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  1. #101
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    Geo or travel numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blurbikerider View Post
    Just received the new full suspension 650b frame through Shenzhen Honsen sports! I have been so happy with my converted superlight besides all the broken der.hangers I thought losing some weight would be nice.I weighed it as it came ,bare without shock and it is 3lb13oz . Now im just waiting on a few other parts to arrive so I can get out and test it !
    I contacted hongFuv via the earlier link in the thread looks like the same frame you have there. They did not supply geometry head set (straight or tappered or suspension travel shock eyelet to eyelet. Did you get any of that from them? If so could you post? Thanks in advance!
    UGG boots will germinate Paris Hilton like intellect in your soles!

  2. #102
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    650 b full suspension hm-156 geo

    Quote Originally Posted by carverboy View Post
    I contacted hongFuv via the earlier link in the thread looks like the same frame you have there. They did not supply geometry head set (straight or tappered or suspension travel shock eyelet to eyelet. Did you get any of that from them? If so could you post? Thanks in advance!
    I did business with Shenzhen Honsen sports since Hong Fu never responded to my emails. Hong Fu mentions that their frame has convertable thru axle dropouts so I'm not sure if it's the same otherwise ,anyway i have attached a snapshot of the geometry chart they gave me .
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-hm156-bike-frame.jpg  


  3. #103
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    Can any of these frames handle a 650b 140mm fork or 69er setup with a 100mm fork?
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  4. #104
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    Last edited by nowshon; 02-12-2013 at 06:12 PM.

  5. #105
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    Interested

    Quote Originally Posted by nowshon View Post
    I have a Pro Motion brand 650b hardtail frame listed in classifieds. Size medium. After reading posts here, I'm 99% sure it's a Hong Fu FM136 frame under the red and white paint. $400 plus $30 shipping to lower 48.
    PM about your promotion frame for sale

  6. #106
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    650b project

    Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-my-650b.jpgfixing one up now.... will have more pics and complete list of goodies to come

  7. #107
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    glossy

    Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-my-650b.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by foofighter275 View Post
    such a good looking bike and i'm glad you did go w/t he matte finish...
    i have the glossy

  8. #108
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    yes mine has a xfusion velvet rl2 140mm fork

  9. #109
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    hey what front deraileur did you guys go with? low clamp or high clamp top pull or did it matter? i just ordered low clamp sram xx fr delr for mine..

  10. #110
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    On the Hong-Fu Geometry photo oh Flickr, the A-C is listed as 485mm, which is suitable for a 100mm fork.
    All sizes | HF-FM136-650B-20 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

    A 140mm fork would really raise the BB.
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausable View Post
    This is the preliminary list of pros and cons
    LIKE
    >The frame came properly packed, with all the delicate bits protected by foam, plugs or spacers. Could use a sturdier box, which came slightly “bumped” but no damage.
    >Beautiful finish, 3k weave plus clear coat. I thought to remove paint and go for the matte look but there’s too much work involved, forget about it.
    >Actual weight: 1130g on my digital scale ; exactly within the claimed tolerances. This is a great weight for the money.
    >Clean (internal) cable routing ;
    >Included headset is decent quality (well there’s little more than the bearings…) Compression plug for carbon forks is a nice touch
    >Dropout spacing spot – on ; BB threads OK; Headset housing seems to have the right tolerance,but bearings not fitted yet.

    DON’T LIKE
    >Internal routing for rear brake - too much fuss (and bleeding required) for limited advantage
    >Chainstays are a bit on the chunky side, I expect a relatively harsh ride, we'll see.
    >No chainsuck protection plate embedded in the chainstays
    After a long wait due to a couple of misplaced orders (never buy anything around the Christmas period, lesson learned) , I finally started my build.

    I have to update my initial impressions about the headset cups - the fitting is slightly loose, to the point I could quite easily slip the bearings in and out.
    Not loose to the point of dropping, but loose enough to require some Loctite. I will keep you posted about the lifespan of this "repair", I think it will be permanent, but we'll see.

    Anyone had this experience?
    flyMTBfish

  12. #112
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    bumping the thread
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  13. #113
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    Was hoping Rhynope would give us some more pictures.
    GIS/GPS Pro using ArcFM for Utility Mapping - Always willing to connect with other MTBers in the industry.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhynope650b View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	my 650b.jpg 
Views:	927 
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ID:	768658fixing one up now.... will have more pics and complete list of goodies to come
    That's the Flyxii(a_baygoods on ebay) FR-501 frame right?
    What size did you get and how tall are you if you don't mind me asking? Does the toptube feel short? How is the standover? What do you think is the max tire that will fit in the back?
    And, more pics please! I'm about to pull the trigger on this frame too. Just need to decide what size to get. I'm 5'9" so I usually ride medium or 17", 17.5" frames but this frame's really short top tube has me kind of worried.

  15. #115
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    More pictures...

  16. #116
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    is this a single pivot design?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blurbikerider View Post
    I did business with Shenzhen Honsen sports since Hong Fu never responded to my emails. Hong Fu mentions that their frame has convertable thru axle dropouts so I'm not sure if it's the same otherwise ,anyway i have attached a snapshot of the geometry chart they gave me .
    Looks like a faux bar design.
    Just Ride!

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurbikerider View Post
    Just received the new full suspension 650b frame through Shenzhen Honsen sports! I have been so happy with my converted superlight besides all the broken der.hangers I thought losing some weight would be nice.I weighed it as it came ,bare without shock and it is 3lb13oz . Now im just waiting on a few other parts to arrive so I can get out and test it !
    Ok ,just got to take it out for a short spin today,I should have waited for my chainguide to arrive though as I dropped the chain about 10 times even with a type 2 derailleur . Anyway ,the bike is excellent so far ,I didn't notice any brake jacking like with the Superlight and the 1.5lb lighter frame was certainly noticeable on acceleration and climbs. I have an old Float R Ava shock on it right now and It still felt better when standing and pedaling compared to the Superlight . Was thinking of getting a new fox ctd shock for it but that may be wasted money.Very happy with this cheap generic Chinese frame ,go suck it Santa Cruz !

  18. #118
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    Chinese 27er Bike pic

    Quote Originally Posted by Blurbikerider View Post
    Ok ,just got to take it out for a short spin today,I should have waited for my chainguide to arrive though as I dropped the chain about 10 times even with a type 2 derailleur . Anyway ,the bike is excellent so far ,I didn't notice any brake jacking like with the Superlight and the 1.5lb lighter frame was certainly noticeable on acceleration and climbs. I have an old Float R Ava shock on it right now and It still felt better when standing and pedaling compared to the Superlight . Was thinking of getting a new fox ctd shock for it but that may be wasted money.Very happy with this cheap generic Chinese frame ,go suck it Santa Cruz !
    I have attached a pic of the build.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-27er.jpg  


  19. #119
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    Nice! I like the cat.

  20. #120
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    Did they ever give you an explinationof the paint issue?

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurbikerider View Post
    I have attached a pic of the build.
    More pics.... please???
    Cul is a regretted trademark of the CulBaire Co'op Pty Ltd, as are his random ramblings and associated bullshit.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramjm_2000 View Post
    Did they ever give you an explinationof the paint issue?
    When I originally asked about painting the frame I asked what colors and scheme examples he had and he said there were none available for this frame since it was so new. So for 28.00 I figured I would let them paint it whatever scheme and color they wanted. Well I guess the language barrier or something and they must consider the glossy coat as painted. To answer your question though , no he did not reply to my question.

  23. #123
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    Here's a few more pics .
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-27er-.jpg  

    Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-27er-b.jpg  

    Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-27er-c.jpg  


  24. #124
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    Wow! The rear tire clearance is little bit tight. Is it really 650b frame?

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristinka View Post
    Wow! The rear tire clearance is little bit tight. Is it really 650b frame?
    It is tight but the frame is xc 100 mm travel rather than all mountain ,perfect for here in the south east.

  26. #126
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    I wonder if it is the same frame as their 26er frame? As long as it works it makes no difference, I guess, but that is pretty tight clearance for a purpose-built frame.

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by talabardio View Post
    I wonder if it is the same frame as their 26er frame? As long as it works it makes no difference, I guess, but that is pretty tight clearance for a purpose-built frame.
    It very well could be the 26er frame ,regardless I would have bought the 26er version a long time ago if I new the rear tire would fit.

  28. #128
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    It's a 17" frame. I have more pics just hadn't had the time to post. Crackedheadtube is a dear friend in helping me assemble this project. It's a beast.. Really love the way it rides. All carbon xx components. 22 lbs. I'm 5'7". I'd prolly go with the 19" frame for taller than 5-'8

  29. #129
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    Updated pics

    Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-image.jpgChinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-image.jpgChinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-image.jpg

    This almost finished .waiting on the front deraileur.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhynope650b View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	image.jpg 
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    Can you measure from the ground to the center of the BB for us?

    Big thanks if so!
    GIS/GPS Pro using ArcFM for Utility Mapping - Always willing to connect with other MTBers in the industry.

  31. #131
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    Anyone has purchased the FR-502 frame from szxgd store on ebay?

    ebay.com/itm/FR-502-Full-Carbon-3K-Glossy-Mountain-Bike-27-5-650B-Frame-Headset-17-19-21-/281067764881

    Greetings from Chile

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurbikerider View Post
    It is tight but the frame is xc 100 mm travel rather than all mountain ,perfect for here in the south east.
    What size tire are you running? Any more feedback on the suspension ride quality and pedal bob what be appreciated.
    Just Ride!

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wveddy View Post
    What size tire are you running? Any more feedback on the suspension ride quality and pedal bob what be appreciated.
    I'm Running 2.2 Racing Ralphs on Crest rims which may spread the tire out a little. The bike rides great but I have only ridden Older model Santa cruz Blurs and a newer Superlight so I am comparing to those . There's just nothing about the suspension to think about ,its now just having fun beating all my own strava times. I only weigh 137 lbs so I don't know if that has anything to do with it ,I set the old Fox ava shock to 20% sag and havn't thought about it since. The only reason I would like a new shock is to shave some weight and be able to give my wife back her shock . I can tell the bike is super stiff and more so than my superlight but with less vibration .
    With all that said this frame could just be the same 26er model . Hong Fu mentions their model has changeable dropouts but these are not needed for a frame this stiff with 27" wheels imho .

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhynope650b View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	image.jpg 
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ID:	774013Click image for larger version. 

Name:	image.jpg 
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    This almost finished .waiting on the front deraileur.
    rhynope650b your frame is the model fr-501 from flyxii .com?

    how was the quality?

  35. #135
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    Great quality. I ride the crap out of it wrecks included. Jumps and all trail conditions . Very light. All carbon bike it weights around 22 lbs +/-

  36. #136
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    It's been a few months now since the FM136 guys posts. How has the frame holding up? I'm in communications with Hongfu and ready to pull the trigger on a 16" frame for hardtail build. It's nighttime over there as of this posting so I have quite a few hours to decide.

  37. #137
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    Nancy (Hongfu) quoted me 705.00 on the FM196 shipped to the states. Lead time of 3 months....

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by natron5000 View Post
    Nancy (Hongfu) quoted me 705.00 on the FM196 shipped to the states. Lead time of 3 months....
    I contacted Nancy today and she send me geometry chart for FM196.
    Just compared it with Scott Scale 700

    Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-nino-geo.png

    and it looks like the chinese frame is pretty close to Scale, except the curved top tube

    sorry for my english...
    Lead time of 3 months
    does that mean you'll have to wait 3 months or...?

  39. #139
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    If we get 4 others together including myself, we can get the FM196 for $640 shipped. I would really like to pick one up at this price. Lets get this together guys!

  40. #140
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    I'm good for a group buy. (Velobuild has stopped doing group buys from Hongfu - this concerns me a little.)

    General questions, I am wondering if the FM196 is compatible w/ 156 Q-Factor. Also, I would be fitting it w/ an XX1 drivetrain. So, which is the cleaner conversion BB92 to BB30 or GXP? I am not experienced in any of those....

    This is the text from Nancy's email:

    the price:
    FM196:$615
    headset:$15(1-18".1-1/2")
    ship cost:$90

    the lead time for 17.5" is 3 month.all is inner cable routing.
    the warranty is 2 years under the normal use.
    the seat tube size is 31.6mm
    can stand 150KG.

  41. #141
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    I want to be in for the group buy on the FM196 small for $640 shipped.

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurbikerider View Post
    Ok ,just got to take it out for a short spin today,I should have waited for my chainguide to arrive though as I dropped the chain about 10 times even with a type 2 derailleur . Anyway ,the bike is excellent so far ,I didn't notice any brake jacking like with the Superlight and the 1.5lb lighter frame was certainly noticeable on acceleration and climbs. I have an old Float R Ava shock on it right now and It still felt better when standing and pedaling compared to the Superlight . Was thinking of getting a new fox ctd shock for it but that may be wasted money.Very happy with this cheap generic Chinese frame ,go suck it Santa Cruz !
    LOL so you buy a single pivot FS, then get a non single pivot and it rides better, yet that is SC fault.

    Know what your buying before you do next time.
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  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnybravo View Post
    If we get 4 others together including myself, we can get the FM196 for $640 shipped. I would really like to pick one up at this price. Lets get this together guys!

    I want to be in for the group buy on the FM196 small for $640 shipped.

  44. #144
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    I just need 2 more people to get in on this. BTW, where are you guys located? I'm wondering just in case they dont want to drop ship and I have to ship these out...

  45. #145
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    I suppose this is just for you guys in USA. I'm interested but I'm in Europe

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnybravo View Post
    I just need 2 more people to get in on this. BTW, where are you guys located? I'm wondering just in case they dont want to drop ship and I have to ship these out...
    Orange Ca 92868

  47. #147
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    I don't like the big BB-offset of 53mm on the FM136 frame. May be better with a 29er fork..?

    The FLX-FR-501 has very smal BB-offset with its 36mm. And that is with a AC fork lenght of 472mm. I guess this is best used with a shorter rigid fork.

  48. #148
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    LHSN ~ I'v seen group buys that ship to multiple different continents. Not sure what Hongfu policy is, maybe run it past Nancy.

  49. #149
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    So here's the deal to save on shipping...2 frames fit per box. If 2 people live near by, they can get shipped to the same address. I live in San Jose, CA. I have my coworker who is getting a frame also. We need 4 others to make this deal happen. So the other 4 can go in pairs to 2 different addresses if needed.

  50. #150
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    just the BB is BB92mm, other is same as existing 27.5er frames.

  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motomatt View Post
    I want to be in for the group buy on the FM196 small for $640 shipped.
    it seems need a guide for group buy which contact supplier to buy and do payment, maybe it need send to guider's address, then he send frame to other members, a little trouble!

  52. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by morphtcat View Post
    Sure. Here you go. Hopefully this works correctly. The bike is a little dirty, sorry















    so beautiful 27.5er frame

  53. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurbikerider View Post
    It was 747.00 without paint and shipped from China to Florida.
    the sample price for 27.5er suspension: 660usd/set
    Last edited by Bella Xu; 06-17-2013 at 09:30 PM.

  54. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by FNFAL View Post
    I'm interested in this as well. I'll be wanting to build up a 650b rigid carbon bike from a cheap chinese frame sometime in the future. Having ride reports would be nice.
    normally china 650b hardtail frame:375-400usd/set

  55. #155
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    May I report to the group about my attempt to purchase a FS 650B frame form HongFu sports Equipment Co.,Ltd.

    First, the good. Looking at the model HF-FM156 (2013 650B Full Suspension), I came to the conclusion that the design is well thought-out and fits my riding style almost perfectly.

    The suspension is simple but sturdy; incorporating all the design elements I learned to like in this class of bikes: 13"+ BB, frame suspension butted against the top tube, minimal of pivot points (no fancy geometry claims) and 68 deg. head angle. The 108 mm (4.25") rear and 120 mm (4.72") front suspension is odd is some ways, because virtually all of the mainstream FS bikes have matching suspension travels -- wondering why. More about this later...

    The medium (18") frame weight is listed at 1900 grams that is light; not unlike the quoted price of $700.00 that is also sweet. So I have placed an order for the frame along with other parts that would fit the bike and was available to order; totaling just under $1k. Order placed/paid on April 29th.

    Secondly, the not so good. Ever since there is no shipment, despite very active communications with Nancy. I was promised to be shipped in May and now is shipping "this month" (June). After pushing for a firm shipping date I have learned that there is a manufacturing problem that was not disclosed to me before.

    Quote from Nancy:
    ....
    now all customers are waiting the the frame.
    please understand,
    FM156 frame have a little problen on the seat stay.
    we need solve it and proceed to produce it.
    ...

    I tend to be patient and understand problems, but China is a long way from Simi Valley and don't know what to think now. There seem to be some track record established here for Hongfu bikes, but not enough to make me worry free.

    Wondering if someone has more insight here.

    Reference:
    HF-FM156-M.pdf (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0v1...it?usp=sharing)

    Cheers,
    Zoltan

  56. #156
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    I've always felt that no manufacturer is flawless. It's how they handle the flaws that set them apart. Shipping you a frame with a known flaw would be bad. Delaying shipment while they resolve the issue, not so bad. I would say be patient and see what they do. FWIW, my FM136 has been fantastic. They had it in stock when I ordered it last November so I got it right away. It's a quality product at a really good price. That really good price is worth a little patience...

  57. #157
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    I feel better now... Don't mind if there is a good reason and the communications are open. So I will wait a while, let's see what happens. Thank you for giving a positive feedback!

  58. #158
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    Hello

    My project...Scott SPARK 650B

  59. #159
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    Wait..what?!?

    I'm all for "box from taiwan" frames. But you went to all that trouble to source/make Scott stickers and even paint the rear triangle!? I just don't get it..Though the "prototype" stickers do add a nice touch. The icing on the cardboard cake so to speak.

    Genuine question: What happens when someone rolls up to you and says, "Whoa! Where did you get a prototype 650b Spark!? I didn't even think you could buy one yet!" What do you tell them?
    www.msmtb.org - Mississippi Mountain Biking

  60. #160
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    Nice cake, indeed.... :-)

    But wait! ohpossum! If I am correct, vicaru is from Columbia... Now I am pretty familiar with the US trademark laws, but I would not comment on that other country. He might as well be OK with it and anyhow, vicaru is an alias for Scott :-)

    Well, I would not do the sticker thing myself, but the bike certainly looks awesome.

    What kind of fork are you using (model/travel)? How is the ride?

  61. #161
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    What happened with the pictures? Just curious...

    Quote Originally Posted by vicaru View Post
    Hello

    My project...Scott SPARK 650B

  62. #162
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    Iplay have 27.5er carbon rims/wheels available, 1320g/pair (Novatec hubs+Sapim spokes/nipples). pls contact with me: bella@xmiplay.cn

  63. #163
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    edited

  64. #164
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    Hi! I'm thinking about the FM156 from Deng Fu/Hong Fu/whoever and I'm wondering does anyone know what geometry/frame style this bike is based upon?

    Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-fm156.jpg

    Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-fm156_geometry.jpg

  65. #165
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    I found the Scott Genius 700 to be the closest. However, this frame comes with only 108 mm rear axle travel (6.5 frame shock) vs. the Scott's 140.

    BTW, I just got the frame -- so far so good :-)
    Last edited by halyho; 07-06-2013 at 03:24 PM.

  66. #166
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    I've been riding the bike for 6 months now, including 4 endurance races (6 hour solo) and it's holding up just fine. No issues.

  67. #167
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    Great News, IP-136 and IP-156 frame QR&142mm axle dropouts swappable

    Great news for IP-136 hadrtail frame and IP-156 full suspension 650b frame. Now we make these two frames swappable 135mm QR and 142mm axle dropouts.

    Attached some pictures for reference.

    Email: peter@xmiplay.cn
    Skype: peterque520
    Website: Xiamen Iplay Sporting Goods Co.,Ltd.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-ip-156.jpg  

    Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-qr-142axle-dropouts.jpg  

    Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-img_4855.jpg  

    Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-new-dropout-135mm-qr-2.jpg  

    Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-dropout-142-axle-1-piece-version-1.jpg  


  68. #168
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    Peter,

    What kind of axle hardware are you recommending for the 142 dropout? It looks like a set screw is needed on the last picture. Do you supply the nut?

    Thx

  69. #169
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    I tried to get the new ultra-light FM196 frame but it won't be available in large for a while. I settled for the FR-502 frame. About 300g heavier and $500 cheaper. I got the accompanying rigid fork and will have it built next week. Frame, fork, headset and shipping were $460.
    Keep the Country country.

  70. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by halyho View Post
    Peter,

    What kind of axle hardware are you recommending for the 142 dropout? It looks like a set screw is needed on the last picture. Do you supply the nut?

    Thx
    Shimano Axle as attached I think. Sorry we don't supply the nut.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  71. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    I tried to get the new ultra-light FM196 frame but it won't be available in large for a while. I settled for the FR-502 frame. About 300g heavier and $500 cheaper. I got the accompanying rigid fork and will have it built next week. Frame, fork, headset and shipping were $460.
    Now we have ultra-light IP-196 frame in stock.

  72. #172
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    Do you mean Shimano SM-AX75 Rear Thru Axle Quick Release (12x142-mm) Like this one at Amazon?

    I hope the fixing nut will fit into the hanger's cavity.

    Do you know by any chance what is the dimension of the set screw?

  73. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterque View Post
    Now we have ultra-light IP-196 frame in stock.
    2 days ago I was told the 21" size still needed testing and an availability date was unknown. Only 17" & 19" are available.
    Keep the Country country.

  74. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by halyho View Post
    Do you mean Shimano SM-AX75 Rear Thru Axle Quick Release (12x142-mm) Like this one at Amazon?

    I hope the fixing nut will fit into the hanger's cavity.

    Do you know by any chance what is the dimension of the set screw?
    Sorry, I can't open the link. I sold many IP-057 29er frame for 142 axle, maybe you can find the answer on "Chinese carbon 29er" thread.

  75. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    2 days ago I was told the 21" size still needed testing and an availability date was unknown. Only 17" & 19" are available.
    Oh sorry, I don't know you need a large frame.

  76. #176
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    Oh, thanks. Just have to order and see if it fits.

    Can you answer my question regarding the set screw size?

    THX.

  77. #177
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    Any of these supporting a 140mm fork yet?

    Hoping to do a 659er.
    GIS/GPS Pro using ArcFM for Utility Mapping - Always willing to connect with other MTBers in the industry.

  78. #178
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    Hi Peter,

    I am not sure what company you are with, but I bought a frame from HongFu Bikes (FM-156) that looks just like this. I also have the same derailleur hanger pictured by you. I hope you and Nancy will pay attention to this :-)

    I have a problem with he design and I am just copying the the email I have sent to Nancy Huang at sales04@hongfu-bikes.cn:

    ----------------

    I have spent researching the 142x12 dropout issue and the situation is a lot worst then I thought. There is a design flaw and structural problem with the rear triangle and the way the dropout is implemented.

    1. The frame attachment does not provide for a positive stop in "down" direction. The only structural support is provided by two attachment screws that screw into the hanger itself. The thread only provides for minimal holding

    2. The inserted axle cutout is pulling on two small holes drilled into the carbon fiber tab, instead of a cutout for the whole axle (what is the reason on the first place for the implementation of a hollow 12 mm through axle). This implementation is technically worst then a traditional QR skewer attachment.

    3. The hanger itself attaches to the frame using a fixed width slot to the frame tab. The fixed slot prevents a positive locking action through the force of the axle pressure, creating a constant loose connection between the frame in two directions: parallel to the axle and radial to the axle due to the loose fit of the hanger attachment screws and the frame for them.

    4. The hanger attachment tab of the rear triangle is made of carbon fiber instead of a metal insert that rectifies the loose fit and long-term exposure of trail pounding.

    Please see the attached images I took.
    Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-hungfu-hanger_page_1_image_0001.jpgChinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-hungfu-hanger_page_2_image_0001.jpgChinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-hungfu-hanger_page_3_image_0001.jpgChinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-hungfu-hanger_page_4_image_0001.jpgChinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-hungfu-hanger_page_5_image_0001.jpgChinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-hungfu-hanger_page_6_image_0001.jpgChinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-hungfu-hanger_page_7_image_0001.jpg

    As an example, here is an implementation that has (a) positive retention for axle, hanger and frame (b) thread for axle (c) solid, rigid design:

    Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-turner-burner-650b-27.5-dw-link-frame-6-600x429.jpgChinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-turner-burner-post-mounts-600x400.jpg

    FYI, the images are from Just In: Turner Burner 650b Frame

    You have mentioned earlier that you had problems with the rear triangle. I am just wondering if I got an old production unit or is this the latest version.

    At this moment I am nmot feeling comfortable using this frame from the constant fear that it will fall apart under me.

    I am not sure if there is a short term solution for this as I think the rear triangle design has to be radically changed.

    The bike is not assembled yet so if you can not provide a reasonable solution to the above problems, I am ready to return it to you for a full refund.

    -------------

    Awaiting for a resolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by peterque View Post
    Great news for IP-136 hadrtail frame and IP-156 full suspension 650b frame. Now we make these two frames swappable 135mm QR and 142mm axle dropouts.

    Attached some pictures for reference.

    Email: peter@xmiplay.cn
    Skype: peterque520
    Website: Xiamen Iplay Sporting Goods Co.,Ltd.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-turner-burner-650b-27.5-dw-link-frame-6.jpg  


  79. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by halyho View Post
    Hi Peter,

    I am not sure what company you are with, but I bought a frame from HongFu Bikes (FM-156) that looks just like this. I also have the same derailleur hanger pictured by you. I hope you and Nancy will pay attention to this :-)
    ...
    Awaiting for a resolution.
    Have you received a response about this? I'm interested in this same frame but don't want to end up with the same issue.

  80. #180
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    Not yet; it's late in China; I will give and update. I really like the frame other then this unfortunate issue. But a frame is only as strong as the weakest point. Just like chains :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by illegalsmile View Post
    Have you received a response about this? I'm interested in this same frame but don't want to end up with the same issue.

  81. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by halyho View Post
    Hi Peter,

    I am not sure what company you are with, but I bought a frame from HongFu Bikes (FM-156) that looks just like this. I also have the same derailleur hanger pictured by you. I hope you and Nancy will pay attention to this :-)

    I have a problem with he design and I am just copying the the email I have sent to Nancy Huang at sales04@hongfu-bikes.cn:
    Hello halyho,

    Thanks for your questions! I work for Xiamen Iplay sporting Goods Co.,Ltd, not for HongFu bikes, but we do sell a few same frames.

    1. I think Nancy will solve the issue well. She will deliver your questions to factory first and see what the problem is.

    2. Once she gets the answer from factory, she will be back to you in time and tell you how to solve this.

    3. I think HongFu is a responsible company known by most people and has good reputation, I think you can trust them and see what will happen next.

    Sorry, now IP-156 frame rear dropout design is same, but I have never seen this problem before. I want to know what they gonna say too.

    Maybe you can ask someone who bought this frame before, see if they have this same problem or not. I will help you to ask factory also, as soon as I know the answer I will let you know. But now is weekend in China, I hope you could be a little patient.

    Email: peter@xmiplay.cn
    Skype: peterque520
    Website: Xiamen Iplay Sporting Goods Co.,Ltd.
    Xiamen Iplay Sporting Goods Co., Ltd. - Seat Post,Cartridge Headset

  82. #182
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    The frame I have on order has this same dropout system and it looked a little sketchy to me. I'm using a QR setup with a flexyish wheel on a hardtail so I probably won't push it enough to make this the weak link but if I had a thru-axle on a suspension frame I'd expect to have more flex in that spot than on another 142 frame.
    Keep the Country country.

  83. #183
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    If the QR works there is no reason that the 12mm axle not to

    try to use carbon assembly paste just to be sure and the correct of the alxe will do the job

    if you manage to crack it good guy Peter or Nancy must replace the frame in warranty due to bad system design (i don't see any bad )

    Kudos to Peter for service level 9000

  84. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by morphtcat View Post
    Just joined so that I can post about my new-to-me Hongfu FM-136. My background: I grew up riding bikes and then took a 20 year hiatus from it. I got back into it by doing triathlons and road racing since 2007 and then started doing cyclocross a few years ago. Discovered that I preferred that to road racing and noodled on the idea of getting an MTB for a long time. Because I research everything to death, I decided to wait until I could get a 650B bike built.

    After looking around a lot and reading a lot of the discussion here on the Hongfu FM-136, I opted to take the plunge and get one. I've attached a picture of my bike that I just completed on Saturday.

    The build is:

    Hongfu FM-136 650B frame in size 18 (I'm 5'10 with a 31.5" inseam), 1050grams as weighed by my not-so-precise scale
    90mm 6 degree rise stem
    Rockshox Revelation XX 650B fork - they have 100mm travel, and the frame was designed for 100mm travel
    light-bicycle.com 25mm rim 650B tubeless ready wheels with 15QR, 32 spoke count, novatec hubs, weighed in at 1525 grams
    SRAM XO 2x10 42/28 175mm crank with 11-36 cassette, type 2 rear derailleur
    Schwalbe Rocket Ron 650B 2.25" tires, tubeless
    Selle San Marco Aspide Arrowhead saddle

    The build took me about a week to complete, which was more a function of me taking my time because I'm unfamiliar with building MTBs (I've built about 6 bikes, all of them road bikes and those typically take me about 1-2 days). I had to learn about

    The only things I had an issue with were (1) one of the holes on the stem wasn't threaded, so I had to thread that with a tap. Similarly, one of the holes for the rear disc brake mount wasn't threaded, so I had to thread that. Given the small spaces there, that was a PITA, but not insurmountable.

    Threading the rear brake cable through the frame was trivial. Bleeding the brake was equally trivial and took me < 30 minutes. Given that it was the 1st time I'd ever bled a hydraulic brake, I think that the next time would be faster.

    I'm not sure that I'm the right person to comment on ride harshness given that my only reference point is riding a cyclocross bike on MTB trails (insanely jarring, btw). While the FM-136 is much, much smoother than the CX bike, bumps aren't eliminated - you still feel them. I'm still tuning my suspension and tire pressure, so that's probably still a huge factor. That said, the bike is super controllable and predictable. The geometry is perfect for me and for my intent (XC racing). It rails around corners like there's no tomorrow - I can go around tight twisty singletrack much, much faster than on my CX bike, and that's not because of the suspension.

    Anyways, I'm incredibly impressed with the build quality of the frame and the responsiveness of the thing. Right now I can't find anything about it that I don't like other than the fact that a single-bolt seat post is probably not the best choice for a MTB - it doesn't stay horizontal.

    With that said, here's the pic:

    [Umm, apparently you can't post the link when you have < 10 posts. Super]

    OK, maybe a gallery pic will work?

    Nope, apparently not. Gngngngn.

    very nice build! Do you have the total amount that you paid for all that?

  85. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by champsk View Post
    very nice build! Do you have the total amount that you paid for all that?
    We have IP-136 (FM136) in stock now. If you had interest please feel free to contact me.

    Email: peter@xmiplay.cn
    Skype: peterque520
    Website: www.xmiplay.com

  86. #186
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    Hi Peter,

    Thank you so much for your response; I appreciate your concern despite I did not buy the frame from you.

    Nancy asked me to send pictures of the dropout on the other side (that I did; similar problems). Her response is:

    -------- quote -------------

    thank you for your all information.

    the frame FM156 all is the design like I sent to you.
    because the frame can be 135QR and 142mm Axle interchanged.
    the one send to me(the picture) is just can be 142mm Axle.
    and you can also check in our website,the description and the picture all can show that.

    if you choose 135mm QR,it is the one in our website.choosen 142mm Axle,it is the one that I send to you.

    any further questions,please let me know.

    -------- quote -------------


    Well, I did not get too much of an answer; engineering or manufacturing is obviously not involved in the loop and I see no good will to take care of the problems. Considering that I have waited more then 2 months for the delivery I certainly expected at least a sensible answer. What a waste of time.

    Too bad actually because a properly implemented 142x12 axle solution would take this frame a long way.

    I will arrange for the return of the frame; I hope among Paypal and Amex won't have any problem with the refund.

    Peter, thanks and good luck and I hope you guys will sort out the problems.

  87. #187
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    My point is that the 12mm axle requires a different design to provide an inherently stiffer solution and more reliable wheel retention. I don't have any problem with the design for the QR dropout and my expectations are accordingly a lot lower. However, I would not have considered a QR axle for a FS carbon frame.

    Thanks for your suggestion regarding the repair but I would rather not go that way. I think a metal insert of some sort is needed for a proper solution for this frame.

    Regarding cracking the frame: I am too old to be a test medium, sorry pal.

    You're right about Peter; good service, the Shimano axle will fit (however, no answer to my question regarding the set screw).

    Quote Originally Posted by em2 View Post
    If the QR works there is no reason that the 12mm axle not to

    try to use carbon assembly paste just to be sure and the correct of the alxe will do the job

    if you manage to crack it good guy Peter or Nancy must replace the frame in warranty due to bad system design (i don't see any bad )

    Kudos to Peter for service level 9000

  88. #188
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    A lot of properly implemented design changes would take this frame a long way, but for $350 a lot can be looked over.

    This is a good "upgrade" frame, because it allow you to use your current wheels, but would allow you to upgrade to 12x142 later on. Not perfect, but by the time you upgrade again I'm sure changes will be made.

    The design of these frames is not to compete with $1500+ frames, it designed to be high volume, easy to sell, cheap frames that many Americans are willing to sacrifice customer service, quick ship time, and many design features to purchase for $350.

    Many in this forum purchase these frames knowing there will be problems, knowing there will be funky designs and slow ship times, and there are multitudes of pictures of every little detail imaginable, so I cannot see how anyone could read this thread, purchase a frame, only to send it back because they were expecting $1500 quality.

    This isn't to say that the Chinese manufactures who produce these frames should listen to their customers, because issues like these obviously are important, but to bash the sellers is like purchasing a Kia and expecting a Mercedes.
    GIS/GPS Pro using ArcFM for Utility Mapping - Always willing to connect with other MTBers in the industry.

  89. #189
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    Sorry, I think I have replied to the wrong thread. You are talking about a $350 hardtail, while I am discussing the $700 (+$100 shipping) FS frame.

    While at it, if I add the $400 frame shock, I am at $1,100 that is now comparable to frames in the $2k+ range with excellent resale value and retail service. Buying direct and forgoing marketing and brand value we are comparing now apples to apples and my expectations are all of a sudden a lot higher. As a minimum, I would expect proper engineering by any company who is putting a frame under my butt. I can work around schedule, features and manufacturing problems, no problem.

    Regarding bashing, I was extremely tolerant with HongFu bikes (as you might see from my previous posts); also spared other details from the group. However, when it comes to commitment and standing behind a product, I don't see any reason to differentiate between any company. I am sure, the situation would be different in an OEM relationship (I guess the majority of manufacturer's business) where the larger order would direct the attention to the right place.

    Needless to say I am not happy that I am sending the frame back just before building. Many of the $4K I have spent on components need to be changed now to adopted to a new frame.

    Nevertheless I feel fortunate enough to be able to use this forum to provide feedback to future purchasers and to voice my point of view/opinion among the many.

    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    A lot of properly implemented design changes would take this frame a long way, but for $350 a lot can be looked over.

    This is a good "upgrade" frame, because it allow you to use your current wheels, but would allow you to upgrade to 12x142 later on. Not perfect, but by the time you upgrade again I'm sure changes will be made.

    The design of these frames is not to compete with $1500+ frames, it designed to be high volume, easy to sell, cheap frames that many Americans are willing to sacrifice customer service, quick ship time, and many design features to purchase for $350.

    Many in this forum purchase these frames knowing there will be problems, knowing there will be funky designs and slow ship times, and there are multitudes of pictures of every little detail imaginable, so I cannot see how anyone could read this thread, purchase a frame, only to send it back because they were expecting $1500 quality.

    This isn't to say that the Chinese manufactures who produce these frames should listen to their customers, because issues like these obviously are important, but to bash the sellers is like purchasing a Kia and expecting a Mercedes.

  90. #190
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    Do you have any suggestions on how a proper interchangeable drop-out should look?

    Maybe we can croud-source a design alternative for the Chinese.
    GIS/GPS Pro using ArcFM for Utility Mapping - Always willing to connect with other MTBers in the industry.

  91. #191
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    If it were my frame, I'd sand any clear coat off the tab that the hanger "attaches" to then epoxy the hanger to the tab with some quality epoxy. Then I'd ride the snot out of it.

    In my opinion, the value of your time taken to try to send it back to get a refund will rapidly approach the cost of the frame. I've purchased a factory-backdoor road frame and 3 sets of Chinese carbon wheels and my experience is that getting a refund is damn near impossible. You can get exchanges relatively easily but getting your money back will be a challenge.
    www.msmtb.org - Mississippi Mountain Biking

  92. #192
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    That is an excellent idea, but not trivial. Things are crowded on the FM-156 frame because of the rear pivot point.

    A new design would require 2 changes:

    (1) Embed/replace a machined alloy plate as a structural part of the carbon fiber chain-stay
    (2) Redesign or use an existing dropout that attaches to the embedded plate using a locking design and/or properly sized (torque-able) screws.

    Here is an example dropout that would possibly work:

    www.paragonmachineworks.com - B4030RightSideInsertforRockerDropoutHangerShimano1 42x12Skewer

    Please note the pin and the two sizable attachment screws. Guessing that the upper contour will provide additional positive lock.

    Anyhow, the manufacturer must be involved one or other way to implement something similar.

    Please let me know what you think!

    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    Do you have any suggestions on how a proper interchangeable drop-out should look?

    Maybe we can croud-source a design alternative for the Chinese.

  93. #193
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    Your advice is well taken -- I hope I don't have to resort to the epoxy route. I still hope to have a solution from the MFG-er after all this fuzz...

    Quote Originally Posted by ohpossum View Post
    If it were my frame, I'd sand any clear coat off the tab that the hanger "attaches" to then epoxy the hanger to the tab with some quality epoxy. Then I'd ride the snot out of it.

    In my opinion, the value of your time taken to try to send it back to get a refund will rapidly approach the cost of the frame. I've purchased a factory-backdoor road frame and 3 sets of Chinese carbon wheels and my experience is that getting a refund is damn near impossible. You can get exchanges relatively easily but getting your money back will be a challenge.

  94. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by halyho View Post
    Hi Peter,

    Thank you so much for your response; I appreciate your concern despite I did not buy the frame from you.

    Nancy asked me to send pictures of the dropout on the other side (that I did; similar problems). Her response is:

    -------- quote -------------

    thank you for your all information.

    the frame FM156 all is the design like I sent to you.
    because the frame can be 135QR and 142mm Axle interchanged.
    the one send to me(the picture) is just can be 142mm Axle.
    and you can also check in our website,the description and the picture all can show that.

    if you choose 135mm QR,it is the one in our website.choosen 142mm Axle,it is the one that I send to you.

    any further questions,please let me know.

    -------- quote -------------


    Well, I did not get too much of an answer; engineering or manufacturing is obviously not involved in the loop and I see no good will to take care of the problems. Considering that I have waited more then 2 months for the delivery I certainly expected at least a sensible answer. What a waste of time.

    Too bad actually because a properly implemented 142x12 axle solution would take this frame a long way.

    I will arrange for the return of the frame; I hope among Paypal and Amex won't have any problem with the refund.

    Peter, thanks and good luck and I hope you guys will sort out the problems.
    Hello Halyho,

    If possible. Could you dismount the dropouts (both left and right pieces)? And take some pictures and send them to my email ? My concern is maybe the left side piece is not matching for your right dropout.

    Thanks and Regards,
    Peter

    Email: peter@xmiplay.cn
    Skype: peterque520
    Website: Xiamen Iplay Sporting Goods Co.,Ltd.

  95. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by halyho View Post
    A new design would require 2 changes:

    (1) Embed/replace a machined alloy plate as a structural part of the carbon fiber chain-stay
    (2) Redesign or use an existing dropout that attaches to the embedded plate using a locking design and/or properly sized (torque-able) screws.

    Here is an example dropout that would possibly work:

    www.paragonmachineworks.com - B4030RightSideInsertforRockerDropoutHangerShimano1 42x12Skewer

    Please note the pin and the two sizable attachment screws. Guessing that the upper contour will provide additional positive lock.
    Also realize that the Paragon Dropout acts as the rear drop out completely, and in some cases forms the joint between the chainstay and seatstay. Without the Paragon Dropout, a frame designed for it would have nothing to catch or hold any type of axle. It needs those sizable bolts because without those bolts the whole assembly would just fall off the back of the bike.

    Additionally, take a look at most sliding drop outs. They usually feature to small 10mm bolts that hold both sides on the bike. Granted these are usually on hard tails, but from the looks of it, those bolts seems quite small to hold the entire dropout assembly on the bike, but manufacturers such a Kona run them without issue.

    If we compare these two dropout styles to those on the Chinese frames, the Chinese frames are designed a bit differently. Remove the "convertible" dropouts and you'll notice the frame has an "unfinished" dropout that actually holds the bolt-on assembly. Most of the stress is probably on that piece of the frame rather than on the bolts themselves.

    I'd like to see larger fastening bolts on the drop-outs, and maybe like you said a larger dropout piece in general with metal attachment points on the frame, but I'm not sure I'd consider the Chinese frame anymore unsafe than others on the market.
    GIS/GPS Pro using ArcFM for Utility Mapping - Always willing to connect with other MTBers in the industry.

  96. #196
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    Good points. Please consider that the most crucial aspect in the Chinese design is the carbon fiber tab holding the dropout.

    Carbon fibers are strong only in one direction: tension along the fiber. They are not able to carry compressive and bending load. Compression is absorbed by the filling resin and is subject to creep and fatigue due to the constant pressure exerted by the hub axles and the additional bending forces due to dynamic side load (cornering etc...).

    To deal with the compression and bending load you need a metal insert that will properly transfer the forces to the frame. That is the precise reason you will find a metal tube/junction insert in the bottom bracket and suspension links on carbon fiber frames.

    Attaching a dropout to a metal plate is a lot easier engineering task now and it's really hard to screw up (but can be done :-).

    As a general remark, QR worked well for a long time. However, as technology advances, we are expecting more and more from our bikes. There is now no clear distinction between trail and XC bikes; the modern tires, strong wheels, light and strong forks, shocks and brakes enable easy climbing and brave descent. That is the reason we have the new, strong 150/142/135/12/20 axles and need to pay attention to good frame design details.

    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    Also realize that the Paragon Dropout acts as the rear drop out completely, and in some cases forms the joint between the chainstay and seatstay. Without the Paragon Dropout, a frame designed for it would have nothing to catch or hold any type of axle. It needs those sizable bolts because without those bolts the whole assembly would just fall off the back of the bike.

    Additionally, take a look at most sliding drop outs. They usually feature to small 10mm bolts that hold both sides on the bike. Granted these are usually on hard tails, but from the looks of it, those bolts seems quite small to hold the entire dropout assembly on the bike, but manufacturers such a Kona run them without issue.

    If we compare these two dropout styles to those on the Chinese frames, the Chinese frames are designed a bit differently. Remove the "convertible" dropouts and you'll notice the frame has an "unfinished" dropout that actually holds the bolt-on assembly. Most of the stress is probably on that piece of the frame rather than on the bolts themselves.

    I'd like to see larger fastening bolts on the drop-outs, and maybe like you said a larger dropout piece in general with metal attachment points on the frame, but I'm not sure I'd consider the Chinese frame anymore unsafe than others on the market.

  97. #197
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    Just looking at my wife's 2001 Trac carbon hardtale, realized that proper dropout design has been figured out already. Please pay attention to the metal portion of the frame.
    Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-dsc_0097.jpgChinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-dsc_0098.jpgChinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition-dsc_0099.jpg

  98. #198
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    Update to the group about HongFu's feedback regarding my request to return the frame:

    -------- quote from Nancy -------------
    I had send your picture to our engineer,and have no problem in the picutre,
    you said is our design is bad.but all is the same design,and a lot of frame had shipped out,have no feedback is the design have problem,
    if not the quality problem,I accept you reback to me,
    but the ship cost we will not responsible for it.
    if it is the quality problem,we will responsible for it in 2 years.
    -------- quote -------------


    The way I understand is they are willing to take back the frame, but are not willing to pay for the shipping charges (not sure if both or one way).

    I did not get any feedback regarding my engineering arguments and not sure if Nancy was communicating it correctly to whoever is the manufacturer or engineer in charge. They are certainly not open to make any changes as I read it from the answer. The argument of having the same design for many frames does not fly with me. They just might have a bigger problem.

    Might as well send back the frame, cut my losses and go for the Intense Carbide 275 (have an offer for $2600, including tax, shock and axle).

  99. #199
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    What you are experiencing is just what one would expect from "copycat" Chinese production. Zero R&D, copy (read...steal) popular frame design, and the hell with providing customer service. It will cost you (and your children) in the long run.

  100. #200
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    Re: Chinese Carbon Frames - 650b edition

    I've been dealing with a lot of different Chinese companies, purchasing different technical products and materials, but never bicycles or bicycle parts.

    The e-mails above look very familiar. Chinese companies are currently trying very hard but their product quality is not quite there yet. I have never got a refund on anything and the companies always say that you are the only one with this issue. They are very good with e-mails but that's about it. Most of the people you deal with in English are agents possibly working for many different companies not necessarily understanding much on the product itself.

    Just from my experience, if you ordrer anything from China, there's a 10% chance you get what you wanted and 100% chance you won't get a refund if it's not.

    I'm now purchasing very little stuff from China and after all the time wasted concentrate on other countries instead. In fairness I have to say that there still are two great companies from China I still work with, but that must be the 10%.

    If you can't afford to buy a replacement for the one you are planning to buy from China in case it turns out to be crap, don't waste your money but buy something from closer to home.

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