Results 1 to 34 of 34
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    169

    Santa Cruz Heckler = 96?

    Anyone done this? Anyone heard of it?

    I'm currently riding a Santa Cruz Superlight. Love the bike, but am now at 200 lbs and want something uh..."beefier". I love the beauty of a single pivot design...so the Heckler is a natural choice.

    ....and then I rode my friends Gary Fisher Hi-Fi Pro 29er. Very nice. Rolled over everything. The worst part... he was freaking keeping up with me (he never has, EVER). So, I debated getting this full 29er hi-fi, but I like to ride a little aggressive and this is where the Heckler excels (overbuilt).

    Bottom line, can I get the best of both worlds by throwing a 29 fork and wheel up front on the Heckler? If so, fork recommendations?

    Thanks

    Jory
    Last edited by Jory; 01-21-2008 at 08:39 AM.

  2. #2
    TNC
    TNC is offline
    noMAD man
    Reputation: TNC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,059
    There really only seem to be about 3 logical choices at the moment for longer travel 29'er forks IMO...Maverick DUC32 w/reduced travel, the Manitou 29'er, and the White Bros. model. These forks have about 4.5" to nearly 5" of travel. However, you'd better do some careful calculations on how your head angle will be effected. The Manitou and WB forks will jack it up fairly high. The DUC32 has one of the lowest axle-to-crown heights to start with for a 6" fork, and it probably raises the front end of any bike the least amount.

    All 3 of these forks seem to be excellent forks. There are some pretty good reviews on all of them on the 29'er forum. The Manitou has surprisingly good performance for a fork at its price. The DUC and WB forks are extremely expensive. Rainman on the 29'er forum did an extensive test on the WB and Mantiou 29'er forks, and others like JNC chimed in with their experiences. It's a good source if you're looking for some real world test results and tuning.

    I ran a 69'er Maverick ML8 with a reduced travel DUC32 that you may have seen mentioned awhile back. It worked quite well, but I am not happy with the reduced travel...4.5". The ML8 has 6.5" in the rear, and the 29'er front wheel only goes so far in making up that differential. A 29'er front wheel does seem to corner like a slot car, there are rolling advantages, and cresting technical pitchups on the trail seem easier.

    I went a different route and installed one of those 650B front wheel/tire setups on my Nomad and also tested it on that ML8. You can still run your long travel fork but also get the tallest front wheel/tire setup you can safely stuff in many of the available long travel forks. It's about like running a Michelin DH32 tire in the 2.8 size into your fork as far as rolling size and quality is concerned...but with the weight of a light trail tire and light wheel. My 650B wheel and tire weighed just a bit less than my CrossMax front wheel and Weirwolf Race non-UST tire...very light.

    Off the top of my head, I'd bet you could successfully run a DUC32/29'er on the front of the new Heckler without killing the geometry. It would be an expensive proposition. Read some of the posts on the 69'er/650B forum to get a feel of the options available and the results from those that have tried them. Both Derby and I have recently done the 650B front setup with very good results. I like long travel bikes, and the full 29'er setup didn't allow that for me. I also have a hard time accelerating full 29'ers that we've tried through our shop. Your results may vary. Some love full 29'ers and some don't. People are different, so there's no surprise there. Here's a pic of a 650B and 26'er next to each other.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    169
    TNC -

    Thanks for the great input, I really appreciate it.

    I didn't really think of the long travel ramifications (still have my superlight mindset). I was thinking of the Fox 32 F29 - but I see that's only 100mm. I suppose a Heckler would need a minimum of 125mm to even come close to feeling balanced?

    Thanks again.

  4. #4
    TNC
    TNC is offline
    noMAD man
    Reputation: TNC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,059
    Yeah, that's the bugaboo of the full suspension 29'er and the long travel 69'er IMO. The physical and geometry limitations and effects can get weird in some cases. When you get into the travel range of bikes like the Heckler, Nomad, etc., you have to make compromises to get 29'er wheels on the front. The beauty of the 650B concept is that it fits within the parameters of many bike frames and suspension components that are already available. With a Heckler with the right front fork, you can have longer travel and get the advantage of the tallest possible wheel/tire possible.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    169
    Beautiful - never even considered the 650B option - At the point I don't need a 29er specific fork???

  6. #6
    TNC
    TNC is offline
    noMAD man
    Reputation: TNC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,059
    Depends on the fork. Some allow safe use of the 650B without any issue. I know for a fact that the Maverick forks, Manitou Nixon 160, and Fox Van 36 will do so. There are others if you read the posts on this issue.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MMcG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    9,591
    I would recommend a 100mm 29er fork for a 69er Heckler. A 100mm and a 29" wheel will give you what you need for front suspsension.

    The other otion as mentioned would be to go with something like a Fox fork and run a 650b front wheel on it.

    Regarding going Full Suspension 29er - they tend to have really long chainstays - with the exception being the very pricey Lenzsport Behemoth. So you wouldn't have as easy a time wheelie dropping, manualling etc. as you would with a 26" FS frame. And also it seems that with some models - those longer chainstays also add a little bit of flexiness to the feel of the rear end on a FS 29er (I've heard these comments about certain fisher FS bikes, and the Intense Spider to name a couple.

    If this is a completely new set up - you might want to look into a few of the frames that Crackedheadtube has featured as great candidates for dual 650b applications over at www.650bpalace.blogspot.com

  8. #8
    www.derbyrims.com
    Reputation: derby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,764
    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    Depends on the fork. Some allow safe use of the 650B without any issue. I know for a fact that the Maverick forks, Manitou Nixon 160, and Fox Van 36 will do so. There are others if you read the posts on this issue.
    Iíll add to TNCís wise words now after putting a 650b front wheel on my 5.5 in travel bike (Mojo). The bigger diameter wheel with no significant added weight feels like adding1/2 inch of travel, and rolls noticeably easier over sharp rocks up and downhill than the 26 wheel.

    I havenít ridden a 96 but Iíve heard that 29 inch wheel feels like adding 1 inch of travel. And rolling rocks is probably even easier than the 650b over the 26 wheel.

    With the Hecklerís 5.5 inch rear travel and using the F29 fork youíd maintain nearly the same steering geometry as using a 140mm travel fork and have a pretty good feel of suspension compression balance even with 1.5 inches less travel in front using a 29 wheel in front. Youíd have less brake dive and roll as if having 130mm fork suspension. So it might be only produce some gains at lower speeds rolling over sharp rocks.

    Keeping your current fork and using a 650b would have similar suspension balance feel possibly even smoother than a 96 conversion since youíd still have the 140 fork and added 650b rolling improvement. And done without the cost of the F29 fork.

  9. #9
    conjoinicorned
    Reputation: ferday's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,525
    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    Iíll add to TNCís wise words now after putting a 650b front wheel on my 5.5 in travel bike (Mojo). The bigger diameter wheel with no significant added weight feels like adding1/2 inch of travel, and rolls noticeably easier over sharp rocks up and downhill than the 26 wheel.

    I havenít ridden a 96 but Iíve heard that 29 inch wheel feels like adding 1 inch of travel. And rolling rocks is probably even easier than the 650b over the 26 wheel.

    With the Hecklerís 5.5 inch rear travel and using the F29 fork youíd maintain nearly the same steering geometry as using a 140mm travel fork and have a pretty good feel of suspension compression balance even with 1.5 inches less travel in front using a 29 wheel in front. Youíd have less brake dive and roll as if having 130mm fork suspension. So it might be only produce some gains at lower speeds rolling over sharp rocks.

    Keeping your current fork and using a 650b would have similar suspension balance feel possibly even smoother than a 96 conversion since youíd still have the 140 fork and added 650b rolling improvement. And done without the cost of the F29 fork.

    i'll add to both derby and TNC ...

    i'm not a big believer in 69, i think there is just too much size difference between the wheels (from experience, and i'm a 29er fanatic). however, the new 650b makes wicked sense either as a 27.5/26 or 29/27.5. on the heckler, i'd personally stick with a 650b up front so you can keep the travel and geometry where it should be for an aggressive trailbike.

    for a true XC rig, the 69er might work ok...but 29/27.5 seems like the holy grail IMO
    what would rainbow unicorn do?

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MMcG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    9,591
    Quote Originally Posted by ferday
    i'll add to both derby and TNC ...

    i'm not a big believer in 69, i think there is just too much size difference between the wheels (from experience, and i'm a 29er fanatic). however, the new 650b makes wicked sense either as a 27.5/26 or 29/27.5. on the heckler, i'd personally stick with a 650b up front so you can keep the travel and geometry where it should be for an aggressive trailbike.

    for a true XC rig, the 69er might work ok...but 29/27.5 seems like the holy grail IMO
    I have a Carver Bumblebee in for riding and testing and writeup for www.ridemonkey.com and the 29/27.5 is a mighty nice combo for an XC hardtail. I prefer it over a 69er hardtail and I've experimented a lot.


  11. #11
    conjoinicorned
    Reputation: ferday's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,525
    Quote Originally Posted by MMcG
    I have a Carver Bumblebee in for riding and testing and writeup for www.ridemonkey.com and the 29/27.5 is a mighty nice combo for an XC hardtail. I prefer it over a 69er hardtail and I've experimented a lot.


    i love that rig MMcG, i'm eagerly awaiting a full ride report!
    what would rainbow unicorn do?

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    169
    Great info - Thanks to everyone. Great replies.

    So....according to MMcG - it appears that perhaps running the Fox F29 (100mm) along with a 29" wheel wouldn't dork up the geometry too bad and having that 29" wheel may give me that "extra inch" of travel up front?

    So...

    Heckler + F29 (100mm) + 29" wheel = Good???

  13. #13
    Mr.650b - Mr.27-5
    Reputation: Kirk Pacenti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,630
    Quote Originally Posted by Jory
    Great info - Thanks to everyone. Great replies.

    So....according to MMcG - it appears that perhaps running the Fox F29 (100mm) along with a 29" wheel wouldn't dork up the geometry too bad and having that 29" wheel may give me that "extra inch" of travel up front?

    So...

    Heckler + F29 (100mm) + 29" wheel = Good???

    The 29" wheel will buy you a lot, and you could probably get away with a little less travel. But putting a 100mm fork on a bike with130-150mm rear travel would likely feel unbalanced front to rear.
    Last edited by Kirk Pacenti; 01-21-2008 at 12:46 PM.

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    169
    Thanks Kirk -

    Now for a really stupid question - - - would a 650B fit on the back of the Heckler? (Don't shoot me)

  15. #15
    Mr.650b - Mr.27-5
    Reputation: Kirk Pacenti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,630
    Quote Originally Posted by Jory
    Thanks Kirk -

    Now for a really stupid question - - - would a 650B fit on the back of the Heckler? (Don't shoot me)

    the best I can say is "maybe". You'd have to figure out a way to reduce the rear wheel travel first.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?...16&postcount=8

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    169
    Kirk -

    Sent you a PM to discuss further.

  17. #17
    conjoinicorned
    Reputation: ferday's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,525
    do as you will....i really think you are going the wrong direction by putting a 29er on the front of a heckler.

    the 650b will fit in the back with a shortened shock. you can do this with a custom shock, a tuned shock (maybe push can do it, apparently the new rockshocks), or build a custom shuttle (some people have done with foes bikes).

    have fun anyways and post pics!
    what would rainbow unicorn do?

  18. #18
    Mr.650b - Mr.27-5
    Reputation: Kirk Pacenti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,630
    Quote Originally Posted by ferday
    do as you will....i really think you are going the wrong direction by putting a 29er on the front of a heckler.

    the 650b will fit in the back with a shortened shock. you can do this with a custom shock, a tuned shock (maybe push can do it, apparently the new rockshocks), or build a custom shuttle (some people have done with foes bikes).

    have fun anyways and post pics!
    Just to be clear, the shock must be the same length as the bike was designed for. It's the stroke that must be shortened... though I am sure that is what you meant.

    I have not tried them, but I know Cane Creek builds custom Cloud 9 shocks pretty regularly as does Risse. Anyone here have experience with these shocks? The reviews are good but don't give too much info.

    http://www.mtbr.com/reviews/Rear_Sho...ct_87274.shtml

    http://www.mtbr.com/reviews/Rear_Sho...ct_22549.shtml

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    169
    Ferday -

    Spent a good 30 minutes talking to Kirk - you two are definitly on the same page. Both of you agree that 29 on the front of the Heckler is a bad move. His recommendation seems to be 650b's front and back - if I can get the correct rear shock to accomodate it.

    Worst case, it seems that keep the 26 on the rear of the Heckler and put a 650b on the front w/ a fox fork (decrease the delta between that of a 26 - 29 combo).

  20. #20
    Mr.650b - Mr.27-5
    Reputation: Kirk Pacenti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,630
    Quote Originally Posted by Jory
    Ferday -

    Spent a good 30 minutes talking to Kirk - you two are definitly on the same page. Both of you agree that 29 on the front of the Heckler is a bad move. His recommendation seems to be 650b's front and back - if I can get the correct rear shock to accomodate it.

    Worst case, it seems that keep the 26 on the rear of the Heckler and put a 650b on the front w/ a fox fork.
    Jory,

    It was good chatting with you.

    For the MTBR public record: I did not recommend the Fox fork. I support Fox's position concerning the use of their forks with untested (by Fox) wheel sizes.

    I would go with the 650B specific White Brothers Fluid 130 or the Manitou Nixon... or maybe even the X-Fusion Velvet R 130mm. I will be testing all of these forks soon and will report back when I have a better idea of what works best.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    169
    Yes - the Fox fork was/is my idea since I can quickly get my hands on one. I understand it's not endorsed by Fox

    Bottom line: 650B seems to be the sweetspot for a longer travel full suspension bike. I'm hopeful, I can make both wheels work.

  22. #22
    Mr.650b - Mr.27-5
    Reputation: Kirk Pacenti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,630
    Quote Originally Posted by Jory
    Yes - the Fox fork was/is my idea since I can quickly get my hands on one. I understand it's not endorsed by Fox

    Bottom line: 650B seems to be the sweetspot for a longer travel full suspension bike. I'm hopeful, I can make both wheels work.
    Hopefully I will know more about the RS Pearl rear shock soon.

    I am very tempted to try the Cane Creek Cloud 9 too. I have only heard good things about this shock and I know they do custom builds... might be worth looking into Jory.

  23. #23
    TNC
    TNC is offline
    noMAD man
    Reputation: TNC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,059
    Kirk, I've run Cloud 9's on a Superlight, a light trail Bullit, and that 2000 Spec Big Hit Enduro with the Risse rear end you and I talked about. My take is that they work extremely well for non-linkage bikes and/or medium travel bikes, not too much over 5". After that they don't seem to have a sophisticated enough compression circuit to deal with it adequately. It's an all air damped unit...no oil. They almost work better than they have any business to, if you open one up and inspect them...simple, simple, simple. I'm even running an old Cane Creek AD12 on that Enduro at the moment, as I've changed up the suspension on that bike. They're amazingly effective for what they are, and you can rebuild one at the kitchen table.

  24. #24
    Mr.650b - Mr.27-5
    Reputation: Kirk Pacenti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,630
    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    Kirk, I've run Cloud 9's on a Superlight, a light trail Bullit, and that 2000 Spec Big Hit Enduro with the Risse rear end you and I talked about. My take is that they work extremely well for non-linkage bikes and/or medium travel bikes, not too much over 5". After that they don't seem to have a sophisticated enough compression circuit to deal with it adequately. It's an all air damped unit...no oil. They almost work better than they have any business to, if you open one up and inspect them...simple, simple, simple. I'm even running an old Cane Creek AD12 on that Enduro at the moment, as I've changed up the suspension on that bike. They're amazingly effective for what they are, and you can rebuild one at the kitchen table.

    This is very good news... If we get the Heckler down to 120mm of travel, it would (should) solve any tire / frame interference problems. It sounds like it would be well within the travel range to get decent performance out of the shock for a single pivot bike like the Heckler...

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    27
    Here you go. A buddy of mine and I are building this up. The fork is off of a hardtail experiment that sucked monkeys. We set the fork up for 29 w/the Maverick kit. Fork came off this bike initially, and we're waiting for brakes to come in on friday 1/25. I keep laughing b/c it rides really cool around the shop. Just a little bit of wheel "flop" but barely detectable. The kenda measures out at 29"(suprise) which if we did our redneck math right, works out to be a 1/2 a degree slacker.(give or take a few degrees) The wheel height measures out a 26.5 tall. So we'll give it a whirl this weekend and see what happens.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  26. #26
    HTFU and Ride
    Reputation: coachjon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    1,216
    Looks SICK!
    Winter is coming.

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    27
    Is that sick good, or sick bad? 'Cause I think it looks better in the photo than it does close up.

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MMcG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    9,591
    It doesn't look bad at all, but I agree perhaps a 26/650b combo would be a little more in proportion if you will - especially since perhaps it would only require the purchase of a new front wheel rather than splurging for a 29er wheel and 29er fork.

    For example if you bought a stock Heckler spec'd with a Fox (I know I know) you could have all of the travel and slightly better roll over capacity with a 650b in front. See derby's Ibis Mojo as an example.

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    169
    Thanks for the input and great picture.

    I'll standby for the test ride of your Heckler - love the Gray color of that frame. I'm leaning more and more toward a 650B front end and then figuring out how to shorten the shock stroke to accomodate another 650B on the rear.

    Again, let me know how that heckler rides!

    Jory

  30. #30
    mnt bike laws of physics
    Reputation: yogiprophet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2,639
    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    There really only seem to be about 3 logical choices at the moment for longer travel 29'er forks IMO...Maverick DUC32 w/reduced travel, the Manitou 29'er, and the White Bros. model. These forks have about 4.5" to nearly 5" of travel. However, you'd better do some careful calculations on how your head angle will be effected. The Manitou and WB forks will jack it up fairly high. The DUC32 has one of the lowest axle-to-crown heights to start with for a 6" fork, and it probably raises the front end of any bike the least amount.

    TNC, do you happen to know the rake of the DUC32? I am looking at future options. I think the Fox 29 G2 will be available next year and its rake is (I believe)52mm. We need more fork options with longer rakes.

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    201
    BUMP!
    Just curious if this bike ever was ridden?

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    169
    Oh yeah - as a 650B. http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=392317

    Blunt didn't work out too well (as tubeless). Wheel is on it's way back from Stan's. Hope to have it tomorrow and continue riding.

    In the 75 or so miles I put on it - incredible. Stable, rolls over everything and the 26 in the rear keeps it able to accelerate quickly. No compromise at all!.

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MMcG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    9,591
    Quote Originally Posted by yogiprophet
    TNC, do you happen to know the rake of the DUC32? I am looking at future options. I think the Fox 29 G2 will be available next year and its rake is (I believe)52mm. We need more fork options with longer rakes.

    51mm of offset for the OEM G2 Fox 29ers.

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    201
    Thanks,
    Beautiful bike.

    Picking up my 650B front wheel tomorrow.

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2019 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.