Can we be perfectly honest for a second?- Mtbr.com
Results 1 to 77 of 77
  1. #1

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    1,171

    Can we be perfectly honest for a second?

    Recent discussions regarding 26 vs 29ers have made me consider something.

    How many of you buy stuff for you bike based on enhancing performance (defined as that which makes you more likely to reduce time needed to complete a loop or section of trail)?

    How many of you buy stuff for your bike based on how it makes you feel? i.e. you may feel better about a green CK hub than you would about a relatively plain black but otherwise identical hub.

    What I am getting at here is: How many people ride a 29er because they like the way it feels, but can not necessarily prove or demonstrate that it has any (time based)performance advantage? (lets not try to demonstrate this advantage here...OK?)

    I can tell you, that I don't care about performance so much as feeling like a kid again.

    I am guessing that for many its more about feel/looks than winning races.

    but I am also guessing that many of you will not freely admit that to be true (if it is true).

    Sometimes feeling fast is better than being fast...I dont want to start a fight here...really I just want to find out how many people are enjoying their bike like a toy and not a race machine.

    One last thought...would you rather ride with someone that is more interrested in reducing lap times, or someone that wants to have fun?

    Have fun.

  2. #2
    N+1
    Reputation: MichiganClydesdale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    703

    29 is it

    A few years ago, I was just about ready to give up on the sport of cycling. I was too big for racing, and too big for even the largest XL production bikes....but then I got 29er'd and everything changed. I started having fun again and I had more options to refine the fit. Since then, I may not be faster, but there's nothing I'd rather do then spend a day on one of my bikes.....that thanks to 29inch wheels.
    GET Bret Weir, I said.

  3. #3

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    732

    Good topic!

    Personally, I think attemptiing to quantify any pleasurable experience just takes the pleasure right out of it. As far as cycling goes, whether it's bike weight, lap times, watts generated, average speed, or calories burned, the farther away I get from numbers the happier I am. As someone who used to be a slave to his Cateye wireless, I can say that going "bare bars" has made a vast improvement in my rides, if not my riding.

  4. #4
    In FTF We Trust
    Reputation: el-cid's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    1,814
    Yup, same sentiment here. I've enjoyed riding a lot for the last 11 or 12 years, but as my time started getting really taxed with work, weather and the birth of my now 3 year old son it was hard finding motivation to ride. I had been intrigued with the 29er "thing" and got a "cant pass it up" deal on a Fisher Mt Tam 29 demo and since I'm a bike whore I had to buy it. I came off of riding a Schwinn Rocket 88 Stage 1 and Kona Stinky and enjoyed the hell out of riding the aluminum hardtail contrary to my intuition. Riding the 29er re-lit my fire so to speak. I enjoyed it so much I had a custom hardtail frame built and just picked up a Sugar 293 late last October that I haven't had much chance to ride yet, but I did put a King headset on it . I also have a confession-I bought a Titus Super-Moto last fall too and I also love riding it, it's all good. I'm all about making the best use of my personal time, as limited as it is these days, and that doesn't seem to include training logs or heartrate monitors any more.
    "I'll disintegrate over time if I expect my body to try to keep up with my mind" -BM

    Race, Rocks or Road...Just Ride

  5. #5
    Large wheels & one gear
    Reputation: Konapdlr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    720
    Quote Originally Posted by unit
    Recent discussions regarding 26 vs 29ers have made me consider something.

    How many of you buy stuff for you bike based on enhancing performance (defined as that which makes you more likely to reduce time needed to complete a loop or section of trail)?

    How many of you buy stuff for your bike based on how it makes you feel? i.e. you may feel better about a green CK hub than you would about a relatively plain black but otherwise identical hub.

    What I am getting at here is: How many people ride a 29er because they like the way it feels, but can not necessarily prove or demonstrate that it has any (time based)performance advantage? (lets not try to demonstrate this advantage here...OK?)

    I can tell you, that I don't care about performance so much as feeling like a kid again.

    I am guessing that for many its more about feel/looks than winning races.

    but I am also guessing that many of you will not freely admit that to be true (if it is true).

    Sometimes feeling fast is better than being fast...I dont want to start a fight here...really I just want to find out how many people are enjoying their bike like a toy and not a race machine.

    One last thought...would you rather ride with someone that is more interrested in reducing lap times, or someone that wants to have fun?

    Have fun.
    Great topic! Here is my take.
    First, I come from the Flatland Freestyle era. Back in the Mid/late 80's. I LOVED being on my bike! Then my twenties arrived and so did a interest in Mt biking. I kinda grew out of the freestyling at that point. Mt biking was fun but just a different avenue. Then the late 90's came and Mt bikes were in my blood. Now, I get my first SS a few months ago. Holy [email protected]!!! I feel like I did back in the 80's! But now it's on a mountain instead of a parking lot.

    I ride to ride. I don't race (not that there's anything wrong with it, just not an interest to me). I buy parts that work and maybe a little on the bling side at times. But my bike list is not of the most "Elite" bikes. My FS give me the FS pleasure without breaking the bank. My SS just ROCKS! And now I am moving into the 29'r (SS of course) catagory. Why? Because I love bikes and I get goose bumps riding each one and the 29'r experience just adds to it. I don't think one is better than the other. It's just a different ride on each. I do lean on the SS side of things though. And if I can pick up a certain colored part to match at a good price I will....because I can.

    And I would rather ride with someone who wants to have fun. Who doesn't mind stopping to take in the scenery or ride back up a ways to hit the jumps again on the way down. I ride solo alot because I like to play around, take my time and I absolutly hate pounding through a trail/loop. Anyways, sorry such a long winded responce here.
    I Never Apologize............I'm Sorry, That's Just The Way I Am.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Fisty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    891
    Not too much into bling but I like a good looking bike. Im more into performance as far as gettin through rough stuff faster and with more comfort. I like stuff solid so not much of a weight weenie though Im not fond of a 30+ xc racer either. Im always lookin at the latest greatest for better performance. I also like the nostalgic stuff guys are buildin; they have character and style unlike the performance bikes most folks ride.
    I like to ride with both racer types and for fun riders. If your lucky, your common riding buddies are both.and some days will be hardcore training and others will be ball bustin fun and skills days. I really think when your gettin burned out its time to hook up with the fun guys for a few rides. If it aint fun even bein 1st is the worst! If it is fun, even last is a blast!

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: miles e's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,035
    Quote Originally Posted by unit
    How many of you buy stuff for you bike based on enhancing performance (defined as that which makes you more likely to reduce time needed to complete a loop or section of trail)?
    If one is relatively serious about racing, then that (speed) will always be a primary factor.

    The law of dimishing returns still applies too though. Superlight wheels and tires reduce somewhat the amount of fun I can have on the race course, but they make me substantially faster so I consider them a must for my race bike. On the other hand, a 130 gram saddle would theoretically make me faster on the race course too, but vastly reduce the enjoyability of the ride, so you won't find one on my bike.

    For general mountain biking I think it's pretty obvious most folks go with what is the most fun, hence the popularity of single speeds and long travel bikes. Generally speaking, neither is the fastest way to ride a trail, but is often the most fun (I'm giving the SS guys the benefit of the doubt here; I've never personally understood the attraction).

    I prefer a mountain bike with big, fat, grippy tires, but would not consider for a second running my 2.5 Stick-E Nevegals in a race. I also prefer the ride of 29" wheels, but if I felt they were a noticable disadvantage for racing then I would probably not race on them. If at any point I become less serious about racing, doing it strictly for fun (rather than testing my limits and hopefully having fun while doing so), then I will definitely be racing on 29" wheels and tires as big as possible that don't make pedaling around a race course a chore. Not that those currently exist anyway .
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  8. #8

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    4
    I'll be buying a 29er Monocog when they come out; it'll be my first off-road bike. I'm mainly a roadie/commuter, though hardly a typical roadie, my main "road bike" will fit Exis with fenders.

    I'm going with the 622 bsd wheels primarily to maintain wheelsize consistency, and because I'm somewhat tall (I ride around a 62-64cm road frame.)

    I do consider comfort, utility, and (to some extent) aesthetics to be vastly more important than pushing the limits of performance.

  9. #9
    No Reputation!
    Reputation: Fastskiguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,705

    Good topic!

    Can we be in both camps?

    I dig my 29" custom bikes and really feel good on'em. But sometimes I go to the races and a couple of minutes makes a difference. So on my "race bike", I'd go way over to the "faster" side of the equation. But that doesn't mean I always want that, sometimes I ride with my wife on the roads and we stop, take pictures, and (of course) eat ice cream. So I'm goin' with BOTH! If that's OK.....

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    419

    Said Before

    As a tall kid the 29er does it all for me: it fits better, feels better, allows me to ride more places and usually faster! That's fun in my book. It's "different" in a way that gets the other kids interested and talking. That's fun in my book. Some mean kids say bad things about it out of envy pure and simple. I hope they can also have fun someday, but maybe not TOO soon, okay?

    If the 29 vs 26 arguments dissuade even one tall kid from dreams of parking his fit-compromised 26 then he's been done a great disservice.
    Last edited by Ricky J; 03-04-2006 at 06:44 PM.

  11. #11
    TR
    TR is offline
    Angry bunny
    Reputation: TR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,948
    I love my 29er for the reason it is fun.
    I also like my bike to look good.
    I am also in the process of Jenny Craig'ing my bike to try to cut some of the weight on it to hopefully make it faster for the endurance type events I will be participating in this year. I am hoping hat a combination of me riding more and pushing myself towards being fitter and the lighter bike will allow me to more of a competitor and less of a participant. Mind you I wont be putting any ugly stuff on the bike in the quest for weight savings.

    I WILL be going for the 135g saddle, 125g carbon bars and 600g tyres in the pursuit of extra speed (but only on race days).

  12. #12
    C-Hog
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    458

    For me personally,

    I cycle for one reason, and one reason only... It's fun. And there is nothing more fun than going fast. I spent nearly 15 years in the Sport class. And like MichiganClydesdale, "was just about ready to give up on the sport of cycling. I was too big for racing, and too big for even the largest XL production bikes" I too then got my first 29"er, and three weeks later was racing in the Expert class. I don't need any scientific data telling me which size wheel is faster. Heck, I don't even care if study after study shows that 26" wheels are faster. I KNOW what is best FOR ME.

    NEVER going back!!!

  13. #13
    Peace & Love
    Reputation: FoShizzle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    17,281
    until somebody conducts a properly designed randomized blinded trial between the 2 it is all speculation based on at best, feeble data.

    Not saying 29er are even better.....just that like pretty much everything we discuss here on mtbr (horst-link vs faux-bar, v-brakes vs disc brakes, Ti vs steel vs Al frames, etc, etc, etc....), at the end of the day, it is what your gut feel wants to go with that dictates what you (not me) likes best, period.

    As such, on the average, I tend to like 29er hardtails over 26er hardtails. I have also realized, as silly as it may sound, that I particularly now hate the look of 26er hardtails....with their lack of sloping tube tube and smaller wheels....is just flat out bothers me; no data, no speculation, it just does.

  14. #14

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    55
    When I'm riding with my friends on a particulary sweet trail, especially at night, the last things on my mind are wheel size, efficiency, or data. Railing a bermed curve, finessing it through the rocks, and dropping into a creek crossing makes me feel like a kid again, and honestly, whether the wheels are 24, 26, or 29 inches just isn't even a part of the equation.

  15. #15
    3.14159265358979323846…
    Reputation: velocipus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    2,846

    Curious...

    I finally ordered a 29er frame because I am curious... New things keep the adventure fresh for me. I don't think a 29 inch wheel is going to make me a better rider or make me any faster, but it sure is holding my interest. Same thing happened in '95 when I bought my first single speed... It looked fun, so I bought a frame. I still have that bike and I still ride it a lot. I bought a track bike in '99 becuse I'd ridden a few fixed gears and dag nabbit... it was fun! It still is fun and I still ride that bike a lot too.
    I still haven't ridden a 29er, but it looks fun.
    I work hard for my money and I want to spend it on something fun. I don't care if it's any faster than my 26" wheels. I'll probably still have my 29er in 2012 and talk about how much fun I have on it!

  16. #16
    Nat
    Nat is online now
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Nat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    14,150
    I ride bikes to have fun.
    I ride bikes for exercise.
    I ride bikes to get to work.
    I ride bikes to enjoy the machinery.
    I ride bikes to enjoy the scenery.
    I ride bikes for the challenge.
    I ride bikes for the ease.
    I ride bikes to show off.
    I ride bikes to get to the park.
    A few times a year I race, but I've never won (and don't care).
    I ride bikes because I have for decades.
    I ride bikes to feel like a kid (but heaven forbid I act like one, lest I be called immature -- but it's not an insult because it's what I strive for).
    I ride bikes because my life is half under way, not half over.
    I ride bikes because it makes me smile and laugh.

    I ride bikes because I can't not.


    And 29ers rule whoooooooooo! [big foam #1 finger waving in the air].
    Last edited by Nat; 03-04-2006 at 08:46 PM. Reason: Sp. -1

  17. #17
    3.14159265358979323846…
    Reputation: velocipus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    2,846
    Quote Originally Posted by Nat
    I ride bikes to have fun.
    I ride bikes for exercise.
    I ride bikes to get to work.
    I ride bikes to enjoy the machinery.
    I ride bikes to enjoy the scenery.
    I ride bikes for the challenge.
    I ride bikes for the ease.
    I ride bikes to show off.
    I ride bikes to get to the park.
    A few times a year I race, but I've never won (and don't care).
    I ride bikes because I have for decades.
    I ride bikes to feel like a kid (but heaven forbid I act like one, lest I be called immature -- but it's not an insult because it's what I stive for).
    I ride bikes because my life is half under way, not half over.
    I ride bikes because it makes me smile and laugh.

    I ride bikes because I can't not.


    And 29ers rule whoooooooooo! [big foam #1 finger waving in the air].
    I don't think anyone could have put it any better. You are my hero for today... It's going in my calendar "Nat from MTBR hero for 3/4/06"

  18. #18
    Nat
    Nat is online now
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Nat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    14,150
    Quote Originally Posted by velocipus
    I don't think anyone could have put it any better. You are my hero for today... It's going in my calendar "Nat from MTBR hero for 3/4/06"
    Thanks man.

  19. #19
    Peace & Love
    Reputation: FoShizzle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    17,281
    not to mention, 29ers make my weiner tickle

  20. #20
    Nat
    Nat is online now
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Nat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    14,150
    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    not to mention, 29ers make my weiner tickle
    Har! Only you...

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation: UzziDH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    153

    Give a SS 29er a try.

    I got the "feel like a kid again" feeling after a few rides on my SS 29er. IMO, if you want that feeling ditch the gears and get a SS. Riding SS is a whole different way of riding. That's what gives you the feeling. It's something new. Just my 2 cents.

  22. #22

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    1,171

    I agree

    Quote Originally Posted by UzziDH
    ...... if you want that feeling ditch the gears and get a SS.....
    Yeah, I agree totally. My 29er has never had shifters, or suspension. If I cared about going faster than someone else, this is not the bike I would choose to give me an advantage....it is the bike that I choose to have a bunch of fun though.

  23. #23
    drev-il, not Dr. Evil!
    Reputation: Drevil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    3,907
    Numbers make my eyes glaze over.
    "Keep your burgers lean and your tires fat." -h.d. | ssoft | flickr

  24. #24
    Esperanza
    Reputation: tío loco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    128
    Quote Originally Posted by unit
    Recent discussions regarding 26 vs 29ers have made me consider something.

    How many of you buy stuff for you bike based on enhancing performance (defined as that which makes you more likely to reduce time needed to complete a loop or section of trail)?

    How many of you buy stuff for your bike based on how it makes you feel? i.e. you may feel better about a green CK hub than you would about a relatively plain black but otherwise identical hub.

    What I am getting at here is: How many people ride a 29er because they like the way it feels, but can not necessarily prove or demonstrate that it has any (time based)performance advantage? (lets not try to demonstrate this advantage here...OK?)

    I can tell you, that I don't care about performance so much as feeling like a kid again.

    I am guessing that for many its more about feel/looks than winning races.

    but I am also guessing that many of you will not freely admit that to be true (if it is true).

    Sometimes feeling fast is better than being fast...I dont want to start a fight here...really I just want to find out how many people are enjoying their bike like a toy and not a race machine.

    One last thought...would you rather ride with someone that is more interrested in reducing lap times, or someone that wants to have fun?

    Have fun.

    All this philosophical mumbo jumbo is nice, but I've long since answered and come to terms with everything you brought up here.

    I do it; because I can........if that’s not being honest I don't know what is.

    If you want to be a weight weenie...Great! If you want to shave a few seconds off your lap time...Wonderful! If you want to build an ultimate expression of over-priced, over-engineered, over-pimped, and uber-stupid bike on the planet; take a picture of it and post on the forums so people can tell how cool it is and great you are; put the bike in your garage and pull it out once a month to wash it and lube the chain...Fantastic!!

    Wantever the reasons I choose to use to justify spending what I do on my bikes, it all boils down to one thing...I do it; because I can.

    Having said all that, I wouldn't be caught dead with anything Chris King on my ride...Talk about over-priced and uber-stupid...
    Quotation, n: The act of repeating erroneously the words of another.

  25. #25
    Peace & Love
    Reputation: FoShizzle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    17,281
    Quote Originally Posted by tí¯*loco
    Having said all that, I wouldn't be caught dead with anything Chris King on my ride...Talk about over-priced and uber-stupid...
    agreed....King is a waste of money, especially their hubs. I for one will no longer throw money away and as such am an Industry Nine guy now

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Bigwheel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,394

    Respect

    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    agreed....King is a waste of money, especially their hubs. I for one will no longer throw money away and as such am an Industry Nine guy now
    800 msrp for a set of wheels is defiantely not throwing money away, it is alot more like pissing it away

    One thing for sure the debate will continue until everyone is finally sick of it or the next new thing to pounce on comes along. I have had fun on every bike that I have ever ridden on in my life, from my monkey ward handmedown first real bike on up.
    A bike by any other name is still a bike.

  27. #27
    Powered by ice cream.
    Reputation: Enel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    6,337
    Amen to that Nat!
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  28. #28
    Peace & Love
    Reputation: FoShizzle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    17,281
    darn you DeeZee........you have more than learned to never take anything I say serious. you are no fun anymore....

    by the way, when we gonna hook up for a ride? i am still trying to escape to ride with Aqua at San Juan....where you located. I will need somebodys shoulder to cry on accordingly.

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation: DeeZee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    6,235

    Chris King

    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    agreed....King is a waste of money, especially their hubs. I for one will no longer throw money away and as such am an Industry Nine guy now
    I for one will no longer throw money away and as such am an Industry Nine guy now

    LOL!

  30. #30
    Nat
    Nat is online now
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Nat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    14,150
    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    I for one will no longer throw money away and as such am an Industry Nine guy now
    It's not so much the money but the first born and pound of flesh that hurts.

  31. #31
    Reviewer/Tester
    Reputation: Rainman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    6,176

    Wink Weight weenie ?

    I'm going through a "light is right" phase right now. It's hurting my bank account, but so much fun..

    I'm also going to buy a new cowboy hat. I hear the guys at Industry Nine have some nice ones...


    R.

  32. #32
    DSR
    DSR is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    1,056
    For me, the 29 thing isn't the end-all-be-all. I like riding my bikes - road, mountain, cross. What I like about my 29er hardtail is that it rides as proficiently and smoothly as my prior FS 26" bikes but less cost, less maintenance and more simplicity. So that's my take. I hope The Movement continues to make progress so that I have more and more component options in the future as parts wear out and need to be replaced. S

  33. #33
    rmb
    rmb is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: rmb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    660
    I ride and buy stuff for my bikes based on how it makes me feel. I like riding in the woods because it makes me feel like a kid again and the simplicity of a SS with big wheels adds to it. I like my bikes to look good and I like to work on them.

    I cut out the competitive sports and muscle cars so it's just fun and exercise for me, although I maintained the tinkering.

    I'd rather ride or fun, however I do not mind riding with good people that are interested in reducing lap times. I just figure it as more exercise if I can keep up, if not, no big deal.

    In addition, I still love to ride my 26" bikes.

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,230
    Here is my story...

    About 4 years ago I up and decided I wanted to take up mountain biking and bought a Raleigh hardtail. I did a bunch of upgrades and rode that bike for about a year. I was a bigger guy then and still am, so needless to say, I am not particularly fast or agile on a bike. Still, I enjoyed riding off road so long as the terrain was not too technical. I start riding over rock embedded terrain and my fun quotient goes way down. It wears me out and I start getting pissed off. I sold that bike and took about a year hiatus from mountain biking.

    After that year, a guy I knew opened up a small bike shop. He offered me a job and I went to work for him. Working at a shop, it was only a matter of time before I ended up with another mountain bike. This time, it was a full suspension. I though having a few inches of squish front and rear would make a huge difference. Yes, it smoothed things out, but I still had a lot of trouble clearing rocky technical trails. Full suspension was great, but I still avoided rougher trails and stuck to riding on stuff felt no worse on my hardtail.

    So, here I am still working at the bike shop nearly 2 years later. Since I have been working there, have been noticing the 29'er movement steadily gain popularity. At the last 12 hour race attended, I saw them all over the place. That is what really spurred a heightened level of curiosity. I started lurking on this forums from time to time, gaining insight on the 29 inch wheel.

    Just recently, I was overjoyed to discover a few miles of newer mountain bike trails just 1/2 mile from my house. I really thought I would be riding them a lot more. After riding a couple of times out there, I found myself only riding on the smoother double track out there. How boring. My attendance at the trails fell off. It was at this time that the 29'er bug really started biting hard. I thought to myself that it was time for a change. I figured, what the heck, I can't like this any less than my full suspension 26er. I plunked down some cash on a Soma Juice frame, Reba Race, and a cheapo WTB Dual Duty/Deore disc wheelset and but the rest of my parts over from my Kona.

    Everything I have read about 29'ers was validated on my first rides. I rolled right through the tight, twisty, technical terrain that literally stopped my 26er in its track. What's this? I am actually having fun on the very trail that made me not want to ride! As far as I am concerned, 29'ers saved me.

    As for the threads discussing 29 vs 26, I don't care what some half-a$$ed scientific study using a power tap hub says. Sure, it is going to take more energy to roll a larger diameter wheel, but I doubt somebody at my level is ever going to notice that. I do notice my 29er is lighter and quicker through the corners. My old 26er had a 45" wheelbase, so that thing sucked big time in the corners. The hardtail 29er is much more efficient than the squishy 26er. You stand on it and it actually goes. You can stand up on a loose incline and it doesn't bat an eye. I absolutely love this bike. Twenty six inch mountain bikes are dead to me.
    Get on your bikes and ride!

  35. #35
    Recovering couch patato
    Reputation: Cloxxki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    14,017
    I'm a tall dude. Only once hit 200lb, but try to hover around 185lb. I'm a racer boy.
    Almost exactly a meter of inseam and broad shoulder always had me pushing to my utter limits to stay with shorter riders. Inside myself I felt like I was really operating my bike at the absolute limit of the possible, at least on flat or rising surface, I'm a chackin at DH's. However, I also felt clumsy, and was always referred to by other riders as less of a technical miracle and more a straight-line champ car type of rider. That always kind of hurt my feelings, as I was pretty sure my body style was holding me back and me not doing such a bad job considering.
    29" happened, and I started rading all about it I could find. Even open up a web community about them to lure in people that knew more than me so I could suck their brains empty from as much data as possible, preparing me for my first 29" purchase. I finally managed to ride a few too-small Nishiki's on a bike show test course, felt all the advantages of the wheels I read about, but also noted much much Nishiki's sucked for my body and riding style.
    I converted one 26" bike to 29/26 by sticking in a 29" front wheel with ridig fork, which only made me want a true 29"er ever more.
    Eventually I found a Fisher SupelCal29 frame, V wheelset and Marz fork for a bit more than a fortune, used.
    My clumsiness was gone on the first ride, I didn't feel like a tall person anymore. It reminded me of my very first MTB experience, the Gaint Track 58cm I got in 1989 to ride to school on. I was 13 at the time, and didn't use any seatpost extension. The Giant felt awesome to me, so stable and butch.
    Same thing with the Fisher. when I found a front tire that inspired more confidence than the Nano's, Moto's and Notos' I tried, my riding really took off. Before I was about exactly as fast on the Fisher as before on the 26"ers, because I was just doing what I already knew to work.

    Now, the riders that used to see me chasing at the max of my capabilities, or even being dropped on twisty/technical singletrack, are now being dropped by me. I play with them, thanks to the 29" superpowers. Having lived my cycling life so close to the limit with 26" has opened a whole new way of carving/flowing. Sometimes on the right trails I almost have to go to auto pilot because my brain can't keep up with what's happening. 29"ers require much fewer steering corrections, which help there.
    Since I went 29", I :
    - developped an astma that kept me from any decent race results, or training motivation
    - rode up hills that people told me to my face I could not
    - find myself braking on DH's behind riders that used to just shake me off instantly
    - find myself dropping my singletrack idols, on their favorite types of trails
    - hardly ever crash anymore. 26"ers that try to copy my lines often just wash out
    - feel like a much better rider. I'm dancing with the bike rather than working hard to stay upright
    - am much less scared of taking steep DH trails. No more endo's.
    - out-brake everyone, overtake people on the wrost lines
    - have more fun riding, I'm more at home on the bike

  36. #36
    SALSAFIED endurance racer
    Reputation: realbiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    498

    great topic

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    - find myself braking on DH's behind riders that used to just shake me off instantly
    - find myself dropping my singletrack idols, on their favorite types of trails
    - hardly ever crash anymore. 26"ers that try to copy my lines often just wash out
    - feel like a much better rider. I'm dancing with the bike rather than working hard to stay upright
    - am much less scared of taking steep DH trails. No more endo's.
    - out-brake everyone, overtake people on the wrost lines
    - have more fun riding, I'm more at home on the bike
    I totally agree with all your points plus I have to say that I can ride as fast as the others on flat grass/fireroads, .. where I had problems in former times
    It's got to be AUSTRIA !!!

  37. #37
    Peace & Love
    Reputation: FoShizzle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    17,281
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman
    I'm going through a "light is right" phase right now. It's hurting my bank account, but so much fun..

    I'm also going to buy a new cowboy hat. I hear the guys at Industry Nine have some nice ones...


    R.
    indeed they do.....by the way, that cowboy hat will go nicely with you speedos

  38. #38
    Don't be a sheep
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    3,422
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    I'm a tall dude. Only once hit 200lb, but try to hover around 185lb. I'm a racer boy.
    Almost exactly a meter of inseam and broad shoulder always had me pushing to my utter limits to stay with shorter riders. Inside myself I felt like I was really operating my bike at the absolute limit of the possible, at least on flat or rising surface, I'm a chackin at DH's. However, I also felt clumsy, and was always referred to by other riders as less of a technical miracle and more a straight-line champ car type of rider. That always kind of hurt my feelings, as I was pretty sure my body style was holding me back and me not doing such a bad job considering.
    29" happened, and I started rading all about it I could find. Even open up a web community about them to lure in people that knew more than me so I could suck their brains empty from as much data as possible, preparing me for my first 29" purchase. I finally managed to ride a few too-small Nishiki's on a bike show test course, felt all the advantages of the wheels I read about, but also noted much much Nishiki's sucked for my body and riding style.
    I converted one 26" bike to 29/26 by sticking in a 29" front wheel with ridig fork, which only made me want a true 29"er ever more.
    Eventually I found a Fisher SupelCal29 frame, V wheelset and Marz fork for a bit more than a fortune, used.
    My clumsiness was gone on the first ride, I didn't feel like a tall person anymore. It reminded me of my very first MTB experience, the Gaint Track 58cm I got in 1989 to ride to school on. I was 13 at the time, and didn't use any seatpost extension. The Giant felt awesome to me, so stable and butch.
    Same thing with the Fisher. when I found a front tire that inspired more confidence than the Nano's, Moto's and Notos' I tried, my riding really took off. Before I was about exactly as fast on the Fisher as before on the 26"ers, because I was just doing what I already knew to work.

    Now, the riders that used to see me chasing at the max of my capabilities, or even being dropped on twisty/technical singletrack, are now being dropped by me. I play with them, thanks to the 29" superpowers. Having lived my cycling life so close to the limit with 26" has opened a whole new way of carving/flowing. Sometimes on the right trails I almost have to go to auto pilot because my brain can't keep up with what's happening. 29"ers require much fewer steering corrections, which help there.
    Since I went 29", I :
    - developped an astma that kept me from any decent race results, or training motivation
    - rode up hills that people told me to my face I could not
    - find myself braking on DH's behind riders that used to just shake me off instantly
    - find myself dropping my singletrack idols, on their favorite types of trails
    - hardly ever crash anymore. 26"ers that try to copy my lines often just wash out
    - feel like a much better rider. I'm dancing with the bike rather than working hard to stay upright
    - am much less scared of taking steep DH trails. No more endo's.
    - out-brake everyone, overtake people on the wrost lines
    - have more fun riding, I'm more at home on the bike

    You forgot;
    -Cures cancer
    -Able to produce cold fusion
    -It's a perpetual motion machine, zero loss.
    Humm, what else, oh ya, will soon create world peace. That's one amazing 3".......and no, I've never heard that before.
    "Do not touch the trim"

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation: DeeZee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    6,235

    San Juan

    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    darn you DeeZee........you have more than learned to never take anything I say serious. you are no fun anymore....

    by the way, when we gonna hook up for a ride? i am still trying to escape to ride with Aqua at San Juan....where you located. I will need somebodys shoulder to cry on accordingly.
    It is my local trail Bring Burner (Mat) with you so I have someone to talk to incase you and Aqua need some "alone time"

  40. #40
    Gold Member
    Reputation: F5000sl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    1,192
    I'm sorta in the middle on this one. I am not a racer, nor just a weekend rider. I don't need the lightest parts, but I might still like to have them.
    I am a kid at heart with my bikes and like a kid, I want cool looking parts and bikes. But... I am only willing to do so to a point. Colored hubs, I'd love to have them, would I pay 2x as much for them over a comparable product, hell no.
    One reason I picked up my Inbred was the cool looking frame & fork combo. I won't let form demand function, but I try to strike a balance whenever possible.
    CyclingCentralVa.org
    Shop Hand
    On-One Lurcher
    S-Works DEMO
    Crux
    BMC SLR01
    LOOK675

  41. #41

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    1,171

    I love it

    Over the years, I have seen much....

    a friend decided to build up a bike just to see how light he could make it....then before he ever rode it, he switched a bunch of light weight parts for stuff that "works".

    a friend built a bike with one goal in mind...to use the most expensive part available. There was not one part on this bike that you could have spent more money on...unless you got it customized.

    a friend (me) took an uber bike with all the latest goodies, and removed every single decal, and logo and made the bike look totally generic to the untrained eye, then had custom decals made for the bike that simply said "poop".

    I have seen custom painted Huffys, and thrashed out Moots.

    I have seen customized blinged out Surlys and Surly-clad custom built bikes. (Some have told me there is no sense in pimping out a "cheap" Surly frame).

    numerous people have tried to jump/huck progressively larger objects

    clear more technical sections, and even added things to make the section more technical

    dabbled in trials riding, time trials, snow criteriums, night races...you name it.

    professed that bling is best, then a month later, dismissed all material posessions beyone utilitarian to be needless.

    What ever you do is right, as long as you can justify it to yourself...there is no wrong way to enjoy a bike....just dont do anything that makes it impossible for others to enjoy.

  42. #42

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    55
    I was at a bike swap meet yesterday, and two guys on 29ers (both Karate Monkeys) pulled up. They had a beer, looked at the stuff that was for sale, listened to the band, and hung out for awhile. They had just been on a ride and were enjoying the scene. Oddly enough, they weren't obnoxious, egotistical, or self-righteous about their bikes at all. When I asked them if they read the boards at MTBR and what their opinion was of the 26er vs 29er controversy, they stared at me blankly. "Didn't know there was one," one said. "What's MTBR?" asked the other. It finally dawned on me that it's not the 29er bike that turns some people into such raving egoists, it's these boards. Without a public forum on which to read peoples' peurile insults and respond in kind to them, there would be no controversy; people would by and large ride what they like and allow others to do the same without judging them. Imagine that! Anyway, I look at yesterday's experience as an inspiration to drop this little habit. Hope y'all have a fine ride this weekend, on whatever bike is your current favorite.

    And I'll try to not let the door hit me on the ass on my way out.

  43. #43
    Negative Rep Points!!!!
    Reputation: Aquaholic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,090
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee
    It is my local trail Bring Burner (Mat) with you so I have someone to talk to incase you and Aqua need some "alone time"
    I doubt it's ever gonna happen. The guy has more excuses than what I heard on Prom night.
    What the EFF is "All MOUNTAIN"???

  44. #44
    Recovering couch patato
    Reputation: Cloxxki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    14,017
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    You forgot;
    -Cures cancer
    -Able to produce cold fusion
    -It's a perpetual motion machine, zero loss.
    Humm, what else, oh ya, will soon create world peace. That's one amazing 3".......and no, I've never heard that before.
    Pullease!
    This is just what I notice, and I'm not alone with it. It's science, wheels vital for the handling of a bike, so it changes everything. With the parameters of MTB'ing, large just works out better, at least for me. Like smaller works out better for circus bikes, footcycle and BMX.

  45. #45
    Nat
    Nat is online now
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Nat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    14,150
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    Pullease!
    This is just what I notice, and I'm not alone with it. It's science, wheels vital for the handling of a bike, so it changes everything. With the parameters of MTB'ing, large just works out better, at least for me. Like smaller works out better for circus bikes, footcycle and BMX.
    Jan, I cannot BELIEVE you took his bait.

    BTW, I like how the naysayers, cynics, and self-proclaimed reality checkers continue to post on this board. Ninerphobes!

  46. #46
    Nat
    Nat is online now
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Nat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    14,150
    Quote Originally Posted by Li'l Bastard
    It finally dawned on me that it's not the 29er bike that turns some people into such raving egoists, it's these boards. Without a public forum on which to read peoples' peurile insults and respond in kind to them, there would be no controversy; people would by and large ride what they like and allow others to do the same without judging them.
    Well LB, I have to say that is some pretty clear insight. I think it applies not just to bikes but to the internet as a whole.

    Personally I wouldn't mind it if you stuck around.

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation: DeeZee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    6,235

    Let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by Li'l Bastard
    I was at a bike swap meet yesterday, and two guys on 29ers (both Karate Monkeys) pulled up. They had a beer, looked at the stuff that was for sale, listened to the band, and hung out for awhile. They had just been on a ride and were enjoying the scene. Oddly enough, they weren't obnoxious, egotistical, or self-righteous about their bikes at all. When I asked them if they read the boards at MTBR and what their opinion was of the 26er vs 29er controversy, they stared at me blankly. "Didn't know there was one," one said. "What's MTBR?" asked the other. It finally dawned on me that it's not the 29er bike that turns some people into such raving egoists, it's these boards. Without a public forum on which to read peoples' peurile insults and respond in kind to them, there would be no controversy; people would by and large ride what they like and allow others to do the same without judging them. Imagine that! Anyway, I look at yesterday's experience as an inspiration to drop this little habit. Hope y'all have a fine ride this weekend, on whatever bike is your current favorite.

    And I'll try to not let the door hit me on the ass on my way out.
    When I asked them if they read the boards at MTBR and what their opinion was of the 26er vs 29er controversy

    The only controversy is in your own mind. Let it go..............

    Oddly enough, they weren't obnoxious, egotistical, or self-righteous about their bikes at all.

  48. #48
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    419

    Ah, But...

    ...as long as the 26" wheel is holding big riders captive there can never be world peace.

    It is always going to be true that a lighter wheel accelerates more quickly, and that for any given level of technology the smaller wheel is the lighter one. But in my opinion, the relative negative effect of a heavier 29er wheelset decreases as rider size and strength increase. That's good too, because as he gets bigger his ability to comfortably fit within the 26" dynamics envelope is going down (pun intended). Would it be an exaggeration to say that most of the big and tall people who try 29ers BUY 29ers? I like what Ventana's Sherwood Gibson says, 29" wheels aren't for everybody but they ARE for tall people.

    How come we never talk about the magical combination of rolling terrain, long strong legs, taller 29er gearing, and superior real world rolling resistance? It equals Big Speed. Remember how enjoyable it was kicking up dust as a kid? Now you can make "smokescreens" that Halsey would envy to cover your escape. All the others can do is watch you sail over the horizon.

  49. #49
    Recovering couch patato
    Reputation: Cloxxki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    14,017
    It's so said that Americans have to make a fight of everything. 2 American speedskaters happen to be the 2 best in the world, and all their press and fans want is to make it a black vs. white thing.
    People here (on-topic forum) like expressing experiences and help newbies out, please point out the egoists to me? I must be the worst probably.
    The thread is about being honest, which in this thread is a liar?
    If you can't handle other people's opinions, go out on a ride all by yourself, don't come on here laying bait or setting a negative mood. what does all that serve other than your own ego?

  50. #50
    mtbr member
    Reputation: edouble's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    1,672

    i ride for fun mostly but...

    having been an athlete most of my life, i love the adrenaline rush of going fast too. however mtbking is the first sport where my physical attributes were a disadvantage. im 6ft 2in and 255 lbs with a 36in waist in winter, 240 lbs 34- 35in waist in summer. im more Ray Lewis than lance Armstrong physically. where as being big, strong and quick helped me in baseball, basketball and football, my weight makes mtbking the ultimate challenge for me.
    still, i love it, just felt like there had to be a more appropriate bike for someone like me. a bike that would fit my body better. the 29er is that bike. am i now going to drop little, skinny racer guys because of it?. NO, but im able to ride longer and more comfortably at a faster pace which adds to my fun.
    this is a sport that ill never be as competitive in as i was in others. im just not built for it, the 29er has made it where i can have as much fun as i did in other sports, and i can maximize my ability on the bike. there's nothing holding me back from being the best rider I CAN BE !.
    EAST COAST
    CLYDESDALE
    DREADLOCKED
    STEEL RIDER

  51. #51
    mtbr member
    Reputation: DeeZee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    6,235

    We are not all the same..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    It's so said that Americans have to make a fight of everything. 2 American speedskaters happen to be the 2 best in the world, and all their press and fans want is to make it a black vs. white thing.
    People here (on-topic forum) like expressing experiences and help newbies out, please point out the egoists to me? I must be the worst probably.
    The thread is about being honest, which in this thread is a liar?
    If you can't handle other people's opinions, go out on a ride all by yourself, don't come on here laying bait or setting a negative mood. what does all that serve other than your own ego?
    It's so said that Americans have to make a fight of everything

    Got to go for now. Going for a ride on my bike (type of bike and wheel size intentionally excluded)

  52. #52
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,438

    Well put!

    just not sure about the

    "And 29ers rule whoooooooooo! [big foam #1 finger waving in the air].[/QUOTE]"

    But I can't wait to get my "in process" Sycip 29er and go for a ride on my new bike!

    I also find it interesting that people seem to be placing alot of weight on Dave's comparison. As Dave says, in not the exact words, the watt portion of this is just one component of the differences between the smaller and larger wheels bikes. Simply put it's the same argument between what's faster or more efficient a hardtail or FS. There are so many variables off road, that no true answer will be found in most instances it will be rider preference.

  53. #53
    Recovering couch patato
    Reputation: Cloxxki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    14,017
    Didn't mean to generalize, I use "all" in a sentence then :-)

  54. #54
    mtbr member
    Reputation: toddre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    2,389
    When I ride I always have a smile on face. My wife knows when I need to ride because I become unbearable and depressed. Now that I have a 29er, I love it even more. My only problem is the lack of geared only offerings (a whole other topic). But I love the 29er for my 6'5" frame, finally I don't feel like I'm riding a little kids bike! As for performance benefits, I personally think simply that if I'm more comfortable and confident on a bike, I'm going to ride better and faster. The added benefits (perceived or not) of the 29ers are just icing on the cake.

  55. #55
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mtgoz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    26

    Cures Cancer

    I hope it cures cancer. I smoked for way too many years and riding keeps the urges at bay. I stopped riding when I changed jobs last year and sure enough my bike fix was replaced by nicotine again. 29ers peeked my interest recently so I bought one, low and behold the cigs are gone. I hope I stay addicted to 29ers for awhile. It sure is cheaper than smoking.
    Jesus Is Coming, Everyone Look Busy

  56. #56

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    47
    "For me, the 29 thing isn't the end-all-be-all. I like riding my bikes - road, mountain, cross."


    ***Yup!

    ***Couldn't agree more. I pine for the old days when we all just "rode". Nobody cliqued it up with "roadie" or "mountain biker".





    "What I like about my 29er hardtail is that it rides as proficiently and smoothly as my prior FS 26" bikes but less cost, less maintenance and more simplicity."

    *** Yup again. I'm pleasantly suprised at how well behaved and comfy my Fisher 29er is. Lots of singletrack excitement and mechanically straight forward. Very nice.

    Fred

  57. #57
    mtbr member
    Reputation: DeeZee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    6,235

    225lbs

    Quote Originally Posted by edouble
    having been an athlete most of my life, i love the adrenaline rush of going fast too. however mtbking is the first sport where my physical attributes were a disadvantage. im 6ft 2in and 255 lbs with a 36in waist in winter, 240 lbs 34- 35in waist in summer. im more Ray Lewis than lance Armstrong physically. where as being big, strong and quick helped me in baseball, basketball and football, my weight makes mtbking the ultimate challenge for me.
    still, i love it, just felt like there had to be a more appropriate bike for someone like me. a bike that would fit my body better. the 29er is that bike. am i now going to drop little, skinny racer guys because of it?. NO, but im able to ride longer and more comfortably at a faster pace which adds to my fun.
    this is a sport that ill never be as competitive in as i was in others. im just not built for it, the 29er has made it where i can have as much fun as i did in other sports, and i can maximize my ability on the bike. there's nothing holding me back from being the best rider I CAN BE !.
    Nothing to add but "EXACTLY"

  58. #58
    Wood chips are stupid
    Reputation: akdeluxe's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    779

    My turn

    Of all the many types of grapes out there,I think the seedless green ones taste the best.


    akdeluxe
    "Trust me,you don't want a big baby."

    JT

  59. #59

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    47
    Quote Originally Posted by Fisty
    Not too much into bling but I like a good looking bike.

    I may be fussy about my cycling kit, but a solid, practical rig has a beauty all its own.

    Fred

  60. #60
    Esperanza
    Reputation: tío loco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    128
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman
    I'm going through a "light is right" phase right now. It's hurting my bank account, but so much fun..

    I'm also going to buy a new cowboy hat. I hear the guys at Industry Nine have some nice ones...


    R.
    We are all weight conscience to a point, some more than others. And its fine to shave some weight if you have the means. But to live and breath it like some do, and to treat it like some sort of funk religion is where some dive off the deep end.
    Quotation, n: The act of repeating erroneously the words of another.

  61. #61

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    374
    Quote Originally Posted by t�o loco
    ...and its fine to shave some weight if you have the means. But to live and breath it like some do, and to treat it like some sort of funk religion is where some dive off the deep end.
    Substitute "save some weight" with "add a little over an inch to your tire radius", and the same holds true.

    With 2.35" tires on narrow 26" rims, the wheels I've been riding for years have a radius of 13.35", while my WTBs have a 14.5" Radius. So the axle of my wheels sit 1.15" higher. The curvature difference for the "angle of attack" is so small it's completely lost in deformation bulge of the weighted tire. The contact patch is larger yet on the 2.35s, both in width, and in length. The larger tires weigh the same when static, and in rotation, they're still quicker to accelerate and decelerate due to the smaller radius. But lets just say all this wasn't true, and there was some measurable difference that 1.15" made. How big of an impact does that make? 8.6% Spokes are longer and have to be stronger to support an even more elongated traingle between the hub flanges & rim eyelets. And suspension? Bigger wheels only get more in the way when trying to get more than 4 or 5 inches of travel in, unless you blow the stays out beyond what drivetrains have been engineered to work with. It's pretty limiting. With suspension, you want to take the slop and flex OUT of the bike, and put it all into the suspension. This runs entirely counter to what 29" wheels are about. These are probalby issues you've all heard before. They remain valid. The format is not without shortcomings. To say it's the end-all be-all, and indicate that anyone who says otherwise is a small-minded naysayer is not only incorrect, but foolish as those who say it has no place at all, and says more about you than it says about bikes.



    Seriously, if some of you can't see this, that should be an indicator of how deep you're in it. Talk about getting swept up in a movement, Cloxxxi, do you read some of the stuff you write sometimes? By reading some of your guys's posts on here, it's as if Tullio Campagnolo just came along and invented the gear changer. How did we ever ride bikes before this? It seems unthinkable. Powertap Dave isn't the only one who has remarked about the zealotry of this forum. Most manufacturers have seen this forum, and most won't touch it with a ten foot pole. It's the same mindset that makes cults and religions and political movements work. There is "science" as Cloxxxi put it, and there are numbers both for and against, like everything in life. It wouldn't be science if both sides weren't approached with equal amounts of analysis and skepticism. And that is not what we see here. And this is what inspires people like Rivet to post things like that occasionally. It's not because we're "haters", as we've been called. It's because you guys come off like a bunch of nuts obsessed with a relatively small, almost trivial change to the mountain bike. Is bigger better for bigger riders? It can be, sure. Is bigger better for everybody? Hey, it just might be. But is a 8.6% increase in wheel diameter the difference between an unridable bike and cloxxxi's superpowers? Extremely, extremely doubtful. No trace of this has been found in any mfg who has looked into it. However, they will be more than happy to sell you a new bike, and if that means making bigger tires to do it, well, expect 07 to be a big year. The 29er movement is mainly approached with skepticism because it's such a minute change, it's doubtful that 5 years from now, there's a very real possibility that people aren't going to care, and while it means there are bikes to sell in the mean time, there's a lot of investment to be made to do it, and most feel as though, before they're saddled with having to stock a million MORE sizes of everything to support the next 5 years worth of bikes for the following 15 years, they'd just as soon find a nice comfy spot on the fence and wait to see if 29 becomes another 650b. Hype is good, overhype leads to burnout and that's not something anyone is interested ingoing through again. I like my 29er just fine, but we've put the cone on people and had them ride 2 identical bikes, and 1 29er and 1 26er, and asked what the advantages of one bike over the other were, and all we determined was that they thought they could tell a difference far more than they actually did.

    Don't ask what I do for a living.

  62. #62
    No Reputation!
    Reputation: Fastskiguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,705

    What is "the cone"?

    heh, you didn't expect to get away with this, did you? We need to hear about this "cone" of which you speak. And the results!


    Quote Originally Posted by Master Shake
    but we've put the cone on people and had them ride 2 identical bikes, and 1 29er and 1 26er, and asked what the advantages of one bike over the other were, and all we determined was that they thought they could tell a difference far more than they actually did.

    Don't ask what I do for a living.

  63. #63
    Recovering couch patato
    Reputation: Cloxxki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    14,017
    >The larger tires weigh the same when static, and in rotation, they're still quicker to accelerate and
    >decelerate due to the smaller radius. But lets just say all this wasn't true
    It's not. Weight's what counts for accelleration, the larger wheel will makes less revolutions, rotate slower to make up for added weight due to it's larger size.
    It all comes down to well under a pound of added weight. For spokes I actually use a rough 15%. Hubs and rim extrusion after all have the same height, don't adjust to the larger overall wheel, the 63mm increase all comes from the gap between hub and rim. 26>29 sees spokelengths go from ~260 to ~294

    Besides the point you're SO not getting me, are you saying that 29" just is a step too small to be worth any differences? In that case the disadvantages can be worth quarelling about either. I wish we had larger wheels to sample too, if only it was to do testing with more obvious results. Due to <10% size increase, it's really up to the rider to get the most of it. If you can't handle the change (weight), the advantages are no cheap lunch for you either.

    Cycling is all abouts sports, about enthousiasm. This keeps us from being objective. We ride in uncontrollable conditions, and while most of us don't race, the naysayer come up with "heavier, slower" arguments that for most of the 29" lovers are irrelevant, because of the grin factor.

    And to answer your question, sometimes I get to read back my own posts and learn a new thing. Just because I forget as much as I learn. I have to, I have a small brain, especially considering the size of my forehead.

  64. #64
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    20

    thats an easy one

    This is such a good topic, it resulted in my first post, just been lurkin'

    started mt bikeing when 48 years old (3 years ago). started on 26 and really liked to ride, but frankly I wasnt (and am not currently) a very skilled rider. Had (still have) a stumpjumper but it used to beat my a** after 10-12 miles, and provide the vehicle for an occasional face plant. Thought about an FS then rode my friends bikes for a comparo one day on a 12 mile loop. Half on a Sugar, half on a MT Tam 29er.

    Currently have large Mt Tam 29er and med Supercal soon to be set up as 1 x 9. THinking about starting racing this year, and regularly turn in 15-18 miles on a weekend ride.

    Long story short, on 26er, I liked to ride, on 29er, I need to ride

    Next step custome steel frame, a present to me if I do ok in some races this year.

  65. #65
    Recovering couch patato
    Reputation: Cloxxki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    14,017
    Hey mosalmo, welcome to the forums! Sounds like you're becoming quite an active rider, I hope to still like you in 19 years!

  66. #66

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    1,171

    wow there is some good stuff in there...

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Shake
    Substitute "save some weight" with "add a little over an inch to your tire radius", and the same holds true.

    With 2.35" tires on narrow 26" rims, the wheels I've been riding for years have a radius of 13.35", while my WTBs have a 14.5" Radius. So the axle of my wheels sit 1.15" higher. The curvature difference for the "angle of attack" is so small it's completely lost in deformation bulge of the weighted tire. The contact patch is larger yet on the 2.35s, both in width, and in length. The larger tires weigh the same when static, and in rotation, they're still quicker to accelerate and decelerate due to the smaller radius. But lets just say all this wasn't true, and there was some measurable difference that 1.15" made. How big of an impact does that make? 8.6% Spokes are longer and have to be stronger to support an even more elongated traingle between the hub flanges & rim eyelets. And suspension? Bigger wheels only get more in the way when trying to get more than 4 or 5 inches of travel in, unless you blow the stays out beyond what drivetrains have been engineered to work with. It's pretty limiting. With suspension, you want to take the slop and flex OUT of the bike, and put it all into the suspension. This runs entirely counter to what 29" wheels are about. These are probalby issues you've all heard before. They remain valid. The format is not without shortcomings. To say it's the end-all be-all, and indicate that anyone who says otherwise is a small-minded naysayer is not only incorrect, but foolish as those who say it has no place at all, and says more about you than it says about bikes.



    Seriously, if some of you can't see this, that should be an indicator of how deep you're in it. Talk about getting swept up in a movement, Cloxxxi, do you read some of the stuff you write sometimes? By reading some of your guys's posts on here, it's as if Tullio Campagnolo just came along and invented the gear changer. How did we ever ride bikes before this? It seems unthinkable. Powertap Dave isn't the only one who has remarked about the zealotry of this forum. Most manufacturers have seen this forum, and most won't touch it with a ten foot pole. It's the same mindset that makes cults and religions and political movements work. There is "science" as Cloxxxi put it, and there are numbers both for and against, like everything in life. It wouldn't be science if both sides weren't approached with equal amounts of analysis and skepticism. And that is not what we see here. And this is what inspires people like Rivet to post things like that occasionally. It's not because we're "haters", as we've been called. It's because you guys come off like a bunch of nuts obsessed with a relatively small, almost trivial change to the mountain bike. Is bigger better for bigger riders? It can be, sure. Is bigger better for everybody? Hey, it just might be. But is a 8.6% increase in wheel diameter the difference between an unridable bike and cloxxxi's superpowers? Extremely, extremely doubtful. No trace of this has been found in any mfg who has looked into it. However, they will be more than happy to sell you a new bike, and if that means making bigger tires to do it, well, expect 07 to be a big year. The 29er movement is mainly approached with skepticism because it's such a minute change, it's doubtful that 5 years from now, there's a very real possibility that people aren't going to care, and while it means there are bikes to sell in the mean time, there's a lot of investment to be made to do it, and most feel as though, before they're saddled with having to stock a million MORE sizes of everything to support the next 5 years worth of bikes for the following 15 years, they'd just as soon find a nice comfy spot on the fence and wait to see if 29 becomes another 650b. Hype is good, overhype leads to burnout and that's not something anyone is interested ingoing through again. I like my 29er just fine, but we've put the cone on people and had them ride 2 identical bikes, and 1 29er and 1 26er, and asked what the advantages of one bike over the other were, and all we determined was that they thought they could tell a difference far more than they actually did.

    Don't ask what I do for a living.
    I gotta go back and read it again.

    You make some great points there! There does seem to be a huge sugar pill effect going on....but still, that is life.

    once a person buys into something...it seems that the first goal they have is to convince others to do the same thing.

    I just like riding my bike. I have a 29er, but I think I could be as happy on a 24 inch wheel if that was what I had.

  67. #67
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Quasi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    1,049
    Quote Originally Posted by el-cid
    but I did put a King headset on it
    I heard that the green ones are the best. The green paint is lighter and add less wind resistance than other coatings.

  68. #68
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Fisty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    891
    [QUOTE=Ricky J]It is always going to be true that a lighter wheel accelerates more quicklyQUOTE]

    Always? Hmmm..... And providing each has no slippage and equal traction vs. resistence what are the actual numbers on that. lets say for S&Giggles the 9er wheels weighed twice as much on equal weight bikes. When you find out I think you will be shocked how little the difference is.

  69. #69
    Keep on Rockin...
    Reputation: Miker J's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    6,151

    Nice post...

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Shake
    Substitute "save some weight" with "add a little over an inch to your tire radius", and the same holds true.

    With 2.35" tires on narrow 26" rims, the wheels I've been riding for years have a radius of 13.35", while my WTBs have a 14.5" Radius. So the axle of my wheels sit 1.15" higher. The curvature difference for the "angle of attack" is so small it's completely lost in deformation bulge of the weighted tire. The contact patch is larger yet on the 2.35s, both in width, and in length. The larger tires weigh the same when static, and in rotation, they're still quicker to accelerate and decelerate due to the smaller radius. But lets just say all this wasn't true, and there was some measurable difference that 1.15" made. How big of an impact does that make? 8.6% Spokes are longer and have to be stronger to support an even more elongated traingle between the hub flanges & rim eyelets. And suspension? Bigger wheels only get more in the way when trying to get more than 4 or 5 inches of travel in, unless you blow the stays out beyond what drivetrains have been engineered to work with. It's pretty limiting. With suspension, you want to take the slop and flex OUT of the bike, and put it all into the suspension. This runs entirely counter to what 29" wheels are about. These are probalby issues you've all heard before. They remain valid. The format is not without shortcomings. To say it's the end-all be-all, and indicate that anyone who says otherwise is a small-minded naysayer is not only incorrect, but foolish as those who say it has no place at all, and says more about you than it says about bikes.



    Seriously, if some of you can't see this, that should be an indicator of how deep you're in it. Talk about getting swept up in a movement, Cloxxxi, do you read some of the stuff you write sometimes? By reading some of your guys's posts on here, it's as if Tullio Campagnolo just came along and invented the gear changer. How did we ever ride bikes before this? It seems unthinkable. Powertap Dave isn't the only one who has remarked about the zealotry of this forum. Most manufacturers have seen this forum, and most won't touch it with a ten foot pole. It's the same mindset that makes cults and religions and political movements work. There is "science" as Cloxxxi put it, and there are numbers both for and against, like everything in life. It wouldn't be science if both sides weren't approached with equal amounts of analysis and skepticism. And that is not what we see here. And this is what inspires people like Rivet to post things like that occasionally. It's not because we're "haters", as we've been called. It's because you guys come off like a bunch of nuts obsessed with a relatively small, almost trivial change to the mountain bike. Is bigger better for bigger riders? It can be, sure. Is bigger better for everybody? Hey, it just might be. But is a 8.6% increase in wheel diameter the difference between an unridable bike and cloxxxi's superpowers? Extremely, extremely doubtful. No trace of this has been found in any mfg who has looked into it. However, they will be more than happy to sell you a new bike, and if that means making bigger tires to do it, well, expect 07 to be a big year. The 29er movement is mainly approached with skepticism because it's such a minute change, it's doubtful that 5 years from now, there's a very real possibility that people aren't going to care, and while it means there are bikes to sell in the mean time, there's a lot of investment to be made to do it, and most feel as though, before they're saddled with having to stock a million MORE sizes of everything to support the next 5 years worth of bikes for the following 15 years, they'd just as soon find a nice comfy spot on the fence and wait to see if 29 becomes another 650b. Hype is good, overhype leads to burnout and that's not something anyone is interested ingoing through again. I like my 29er just fine, but we've put the cone on people and had them ride 2 identical bikes, and 1 29er and 1 26er, and asked what the advantages of one bike over the other were, and all we determined was that they thought they could tell a difference far more than they actually did.

    Don't ask what I do for a living.


    Agreed. If it sounds too good to be true, it is. After you've lived long enough, and made enough mistakes yourself, you really start to see through the hype.

    "But is a 8.6% increase in wheel diameter the difference between an unridable bike and cloxxxi's superpowers? Extremely, extremely doubtful. No trace of this has been found in any mfg who has looked into it. However, they will be more than happy to sell you a new bike, and if that means making bigger tires to do it, well, expect 07 to be a big year. The 29er movement is mainly approached with skepticism because it's such a minute change..."

    We've all seen the next "end all be all" piece of technology come down the pike. Once upon a time I was a suspension addict. Trying it all, tweaking it all, riding it all. Remember how much "better" the Horst link was suppose to be over the "faux-bar"; or how VPP designs were the best; oh wait don't forget the DW link. After trying it all I found my favorite to be the lowly single pivot.

    IMO anyone who runs around spouting how much more amazing one type of ride is over another, has fallen for the sucker bait. If your wondering if I've spent a lot of time on a 29er, I haven't, but I have enough experience to sniff out the BS that folks are throwing around. How could such a relatively small change to a bike instantly turn it into a magic carpet ride! Stuff like "I just couldn't have fun on my 26" mountain bike anymore... but now, oh my, biking is soooo wonderfull, because the I'm riding a 29er" What a crock!!! Give any one with a true love for the sport a sweet piece of single track, some sun, and they'll have a blast; be it on a 26er, 29er, FS, gearie, SS, or a Huffy.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but most folks who are out there buying 29ers likely have been involved with biking for a while. They have likely squirreled away a small arsenal of bike parts. Parts that include 26" wheels and tires. What becomes of these? What becomes of your trusted 26er since it is now obsolete? Ready for the trash bin? How many suckers out there have tossed their high zoot custom made 26" frames for the new Holy Grail? Most certainly I have not been immune to such foolishness in the past. Now if you are looking for a new ride I would never suggest not considering a 29er. By all means check it out. Just don't fall for the hype. Again... If something sounds to good to be true, it is.

    Mike

  70. #70
    ( )
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    754
    Quote Originally Posted by akdeluxe
    Of all the many types of grapes out there,I think the seedless green ones taste the best.


    akdeluxe

    Take it to the seedless grape forum.
    Last edited by steevo; 03-05-2006 at 08:05 PM.

  71. #71
    mtbr member
    Reputation: DeeZee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    6,235

    Hope With a grain of salt

    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J
    Agreed. If it sounds too good to be true, it is. After you've lived long enough, and made enough mistakes yourself, you really start to see through the hype.

    "But is a 8.6% increase in wheel diameter the difference between an unridable bike and cloxxxi's superpowers? Extremely, extremely doubtful. No trace of this has been found in any mfg who has looked into it. However, they will be more than happy to sell you a new bike, and if that means making bigger tires to do it, well, expect 07 to be a big year. The 29er movement is mainly approached with skepticism because it's such a minute change..."

    We've all seen the next "end all be all" piece of technology come down the pike. Once upon a time I was a suspension addict. Trying it all, tweaking it all, riding it all. Remember how much "better" the Horst link was suppose to be over the "faux-bar"; or how VPP designs were the best; oh wait don't forget the DW link. After trying it all I found my favorite to be the lowly single pivot.

    IMO anyone who runs around spouting how much more amazing one type of ride is over another, has fallen for the sucker bait. If your wondering if I've spent a lot of time on a 29er, I haven't, but I have enough experience to sniff out the BS that folks are throwing around. How could such a relatively small change to a bike instantly turn it into a magic carpet ride! Stuff like "I just couldn't have fun on my 26" mountain bike anymore... but now, oh my, biking is soooo wonderfull, because the I'm riding a 29er" What a crock!!! Give any one with a true love for the sport a sweet piece of single track, some sun, and they'll have a blast; be it on a 26er, 29er, FS, gearie, SS, or a Huffy.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but most folks who are out there buying 29ers likely have been involved with biking for a while. They have likely squirreled away a small arsenal of bike parts. Parts that include 26" wheels and tires. What becomes of these? What becomes of your trusted 26er since it is now obsolete? Ready for the trash bin? How many suckers out there have tossed their high zoot custom made 26" frames for the new Holy Grail? Most certainly I have not been immune to such foolishness in the past. Now if you are looking for a new ride I would never suggest not considering a 29er. By all means check it out. Just don't fall for the hype. Again... If something sounds to good to be true, it is.

    Mike
    If your wondering if I've spent a lot of time on a 29er, I haven't

  72. #72
    Don't be a sheep
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    3,422
    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky J
    ...as long as the 26" wheel is holding big riders captive there can never be world peace.

    It is always going to be true that a lighter wheel accelerates more quickly, and that for any given level of technology the smaller wheel is the lighter one. But in my opinion, the relative negative effect of a heavier 29er wheelset decreases as rider size and strength increase. That's good too, because as he gets bigger his ability to comfortably fit within the 26" dynamics envelope is going down (pun intended). Would it be an exaggeration to say that most of the big and tall people who try 29ers BUY 29ers? I like what Ventana's Sherwood Gibson says, 29" wheels aren't for everybody but they ARE for tall people.

    How come we never talk about the magical combination of rolling terrain, long strong legs, taller 29er gearing, and superior real world rolling resistance? It equals Big Speed. Remember how enjoyable it was kicking up dust as a kid? Now you can make "smokescreens" that Halsey would envy to cover your escape. All the others can do is watch you sail over the horizon.
    From everything I've read Sherwood is an intelligent and pragmatic guy.
    "Do not touch the trim"

  73. #73
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    419

    Mr. Gibson

    Amen to that, Rivet.

    In the roadbike world there's been controversies over 650C versus 700C. Here's an article with balanced insights that might apply to our own discussions: http://www.fitwerx.com/NewFiles/Tech...700Wheels.html

  74. #74
    Esperanza
    Reputation: tío loco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    128
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Shake
    Substitute "save some weight" with "add a little over an inch to your tire radius", and the same holds true.

    With 2.35" tires on narrow 26" rims, the wheels I've been riding for years have a radius of 13.35", while my WTBs have a 14.5" Radius. So the axle of my wheels sit 1.15" higher. The curvature difference for the "angle of attack" is so small it's completely lost in deformation bulge of the weighted tire. The contact patch is larger yet on the 2.35s, both in width, and in length. The larger tires weigh the same when static, and in rotation, they're still quicker to accelerate and decelerate due to the smaller radius. But lets just say all this wasn't true, and there was some measurable difference that 1.15" made. How big of an impact does that make? 8.6% Spokes are longer and have to be stronger to support an even more elongated traingle between the hub flanges & rim eyelets. And suspension? Bigger wheels only get more in the way when trying to get more than 4 or 5 inches of travel in, unless you blow the stays out beyond what drivetrains have been engineered to work with. It's pretty limiting. With suspension, you want to take the slop and flex OUT of the bike, and put it all into the suspension. This runs entirely counter to what 29" wheels are about. These are probalby issues you've all heard before. They remain valid. The format is not without shortcomings. To say it's the end-all be-all, and indicate that anyone who says otherwise is a small-minded naysayer is not only incorrect, but foolish as those who say it has no place at all, and says more about you than it says about bikes.
    You make some good points here. But....

    You actually sat down and measured all that sh&! out?!!!? You need to go find yourself women and have sex with her. Better yet, stop measuring your bike and ride it...

    Your position is fatally over-simplified, I suppose its the only way you can argue it...so I won't raise a fuss. There are so many variables that you are either choosing to ignore or are not considering that make your position flawed. Simply put, a 26" wheel with a 2.35 tire is not the dynamic equivalent to a 29er wheel with a WTB tire... that’s a fact. If you believe that the dissimilarity is too minute to make a noticeable difference well than that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. I believe some conditions (most of the ones I ride in) and areas the difference is pronounced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Shake
    I like my 29er just fine, but we've put the cone on people and had them ride 2 identical bikes, and 1 29er and 1 26er, and asked what the advantages of one bike over the other were, and all we determined was that they thought they could tell a difference far more than they actually did.
    Sounds real sceintific. This is prefect example of what I'm talking about. Who's riding? What bikes/components are you using? Where are you riding? What type of trails?? What type of conditions?? There are so many variables at work here that your "test" could be done over and over (changing the many variables like riders and bikes and trails and conditions etc, etc) and come up with different outcomes each time. There are some situations (and areas of the country) were a 29er excels, so I suppose there are some conditions where a 26er excels. Whatever floats your boat. Again I go back to my original post. I do it; Because I can.
    Quotation, n: The act of repeating erroneously the words of another.

  75. #75
    fsp
    fsp is offline

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    853
    Quote Originally Posted by t�o loco
    You make some good points here. But....
    You actually sat down and measured all that sh&! out?!!!? You need to go find yourself women and have sex with her. Better yet, stop measuring your bike and ride it...
    Nice. Shake is married. I know he and his job well. It used to be mine. Measuring this stuff out and conducting market research like the old blind "cone test" (yes, it's a big cone like a dog wears after an operation) IS a big part of his job, and those tests are long and conducted very scientifically. Did you stop & think that maybe he didn't spell every detail for a reason? I won't go into his work any fruther out of respect, but realize that you'd probably be very suprised if you knew where he worked & the impact his work has had on 29ers.

    Actually, I'm suprised you wrote at all, Shake. I was never given the green light on engaging in public. You must be doing something right...


    Pete
    American Velorotica


    All I'll say about 29ers is, I like em fine. However, I'm a little suprised at the lack of knowledge regarding basic Moment of Inertia & its effects on the ridden wheel expressed in this forum.

  76. #76
    highly visible
    Reputation: GlowBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,188

    Feeling, not numbers

    First off, I know it's OT from the original post, but I do think that the idea that our board overhypes 29"ers is itself getting to be a bit overhyped. No one (well, amost no one) is saying 29" wheels are a panacea. Sure there are people that go overboard, but what do you expect on the Internet? For the most part, accusing this board of promoting big wheels as a cure for everything is a straw-man argument. . Here's what most of the sensible people on this board have to say:
    1. Bigger wheels provide substantial benefits
    2. Bigger wheels have their disadvantages, and few here deny them. But for a great number of riders the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.
    3. An 11% difference in rim size (9.5% in overall wheel diameter) is hardly minute. Losing 2.5 pounds off an average XC bike's weight isn't minute. A 200g difference in your wheelset isn't minute. A 17.5mm difference in crank length isn't minute, nor is a 60mm difference in handlebar width. So why would a 10% increase in wheelsize make such a small difference that hardly anyone could tell the difference?


    To answer the original question, of course numbers do matter. I know the weight of every single part on my bike. And I would love to have somebody prove that 29"ers are faster for most real-world riding conditions -- as I suspect is the case. But you know, when it really comes down to it, the feeling I get on the bike trumps any numbers you can come up with. Nat put it beautifully. My way of putting it won't be as eloquent, but here's how I'd sum it up, in my own words.

    For me, riding my bike is about enjoyment. I take enough breaks to smell the flowers, watch the wildlife, explore side trails or just gaze at the scenery, that being a little slower or faster doesn't matter much. It's all about enjoyment, and I enjoy the feeling of the big wheels. I enjoy how they track through mud, sand and snow. I enjoy how they roll over technical obstacles. I enjoy how they resist deflection at speed. I enjoy how they help me maintain my balance through rock gardens and around switchbacks. Of course I don't enjoy how they do accelerate slower and even climb a bit slower, but the tradeoff is worth it several times over.
    Last edited by GlowBoy; 03-06-2006 at 03:48 PM.
    "People like GloyBoy are deaf. They are partisan, intellectually lazy & usually very angry." -Jaybo

  77. #77
    Daniel the Dog
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    6,759

    I hope they have a medication for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    not to mention, 29ers make my weiner tickle
    It doesn't burn does it? Oh, and I'm sure Aquaholic gave you this problem...

    Jaybo

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2019 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.