A Carbon fiber RIP9 !!!???- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    A Carbon fiber RIP9 !!!???

    No, I didnít hear about a carbon fiber RIP9 coming out soon, sorry

    However, I recently tried a Blur XC carbon. It was so great, so strong that I thought about going back to 26er. But no, it's a silly idea as I could just get a Tallboy frame.

    I currently own a very XC-oriented RIP9 - Reba 100 mm front, SRAM X0, FSA K-force crankset, Mavic C29ssmax, etc, but still 28 pounds. I would keep all the same components which mean a 2 - 2.5 pounds diet as the RIP9 frame is 7.5 pounds (medium). No complain about it except that it is heavy.

    I didnít see many comparisons of the Tallboy and RIP9 but to me the Santa Cruz bike is the carbon fiber equivalent of the Niner bike. Look at the pics below, almost same frame design, almost same VPP/CVA suspension, but 33 % less weight and a bit less travel.

    I enjoy going as fast as I can uphill and through rough stuff, sit and spin style. I donít care about speed downhill. I expect the Tallboy would feel more flickable, more snappy, lighter going uphill than the RIP9.

    But Iím wondering if the Tallboy will be a real ďimprovementĒ, a better/faster ride over the RIP9 or will it be a mistake and Iíll end up disappointed, thinking I only changed four quarters for one dollar ?

    Not interested by the Superfly 100 or any other aluminium bike, useless to suggest then.

    Share your experience riding these bikes, opinions. Thanks
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails A Carbon fiber RIP9 !!!???-t3.jpg  

    A Carbon fiber RIP9 !!!???-t4.jpg  


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    "thinking I only changed four quarters for one dollar ?"

    I think the exchange rate may be a little higher than that as the TB is perty spendy and used bikes sell for much less than you have invested.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menzo
    No, I didnít hear about a carbon fiber RIP9 coming out soon, sorry

    However, I recently tried a Blur XC carbon. It was so great, so strong that I thought about going back to 26er. But no, it's a silly idea as I could just get a Tallboy frame.

    I currently own a very XC-oriented RIP9 - Reba 100 mm front, SRAM X0, FSA K-force crankset, Mavic C29ssmax, etc, but still 28 pounds. I would keep all the same components which mean a 2 - 2.5 pounds diet as the RIP9 frame is 7.5 pounds (medium). No complain about it except that it is heavy.

    I didnít see many comparisons of the Tallboy and RIP9 but to me the Santa Cruz bike is the carbon fiber equivalent of the Niner bike. Look at the pics below, almost same frame design, almost same VPP/CVA suspension, but 33 % less weight and a bit less travel.

    I enjoy going as fast as I can uphill and through rough stuff, sit and spin style. I donít care about speed downhill. I expect the Tallboy would feel more flickable, more snappy, lighter going uphill than the RIP9.

    But Iím wondering if the Tallboy will be a real ďimprovementĒ, a better/faster ride over the RIP9 or will it be a mistake and Iíll end up disappointed, thinking I only changed four quarters for one dollar ?

    Not interested by the Superfly 100 or any other aluminium bike, useless to suggest then.

    Share your experience riding these bikes, opinions. Thanks
    Why not just build your XC oriented RIP to 26 pounds? It can be done with careful wheel and parts selection.

    BB

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    thinking I only changed four quarters for one dollar ?"
    I mean I will feel like the Tallboy is not an added value (not money) or both bike are identical on the trail.

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    good question I have thought about this alot, and couldn't come to a resolution, so I bought a specialzed s-works stumjupmer hardtail that is 19.8ish pounds.........

    my large rip is 27.3 with no super weight weenie wheels, i am pretty sure i can get it to 26.3-4ish with stans 29er race wheels and maxxis aspen tires......


    guitar ted's site and another poster mentioned they had to dial up propedal to level 2 to get control of suspension bob on the tallboy......i owned a jet and got my rip on exchange, the additional travle of the rip over the jet is a signficant improvement over the jet through the rough stuff, so this fact with the tallboy having an inch less travel and maybe a suspension not quite as sweet as the rip I am probably just gonna pass on the tallboy, and like Bruce says get some 29er race wheels and get it down to 26ish pounds and enjoy the extra inch of travel on both ends for the rip......if a course is really so rough i don't want to ride my superlight hardtail, then it is probably also so rough the longer travel ofthe rip would be much appreciated.......I am an admitted weight weenie, but in reality 2 pounds of non-rotating weight doesn't make all that much difference on a mtb, some yes but not really that dramatic...........2-2.5 pounds on a road bike would be more signficant than a mtb, and also the factor of the extra inch of travel, would offset some of the weight difference as well......

    I think i will keep the rip until someone has a 100mm minimum rear travel carbon fiber, vpp or cva or brain type rear suspension that can be built up to sub 23 lbs.....which i just don't think exist right now, but it will..............the cva is so nice as it remains active on techical climbs and really helps to maintain traction.....i don't think the superfly 100 can do this, the vpp will do it to some degree as well as the horst link, but not as good as the cva.....vpp vs cva is probably pretty darn close, but the comments of needing more propedal for the vpp are discouraging......the cva rides really really good, there a many very positive reviews of niners suspension feel.....

    if you really want to race a full suspension bike I don't think any full suspension except the speialized brain setup allow you to stand and stomp like you do on a hardtail.......i tihnk epic 26er full suspension are building up at 21.5 pounds, seems with similar technology a carbon epic 29er could go sub 23, especially with 1370gram wheelset......it woudl ride more hardtail like, but have suspension when you needed it most, but don't think it could ever be as plush feeling as the cva.......

    as I have mentioned before the bike that would solve all of this for me would be a carbon fiber jet 9 that was sub 5 pounds and had 100mm rear travel..........unfortunately this bike doesn't exist, and probably won't for quiet a while......but for niner to stay competitive they will have to offer a carbon jet before too long........

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    Why not just build your XC oriented RIP to 26 pounds? It can be done with careful wheel and parts selection
    Because saving weight is not the main focus here. I want to know whether a 5 pounds carbon fiber VPP frame will be a better ride (mainly going uphill) than a 7.5 pounds CVA aluminium frame ?

    Many people say a sub 6 pounds and 4 inches carbon fiber JET9 (that doesn't exist yet)will be faster than a RIP9... Well that's almost what theTallboy is, isn't it ?

    as I have mentioned before the bike that would solve all of this for me would be a carbon fiber jet 9 that was sub 5 pounds and had 100mm rear travel..........unfortunately this bike doesn't exist, and probably won't for quiet a while......but for niner to stay competitive they will have to offer a carbon jet before too long........
    Sorry I didn't see your reply before I wrote mine. So we are saying almost the same thing. I thing the Tallboy or "future" carbon fiber Jet9 would be identical twins (sub 5 pounds, I doubt it)
    Last edited by Menzo; 02-11-2010 at 02:48 PM.

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    the cva is so nice as it remains active on techical climbs and really helps to maintain traction.....i don't think the superfly 100 can do this, the vpp will do it to some degree as well as the horst link, but not as good as the cva
    Other than marketing purpose, I see absolutely no difference between cva / vpp / dwlink. They are all multi link suspension using a virtual pivot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Menzo
    Because saving weight is not the main focus here. I want to know whether a 5 pounds carbon fiber VPP frame will be a better ride (mainly going uphill) than a 7.5 pounds CVA aluminium frame ?




    Many people say a sub 6 pounds and 4 inches carbon fiber JET9 (that doesn't exist yet)will be faster than a RIP9... Well that's almost what theTallboy is, isn't it ?



    Sorry I didn't see your reply before I wrote mine. So we are saying almost the same thing. I thing the Tallboy or "future" carbon fiber Jet9 would be identical twins (sub 5 pounds, I doubt it)
    arent you saying then that saving weight is the issue ??? wonder of climbing a hill with 2 full water bottles vs climbing wiht no water bottle would be a way to test this ??

    tall boy is said to be 5 pounds

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    Quote Originally Posted by Menzo
    Other than marketing purpose, I see absolutely no difference between cva / vpp / dwlink. They are all multi link suspension using a virtual pivot
    where they are similar designs, but yet still differnent designs, and they will all behave differently, not sure if the differences are perceptible, but I bet they are to some.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Menzo
    Other than marketing purpose, I see absolutely no difference between cva / vpp / dwlink. They are all multi link suspension using a virtual pivot
    You have a lot to learn. That's engineering, not marketing. And of course proprietary designs.
    And you should want a lighter bike if all that you care about is going uphill. That's simple physics brother.

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    maybe...just maybe you could search a bit harder and see the recent thread about switching from a rip9 to a tallboy...

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    What you have now is a bike that deserves to be ridden fast downhill. That build would work out way better on a Tallboy. I think you should get the Tallboy frame and have a 26 lb bike, and then sell me your RIP9 frame.

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    Just got back from doing a big demo on all of my local single track, both up and down, on a XL Santa Cruz TallBoy. I believe mtroy said the bike I rode was 27 or 27.5 pounds? XT build, chub hub up front, DT Swiss 340 with RWS in the rear, Mountain King 2.4 up front, Maxxis Ignitor on back, SPD pedals, thomson seatpost, xc monkeylite flat bars, Fox 100 up front.

    Quick heads up, riding conditions were perfect today, rained 2 days ago, decomposed granite, 90% tacky, tacky, tacky hero dirt, with some 5% silty mud beds still filled with "slick as snot" goopy soup, "yer gonna skate, try to keep it straight" mud. All single track.

    It's fast on climbs, locked down with propedal on, but it's a different kind of fast. It needs propedal, I ran 220 psi in the rear shock, without propedal, if on steep climbs, I blow through a good portion on the RP23. No problems with the front end coming up on steep climbs. SC has a very comfortable seat position on this bike, I absolutely love it as configured.

    If I could use one word, to compare it to my XL 2010 RIP and my Large Atomic Blue V1 RIP, I would have to say the TallBoy Graphite is flickable. Flickable, like your favorite microbrewed beer bottle top, snapped point and shoot style, by your thumb out of your hand around the campfire at your buddies, right where you aim it. Riding a 27 # 29'er in an XL, is about the same as my Hardtail scandium 29'er, so yeah, compared to my Am'ish Full Sus 29'er, this bike is light and flickable.

    Santa Cruz has built in chain suck guard on the bottom of the right chain stay, and a carbon weave/graphite gizmo on the top of the chain stay. This bike is absolutely silent, with zero perceptable chain slap, compared to either of my inner tubed up chain stays on my RIP's We are talking almost Single Speed quiet uber minor chain slap. The linkage just never gets in the way of the chain, near as I could tell or hear. Maybe Carbon is just quieter, with less resonance thru the frame from chain slap?

    I think the RIP has been built more burly, all mountain for 2009/2010. The TallBoy, is a different market segment, in my eyes, more after the XC racer type crowd, a great trail bike, or a very light all mountain type of bike. For my needs, I'd want less pedal strike, even though I would give up a little the way this bike carves going from a 100mm to a 120mm fork. That's just the way it is with the trails I ride around here in So Cal. YMMV, some folks may love the low CG and scalpel like handling the 100mm fork provides, especially if the single track they ride is perhaps covered with smaller diameter rocks than we have locally. I find pedal strikes to be a major turnoff, ever since one of them near The Waterfall up at Downieville almost offed me and raised my voice 3 octaves.

    There is a reason why I say this bike, as configured, carves like a scalpel. We've had, not in our particular area, but here in So Cal, a Phantom Pooper. The kind where you find blind cornered landmines, from my fellow Man, or dog. Todays single track, some of it, is in a very narrow, weavy creek bottom canyon, kind of hard to see too far in front of you, due to turns, natural overgrowth, or objects like rocks sticking dead center out of the middle of the trail. I had come around an S type baby G out going across the stream bed pretty hot, when right dead center, planted between two rocks on the edge of the trail was a steaming coyote dookie. I had no option but to just do the knife edge with the tires around it, and the rocks, threading the needle instinctively, barely missing it's essence on my shoes, shins and the down tube. I had heaved a sigh of relief, when not 20 seconds down the trail was a pair of coyotes, on the single track, that I'd obviously scared, well, you get the picture.

    Rear suspension... they are different, I'm not sure if it's just in my head, or from my old Bionicon days, but to me, the rocker arm style of the Niner RIP, with the longer lower swingarm pivots, just seems a bit more compliant, less kick back, going up over rocks and roots. Then again, it could be the way the dampening is, or that I run my RIP without propedal over almost everything. The RIP feels more efficient, but you feel the weight penalty. The TallBoy, without propedal, does the "Unskinny Bop" when this Clyde is standing and mashing, yet when it's on, the bike accelerates fairly close to a hardtail, almost as snappy.

    I would not sell my RIP for a Tallboy, not at least yet, but if I was coming from a hardtail to getting a FS 29'er, and I had the cabbage, I would look long and hard at Santa Cruz's efforts in the TallBoy, I can see if Carbon doesn't break like Aluminum Jets, and never has welding or heat treating QC issues, it may very well make 6000 and 7000 series aluminum frames fossil relics.

    One last word,This bike is FUN!!!
    Last edited by Boyonabyke; 02-15-2010 at 03:09 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menzo
    Other than marketing purpose, I see absolutely no difference between cva / vpp / dwlink. They are all multi link suspension using a virtual pivot
    Menzo, I was just emailed this link. This is probably the cleanest example of the different suspension systems at work and you can clearly see the difference.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...19#post6592519

    Go to post #22.
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    Questions on this forum may be the last step before I decide to post the Rip9 for sale... stay tune my friend...
    Last edited by Menzo; 02-11-2010 at 06:49 PM.

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    Thanks RandyBoy. Interesting and entertaining comments :-)
    Last edited by Menzo; 02-11-2010 at 06:48 PM.

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    You have a lot to learn. That's engineering, not marketing.
    If you are so good, teach me the difference...brother... I'm here to learn

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    Thank you very much 2melow. That is one of the best reply I ever had. These images really help to understand how a suspension work. It is very appreciated.

    Well, after I read all the replies in this thread, my enthusiasm about the Tallboy and VPP has melted a bit. Maybe status quo is the best option...
    Last edited by Menzo; 02-11-2010 at 07:13 PM.

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    I'm stupid.. please tell me where I can find it :-)

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    I'm glad to hear that the Tallboys out in the real world require PP. When I took one out for a test ride at Interbike last year, I was shocked that a VPP bike would require PP. Not sure why a VPP design is any better than a four bar at that point, pedaling-wise. The handling and weight may still make it worthwhile, but this iteration of VPP sort of defeats the original intent, doesn't it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2TurnersNotEnough
    I'm glad to hear that the Tallboys out in the real world require PP. When I took one out for a test ride at Interbike last year, I was shocked that a VPP bike would require PP. Not sure why a VPP design is any better than a four bar at that point, pedaling-wise. The handling and weight may still make it worthwhile, but this iteration of VPP sort of defeats the original intent, doesn't it?
    according to the link form 2 melow, the cc and ic is all over the place on the santa cruz design, i think this is not a good thing, but not sure..........could this be driving the need for propedal ??

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2melow
    Menzo, I was just emailed this link. This is probably the cleanest example of the different suspension systems at work and you can clearly see the difference.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...19#post6592519

    Go to post #22.
    Thanks for that link. Awesome thread that.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menzo
    No, I didnít hear about a carbon fiber RIP9 coming out soon, sorry

    However, I recently tried a Blur XC carbon. It was so great, so strong that I thought about going back to 26er. But no, it's a silly idea as I could just get a Tallboy frame.

    I currently own a very XC-oriented RIP9 - Reba 100 mm front, SRAM X0, FSA K-force crankset, Mavic C29ssmax, etc, but still 28 pounds. I would keep all the same components which mean a 2 - 2.5 pounds diet as the RIP9 frame is 7.5 pounds (medium). No complain about it except that it is heavy.

    I didnít see many comparisons of the Tallboy and RIP9 but to me the Santa Cruz bike is the carbon fiber equivalent of the Niner bike. Look at the pics below, almost same frame design, almost same VPP/CVA suspension, but 33 % less weight and a bit less travel.

    I enjoy going as fast as I can uphill and through rough stuff, sit and spin style. I donít care about speed downhill. I expect the Tallboy would feel more flickable, more snappy, lighter going uphill than the RIP9.

    But Iím wondering if the Tallboy will be a real ďimprovementĒ, a better/faster ride over the RIP9 or will it be a mistake and Iíll end up disappointed, thinking I only changed four quarters for one dollar ?

    Not interested by the Superfly 100 or any other aluminium bike, useless to suggest then.

    Share your experience riding these bikes, opinions. Thanks

    Dude you need to check out the Kona Hei Hei 29er. Scandium frame. It comes in at 27lbs right out of the package. You could get what you want and save money at the same time.
    We Ride,Repair,and sell bikes. Live,Love,Ride the Dream in Vermont at:http://bikeexpressvt.com

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    IIRC, one of the original factors that distinguished VPP from other designs was that the initial axle path was rearward. This would basically allow the chain tension when you're pedaling to counteract the tendency to "squat" and give you better (i.e. less suspension action) pedaling performance. The downside is that older VPP designs tended to kick the suspension activity back through the pedals and also were not very compliant on small hits.

    Note: I think I have this right, but I'm sure there are others that can explain it better.

    Empirically, the Tallboy is no better than a low pivot design, when it comes to pedal induced squat. I wonder if that means Santa Cruz will come up with some band-aid fix like Specialized did (i.e. the "Brain").

  25. #25
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    Very different bikes. SC TB has steeper HA, lower BB, far more XC than the RIP9.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    Just got back from doing a big demo on all of my local single track, both up and down, on a XL Santa Cruz TallBoy. I will be dropping a "FoShizzlesk" ProReview. I believe mtroy said the bike I rode was 26.5 or 27.5 pounds? XT build, chub hub up front, DT Swiss 340 with RWS in the rear, Mountain King 2.4 up front, Maxis Ignitor on back, SPD pedals, thomson seatpost, xc monkeylite flat bars, Fox 100 up front.

    Quick heads up, riding conditions were peeeeeerfect today, rained 2 days ago, decomposed granite, 90% tacky, tacky, tacky hero dirt, with some 5% silty mud beds still filled with "slick as snot" goopy soup, "yer gonna skate, try to keep it straight" mud. All single track.

    It's fast on climbs, locked down with propedal on, but it's a different kind of fast. It needs propedal, I ran 220 psi in the rear shock, without propedal, if on steep climbs, I blow through a good portion on the RP23. No problems with the front end coming up on steep climbs. SC has a very comfortable seat position on this bike, I absolutely love it as configured.

    If I could use one word, to compare it to my XL 2010 RIP and my Large Atomic Blue V1 RIP, I would have to say the TallBoy Graphite is flickable. Flickable, like your favorite microbrewed beer bottle top, snapped point and shoot style, by your thumb out of your hand around the campfire at your buddies, right where you aim it. Not flickable, like a booger, the kind that's still too moist and a bit sticky.

    Santa Cruz has built in chain suck guard on the bottom of the right chain stay, and a carbon weave/graphite gizmo on the top of the chain stay. This bike is absolutely silent, with zero perceptable chain slap, compared to either of my inner tubed up chain stays on my RIP's We are talking almost Single Speed quiet uber minor chain slap. The linkage just never gets in the way of the chain, near as I could tell or hear. Maybe Carbon is just quieter, with less resonance thru the frame from chain slap?

    I think the RIP has been built more burly, all mountain for 2009/2010. The TallBoy, is a different market segment, in my eyes, more after the Jet racer type crowd, or a very light all mountain type of bike. For my needs, I'd want less pedal strike, even though I would give up a little the way this bike carves going from a 100mm to a 120mm fork. That's just the way it is with the trails I ride around here in So Cal. YMMV, some folks may love the low CG and scalpel like handling the 100mm fork provides, especially if the single track they ride is perhaps covered with smaller diameter rocks than we have locally. I find pedal strikes to be a major turnoff, ever since one of them near The Waterfall up at Downieville almost offed me and raised my voice 3 octaves.

    There is a reason why I say this bike, as configured, carves like a scalpel. We've had, not in our particular area, but here in So Cal, a Phantom Pooper. The kind where you find blind cornered landmines, from my fellow Man, or dog. Todays single track, some of it, is in a very narrow, weavy creek bottom canyon, kind of hard to see too far in front of you, due to turns, natural overgrowth, or objects like rocks sticking dead center out of the middle of the trail. I had come around an S type baby G out going across the stream bed pretty hot, when right dead center, planted between two rocks on the edge of the trail was a steaming coyote dookie. I had no option but to just do the knife edge with the tires around it, and the rocks, threading the needle instinctively, barely missing it's essence on my shoes, shins and the down tube. I had heaved a sigh of relief, when not 20 seconds down the trail was a pair of coyotes, on the single track, that I'd obviously scared, well, you get the picture.

    Rear suspension... they are different, I'm not sure if it's just in my head, or from my old Bionicon days, but to me, the rocker arm style of the Niner RIP, with the longer lower swingarm pivots, just seems a bit more compliant, less kick back, going up over rocks and roots. Then again, it could be the way the dampening is, or that I run my RIP without propedal over almost everything. The RIP feels more efficient, but you feel the weight penalty. The TallBoy, without propedal, does the "Unskinny Bop" when this Clyde is standing and mashing.

    I would not sell my RIP for a Tallboy, not at least yet, but if I was coming from a hardtail to getting a FS 29'er, and I had the cabbage, I would look long and hard at Santa Cruz's efforts in the TallBoy, I can see if Carbon doesn't break like Aluminum Jets, and never has welding or heat treating QC issues, it may very well make 6000 and 7000 series aluminum frames fossil relics.

    One last word,This bike is FUN!!!



    Little bit of G out at the bottom here.




    Daddy told me to always wear protection.


    - If it was not said already (because I have not read this entire thread yet) You ran too little air pressure in the RP23. For your weight you should be a minimum of 240psi.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2TurnersNotEnough
    Empirically, the Tallboy is no better than a low pivot design, when it comes to pedal induced squat. I wonder if that means Santa Cruz will come up with some band-aid fix like Specialized did (i.e. the "Brain").

    - No clue where "pedal induced squat" came from with regards to VPP bikes. FSR's yes, VPP no. Unless of course someone were to run too little air in the shock.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMFT
    - No clue where "pedal induced squat" came from with regards to VPP bikes.
    Sounds like typical homer propaganda speech.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duzitall
    Sounds like typical homer propaganda speech.

    Nope, just a bike whore, re-habbed former shop mech. for a decade that tweeks on suspension alot. I like A LOT of bikes, LOVE my RIP9 and LOVE my Tallboy.

    But yeah, I see where you're goin'....

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMFT
    Nope, just a bike whore, re-habbed former shop mech. for a decade that tweeks on suspension alot. I like A LOT of bikes, LOVE my RIP9 and LOVE my Tallboy.

    But yeah, I see where you're goin'....
    Oops, sorry DMFT I led you astray. 2TNE's the homer and as such he knows VPP does not work like a DT/DW

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMFT
    - No clue where "pedal induced squat" came from with regards to VPP bikes. FSR's yes, VPP no. Unless of course someone were to run too little air in the shock.
    Cause I rode one. I haven't mentioned anything about it in other threads up to now because I am still not sure if the shock wasn't set up right. But I feel like my opinions were validated when other people (GT, Randyboy) are saying the same thing (like it really needs Propedal to not bob).

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2TurnersNotEnough
    Cause I rode one. I haven't mentioned anything about it in other threads up to now because I am still not sure if the shock wasn't set up right. But I feel like my opinions were validated when other people (GT, Randyboy) are saying the same thing (like it really needs Propedal to not bob).

    - Let's address the second sentence in my post:
    "Unless of course someone were to run too little air in the shock"

    Randy has stated he is 240lbs. Randy stated he ran 220psi in the shock. Santa Cruz has always had a +/- 5 psi reccomendation for riders to inflate rear shocks to the individuals riding weight. So at a minimum, Randy was 20psi light.

    What bike out there wouldn't squat?

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menzo
    No, I didn’t hear about a carbon fiber RIP9 coming out soon, sorry

    However, I recently tried a Blur XC carbon. It was so great, so strong that I thought about going back to 26er. But no, it's a silly idea as I could just get a Tallboy frame.

    I currently own a very XC-oriented RIP9 - Reba 100 mm front, SRAM X0, FSA K-force crankset, Mavic C29ssmax, etc, but still 28 pounds. I would keep all the same components which mean a 2 - 2.5 pounds diet as the RIP9 frame is 7.5 pounds (medium). No complain about it except that it is heavy.

    I didn’t see many comparisons of the Tallboy and RIP9 but to me the Santa Cruz bike is the carbon fiber equivalent of the Niner bike. Look at the pics below, almost same frame design, almost same VPP/CVA suspension, but 33 % less weight and a bit less travel.

    I enjoy going as fast as I can uphill and through rough stuff, sit and spin style. I don’t care about speed downhill. I expect the Tallboy would feel more flickable, more snappy, lighter going uphill than the RIP9.

    But I’m wondering if the Tallboy will be a real “improvement”, a better/faster ride over the RIP9 or will it be a mistake and I’ll end up disappointed, thinking I only changed four quarters for one dollar ?

    Not interested by the Superfly 100 or any other aluminium bike, useless to suggest then.

    Share your experience riding these bikes, opinions. Thanks
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMFT
    - Let's address the second sentence in my post:
    "Unless of course someone were to run too little air in the shock"

    Randy has stated he is 240lbs. Randy stated he ran 220psi in the shock. Santa Cruz has always had a +/- 5 psi reccomendation for riders to inflate rear shocks to the individuals riding weight. So at a minimum, Randy was 20psi light.

    What bike out there wouldn't squat?
    I certainly wouldn't rule out the shock pressure being too low. As I said, I rode a TB at a demo (Interbike) and, like at a lot of demos, they were a little swamped and weren't being real precise with the bike setup.

    In the 4+ months since the demo, I haven't really wanted to say too much about that because it probably is due to incorrect setup. But I mentioned it now because I thought it was interesting that others (including a prominent 29" blogger) had a similar experience.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2TurnersNotEnough
    I certainly wouldn't rule out the shock pressure being too low. As I said, I rode a TB at a demo (Interbike) and, like at a lot of demos, they were a little swamped and weren't being real precise with the bike setup.

    In the 4+ months since the demo, I haven't really wanted to say too much about that because it probably is due to incorrect setup. But I mentioned it now because I thought it was interesting that others (including a prominent 29" blogger) had a similar experience.

    - No worries Turners. I'm just sayin' set-up is crucial with VPP (and well, other bikes too) to get the absolute most out of it.

    Cheers!

  36. #36
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    I was running the shock pump for Randy and I am not totally positive that it was only 220psi...it may well have been more, but shock sag looked pretty good to our eyes when we were done. We can recreate the ride if we need to to settle the issue.

    However, I have run that shock at 190psi for most of the testing time on it and that is pretty much my exact riding weight. IMO it requires Propedal #2 to settle down from pedaling input. But, some folks may not be bothered by it as it seems the tolerance of pedal bob is kinda wide ranging.

    I hate bob, personally. No offense to Bobs around the world
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtroy
    I was running the shock pump for Randy and I am not totally positive that it was only 220psi...it may well have been more, but shock sag looked pretty good to our eyes when we were done. We can recreate the ride if we need to to settle the issue.

    However, I have run that shock at 190psi for most of the testing time on it and that is pretty much my exact riding weight. IMO it requires Propedal #2 to settle down from pedaling input. But, some folks may not be bothered by it as it seems the tolerance of pedal bob is kinda wide ranging.

    I hate bob, personally. No offense to Bobs around the world
    I seem to recall we made 3 observations at setting the sag correctly, until we were satisfied it was in the proper range, even discussing if a little pressure would be lost removing the pump. But I'm game to recreate testing with proper pressure. Heck yeah, that bike is a FUN ride. So fun, I'm gonna have a hella time prying it out of JeffJ's hands to do over.

    In defense of SC's engineers, I will say that the suspension felt awesome on some freshly potholed single track that some horses had worked over while the trail was still soft, the kind of ride I would really appreciate on a longer ride, say a big Saturday ride, something over 3 or 4 hours. My butt and back appreciate that kind of dampening /valving in a shock at my advanced age.

    While I split my time between a AIR 9 hardtail for XC stuff, and a nice RIP for some of the rougher stuff, I accept the fact that Santa Cruz did right by putting the RP23 shock on there with the Propedal feature. It's there if you want to use it, and its a lot more accessable on the Tallboy than it is on my RIP. No doubt, Santa Cruz has built something really nice here. Find and demo one, see it it's right for you.
    Last edited by Boyonabyke; 02-13-2010 at 09:39 AM.

  38. #38
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    Perhaps the Tallboy requiring pro-pedal position 2 for bob-free long climbs has the added optional benefit of being smoother with PP full off for extended downhill sections? I know I like this option with the 3 position switch on my (budget) Canzo. In fact I almost always ride it in position 2 and the FIT fork low speed compression turned up for bob free mashing.

    The 3 frames I'm most interested in are TB, 429 and Sultan. I will buy the one that's most versatile for me. If maximum versatility requires the occasional flip of the switch (or leaving PP half on) probably would not negatively effect my final choice.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menzo
    Because saving weight is not the main focus here. I want to know whether a 5 pounds carbon fiber VPP frame will be a better ride (mainly going uphill) than a 7.5 pounds CVA aluminium frame ?
    "Better ride mainly going uphill"? The limiting factor being the sustainable power to weight ratio that you as a rider are capable of producing while ascending a climb, what is your description of "better".

    Quote Originally Posted by Menzo
    Many people say a sub 6 pounds and 4 inches carbon fiber JET9 (that doesn't exist yet)will be faster than a RIP9... Well that's almost what theTallboy is, isn't it ?
    A 4" travel bike designed for XC (JET) vs. a 4.7" travel bike designed for more than XC (RIP) that weighs 1.5 pounds per frame more than the JET is faster? Gee.....imagine that? But since a carbon JET does not exist....

    And even if it did, the limiting factor still becomes the power one can sustain for a given duration/distance once the wheels/tires/components are all dialed in for a rider's needs.

    And yes, the Tallboy can be run with 100mm up front or 120mm up front, but still retains the 100mm in the rear. You've got that relationship reversed on your RIP with 100mm up front and 120mm in the rear. Obviously, I would suggest that it is better to compare the Tallboy with 100mm front and rear suspension against the Superfly 100 and the Epic Carbon 29. I'm going with RandyBoy on this, the RIP is in a different category.

    Being the owner and having ridden and raced on my sub 6 pound 4" travel Sugar 293 frame with carbon seatstays, a 4" travel 6.43 pound JET 9 - as well as the heavier/burlier 7.93 pound RIP 9 frame - I wouldn't even compare the lighter 4" race bikes with the meat and taters RIP.

    BB

  40. #40
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    I heard that a carbon rip9 with real 120mm travel instead of 115mm is in teh works. The rumor has it that a carbon jet will have 100mm travel so hold your breath. Manitou 120mm tapered with carbon steerer tube awaits beta tests. This manitou exclusive on carbon rip has over 50mm of offset and the carbon rip9 has 70 HTA. Stay tuned or shoot Ninerbikes with e-mails right now. it's all dandy

  41. #41
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    I'll try to clarify my feeling. Here is a quote from a review written by Grannygear about the Tallboy http://twentynineinches.com/2009/09/...cruz-tall-boy/

    Back to the acceleration thing. Mike Ferrentino, marketing guy for Santa Cruz asked me what I thought about the bike, specifically how it compared to the other Ďlinkí bikes in this arena. I mentioned that in the past there had been that phenomenon I felt where, under standing and pedaling, it felt like I was dragging something behind me. No bob, no dramaÖit just felt uninspiring. He knew exactly what I meant and, in fact, the engineers that were tweaking the Tall Boy had a name for it. They talked about Ďdragging the cinder blockí. The Tall Boy was the first bike, other than the JET to leave me with a positive impression when I stood and got on the gas (and the JET is a bit below the overall trail ability of the Tall Boy)
    That is almost what I feel too and that's why I seriously think about selling the RIP9 to get a Tallboy.

    1) I would like to know if there is other people who shared the same feeling after they had a ride on the Tallboy vs the RIP9.

    2) Why the Tallboy makes you feel like you are not "dragging the cinder block" ? The VPP ? The carbon fiber ? The geometry ? The weight ? What ?

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duzitall
    Perhaps the Tallboy requiring pro-pedal position 2 for bob-free long climbs has the added optional benefit of being smoother with PP full off for extended downhill sections? I know I like this option with the 3 position switch on my (budget) Canzo. In fact I almost always ride it in position 2 and the FIT fork low speed compression turned up for bob free mashing.

    The 3 frames I'm most interested in are TB, 429 and Sultan. I will buy the one that's most versatile for me. If maximum versatility requires the occasional flip of the switch (or leaving PP half on) probably would not negatively effect my final choice.
    I own 2 of those three, and depending on what versatile means to you, is gonna drive your decision. If most of you're riding is on rougher trails with the occasional long, epic ride, I'd recommend the Sultan. Conversely, if you're into doing more rough XC type riding, with the occasional visits to the chunk, the 429 is great. Both pedal really well (the Pivot pedals a little better) and are nice and active while pedaling with minimal to zero bobbing in the middle and small rings (there is definitely more bob when pedaling in the big ring). The Sultan descends great and gets better traction while pedaling out of the saddle.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menzo
    2) Why the Tallboy makes you feel like you are not "dragging the cinder block" ? The VPP ? The carbon fiber ? The geometry ? The weight ? What ?
    Ferrentino said to us at Interbike something to the effect that they stumbled upon a shock rate curve that on paper didn't make any sense at all, but for the 29"er was golden. According to him, the engineers couldn't make it work out in theory, but when they rode the bikes with the "wrong" suspension curve/geometry, they had to admit it was right. Apparently without figuring out this, the project would have been scuttled.
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menzo
    I'll try to clarify my feeling. Here is a quote from a review written by Grannygear about the Tallboy http://twentynineinches.com/2009/09/...cruz-tall-boy/



    That is almost what I feel too and that's why I seriously think about selling the RIP9 to get a Tallboy.

    1) I would like to know if there is other people who shared the same feeling after they had a ride on the Tallboy vs the RIP9.

    2) Why the Tallboy makes you feel like you are not "dragging the cinder block" ? The VPP ? The carbon fiber ? The geometry ? The weight ? What ?
    i think any longer travel full suspension bike is gonna have this feeling to some degree...a 100 travel bike with alot of propedal on should reduce this, but then wont be as plush through the rough stuff as the 120mm bike without propedal on.....the tallboy is shorter travel and therefore undoubtedly less plush than the rip and more plush than the jet.....no full suspension reacts very well to standing and pedalling, with more propedal or more lockout or less travel standing and pedalling will be better and also pretty reliant on pedal technique....



    bottom line i think is if you want a shorter travel little bit more xc oriented bike get the tall boy, if you want a longer travel and little bit plusher handling bike that looks after you well on steeper descents and rock beds then keep the rip...i do not think it is as simple as the tallboy is just a carbon rip......

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Ferrentino said to us at Interbike something to the effect that they stumbled upon a shock rate curve that on paper didn't make any sense at all, but for the 29"er was golden. According to him, the engineers couldn't make it work out in theory, but when they rode the bikes with the "wrong" suspension curve/geometry, they had to admit it was right. Apparently without figuring out this, the project would have been scuttled.
    ... or, that's a great way to say 'we know the secret Coke formula, but we ain't tellin'.


  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnee
    ... or, that's a great way to say 'we know the secret Coke formula, but we ain't tellin'.

    and to complicate matters further, how do you justify coke is better than dr pepper ??

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by suvowner
    and to complicate matters further, how do you justify coke is better than dr pepper ??
    Well, maybe it isn't?

    My dad worked for dr. pepper when I was growing up, I'm biased.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2TurnersNotEnough
    I own 2 of those three, and depending on what versatile means to you, is gonna drive your decision. If most of you're riding is on rougher trails with the occasional long, epic ride, I'd recommend the Sultan. Conversely, if you're into doing more rough XC type riding, with the occasional visits to the chunk, the 429 is great. Both pedal really well (the Pivot pedals a little better) and are nice and active while pedaling with minimal to zero bobbing in the middle and small rings (there is definitely more bob when pedaling in the big ring). The Sultan descends great and gets better traction while pedaling out of the saddle.
    Thanks for the food for thought 2TNE. Fortunately I should be able to test the 429 and Sultan this month. Not sure how I can swing a TB demo right now.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceBrown
    Why not just build your XC oriented RIP to 26 pounds? It can be done with careful wheel and parts selection.

    BB
    just so you know it can be done !! 25.82lbs


    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails A Carbon fiber RIP9 !!!???-rip25mtbr.jpg  

    Last edited by suvowner; 03-07-2010 at 01:49 PM.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by suvowner
    just so you know it can be done !! 25.82lbs


    Nice build. Have you seen the Ti spindle upgrade for the Egg 2Ti's? It would take them down to the same weight as the 4Ti's for another $52. And you can get them in short or extra short to dial in a narrower Q-Factor.

    BB

  51. #51
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    pretty cool ti spindles, have you used them ?

  52. #52
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    just so you know it can be done !! 25.82lbs
    25.82 lbs - 2.5 lbs (Tallboy frame vs 7.5 Niner frame) = 23.32... needless to write more

  53. #53
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by Menzo
    25.82 lbs - 2.5 lbs (Tallboy frame vs 7.5 Niner frame) = 23.32... needless to write more
    i know, i thought about that fact.....it could be gotten under 23 with some lighter bars/grips/pedals/saddle......and sram xx.....

    but there are now more reports of superfly 100 failures, and now a santa cruz first year 29er carbon and only a 2 year warranty, as much as i want a carbon 29er full suspension, i still think the smart play is to wait a bit longer......2.5 lbs of non-rotating weight and an inch less travel....a suspension that requires alot of propedal to control bob......i think the rip will be good enough for me for a while longer....it is painful to hear rocks hit carbon mtb frames....

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by suvowner
    pretty cool ti spindles, have you used them ?
    I have not as I use the Xpedo with SPD clips on my bikes.

    I'm ordering the extra short ones for my wife's mini-Mouse feet to narrow the Q-Factor and get the 2Ti's down to the 4Ti weight. Everyone on the weight weenie board is raving about them (except for the delays last year as the product was ramping up). My wife was running Shimano 520's before which boat anchor in at 370g. So for here to drop down to just a bit under 167g for a pair of pedals is/will be a nice shavings in something you've got to push around.

    BB

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