The bars I want are the Bontrager Race X Lite Carbon, but as I can't find any of them I'm open to alternatives.
Salsa makes an 11 degree sweep, 0 degree rise bar in metal or carbon. Origin 8 has a 15 degree bar sweep with 0 degree rise. Syntace makes a 12 degree, 640mm width Duraflite in the 31.8mm bar clamp size and a Vector Flatrider with a 12 degree sweep - but that sucker is 800mm wide .
My advice is don't obsess about a couple of degrees of bar sweep which will exclude the majority of mtb bike handlebars sold.
There is a reason why industry std. for mountain bike handlebars independent of rise which simply tunes bar height is...the fore and aft position of the handlebar determines grip angle. A higher backsweep bar is a bandaid for improper bar to saddle distance i.e. too long a cockpit for your preferred torso angle. If you find yourself wanting more sweep, simply shorten your stem by 10mm and your hands will be angled more in agreement with a lower backsweep bar.
I wrote in depth about alternative bars with their cruiser handle angle and I took a bit of flack about it from those that don't quite get it. The majority do.
I run a 10 deg riser on my 29er and it works fine. A bit more close in and a 6-8 deg. bar which is closer to industry standard would be fine as well. Sweep must match fore/aft bar position is the point and a lower backsweep promotes the bar to rest more in the root of the fingers across the palm away from the guyon's canal which is what you want to stay away from when pressurizing the hands off road.
Hope that helps.
PS: Ergon grips for off road riding maybe the most important and transformative cycling purchase I have made.
A higher backsweep bar is a bandaid for improper bar to saddle distance i.e. too long a cockpit for your preferred torso angle. If you find yourself wanting more sweep, simply shorten your stem by 10mm and your hands will be angled more in agreement with a lower backsweep bar.
I wrote in depth about alternative bars with their cruiser handle angle and I took a bit of flack about it from those that don't quite get it.
I remember that thread and I remember that many (seems like most) agreed to disagree with you on your backsweep belief system. Since you are again stating this as fact, I will chime in and say increased backsweep helps bikers to have a more relaxed upper body position from hand to upper back leading to decreased fatigue/discomfort. I agree just adding backsweep is not a substitute for proper cockpit length. However, increased backsweep can make the riding position more comfortable.
Sweep must match fore/aft bar position is the point and a lower backsweep promotes the bar to rest more in the root of the fingers across the palm away from the guyon's canal which is what you want to stay away from when pressurizing the hands off road.
Of course, that angle changes with bar width and riding position in general, and since when is there an "industry standard" sweep angle?
It appears you've dreamed up an entire pseudoscience to justify your personal bar fit opinions. Not everyone likes heavily swept bars; you should probably just leave it at that.
If you don't get it Chuck, then I can't explain it much better. Half of those that started with me in engineering school flunked out along the way for the same reason.
My thesis which really isn't mine but born out of convention honed from exhaustive trial and error and why handlebars specific to particular bikes evolve...is basic ergonomics. This is why road riding and off road riding are very different in terms of handlebar requirements. If you ride your mountain bike like a cruiser out for a sunday stroll then you can ride no handed as well.
Conventions are like sterotypes which are also dismissed. They however apply to the vast majority and why they become conventions and stereotypes.
If you put your hands out in front and then pull them in tight to your body, your elbows stick out and hand position actually reverses creating negative sweep. Some ride with 0 deg handlebar sweep for this reason. The reason why most don't ride a very small bike with handlebar that sweeps forward versus rearward is because a bar positioned this close to the rider does not offer enough arm extension for leverage to control the weight shift change controlling one's torso. For maximum exertion controling the torso, the arms a bit closer in with elbows out helps control the rider CG on the bike the best. It is like doing a push up. Pretty hard to do with your elbows at your sides changing body position not to mention if pushing on a surface..best to push on one that doesn't angle back which only increases grip pressure to not slip.
Ergonomics is a bit of a science clouded by personal preference.
Cheers.
Last edited by dirtrider7; 12-24-2010 at 08:22 AM.
My thesis which really isn't mine but born out of convention honed from exhaustive trial and error and why handlebars specific to particular bikes evolve...it basic ergonomics.
...
Ergonomics is a bit of a science which isn't everybodies strongest subject.
The irony of these sentences.
Originally Posted by dirtrider7
If you put your hands out in front and then pull them in tight to your body, your elbows stick out and hand position actually reverses creating negative sweep. Some ride with 0 deg handlebar sweep for this reason.
Thank you for proving my point and disproving your own.
Of course, that angle changes with bar width and riding position in general, and since when is there an "industry standard" sweep angle?
It appears you've dreamed up an entire pseudoscience to justify your personal bar fit opinions. Not everyone likes heavily swept bars; you should probably just leave it at that.
Jesus...are you really that dense?
I am explaining why the vast majority prefer a 0-10 deg bar on a mtb and for good reason.
Very few prefer an 'alternative' bar on a mtb and for good reason and why it is 'alternative'.
Ummmm...I am extolling the opposite of what you stated. The inter-webs.
Craig...for the record..state what bar sweep you prefer on a mtb.
Thank you for proving my point and disproving your own.
The irony is you can have such a reading deficit.
We may actually agree since you counterdict my posts.
Good comedy at least. Btw...you never made a point.
Jesus...are you really that dense?
I am explaining why the vast majority prefer a 0-10 deg bar on a mtb and for good reason.
Very few prefer an 'alternative' bar on a mtb and for good reason and why it is 'alternative'.
Ummmm...I am extolling the opposite of what you stated. The inter-webs.
Craig...for the record..state what bar sweep you prefer on a mtb.
Why should I? I'm not trying to tell everyone else their preferences are wrong nor did the OP ask for people's opinions on different sweeps.
As for what you are trying to say, who can tell with all the nonsense you were spouting? You said there was an "industry standard" and a good reason for it. Thing is, there isn't. Perhaps you should try harder to say what you mean rather than what sounds impressive. If all you are saying is that most prefer shallower angles, duh.
The irony is you can have such a reading deficit.
We may actually agree since you counterdict my posts.
Good comedy at least. Btw...you never made a point.
Dirtrider, I suggest you get out a dictionary, look up "thesis", "science", and "ergonomics", and while you are at it "everybodies", then ask yourself just what is your "strongest subject" and could it be that the wrong student was flunked out of engineering school. When you realize the illiteracy of your own comments you'll understand what I meant by "irony".
Why should I? I'm not trying to tell everyone else their preferences are wrong nor did the OP ask for people's opinions on different sweeps.
As for what you are trying to say, who can tell with all the nonsense you were spouting? You said there was an "industry standard" and a good reason for it. Thing is, there isn't. Perhaps you should try harder to say what you mean rather than what sounds impressive. If all you are saying is that most prefer shallower angles, duh.
I am not trying to sound impressive. I only sound impressive to you because you are a bit of dim bulb.
I am not telling anybody what to do. Conventions are generally within a given tolerance.
Most wheels are round. Mountain bikes typically have 26 inch wheels and now 650 and 29ers are coming to fore. Conventions do morph. Even handlebars. But guess what?
What is a conventional mountain bike bar? With or without rise and typically 3-10 degrees of backsweep make up say 85% of all mountain bikes sold. I would say that qualifies as a convention...about a 7 degree tolerance + or -. If say 80% of all mtb's sold had a cruiser aka alternative bar on it aka 30-45 deg backsweep, that would be a convention. But it is not the case...a rare exception in fact that some even like on this forum. I am simply explaining how this convention evolved as some may not know.
Some don't know for example how the convention of 26 inch wheels came into being. The answer there is because cruisers had 26 inch wheels and mtbs evolved from cruisers. 26 inch wheels were available with wider rims and wider tires that work better on loose soil were already available. Inherently a 26 inch wheel is stronger and lighter than a 700c wheel because of shorter spoke length. But...a mtb isn't a cruiser and mtbs developed a different convention for handlebars because the demands of off road riding and controlling rider CG on the bike are different than a cruiser. Conventions evolve for a reason.
I preferred the version where you said your thesis wasn't yours because it grew out of your experiences and was a science. That was genius. It's a good thing you aren't trying to sound impressive.
As for your history lesson, it's about as valuable as your ergonomics lesson. Hope it makes you feel good, though.
Dirtrider, I suggest you get out a dictionary, look up "thesis", "science", and "ergonomics", and while you are at it "everybodies", then ask yourself just what is your "strongest subject" and could it be that the wrong student was flunked out of engineering school. When you realize the illiteracy of your own comments you'll understand what I meant by "irony".
Craig you haven't made a point or counterpoint to what I have written. You are a garden variety troll is all. Try to reel in your emotion and make a point. I will ask you again.
What sweep mtb handlebar do you prefer? Maybe we can even find some common ground. Fair to say there is no convention relative to bar rise on a mtb? Although probably 70-80% of all 26 inch mtbs sold have a riser bar...and a bit more have a flat bar on a 29er because of the higher front end. Do we have agreement there?..lol.
I preferred the version where you said your thesis wasn't yours because it grew out of your experiences and was a science. That was genius. It's a good thing you aren't trying to sound impressive.
As for your history lesson, it's about as valuable as your ergonomics lesson. Hope it makes you feel good, though.
There is no refuting convention. It isn't mine, only observed. Maybe we need to start slower to bring you along a bit. I will say most bicycles have a seat. Would you say this is a convention? We can build from there.
Craig, do you have a handlebar on your bike? Do you even know what sweep it is?...lol.
Craig you haven't made a point or counterpoint to what I have written.
I made a specific point in my very first post, one that contradicted you. Your very next comment supported me and I pointed that out. Sorry but you are wrong again.
Since your absolutes have now given way to "conventions" and 70-80% handwaving, perhaps you can explain this comment you made again:
A higher backsweep bar is a bandaid for improper bar to saddle distance i.e. too long a cockpit for your preferred torso angle.
The problem here is your belief that anyone who doesn't do it like you do is wrong. There are reasons to prefer different angles as you have acknowledged yourself. You can temper this all you want after the fact but it doesn't change what has been said. As I said in my first post, not everyone likes heavily swept bars and you should probably just leave it at that. Incidentally, the OP wasn't asking about a high sweep bar.
I made a specific point in my very first post, one that contradicted you. Your very next comment supported me and I pointed that out. Sorry but you are wrong again.
Since your absolutes have now given way to "conventions" and 70-80% handwaving, perhaps you can explain this comment you made again:
A higher backsweep bar is a bandaid for improper bar to saddle distance i.e. too long a cockpit for your preferred torso angle.
The problem here is your belief that anyone who doesn't do it like you do is wrong. There are reasons to prefer different angles as you have acknowledged yourself. You can temper this all you want after the fact but it doesn't change what has been said. As I said in my first post, not everyone likes heavily swept bars and you should probably just leave it at that. Incidentally, the OP wasn't asking about a high sweep bar.
I thought what I wrote was obvious enough for even guys like you.
Have you ever played around with backsweep and see what it does to cockpit length?
Bars sweeping back shortens the cockpit. Guys who like more backsweep many times have a 'conventional' bar too far away from them. If they were to actually ride a properly sized mtb or use a shorter stem to properly position a conventional bar, they may just start to understand why 99% of all racers and even competitive amateurs prefer a low backsweep bar. They seek higher backsweep as a bandaid for fit. I will give you an analogy because you still may not get it. Many complain about a drop bar on a road bike. Most that really understand road riding know that a drop bar is extremely comfortable...to the point where some even install a drop bar on a mtb. Why do some abandon a drop bar then? Because they were never properly fitted. The bar is either too far away or too low. Many that tour prefer drop bars. So they change to a flat bar which for the vast majority isn't as comfortable as a properly positioned drop bar which offers a variety of hand positions. Is this too complicated for you? Lastly, there is 'nobody' more vigilant about not only efficiency which translates to speed and as importantly hand health than racers who subject their bodies and hands to the most grueling conditions. Loading a high backsweep bar in rough conditions is hard on the hands. This is my experience. Racers race what they do...again a convention...not unlike drop bars on a road bike...for a reason.
What is kind of funny is how clumsy you word your last sentence. You completely miss the point. Sorry to correct you again but will rewrite your sentence properly. It should read: Very few riders and virtual no top riders prefer a mtb handlebar with a lot of sweep. which is precisely my point even though you convolute it. Your statement is incorrect. The reality isn't about "not everybody" liking a high backsweep bar. The truth is MOST don't like a high backsweep bar and that is why a low backsweep bar on a mtb is a convention. Most prefer it. I know these are hard concepts for you to grasp by your continued misundertanding.
Last edited by dirtrider7; 12-24-2010 at 12:05 PM.
I remember the first thread where you brought this up and everyone else disagreed then too.
My point in that thread and this one was this:
Sweep must match fore/aft bar position is the point and a lower backsweep promotes the bar to rest more in the root of the fingers across the palm away from the guyon's canal which is what you want to stay away from when pressurizing the hands off road.
If you set up a big sweeping bar correctly it will not pressuize the guyun's canal or your ulnar nerve. thats all.
I remember the first thread where you brought this up and everyone else disagreed then too.
My point in that thread and this one was this:
If you set up a big sweeping bar correctly it will not pressuize the guyun's canal or your ulnar nerve. thats all.
That's wrong too. Pointing a big sweep bar downward...what you are referring too, does not address handle encroachment toward the outboard base of the wrist.
Have fun boys. Enjoy those big sweep bars.
For the more thoughtful, if you have a big sweep bar on your bike and your hands/wrists start to hurt at the outboard base of your wrists...beware.
Reversing ulnar nerve damage takes a long time to heal. I speak from experience.
Merry Christmas...I am out.
PS: OP...if you follow what I wrote, there is a reason why it is not easy to find a 12 degree backsweep bar for your mtb and you will be happier without one if you properly position your handlebar.
Yeah and I'm sure there are all kinds of riders out there that could ride a bike with an "imporperly set-up", big sweep handlebar that caused them all kinds of pain that could still kick dirtrider's a$$ anyday on any bike, but i guess they'd still be doing it "wrong", huh?
"I don't believe in brakes, all they do is slow you down"
That's wrong too. Pointing a big sweep bar downward...what you are referring too, does not address handle encroachment toward the outboard base of the wrist.
Have fun boys. Enjoy those big sweep bars.
For the more thoughtful, if you have a big sweep bar on your bike and your hands/wrists start to hurt at the outboard base of your wrists...beware.
Reversing ulnar nerve damage takes a long time to heal. I speak from experience.
Merry Christmas...I am out.
PS: OP...if you follow what I wrote, there is a reason why it is not easy to find a 12 degree backsweep bar for your mtb and you will be happier without one if you properly position your handlebar.
Dirtrider,
You need to strengthen up your core. With a stronger core, you'd be leaning less on the handlebars and having less trouble with your wrists. Dont blame the equipment.
so you think that because a bunch of guys that work for a bike company wouldn't naturally swear by the product they make? You think even if they didn't, they would endorse a competitor? Riiiiiiiiight........ the racers run Salsa bars anyway with the decals taped up.
I love how a discussion of handlebar sweep can get so personal and involve engineering school. This is a great website. I like the Salsa 17 degree sweep because,,,,,well just because. It also is a really convenient place for my brake levers to attach too!
uh, durr....
so you think that because a bunch of guys that work for a bike company wouldn't naturally swear by the product they make? You think even if they didn't, they would endorse a competitor? Riiiiiiiiight........ the racers run Salsa bars anyway with the decals taped up.
and what do you use to clean the sand out of your vagina? salsa as well?
Same here. I love this bar. It's super strong and yet much more forgiving than the Easton bar it replaced. The sweep and width are perfect for me.
Yeah, but this bar seems impossible to find in the USA
To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle. -- Confucius
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I picked up a very slightly used bar off ebay for $70 shipped.
I see, thanks. For some reason I am hesitant to buy used carbon bars. I might have to though, the 2 bars I am interested in seem to be OOS everywhere. The Syntace and the ENVE.
To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle. -- Confucius
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Come join me at the Swamp
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Originally Posted by 6thElement
