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  1. #1
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    Does this 29er hardtail exist?

    I've got a Chameleon right now that I'm not in love with. Namely, the 73 STA is atrocious - it makes the bike climb worse than my Nomad.

    I know exactly what I'd like for a replacement hardtail frame, but I don't think anyone makes it:

    *material: aluminum (weight)
    *HTA: ~65 degrees
    *STA (effective): 76-77 degrees
    ETT: 590-600mm (medium)
    ST Length: 420-440mm (medium)
    BB: threaded
    seatpost diameter: 31.6mm
    Fork size: 140-160mm
    Wheels: 29x2.5

    Pipedream Moxie probably comes closest, but is steel, a bit too long, and has a 30.9 seatpost. Next best looks to be a Commencal Meta AM HT which fails the STA criteria (only 74).

    Am I looking for a unicorn?

  2. #2
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    Give up a couple degrees here and a few millimeters there, and the Nukeproof Scout 290 ticks most of your boxes.

    Scout 290 Frame only 2019 | Nukeproof
    The cake is a lie.

  3. #3
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    You can compromise on the seat post size. You can sell whatever post you're using now and buy a different size at somewhat of a loss.

    Is there any way you can nudge the seat forward on the rails? What seatpost do you have? Is it possible, and what affect would it have, to run the seatpost backwards?

  4. #4
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    Vassago Radimus

    HA 67
    SA 74
    ETT 600
    CS 420
    Threaded BB
    Ti frame
    Seat post 30.9



    Radimus Ti Frame
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Vassago Radimus

    HA 67
    SA 74
    ETT 600
    CS 420
    Threaded BB
    Ti frame
    Seat post 30.9



    Radimus Ti Frame
    ETT is 625 on the medium there...


    Transition Vanquish may come closer
    Riding: '91 Carbon Epic Stumpjumper w/1" Slicks and a Rack on the Back

  6. #6
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    This would be an interesting test with a friend. In riding gear, seated, check the actual seat angle of the hardtail vs the sagged actual seat angle of the Nomad.
    Just like a raindrop, I was born to fall.

  7. #7
    KVV
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Vassago Radimus

    HA 67
    SA 74
    ETT 600
    CS 420
    Threaded BB
    Ti frame
    Seat post 30.9



    Radimus Ti Frame
    The geo is measured with 20% sag. Unsagged ST angle will be like ~72.6. But will be close to perfect with 120mm fork.

    May I add to requirements:
    - non-boost dropouts (or support for both)
    - 31.6 ST, again
    - external cable routing, except for dropper

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by IPA Rider View Post
    ETT is 625 on the medium there...


    Transition Vanquish may come closer
    and is 600 on the small. Size is but a label. I ride a small Vassago, Medium Epic, and Large 5010. All ETT are with in 8 mm of each other.
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andeh View Post
    I've got a Chameleon right now that I'm not in love with. Namely, the 73 STA is atrocious - it makes the bike climb worse than my Nomad.

    I know exactly what I'd like for a replacement hardtail frame, but I don't think anyone makes it:

    *material: aluminum (weight)
    *HTA: ~65 degrees
    *STA (effective): 76-77 degrees
    ETT: 590-600mm (medium)
    ST Length: 420-440mm (medium)
    BB: threaded
    seatpost diameter: 31.6mm
    Fork size: 140-160mm
    Wheels: 29x2.5

    Pipedream Moxie probably comes closest, but is steel, a bit too long, and has a 30.9 seatpost. Next best looks to be a Commencal Meta AM HT which fails the STA criteria (only 74).

    Am I looking for a unicorn?
    Are your figures at sag? Chromag has a couple pretty close 76/77 seat angle static on an HT narrows the field considerably. Iíd check Pole and Sick for that. At sag Chromag gets your SA into that zone but HA would be a little steeper.

  10. #10
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    I think you are looking for a unicorn mostly due to the eTT. Have you tried a longer eTT?

  11. #11
    KVV
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93EXCivic View Post
    I think you are looking for a unicorn mostly due to the eTT. Have you tried a longer eTT?
    I think this is an excellent point. With my average 5.9 sizing, moving saddle forward by 12mm increased effective SA angle by 1 degree. Then just 10mm shorter stem. You're still centered on the bike, and most people will like the longer reach.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andeh View Post
    I've got a Chameleon right now that I'm not in love with. Namely, the 73 STA is atrocious - it makes the bike climb worse than my Nomad.

    I know exactly what I'd like for a replacement hardtail frame, but I don't think anyone makes it:

    *material: aluminum (weight)
    *HTA: ~65 degrees
    *STA (effective): 76-77 degrees
    ETT: 590-600mm (medium)
    ST Length: 420-440mm (medium)
    BB: threaded
    seatpost diameter: 31.6mm
    Fork size: 140-160mm
    Wheels: 29x2.5

    Pipedream Moxie probably comes closest, but is steel, a bit too long, and has a 30.9 seatpost. Next best looks to be a Commencal Meta AM HT which fails the STA criteria (only 74).

    Am I looking for a unicorn?
    Scratch that the new Rootdown is pretty much exactly what you want.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Vassago Radimus

    HA 67
    SA 74
    ETT 600
    CS 420
    Threaded BB
    Ti frame
    Seat post 30.9



    Radimus Ti Frame
    Finally, a trail hard tail with two bottle mounts in the triangle! Take my money!!!!

  14. #14
    KVV
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    Quote Originally Posted by geraldooka View Post
    scratch that the new rootdown is pretty much exactly what you want.
    pf bb92

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Vassago Radimus

    HA 67
    SA 74
    ETT 600
    CS 420
    Threaded BB
    Ti frame
    Seat post 30.9



    Radimus Ti Frame
    Been looking for reviews...not much out there I could find
    Riding: '91 Carbon Epic Stumpjumper w/1" Slicks and a Rack on the Back

  16. #16
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    Well you donít need to worry about having a threaded BB with a pinion trans :-p but this ones a little longer than preferred ett too

    https://nordestcycles.com/en/product/lacrau-ti-frame


    Does this 29er hardtail exist?-48b3c333-5351-4b4f-8154-a0beee7cc4b5.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Does this 29er hardtail exist?-dsc_9148.jpg  


  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknownRider View Post
    Well you donít need to worry about having a threaded BB with a pinion trans :-p but this ones a little longer than preferred ett too

    https://nordestcycles.com/en/product/lacrau-ti-frame


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Itís available without the Pinion and is quite a bit slacker at sub 64 static I think it was 63.5!

    Re Chromag PF I wouldnít want it either but if a bike met all my other requirements I wouldnít not buy it because of the PF.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    You can compromise on the seat post size. You can sell whatever post you're using now and buy a different size at somewhat of a loss.

    Is there any way you can nudge the seat forward on the rails? What seatpost do you have? Is it possible, and what affect would it have, to run the seatpost backwards?
    Fair point about seatpost dia. That's definitely the 1 spot that would be easiest to compromise on, especially given how cheap OneUp posts are.

    My Chameleon with a 620mm reach and a 40mm stem already has the seat all the way forward on the rails, compared to my Nomad with 580mm reach and a 50mm stem which has it mostly back. The distance from bars to saddle are within a few mm of each other but the pedaling efficiency of the Chameleon feels noticeably worse, given the seat being further back from the BB. I've demo'd bikes with "new" geometry (Transition Sentinel, GG Trail Pistol) and steep STAs and the pedaling feels way better.

    Chromag doesn't look half bad other than the PF BB. Running it with a 140 fork instead of the 160 it's dimensioned with would steepen up both HTA & HTA a tad.

  19. #19
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    Does this 29er hardtail exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andeh View Post
    Fair point about seatpost dia. That's definitely the 1 spot that would be easiest to compromise on, especially given how cheap OneUp posts are.

    My Chameleon with a 620mm reach and a 40mm stem already has the seat all the way forward on the rails, compared to my Nomad with 580mm reach and a 50mm stem which has it mostly back. The distance from bars to saddle are within a few mm of each other but the pedaling efficiency of the Chameleon feels noticeably worse, given the seat being further back from the BB. I've demo'd bikes with "new" geometry (Transition Sentinel, GG Trail Pistol) and steep STAs and the pedaling feels way better.

    Chromag doesn't look half bad other than the PF BB. Running it with a 140 fork instead of the 160 it's dimensioned with would steepen up both HTA & HTA a tad.
    Run at 140 the new Rootdown is exactly in within your listed spec. Plenty of folks run PF B.B. I wouldnít let that hold you back. Build er up and post pics!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by wollongongdave View Post
    Finally, a trail hard tail with two bottle mounts in the triangle! Take my money!!!!
    The Radiums has 2 in the triangle and one more under the downtube.
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by IPA Rider View Post
    Been looking for reviews...not much out there I could find
    The frame is new and Vassago is small outfit so no big magazine reviews. What I do know it Vassago makes nice bikes and this really an evolution of the Optimus Ti frame with a more "enduro bro" geomentry. Tom (the owner) has been riding a prototype around for a year. I have ridden with Tom on some his local stuff and it is chunky. My Verhauen handles it, but his "enduro bro" bike with 140mm fork and dropper post ate it all up.
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    The frame is new and Vassago is small outfit so no big magazine reviews. What I do know it Vassago makes nice bikes and this really an evolution of the Optimus Ti frame with a more "enduro bro" geomentry. Tom (the owner) has been riding a prototype around for a year. I have ridden with Tom on some his local stuff and it is chunky. My Verhauen handles it, but his "enduro bro" bike with 140mm fork and dropper post ate it all up.
    Reading around their frames seem to have a super solid rep...but a thoughtful ride report or two would helpful, no need for BIKEMAG...

    and...I think even speculation about how it compares to the Vanquish could be at least entertaining (for me)...

    also - Tom, I'd be happy to demo!
    Riding: '91 Carbon Epic Stumpjumper w/1" Slicks and a Rack on the Back

  23. #23
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    Namely, the 73 STA is atrocious - it makes the bike climb worse than my Nomad
    Chiming in to say that I found this funny. Seems STA is all the rage these days.

    Remember: Unlike a F/S bike, hardtail's geometry steepens when you get on it. That 73* STA is more like 74.5* when you're on the bike. (HTA also steepens by the same amount - which is why hardtails are becoming noticeably slacker - my Ragley BigWig has a 64.5* HTA with a 140 fork, which equates to a wonderful 66* while riding it).

    More importantly, a hardtail does not further squat under the weight of the rider when climbing steep hills. I believe it was mentioned earlier in this thread, but I bet your effective STA - when climbing - is likely steeper than that of your Nomad.

    Either way - there are a bunch of fun, rowdy hardtails these days. You've gotten several excellent suggestions thus far. Don't be afraid to look at UK brands - they seem to have been the earliest adopters on the LLS hardtail trend.
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 06HokieMTB View Post
    Either way - there are a bunch of fun, rowdy hardtails these days. You've gotten several excellent suggestions thus far. Don't be afraid to look at UK brands - they seem to have been the earliest adopters on the LLS hardtail trend.
    Was riding with a guy from Scotland yesterday and we had this exact conversation. He was surprised to see similar sorts of hardtails in the states, and we even saw a guy with a British hardtail (Stanton) he had no idea you could get stateside, which prompted the conversation. He also questioned me on why I was building a similar sort of hardtail frame (Guerrilla Gravity Pedalhead) instead of a FS bike.

  25. #25
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    I think this is exactly what you are looking for:
    https://www.orangebikes.co.uk/bikes/crush-29-frame/2019
    by Silentfoe
    I'm satisfied knowing that what I wear during my "day" job makes me more of a man than you'll ever be.

  26. #26
    KVV
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Was riding with a guy from Scotland yesterday and we had this exact conversation. He was surprised to see similar sorts of hardtails in the states, and we even saw a guy with a British hardtail (Stanton) he had no idea you could get stateside, which prompted the conversation. He also questioned me on why I was building a similar sort of hardtail frame (Guerrilla Gravity Pedalhead) instead of a FS bike.
    I have Slackline 631. What is the problem There is even a bike shop in the Seattle area that imports Stanton Being said that, I disagree with the geo of all current stantons. I wish there was something like Vanquish. BTW I had a parking lot test on the Vanquish and it didn't feel as good as my old 26" Slackline is. I'm starting to worry that carbon frames just don't have this amazing compliance of the good steel or ti.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 06HokieMTB View Post
    Chiming in to say that I found this funny. Seems STA is all the rage these days.

    Remember: Unlike a F/S bike, hardtail's geometry steepens when you get on it. That 73* STA is more like 74.5* when you're on the bike. (HTA also steepens by the same amount - which is why hardtails are becoming noticeably slacker - my Ragley BigWig has a 64.5* HTA with a 140 fork, which equates to a wonderful 66* while riding it).

    More importantly, a hardtail does not further squat under the weight of the rider when climbing steep hills. I believe it was mentioned earlier in this thread, but I bet your effective STA - when climbing - is likely steeper than that of your Nomad
    Some manufacturers list the angles @ 20% fork sag or similar though. Sometimes the issue is if itís not stated then you canít always be 100% sure if the numbers are at sag or not unless you ask and confirm. In otherwords, if itís important to you donít assume.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknownRider View Post
    Some manufacturers list the angles @ 20% fork sag or similar though. Sometimes the issue is if itís not stated then you canít always be 100% sure if the numbers are at sag or not unless you ask and confirm. In otherwords, if itís important to you donít assume.
    This is true on occasion. I find most post static.

    Lucky for me, Ragley makes it quite clear on my BigWig

    Bigwig 29″ Frame 2017 | Ragley Bikes

    Geo with 130mm fork
    ē Head Angle: 65˚Static (66.5˚ Sagged at 25%)
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

  29. #29
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    canfield epo is close. Maybe add a works angleset to get the HTA you want http://canfieldbrothers.com/frames/e...-hardtail-29er

    In my area someone is selling a used medium for $400

  30. #30
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    Also check out Bird, Orange, Whyte, Pole and Nukeproof

  31. #31
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    Iím surprised Capt. Obvious didnít pop in and note that any number of places would be happy to build that for you.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by hambocairns View Post
    Also check out Bird, Orange, Whyte, Pole and Nukeproof
    I didn't realize Pole made a hard tail... the Taival looks really nice.

  33. #33
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    It misses the unicorn bar on a number of points though

    and that stack number ...

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