisons but in theory this carbon frame should be much stiffer and more durable that what other $1000 offering are. Only time will tell on that one though.

  197. #197
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    yep. people need to start realize that light weight is not the only thing carbon has to offer.

  198. #198
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    3300 € on ebay. Specialized pricing on chinese frame. not bad!!! 29er Full Suspension Carbon 29 Zoll MTB- 11,6kg - 17,5" NEU | eBay

  199. #199
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    FYI, this has already been reported.

    EDIT: Incase you are wondering what this is about, there were three spam posts above it. Why this post was not removed with them, is anybody's guess.
    Last edited by MagicCarpet; 02-26-2012 at 07:06 PM.

  200. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by wedge View Post
    yep. people need to start realize that light weight is not the only thing carbon has to offer.
    Wedge I am well aware of that but I started this thread more from a price point than a carbon point of view. My 26" hardtail is carbon not al or steel because it is complient where I want it to be and stiff as a board where it should be.

    The compliance of carbon is lost here because it is a thread about duallies as opposed to the other 29er cheap chinese carbon thread which is about hardtails.

    The mistake I have clearly made in my last post is not appreciating how flexy the santa cruz is feared to be and if it is flexy then obviously the carbon frame will trump it. From a price perspective though my last comment stands true, at $800 + shock + pivot bearings etc, the chinese carbon duallie is no longer "cheap" in comparison to the $1050 Santa Cruz that comes with a warranty that I think most of us would trust.

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