is a single pivot full suspension worth it?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    is a single pivot full suspension worth it?

    basically its time for me to get a new bike, i'm in over my head in repairs for my current XC hardtail. race season is starting and i dont have the time or money to buy a "nice" full suspension.
    the bike im thinking of is the daimondback atroz 2, which comes in at $1000 USD and offers somewhat modern geometry for one price, having a single pivot suspension system in the rear. so my main question is, do single pivot suspension bikes climb, jump, and ride well? i'll be racing XC but in the meantime i usually stay on the downhill tech and jump lines at the local park.

    for those wondering about my hardtail, here is a list of things that i'd need to fix/replace.

    front 2x chainring
    rear derailleur+hanger
    fork bushings (if they even make them for my fork)
    bottom bracket bearings (they creak)
    and the headset bearings are also probably done, haven't looked at em.

    for reference i do take my bike to a shop regularly, so i'm already $300 into this bike, but its getting to expensive for me to repair it.

    the other option is that i race my road bike after putting mountain tires on it.
    If You didn't start on a Hardtail you're doing it Wrong

  2. #2
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    It's $1000, not $100, right?
    If it's $100, but 10 of them!
    Many of us started out on single pivot, so they can be good.

  3. #3
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    https://www.jensonusa.com/Jamis-Drag...o-26-Bike-2018
    This would make a nice do it all bike that would be worth continuing to fix and keep running for a long time.

  4. #4
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    There are two schools of thought here.

    You can analyze different suspension designs to death, and maybe end up with something that is technically superior and be able to shave some milliseconds off your times.

    Or you can buy a decent bike and learn how to ride it, dealing with its quirks; which all bikes have.

    I fall into the latter camp. Not saying there aren't better designs. That bike will likely be heavy for XC racing.
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  5. #5
    high pivot witchcraft
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSU Alum View Post
    ...Many of us started out on single pivot, so they can be good.
    And many of us have continued on them. And even prefer them.

    The absolute ultimate for me is a high single pivot, although there is nothing out there that is available in the OP's price range (a frame alone will cost multiples of his $1000 target cost).

    With respect to the OP, we don't have a lot of useful info to be able to assist. How old are you, OP? How long have you been riding? Where are you riding and how would you describe the terrain?

    Regardless, it sounds like he wants one bike that will be used for everything from XC racing all the way to park. I suspect it's going to be challenging to find anything that is going to remotely come close to checking all the boxes at those extreme ends of the riding spectrum, regardless of linkage/suspension design, and regardless of cost (let alone a full bike cost of $1000).

    I suspect it's going to be near impossible to find anything, given those two parameters (extreme range of riding conditions/uses, and price point). That said, at least many single pivot designs will come in at the bottom of the cost range, relative to VPP, DW Link, etc. (it should go without saying that not all single pivot designs are going to be equal in terms of execution on the trail).

    Personally, I think he needs to either pick a riding preference/focus and accept the compromise (recognizing that something built for XC racing will obviously not be optimal at the park, and vice versa) or buy multiple bikes (likely used).

    I looked quickly at the Diamondback he referenced. I know nothing of the brand but to me, it looks like a heavy, 100mm bike with (understandably) entry level components, and a 72.5 STA. I did not dig too deeply on this, nor do I have time to comment further as I now have to commute to work on my beloved Unit. Woohoo!!!

    TL; DR:

    Good luck OP. Realistically, I think you are facing a formidable challenge given your price point and "one bike for all" intentions. The said, I personally love a well executed single pivot design (e.g.; a Kona Process), especially since the advent of the 1x drivetrain. For me and the terrain I ride, a good single pivot design is much preferred over anything I have owned or ridden (e.g. rented in Moab, Sedona, etc.) with a VPP, Horst link, DW Link, and other multi-pivot linkage designs. All that said, everyone is different, and I suspect I am in the minority on this.
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  6. #6
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    That bike wouldnt be good for anything you want to do, its not so much that its a single pivot but because its just a low end full suspension. At that budget you need a used bike, $1000 is plenty to get a really nice used bike that is better in every way to the Diamondback.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MillerC View Post
    https://www.jensonusa.com/Jamis-Drag...o-26-Bike-2018
    This would make a nice do it all bike that would be worth continuing to fix and keep running for a long time.
    it probably would, but i will probably never get another xc hardtail. if i did it'd be solely for racing, which isn't cost effective. the other reason im upgrading is to not have a more capable bike than a hardtail
    If You didn't start on a Hardtail you're doing it Wrong

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Granny_Gear View Post
    it probably would, but i will probably never get another xc hardtail. if i did it'd be solely for racing, which isn't cost effective. the other reason im upgrading is to not have a more capable bike than a hardtail
    Trailbikes with fast tires and a good cockpit setup are just as good as XC bikes for non-pros.

    Below a certain pricepoint the bike represents a worse value

    A well-optimized single pivot with a good shock is competitive at the highest levels of the sport. But that has nothing to do with your real question.
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  9. #9
    g=9.764m/s2
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    Oh, your price point is closer to 1k? Then there is this one, https://www.bikesonline.com/2020-pol...on-mountain-bi...

  10. #10
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    I ride an Orange Stage 4.

    The frame alone cost more than what the OP wants to spend, but my point is that it does everything just as well as my buddies modern XC race bikes.

    I think the Diamonback is very similar to the Orange.

    I say go for it and enjoy it.

    Single pivot bikes climb good and have a very poppy feel to them that a lot of people enjoy.
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  11. #11
    Rod
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    I may be in the minority, but I think the OP needs to learn how to wrench on his bike. If not, this bike will be in the same condition as his current one. Find someone that maintains their own bikes, watch youtube, park tool, or go old school and read.

    I haven't looked at the diamondback, but I do know other brands use less than ideal parts on low end bikes. Make sure it uses a hg hub and the cassette doesn't screw on, the shifters and brake levers aren't one unit, etc.

    Edit: I say buy used with your budget and find a bike that is lightly used. Learn how to wrench on your current build while you continue looking. Get parts off swap meets, ebay, facebook, etc.

  12. #12
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    How would you race your road bike with mtb tires? What kind of road bike do you have that would accept a mtb tire?


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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zerort View Post
    I ride an Orange Stage 4.

    Single pivot bikes climb good and have a very poppy feel to them that a lot of people enjoy.
    That tends to be true, but it's not really inherently true of single pivots. It's just that packaging a full size run means that the suspension design is constrained so that's so.

    Really with a single pivot all you can assume is that it's probably going to have a fairly 'normal' axle path and high-ish brake squat... and even then there's tons of exceptions.

    imo 'single pivot' is a trivial piece of information, without context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rod View Post
    I may be in the minority, but I think the OP needs to learn how to wrench on his bike.
    Absolutely!

    ...but he's talking about putting mtb tires on his road bike. I figured he was better served not opening that can of.. bite off what you can chew.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  14. #14
    Rod
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    That tends to be true, but it's not really inherently true of single pivots. It's just that packaging a full size run means that the suspension design is constrained so that's so.

    Absolutely!

    ...but he's talking about putting mtb tires on his road bike. I figured he was better served not opening that can of.. bite off what you can chew.
    Oh wow! I missed that.

    Unless he has a gravel bike that can fit 2.0 tires he has a long learning curve ahead of him.

    My bike won't take a much bigger tire than a 23c. A 25 may fit. I'm sure a 28 wouldn't.

  15. #15
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    Donít let the orange bike riders fool you, just say no to single pivot.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smackem View Post
    Donít let the orange bike riders fool you, just say no to single pivot.
    This is a joke right?

    You do realize a lot of bikes are single pivot - Evil bikes for one among others.

    I just had my Orange powder coated. The 2 new bearings were installed in about 4 minutes. Go ahead and try that with some other bikes.

    Orange has been around for how long? If their bikes were shite, they would have went out of business long ago.

    Pretty successful on the racing front too.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smackem View Post
    Donít let the orange bike riders fool you, just say no to single pivot.
    which one of these is a single pivot?
    is a single pivot full suspension worth it?-stw-merida-140-56-640x427.jpg
    is a single pivot full suspension worth it?-commencal-supreme-dh-v4-1.jpg
    is a single pivot full suspension worth it?-evil-wreckoning-frame-blue-3.jpg
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  18. #18
    Trail Ninja
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    Answer: all of the above.

    Marin's offering great value with their single pivot FS bikes, like their Alpine Trail, competing well with other linkage-style bikes, offering a more solid component package at any given price point.

    This NS Nerd HD looks like a great value. Euro riders are lucky to have that available.

    People who suggest single pivot is obsolete have been misinformed. Tell me the reasons why you think so, and I'll debunk them.

    Fully active under braking? That's misleading marketing. I'll accept it if it says that the suspension is more independent from braking forces, but I can only name a few that truly qualify for this: Liteville, Knolly, and those with floating brake setups. FSR and ABP (which is a single pivot) sit in between these, and a vast majority of dual mini-links and single pivots, in terms of independent susp/braking action. Some horst links have indistinguishable susp/brake independence compared to single pivots, like the GG Freedom link, 2020 RM Slayer, and most others with a vertically or forward-slash aligned (e.g. Fezzari Wire Peak) upper link. Some DH champions who have tested floating brakes have outright preferred more brake squat (going without the floating brake device), over independent action; I got the impression that they preferred stability and geometry preservation over extra monkey motion. What bikes like the Liteville have is their ability to retain more of a bike's natural inclination rotate forward, as expected under braking due to the rider's inertia still traveling forward, which aids them in doing what I call a "Euro nose pivot", but what others may consider a scary almost-OTB moment.

    What else? I'm still surprised this is a question. I thought this dead horse was beat 12 feet under, back in 2010-2015.

    P.S. That Diamondback is "entry-level" tier, meaning it's disposable and has tremendous room for improvement. It's meant for people who lack commitment, as a stepping stone (which I judge as being wasteful). Their parts are made so cheaply, it's no wonder that they break down so often. If you want new, $2500 is around the threshold where you get something you can settle long term on. If you want to spend DB Atroz money, shop used, please, for the sake of countering throw-away culture.
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  19. #19
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    I ride an Evil Calling... a single pivot with a great linkage design by the grand master of suspenion design DW himself. I used to think single pivots were junk until I rode an Evil. That idea was based on decades old test rides and over complicated bikes. Now that just about everyone has ditched designing around front derailleurs... every bike seems to be WAY better at everything.

    New anything at $1000 is a hard price point... you aren't going to get everything you want period. At that price point, I would try and find a quality used bike you like the feel of.
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  20. #20
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    Everything that is not a single pivot is total shit.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Everything that is not a single pivot is total shit.
    But for more info

    Back in the day, the industry had no idea what they were doing with linkages. ALL bikes bobbed like crazy. It was pretty weird. <80% A/S wasnt unusual. Or CRAZY high anti squat that rode like a dump truck. We just didnt have it figured out.

    So in comes santa cruz and DW, but really mostly DW. DW makes a linkage with an appropriate amount of anti squat that actually pedaled well. The marketing put extreme emphasis on the lower virtual link... it really wasnt JUST the virtual link, but it didnt matter. The end result was that these new magical linkage bikes truly did pedal way way better than the crusty old single pivots. They did something kind of wonky in the air, but who cares. The pedal performance won out.

    The other weird thing was how popular the fox RP23 was. Honestly, the RP23 was a terrible shock that had no low speed damping and wallowed all over the place. The DW linkage was a massive bandaid that covered up the RP23's flaws. Using a shock that worked also fixed the "problem", but the rp23 was so prolific that again, it didnt matter.

    ... but then single pivot bikes got dialed. Anti squat passed 100% without going nuts. Appropriate shock rates and upper linkages were installed on single pivot bikes, making them strong, reliable, fun to ride, and most importantly they pedaled just as well and often better than multi link/vpp/dw/mini link bikes.

    DW went to a single pivot along with a lot of the industry, just with the incorporation of upper links. They're still single pivots, based on a single moveable part between the bottom bracket and dropout.

    Try for yourself. I think SP bikes are a lot more fun in the air. Now that they pedal, its a win win. Everything thats not a SP sucks!

  22. #22
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    This is exactly right.
    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    But for more info

    Back in the day, the industry had no idea what they were doing with linkages. ALL bikes bobbed like crazy. It was pretty weird. <80% A/S wasnt unusual. Or CRAZY high anti squat that rode like a dump truck. We just didnt have it figured out.

    So in comes santa cruz and DW, but really mostly DW. DW makes a linkage with an appropriate amount of anti squat that actually pedaled well. The marketing put extreme emphasis on the lower virtual link... it really wasnt JUST the virtual link, but it didnt matter. The end result was that these new magical linkage bikes truly did pedal way way better than the crusty old single pivots. They did something kind of wonky in the air, but who cares. The pedal performance won out.

    The other weird thing was how popular the fox RP23 was. Honestly, the RP23 was a terrible shock that had no low speed damping and wallowed all over the place. The DW linkage was a massive bandaid that covered up the RP23's flaws. Using a shock that worked also fixed the "problem", but the rp23 was so prolific that again, it didnt matter.

    ... but then single pivot bikes got dialed. Anti squat passed 100% without going nuts. Appropriate shock rates and upper linkages were installed on single pivot bikes, making them strong, reliable, fun to ride, and most importantly they pedaled just as well and often better than multi link/vpp/dw/mini link bikes.

    DW went to a single pivot along with a lot of the industry, just with the incorporation of upper links. They're still single pivots, based on a single moveable part between the bottom bracket and dropout.

    Try for yourself. I think SP bikes are a lot more fun in the air. Now that they pedal, its a win win. Everything thats not a SP sucks!

    tl;dr- single pivots are maligned because the first really good FS linkages were multilink. Not because multilink is inherently superior.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  23. #23
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    Those are linkage driven single pivot. Orange is single pivot.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smackem View Post
    Those are linkage driven single pivot. Orange is single pivot.
    potato potato. (although you didn't originally specify no linkage)

    Orange has opted for kinematics that don't require an extra link. Their leverage rate tends to be fairly flat, but not out of the realm of normal. It won't conceal a shitty shock like a YT might, and it's not ideal for huckers, but there are advantages as well. Especially paired with a high end air shock.


    If a designer isn't constrained by having to build a full size run (custom), it's easy to build a rising rate single pivot w/o a link.




    If you want to restrict your opinion to "production single pivots with no links don't match my budget and/or riding style." That's a reasonable position. Or that oranges are fugly.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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