Black Sheep 29er (w/ Rohloff)- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Black Sheep 29er (w/ Rohloff)

    I’ve had it for three days and only have been able to get ~25 miles on it, but like any of us who pour heart and soul (and cash) into a dream bike – I like it!

    Important Specs
    Frame: Ti Black Sheep with EBB
    Fork: Ti Black Sheep, 425 mm from dropout to headset race
    Important numbers: HTA 72 deg, STA 74 deg, fork rake 50 mm, trail with 50 mm tires is 65 mm, effective TT length 24.25”, chain stays 17.45”, ~12” bb height, 61 mm of bb drop
    Rear hub: Rohloff Speedhub 500/14

    Weight: no accurate measurement yet, but somewhere under 24 pounds as pictured…
    It’s interesting to note that the rear wheel, including tube and tire, weighs 7 lbs…

    The steering is quick – road bike quick. It’s designed that way, with the HTA and fork rake combining for a trail of 65 mm. For comparison, the nice Ti cruiser frame and fork posted a day or so ago has trail around 79 mm, and a Fisher with a Reba fork would have a trail of about 80 mm. I did the experiment – for me, a bike with a trail measurement around 80 mm is a lumbering semi. I apparently have slow-firing neurons or something and consequently require a responsive (some would say squirrely) bike. I have no illusions that what I did in designing this frame would be desirable for others – but for me it works well.

    The big tires do what I would expect them to – roll over things and provide good traction. The Ti fork does some amazing fore and aft flexing when pounding over bedrocks, but it is precise and I have experienced no brake chatter and hence I conclude that it is torsionally rigid. It is surprisingly firm when I get out of the saddle to “sprint” or hump it over a rise. The frame and fork are everything I expected.

    The Rohloff hub is an experience – a new experience and I’ll need many more miles to decide if it’s a good or bad one. In some gears it whines like a creationist shut down by a federal judge, in others it has the efficient feel of a single speed. I’m counting on that break-in period I’ve been warned about to improve the noise and smoothness of the drivetrain. I absolutely love the lines of the bike with the Rohloff, and if I was 10 years younger or didn’t want to race 100 mile events with 18,000 ft of climbing, I’d be single speeding it.
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  2. #2
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    sweeeet

    You are both an owner of a fine bicycle and a skilled writer.

  3. #3
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    Nice

    Clean Customs are Cool, especially ones made in Colorado
    A bike by any other name is still a bike.

  4. #4
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    Black Sheeps Phone#

    I have tried and tried to navigate their website but can't make anything of it. Do you have their ph#? I am looking at a few Ti builders and would like to talk with them also. V

  5. #5
    jl
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    Very nice build. If there was ever a bike that could cure cancer, that would be it ...

    Make sure to give an update on the Rohloff after about 500 mi. That's when everyone says they are finally broken in. I might get one myself one day.
    We don't need more to be thankful for; we just need to be more thankful.

  6. #6
    www.badgercycles.com
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    and the # is

    Quote Originally Posted by vcyclist
    I have tried and tried to navigate their website but can't make anything of it. Do you have their ph#? I am looking at a few Ti builders and would like to talk with them also. V
    970-218-5952 I with you on the website but I understand they are in the process of changing it. Talked to James today and my cross bike is ready to go but wont ship until Monday. Said he wanted to get a bunch of pictures of it over the weekend.

    BTW PeT that is a great looking bike. I'm sure you will enjoy it for many years.

    Oh yea James e-mail is [email protected]

  7. #7
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    Very nice!

    Did you have a Rohloff-like dropout put on? I don't see a speedbone or torque arm back there so I'm curious how the torque reaction is taken care of.

    The differrent sounds and feel in different gears will always be there but I did notice that it was greatly reduced after about 1k and my first oil change.
    "The mouth of justice contemplates wisdom."

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bob
    Did you have a Rohloff-like dropout put on? I don't see a speedbone or torque arm back there so I'm curious how the torque reaction is taken care of.

    The differrent sounds and feel in different gears will always be there but I did notice that it was greatly reduced after about 1k and my first oil change.
    The Rohloff is the OEM2 version. A "peg" is attached to the disc brake mount and the torque is taken care of there.

    I'm not sure if the "feel" and noise is indicative of a loss of efficiency or speed. I think I'll need to ride some of the long climbs after the snow clears, or ride with some of my friends and compare speeds on climbs in order to judge the efficiency of the system.
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  9. #9
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    Baaaaa

    I love the looks of those black sheep. The gray ti with the subtle logo very is Baaaad a$$, simple, elegant, nice bikes. Bearbait up here in AK has one and they are real purty up close. Looks like a nice custom ride, very specific to your tastes and all, just like a custom ride should be. Sounds like money well spent. enjoy.

    Adam


    Quote Originally Posted by PeT
    I’ve had it for three days and only have been able to get ~25 miles on it, but like any of us who pour heart and soul (and cash) into a dream bike – I like it!

    Important Specs
    Frame: Ti Black Sheep with EBB
    Fork: Ti Black Sheep, 425 mm from dropout to headset race
    Important numbers: HTA 72 deg, STA 74 deg, fork rake 50 mm, trail with 50 mm tires is 65 mm, effective TT length 24.25”, chain stays 17.45”, ~12” bb height, 61 mm of bb drop
    Rear hub: Rohloff Speedhub 500/14

    Weight: no accurate measurement yet, but somewhere under 24 pounds as pictured…
    It’s interesting to note that the rear wheel, including tube and tire, weighs 7 lbs…

    The steering is quick – road bike quick. It’s designed that way, with the HTA and fork rake combining for a trail of 65 mm. For comparison, the nice Ti cruiser frame and fork posted a day or so ago has trail around 79 mm, and a Fisher with a Reba fork would have a trail of about 80 mm. I did the experiment – for me, a bike with a trail measurement around 80 mm is a lumbering semi. I apparently have slow-firing neurons or something and consequently require a responsive (some would say squirrely) bike. I have no illusions that what I did in designing this frame would be desirable for others – but for me it works well.

    The big tires do what I would expect them to – roll over things and provide good traction. The Ti fork does some amazing fore and aft flexing when pounding over bedrocks, but it is precise and I have experienced no brake chatter and hence I conclude that it is torsionally rigid. It is surprisingly firm when I get out of the saddle to “sprint” or hump it over a rise. The frame and fork are everything I expected.

    The Rohloff hub is an experience – a new experience and I’ll need many more miles to decide if it’s a good or bad one. In some gears it whines like a creationist shut down by a federal judge, in others it has the efficient feel of a single speed. I’m counting on that break-in period I’ve been warned about to improve the noise and smoothness of the drivetrain. I absolutely love the lines of the bike with the Rohloff, and if I was 10 years younger or didn’t want to race 100 mile events with 18,000 ft of climbing, I’d be single speeding it.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeT
    The Rohloff is the OEM2 version. A "peg" is attached to the disc brake mount and the torque is taken care of there.

    I'm not sure if the "feel" and noise is indicative of a loss of efficiency or speed. I think I'll need to ride some of the long climbs after the snow clears, or ride with some of my friends and compare speeds on climbs in order to judge the efficiency of the system.
    I personally haven't noticed any loss of efficiency in long climbs but I have noticed large gains on rolling terrain where I'm often dumping and adding lots of gears. Definitely report back with your impressions after you get more time to ride. I can see something like this in my future
    Last edited by Mr.Bob; 01-21-2005 at 10:24 PM. Reason: Someday I will learn how to spell
    "The mouth of justice contemplates wisdom."

  11. #11
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    I like the looks of that bike, especially the wide look of that fork. But also it seems to me like the frame is a full size too small for the rider it's set up for. Short headtube, steep STA that requires loads of setback on seat and post, longish stem.
    It's set up similarly to a 72º STA bike with still some setback, a full inch of extra toptube and an inch and a half extra headtube. I'm sure the setback offers nice cush, but I personally would never trust any seatpost to take up that sort of loads. And now you can never slide the seat back some more than it's at now.
    Someone pls educate me, why do people like their bikes this way? When I was in the bizz, this were the sort of setups that broke seats, posts and frames. I hope that seatpost sits 4" into the frames?
    Still like the looks of it though, I love badazz Ti.
    Klok - XC - Skate - Ski

  12. #12
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    I'll try...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    Someone pls educate me, why do people like their bikes this way?
    Yeah, there's plenty of post -- actually less exposed post than on the bike I've ridden for the last 4years. I also have my ratty old seat pushed further forward (back on the rails) too. The stem is also shorter than what I had been running, but not as short as James had recommended, but since I had this one in the parts bin I put it on.

    Frankly, I don't see where you're coming from. I personally like _short_ headtubes, and in this case it allows plenty of standover all along the top tube. I don't like the look of radically sloped top tubes. Another advantage of short head tubes is a greater range of bar height adjustment, particularly in this era of threadless headsets. I like set-back on posts 'cause I'm not fat, don't break parts, perceive a bit of passive suspension from the set-up, and think it gives me more options throughout the riding season with regards to seat placement relative to the cranks. The tighter triangle (less head tube and seat tube) also handles out of the saddle efforts better and keeps the bike torsionally more rigid, and important feature when under power and riding in rough terrain.

    While I'm at it, I'll give a shot at explaining flat and riser bars to you While I certainly haven't been on a jone's bar and would never condemn anyone for running them, I've done enough road and cross riding and bar-end manipulation to know that long sustained efforts are usually done with palms down, hands on the flats -- look at road racers soloing off the front or climbing passes. Part of that is about being aero, part of it is efficiency. Cross racers take the rough stuff on the flats of the bars, not on the hoods or the drops -- I think this is because of control issues. I personally dumped bar ends from everything but my single speed 'cause I found I never used them except when trying to ride a hill over-geared. In a certain way, an elite racer has tried something similar to the Jone's bar -- Ned Overend won the first UCI sanctioned World's XC event on a "Durango" bar, a bar that had every conceivable hand position, including those found on a jone's bar. He used the bars for about a season and then moved back to a "standard" setup -- I doubt it was because he was told to. My guess is that he found he was carrying around a lot of extra bar that was seldom used – what is mtb racing but a long hard time trial? That’s when you put your hands on the flats, suck in your gut, fix a steely gaze on the horizon and let it rip.

    Regardless, I think it is neat that we are all in an economic situation that allows us to indulge our whims and fancies even at being out of the mainstream (witness the jone’s bar and my bike).

  13. #13
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    Great, I almost had my reply done when I killed the screen.
    Unfortunately I could not find a pic of the Durango bar.

    I hear you on all your reasons, but for seat adjustment, you only seem to have the forward variety of that.

    My comments were based on the assumption that the present setup is your middle of the way, or ideal setup. I've also run longer seatposts than that, but never by choice. Well, maybe on the ultra sloping 56cm custom crosser, for quick and smooth forward dismounts.

    Some say short heatubes make for a torionally stiffer frames, some say noodlier. Now what is it? My short headtubed Fisher is not stiffer than my simularly weighing VooDoo's and Cube, it seems to move much more. If shorter is stiffer, from now on I'll always get them as short as possible, because I like a low lowest handlebar position.

    I can imagine an H-bar will not offer much time difference on a really short and explosive race, but for everything over an hour, I see little reasons not to use one. Mine is handly heavier than my quatriple butted flat bar plus extremely light barends, and feels more solid. I would not trust my flat bar for stunts like Jones himself does with the H, even if I had that ball that big.
    On a sidenote : as my 4x bike is SS, and runs a stem only 80mm, I should try it once with a high-rise 100mm stem and H-bar, to see how it feel compared to a riser bar that almost the same width riser in terms of steering and jump control. 4X is all about being in a hurry, and I'll only use one of the many handpositions. A 50g lighter stubby H-bar would suffice, that's a bit lighter than my lightish al riser.

    To sum it all up, ride what works for you, and enjoy it! It's good we're not all on the same bike and setup, riding would be a lot less fun without the personalization.
    Klok - XC - Skate - Ski

  14. #14
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    Bat'leth, a nice inspiration for future bar design?



    Klok - XC - Skate - Ski

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    cranks?

    First off, nice bike, thanks for the write up. ALso, what type of cranks are those?

  16. #16
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    Awesome bike.

    Curious on the Rohloff cables in the second picture. Could you add a couple brake cable noodles coming out of the twist grip for a better angle and to loose some of the extra cable?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kustomz
    Curious on the Rohloff cables in the second picture. Could you add a couple brake cable noodles coming out of the twist grip for a better angle and to loose some of the extra cable?
    I'll think about the brake cable noodles, but I can certainly lose some extra cable, both at the shifter and back near the seat post. I might well end up using some of the nokon type cable housing.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by dompedro3
    First off, nice bike, thanks for the write up. ALso, what type of cranks are those?
    The cranks are Ritchey Logic compacts. I use them because they have a narrow q-factor (154 mm) and they set up the chainline appropriately for the Rohloff hub.

  19. #19
    HIKE!
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    I hope you and your bike make a guest appearance at.....

    http://www.blackhills.com/ridgeriders/index.html That's right, Labor Day weekend, just 320 miles due north of Laramie, a good wind down to your epic ride season! Come on up Peter! Bring Guerin, Tuggle, et al.

    Nice bike, hope Happy Jack either dries out for riding, or stays snowy for skiing, none of that in between crud. The Black Hills are currently dry as a bone if you want to come up and get some off road mileage on that smooth German hub.

  20. #20
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    Congrats on the new ride Peter.

    I'm truly tickled to see that you got your dream ride. It's aesthetically pleasing with the subdued logos and lack of cables/cogs/rings/ders, but it's really the fork that sets it apart for me. The overall package looks like it'd ride like a turbocharged, lowered, all-wheel drive Cadillac. I'll bet that you'll surprise a lot of people with it at the races--they'll write you off at first glance but they'll be truly surprised in the end. Hope that it carries you comfortably and swiftly to many top 100 mile finishes in the coming years.

    MC

  21. #21
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    give rohloff a chance

    Nice ride.
    I have two Rohloff hubs and they still continue to get quieter as time goes on. I think the loss of efficiency of the hubs is markedly over-estimated because of the noise they make, they just 'sound' inefficient.
    I like the cable shifting of the rohloff instead of the shifter box. I've wondered if routing the cables under/in front of the seat stay would present a more direct cable travel? What do you think? I've been contemplating a custom frame as yours (EBB, vert drop out, disc tabs, peg and oem2, v brakes) and considered a boss for the cable adjuster opposite the brake stud.

  22. #22
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    The Dakota 50 is high on my "must do" list...

    Quote Originally Posted by sparrow
    http://www.blackhills.com/ridgeriders/index.html That's right, Labor Day weekend, just 320 miles due north of Laramie, a good wind down to your epic ride season! Come on up Peter! Bring Guerin, Tuggle, et al.

    Nice bike, hope Happy Jack either dries out for riding, or stays snowy for skiing, none of that in between crud. The Black Hills are currently dry as a bone if you want to come up and get some off road mileage on that smooth German hub.
    Thanks, Tim. I note that several of us Laramie types made it up for the most recent race, and I've only heard great things about that race. It's definitely an event I will do.

    We were doing well for skiing at Happy Jack, but a spate of warm weather has created less than ideal conditions. I've done a couple of early morning rides in the foothills to the east while the ground was still frozen -- that will pacify me for awhile.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    I'm truly tickled to see that you got your dream ride. It's aesthetically pleasing with the subdued logos and lack of cables/cogs/rings/ders, but it's really the fork that sets it apart for me. The overall package looks like it'd ride like a turbocharged, lowered, all-wheel drive Cadillac. I'll bet that you'll surprise a lot of people with it at the races--they'll write you off at first glance but they'll be truly surprised in the end. Hope that it carries you comfortably and swiftly to many top 100 mile finishes in the coming years.

    MC
    I really appreciate these comments, particularly considering the source! Yeah, I've used the "be written off" at the start line as motivation before -- but it has usually been because of my un-imposing physical presence. I got another 20 miles on it this morning -- I'm more convinced than ever about James of Black Sheep's artistry, both from an aesthetic and design standpoint.
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