All options? 29er, Horst link, big travel bikes- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    All options? 29er, Horst link, big travel bikes

    Deciding that I want my next bike to be a Horst link 29er with 130-160 travel.

    Number one on my list is the transition sentinel alloy, built up GX with the Fox 36.

    What other brands have a good Horst link bike? So far Iíve found
    1. Scott
    2. Trek
    3. Canyon
    4. Rocky
    Any other notable mentions? And does anyone have any experience with any of these bikes. Looking for this one to be my backcountry heavy hitter/ local enduro race bike.


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  2. #2
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    GG Smash
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    Fezzari Signal Peak (For Sale)
    Pivot Shuttle (wife's)

  3. #3
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    The ďclassicĒ Horst iteration: Specialized Enduro or Stumpy.
    Just like a raindrop, I was born to fall.

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  5. #5
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    All options? 29er, Horst link, big travel bikes

    Found the NS snabb 150 today, really stylish bike. But I havenít really heard anything in terms of reliability, squeaks, etc about NS

    Also the Norco range A1 seems like a damn good deal, and solid bike


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  6. #6
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    I was gonna start a thread but was dreading it so I'll ask here. New Stumpy or Fuel EX ( 29er)? Thanks in advance..CF.

  7. #7
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    I've got two months on my Enduro coil. If I had to go back, I would buy it again.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRAZY FRED View Post
    I was gonna start a thread but was dreading it so I'll ask here. New Stumpy or Fuel EX ( 29er)? Thanks in advance..CF.
    Now that Specialized has finally thrown in the towel on their proprietary suspension crap and has gone back to a threaded BB shell, I'd go with the Specialized. You can run any shock you want on it now. The regular Stump has a bit more travel than the Trek EX, and the Stumpy ST has just a bit less.

    A couple months back I demo'd the Stumpy ST, the Trek EX, and the Giant Trance 29. I liked the ride and fit of the Stumpy ST over the Trek, but in the end I went with the Trance.
    The Trance was a better climbing rig with less bob in full open, and seemed more plush on the small to medium sized stuff even though on paper it has less travel. The Stumpy was a very nice trail rig that handled great.

    That being said, all three bikes are far and away above what was available just a few short years ago and I would have been thrilled to have any of them over my older hardtail or Specialized Epic Comp for a trail bike.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xlr8n View Post
    Now that Specialized has finally thrown in the towel on their proprietary suspension crap and has gone back to a threaded BB shell, I'd go with the Specialized. You can run any shock you want on it now. The regular Stump has a bit more travel than the Trek EX, and the Stumpy ST has just a bit less.

    A couple months back I demo'd the Stumpy ST, the Trek EX, and the Giant Trance 29. I liked the ride and fit of the Stumpy ST over the Trek, but in the end I went with the Trance.
    The Trance was a better climbing rig with less bob in full open, and seemed more plush on the small to medium sized stuff even though on paper it has less travel. The Stumpy was a very nice trail rig that handled great.

    That being said, all three bikes are far and away above what was available just a few short years ago and I would have been thrilled to have any of them over my older hardtail or Specialized Epic Comp for a trail bike.
    Great reply thanks.

  10. #10
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    Cannondale Habit, YT Jeffsy could be worth a look

  11. #11
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    Another vote for the GG Smash or Trail Pistol (in Pistola fashion). Great bikes, great company and you can build up however you want.

  12. #12
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    If you can hold off for a bit the new Specialized Enduro should be out in a month or two, should be an absolute beast.

    In the mean time and at the risk of sounding like a broken record in these forums, the Stumpy Evo has been a total game changer for me. Not to mention if you were interested in the Sentinel the Evo geo is very similar but from what Iíve heard pedals much better. Downside is the limited sizing but as long as youíre no taller than 6í2Ē you should be good. Iím 5í10Ē and the S3 with the seat slammed forward feels spot on.
    Many are racing it and tweeking the shock to get extra travel out back and/or are going with longer forks. Iím actually very happy with the stock travel and geo in high mode as it kills as an everyday aggressive trail weapon.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    Another vote for the GG Smash or Trail Pistol (in Pistola fashion). Great bikes, great company and you can build up however you want.

    This. Guerrilla gravity is a company that should be supported. They are the new Turner bikes.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  14. #14
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    All options? 29er, Horst link, big travel bikes

    Iím leaning towards an alloy bike, I have my own beliefs about the recyclability of carbon and the necessity of it in the bicycle industry. I know myself isnít going to make a difference depriving myself of carbon but alloy bikes will be first up on the list. Another attractive thing about the sentinel and other bikes. Also the GG headsets look goofy to me

    But I do think their build up options are brilliant and that more companies should do that. A lot of bikes I wonít look at because they wonít be specd with Shimanoís new drivetrain.


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  15. #15
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    Norco. Alloy and carbon available.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sender420shred View Post
    Iím leaning towards an alloy bike, I have my own beliefs about the recyclability of carbon and the necessity of it in the bicycle industry.k
    Looked into Commencal? They aren't Horst links, but they stopped using carbon in their products.

    From their website:
    Quote Originally Posted by Commencal
    2012 is also the year of decisions, notably "no carbon." Without dwelling on the subject and without denigrating anyone, we believe this material is difficult and dangerous to implement and is not currently processed within an acceptable environment for workers in China and elsewhere. In addition, producing non-recyclable and impact-shy frames (in an ever increasing eco world) when weíre trying to makes thing cleaner and greener seems inappropriate. Inevitably, all this is just to save a few grams. For sure, we go against the norm and we may miss out on some sales but we expect it.

    https://www.commencalusa.com/?Currency=USD

  17. #17
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    YT jeffsy or Capra depending on what you want to do with it

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sender420shred View Post
    Iím leaning towards an alloy bike, I have my own beliefs about the recyclability of carbon and the necessity of it in the bicycle industry. I know myself isnít going to make a difference depriving myself of carbon but alloy bikes will be first up on the list. Another attractive thing about the sentinel and other bikes. Also the GG headsets look goofy to me

    But I do think their build up options are brilliant and that more companies should do that. A lot of bikes I wonít look at because they wonít be specd with Shimanoís new drivetrain.


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    Any particular reason? I was pretty much the same as you but have to say that the GG carbon is freaking stellar. I had never planned to go with a carbon bike and was deadset on getting an alloy GG at the beginning of the year. Then they went and changed things up! After riding it for the last couple months it has been nothing but a stellar bike. Love the feel, how burly it is, and how it just begs me to go faster and faster on the dh.

    Main issue you will run into is the lead time for the frames. I put in my order a week after release and it took almost 12wks to get my bike. Lead time at that point was 4-6wks according to their website but talking with them about it, they said they expected an influx of orders but were hit with an absolute tsunami.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegard View Post
    Looked into Commencal? They aren't Horst links, but they stopped using carbon in their products.

    From their website:



    https://www.commencalusa.com/?Currency=USD
    I currently have a Commencal meta am4 and really enjoy it, especially for the price. It has a couple squeaks though and is decently flexible. I probably would get another but I want to try a couple other brands. Iíll keep my meta though for friends family etc..


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  20. #20
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    Couple of things, carbon is nice from one perspective, repairability. It's possible to repair a carbon break fairly easily on a non-complex surface (tube) and the repair often ends up stronger than the original at a slightly heavier weight.

    Next, why a horst-link? Kinematics have proven that a seatstay pivot does not give up anything to a chainstay pivot (horst link) and can usually give slightly better kinematic performance (not so much of a falling AS curve), a stiffer rear end (without a pivot on the swingarm between the main pivot and the wheel) and arguably better brake characteristics (a slight amount of squat is beneficial for keeping the rear end from rising up down steep chutes and terrain).

    There are lots of good bikes to choose from and even a good number of decent horst links these days, but why predicate it on that?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  21. #21
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    I've been riding a NS Snabb 130 for the past couple of years. Awesome bike! I can say it's been very reliable and built like a tank! The threaded BB, external cable routing, and simple pivot hardware make it easy to work on and maintain. The stock NS rims have also been surprisingly tough.

    The bike has a lot of anti-squat, so it pedals a little on the stiff side. It definitely does not feel like a Specialized. It's a really easy bike to go fast on, though. The Snabb line is a bit of a gem in my mind, but I might be biased.
    The cake is a lie.

  22. #22
    on a routine expedition
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    RAAW Madonna

    https://www.raawmtb.com/madonnatech

    Now available in North America

    https://nsmb.com/articles/raaw-bikes...le-canada-usa/

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails All options? 29er, Horst link, big travel bikes-raaw_driveside.jpg  

    Last edited by Marshall Willanholly; 07-18-2019 at 08:40 PM.

  23. #23
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    I really like that raw. Iíll have to check it out further


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  24. #24
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    All options? 29er, Horst link, big travel bikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Couple of things, carbon is nice from one perspective, repairability. It's possible to repair a carbon break fairly easily on a non-complex surface (tube) and the repair often ends up stronger than the original at a slightly heavier weight.

    Next, why a horst-link? Kinematics have proven that a seatstay pivot does not give up anything to a chainstay pivot (horst link) and can usually give slightly better kinematic performance (not so much of a falling AS curve), a stiffer rear end (without a pivot on the swingarm between the main pivot and the wheel) and arguably better brake characteristics (a slight amount of squat is beneficial for keeping the rear end from rising up down steep chutes and terrain).

    There are lots of good bikes to choose from and even a good number of decent horst links these days, but why predicate it on that?
    When it comes to the major suspension designs I donít think any of them are superior over the others. They all provide their own characteristics and a company selects them for their desired dynamics and marketing. (The later sometimes playing a bigger part.) Again this is all dependent on the design. But when learning kinematics in school, 4 bar is king in terms of dynamic geometric control.

    A falling anti squat curve is something I look at as a benefit, less kickback deeper into the travel. Also, Horst link bikes tend to be on the progressive side without to much ramp up and have more active suspension when the brakes are applied. They also donít require a premium in price, as the DW bikes tend to.

    Again, a well designed bike will handle great if itís a 4 bar, single pivot, or DW. But I believe for my riding a 4 bar will benefit me slightly.

    They also look the best imo




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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sender420shred View Post
    But when learning kinematics in school, 4 bar is king in terms of dynamic geometric control.
    4-bar just means 4 members, which a seat-stay pivot bike has. Specialized marketing "programmed" mountain bikers with adds to think that 4-bar=horst. They were trying to prevent Kona, RM and others from getting sales. This is where the "true 4-bar" lingo came from, but mechanically, the design just requires 4 members, and that's any linkage bike, whether chainstay pivot, seatstay, or "mini-link". I assume you are referring to horst in that statement.

    Secondly, are you referring to cars there about the schooling part? Because that is the only place I know of where that could happen, and that that suspension works perpendicular to a bicycle, in other words to be the "same thing" and even absorb bumps in the same direction, the car would have to be traveling sideways, ignoring the severely different effects of pedaling and weight transfer, it's still not even close to the same thing. It doesn't work in the same way.

    One of the reasons it was used was that most people climbed in the small ring, so back when there were radically different chainring sizes, the kinematics would be a bit better for pedaling when you went down to the granny gear, effectively "boosting" anti-squat. Double edged sword though, if you liked to climb in the middle ring or power-up stuff in a higher gear, it worked against you, requiring more effort as some of your effort went into squatting the rear rather than moving forward. This meant a lot more shifting too if you really wanted to get the best out of it.

    You'll get kickback if you have significantly more than 100% AS, which few bikes do, except some of the horst bikes do start out with crazy high AS amounts around 150-200%, but the main point I was making is that single pivots can and do replicate this performance just fine, with sloping AS curves and flatter ones, depending on which one you choose.

    What I think some people describe as "kickback" is actually when they compare the low-anti-squat horst link bikes behavior uphill over rocky/bumpy stuff. When this happens, the suspension sinks further into the travel, where there's less anti-squat, so you pedal harder, which compresses the suspension more, to a point where there's even less anti-squat, which requires you to pedal even harder, and all the time the front end is getting lighter and lighter and shifting more weight rearward, again, compressing the suspension further. It's somewhat of a "feedback loop" that makes the bike use an abnormally large amount of travel uphill, giving that "crazy good digging-in feeling", but sapping a lot of energy in the process. When someone goes and hops on a bike that doesn't do this, one that uses approximately the "same" amount of travel downhill on a bump as it does uphill, they think they are feeling "kickback" because the suspension isn't going as far and sucking up as much. For sure, there are still some very high AS bikes, some horst-links even start out at crazy high numbers in an attempt to shift the entire curve up a bit. And this "crazy plush uphill" feeling can have some benefits for traction obviously, but apart from the energy, one of the primary issues is the front end getting really light. This increases with the front travel (height). 29ers help to mitigate this a little with more weight further out and this is also mitigated by shifting the seat angle forward and getting more weight over the front, but it'll also provide a much different seating position on level terrain and some report that this puts too much weight on their hands while descending.

    Again, you don't need a horst-link to have a falling AS curve, plenty of single pivot linkage bikes do. They also have arguably better braking characteristics with some squat designed in, which reduces forward-pitching moment during braking, especially helpful down steep stuff to not have the bike pitching forward. Helps to maintain geometry during turns.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sender420shred View Post
    Deciding that I want my next bike to be a Horst link 29er with 130-160 travel.

    Number one on my list is the transition sentinel alloy, built up GX with the Fox 36.

    What other brands have a good Horst link bike?
    Whyte S-150 is a good choice to explore
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sender420shred View Post
    Also the GG headsets look goofy to me

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    What's goofy is that it took a small company from the Colorado Front Range to come up with the idea, which is quite brilliant! The ability to change your front triangle length by 10mm is a game changer, allowing riders to fine tune frame fit, no other company offers this option.
    Guerilla Gravity Shred Dogg
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    What's goofy is that it took a small company from the Colorado Front Range to come up with the idea, which is quite brilliant! The ability to change your front triangle length by 10mm is a game changer, allowing riders to fine tune frame fit, no other company offers this option.

    Heck, this is a company that figured out how to manufacture carbon bike frames in the USA for $2440. Most other companies run from that to $4000! That is just nuts.
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  29. #29
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    Fezzari La Sal Peak would be a good "long travel" 29er with Horst Link. They get a lot of really good reviews and pub out here in Utah where they are based.

  30. #30
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    I've demo'd the '18 Enduro, '19 Stumpy and '19 Instinct BC. Sadly, the new lower link Bronson I just rode was almost as plush as those (except the enduro) but pedaled uphill amazingly with no hangups in uphill tech climbs. Plush yet very supportive somehow. Can't explain it. Second best of those was the Instinct BC. Plush and climbing very well. Surprise how little bob it had compared to the Stumpy since they both felt the same downhill. Stumpy was too soft and too low. Pedals hit all over the place and not just on rocks like normal. Enduro was just too much of a good thing. Best for shuttle, resorts or big doubles like 4 bike length plus.
    2020 Ripmo AF

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    What's goofy is that it took a small company from the Colorado Front Range to come up with the idea, which is quite brilliant! The ability to change your front triangle length by 10mm is a game changer, allowing riders to fine tune frame fit, no other company offers this option.
    I donít think itís something Iíd actually use in practicality though, just one more adjustment to drive me crazy wondering if it would be better opposite of what I have it


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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    4-bar just means 4 members, which a seat-stay pivot bike has. Specialized marketing "programmed" mountain bikers with adds to think that 4-bar=horst. They were trying to prevent Kona, RM and others from getting sales. This is where the "true 4-bar" lingo came from, but mechanically, the design just requires 4 members, and that's any linkage bike, whether chainstay pivot, seatstay, or "mini-link". I assume you are referring to horst in that statement.

    Secondly, are you referring to cars there about the schooling part? Because that is the only place I know of where that could happen, and that that suspension works perpendicular to a bicycle, in other words to be the "same thing" and even absorb bumps in the same direction, the car would have to be traveling sideways, ignoring the severely different effects of pedaling and weight transfer, it's still not even close to the same thing. It doesn't work in the same way.

    One of the reasons it was used was that most people climbed in the small ring, so back when there were radically different chainring sizes, the kinematics would be a bit better for pedaling when you went down to the granny gear, effectively "boosting" anti-squat. Double edged sword though, if you liked to climb in the middle ring or power-up stuff in a higher gear, it worked against you, requiring more effort as some of your effort went into squatting the rear rather than moving forward. This meant a lot more shifting too if you really wanted to get the best out of it.

    You'll get kickback if you have significantly more than 100% AS, which few bikes do, except some of the horst bikes do start out with crazy high AS amounts around 150-200%, but the main point I was making is that single pivots can and do replicate this performance just fine, with sloping AS curves and flatter ones, depending on which one you choose.

    What I think some people describe as "kickback" is actually when they compare the low-anti-squat horst link bikes behavior uphill over rocky/bumpy stuff. When this happens, the suspension sinks further into the travel, where there's less anti-squat, so you pedal harder, which compresses the suspension more, to a point where there's even less anti-squat, which requires you to pedal even harder, and all the time the front end is getting lighter and lighter and shifting more weight rearward, again, compressing the suspension further. It's somewhat of a "feedback loop" that makes the bike use an abnormally large amount of travel uphill, giving that "crazy good digging-in feeling", but sapping a lot of energy in the process. When someone goes and hops on a bike that doesn't do this, one that uses approximately the "same" amount of travel downhill on a bump as it does uphill, they think they are feeling "kickback" because the suspension isn't going as far and sucking up as much. For sure, there are still some very high AS bikes, some horst-links even start out at crazy high numbers in an attempt to shift the entire curve up a bit. And this "crazy plush uphill" feeling can have some benefits for traction obviously, but apart from the energy, one of the primary issues is the front end getting really light. This increases with the front travel (height). 29ers help to mitigate this a little with more weight further out and this is also mitigated by shifting the seat angle forward and getting more weight over the front, but it'll also provide a much different seating position on level terrain and some report that this puts too much weight on their hands while descending.

    Again, you don't need a horst-link to have a falling AS curve, plenty of single pivot linkage bikes do. They also have arguably better braking characteristics with some squat designed in, which reduces forward-pitching moment during braking, especially helpful down steep stuff to not have the bike pitching forward. Helps to maintain geometry during turns.
    Iím not sure what your trying to convince me of? Sounds like you wanted to throw up your mountain bike suspension knowledge on a thread somewhere.

    I believe a Horst link will provide me the best option with the characteristics Iím looking for. Iím sorry if this doesnít agree with your personal theory of mountain bike suspension platforms.


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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sender420shred View Post
    Iím not sure what your trying to convince me of? Sounds like you wanted to throw up your mountain bike suspension knowledge on a thread somewhere.

    I believe a Horst link will provide me the best option with the characteristics Iím looking for. Iím sorry if this doesnít agree with your personal theory of mountain bike suspension platforms.


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    You can believe what you want, kinematics don't support it acting any different than a single-pivot seatstay pivot bike as far as suspension.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  34. #34
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    At the end of the day. Its up to personal preference. Altho I havent ridden many bikes so far.

    Merida One-twenty 600
    Mondraker Dune in Saalbach for 4 days straight
    Stumpjumper comp carbon 2019 which is my own current bike at home. I tbh didnt feel much difference in between these three bikes except that my carbon feels stiffer than the merida. The Mondraker was just as good as my spec.

    If you havent tried the stumpy 19, give it a go. Its a brilliant bike altho, it feels like you get alot less for your money in terms of eq apart from the carbon frame which is same across all carbon models.

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