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Thread: Moto-b Mojo

  1. #1
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    Moto-b Mojo

    Moto-b Mojo

    Well this was really run to ride the first time!

    Replaced was a front 26inch DT Swiss 5.1d rim with MutanoRaptor 2.4, matching the same rear wheel, with a 650b Velocity Blunt rim with Pacenti Neo-Moto 2.35. The Bunt rim outer diameter is 1 inch larger, the tire diameter is 3/4 inch larger raising the front axle 3/8 inch. I raised my seat 1/8 inch and added a turn a preload to regain within 1/8 inch of the same handlebar to seat level front to real. The tire mounted easily tubeless with Stans rim stip and sealant and held air the whole first ride. A little tweaking of the seat forward about ľ inch would regain the same seated climbing balance over the cranks.

    The steering is a bit floppy now in tight switchbacks having a little longer steering trail and higher center but not bad at all. It feels like a bigger bike and even more all-mountain, more pedaling clearance, more stable. Handling is sort of almost half way between a Mojo and 6Point.

    It really rolls nicely. I was surprised the Pacenti tire has absolutely no stutter feel rolling on the street to the trailhead, smooth as glass.

    Rolling on the trail was like gaining about Ĺ inch of travel, and even longer travel as speed increases rough and rocky or smooth and rolling. It’s noticeably smoother everywhere. It’s a nice rolling improvement that matches the always smoother rear suspension.

    Rocky chatter in the trail feels rounder. Hitting sharp steps and rock gardens are smoother and roll faster. Jump landings feel smoother.

    Cornering has more momentum, a greater sense of stability to speed more. I need more time to gain better sense of the corner traction, there’s better grip partly from a lower profile tire for less side wallow. It rails with a very upright ride position. The Pacenti tire hooks up very well and matched with the rim. The corner handling feels improved.

    Hard braking is weaker. But there’s better modulation. It’s still good but noticeably a little weaker. I could see going to an eight inch rotor in front. But I'll see how it goes as I get used to it.

    First ride impression is there’s almost all positive handling and speed improvement. I’ll need more time to see if I feel it needs less steering trail so far it feels great like a more AM handling bike like I want.

    Huge thanks! to Kirk Pacenti and the cheers! to Velocity for pioneering the 650b trail tire and rim.
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    Last edited by derby; 01-18-2008 at 10:24 PM.

  2. #2
    TNC
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    Ah ha...got it going, eh? Derby, did you have any trouble getting the tire to "jump up" on the first go-around of inflation with the DH strip? I see a big schrader valve sticking out there...LOL! That's a nice looking Ibis. I'm curious about your fenders. I notice you're from Cali. Do you have a good deal of mud where you ride? Is that a Fox RC rear shock...PUSH'd? I've got one of those as a backup for my Nomad and PUSH did wonders with it.

    Good deal, man. Keep us posted on the continued riding and feedback. Your results sound similar to mine. Did you notice any different feedback from your rear wheel and suspension? I'm leaving in the AM for 3 days of camping and riding, so the 650B is gonna get a severe workout.

  3. #3
    Mr.650b - Mr.27-5
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    Nice Bike!

    Derby,

    Great initial report. I will be very interested in hearing your impressions of the wheel size and tire performance as you get more time on the bike and have your position dialed.

    EDIT: Narrower bars should sharpen the handling a bit too.
    Last edited by Kirk Pacenti; 01-18-2008 at 11:08 AM.

  4. #4
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    You must hate chains as much as you do mud

  5. #5
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    That bike is badass!! Looks great - thanks for the first impressions report derby!! Keep us posted as you get more time on it.

    I'm dying to try one up front on my sons Soul Titan! It fits me so Dad gets to experiment with it right!?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    Ah ha...got it going, eh? Derby, did you have any trouble getting the tire to "jump up" on the first go-around of inflation with the DH strip? I see a big schrader valve sticking out there...LOL! That's a nice looking Ibis. I'm curious about your fenders. I notice you're from Cali. Do you have a good deal of mud where you ride? Is that a Fox RC rear shock...PUSH'd? I've got one of those as a backup for my Nomad and PUSH did wonders with it.

    Good deal, man. Keep us posted on the continued riding and feedback. Your results sound similar to mine. Did you notice any different feedback from your rear wheel and suspension? I'm leaving in the AM for 3 days of camping and riding, so the 650B is gonna get a severe workout.
    Answers
    The DH rim: The Stanís DH rim strip barely fit between the rim walls, it took much massaging to smooth it inside, and itís a little too big. First try to seat the rim strip failed due to too low air pressure in my air take (I refill at a gas station air pump). After filling my air tank up to 60+ psi it was easy to seat. It sealed up the initial air leaks in a few seconds just by spinning the tire slowly swirling the sealant around everywhere.

    Fenders: In normal rain years we have semi to very muddy conditions for about 1/3 of the year in Marin. I custom extended some T.H.E. downhill fenders (they are too short to really work well for mud). Iíve talked to Toby Henderson asking for some longer fenders for us mud riders. The down-tube fender is my evolution of Brown Toothís ďfugly-fenderĒ invention. Note the chain-rings are protected from front wheel spray, and Iíve extended below to also protect the chain behind. It really keeps the drivetrain much cleaner longer even in sloppy muddy rain rides. Last night the trails were nearly dried out.

    Shock and Fork: My í02 Vanilla RC, and í08 Vanilla RLC are PUSH Factory Race tuned. What a difference, especially as speed increases. I think Iíd be OK with air suspension if it was mosly rocky and sand condtions, but air stiction and preload feel is more noticeable on our packed clay. And my bike is still under 31 pounds with this coil setup (without the ~3 pounds of fenders!)

    Rear 26 wheel feel difference: No noticeable change there. The whole bike feels freer rolling.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Bob
    You must hate chains as much as you do mud
    Ya caught me! Pretty bad cross chain there in the pics, eh?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    Ya caught me! Pretty bad cross chain there in the pics, eh?
    Just jealous really. Great looking bike

  9. #9
    mnt bike laws of physics
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    Derby, Very Sweet!!! I've always loved the Mojo. If I weren't such a Cannondale nut, I would get one to replace my Prophet.

    I have a question for you. Do you think the rear end would benifit as much as the front from a tire that had a lower profile giving less "wallow" as you called it? Say from the same setup as the front?
    Or is it something that one notices more in the front end?

    The reason I ask is because the rear sees much more side forces in corners generally except mabey in tight downhill cornering.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogiprophet
    I have a question for you. Do you think the rear end would benifit as much as the front from a tire that had a lower profile giving less "wallow" as you called it? Say from the same setup as the front?
    Or is it something that one notices more in the front end?
    The moto-b style with taller front wheel and taller rear tire for near the same diameter feels well balanced in the corners the way I like to ride, braking deep into corners. The front is railing more smoothly and gripping better overall, it helps the bike to rotate. And the larger wheel is more stable. So far it feels all-good, better.

    This is just first impression, I need more time than one ride to really know. The Mojo is so well balanced in all ways with original designed geometry, maybe Iím all wrong.

  11. #11
    mnt bike laws of physics
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    Thanks Derby, looking forward to hearing more ride reports as you get aquainted with the new wheel.

  12. #12
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    How would the Mojo work as a 96er? I see most Mojos running either the 32 FLOAT or 32 TALAS in the light AM role - both roughly 511mm AtoC. A Fox F29 at 100mm runs 100mm - any adverse affects?

    To the OP - thanks for posting pics - I like to see these successful conversions.
    Happiness depends more on the inward disposition of mind than on outward circumstances. Benjamin Franklin

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenLightGo
    How would the Mojo work as a 96er? I see most Mojos running either the 32 FLOAT or 32 TALAS in the light AM role - both roughly 511mm AtoC. A Fox F29 at 100mm runs 100mm - any adverse affects?

    To the OP - thanks for posting pics - I like to see these successful conversions.
    Unless there is a really altered conversion 96 fork to drastically reduce trail, it would really screw up the Mojo steering. The Mojo starts out with 69 degrees head angle. 96ser might be not too bad handling if the head angle starts from a bike with 71 or 72 degree head angle. Also 100/140 mm front/rear travel would have a strange balance compressing corners, g-outs, and landing jumps screwing up handling even worse. I guess you could reduce rear travel with a firm shock.

    I'm using a 26 rear tire that’s 1/4 inch taller than the front tire on the B wheel. So the front axle is only about 1/4 inch higher. The steering isn't really screwed up much.

    I got to ride it a second time today. The b/26 is smoother and rolls easier hitting rocks and holes in the trail. And more confidence inspiring downhill and entering fast corners. It is much better balanced feeling landing jumps. It’s not a huge difference really but very noticeable. Uphill it’s a little slower steering and floppier if steering gets really off balance. I like the net change so far - more positives than the one small steering-while-climbing negative.

    If I had an adjustable headset to pull the front axle back about 1/8 inch maybe a little more, or better, raise the BB from the rear suspension about 1/4 inch more there would be no downside only improvement (I’ve increased preload on the rear coil to regain closer to the prior rake at sag, but it needs a little more.)

    The Pacenti Neo-Moto tire is very short for a 2.3 tire at barely 2 inches above the rim, it is the same width as my rear 2.4 Mutanoraptor (which is narrow for a 2.4) at about 2.3 inches. The Pacenti tire likes a few pounds lower air pressure than the Mutanoraptor I have on my 26 front wheel. The short Neo-Moto is more positive in direction straight ahead and in corners; it doesn’t side-slip as easily. The balance of grip is better.

    Not much more to say I guess. I’ll be riding the Mojo this way for awhile, I don’t see a big reason to go back except to try the feel of the 26 front again. I really like style from the side view – moto-b/26!!
    Last edited by derby; 01-19-2008 at 11:46 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    Unless there is a really altered conversion 96 fork to drastically reduce trail, it would really screw up the Mojo steering. The Mojo starts out with 69 degrees head angle. 96ser might be not too bad handling if the head angle starts from a bike with 71 or 72 degree head angle. Also 100/140 mm front/rear travel would have a strange balance compressing corners, g-outs, and landing jumps screwing up handling even worse. I guess you could reduce rear travel with a firm shock.
    Thanks for the feedback. My thoughts:

    I did not find the data on Ibis's website which indicated what fork length and AtoC lead to the 69 degrees measurement, however, all but their WTF build recommend the 08 Float RLC which is a 140mm fork. I know the AtoC of my 07 32 TALAS is 511mm at 140mm so I'll "assume" the Float 140mm is the same.

    Admittedly, I'm a geometry novice, however, in setting up my 29er HT this summer, I did begin to understand the relationship between HA, AtoC, offset and handling. My 71.5deg head angle, combined with the 510 AtoC and 44mm offset RST M29 fork provides outstanding handling.

    That being said, I played around this morning putting some numbers through http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/elenk.htm and here is what I see

    1) Trek Top Fuel 69'r has a 69deg HA, 100mm F29 with 51mm offset and produces 3.4" of trail (I used 29" outside diameter for all measurements, may not be right but it was consistent for all inputs). Ibis Mojo with 69 deg HA, 100mm F29 with 44mm offset (aftermarket) produces 3.6" of trail. .2" or 5mm would probably not be noticeable to the average rider.

    2) Top Fuel 69'r has a 12.9" BB height but doesn't list wether that is sagged or static. The Mojo is 13.1" unsagged, 12.4" sagged. Hard to compare against the Trek b/c it doesn't differentiate between sagged/unsagged but I think it lists unsagged. .2" again, not much difference.

    3) Top Fuel 69'r has a 72.5 deg seat tube angle, Mojo has 73 deg. I don't even pretend to understand the relationship between seat tube angle and changed induced by sag, but suffice it to say, .5 degree is not to radically different.

    4) Top Fuel 69'r has a 16.8" chainstay length, Mojo has a 16.9" length.

    Hard to compare wheelbase measurements because of the fork/rim change on a 96'd Mojo but suffice it say, in my mind, the Mojo would be 'similiar' to a Top Fuel 69er, which by initial accounts is a phenomal machine. I see it would handle a bit slower with the 5mm longer trail but I don't see the effects being adverse.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenLightGo
    Thanks for the feedback. My thoughts:

    I did not find the data on Ibis's website which indicated what fork length and AtoC lead to the 69 degrees measurement, however, all but their WTF build recommend the 08 Float RLC which is a 140mm fork. I know the AtoC of my 07 32 TALAS is 511mm at 140mm so I'll "assume" the Float 140mm is the same.

    Admittedly, I'm a geometry novice, however, in setting up my 29er HT this summer, I did begin to understand the relationship between HA, AtoC, offset and handling. My 71.5deg head angle, combined with the 510 AtoC and 44mm offset RST M29 fork provides outstanding handling.

    That being said, I played around this morning putting some numbers through http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/elenk.htm and here is what I see

    1) Trek Top Fuel 69'r has a 69deg HA, 100mm F29 with 51mm offset and produces 3.4" of trail (I used 29" outside diameter for all measurements, may not be right but it was consistent for all inputs). Ibis Mojo with 69 deg HA, 100mm F29 with 44mm offset (aftermarket) produces 3.6" of trail. .2" or 5mm would probably not be noticeable to the average rider.

    2) Top Fuel 69'r has a 12.9" BB height but doesn't list wether that is sagged or static. The Mojo is 13.1" unsagged, 12.4" sagged. Hard to compare against the Trek b/c it doesn't differentiate between sagged/unsagged but I think it lists unsagged. .2" again, not much difference.

    3) Top Fuel 69'r has a 72.5 deg seat tube angle, Mojo has 73 deg. I don't even pretend to understand the relationship between seat tube angle and changed induced by sag, but suffice it to say, .5 degree is not to radically different.

    4) Top Fuel 69'r has a 16.8" chainstay length, Mojo has a 16.9" length.

    Hard to compare wheelbase measurements because of the fork/rim change on a 96'd Mojo but suffice it say, in my mind, the Mojo would be 'similiar' to a Top Fuel 69er, which by initial accounts is a phenomal machine. I see it would handle a bit slower with the 5mm longer trail but I don't see the effects being adverse.
    Interesting study. I haven’t looked closely at trail until now having always been on 26 inch wheel bikes.

    I see the Fox F29 100 29 wheel specific fork has .5 inch more offset having 2 inches, vs. 1.5 offset for common 26 inch forks.

    I tried the steering geometry calculator you linked and at top out I got 3.4 inch trail using both a stock Fox fork with 26.2 inch wheel (considering using a 2.0 tire) 69 degree head angle, and your F29 fork with 29 diameter wheel with 69.2 head angle (due to lower a2c of the F29 - 510 vs. 518mm of the Fox 32/140 models).

    Head and seat angles at static sag (rider weight on bike not moving) front to rear is commonly about the same as top out frame angles. Usually the fork travel is about the same as rear, and sag is commonly 25% to 30% on bikes with 100mm travel or more.

    But you are thinking of using 100/140 mm travel front to rear so you’ll get about 1 inch static sag in front vs 1.4 inch in the rear at 25% sag. (Less than 25% sag on the Mojo’ dw-Link rear is not recommended due to introducing undesirable sharp pedal feedback when hitting sharp rocks.) This sag difference will effectively slacken the head and seat angles about .5 degree. So using the F29 fork your ride time head and seat angles on the Mojo would change at 25% sag to 68.7/72.5, and trail becomes 3.5. That’s even less than difference than you calculated.

    Edit: I forgot to add the higher big wheel axle height to the head angle change. So trial becomes 3.6 as GreenLightGo calced. Net effect is I like the 650b conversion net result better, having closer balanced suspension travel with improved rolling (theoretically since I’ve never ridden a 96 Mojo).

    It looks like using the F29 fork for your 9/6 conversion on the Mojo would work well.

    BTW, unless otherwise noted all bikes measure frame angles and specs at top out. The Mojo BB height is incorrect on the Ibis web site, it’s really 12.9 inches measured at top out (and 11.5 at 25% sag) with the stock 2.1 Nevegals, stock Fox 140 fork and shock. Very low BB height is the trend now rather than exception.

    Also I calced my trail change using the tool you linked going from 3.5 to 3.7 inches. Changing the front wheel only, going from a 26.75 diameter Mutanorator 2.4 (26’er) with 69 degree head angle, to 27.5 (650b) with 68.75 degree head angle. I do notice the steering balance difference, but not much.
    Last edited by derby; 01-21-2008 at 11:15 AM.

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    Derby - thanks for the feedback again. It's SOOO tempting to do this, particularly after reading the numerous 29er riders gushing over the 96er traits.

    Posting your beautiful machine didn't help.

    I'm wondering it a flatbar would help with the light front end feeling while climbing, I remember that being a typical trait mentioned? Combined with a 110mm stem, might help.

    A Mojo in Nuclear Pesto truly would be an interesting 96er.
    Happiness depends more on the inward disposition of mind than on outward circumstances. Benjamin Franklin

  17. #17
    TNC
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    Hey Derby...on fitting the DH rim strip into the Velocity, I spray Armor-All on the strip and wipe off any excess. Then when you lay the strip into the valley and kind of stretch it and smooth it around, it's amazing how this allows the strip to sort of "suck down" uniformly into the valley and against the outer lips of the rim bead. I find that when most of these strips are installed dry, they often stick and bunch up on the rim.

  18. #18
    Mr.650b - Mr.27-5
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    Hey Derby...on fitting the DH rim strip into the Velocity, I spray Armor-All on the strip and wipe off any excess. Then when you lay the strip into the valley and kind of stretch it and smooth it around, it's amazing how this allows the strip to sort of "suck down" uniformly into the valley and against the outer lips of the rim bead. I find that when most of these strips are installed dry, they often stick and bunch up on the rim.

    TNC,

    This sounds like a good idea and I'm going to try this myself.

    But I was curious to know if you've noticed if A-A interferes with the sealant's ability to seal in any way?

  19. #19
    TNC
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    I wondered the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Pacenti
    TNC,

    This sounds like a good idea and I'm going to try this myself.

    But I was curious to know if you've noticed if A-A interferes with the sealant's ability to seal in any way?
    At least initially. Kirk, I've done most of my strips this way since Stan's strips and sealant hit the market a good while back. I've also tried just smearing some of the sealant on the strip, and this works too...just not as effective as AA. There seems to be no negative result that I have ever detected after years of this application. In fact...after some of these have run for a long period, I've had to carefully peel the strip and tire bead away from each other to keep from tearing the strip. They were freakin' glued to each other in a most impressive manner. The AA only seems to be effective while installing the strip.

    Kirk...on your tire and the DH rim strip on my setup, there's not even the hint of moisture or discoloration around the entire bead of the tire. The place I rode the last 3 days is death on tires and will easily challenge tires with sketchy rim/bead interfaces in tubeless setup. It's pretty obvious that in my case, the DH strip and bead are extremely well matched. I'm impressed.

  20. #20
    mnt bike laws of physics
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    I tried the steering geometry calculator you linked and at top out I got 3.4 inch trail using both a stock Fox fork with 26.2 inch wheel (considering using a 2.0 tire) 69 degree head angle, and your F29 fork with 29 diameter wheel with 69.2 head angle (due to lower a2c of the F29 - 510 vs. 518mm of the Fox 32/140 models).
    Hey Derby, I noticed that the F29 fork has an A2C measurement that is only 8mm shorter than the Fox32.
    Shouldn't the head angle be slacker in the end since you are going to raise the front end about 30mm with the 29er wheel?
    The head tube will be about 22mm higher(unsagged) with the 29er setup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yogiprophet
    Hey Derby, I noticed that the F29 fork has an A2C measurement that is only 8mm shorter than the Fox32.
    Shouldn't the head angle be slacker in the end since you are going to raise the front end about 30mm with the 29er wheel?
    The head tube will be about 22mm higher(unsagged) with the 29er setup.
    Ooops! Yea I goofed up and forgot the higher axle height of the big wheel. Thanks. I guess GreenLight had the correct trail increase after all.

    I clearly added an edit to the post just above yours. Thanks.

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    The Mojo idea will have to wait for another day, I snagged a Sultan frame for $10 (yes, 10) more than the Mojo frame was going for. Easier to swap all my 29er stuff to the new frame and sell my 26" dually complete.
    Happiness depends more on the inward disposition of mind than on outward circumstances. Benjamin Franklin

  23. #23
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    More pix with a bit cleaner bike. And I cut the Velocity rim stickers down to look good and put them back on my rims to give respect to the brand.

    After a few more rides now I can say I have no intention of putting the 26 size wheel back on anytime soon. These wheels roll easier over rocks. And the steering is not much slower with the axle only 3/8 inch higher than stock when using the taller higher volume rear 26 size tire in back.

    I think the added mildly floppy steering feeling is mostly from the near 200 gram heavier and 3/4 inch taller wheel than I was using, not so much from the slacker steering trail geometry.

    I ride my tires tubeless with Stan’s rim-strips and sealer. I started out on the first ride with about 26 psi in the B front tire as I had used in my previous lighter 26 x 2.4 size Mutanoraptor front tires. But soon dropped a lot of pressure to get nice feeling smooth rolling balance with the rear 26 x 2.4 Mutanoraptor which I run at about 29 – 30 psi. I just checked the front B tire pressure with a very accurate motor racing quality gauge and I’m using just 16 psi!

    I admit the trails I’m riding are mostly smooth singletrack and cornering loads are mostly light under my 200 lbs. I do raise pressures about 5 psi front and rear for desert sharp rocky conditions. So I guess I’d go up to 20 – 22 psi max for a firm front tire but not too hard to loose good traction with these very low profile wide Pacenti Neo-Moto B x 2.3 in very rocky or harder riding conditions. I imagine a rear B size Neo-Moto would want about 4 psi more than the front, so between 20 for smoother and slower trails and up to 26 for very rocky and higher speed hard corning. The b wheels don't fit the rear of the Mojo. Hopefully Ibis will design for this size option in the future for those of us who like more AM oriented wheels and more pedal clearance.

    All good so far!
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    And without the ugly mud fenders. And a few more upgrades.
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  25. #25
    TNC
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    Gotta admit...these last pics look better. The Mojo isn't my type of bike, but it has beautiful lines. I wish I'd known there was a black Blunt rim. Good looking bike.

  26. #26
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    Gravity Dropper?

  27. #27
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    Amp

    Quote Originally Posted by MMcG
    Gravity Dropper?
    AMP (All Mountain Post)

    I liked the looks better than the GP and the early AMP reviews were a little better.

    http://precisioncyclingcomponents.com/

    No slop at all, but compared to the absolutely stiff 31.6mm Thompson post it replaced there is a little flex being a telescoping post into a 27.2 base, shimmed to 31.6.

    The machine finish work is very high, similar to Thompson, but of course far more technical. And it's only a couple ounces heavier, barely noticeable holding the Thomson and AMP in each hand.

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    derby - I gotta say - I do love the looks of your bike. I bet that thing would kick butt here on the East Coast too!

  29. #29
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    Velocity offers the 650B Blunt in Black, white and silver.

  30. #30
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    No white

    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked Headtube
    Velocity offers the 650B Blunt in Black, white and silver.
    Davis Carver from bikeman.com and carverbikes says white blunt is discontinued.
    So black and silver.
    Black is on its (long) way to me (Poland)

  31. #31
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    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by MMcG
    derby - I gotta say - I do love the looks of your bike. I bet that thing would kick butt here on the East Coast too!
    The PUSH tuned Mojo is not just easy on the eyes, it's so easy to ride too! The thing just luv's roller coaster rocky washed out trails both up and down. The 650b front wheel is icing on the cake!

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    The PUSH ...
    See this is what all people say of PUSH!
    I live in Poland but I must admit it's tempting to send the fork&shock overseas to PUSH...
    I will swallow shipping costs it's just the time it's going to spend in a parcell....
    But still, I think I just might go for it. if I do, what options do you guys advise? tia

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by krolik
    See this is what all people say of PUSH!
    I live in Poland but I must admit it's tempting to send the fork&shock overseas to PUSH...
    I will swallow shipping costs it's just the time it's going to spend in a parcell....
    But still, I think I just might go for it. if I do, what options do you guys advise? tia
    Better call or email PUSH to be sure they do international. They have a partner in the UK (I forget their name) that may be doing all international work using PUSH specification parts.

    I just paid for the top service upgrade option - the "Factory Race" kit I think it's called. I wanted the best possible damping and tuning for a conversion to coil shock and fork for the Mojo (which was designed for air suspension). I'm totally pleased with the performance improvement, PUSH guarantees your satisfaction and will re-tune if not pleased.

    The only disappointment in the handling of the Mojo now is the Fox32 fork is pretty flexy for the handling balance of the bike. I wish there was a 20mm axle option for the Fox32 forks. The Fox36's are much heavier (and expensive!) and may be overkill for most of the riding I do. I took off a Nixon Elite coil with 20mm axle and it was better in directional control riding in rocks but the damping was best optimized only as a good match for the stock Fox shocks. I've not found anyone who improves the damping tune like PUSH for the Nixon. I'm spoiled now by the quality of PUSH damping and so I will take a little fork flex in rocks for the better damping overall.

    I've heard rumor in Shock forum that Fox will have a 20mm or new "standard" 15mm axle option next year. Maybe I could swap out the lowers then to perfect the handling feel. Or now that PUSH does PIKE tuning I may get a 140mm PIKE coil with 20mm axle tuned by PUSH if that is an option.

    The Mojo has a little more rear sideway flex than some of the 5.5 inch designs, I find no performance loss. Perhaps it's one reason it feels like it has more travel and better bump compliance than other bikes I've ridden with the same travel. The rear pretty much follows the front and in my opinion the rear should be no stiffer flexing than the front to do so with good directional feel.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    The PUSH tuned Mojo is not just easy on the eyes, it's so easy to ride too! The thing just luv's roller coaster rocky washed out trails both up and down. The 650b front wheel is icing on the cake!
    derby - what is the rear chainstay length on the Mojo?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMcG
    derby - what is the rear chainstay length on the Mojo?
    It's 16.5 but there is room for up to 26 x 2.4 or 2.5 tires. With a larger volume 26 tire in the rear the 650b Neo-Moto is only 5/8 or 3/4 inch taller overall. And I've raised sag a little with preload so handling isn't much slower than with the same 26 wheels at both ends.

    I tried to fit my 650b front to the rear but it obviously rubs, and I'm not about to grind away the carbon fiber for clearance!

    I do have an enhancement request in to Ibis for an adjustable length rear drop out to accommodate the 650b size. They replied that it's a big redesign to change the swingarm to have such. Hopefully they and other bike designers go to more modular dropout fittings for alternate geometry and chainstay lengths.

    It took the 29'er trend many years before it took hold with the more established manufacturers. Hopefully 650b will have a shorter adoption period.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    With a larger volume 26 tire in the rear the 650b Neo-Moto is only 5/8 or 3/4 inch taller overall.
    By this do you mean diameter or radius? IOW, is the overall tire or bike taller by this much?

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    Quote Originally Posted by yogiprophet
    By this do you mean diameter or radius? IOW, is the overall tire or bike taller by this much?
    The 650b wheel with Neo-Moto tire is about 3/4 inch in diameter bigger than my 26 x 2.4 WTB tire in the rear. So using the same fork, the front axle (and wheel radius) is only about 3/8 inch higher than the rear axle.

    I've reduced rear sag slightly to reduce the raised fork's slacker angle and so reduced the longer steering trail when using the bigger wheel up front, so handling is not very much slower than the 26 inch wheels front and rear. The BB (and seat position) is nearly 1/4 inch higher at sag than previous. Iím still making minor seat position changes every few rides to get a nice leg reach and climbing position center over the cranks adjusting to the bikeís new feel.

    Hope that makes sense!

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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    They have a partner in the UK (I forget their name) that may be doing all international work using PUSH specification parts.
    www.tftunedshox.com is their UK partner - that's what PUSH responded - but I'm not sure of their quality. I might just send the foxes to a friend of mine in the US and have it returned to him.
    As for Talas TA - I keep saying that for a year now - it's pathetic they don't offer it.
    I'd go with the Pike but I use the Talas so often and it's so simple! I couldn't stand the Air-U turn needing to turn the knob forever. Pike with 2-step air would be perfect for my needs (or the Talas TA oc)

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    It's 16.5 but there is room for up to 26 x 2.4 or 2.5 tires. With a larger volume 26 tire in the rear the 650b Neo-Moto is only 5/8 or 3/4 inch taller overall. And I've raised sag a little with preload so handling isn't much slower than with the same 26 wheels at both ends.
    16.5 with all that room. A bike like that would absolutely kill it here in New England!!

    And I'd keep it set up just like you have it too. I think the real benefit of your set up is the larger diameter wheel in front rather than in the back.

  40. #40
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    Derby, I was wondering if you could measure the BB height with this setup.
    And also, what travel is the Fox fork?

    Thanks

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    White is GONE? Damn, I shouldn't have sold my White Rims.....off to the powder coater i suppose.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked Headtube
    White is GONE? Damn, I shouldn't have sold my White Rims.....off to the powder coater i suppose.
    You shold be
    My 650bling just arrived today (it took almost a month alltogether) - the wheel will be built by monday with 240's 9mmRWS
    You go to the powdercoater, I, in the meantime, am just off to a 6h winter night race

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    Upon further review...

    Well, I tried my 26 inch front wheel yesterday after about 2 months on the 650b. In short, I like the 650b in front better using the same fork. I decided about half way through my familiar single track loop on the 26 that any negative slower steering tradeoffs was not as big as the very noticeable improvement the 650b wheel rolls and absorbs bump hits with the ability to use much lower tire presser without added side rollover or rim wallow with the short sidewall wide round profile Pacenti tire.

    On the flats and uphill The 26 wheel brought back the irregular more choppy front suspension feel compared to the rear smoothness from being more heavily weighted except downhill or while braking. I reduced compression damping some to soften it up but suffered faster brake dive and more wallow. The bigger 650b front wheel balances that bump hit sensation just about perfectly.

    So today I put the 650b back on. Plus I finally bought the stem height spacers needed and lowered my stem the difference in 650b axle height more than the 2.4x26 wheel (1/4 inch) and bumped my seat forward (1/8 inch) to match my many years favorite position over the pedals. And clicked the fork compression up to where I had previously found a nice balance with the rear.

    As soon as I headed down my street on the way to the trail head I could feel my familiar weight again forward on the fork with the bigger wheel removed any floppy slow steering feel I had felt at first. Climbing the switchbacks felt just about same as the previous day on the 26 inch wheel. Just that slight tweak of my fit position remove any weird handling sensations I had previously noticed just swapping to the larger wheel without doing a frame geometry fit adjustment.

    I really think that this slightly bigger front wheel allowing even lower front tire pressures balances a full suspension bike bump it feel and rough trail flow better than same sized wheels front and rear. And Iím realizing that a steering trail difference of up to .2 even .3 inches longer isnít much of a difference as long as the fit is adjusted so rider weight over the wheels remains the same.

  44. #44
    TNC
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    Same here...but I continue to be impressed by the cornering performance of the 650B on front. In the past when running a huge 26" Michelin 2.8 DH tire on the front of a Santa Cruz Bullit, I thought the improved handling performance was just because of a super wide, aggressive tread, tire. The height and subsequently increased tire footprint is apparently at least an equally big advantage. And you get that with the 650B without running an absurd 1400g tire...LOL!

    The "rollover" quality of the 650B is there, but I don't seem to notice it as much until the terrain gets stupid rocky. That cornering quality, however, I notice on even a smooth trail. Like you, Derby, I can't imagine choosing my old 26 front for my Nomad over the 650B. In fact we just ordered 4 more NeoMotos last week for another conversion at the shop, a spare for the shop, and a spare for me for an upcoming Moab trip. Yeah...I wish a 650B would fit on the rear of my Nomad. I'm glad you're still enjoying yours...I can understand why.

  45. #45
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    Thanks for the update Derby and for your reply TNC.
    I am really looking forward to building the 650b Stans wheel this week and joining the club. I am doing a race at the end of the month that is very rocky and think the bigger wheel will help. Will post comments after the race and give feedback.
    One day I may do a 26/27.5 Mojo. I noticed LCC put a carbon Lefty Max on his and loves it. The Lefty Max fits a 650b without any mods

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogiprophet
    Thanks for the update Derby and for your reply TNC.
    I am really looking forward to building the 650b Stans wheel this week and joining the club. I am doing a race at the end of the month that is very rocky and think the bigger wheel will help. Will post comments after the race and give feedback.
    One day I may do a 26/27.5 Mojo. I noticed LCC put a carbon Lefty Max on his and loves it. The Lefty Max fits a 650b without any mods
    Very cool yogiprophet. Iím looking forward to your reviews.

    TNC, I'm beginning to get a sense that the larger front wheel corners with better grip. It's been wet and muddy most of the time I've run the 650b front and there may even be a slight rolling advantage in mud over the smaller tire too. But without some looser gravely or deep dusty conditions to connect a least a few corners yet this year, and we don't have semi-sandy conditions here, I can't really say the cornering grip has been very noticeably better yet, although on rougher hardpack it corners smoother - and smooth is glue.

    Iím mostly really liking the more evenly smooth balanced feel of bump hits front and rear straight up and cornering using a bigger wheel with noticeably lower pressures in front.

    I really like the Pacenti tire and will soon put a Panaracer Rampage on back that should match the Neo-Moto much better than the Mutanoraptor.

    I've been test riding the new Marin Mt Vision (4.7 inch travel) and Wolf Ridge (6.3 inch) Quad-link bikes to consider building a full 650b bike. They side flex more than the Mojo and there's some more pedaling reactivity compared to the minimal of a dw-link, but the new Quad is the closest I've ridden to the dw-link pedaling quality. When a dw-link AM frame is produced that fit's a 650b, I'll be there. The Mojo is riding so sweet now with coil suspension and under 30 lbs and with a Pushíd Pike 454 coil coming soon I'll probably hold off on a 650b fully for a while.

    Thanks again to Kirk Pacenti for pioneering this wheel size for trail bike use. And your new light knob tire looks perfect for racing and the lightest wheel builds.

  47. #47
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    drill

    TNC and Derby,

    What size of a drill bit did you guys use for converting the blunt to schrader for NT dh strip? I'll be doing that tomorrow and don't want to guess.
    tia

  48. #48
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    Hmmm...didn't even look at it. I have a set of drill bits in stepped size order. I selected one that was just a bit smaller than the schrader valve on the DH strip and went up a bit at a time until the valve just fit the hole. You have to clean the burrs and smooth out the hole a bit anyway with a small rat tail file, so the finished hole is just a perfect fit with the minimal amount of excess. Obviously you don't want the strip's valve jammed in too tight a hole, but just big enough to allow easy installation without too much material removed from the rim.

    We keep a bit chucked up in an electric drill at the shop all the time for MTB rims converting from presta, but I couldn't tell you for the life of me what size it is...LOL!

  49. #49
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    thanks anyway.
    I take it you don't mess with different hole sizes in outer and inner rim walls?
    I am soooooo willing to take that wheel for a spin at late late last!!!

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by krolik
    thanks anyway.
    I take it you don't mess with different hole sizes in outer and inner rim walls?
    I am soooooo willing to take that wheel for a spin at late late last!!!
    I don't know the bit size either. I did the same as TNC. Started with one slightly too small and then larger until the Schrader valve fit.

    Hey TNC. I wish I lived in a place where I could justify owning a longer travel bike. But 99% of the riding in the NorCal coastal and Sierra is fine with just 5.5 inches - and really more than 4 inch travel is too much without a suspension designed for long climbs. I wish I had a 6point for a few places I go to on vacation. I was very unsure of the carbon fiber use for mountain bikes but those fears are long gone for Ibis designed CF. I trust the Mojo more than any other sub-30 pound FS bike to get me back to the trailhead after a bad crash.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    And Iím realizing that a steering trail difference of up to .2 even .3 inches longer isnít much of a difference as long as the fit is adjusted so rider weight over the wheels remains the same.
    This is exactly what I am finding as I dial-in my Raleigh 69er.

  52. #52
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    derby, it's funny about my Nomad. I also have a 2-3 lb. lighter 5" bike...Specialized 4-bar Horst link...and even on smoother trails, my 32 lb. Nomad is still faster. I have computers on all my MTB's and keep track of times and such on our local trail after a ride...not written down but a mental note always taken of how I did on a particular ride. I'm fairly amazed at how well a Nomad can do if not built up to an FR level. I notice Mark Weir is allegedly going to the new generation BLT this year for much of his use, but it's quite apparent the Nomad didn't hold him back too much...LOL!

  53. #53
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    I haven't been over here in awhile and had missed this thread. Looks very cool Ray. I had a chance to ride the Carver Ti 650b "Killer B" at I-bike and was very impressed with the combination of big wheel smooth and small wheel quick/nimble.

    The mojo-b looks awesome (especially without all the fender paraphenalia attached ). DT's been toying around with a possible 5.5spot 650b which might very well be the one bike that could replace both my current rigs (HH100x and 6.6).

    I see Pacentti and dieselcruiserhead have built up some really cool Ventana Bastardo's too. Exciting times.

    PS: You owe me a trip over this way so I can ogle the Ibis.
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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob
    I haven't been over here in awhile and had missed this thread. Looks very cool Ray. I had a chance to ride the Carver Ti 650b "Killer B" at I-bike and was very impressed with the combination of big wheel smooth and small wheel quick/nimble.

    The mojo-b looks awesome (especially without all the fender paraphenalia attached ). DT's been toying around with a possible 5.5spot 650b which might very well be the one bike that could replace both my current rigs (HH100x and 6.6).

    I see Pacentti and dieselcruiserhead have built up some really cool Ventana Bastardo's too. Exciting times.

    PS: You owe me a trip over this way so I can ogle the Ibis.
    I hate putting those ugly fenders on, but it sure makes mud ride cleanup much easier, and protects the drivetrain, otherwise I get terminal chain-suck from a muddy chain half way through a ride.

    One big reason I got the Mojo without test riding nearly 2 years ago was the handling geometry was nearly identical to the 5-Spot's handling I like so much. I wasn't happy with any of the prior dw-Link suspension bike's handling.

    A year ago I was talking with DT at the Sea Otter Classic about 29'ers, and he didn't like 29íers at all (this was not long before the Sultan came out due only to pop demand). I mentioned then that I thought 29íers ruled single-speed, but I didnít like the way they handled either but I wanted about 27 inch size wheels (because 26 is a bit small for me hovering near clydes size). Ta-daÖ Pacenti got it going!

    You owe me a trip out here! Iím going to try to do both i-bike demo days this year and ride as many as possible. I heard rumored i-bike might be in Anaheim, CA this year. I canít image the test trails will be anywhere as good as Bootleg.

  55. #55
    mnt bike laws of physics
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    I mentioned then that I thought 29íers ruled single-speed, but I didnít like the way they handled either but I wanted about 27 inch size wheels (because 26 is a bit small for me hovering near clydes size). Ta-daÖ Pacenti got it going!
    That is very cool derby. About 3 or 4 months before Pacenti introduced the twenty-seven point five wheel size I was talking to a friend who is all about 29ers. He was trying to get me into it.
    I told him that they were just too big for a full suspension bike and I would really like a 27.5" wheel(That number came to me simply because it was in between 26 and 29). He just laughed. I couldn't believe it when I heard about Pacenti's vision. We were all riding the same wave.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    You owe me a trip out here! Iím going to try to do both i-bike demo days this year and ride as many as possible. I heard rumored i-bike might be in Anaheim, CA this year. I canít image the test trails will be anywhere as good as Bootleg.
    I guess that's true. Any good places to ride in norcal?

    I'm definitely up for I-bike again. I think they are contracted for the Sands in Vegas this year but I did read a post about some possible other locations for 2009. Anaheim, Salt Lake City, and Denver came up.
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