1st photos of a Cannondale Flash carbon 29er- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    1st photos of a Cannondale Flash carbon 29er









    For the 2010 cycling season, Cannondale has completely redesigned the 29 inch segment of their mountain line up. At the top, they’ve introduced a new model, known as the “Flash Carbon 29′er”. With new geometry, the usual Cannondale standard of over-sized tubing and unique carbon lay-up, this is one of the lightest, most nimble 29′ers on the market. This particular bike that we feature in the photos, is actually a pre-production model that was built for Cannondale to show at the upcoming Iceman. The frame and fork are production but the component spec is not what you’ll find on their stock bikes.

    The Flash Carbon 29′ers will come in two spec’s and run $4,800 & $3,500 for each. With the over whelming reactions we’ve seen and the number of request for more information, this is sure to be a hard to get bike. We should see these start to ship before the first of the year. Make sure you stop in and take a look as we’re not expecting to have this bike to show for long!
    https://www.greatlakescycling.com/20...h-carbon-29er/

  2. #2
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    wow for $5k I would expect a SS and a rigid fork..oh well?

  3. #3
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    so cool, me likie!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by metelhead
    wow for $5k I would expect a SS and a rigid fork..oh well?


    This particular bike that we feature in the photos, is actually a pre-production model that was built for Cannondale to show at the upcoming Iceman. The frame and fork are production but the component spec is not what you’ll find on their stock bikes.

  5. #5
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    Ordering my Flash 29er 1 in a week or two... very excited...
    Brought to you by rocks.

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    I think the black and white is boring.

    BUT I like the bike overall!

  7. #7
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    Looks like grease on a carbon post... yikes

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by TXDirtDawg
    Looks like grease on a carbon post... yikes
    yep, probably carbon grease........

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAmtbiker
    Ordering my Flash 29er 1 in a week or two... very excited...
    I ordered my flash carbon 29er back in mid-September I was told by the shop two weeks ago the ETA is probably halfway thru this month.

    The longer you hesitate the more folks will be in line in front of you...

  10. #10
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    is this a chinese cannondale?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruso414
    is this a chinese cannondale?
    The carbon ones aren't made in the US anymore. My alloy one is

  12. #12
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    yet another reason I don't ride a cannondale anymore.

  13. #13
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    Flash is still made in the states, as far as I know.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by playpunk
    Flash is still made in the states, as far as I know.

    Only the aluminum ones.

    I would like to say that I chose aluminum because it was made in the US of A, but the fact that my wallet was empty played a part in the decision. (And I really do like the look of the white)

  15. #15
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    I think it looks great. What is the Flash 1 and 2 suppose to weigh in at? I like that the flash 1 comes with an Arch wheelset.
    Got LEFTY?
    -2019 C'dale SuperSlateX
    -2017 C’dale Scalpel Carbon 3
    -2014 C’dale Bad Boy 1

  16. #16
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    Cannondale (well, Doral who owns Cannondale...) shuttered the US facility earlier this was the report - no C'dales are made in the US anymore.
    R.I.P. Corky 10/97-4/09
    Disclaimer: I sell and repair bikes for a living


  17. #17
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    it's pretty easy to figure out since the "handmade in the USA" is ominously missing from the chainstays. good-bye cannondale.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATBScott
    Cannondale (well, Doral who owns Cannondale...) shuttered the US facility earlier this was the report - no C'dales are made in the US anymore.
    Actually, there are still many US made Cannondales: Scalpels, Rizes, Alloy Flashes, CAAD 9 bikes... They said earlier that they would switch the production to Asia but not all at once, it will be made gradually. The facilities in the US wont close, they will do different things: parts, Lefties, QC...

    And some still US made models have smaller, not as noticable Handmade in the US decals... Personnally, I never liked the huge Handmade in the USA on the seatstays, it's like having a t-shirt with a label outside that is half the size of your back!

    DAN.GEROUS.NET : MOUNTAIN BIKING : CYCLOCROSS : ROAD :

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruso414
    it's pretty easy to figure out since the "handmade in the USA" is ominously missing from the chainstays. good-bye cannondale.

    If you were to check the cannondale page you'd see that there are still quite a few made in the US.

    Aren't the lefty's made in the US? Mine says so. Does the beloved Fox fork say made in the US. Mine doesn't.

    I really enjoy the fact that my frame and fork are made in the US.

  20. #20
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    I own a US made Cannondale and one of the reasons I bought it was because it was US made. Since then I've done some research and realized that it's naive to think that because the Carbon bikes arent made in the US, they arent the same quality as the US made bikes. In all reality the machines in Asia are calibrated with the same frequency as the ones in the US. The factories in Asia have agreements with the US companies (Cannondale or whoever) to calibrate machines a specific way. The Quality Control guys are taught to be as strict as the US QC guys.
    It's nice to say it's US made, but even that's only a half truth at times. Only 2/3 of the total value of the parts that complete the bike have to me US made to make it "US Made" anyway

    There's no question as soon as I have the $$ for a Cannondale Flash I'll be buying Taiwan carbon!!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by legsrburnin
    ...Since then I've done some research and realized that it's naive to think that because the Carbon bikes arent made in the US, they arent the same quality as the US made bikes. In all reality the machines in Asia are calibrated with the same frequency as the ones in the US. The factories in Asia have agreements with the US companies (Cannondale or whoever) to calibrate machines a specific way. The Quality Control guys are taught to be as strict as the US QC guys.
    I agree 100% that the CF bikes made in Taiwan are likely, if not definitely, made as well as a U.S.- made frame. The issue is that the Manufacturers switched production to these countries because of the huge cost-savings, yet really have not passed down any of the savings to the consumer - the owners and shareholders just reap huge profits and dividends. The other side of this is that the job is now "offshored" and there are fewer workers here making a living building bicycles, just as has happened with so many of our other industries. Who will they be selling their $4000+ bikes to when nobody here has a good paying job to afford them? The guy they are paying $3/hr to in Taiwan, or a fraction of that in China? I don't think there will be many sales at that level of income. And this has a "trickle up" effect: With less industry, fewer jobs are needed in admin, IT, and all the other supporting roles. When they don't have jobs, medical, food, and all the other industries have to start competing for the money that is out there, and that usually means dropping prices if the economy is bad. To do that, means lower wages and/or fewer personnel, etc... You should be able to see where this goes.

    My next bike will be steel or Ti built in this country, when I can afford it myself. Fatback can afford to have a aluminum "Fat Bike" built in Portland, OR by the same fabricators that build for Turner and other higher-end builders, and sell it for $499. Are they making huge money on this? I doubt it, but they are employing their fellow countrymen/women and contributing to the tax base, and I'll bet they are making some measurable profit on it. Compare the frame to a Surly Pugsley which sells for about $150 more and is made in Taiwan, from decent but not outstanding Chromoly steel at a great savings in labor, and you have to wonder where the extra "value" is in making bikes there... Think about what you do for a living, and if that was able to be farmed out, what you would do if it happened to you, or if your customers went out of business because their business dried up 'cause the manufacturing went overseas. This will ultimately affect everyone.
    R.I.P. Corky 10/97-4/09
    Disclaimer: I sell and repair bikes for a living


  22. #22
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    ATBScott; you are correct in your assessment and not to hijack the thread, but we are currently moving a US based refrigerator plant to Mexico. While it will cost more to ship the refrigerators to the main market; the US, the labor cost is less than half in Mexico. But what most people don't realize is that 70% of the labor cost difference (which is huge) is health care. If you really look at the underlying reason all the manufacturing jobs are leaving the US health care costs end up being much of the problem.

    In the refrigerator example the average US worker makes around $19 per hour in this plant but their health care costs the company around $15 per hour. I think the Mexican plant pays around $9 per hour with no health care costs. Since the production is highly automated the difference in shipping would more than offset the wage differential, but not with the health care thrown in too.

    Almost nobody realizes that in this country we spend almost 25% of the GNP on health care by far the highest in the world. This is all due mainly to lobbyists for the Drug companies, health insurance companies, hospital associations, and the AMA. Those 4 groups alone are generally in the top 10 every year on lobbying expenditures. Our actual health care is only something like 32nd in overall rankings in the world. I don't think we are going to solve this problem with health care reform. My personal opinion is that the government will have to nationalize it and that will probably never happen so we are probably going to have a health care train wreck in about 5 years when costs approach 40% of GNP.

  23. #23
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    couldn't have said it better.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATBScott
    I agree 100% that the CF bikes made in Taiwan are likely, if not definitely, made as well as a U.S.- made frame. The issue is that the Manufacturers switched production to these countries because of the huge cost-savings, yet really have not passed down any of the savings to the consumer - the owners and shareholders just reap huge profits and dividends. The other side of this is that the job is now "offshored" and there are fewer workers here making a living building bicycles, just as has happened with so many of our other industries. Who will they be selling their $4000+ bikes to when nobody here has a good paying job to afford them? The guy they are paying $3/hr to in Taiwan, or a fraction of that in China? I don't think there will be many sales at that level of income. And this has a "trickle up" effect: With less industry, fewer jobs are needed in admin, IT, and all the other supporting roles. When they don't have jobs, medical, food, and all the other industries have to start competing for the money that is out there, and that usually means dropping prices if the economy is bad. To do that, means lower wages and/or fewer personnel, etc... You should be able to see where this goes.

    My next bike will be steel or Ti built in this country, when I can afford it myself. Fatback can afford to have a aluminum "Fat Bike" built in Portland, OR by the same fabricators that build for Turner and other higher-end builders, and sell it for $499. Are they making huge money on this? I doubt it, but they are employing their fellow countrymen/women and contributing to the tax base, and I'll bet they are making some measurable profit on it. Compare the frame to a Surly Pugsley which sells for about $150 more and is made in Taiwan, from decent but not outstanding Chromoly steel at a great savings in labor, and you have to wonder where the extra "value" is in making bikes there... Think about what you do for a living, and if that was able to be farmed out, what you would do if it happened to you, or if your customers went out of business because their business dried up 'cause the manufacturing went overseas. This will ultimately affect everyone.
    This is why I bought a Lynskey this year after decades riding and supporting only cannondale. This was discussed to death when Doral aquired them. The point isn't that the frames are made overseas, it's the fact that they made their reputation for being "handmade in the USA". Since they no longer choose to support their OWN economy, I chose to no longer support them.

  24. #24
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    Is that an externally butted seatpost?

  25. #25
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    No, the carbon seatpost (and the chainstays) have a built-in flex zone, stiff sideways, a little vertical give...

    DAN.GEROUS.NET : MOUNTAIN BIKING : CYCLOCROSS : ROAD :

  26. #26
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    Political rant deleted by mod. Talk about bikes.
    Last edited by Vecsus; 01-31-2010 at 06:14 PM.

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    ....little cush for the tush.

  28. #28
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    Nice work, HAL.

    Yourdaguy, exactly which government agency would you trust to administer YOUR healthcare?

    Sorry for the continued threadjacking...

    The Cannondale looks sweet, by the way.

  29. #29
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    I sure hope all those people *****ing about Cannondale's not being made in the US aren't shopping at Walmart. I love the bumper stickers you see in their parking lot about supporting the troops and patriotism and such. I guess those concepts only extend to automobiles made in the US and nothing else.

  30. #30
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    HAL, the lynching of Scooter Libby. HA! You must be buds with the folks at ENRON and Halliburton. Maybe you should try clawing your way out of your rightwing straight jacket and objectively look at the issues. While I don't totally disagree with you, it is more thoughtful to have conversation rather than throw prescribed rhetoric around. BTW, that C-dale looks sweet. Sorry if this offends anyone, I had to take the bait.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelhoss
    ... and objectively look at the issues.
    Is that what you liberals do Hoss? Look at things objectively?

    I always wanted to try a lefty, fork that is
    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes View Post
    Of course the easiest way to fix this is to go for a hike.
    DT

  32. #32
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    D, that was pretty funny. Maybe I did not do a good job of making my point clear. The BS polarization is what is not helpful. I lean left, far from liberal, but that is more likely has to do with my work. If we stuff ourselves into silos, there is no opportunity for meaningful conversation or debate about important issues. Its the us against them mentality and from my view of history, that does not work.

    Really not that different from the 26 vs. 29fer debate

  33. #33
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    D, that was pretty funny. Maybe I did not do a good job of making my point clear. The BS polarization is what is not helpful. I lean left, far from liberal, but that is more likely has to do with my work. If we stuff ourselves into silos, there is no opportunity for meaningful conversation or debate about important issues. Its the us against them mentality and from my view of history, that does not work.

    Really not that different from the 26 vs. 29fer debate

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    OK since you crybabies brought up politics and healthcare perhaps this is the problem...the democratic party is totally the lawyer party. That’s one reason this health care stuff doesn’t address tort reform & malpractice suits. I think those legal angles are one reason for higher cost of medical care.
    Great post, to the lawyers in America you are the most unruly, unethical, unprofessional yet professionally organized group of self serving, self promoting, and belligerent group of a_holes I've ever had the displeasure to have come across.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MessagefromTate
    Great post, to the lawyers in America you are the most unruly, unethical, unprofessional yet professionally organized group of self serving, self promoting, and belligerent group of a_holes I've ever had the displeasure to have come across.
    True but unfortunately I have worked for (and been treated by) a few doctors that I could almost say the same about Often they hold that sense of "entitlement" that politicians and other upper level public servants feel.

    Wheelhoss, I agree with your take on polarization. Nothing is absolute in politics. I vote for the lesser evil (my perception).
    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes View Post
    Of course the easiest way to fix this is to go for a hike.
    DT

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuxdiesel
    those concepts only extend to automobiles made in the US and nothing else.
    You mean Toyotas and Nissans???

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFYFZX
    You mean Toyotas and Nissans???
    ..........and Honda.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelhoss
    Maybe you should try clawing your way out of your rightwing straight jacket and objectively look at the issues.
    Some of us view things as they are not as we wish them to be...by they way how is that hope & change working for you?

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    Some of us view things as they are not as we wish them to be...by they way how is that hope & change working for you?
    It's working waaaaaaay better than the ditch that bu$h drove us into. btw, I'm a registered republican........or at least I was.

  40. #40
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    The C-dale looks GREAT! and not to be left out... I sure wish we had Republican leadership in this country, because the previous eight years were VERY prosperous! Can you believe the hole Obama has dug us in just 11 months in office. A war we can't win, a recession, and singlehandedly destroying the fabulous health care system we had/have. I did love the 80's...where the hell is Reagan when we need him!
    "No good deed goes unpunished"

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach417
    The C-dale looks GREAT! and not to be left out... I sure wish we had Republican leadership in this country, because the previous eight years were VERY prosperous! Can you believe the hole Obama has dug us in just 11 months in office. A war we can't win, a recession, and singlehandedly destroying the fabulous health care system we had/have. I did love the 80's...where the hell is Reagan when we need him!
    you are joking, right? you couldn't really be that stupid.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruso414
    you are joking, right? you couldn't really be that stupid.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm
    "No good deed goes unpunished"

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach417
    sorry. I couldn't believe someone could actually be that stupid. btw sarcasm is better noted by adding one of these.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruso414
    sorry. I couldn't believe someone could actually be that stupid. btw sarcasm is better noted by adding one of these.

    That was done on purpose. Thanks though. I do have to say. Growing up (high school and college) in the 80's WAS awesome...good times...good times!
    "No good deed goes unpunished"

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach417
    That was done on purpose. Thanks though. I do have to say. Growing up (high school and college) in the 80's WAS awesome...good times...good times!
    no argument there. amazing how simple life was then.....except for the fear of getting vaporized.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1st photos of a Cannondale Flash carbon 29er-atomic-bomb-l.jpg  


  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by 88 rex
    ..........and Honda.
    and some Subaru's

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruso414
    no argument there. amazing how simple life was then.....except for the fear of getting vaporized.
    Yeah, too young and stupid to really worry about such mundane things... I had skirts to chase!

    Sorry, highjack over.
    "No good deed goes unpunished"

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach417
    The C-dale looks GREAT! and not to be left out... I sure wish we had Republican leadership in this country, because the previous eight years were VERY prosperous! Can you believe the hole Obama has dug us in just 11 months in office. A war we can't win, a recession, and singlehandedly destroying the fabulous health care system we had/have. I did love the 80's...where the hell is Reagan when we need him!
    You have top admit, all the shiny new pennies are AWESOME

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruso414
    It's working waaaaaaay better than the ditch that bu$h drove us into.
    well then i'm sure you could list some of Barry's accomplishments thus far...other than flying around the globe on his apology tour and has managed to single-handedly destroy our economy.

  50. #50
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    I think the economy was already way down and dropping fast when he took over if I remember correctly.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourdaguy
    I think the economy was already way down and dropping fast when he took over if I remember correctly.
    This is correct we were in a recession starting back in 07' and Bush is an idiot for bailing out the banks

    However also correct is that Obama has done everything possible to add fuel to the fire and prolong the economic downturn.

    Bush started the car and Obama has the gas pedal mashed to the floor.

    We could go on all day long and point fingers at who did this or who did that and make everyone angry however i'd rather talk about bikes and riding.

  52. #52
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    Not 07

    ok - this is getting out of hand, but to be clear, Bush didnt start the recession. It certainly didnt start in 07.
    It manifested itself in 07.

    If there was to be any finger pointing to be done, you could actually claim it was Clinton and his home ownership incentives. He (or at least policies attributed to his time in power) actively discouraged banks from refusing mortgages, postiviely encouraged people to beleive that real estate was unlike any other investment vehicle ever created - it will never depreciate - and therefore exposed a gazzillion poeple to an economy based on lies.

    Thanks Greenspan, Clinton, and economic advisors.

    To be clear, I have no political allegiance - I am a brit, living in Australia.

  53. #53
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    Then that is why you seem to have forgotten that Bush and the Repugs had almost unlimited power for 8 straight years. You can't possibly blame Clinton for the economic problems of the last year of Bush's term and the current result. Clinton took over by winning with the phrase "it's the economy stupid" from the previous Repug administration and all their economic mistakes and by the 2nd year of his first term the economy was on the rise and it basically rose during most of his time. Then in the 8 years after Clinton the Repugs totally reversed all Clinton's gains and then some.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourdaguy
    Then that is why you seem to have forgotten that Bush and the Repugs had almost unlimited power for 8 straight years. You can't possibly blame Clinton for the economic problems of the last year of Bush's term and the current result. Clinton took over by winning with the phrase "it's the economy stupid" from the previous Repug administration and all their economic mistakes and by the 2nd year of his first term the economy was on the rise and it basically rose during most of his time. Then in the 8 years after Clinton the Repugs totally reversed all Clinton's gains and then some.
    And what policy did Clinton institute to truly grow the economy? None, although he did support some of the policies that later caused the collapse. He repealed the Glass Steagall Act and believed that home ownership was a right (regardless of income level). To be specific though, it was business investment (remember Y2K), and speculation that grew the economy, not Clinton.

    Reagan cut taxes and yet still grew the GDP, so if you understand the economics of that it indicates that wages/economic activity grew (hence more tax revenue collected despite the falling marginal rate). No party is perfect but you need to study more before making like Monica Lewinsky...

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    You need to study more and you should read Clinton's book as I have for a thorough summary of his economic policies and why they were the right move and why they worked. He also comments on why the tax cuts for the rich trickle down does not work and is basically a ploy by the right to have things their way without really helping.

    Anyway, we have hijacked this thread enough-I will comment no further.

  56. #56
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    on scale


    10 kg , no pedals
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1st photos of a Cannondale Flash carbon 29er-flash2onscale.jpg  


  57. #57
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    While I'd try and support US based companies as much as possible, the fact remains that I buy whatever fits my performance index as to what I am looking at and what I expect it to do.

    All you guys saying you'll no longer support CDale - I ask you this... Do you really expect us all to believe that EVERYTHING you own is 100% made in the USA? If so, you are kidding yourself. Your Chevy has more Canadian and Mexican parts on it than what was made in the US, your fridge, your stove, your components on your bike, etc...

    Get over the whole "I'm only buying what's made in the US" thing. Support CDale as it employs a TON of people here in the States. They have a bunch of hard working US people building parts and such and even frames here...

    In fact, buy a Toyota, buy a Chumba, buy a BMW. All these companies employ and support US workers. Their product may be made in another company, but they have bases here and hire and support US citizens.

    It's less about the parts and where they are made and more about where the base of operations and where they employ workers. If CDale was entirely overseas and didn't employ any US workers, I'd understand. But, they aren't and the US people working hard at their plants in the US deserve your support as fellow Americans.

    Jesus.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by eliflap
    on scale = 10 kg , no pedals

    Okay, lemme see, in the US of 'Merica we ain't got nothing in Kilos, well, almost nothing.

    1kg=2.2lb so 10kg=22lb

    So my 3 year old Fisher Ferrous weighs 22.6lbs and rides like a dream. Why the F would I want to spend more than $3000 for a plastic bike that most likely will have the same failure rate as the Superfly? Oh wait, it's a tank so it won't break as much as a Superfly.

    Keep it. I'll just wait for the Super-Duper Fly to roll out.

    Yes, there is such a thing as a Super-Duper Fly. You'd be surprised what you can overhear in a coffee shop near the Trek Factory.
    Authorities speculate that speed may have been a factor. They are also holding gravity and inertia for questioning.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caffeine Powered
    Okay, lemme see, in the US of 'Merica we ain't got nothing in Kilos, well, almost nothing.

    1kg=2.2lb so 10kg=22lb

    So my 3 year old Fisher Ferrous weighs 22.6lbs and rides like a dream. Why the F would I want to spend more than $3000 for a plastic bike that most likely will have the same failure rate as the Superfly? Oh wait, it's a tank so it won't break as much as a Superfly.

    Keep it. I'll just wait for the Super-Duper Fly to roll out.

    Yes, there is such a thing as a Super-Duper Fly. You'd be surprised what you can overhear in a coffee shop near the Trek Factory.
    A 22.6 lb Ferrous? Maybe a singlespeed version with all weight weenie parts thrown at it, in which case it would probably cost as much as the Flash and be more fragile.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by bde1024
    A 22.6 lb Ferrous? Maybe a singlespeed version with all weight weenie parts thrown at it, in which case it would probably cost as much as the Flash and be more fragile.
    +1

    This Flash will loss somme weight soon.
    It should reach near 9,2 kg (20,3 lb) with pedals.
    I'll keep you informed




  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetraid
    +1

    This Flash will loss somme weight soon.
    It should reach near 9,2 kg (20,3 lb) with pedals.
    I'll keep you informed



    is this a flash 1 or 2 ?

    because the specs don't match up to the cannondale website for either.

    i'm still waiting on mine to show up

  62. #62
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    I will check but it's an Euro spec Flash so there's probably some difference with the US spec....
    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    is this a flash 1 or 2 ?

    because the specs don't match up to the cannondale website for either.

    i'm still waiting on mine to show up

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by bde1024
    A 22.6 lb Ferrous? Maybe a singlespeed version with all weight weenie parts thrown at it, in which case it would probably cost as much as the Flash and be more fragile.

    Well duh. In that case I'll roll out my 1995 Cannondale M900 with gears and Manitou 4 which weighs 20.5 lbs. Granted it's 26" wheels but it isn't a weight weenie machine. WTF happened to Cannondales, okay all frames that they've gotten heavier in the last 10 years but they we seem to see more failures?

    As for my Ferrous, aside from the Swichblade and ACC post it's a Rig with a frame transplant after the Rig broke.
    Authorities speculate that speed may have been a factor. They are also holding gravity and inertia for questioning.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetraid
    +1

    This Flash will loss somme weight soon.
    It should reach near 9,2 kg (20,3 lb) with pedals.
    I'll keep you informed



    my pictures are famous I see

    I saw him in real life and the bike is a beauty!!!!

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caffeine Powered
    Well duh. In that case I'll roll out my 1995 Cannondale M900 with gears and Manitou 4 which weighs 20.5 lbs. Granted it's 26" wheels but it isn't a weight weenie machine. WTF happened to Cannondales, okay all frames that they've gotten heavier in the last 10 years but they we seem to see more failures?

    As for my Ferrous, aside from the Swichblade and ACC post it's a Rig with a frame transplant after the Rig broke.
    So we're comparing a singlespeed with rigid carbon (plastic?) fork to a geared bike with front suspension. Hardly apples to apples. A modern carbon frame with your fork would build up under 20 without too much trouble. On top of that, your frame is a replacement for a metal frame that apparently broke on you. I guess carbon isn't the only frame material that breaks occasionally.

    I have no doubt your Ferrous rides great. I've got a steel 29er myself, and there's something about the feel that is hard to duplicate. But there's no getting around the weight savings and tunability available in carbon, and I think it's time to recognize that carbon has become a mainstream material for mountain bikes, just like it is for other high end sporting goods (tennis raquets, golf clubs, ski equipment, road bikes, etc.).

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourdaguy
    You need to study more and you should read Clinton's book as I have for a thorough summary of his economic policies and why they were the right move and why they worked. He also comments on why the tax cuts for the rich trickle down does not work and is basically a ploy by the right to have things their way without really helping.

    Anyway, we have hijacked this thread enough-I will comment no further.
    Clinton's book explains why he made all the right moves...? Wow, next you will tell me that bankrupt companies should pay retention bonuses to retain the talent that well, got them into the mess they are in. Yes, that happened too. You're a genius.

  67. #67
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    No I don't expect everything I buy to be 100% made in the USA but when I have a choice I will buy the American product and no it doesn't always cost more. I have been a loyal Cannonondale customer for 20+ years because they employ american manufacture workers and I feel their bikes were very competitive and often superior to the imported competition at all price points.Will the prices drop on the imported Cannondales not likely.With out the made in USA label they are now the same as all imports and will have to find a way to prove themselves superior not just equal to the competition to keep me as a customer.

  68. #68
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    My eyes might be deceiving me but it looks like gripshift and FSA afterburner crank? Weird that the Euro Cannondale site doesn't list the 29er at all.

    http://gb.cannondale.com/bikes/10/ce/mountain.html

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourdaguy
    You need to study more and you should read Clinton's book as I have for a thorough summary of his economic policies and why they were the right move and why they worked. He also comments on why the tax cuts for the rich trickle down does not work and is basically a ploy by the right to have things their way without really helping.

    Anyway, we have hijacked this thread enough-I will comment no further.
    "read Clinton's book"???? As a way of judging his economic accomplishments?
    The reality of trickle down economics is a fact like the sun coming up. If you can't see how it is killing the economy right now you can't be saved. Evidence is everywhere, just come see Detroit.

    Please take your Socialist philosophy and Obama's "shovel ready jobs" back to Europe. Who really wants to shovel dirt all day?

    Also, I work in the Health Care industry and the reason it is so expensive is government mandates. It make it understandable for Liberals I'll analogize. Use car insurance as an example. If you force insurance companies to take poor drivers (similar to forcing health insurance companies to take people with preexisting conditions) the company is forced to charge everyone more and more money to cover the poor drivers. This would only be exasperated under a government run plan (which is insane). There is NOTHING someone in DC can do better for you than you.

    Final point, saying the US spends more on HC than any other country is a pandering statement that is meaningless unless you have more information or.....wait for it....A POINT.
    The US has a bigger population than most countries.
    Americans have access to HC that other people don't (that is like complaining Marin sells too many bikes in Marin county)
    America is more compassionate with spending than other countries
    The latest medical devices are in the US and cost more, but probably work better.

    The person that said the US's health care was ranked 32 in the world is sniffing glue and if you put truth serum in them would admit they don't believe that. When rich people of the world need a procedure, they get on a plane and come to the US.

    AMERICA Rocks because we are not like every other country in the world, I for one want to keep it that way.
    Me to my riding buddy, "Want to ride this afternoon?"
    Him, "I can't. I have to chop this guys foot off at 2".

  70. #70
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    The biggest reason why health care is so expensive is because the general population does not take their health seriously. The USA is the most obese country in the world. Obesity is a huge contribution to health issues. Heart problems, blood pressure issues, diabetes, and even cancer.

    If people took better care of their bodies, I'd put money on the fact that health care would cost less.

    Kind of like if you do the proper maintenance on your car, the major repairs are few and far between.


    To the OP, Sweet bike.

  71. #71
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    Hey. Im pretty interested in those "euro specs" since i have one in order.

    What are the specs? Really hard to see in the pics.

    Cant wait to get my hands on it.

  72. #72
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    "Euro specs"??? screw that! lets talk more politics!

    UUUGGGHHHH!!!

  73. #73
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    The Medicare prescription drug plan that was enacted by Bush and a Republican senate is more expensive than anything Obama has gotten passed yet.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you'll crash.

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    thanks for the good answers.
    Why dont you get a haircut, a job and take the political stuff somewhere else.
    Definetely my last post on this forum.

  75. #75
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    Wow. Only on the 29er board could you find a thread like this.

    You really shouldn't open the pod bay doors, HAL.

  76. #76
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    my bike is arrived at shop this morning . carbon flash 29er

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    OK since you crybabies brought up politics and healthcare perhaps this is the problem...the democratic party is totally the lawyer party. That’s one reason this health care stuff doesn’t address tort reform & malpractice suits. I think those legal angles are one reason for higher cost of medical care.
    Most politicians have law degrees. This is nothing new. Unless you've done a statistical analysis, I'd say you've just picked and choosen some figures that happen to suit your hypthesis, Pretty lame.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Most politicians have law degrees. This is nothing new. Unless you've done a statistical analysis, I'd say you've just picked and choosen some figures that happen to suit your hypthesis, Pretty lame.
    i suggest you go back and re-read what i had originally posted because i'm not sure i'm following the reasoning behind your argument.

  79. #79
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    here is pic
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1st photos of a Cannondale Flash carbon 29er-imgp0071.jpg  


  80. #80
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    first one in Texas






  81. #81
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    That's a beauty Hal Is that one for you?

  82. #82
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    Politics have no business in this thread. While we are here though, anyone who can research actual facts and not here say, knows Clinton made the sh%t sandwich we are all eating now.

  83. #83
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    curious to see mine ( M size ) and its seatpost ...

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duzitall
    That's a beauty Hal Is that one for you?
    yep it's gonna be stripped down and built up with nice SRAM XX and other blingy stuff just waiting on a seat post and handlebar from edge composites so it will be next week till it's official unveiling.

  85. #85
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    looking forward to see your pictures eliflap and HAL 9000!

    Again its a beauty the flash 29er!

  86. #86
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    Dang, still waiting for my frame which is due next month. What type of front der is the carbon frame using? I see it's a direct mount. Is it the newer style XT 771-D or the older 770 e-style with the BB mount removed?

    Edit: just saw the post in the C'dale forum that had a link to the tech doc. Looks like the older 770 style.
    Last edited by skinl19; 01-14-2010 at 07:17 AM.

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    Wow, this thread went way sideways.

    and I'm not directing this specifically to your post but to all the left and right wing blah blah through out.

    Big business is responspible for the numerous government mandates and policies....big business doesn't care if you are standing on the right or the left, it only changes how they approach selling/lobbying their specific needs. Not the people's interests...their interests. And if you truly believe there isn't some industry profiting from most of proposed policy changes (whether less or more gov't control) at any level of government you are fooling yourself.

    By the way, I can't wait for my buddy to get his Flash so I can check it out.
    Happy new year..Stuff $: Eno 29wheel (non disc), Yakima, 2 steelheads, with towers for Volvo luggage rails.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourdaguy
    ATBScott; you are correct in your assessment and not to hijack the thread, but we are currently moving a US based refrigerator plant to Mexico. While it will cost more to ship the refrigerators to the main market; the US, the labor cost is less than half in Mexico. But what most people don't realize is that 70% of the labor cost difference (which is huge) is health care. If you really look at the underlying reason all the manufacturing jobs are leaving the US health care costs end up being much of the problem.

    In the refrigerator example the average US worker makes around $19 per hour in this plant but their health care costs the company around $15 per hour. I think the Mexican plant pays around $9 per hour with no health care costs. Since the production is highly automated the difference in shipping would more than offset the wage differential, but not with the health care thrown in too.

    Almost nobody realizes that in this country we spend almost 25% of the GNP on health care by far the highest in the world. This is all due mainly to lobbyists for the Drug companies, health insurance companies, hospital associations, and the AMA. Those 4 groups alone are generally in the top 10 every year on lobbying expenditures. Our actual health care is only something like 32nd in overall rankings in the world. I don't think we are going to solve this problem with health care reform. My personal opinion is that the government will have to nationalize it and that will probably never happen so we are probably going to have a health care train wreck in about 5 years when costs approach 40% of GNP.
    Govt. run healthcare?? What a joke...govt. employees account to no one and many could not survive in corp. world. I run a small medical/pharm supply business and have some observations: rx drugs account for 12-4% of the total health care expenditure...pretty low, insurance companies run on a national average profit of 6%...which is pretty low. Govt. inefficiencies will drive our costs/taxes higher as there is damn little accountability for govt programs..just look at our recent failure to catch the crotch bomber. Obama blamed it on the system..not any individual...right.
    Healthcare ranking 32nd in the world? Source please to see what parameters used. I have visited hospitals in latin america, south america, and parts of europe...if one has a serious medical problem, I'll take USA medicine thank you. Is it any wonder non US citizens come here for care if they can afford it? Go visit one of the Mayo Clinics or Cleveland Clinic to see/hear many foreign patients...including many Canadians who need surgeries and cannot wait on their rationed care. Gee if govt. is the answer (affordable/efficient), we should just have them build everything for the bike industry
    Big cost of doing biz in the US is labor unions and lack of tort reform. The days of a union guy making $40. hour for production work is waning..but govt. employee salaries continue
    to rapidly rise?? We are screwed.
    I like big bars and I cannot lie

  89. #89
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    On my shortlist of the most retarded thread hijacks ever.
    Thanks for screwing it up with political BS.

  90. #90
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    Stick to gears and tires. This is retrded.

  91. #91
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    First ride on new toy today more info later...un-scientific bathroom scale weigh in 19lbs as photographed will take to shop tomorrow for "official" weigh in.




  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    First ride on new toy today more info later...19lbs as photographed will take to shop tomorrow for "official" weigh in.
    19lbs holy moly that's one impressive xc weapon.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    First ride on new toy today more info later...un-scientific bathroom scale weigh in 19lbs as photographed will take to shop tomorrow for "official" weigh in.
    How do you like those Aspen tires?

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by EthanDM
    How do you like those Aspen tires?
    can't really say right now only rode it for a few hours i'll have a more in depth review in a few weeks once i get a bunch of hours and miles on the bike.

  95. #95
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    19.42 Lbs as shown





    22.04 Lbs Niner's wunder bike



    you do the math...


  96. #96
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    I finished my Flash build tonight but not with as many lightweight parts as yours. Size L comes out to just under 21 pounds.

  97. #97
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    unless the cannondale frame is 2.5 pounds lighter than the Niner, this is an such a retarded comparison. The frames are probably within 1/8 pound of each other so you can hang whatever weight weenie disposable crap on it to get it either frame uber-light. Unless crackenfail or Niner starts making the rest of the bike, it's a stupid comparison. My Lynskey weighs 22.6 pounds with actual usable parts on it and will be rolling when both of those frames are in the trash.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruso414
    ... so you can hang whatever weight weenie disposable crap on it to get it either frame uber-light.
    What "disposable crap" do you see on the Flash?
    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes View Post
    Of course the easiest way to fix this is to go for a hike.
    DT

  99. #99
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    My sworks ht 29er carbon came in at 21.3 out of the book. It looks much stronger than the cannondale but I have never ridden cannondale. But hell, whatever that bike is LIGHT. Have fun with it and let other drool or piss on it. It really doesn't matter.

  100. #100
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    My sworks ht 29er carbon came in at 21.3 out of the box. It looks much stronger than the cannondale but I have never ridden cannondale. But hell, whatever that bike is LIGHT. Have fun with it and let other drool or piss on it. It really doesn't matter.

  101. #101
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    difference in price between the Cannondale and Niner?

    The Air9 utilizes a normal fork, without carbon, where as the Flash has a far more expensive front suspension.

  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duzitall
    What "disposable crap" do you see on the Flash?
    you must have only read that one sentence and zoned out about the rest of my previous post. My point is that the frames are very, very close in weight so you can hang all the same plastic weight weenie junk on ANY lightweight frame. Once crackenfail or Niner, or specialized, or trek starts making all the components on the whole bike, then it will be a comparison of the bikes. What most people don't understand is that geometry and fit make a LOT bigger difference on how a bike performs than 1/2 a pound. I can take a sh!t before the race and we can call it even but my bike won't break.

  103. #103
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    The fork is the main weight saving part; probably 2 lbs. The rest is carbon seat rails, etc. which I see no reason for on a MTB.

  104. #104
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    QUOTE=PaintPeelinPbody]difference in price between the Cannondale and Niner?

    The Air9 utilizes a normal fork, without carbon, where as the Flash has a far more expensive front suspension.[/QUOTE]


    Don't forget the cranks. Those SI cranks are also very light

  105. #105
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    I couldn't read the entire thread, so forgive me if this was covered:

    Health care in this country is a disaster, but:

    "...but their health care costs the company around $15 per hour. ..."

    That's $31,200 per year. That can't be right.

    Oh, and I worked for Dorel, in their bike division, prior to Pacific/schwinn/GT/cannondale aquisitions. IMO, a completely soul-less group of bastards. Don't ever buy their products. If you saw what they were doing to their workers in China, you'd be sick, IMO. I was.

  106. #106
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    Why do you think when they started talking about taxing Cadillac health plans, the unions got concerned because many of their plans wold fall under the rule and be taxed.

  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruso414
    unless the cannondale frame is 2.5 pounds lighter than the Niner, this is an such a retarded comparison.
    Ok lets look at the Niner Air 9 Carbon Single speed built with Niner’s tapered carbon rigid fork: 19lb 7oz.



    and compared to a geared cannondale with suspension fork at 19.42 Lbs I'm not trying to start a sword fight on here just showing the facts.

    i could go all apesh*t weight weenie and knock off another pound or so but i built the bike to be a xc race bike built for abuse not some trailer queen.

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruso414
    unless the cannondale frame is 2.5 pounds lighter than the Niner, this is an such a retarded comparison. The frames are probably within 1/8 pound of each other so you can hang whatever weight weenie disposable crap on it to get it either frame uber-light. Unless crackenfail or Niner starts making the rest of the bike, it's a stupid comparison. My Lynskey weighs 22.6 pounds with actual usable parts on it and will be rolling when both of those frames are in the trash.
    I didn't zone out on your awesome post although I'm pretty sure your point is just about how cool your bike is. So your Lynskey weighs 22.6 BFD. My Quiring weighs 20lbs. Irrelevant. Hal was comparing his bike with a lefty to the niner with a rigid CF fork. The Flash appears to be lighter. I withdraw the original question because you're not worth the effort.
    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes View Post
    Of course the easiest way to fix this is to go for a hike.
    DT

  109. #109
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    Bill I ride a 14.4lb trailer queen and my Niner Air 9 Carbon should come in at just under 14lbs this June. I've got everything else, just waiting (impatiently) for the frame and fork. By the way, I Freaking LOVE your new ride! Gonna race Cypresswood next Saturday? I'll see you there if so.
    My Bikes Kick Ass!!!

  110. #110
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    Nice Flash Hal!

  111. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattkock
    Bill I ride a 14.4lb trailer queen and my Niner Air 9 Carbon should come in at just under 14lbs this June.
    Just having fun with the cannondale haters Matt and knocking the Niner cult members down a notch at the same time.

    i didn't build the bike as a weight weenie rig but as something that would be fast and agile on our Texas trails and race courses and since this is my first foray into the land of big wheels i had no preconceived notions on what was a proper 29er and what was not.

    I’m still waiting on the 29er epiphany to happen so I can be a full fledged kool-aid drinker and 26” wheel basher but so far the bike rides like a larger version of my 07’ Scott Scale LTD carbon fiber hardtail.

    We are going out to Terlingua next week to get some riding in the desert and I’ll have a full report on how I like it.

  112. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    Just having fun with the cannondale haters Matt and knocking the Niner cult members down a notch at the same time.

    i didn't build the bike as a weight weenie rig but as something that would be fast and agile on our Texas trails and race courses and since this is my first foray into the land of big wheels i had no preconceived notions on what was a proper 29er and what was not.

    I’m still waiting on the 29er epiphany to happen so I can be a full fledged kool-aid drinker and 26” wheel basher but so far the bike rides like a larger version of my 07’ Scott Scale LTD carbon fiber hardtail.

    We are going out to Terlingua next week to get some riding in the desert and I’ll have a full report on how I like it.
    sounds and looks great! as for your comment regarding niner cult members, that is interesting to watch as of late...not sure their corresponding kool aid is as sweet anymore.

    Local shop visit today and will see when they may have one in the shop to czech out

  113. #113
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    I was just kidding Bill, You know how people Love to Hate my bikes. I seriously LOVE your bike, have fun in Terlingua. Are you coming out to the Cypresswood Short Track Race?
    My Bikes Kick Ass!!!

  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.F.L.

    Oh, and I worked for Dorel, in their bike division, prior to Pacific/schwinn/GT/cannondale aquisitions. IMO, a completely soul-less group of bastards. Don't ever buy their products. If you saw what they were doing to their workers in China, you'd be sick, IMO. I was.
    Yeah Steve but their chinese crackenfail is really light which in turn makes them feel really good about themselves. So what if the company has sold out and screwed it's US employees, you know the ones that they made their name on. I rode cannondale bikes almost exclusively for the last 15 years and now I wouldn't own one if they were giving them away. Even when I did ride crackenfails, I didn't try to make my mountain bike into a road bike, I actually ride my bikes in the mountains.

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruso414
    I didn't try to make my mountain bike into a road bike, I actually ride my bikes in the mountains.
    So what is your point other than being a prick?

  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    So what is your point other than being a prick?
    I guess it's just to annoy pansey a$$ douchebags like you who want to show off their psuedo mountain bike that sits in their garage behind the velvet rope.

  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruso414
    I guess it's just to annoy pansey a$$ douchebags like you who want to show off their psuedo mountain bike that sits in their garage behind the velvet rope.
    Who cares what he rides as long as he rides?

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by 88 rex
    Who cares what he rides as long as he rides?
    He can ride whatever he wants to ride, I could care less. I was agreeing with another poster as to the fact that Dorel (crackenfails owner) has sold out who cannondale made it's reputation on. The jerk-off (HAL9000) decided that this offended his small manhood so he decided to make it personal by calling me a prick for insulting his new uber-fantastic plastic machine. I cannot figure out why people get so offended by someone giving a dissenting opinion of this brand or that. I ride a Lynskey but I didn't make the damn thing so I don't get offended if somone disses on Lynskey. I hope he enjoys his 19lb bundle of joy and hopefully the rest of the guys in the peleton will too.

  119. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruso414
    He can ride whatever he wants to ride, I could care less. I was agreeing with another poster as to the fact that Dorel (crackenfails owner) has sold out who cannondale made it's reputation on. The jerk-off (HAL9000) decided that this offended his small manhood so he decided to make it personal by calling me a prick for insulting his new uber-fantastic plastic machine. I cannot figure out why people get so offended by someone giving a dissenting opinion of this brand or that. I ride a Lynskey but I didn't make the damn thing so I don't get offended if somone disses on Lynskey. I hope he enjoys his 19lb bundle of joy and hopefully the rest of the guys in the peleton will too.
    We get it. You don't like Cannondale, and why you insist on calling them crackenfail is beyond me. They seemed to work well for you for 15 years. So for 15 years you rode your "hand made in the USA" C-dales with pride and NOW, because the company has been sold, you decide that they are all crackenfail. Those "crackenfails" that you so much seem to hate NOW were made in the US by americans. So either the "crackenfails" were poorly manufactured by AMERICANS, or your rhetoric nonsense is nothing but a big fat e-whine.

  120. #120
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    Hal 9000 can you tell me how tall you are? I ordered a large and I am wordering about fit on the Cdale carbon 29er. also are you running the sram xx front deraileur?

  121. #121
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    We also get it, you and douchebag suckle cannondale reguardless of their business practices. They worked well for me when I rode them and they have been called crackenfails long before you were mountainbiking. btw I don't HATE cannondale, that takes too much effort. Like I said, I hope you and HAL9000 enjoy your 19lb uber crap, just be careful that the bars don't break while he's riding you around on them.

  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruso414
    We also get it, you and douchebag suckle cannondale reguardless of their business practices. They worked well for me when I rode them and they have been called crackenfails long before you were mountainbiking. btw I don't HATE cannondale, that takes too much effort. Like I said, I hope you and HAL9000 enjoy your 19lb uber crap, just be careful that the bars don't break while he's riding you around on them.

    C'mon......is this serious? How old are you???

  123. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by 88 rex
    C'mon......is this serious? How old are you???
    probably old enough to be your dad. 39 btw.

  124. #124
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    You losers crack me up. Who argues with anyone on this internet?
    This is how I see it......

    Now quitchyer bichin and ride your whatever bike you ride.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1st photos of a Cannondale Flash carbon 29er-2cocks1240503305.jpg  

    MUD


    My weiner is 10.5".....Oh wait...I'm holding this ruler backward.

  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by A from Il
    Who argues with anyone on this internet?


    .
    I thought that was the point of this entire thread.

  126. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruso414
    I thought that was the point of this entire thread.

    I thought this was cycling. For a minute there I thought I was reading the script from The View. Babbling old women.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    MUD


    My weiner is 10.5".....Oh wait...I'm holding this ruler backward.

  127. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bills
    Hal 9000 can you tell me how tall you are? I ordered a large and I am wordering about fit on the Cdale carbon 29er. also are you running the sram xx front deraileur?
    5'11" / 34" inseam the SRAM XX front der. is a bottom pull direct mount S3 make sure your get an "S3" i got a S1 and had to wait a week or so till i could get the correct one also they make one for the 42t and the 39t make sure you get that right also.

  128. #128
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    cannondales Seat Post: Flash carbon USE Sumo SAVE

    Is it possible to buy the seat post from anywhere? - without the bike. I think they are on to a good idea here

  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbem
    Is it possible to buy the seat post from anywhere? - without the bike. I think they are on to a good idea here

    yes Dr Cannondale 192 euro

  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by eliflap
    yes Dr Cannondale 192 euro
    Holy sh!t that is one expensive seatpost! That thing better pleasure the rider when he/she sits on it.

  131. #131
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    thanks. I order the right size. I have been wondering if I should go 2x9 drivetrain but I understand that clearance issue result from 3X front ders. any advice would be great.

  132. #132
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    size?Size?

    Hal is that a medium?

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    First ride on new toy today more info later...un-scientific bathroom scale weigh in 19lbs as photographed will take to shop tomorrow for "official" weigh in.




  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by trukweaz
    Hal is that a medium?
    No a LARGE

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