2006 White Brothers technology revealed- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    2006 White Brothers technology revealed

    I do not work for WB, but I live nearby and ride several of their forks. I stopped by to chat a few days ago and heard that they had filed their patent paperwork, which meant that they could stop being so tight-lipped about what they'd been working on.

    It also meant that after a year of riding on, loving, and wanting to spout off about how amazing this damper is, not only could I finally spill the beans but I finally knew what it was that I'd been riding on.

    When I asked for an explanation of how it worked, I understood it but then I found that I couldn't explain it myself without getting tangled up in words. So I copied this blurb from an email correspondence with one of the powers-that-be at WB.

    The new White Brothers damper (initially available for XC application) combines the benefits of a true open bath damping system with an intelligent magnetic valve (patent pending) that prevents bobbing on hills and during sprints but allows the fork to be fully active when it hits bumps.

    Open bath damping relies on a relatively large volume of oil, making it immune to unwanted changes in damping response due to temperature/volume effects (e.g., 'fade' during long technical descents). It is equally insensitive to loss of small quantities of oil and provides automatic, continuous bushing lubrication in the damper leg. There is less background stiction in an open bath damper because it does not require as many seals as cartridge or twin piston dampers. The revolutionary new White Brothers damper is one of the few true open bath dampers with both compression and rebound adjustments on the same fork leg.

    The heart of the damper is a magnetically-actuated compression valve (patent pending). When the fork hits a bump, vertical acceleration 'shock force' produces a sudden 'spike' in damper pressure. However, this spike or peak in pressure fades quickly--long before the bicycle wheel has finished traveling over the bump. Unlike typical sprung valves, the White Brothers magnetic valve 'senses' the pressure spike and then holds the damper compression circuit open until the bump is finished. This prevents any harshness during the bump. This is the clear advantage of the White Brothers magnetic valve over other advanced bicycle damping systems, the fact that the magnetic valve, once it is activated by the pressure spike, stays open during the entire bump and closes simultaneously with the rebound flow of the oil. This ensures that the White Brothers fork will be fully active during very small and very large bumps, and that the valve will close simultaneously with the end of the bump. Since the magnetic valve works off of the pressure spike and the flow of the oil to be activated and to close, the White Brothers magnetic valve cannot be tricked by different riding situations, thereby providing exactly the performance you want, when you want it. Because the pressure spike does not occur when the rider stands up to climb or sprint, the valve lets very little oil through the compression circuit, eliminating unwanted 'bobbing'.

    The magnitude of the pressure spike that accompanies a bump varies with the weight distribution on the bike (e.g., the weight of the rider and gear), so the White Brothers damper has an indexed knob at the crown to adjust the compression response to suit the individual rider.


    I'm guessing that there will be several of these available to be demo'ed at the on-dirt in Vegas in a few weeks. I'm also guessing that they will be available for purchase by the end of this year. I know that they will be retrofittable to all current BW forks--the ones that I'm riding were retro'd into my existing forks.

    So there you have it. I can't answer tech questions about it, but I'd be happy to chime in about how it responds on the trail, going up, going down, durability, etc...

    And I can't guarantee it, but maybe if people ask tech questions here one of the engineers from WB will be able to respond.

    MC
    Last edited by mikesee; 09-01-2005 at 09:51 PM.

  2. #2
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    Your experience?

    OK, I'll bite. How does it ride compared to the current system, stiction, squeeks etc. No bobbing, no bs? Will it be the mac daddy of all 29" forks available?
    A bike by any other name is still a bike.

  3. #3
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    Who cares?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigwheel
    OK, I'll bite. How does it ride compared to the current system, stiction, squeeks etc. No bobbing, no bs? Will it be the mac daddy of all 29" forks available?
    Who cares? I want one anyway!
    I dreamed I ate a 10 lb marshmallow. When I awoke, my pillow was gone.

  4. #4
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    What has the Open bath design done to weight?

    Is this damper technology alot heavier, or only a little bit. What has it done to the price? Is there adjustable travel? Previous White Brothers efforts are berated for having too much stiction. I take it that this has been eliminated? Does this surpass the Reba?
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Is this damper technology alot heavier, or only a little bit. What has it done to the price? Is there adjustable travel? Previous White Brothers efforts are berated for having too much stiction. I take it that this has been eliminated? Does this surpass the Reba?

    ...what Appendage says...

  6. #6
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    Cool, real open bath...

    The "pull your forks every couple of weeks to smear Slick Honey on the sliding bits" routine of the old WB forks really turned me off. I have wanted to support WB as they have supported the 29er community for so long.

    The open bath system is one big reason why Marz forks are so smoooth and reliable. Their loss that they offer no 32mm tubed forks for 29er's.

    Now all we need is a bigger WB arch to clear the big wave of 2.3-2.5 fatty 29er tires that are going to become available any time now. Err, right! But it never hurts to be ready.

    Pricing and availability ASAP please Jason!

    29erchico

  7. #7
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    Retro-fit

    I've already asked about retro-fit availability. Here's what they had to say:

    "We will have a magnetically-actuated compression system or "threshold system." Not necessarily a "platform." The new damper will not be available until Oct."

  8. #8
    Schipperkes are cool.
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    I was able to ride Curiak's Moots Single Speed, with said fork, from the shop, over the stairs and it was like no other fork I have rode on. Where the FOX inertia valve fork feels like your traditional sussy unit 3/4 full of water & muck; locking up when you don't want it to, etc.

    The WB fork was very smooth, almost unnatural for a WB. Push the bars down hard, it stays firm. Hit a bump and the fork moved with ease.

    Scoty
    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Better suited to non-aggressive 125# gals named Russell.
    I ride so slow, your Garmin will shut off.

  9. #9
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    magnetic vs spring

    the magnetic force decreases with the distance, whereas a spring force will increase with the distance.

    This means that WB valve is hard to open at the beginning, and then tend to stay away (weak force) once it is open.
    I think that this is smarter than the spring design (being a real metallic spring or compressed air) where the valve is easy to open at the beginning and then tend to come back locking with force.

    I still think a good design inertia valve (where the oil flow keep the gate open) is still interesting
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  10. #10
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    Retro fit

    What will the cost difference between buying new and retro-fitting? I'm guessing if can be done to either existing air or coil forks?

    Steve

  11. #11
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    An open bath WB is liable to cut Padre’s post count in half, He wont be able to talk about stiction whores any more.

    Will this system be available on the BW1.3?

    Ill definitely send my BW.8 in as soon as the retrofit is available. This system sounds very promising.
    Last edited by Endomaniac; 09-02-2005 at 06:00 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endomaniac
    An open bath WB is liable to cut Padre’s post count in half, He be able to talk about stiction whores any more.

    Will this system be available on the BW1.3?

    Ill definitely send my BW.8 in as soon as the retrofit is available. This system sounds very promising.
    I was thinking I would wait for the Padre review....... seriously! No disrespect to anyone but its good to hear some opinions from all angles.
    blah blah blah

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endomaniac
    Will this system be available on the BW1.3?
    I was wondering the same thing, got this in an email from Jason:

    "As for the BW 1.3 it will not see any major changes for
    next year. The shorter travel forks will begin to use the new
    "smart" damping system, but it will be a little while before that
    technology is perfected for the longer travel forks.

    The current BW 1.3 uses a much different style of damper that
    allows for quite a bit of adjustment both compression and rebound.
    The 1.3 damper is much more sophisticated than what we use in
    the 1.0 and .8"

  14. #14
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    have to agree that using magnetic forces to close the valve is a smart idea.
    Will be interesting to see how the other other fork manufacturers eract to this.

  15. #15
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    WB is not on their radar

    Rockshox, Manitou, and the other biggies don't notice or care what WB does, I'm guessing. They're too busy coming out with some new castings so that their lowers are a slightly different shape, arguing about what color to make their forks, and renaming their products (the new Trudy replaces last years Hike line, at a higher pricepoint, with the same features!)

    People talk trash about the performance of the WB forks, but I've probably sold 20 or 30 of those suckers this year, with nary a complaint from ANYONE. I'm sure, just like any forks, there are a few lemons out there. But they're darn good at taking care of problems when they arise, no?

    People have also bashed on the WB stuff for not looking cool or new-agey enough. Fah. Give me good customer service and easily interchangeable parts any day. Let's hope the new WB damper puts them back on the sussy fork map - but let's hope they keep their small-company feel when they hit the big time.

    -Walt


    Quote Originally Posted by Brad
    have to agree that using magnetic forces to close the valve is a smart idea.
    Will be interesting to see how the other other fork manufacturers eract to this.

  16. #16
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    and the stiction? Mike? Banks?

  17. #17
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    Shout out to WB

    Gotta give White Bros. their props... About two weeks ago I had a horrific crash..ok, maybe I'm embelishing a bit, and lost the dust cap to the air side of my .8.
    Dropped them an e-mail about getting one, got two in the mail no charge in about 3 days!
    I've never gotten service like that from anyone in this industry.

    Funny story too... Years ago when there used to be a show in Philly (talking old school here) my shop asked me to go down since I had to stay home while they went to Vegas.
    Well I took the train in and wore a sweat shirt and White Brothers t-shirt with the red/white/blue flag motif.
    Walking from the station to the show I took my sweatshirt of and started walking. Couldn't figure out why I was getting alot of "stares", particullarly from the african-american crowd. Needless to say a "White Bros." t-shirt in the inner city isn't always a good idea.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by toddre
    Gotta give White Bros. their props... About two weeks ago I had a horrific crash..ok, maybe I'm embelishing a bit, and lost the dust cap to the air side of my .8.
    Dropped them an e-mail about getting one, got two in the mail no charge in about 3 days!
    I've never gotten service like that from anyone in this industry.
    Similar story here...lost a cap, got two in the mail. I also snapped the head off the rebound adjustment bolt while rebuilding the fork. Called 'em up and got the bolt and adjuster when I only needed the bolt. Great service.

  19. #19
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    brewdog avatar

    Did you pick that avatar up just because of the T-shirt story? If not, great coincidence...

  20. #20
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    I "borrowed" it from someone on some other board. Are you talking about the "White Brothers" t-shirt story? I've had this one for a while...

  21. #21
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    "White Power" was a non PC slogan they used in the past

    Quote Originally Posted by toddre
    Gotta give White Bros. their props... About two weeks ago I had a horrific crash..ok, maybe I'm embelishing a bit, and lost the dust cap to the air side of my .8.
    Dropped them an e-mail about getting one, got two in the mail no charge in about 3 days!
    I've never gotten service like that from anyone in this industry.

    Funny story too... Years ago when there used to be a show in Philly (talking old school here) my shop asked me to go down since I had to stay home while they went to Vegas.
    Well I took the train in and wore a sweat shirt and White Brothers t-shirt with the red/white/blue flag motif.
    Walking from the station to the show I took my sweatshirt of and started walking. Couldn't figure out why I was getting alot of "stares", particullarly from the african-american crowd. Needless to say a "White Bros." t-shirt in the inner city isn't always a good idea.
    Being a African-American motorcyclist and a MTBer I vowed never to buy any of their wares. That being said, I doubt they lost very many sales. The new owners are a pleasure to deal with and I will most likely get a 06 thru-axle to compliment my DUC.

  22. #22

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    Sweet!

    Sounds really great, a damper system that actually works?? Can't wait to retro my two WB's.

    I'd like to second what Walt posted!! And would like to add -DURABILITY! Clean the stanchions, apply a little slick honey and off you go! Every now and then, pull 'em apart and clean and relube. Good as new. I have yet to own any other forks that have held up to a season of training and ultra-racing (Fox, Marz, Rock Shox etc). Kudos to White Brothers for new technology and top-notch customer service.
    Fred

  23. #23
    dirty hippy mountainbiker
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    why

    Quote Originally Posted by abscar
    Being a African-American motorcyclist and a MTBer I vowed never to buy any of their wares.
    Is there something we need to know about the management's pollitical views? I asumed they were some male siblings who's surname was White.

    -M
    Mike Henderson, Dirty Hippy Mountain Biker and part owner of Jet Lites.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy
    Is there something we need to know about the management's pollitical views? I asumed they were some male siblings who's surname was White.

    -M
    It's just the guy's name who started the business way back... nothing political.. nor did I mean to imply... sorry about the mix up

  25. #25
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    CX 1 retrofit?

    People have also bashed on the WB stuff for not looking cool or new-agey enough. Fah. Give me good customer service and easily interchangeable parts any day. Let's hope the new WB damper puts them back on the sussy fork map - but let's hope they keep their small-company feel when they hit the big time.

    -Walt[/QUOTE]
    I really like my CX 1 but I tend to like stiff short travel forks plus I like the looks.
    Jeff
    Last edited by jeff; 09-02-2005 at 02:25 PM. Reason: Miss post

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by abscar
    Being a African-American motorcyclist and a MTBer I vowed never to buy any of their wares. That being said, I doubt they lost very many sales. The new owners are a pleasure to deal with and I will most likely get a 06 thru-axle to compliment my DUC.
    I guess I'm a European-American.

  27. #27
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    CX-1 retrofit is no go. I asked before. It's different. Maybe just send yours to Angry Asian and see what he can do with it? Tell me about it afterwards :-)

  28. #28
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    Who knows what your ancestors dipped into.

  29. #29
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    Minimal that I felt. Very impressed.
    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Better suited to non-aggressive 125# gals named Russell.
    I ride so slow, your Garmin will shut off.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigwheel
    OK, I'll bite. How does it ride compared to the current system, stiction, squeeks etc. No bobbing, no bs? Will it be the mac daddy of all 29" forks available?
    The ride is adjustable. Racy, plush, somewhere between--dial it in on the fly. On my single-speed I have it set up race-rigid so that there is zero bob when I stand and climb. But at the slightest ripple the valve opens seamlessly and I've got plush suspension. When the trail smoothes out it goes (just as seamlessly) back to being a rigid bob-free ride.

    Stiction? Hah! Truly none to speak of. I like a fast fork (meaning that when it's moving I like fairly unimpeded compression and rebound damping) and this fork is fast. First fork in years that I've had to use some rebound damping on. No stiction.

    Durability? I've been riding two of these forks since this time last year. In the initial testing I stopped by WB HQ every few days to fiddle a bit or to have them do the fiddling for me. Since I got the forks dialed in (one on my race bike, one on my Leviathan) I haven't touched them. The race fork was ridden in the Trans-Iowa Race, Kokopelli Trail Race, Lumberjack 100, and last weekend at the Vapor Trail 125. Despite the mileage, grit, dust, into and out of bike boxes etc... I haven't touched the air pressure since before the Kokopelli Race back in May.

    The fork on my Leviathan has been ridden thousands of miles this summer by myself and, well, basically anyone that shows up and wants to ride it! I've had to replace the bb twice (damned ISIS) and the chain once, but I still have yet to do a thing to the fork.

    To a man, everyone that rides one of these two bikes comes back with two questions: How much? and When?

    The forks really are that good.

    I know that I'm getting ahead of myself here, but I can't wait for them to build one for my BW 1.3. They've been so busy dialing it in and perfecting it that they've been burning a lot of midnight oil, so I feel bad for asking. But I really can't wait. And they keep telling me that it's gonna happen for sure, it's just not first priority.

    I understand, but it doesn't make me want it any less.

    I don't know what the price will be--perhaps they'll find the time to chime in. As far as weight I don't know exactly what the production units will come in at. I know that my two forks gained about an ounce each when they were converted to the new damper.

    MC
    Last edited by mikesee; 09-02-2005 at 10:58 PM.

  31. #31
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    An ounce over the 2004 damper? I could live with that, but have a 2003 fork. Sounds like I want these as bad as you do!
    Jason @ WB is probably at Eurobike righ now, unfortunately I didn't catch him there. Looking forward to hear more on this!

  32. #32
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    "White Power" and White Bros. are not connected

    Quote Originally Posted by abscar
    Being a African-American motorcyclist and a MTBer I vowed never to buy any of their wares. That being said, I doubt they lost very many sales. The new owners are a pleasure to deal with and I will most likely get a 06 thru-axle to compliment my DUC.
    Being a Caucasian-American, and former dirt biker, I feel the need to enlighten you about "White Power". "White Power" was the name of a company out of Holland that built high performance dirt bike forks for companys like ATK and KTM motorcycles in the 80's & 90's (I owned an ATK 406 with White Power forks on it). The White Brothers, Dan & Tom started out selling dirt bike parts out of their garage in California and became a large company. One of the brothers, Jason could say which one, broke off and formed White Brothers Cycling, after his son got into MTB racing. This business was later sold to Ekosport in Colorado though they retained the original name. So by choosing not to buy MTB parts from the original White Brothers you have "Demonized" an innocent company that I know would have supported black moto-crossers like Bubba Stewart. That's unfortunate.

  33. #33
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    Anyone have any prices yet?

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man
    Being a Caucasian-American, and former dirt biker, I feel the need to enlighten you about "White Power". "White Power" was the name of a company out of Holland that built high performance dirt bike forks for companys like ATK and KTM motorcycles in the 80's & 90's (I owned an ATK 406 with White Power forks on it). The White Brothers, Dan & Tom started out selling dirt bike parts out of their garage in California and became a large company. One of the brothers, Jason could say which one, broke off and formed White Brothers Cycling, after his son got into MTB racing. This business was later sold to Ekosport in Colorado though they retained the original name. So by choosing not to buy MTB parts from the original White Brothers you have "Demonized" an innocent company that I know would have supported black moto-crossers like Bubba Stewart. That's unfortunate.
    This is correct. Two totally different companies. My friend had two KTM motorcycles made in Austria. One has White Power forks, the other has Marzocchi. I don't think there is anything racially motivated there.

  35. #35
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    Another similar story. Stripped out the little phillips head screw on the lock-out. Received two in the mail free of charge, within days. While waiting, Idremeled the phillips head to a flat heat slot and went on with life.

  36. #36
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    Thanks MC

    Looks like this fork has been field tested quite well, thank you! I will be saving my pennies now. This is the first suspension fork I've been interested in for years. Thanks for the review, Mike!
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  37. #37
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    I stand corrected

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man
    Being a Caucasian-American, and former dirt biker, I feel the need to enlighten you about "White Power". "White Power" was the name of a company out of Holland that built high performance dirt bike forks for companys like ATK and KTM motorcycles in the 80's & 90's (I owned an ATK 406 with White Power forks on it). The White Brothers, Dan & Tom started out selling dirt bike parts out of their garage in California and became a large company. One of the brothers, Jason could say which one, broke off and formed White Brothers Cycling, after his son got into MTB racing. This business was later sold to Ekosport in Colorado though they retained the original name. So by choosing not to buy MTB parts from the original White Brothers you have "Demonized" an innocent company that I know would have supported black moto-crossers like Bubba Stewart. That's unfortunate.
    If your information is correct and I have no reason to doubt you, then my sincerest apologies for mislabeling White Brothers Racing. Makes it easier for me to do business with them. Still doesn't change my feelings towards White Power even if they marketed their products in "innocence". Lost my sense of humor back then after experiencing dozens of racial "incidents". Things are better now and it is unfortunate that I have essentially done what others have done to me. Sorry.

  38. #38
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    What I understood was that White Power was SO not interested in any racial affairs, that when they say white, they don't mean non-black. It might as well have been a bunch of white guys coming up with the name Black Power. Flip of a coin, or related to something else with that color.
    If I'm not mistaken, WP had some roots in Holland. Over here in Holland you can't make a racist statement and get away with it. Instant riot.

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    From White Brothers

    Although I review the postings on mtbr quite a bit, I have never posted before. My name is Tim Fry and I am the owner of Eko Sport (White Brothers, MRP, Kreitler etc.). Which means I clean the bathrooms among other things.

    I did want to post a few comments and hopefully answer some of your questions. First, let me say how excited I am about the interest in our new technology. I know that the proof is in the pudding, but internally we feel a great deal of accomplishment in watching the magnetic valve technology go from concept to reality. We are a small company (12 employees) and everyone has been involved over the last year in bringing this to where it is today. We also appreciate the local riders who have worked with us, given us feedback and put up with us while we swapped things in and out of their bikes in order to get this project done.

    First, let me comment on the history of White Brothers. Yes, the company was started by two (twin) brothers Dan and Tom White. White Brothers started in 1972 as a distributor of motorcycle parts - and that part of the company continues today. Both Dan and Tom raced motorcycles professionally. Over the years, Dan and Tom got involved in other types of racing, including water sports, atv and mountain biking. And each time they got into something new, a small division of the company started to support the habit. That is what happened in the mid 1990's. Dan White began racing mountain bikes (you can still find him occasionally at local races) and started seeing a need for upgrades for the early forks. This started White Brothers hardbody damper cartidges and spring upgrades. That evolved into the first White Brothers fork in 1997. Our company bought a small company in 2000 called Bicycle Parts Pacific. They were producing the Englund air cartridges. So Eko Sport took over that product and supplied the air cartridges to White Brothers. In 2001, I was approached by Tom White (Dan had sold out to Tom and was no longer with White Brothers) about their interest to find a good home for the bicycle division (White Brothers was going through changes and wanted to get back to their core - motorcycles). So in the Fall of 2001 we purchased the bicycle division. By the way, White Power is a company that makes motorcycle suspension out of Holland. No connection between White Brothers and White Power. And as far as I know, the name White Power was just a bad choice of a name by a foreign company who wanted to sell products into the U.S. - nothing more nothing less.

    Now back to the technology - which after having a large focus group last week with a group of local riders (over a few beers) is now being called IMV (Intelligent Magnetic Valve). Feel free to give me feedback on the name.

    Availability - just as fast as our machine shop can spit out the parts - as some of you may know, we do machine about 90% of our own parts in house. And we are moving forward with production runs of the parts. To be safe, I would say towards the end of October we should be through a small initial run of all of the parts and will be able to build 200-300 forks. Right now, we have the technology perfected for up to 100mm of travel. We are working on longer travel and fully plan to develop it for forks like the BW 1.3 and beyond.

    Weight - it is an open bath system and you do get a little more weight. I just weighed a current sample that we have in the shop (it was a 100mm 26" version) and it came in at about 3.65 pounds with a full length steerer and a race on it. We spec the XC 1.0 at 3.3 pounds with a cut steerer. We are working on cutting a little more weight out of the top adjustment assembly. So we will see where it comes in - but you should expect a few ounces for far superior performance. Still very competative on weight and superior on performance (marketing plug).

    Cost - Still waiting on final costing on some of the parts. As we get into production, the guys in the machine shop are improving time on the parts and bringing down our costs. But from what I am seeing so far, the price should be in line with where we currently are - might see a slight (5%) increase.

    Retrofit - We will be able to upgrade any of the BW .8 / BW 1.0 to the new technology. It will involve replacing all of the internals (and the cap) on the damper side.

    Again, we are very excited to go to interbike this year with this new technology for the dirt demo and to display. We were hopeful that everything would be put to bed a couple of months ago, but you cannot rush development. We were also hoping to unveil the new White Brothers rear shock with IMV damping - but that project is not ready for release.

    Finally, thanks to those who commented on our customer service. We hope that we can exceed your expectations. And thanks to Walt for the plug - we appreciate his support and the support of other cutting edge frame builders. We try to do everything right 100% of the time, but if we don't then we try to make it right. We ride our own products, and we expect the most from them, and want you to experience the best with them.

    I can be reached at [email protected] if you have any comments or questions.

  40. #40
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    My question on a possible rear shock is answered....
    Nice work !
    Frenchspeaking 29"ers community site http://VingtNeuf.org

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    Tim Thank you!

    It is great to hear you are continuing to evolve 29er forks! Thank you. I am very interested, being a WB.8 owner. BTW so far my experience with customer serivce has been very good.

    Bob

  42. #42
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    Open bath: yes, please. Thank you. Less maintenance, less stiction, and the ability to tune progressiveness by changing oil volume. The magnetic "platform" valve is also a smart idea.

    Do we get a coil-sprung version?

    I want a coil BW1.5 thru-axle for Christmas. And a pony.

  43. #43
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    Magnet longevity?

    Don't magnets lose their magnetism over time? I know I certainly have. Wouldn't this affect the operation of the valve? I know my valves don't work like they used to.
    I dreamed I ate a 10 lb marshmallow. When I awoke, my pillow was gone.

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    Magnetism

    Quote Originally Posted by Appendage
    Don't magnets lose their magnetism over time? I know I certainly have. Wouldn't this affect the operation of the valve? I know my valves don't work like they used to.

    The same question was raised very early on in our development of the Intelligent Magnetic Valve (IMV). One of our engineers did a great deal of research on magnets and we worked with several large magnet manufacturers to get the information we needed to proceed. Here is what we found:

    High quality rare earth magnets (which is what we are using in the IMV) have a very slow field decay rate, on the order of 1% in 100 years depending on various conditions.
    However, the parts should not be heated beyond 175 deg F or the field may be damaged. Since the parts are protected inside the fork leg and surrounded by oil that dissipates heat, even direct sunlight in Phoenix, Arizona in July would not be enough to do it.
    Nevertheless, a situation that exposes the fork to unusual, extreme heat is to be avoided. If the worst happens, a new damper piston will of course fix the problem.

    We have been running the IMV forks in real life situations, riding in desert conditions and leaving it in a car etc. and we have not seen any changes in performance.

    I hope that this is helpful.

  45. #45
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    Yes, very helpful

    Quote Originally Posted by EkoSport1
    I hope that this is helpful.
    Yes, that was very helpful. Can you convince my wife that her devoted husband simply MUST have a WB fork? Now THAT would be helpful!
    I dreamed I ate a 10 lb marshmallow. When I awoke, my pillow was gone.

  46. #46
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    Thanks for backing up/clairifing my post

    Quote Originally Posted by EkoSport1
    Although I review the postings on mtbr quite a bit, I have never posted before. My name is Tim Fry and I am the owner of Eko Sport (White Brothers, MRP, Kreitler etc.). Which means I clean the bathrooms among other things.

    I did want to post a few comments and hopefully answer some of your questions. First, let me say how excited I am about the interest in our new technology. I know that the proof is in the pudding, but internally we feel a great deal of accomplishment in watching the magnetic valve technology go from concept to reality. We are a small company (12 employees) and everyone has been involved over the last year in bringing this to where it is today. We also appreciate the local riders who have worked with us, given us feedback and put up with us while we swapped things in and out of their bikes in order to get this project done.

    First, let me comment on the history of White Brothers. Yes, the company was started by two (twin) brothers Dan and Tom White. White Brothers started in 1972 as a distributor of motorcycle parts - and that part of the company continues today. Both Dan and Tom raced motorcycles professionally. Over the years, Dan and Tom got involved in other types of racing, including water sports, atv and mountain biking. And each time they got into something new, a small division of the company started to support the habit. That is what happened in the mid 1990's. Dan White began racing mountain bikes (you can still find him occasionally at local races) and started seeing a need for upgrades for the early forks. This started White Brothers hardbody damper cartidges and spring upgrades. That evolved into the first White Brothers fork in 1997. Our company bought a small company in 2000 called Bicycle Parts Pacific. They were producing the Englund air cartridges. So Eko Sport took over that product and supplied the air cartridges to White Brothers. In 2001, I was approached by Tom White (Dan had sold out to Tom and was no longer with White Brothers) about their interest to find a good home for the bicycle division (White Brothers was going through changes and wanted to get back to their core - motorcycles). So in the Fall of 2001 we purchased the bicycle division. By the way, White Power is a company that makes motorcycle suspension out of Holland. No connection between White Brothers and White Power. And as far as I know, the name White Power was just a bad choice of a name by a foreign company who wanted to sell products into the U.S. - nothing more nothing less.

    Now back to the technology - which after having a large focus group last week with a group of local riders (over a few beers) is now being called IMV (Intelligent Magnetic Valve). Feel free to give me feedback on the name.

    Availability - just as fast as our machine shop can spit out the parts - as some of you may know, we do machine about 90% of our own parts in house. And we are moving forward with production runs of the parts. To be safe, I would say towards the end of October we should be through a small initial run of all of the parts and will be able to build 200-300 forks. Right now, we have the technology perfected for up to 100mm of travel. We are working on longer travel and fully plan to develop it for forks like the BW 1.3 and beyond.

    Weight - it is an open bath system and you do get a little more weight. I just weighed a current sample that we have in the shop (it was a 100mm 26" version) and it came in at about 3.65 pounds with a full length steerer and a race on it. We spec the XC 1.0 at 3.3 pounds with a cut steerer. We are working on cutting a little more weight out of the top adjustment assembly. So we will see where it comes in - but you should expect a few ounces for far superior performance. Still very competative on weight and superior on performance (marketing plug).

    Cost - Still waiting on final costing on some of the parts. As we get into production, the guys in the machine shop are improving time on the parts and bringing down our costs. But from what I am seeing so far, the price should be in line with where we currently are - might see a slight (5%) increase.

    Retrofit - We will be able to upgrade any of the BW .8 / BW 1.0 to the new technology. It will involve replacing all of the internals (and the cap) on the damper side.

    Again, we are very excited to go to interbike this year with this new technology for the dirt demo and to display. We were hopeful that everything would be put to bed a couple of months ago, but you cannot rush development. We were also hoping to unveil the new White Brothers rear shock with IMV damping - but that project is not ready for release.

    Finally, thanks to those who commented on our customer service. We hope that we can exceed your expectations. And thanks to Walt for the plug - we appreciate his support and the support of other cutting edge frame builders. We try to do everything right 100% of the time, but if we don't then we try to make it right. We ride our own products, and we expect the most from them, and want you to experience the best with them.

    I can be reached at [email protected] if you have any comments or questions.
    Tim, thanks for backing up my short history of White Brothers that I posted. Being a new comer to 29er review (this was my first post) I realized that people may think "what does this guy know?". Well, quite a bit when it comes to dirt bikes. Having done business off and on for 25 years with White Brothers (Dirt bikes, ATV's and now MTB's, I have a BW 1.0 on my GF293) I couldn't sit back and let a misunderstanding about possible racial inequities against the company go unchallenged. I want to see the company be sucessful in its operations, particularly in the 29er suspension field, since you have been one if not "The" leader in this field. Misconceptions can and do cause loss of sales and White Brothers does not deserve that. Looking forward to getting the new BW1.3 on my custom Lenard Zinn all mountain FS 29er!

  47. #47
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    Once again I apologize

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man
    Tim, thanks for backing up my short history of White Brothers that I posted. Being a new comer to 29er review (this was my first post) I realized that people may think "what does this guy know?". Well, quite a bit when it comes to dirt bikes. Having done business off and on for 25 years with White Brothers (Dirt bikes, ATV's and now MTB's, I have a BW 1.0 on my GF293) I couldn't sit back and let a misunderstanding about possible racial inequities against the company go unchallenged. I want to see the company be sucessful in its operations, particularly in the 29er suspension field, since you have been one if not "The" leader in this field. Misconceptions can and do cause loss of sales and White Brothers does not deserve that. Looking forward to getting the new BW1.3 on my custom Lenard Zinn all mountain FS 29er!
    I still stand by my belief that the importance of symbolism is relative. Try burning a flag at the VFW. Wear a Black Power shirt in a redneck bar. Wear a White Power shirt at my family reunion or in view of the "brothers" in Philly. Then try telling them that the Dutch didn't mean to offend them and it was just a poor name choice, nothing more, nothing less. I'm sure White Power's name choice was called into question and they continued to market it in the US, once again sending the message that the feelings of blacks don't matter. Should that be an issue? Probaly not. However the opinions and feelings of White Americans often take president not only domestically, but internationally, and are enforced through legislative, police, and military action. I don't expect others to follow my beliefs but on the other hand don't expect me to follow beliefs such as the stars and bars represent southern heritage, nothing more, nothing less, and ignore the devastation that slavery caused and continues to cause. I'm tired of feeling like I'm the guilty one for being racially profiled, that I need to intellectualize why someone calls me a ******, and I shouldn't make waves if someone places a drawing of a black man being lynched on a break room bulletin board etc. I am guilty of mislabeling White Brothers which obviously is a fine organization.

  48. #48
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    I would like to suggest we put an end to all the political/sociological discussion on the White Bros. name..... my t-shirt story was just supposed to be a "ha-ha" story.... I never meant to drum up any bad will toward White Bros./Eko Sport.
    I say let's keep this a 29er debates.
    I personally don't want to see any racial undertones stirred up in here, there's plenty of that crap in the "real" world.
    I say we bash sliding drop outs, tubeless tire conversions, 69ers, and the "suppossed" Race Day 29er instead... LOL

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by toddre
    I would like to suggest we put an end to all the political/sociological discussion on the White Bros. name.
    This technology reminds me of my Edelbrock IAS Performance
    shocks on the truck. They supposedly can tell and adjust their
    damping depending on if the tire has hit an obstruction or is
    being pressured by body lean ... and while there is no direct
    relationship in terms of the underlying technology ... I do like my
    IAS Perfromance shocks a LOT

    -r

  50. #50

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    To me, Intelligent Magnetic Valve sounds like a bit of a mockery of 'brain' (from Spec. Epic etc). Don't know if that's necessarily bad, just an observation.

  51. #51
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    Hypocrite

    Quote Originally Posted by abscar
    Who knows what your ancestors dipped into.
    What the FOCK are you talking about PC for?????

    Your bloody signature is a horrific thing to say - and shows a remarkable lack of thought for people who have to live with that particular tragedy.

    Suicide is painless? How do you know? Have you tried it? I can't send enough
    bad words your way right now.

    OH WAIT - I GET IT! Your issues are the only ones that are important. I once heard a neat saying - "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Are you familiar with it?

    Sorry to hijack.

    Back to topic - new fork sounds awesome. I want one.
    Last edited by TheSingleGuy; 09-09-2005 at 05:14 AM.
    Ride.

  52. #52
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    Tim,

    Thanks for the history lesson.

    I was sent a preview of the fork news by a friend and was excited about it right away. He asked me to put my idea cap on about a name as he knew that I had a certain amount of experience in that field having helped Wes Williams here with some ideas.

    I hate to say it but the IMV moniker sounds lame to me. Too industrial and doesn't have a ring of meaning to it or the ability to make it so. The first thing that stood out to me in the email I got was Magnetically Activated Compression. Which can be reduced to MAC. As in MAC Daddy or BW MAC etc.. I am sure that the option was made available at the meeting via my friend but I just wanted to add my .02 here as you did ask for input on the name.

    Excited to try the new internals in my fork(s). And thanks for all the support you good folks there have given the 29" movement since day one. To those that don't know there was a Moots YBB 29"er shown at Interbike in 1999 with a WB CX-1 fork on it.

    Bob Poor
    CB, CO
    A bike by any other name is still a bike.

  53. #53
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    name

    Tim,
    I think the IMV name is forgettable and therefore not effective as a Marketing tool. It would not keep me from buying one (function over form for me), but puts it in the pool with all the other manufacturers with forgettable TLA's (three letter acronyms) to describe their products/features. I think Specialized did a good job with the BRAIN and Fox did too with the TerraLogic, both are intriguing product names that make you go to their website and see what it's all about. I do think you need to have something about the magnetics in the name as that seperates you from your competitors. Maybe something associated with magnets such as flux (Turner beat you to it) or gauss or polar or something, though that doesn't fit with your current naming scheme. But with a product this significant, maybe it's time to break out a new family name.

    I would like to thank you for coming on here to answer questions. I work in product development, so when you talk about availability in terms of your machine shops queue time and pricing in terms of getting cycle times down then I understand where you are at and I am more patient. Your answer to the question of magnetic field decay was very informed and shows you've done your homework to provide us with a reliable product (something else I understand and deal with myself).

    Also, thank you for supporting the 29er industry and hopefully that support will be beneficial to both you and the riding public.

    Joe

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigwheel
    The first thing that stood out to me in the email I got was Magnetically Activated Compression. Which can be reduced to MAC. As in MAC Daddy or BW MAC etc..

    Bob Poor
    CB, CO
    I like this....I want a MAC

    Good job Bob

    LP

  55. #55
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    mac is cool

    I have to echo that the IMV is a little uninspiring. I got a big kick out of BW when I finally got that it meant "big wheel". I think MAC fits the same spirit. I am sure there are other good ones to, but that would be my pick so far. I guess you'd have to keep the "Big' pretty well isolated from the "Mac" to keep McDonald's lawyers off your back, though.

    How about something using "Active" i.e. MAD- Magnetic Active Damping, etc.

  56. #56
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    How great is it to be able to totally change out the internals of a fork to upgrade it to the newest technology? Kind of like upgrading a computer, something you take for granted in that industry. Didn't think that option would be available when I bought a BW, and am definitely looking forward to making my fork work better than it already does. Nice.

    When I first read those comments about the IVM acronym, I thought an alternative could be "MagLev". Short for magnetic levitation, implies a characteristic of floating smoothly over terrain. As others have written, I'm partial to names that are not strictly an acronym; rather a shortening of meaningful words so as to make them more intriguing, easier to pronounce, perhaps more marketable. Leveraging Heavyg and Bigwheel's suggestions, perhaps "MacFlow" or "MadFlow". That kind of thing. But IVM definitely works too, its all about the product anyways, right?

    Great work EkoSport, thanks.

  57. #57
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    beyond thunderdome

    Mad Macs?

  58. #58
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    My step-brother committed suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSingleGuy
    What the FOCK are you talking about PC for?????

    Your bloody signature is a horrific thing to say - and shows a remarkable lack of thought for people who have to live with that particular tragedy.

    Suicide is painless? How do you know? Have you tried it? I can't send enough
    bad words your way right now.

    OH WAIT - I GET IT! Your issues are the only ones that are important. I once heard a neat saying - "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Are you familiar with it?

    Sorry to hijack.

    Back to topic - new fork sounds awesome. I want one.
    The opinion you just expressed is important to you. Good. You have a right to it. I work in the health field, and have years of experience handling and treating individuals who are suicide risks. The line is from a song from the movie MASH and my interpretation of it is of irony. But we both have things in common. We both assumed that a individual or organization is of a belief system that is false. I also await the arrival of the WB platform fork.

  59. #59
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    MAC it is! I'm buying one unless it's called MAC! :-)

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    Apple Computer might have an opinion on usage of the word "MAC"

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by abscar
    I also await the arrival of the WB platform fork.
    Check your PMs please.
    Ride.

  62. #62
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    A couple things.....

    - Tim. Are there any plans for an off-set Crown or Dropouts???

    - Abscar. I *think* the company from Holland has changed their name/product to the initials "WP" to probably be a little more P.C., not that I think they have anything against another race.
    Also, sorry to hear of your loss of a family member. Peace.

  63. #63
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    How 'bout MagnetoDrive?

    MagnetoDrive?

    I think I stole that from a movie or something...

    goin for a ride now.
    Ride.

  64. #64
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    More info

    Just stopped by WB and got a little more info on the new technology.

    *Price for a BW 1.0 with IMV will be $675US.
    *New fork availability is projected for late October '05.
    *Retrofits to your existing BW .8 and BW 1.0 will be able to be done at that time as well, and the price for that procedure will be announced at Interbike next week.
    *I weighed my fork (with an 8" steerer and a king crown race) at 1755g.

    I think it's awesome that it's happening that fast, and even better that the price increase was negligible.

    Pic below of the production fork on my Leviathan.

    Cheers,

    MC
    Attached Images Attached Images

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee
    Just stopped by WB and got a little more info on the new technology.

    *Price for a BW 1.0 with IMV will be $675US.
    *New fork availability is projected for late October '05.
    That's awsome, Mike. I may finally have to replace my CX-1.

    I've gotta add that I've been riding my new White Brothers DT 1.2 120mm fork for about two weeks now on my <a href="http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=130055">new 26" bike</a>, and the damping system (the same as the one found on the big travel 29"er fork) is just lovely. I'm enthusiastically anticipating demoing this new valving technology.

    And for any of you bigger guys, if you haven't tried it yet, the 20mm TA is wonderful thing. So incredibly stiff & precise that I'm not going back. All of my future forks -- 29" and 26", short and long travel -- are going to have through axles. I am assuming this will be an option on any White Bros. purchase.
    speedub.nate
    MTBR Hiatus UFN

  66. #66
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    true that....

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    What I understood was that White Power was SO not interested in any racial affairs, that when they say white, they don't mean non-black. It might as well have been a bunch of white guys coming up with the name Black Power. Flip of a coin, or related to something else with that color.
    If I'm not mistaken, WP had some roots in Holland. Over here in Holland you can't make a racist statement and get away with it. Instant riot.
    my best freind has 2 brothers that were born and raised in Holland. they come to visit every couple of years but after a few weeks cant take the racism and segregation that is common place in the good ol' U.S of A. they are bi-racial and see themselves and everyone else as human beings first and foremost. their mom, who is white, came over one year and was even more put off by the racism and segregation than her sons were.
    we think were so much more "equal" here but watching those guys and their mom slowly sink into a depressed state from whats "normal" to us taught me a lot. we struggled to keep finding things to do where people of all races socialized freely. this was what they were used to, yet we had to work to find it consistantly, in NYC no less!. they didnt want to be around all white or all black people. WE HAVE A LOT TO LEARN.
    EAST COAST
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  67. #67
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    It's too bad white men can't jump and most colored people don't seem to gie much for bikes. The world would be a better place if every country's racial minority would ride bikes. It's a people's sport anyway, right? Almost anyone can afford a bike, and nowadays a ridig bike can win races again, thanks to 29". Maybe in a few years...

  68. #68
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    both are changing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    It's too bad white men can't jump and most colored people don't seem to gie much for bikes. The world would be a better place if every country's racial minority would ride bikes. It's a people's sport anyway, right? Almost anyone can afford a bike, and nowadays a ridig bike can win races again, thanks to 29". Maybe in a few years...
    today you have white guys dunking on people (i know, im a b-ball referee) and in NY lots of minorities ride bikes, on and off road. i have to say though in my travels around the country im usually the only brotha on the trails . many people find it odd that i mtbk but i love it and dont care. im also the type of guy thats always comfortable no matter where im at or who's around. this allows me to enjoy life to its fullest, because ill go anywhere to see or do something that interests me. whether or not im the only minority or its all minorities is of no concern to me. my freinds, white, black and other are amazed at this aspect of my personality, but its who ive always been.
    EAST COAST
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  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSingleGuy
    MagnetoDrive?

    I think I stole that from a movie or something...

    goin for a ride now.
    Perhaps "Magnetic Intelligent Lockout Fork" (or MILF).

    "Hey, did you check out that MILF in the corner? I'd like to hop on that!"

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by edouble
    my best freind has 2 brothers that were born and raised in Holland. they come to visit every couple of years but after a few weeks cant take the racism and segregation that is common place in the good ol' U.S of A. they are bi-racial and see themselves and everyone else as human beings first and foremost. their mom, who is white, came over one year and was even more put off by the racism and segregation than her sons were.
    we think were so much more "equal" here but watching those guys and their mom slowly sink into a depressed state from whats "normal" to us taught me a lot. we struggled to keep finding things to do where people of all races socialized freely. this was what they were used to, yet we had to work to find it consistantly, in NYC no less!. they didnt want to be around all white or all black people. WE HAVE A LOT TO LEARN.
    I'm struck by your description of "racism and segregation" in the U.S.

    It seems you are being just as exclusive by demanding that your social groups have certain amounts of certain demographics.

    You have described a fairytale where there is a perfectly equal number of ALL races represented in every social setting.

    Is it possible that a group of black people hanging out together might not be racist towards anyone else...but just hanging out?

    Is it possible that we are still discussing race when we should be discussing the new fork from White Brothers...which refers to a bike part and NOT a race?

  71. #71
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    youre totally twisting what i said...

    Quote Originally Posted by Padre
    I'm struck by your description of "racism and segregation" in the U.S.

    It seems you are being just as exclusive by demanding that your social groups have certain amounts of certain demographics.

    You have described a fairytale where there is a perfectly equal number of ALL races represented in every social setting.

    Is it possible that a group of black people hanging out together might not be racist towards anyone else...but just hanging out?

    Is it possible that we are still discussing race when we should be discussing the new fork from White Brothers...which refers to a bike part and NOT a race?
    my freinds, being from Holland, are used to more diverse crowds than what are commonly found in the U.S. in social settings. i demanded nothing, just tried to make my freinds more comfortable. you seem a bit bothered by that?.
    where did i say an "equal number of all races represented in every social setting"?.
    or that people hanging out with others of their race means their racist?. get a clue, theres a big difference between sharing the same space (what we do in the US) and truly living amongst, socializing and forming intimate relationships with people based on who they are not what they are. groups of people of the same race hanging out dosnt make anyone racist, nor did i imply so. but when people only have professional or superficial relationships with people of other races (as most americans do and this was quite obvious to them and their mom) then obviously race is a factor in who they chose to be close to. thats a fact, you may not like it, but it is.
    lastly, i was responding to a comment about race made in this tread, which im free to do. if you dont like it thats your problem, not mines or anyone else's. some times the truth is a most unpleasant thing.
    Last edited by edouble; 09-25-2005 at 02:38 PM. Reason: to add info
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    This is the REAL problem with Americans.

    Quote Originally Posted by edouble
    ................ but when people only have professional or superficial relationships with people ...........................................
    Sorry for the off topic, but if you would have just left it like this, you'd have hit the nail on the head. Alot of folks I meet are relationally dis-functional, nevermind what thier race is.

    Anywho......I really like those new White Brothers forks, the price seems right. Especially when the new Manitou XC fork costs over a GRAND........for a 26 inch fork!
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  73. #73
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    what you say is true....

    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Sorry for the off topic, but if you would have just left it like this, you'd have hit the nail on the head. Alot of folks I meet are relationally dis-functional, nevermind what thier race is.

    Anywho......I really like those new White Brothers forks, the price seems right. Especially when the new Manitou XC fork costs over a GRAND........for a 26 inch fork!
    but the other things i said are true as well. anyway, i just picked up a bw.8 off ebay so im taking the 29in plunge. a grand for a fork?, thats ridiculous
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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by edouble
    but when people only have professional or superficial relationships with people of other races (as most americans do and this was quite obvious to them and their mom) then obviously race is a factor in who they chose to be close to. thats a fact, you may not like it, but it is.
    Are you the judge of superficiality?

    Hope I pass....

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