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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    I can't seem to find anywhere on the pro mance site, is the geometry chart based off a 100mm fork?
    Small ring in front makes it easier. Small ring in back makes it harder. That blows my mind.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenny7 View Post
    I can't seem to find anywhere on the pro mance site, is the geometry chart based off a 100mm fork?
    Yes.

  3. #103
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    Sissy, what seatpost is that?
    Small ring in front makes it easier. Small ring in back makes it harder. That blows my mind.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenny7 View Post
    Sissy, what seatpost is that?
    This one:

    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2017...823444196.html

    I'm now using this one:

    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Road...822592827.html

    Both are flawless.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    Does the clamp on that second one get along with the carbon rails? If you are still using that carbon saddle.
    Small ring in front makes it easier. Small ring in back makes it harder. That blows my mind.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenny7 View Post
    Does the clamp on that second one get along with the carbon rails? If you are still using that carbon saddle.
    Yes, I'm still using the same saddle and that second seatpost clamp mechanism does work with oval carbon rails just fine.

    It's definitely not what anyone would recommend, but it works perfectly for me and it's crazy lightweight.

  7. #107
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    This is the 2019 BMC Fourstroke, presented to the world in September 2018. So just a couple of months ago. Great and very clean looking bike imo.

    https://www.bmc-switzerland.com/us-e...stroke-01-one/

    Anyways, according to BMC and various media, the newest Fourstroke is a new breed XC racer 'born to surpass the latest demands of the world's top XC athletes'.

    Irony and funny at the same time. Because although different in detail, in essence, this newest BMC Fourstroke is very similar in terms of geometry and design to the Pro-Mance M7007. And how long does Pro-Mance produce the M7007 already...? Right, for nearly a year or so.

    Again proof that the Chinese bike industry is quite progressive in the field of geometry and certainly should not be underestimated. Tumbs up!

    Nice tires on the Fourstroke though. If I had known that a bit earlier...
    Love my own Pro-Mance though.

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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry77 View Post
    Nice tires on the Fourstroke though. If I had known that a bit earlier...
    Love my own Pro-Mance though.

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    That's a really nice colorway and build! Is that more than 100mm travel up front?

    Speaking of progression in the bike industry at the factories themselves, take a look at this new frame:

    21lb FS 29er build (Pro-Mance M9007)-highlight-1.jpg
    130mm travel, split seat tube to hide shock linkage. QTOUR factory in Jiangsu. It's out for OEM sales now, but I'll bet you could pick something up by emailing QTOUR direct. Quite the looker and really well designed.

    I'm very curious, does anyone know how many big-brand designers actually work at the factories themselves or how many big brands subcontract the factory for design?

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissypants View Post
    That's a really nice colorway and build! Is that more than 100mm travel up front?

    Speaking of progression in the bike industry at the factories themselves, take a look at this new frame:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    130mm travel, split seat tube to hide shock linkage. QTOUR factory in Jiangsu. It's out for OEM sales now, but I'll bet you could pick something up by emailing QTOUR direct. Quite the looker and really well designed.

    I'm very curious, does anyone know how many big-brand designers actually work at the factories themselves or how many big brands subcontract the factory for design?
    Thanks for the compliments, Sissypants.

    And yep, I have mounted a fork with 120mm of travel. As well as a dropper seat post. This gives the bike a 1 degree slacker head angle (68 degrees) and a more trail friendly character. I take the weight penalty (400 grams in total) for granted.
    I even think about fitting a 120mm RS Pike (stiffer, more advanced fork) to create an ultimate compromise between an fast XC and playful trail animal.


    About the proposed QTOUR frame. I have seen it before at Pinkbike. This will also be an 'open mold' design, I think, since Agogo also offers the same frame. Looks promising.

    The listed specs are somewhat vague and unclear though. Pinkbike mentions that this frame is designed for a 100m fork, QTOUR says 130mm.
    Noteworthy is also the immense reach (size XL) or 500mm, but a relatively low stack of 593mm.
    Also a seat angle of 70 degrees seems strange, just like the specified shock hardware of (only) 165mm. So it is a XC bike or trail bike frame? It looks badass though.

    If someone already has real world experience with this M06 frame, please post your experiences. I am very intrigued.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry77 View Post
    The listed specs are somewhat vague and unclear though. Pinkbike mentions that this frame is designed for a 100m fork, QTOUR says 130mm.
    Noteworthy is also the immense reach (size XL) or 500mm, but a relatively low stack of 593mm.
    Also a seat angle of 70 degrees seems strange, just like the specified shock hardware of (only) 165mm. So it is a XC bike or trail bike frame? It looks badass though.

    If someone already has real world experience with this M06 frame, please post your experiences. I am very intrigued.
    It's not an XC bike, it's a Trail bike. PB had travel wrong. It's designed around 130mm front and rear. To keep this thread on topic, I started a new thread here:

    https://forums.mtbr.com/29er-bikes/q...l#post13890573

    I too am very intrigued.

  11. #111
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    Isnít that the frame that PB said has no hardware where the main pivot would be?

    Like, itís literally not rideable, as displayed?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Death from Below.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Isnít that the frame that PB said has no hardware where the main pivot would be?

    Like, itís literally not rideable, as displayed?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    No, that was the VPP3 from Pro-Mance they were referring to, and they stood corrected in the comments section. The frame is totally rideable and there is hardware there. I even talked to my contact at Pro-Mance and the VPP3 is ready to sell. They won't sell something that doesn't work.

    When I read that article I was under the strong impression the author wanted to butcher these frames and downplay the companies selling them, at least was the way his writing came across.

  13. #113
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    Thanks for the detailed build info, pretty close to ordering a frame now.

    Hoping to build up a 29" boost bike capable of our local 'XC' races that most people would consider 'enduro rides'. Bit confused with rear travel, is it 100mm or 110mm? I see there are two shock options with 38mm or 44mm stroke options, but that doesn't quite add up, does it?

    MTB

    Looking on their site, I can't really tell the difference between the new M7007-II and M7007. They are listing both at the exact same weight, but it looks like the change is in clearance around the drivetrain. Not sure what to go with. Can anybody point me in the right direction? Would also like the T1000 frame mentioned, but don't see the option on there (was planning on shooting them a message).

    Should I be considering other brands/frames at this point? Geo looks good to me, just wish it was ~1 deg slacker to start. I will be running a 120mm fork up front.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by spec47 View Post
    Hoping to build up a 29" boost bike capable of our local 'XC' races that most people would consider 'enduro rides'.
    You're sure this is the right steed for you? What about more of a trail bike? ICAN P8, QTOUR M04, etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by spec47 View Post
    Bit confused with rear travel, is it 100mm or 110mm? I see there are two shock options with 38mm or 44mm stroke options, but that doesn't quite add up, does it?
    Rear wheel travel is advertised at 100mm. Shock options don't make sense to me either, I just went with 44mm and I think everybody else on this thread has as well. Hongfu advertises 44mm for the same frame.

    Quote Originally Posted by spec47 View Post
    Looking on their site, I can't really tell the difference between the new M7007-II and M7007. They are listing both at the exact same weight, but it looks like the change is in clearance around the drivetrain. Not sure what to go with. Can anybody point me in the right direction? Would also like the T1000 frame mentioned, but don't see the option on there (was planning on shooting them a message).
    They do offer a superlight Toray 800/1000 option which will shave 120g, you'll probably have to get a custom production either way but they will likely have a partially manufactured raw frame (front triangle) in the non-ultralight version laying around. This means they'd just need to do a rear triangle and you could probably get it at your door within a month, instead of a month and a half.

    The difference between models is clearance for a 32T chainring in the 27.5x3.0"/29x~2.5" model and a 36T chainring in the 29x2.4" model.

    Should I be considering other brands/frames at this point? Geo looks good to me, just wish it was ~1 deg slacker to start. I will be running a 120mm fork up front.
    Have you considered an angleset? There unfortunately aren't 29er boost trail options out there, other than QTOUR and one from TanTan, I believe.

  15. #115
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    I've got a Santa Cruz Hightower (135/150mm) for more serious rides, always figure it's more fun to ride a small bike fast than a big bike slow. Won't be racing until the snow melts in several months, so time isn't a huge concern and it might be worth the wait for me.

    Have thought about an angleset, just a bit concerned about stressing the frame while already running a 120mm fork. Certainly worth considering. Thanks for the help

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by spec47 View Post
    I've got a Santa Cruz Hightower (135/150mm) for more serious rides, always figure it's more fun to ride a small bike fast than a big bike slow. Won't be racing until the snow melts in several months, so time isn't a huge concern and it might be worth the wait for me.

    Have thought about an angleset, just a bit concerned about stressing the frame while already running a 120mm fork. Certainly worth considering. Thanks for the help
    I have built my M7007 more trail-ish and have drawn inspiration from trendy bikes such as the Scott Spark, Intense Sniper Trail and Yeti SB100.

    I put a 120mm fork on my M7007, wide rims and tires and also a dropper post. The result is indeed a more capable bike on the descents and still a very good climber and speed machine. But the end result is no trail/AM bike like my YT Jeffsy, however.

    The PM M7007 is noticeably a fast XC bike at heart. That is how it was designed, after all. But as said, with some meatier components on it (and with that a one degree slacker HA) is feels more capable then a pure XC racer like the Specialized Epic and Canyon Lux (with their classic geo and steep headangle).

  17. #117
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    Hi folks,

    Great info on this thread. I'm thinking about getting either a catalogue frame or a Canyon Lux for endurance and XC MTB riding and racing. I've had MTBs before (2012 Scalpel 29 and 2008ish Ibis Mojo 26), but spent the last few years riding road and a bit of cross and gravel.

    I've costed out a Chinese build, which surprisingly doesn't come out much cheaper than a Lux. Am I missing something in terms of pricing? Prices are approximations, in usd.

    I would hope to have some savings with a catalogue build. If I get to the conclusion that it makes sense I'll have a bunch of questions 😊

    Thanks


  18. #118
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    If you are building a frame from scratch, buying every part and not switching some or all over from another build, it is usually more expensive. I'm moving all of my parts over from another frame so it is a lot cheaper for me to get the promance. $1000 with shock vs $3500+ for a Scott or similar name brand frame.
    Small ring in front makes it easier. Small ring in back makes it harder. That blows my mind.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by jever98 View Post
    I've costed out a Chinese build, which surprisingly doesn't come out much cheaper than a Lux. Am I missing something in terms of pricing? Prices are approximations, in usd.
    Canyon is definitely one of the most bang-for-buck brands out there. I respect their pricing a lot, but if you compare your specs to their specs at an equivalent price point, you're still substantially ahead.

    Your power meter seems to be driving up the costs quite a bit. To really compare your build kit to the Canyon Lux, maybe that should be left out of the analysis?

    There are some small places you can shave costs too which add up:
    - Get BTLOS wheels instead of Speedsafe (https://btlos.com/) - save $30. They are the manufacturer for Speedasfe wheels
    - Get XTR brakes from Universal Cycles ($270 for set of M9000 race) save $30
    - Get Ashima AI2 rotors for $30/pair on eBay or Aliexpress rotors for $10/pair (stuff similar to centerline out there as well for <$10)
    - You can get stock Axles for $10/ea. from Pro-Mance, but they will be heavy.
    - I don't know what kind of grips you're looking at, but the ones I used were $2 each after shipping from Aliexpress (silicone). I use them for about 500-1000 miles before slicing them up and putting on a new pair. Super comfortable.
    - Not sure if you have a handlebar in mind, but I get all my carbon bars for $15 from Aliexpress. Just don't overtighten clamps on the handlebar, that's why 99% of them break.

    Do you really need 12 speeds and the latest Shimano shifting tech? You can save almost $100 going with XTR/GX hybrid 1x11 system, and that's a bit lighter as well. Should work just as well.

    Did you forget to include the cost of shipping in your frame price? That's most likely going to be $85. Shock hardware is probably going to cost you $20-$30 actually.

    I find that I can build anything onto a catalog frame and always beat MSRP on any brand name frame, but I am willing to shop around, go for last year's parts or lightly used parts sold at a huge cut on eBay. Consumer-direct downhill and enduro bikes are an exception.

    I played around on eBay auctions quite a bit and saved a lot of money. Sent in offers before auctions closed, negotiated with sellers as auctions wound up, and got some sweet bargains. This spreadsheet may give you some ideas:

    21lb FS 29er build (Pro-Mance M9007)-picture2.jpg

  20. #120
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    @sissypants: thanks for the detailed info, that's super useful! I agree, with US pricing you would be ahead with the build, to really make a Lux cheaper I'd have to buy it in Germany and import it to the States. They have a very cost-effective model in Germany that's not sold in the states (the 7.0 SL).

    That said, I still like the idea of building myself and I I build up a frame, I am looking at either the Workswell 145, or the Carbonda CFR666 (CFR666 - Full Suspension - Carbonda Sports Equipment Co., Ltd.) right now. Both have aspects that I like:
    - Boost spacing
    - Geometry close to the Lux (which reassures me)
    - Space for 2 bottle cages (good for endurance racing)
    - Internal dropper routing, internal lock out routing.

    I have ordered from Carbonda before (their gravel frame) and found them to be reliable.

    The things I am wondering about:
    - The Carbonda has a shorter shock (165x38) vs the Workwell's 195x51 - is a longer shock preferable in terms of performance (e.g., due to higher air volume)?
    - I keep reading about shock and suspension tuning voodoo, but have little idea about it. Do I need to make sure I have the right shock, or do I even need to get it tuned? I find it really difficult to make sense of the large range of shocks available and to know what I should go for. I was thinking of getting one with handlebar lock out and maybe rebound tuning.
    - Brand manufacturers make much of how amazing their suspension is. how close do these frames come? I am mindful both of the marketing spiel that manufacturers put out, and of the fact that we all have confirmation bias, making us feel positive about our builds :-)
    - Lastly - what's the experience with the linkages and pivots - do the good catalogue frames keep up with Canyon, Scott, etc., in terms of longevity and tolerances?

    Thanks again for the help.

  21. #121
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    Saw this post and then forgot about it, sorry for the delay!

    Quote Originally Posted by jever98 View Post
    I have ordered from Carbonda before (their gravel frame) and found them to be reliable.
    The Carbonda CFR505 seems super nice. Lots of people in love with that frame over at ridinggravel.com. I almost got it at one point too

    Quote Originally Posted by jever98 View Post
    The Carbonda has a shorter shock (165x38) vs the Workwell's 195x51 - is a longer shock preferable in terms of performance (e.g., due to higher air volume)?
    Not my area of expertise, but I'm not aware of a relationship between shock length and performance. I'd need to come up with a good way to quantify "performance" and then see the data, not marketing promises, speculations, or forum chit-chat. My guess is if it mattered there would be a much more dominant preference in the industry.

    Quote Originally Posted by jever98 View Post
    I keep reading about shock and suspension tuning voodoo, but have little idea about it. Do I need to make sure I have the right shock, or do I even need to get it tuned? I find it really difficult to make sense of the large range of shocks available and to know what I should go for. I was thinking of getting one with handlebar lock out and maybe rebound tuning.
    Tuning is important if you want to remove spacers, swap out seals or make custom modifications, but I don't know much about the process. Shocks work very well right out of the box and are usually set up to how most riders will want it.

    You do need a 165mmx38mm (6.5" x 1.5") shock and you will need two specific spacer kits. I just threw the shock on my bike went to the trail with my shock pump and adjusted the pressure until I liked it. I'm pretty practical I'd only get lockout if you feel like you'll use it a lot and aren't able to reach down to flip the lever once or twice a ride. For me it would have been just extra weight and clutter.

    Quote Originally Posted by jever98 View Post
    Brand manufacturers make much of how amazing their suspension is. how close do these frames come? I am mindful both of the marketing spiel that manufacturers put out, and of the fact that we all have confirmation bias, making us feel positive about our builds :-)
    I could just copy-and-paste the bike review paragraph about Scott Spark suspension kinematics from BikeRadar or BikeRumor to this thread and nobody would know. Doesn't every bike review literally present the same cliches about climbing like a goat and descending like a beast? It's just nonsense trying to make decisions based on these reviews. The amount of travel, stability of the pedaling platform, and progression of the suspension curve has become so normalized across the XC realm that it's nearly useless trying to pick out practical differences. Here's some real data from Hongfu (re-plotted for clarity) on this frame's kinematics:

    21lb FS 29er build (Pro-Mance M9007)-kinematics-1.jpg
    21lb FS 29er build (Pro-Mance M9007)-kinematics-2.jpg
    21lb FS 29er build (Pro-Mance M9007)-kinematics-3.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by jever98 View Post
    what's the experience with the linkages and pivots - do the good catalogue frames keep up with Canyon, Scott, etc., in terms of longevity and tolerances?
    This frame comes with a carbon linkage and aluminum alloy bolts. Bearings are standard sizes and easy to replace if needed, but they are steel, sealed cartridge bearings just like everybody else. Tolerances of any carbon frame are going to be as precise as the CNC machine that carved out the clamshell mold, and that's standard across the industry. In terms of longevity, you're looking at the same quality of carbon layup as big brands, same material, same designers, same workers in the manufacturing line, there really isn't a difference.

  22. #122
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    I was wondering if someone could help me understand what frame size to get the M7007-II in? My current frame is a 2013 Giant Trance Medium, which the Giant site says is an 18 I think? I wonder if the 17.5 would work for me? I am 5'10". Thanks! Hot ! XC suspension frame (M7007-II, 36T)

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by geenslicker View Post
    I was wondering if someone could help me understand what frame size to get the M7007-II in? My current frame is a 2013 Giant Trance Medium, which the Giant site says is an 18 I think? I wonder if the 17.5 would work for me? I am 5'10". Thanks! Hot ! XC suspension frame (M7007-II, 36T)
    I think a 17.5" would work for you, but I'd personally get a 19". That way you can go with a shorter stem for quicker handling and won't need so much seatpost. Sent you a PM, check your inbox.

  24. #124
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    I'm the same height as you geenslicker and I got a 19. I was professionally fit and I'm running a 90mm stem. The bike fits perfectly. I love this frame.

  25. #125
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    Sissypants - I just ordered an FM-258 SL to build up a XC race bike for my son for the upcoming season. You're posts have been very helpful with the decision making process.

    Do these frames use a standard or trunnion mount shock?

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gone4aride View Post
    Sissypants - I just ordered an FM-258 SL to build up a XC race bike for my son for the upcoming season. You're posts have been very helpful with the decision making process.

    Do these frames use a standard or trunnion mount shock?
    Standard non-trunnion 165*38mm shock with two sets of 22.4mm (22.0 or 22.2 works too) x 12mm shock mounting kits.

    Only a few frames use trunnion shocks and they expressly indicate in the specifications.

  27. #127
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    Hi Sissypants, you seem to be an FM-258 expert I have easy questions that have mostly already been answered above but I wanted to check.

    1) Sizing- the geometry is close to Spark RC and I should get large according to the Scott calculator, albeit at the lower end.

    Currently I am riding a 19" Chinese Carbon HT with 615mm effective TT, 80mm stem (7 deg down) and flat bars, which feels a good fit. My old bike was a 17.5" 2007 Mount Vision (~59cm ETT) with 100mm stem but as I've improved flexibility that was feeling slightly cramped.

    I think either the 17.5" or 19" FM258 could fit me ok but the 17.5" would need an unfashionably long stem. On the other hand I dislike bikes that feel too big.

    Best bet for FM258 is 19", right?

    2) I have a standard tune/fit 2015 Fox Boost CTD shock. This would fit and wouldn't need retuning, right?

    3) I have M9000 XTR cranks. The narrower stance won't be a problem, right? (I would go for the 142mm backend as 2.3" is OK for me).

    Thanks

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptd006 View Post
    Hi Sissypants, you seem to be an FM-258 expert I have easy questions that have mostly already been answered above but I wanted to check.

    1) Sizing- the geometry is close to Spark RC and I should get large according to the Scott calculator, albeit at the lower end.

    Currently I am riding a 19" Chinese Carbon HT with 615mm effective TT, 80mm stem (7 deg down) and flat bars, which feels a good fit. My old bike was a 17.5" 2007 Mount Vision (~59cm ETT) with 100mm stem but as I've improved flexibility that was feeling slightly cramped.

    I think either the 17.5" or 19" FM258 could fit me ok but the 17.5" would need an unfashionably long stem. On the other hand I dislike bikes that feel too big.

    Best bet for FM258 is 19", right?

    2) I have a standard tune/fit 2015 Fox Boost CTD shock. This would fit and wouldn't need retuning, right?

    3) I have M9000 XTR cranks. The narrower stance won't be a problem, right?

    Thanks
    1) Get a large 19" FM258, you won't regret it. You can go with a shorter stem and won't need as much seatpost.

    2) The shock needs to be 165x38mm. I'm not sure exactly what the dimensions are on your shock, but if it's not 165x38 it won't fit and you will need a new shock.

    3) XTR cranks should work, but you may need a new bottom bracket.

  29. #129
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    Great, thanks! (Yes it's a 165x38mm, sorry should have said that)

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptd006 View Post
    Great, thanks! (Yes it's a 165x38mm, sorry should have said that)
    Ok great, well then it should work! You'll just want to make sure that your spacer kit adapts to 22.4mm width and to an 8mm bolt. It's pretty standard, so I wouldn't be surprised if you have those kits on your current bike already. You'll need two of those kits.

  31. #131
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    Cool. I just measured and my current one is definitely wider so would need new mount kit but that's not a big deal. Thanks.

  32. #132
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    What happens if you order the Pro-mance 7007 II with 190x45 shock specs?

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdang307 View Post
    What happens if you order the Pro-mance 7007 II with 190x45 shock specs?
    You can't? The frame hasn't been designed around those specs.

    Unless you want to pay $3500+ to open a new front triangle for the bike in your favorite size...

  34. #134
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    I built a m7007II with 165x38. There is an option to order it with 190x45. I am not sure what is changed but it would be easy to alter the frames shock mount. The shock linkage would also have to be altered to support the longer shock travel. I would send an email to steven (steven.lan@pro-mance.com). He is very responsive.

  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcriffraff View Post
    I built a m7007II with 165x38. There is an option to order it with 190x45. I am not sure what is changed but it would be easy to alter the frames shock mount. The shock linkage would also have to be altered to support the longer shock travel. I would send an email to steven (steven.lan@pro-mance.com). He is very responsive.
    Well then, I'm corrected! I was not aware. It doesn't seem "easy" or cheap to me, but this could be a performance advantage if it's been done well.

  36. #136
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    Can somebody who recently bought the M7007-II verify the shock hardware width? Schematics show 22.4mm and I've been recommended 21.8mm Fox kit. Don't have access to calipers right now.

    I'm having trouble finding hardware as most of our shops are closed for the winter and US shops can't ship Fox products outside of the country. Have Manitou Mcleod shock, but it looks like it should be compatible with the Fox kit.

    My frame needed a 1.5mm pitch axle and I had already ordered 1.0mm pitch (which the slightly older frames had) so I have a lightweight J&L axle that I would sell cheap (too expensive to send back to the seller) if anybody needs one.

  37. #137
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    Pro-mance right on their site lists 190x45 as an option. Just wondering what the travel would be.

  38. #138
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    190x44 but maybe that one mm travel doesn't matter?

    Skickat frŚn min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

  39. #139
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    I used 22.20mm with 8mm for the fox hardware on my M7007II frame. I purchased through probikesupply.com. Thanks for the update on the rear axle . I will remove the link to the J&L from my build blog.
    Also thanks for the correction on the shock travel.

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