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  1. #1
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    Better Hardtail or Entry level full squish?

    recently i've come to the conclusion that if i want to get a new bike it will either have to be a lower end full suspension or a aggressive hardtail.

    hardtails may be less capable in some areas but they provide more bang for the buck, which is a great virtue since im not old enough to actually get a job. i was thinking that the new marin san quentin 1, ragley marley 2.0, and 2019 raliegh tokul 3.

    would it be worth it to get a hardtail? im upgrading from a REI drt XC bike which isn't suited for the steep and technical trails i ride. for more context im located in the general north-shore-washington area. i ride almost twice a week, and im usually hitting 2 or 3 black diamond tech trail each time, and my bike isn't keeping up.
    i also love to ride at my local dirt jumps, which would suite the san quentin. one other quality i'd like in a hardtail is something that still climbs, as i gotta get up to the top of the trails
    Last edited by The_Granny_Gear; 03-16-2020 at 04:34 PM.
    If You didn't start on a Hardtail you're doing it Wrong

  2. #2
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    If your price point is the San Quentin 3, check out this FS bargain with practically the same components...
    https://www.bikesonline.com/polygon-...-mountain-bike

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    Quote Originally Posted by Undescended View Post
    If your price point is the San Quentin 3, check out this FS bargain with practically the same components...
    https://www.bikesonline.com/polygon-...-mountain-bike
    if i had the price point of 1800 i would go ahead and get a full squish, what i meant was actually the san quentin 1 or 2. porbably should have mentioned that
    If You didn't start on a Hardtail you're doing it Wrong

  4. #4
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    I wouldnít hesitate to get a hardtail. Also check out the Kona Honzo. I just bought a 2019 one for $1100 brand new. The fork is nothing too special, but it does the job for now, and Iíll upgrade it later. The same would be true if that Marin; you can ride it right away and itíll be a big improvement over what youíve already got, and you can slowly build it into a really nice bike over time.

    With 29Ē wheels and 2.4 tires or 27.5s with even wider, more voluminous tires, it really takes the edge off.

    Also, the main thing holding back those older XC hardtails was geometry. My Honzo is a ripper. Iím going to Moab in a couple days and intend to ride Captain Ahab on it. That is an abusively gnarly trail in a lot of spots. I will report back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cookieMonster View Post
    I wouldnít hesitate to get a hardtail. Also check out the Kona Honzo. I just bought a 2019 one for $1100 brand new. The fork is nothing too special, but it does the job for now, and Iíll upgrade it later. The same would be true if that Marin; you can ride it right away and itíll be a big improvement over what youíve already got, and you can slowly build it into a really nice bike over time.

    With 29Ē wheels and 2.4 tires or 27.5s with even wider, more voluminous tires, it really takes the edge off.

    Also, the main thing holding back those older XC hardtails was geometry. My Honzo is a ripper. Iím going to Moab in a couple days and intend to ride Captain Ahab on it. That is an abusively gnarly trail in a lot of spots. I will report back.
    im interested about how you ride will go, but im more interested at the idea of a 29in wheels. since none of my friends ride them i don't know how they are, or how they jump. it'd be interesting to find out!
    If You didn't start on a Hardtail you're doing it Wrong

  6. #6
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    Hardtails are great. I would be on one if my old back and ass could take it. At my age I need full squish.

  7. #7
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    Get the hardtail because the fork and components will be of higher quality plus there is less to maintain. A year from now if you want a full squish then just upgrade the frame. Most low end hardtails don't charge much for the frame. Also check out vitus sentier.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Granny_Gear View Post
    im interested about how you ride will go, but im more interested at the idea of a 29in wheels. since none of my friends ride them i don't know how they are, or how they jump. it'd be interesting to find out!

    Well, 29" wheels definitely roll over gnar with a lot more ease and speed, and less suspension travel is needed to do it. However, I can't say that I've ever been as excited about how 29ers feel on jumps. 26ers and 27.5ers definitely feel more agile both on the lips of jumps and the air. However, it's something you can get used to on a 29" wheel. I prefer smaller for that, and if I was doing dirt jumps a lot, I'd likely have a dedicated dirt jumping bike with 26" wheels.
    I only ride loam:)

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by cookieMonster View Post
    I wouldnít hesitate to get a hardtail. Also check out the Kona Honzo. I just bought a 2019 one for $1100 brand new. The fork is nothing too special, but it does the job for now, and Iíll upgrade it later. The same would be true if that Marin; you can ride it right away and itíll be a big improvement over what youíve already got, and you can slowly build it into a really nice bike over time.

    With 29Ē wheels and 2.4 tires or 27.5s with even wider, more voluminous tires, it really takes the edge off.

    Also, the main thing holding back those older XC hardtails was geometry. My Honzo is a ripper. Iím going to Moab in a couple days and intend to ride Captain Ahab on it. That is an abusively gnarly trail in a lot of spots. I will report back.
    I love my Honzo and ride it everywhere that I ride my Druid. The Honzo is DIALLED and is an absolute joy to ride. There have been times when I have thought that I could easily get away with my Honzo as my only bike (come to think of it, I also often think that about the Druid too).

    I did swap the fork for a 140mm though...
    2020 Kona Unit
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    2018 Kona Honzo ST 30th BDay SE
    2015 Kona Paddy Wagon Fixed Gear

  10. #10
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    You can find nice chromag stylus for under a grand on pink bike classifieds.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Granny_Gear View Post
    im interested about how you ride will go, but im more interested at the idea of a 29in wheels. since none of my friends ride them i don't know how they are, or how they jump. it'd be interesting to find out!
    If you like to DJ, then you'll be better off with a 27.5 HT. Hell, you'd be better off with a 26er HT. 29ers don't DJ very well, especially on DJ designed trails.

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    https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2711856/
    This Norco Torrent is local to you.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy G. Parrish View Post
    If you like to DJ, then you'll be better off with a 27.5 HT. Hell, you'd be better off with a 26er HT. 29ers don't DJ very well, especially on DJ designed trails.
    I have a 29er with a 1270mm wheelbase, and i prefer jumping it to my 650b hardtail. It took a little to learn the timing (and yah, it's not great on pucky jumps), but it's suuuper forgiving.

    I'm 6'3; i'm sure it's different for shorties.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    I have a 29er with a 1270mm wheelbase, and i prefer jumping it to my 650b hardtail. It took a little to learn the timing (and yah, it's not great on pucky jumps), but it's suuuper forgiving.

    I'm 6'3; i'm sure it's different for shorties.
    Yeah, person size makes a difference. I'm 5'8" and my 26er works better for me than my 27.5. Bigger riders may find 29ers easier to whip around.

  15. #15
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    Some others to check out:

    Kona Blast
    Norco Fluid HT

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    I have a 29er with a 1270mm wheelbase, and i prefer jumping it to my 650b hardtail. It took a little to learn the timing (and yah, it's not great on pucky jumps), but it's suuuper forgiving.

    I'm 6'3; i'm sure it's different for shorties.
    size does matter for this, and i fit most bikes small or medium sizes. my current is a medium but i think a small would be better for riding. i'll consider 29ers, but i like the 27.5 size so ill see.
    If You didn't start on a Hardtail you're doing it Wrong

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Granny_Gear View Post
    size does matter for this, and i fit most bikes small or medium sizes. my current is a medium but i think a small would be better for riding. i'll consider 29ers, but i like the 27.5 size so ill see.
    IMO the difference of opinion between 27/29 has more to do with rider height/fit around the larger wheels than some truth about wheel circumference.

    if you're small/medium i'd be looking REALLY hard at 275.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  18. #18
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    Giant gives pretty good bang for your buck in a hard tail in that price range.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzarkFathom View Post
    Giant gives pretty good bang for your buck in a hard tail in that price range.
    i've looked around at the newer ones, but they dont offer the agressive/ dj-like geometry as the others, they are cheap so ill keep them in mind
    If You didn't start on a Hardtail you're doing it Wrong

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Granny_Gear View Post
    i've looked around at the newer ones, but they dont offer the agressive/ dj-like geometry as the others, they are cheap so ill keep them in mind
    I haven't been following dirt jumpers, but historically aggressive/dj-like are opposite things.

    dirt jumpers tend to have a wheelbase ~4" shorter than an aggro mtb. That's enormous.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  22. #22
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    I used to be a Giant rider and thought they had the best bang for the buck. I still believe they are a good buy but I recently got a Salsa Timberjack for my girl and have been enjoying it and itís not that much of a difference than a comparable Giant.


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  23. #23
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    New Norco Fluid FS3 is in your price point and would be a good start in full squish.
    Fluid FS 3 2020 | Norco Bicycles
    https://www.norco.com/bikes/2020/mou...um/fluid-fs-3/
    Ripley V1 XC/Gravel Adventure rig
    NINER Rip9 RDO(future...)
    Salsa Timberjack

  24. #24
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    That Sentier 27 has really capable geo (similar to San Quentin), much shorter chainstays than the 29er version, and is a great value, not really screaming for any upgrades. Less money spent in the long run, and fewer bad habits cultivated regarding window shopping and hotrodding. More time riding, being satisfied. Mainstream level FS would be the next step (2500+).

    10-15mm in excessively long (or excessively short) CSL more than breaks deals for me, considering what kind of bike handling I want (not a cruiser). 29 vs 27.5, not so much. If 29er was a must-have on the checklist, Honzo's prob the cheapest I can think of. 2020 Spec Fuze kind of pricey.

    The San Quentin 3 is like the Nucleus 27. Lack of tubeless compatibility on top of being QR rear really drives up the time, money, and sanity costs in the long run. I would be so frustrated with such an ownership experience that I doubt they could even pay me to live with it. I admit that I've been spoiled by all the existing tech, though (e.g. 1x drivetrain *with* RD clutch).
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Granny_Gear View Post
    im interested about how you ride will go, but im more interested at the idea of a 29in wheels. since none of my friends ride them i don't know how they are, or how they jump. it'd be interesting to find out!
    I did Ahab today. Cleaned all of the descent on the Honzo. \m/. One of the best rides of my life, honestly.

    Really, it was eye opening. There is nothing that gnarly in my state, except for at lift-served resorts. All of the most techy, steep lines were rollable. I might have felt different if some of them were mandatory drops ó that hurts on an HT. It was very enjoyable though. I wouldnít say I was flying through the chunk by any means, just picking good lines and maintaining flow. I got one puncture toward the end, but it was on a high speed up over a ledge and my rear tire slammed a square edged rock. I donít know how fast I compared to others because Strava failed to track the Ahab portion of the ride unfortunately. It definitely wasnít slow. I got a PR on the Amasa climb though.

    Hardtails are still relevant. Back home Iím going to be real fast on the Honzo.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    That Sentier 27 has really capable geo (similar to San Quentin), much shorter chainstays than the 29er version, and is a great value, not really screaming for any upgrades. Less money spent in the long run, and fewer bad habits cultivated regarding window shopping and hotrodding. More time riding, being satisfied. Mainstream level FS would be the next step (2500+).

    10-15mm in excessively long (or excessively short) CSL more than breaks deals for me, considering what kind of bike handling I want (not a cruiser). 29 vs 27.5, not so much. If 29er was a must-have on the checklist, Honzo's prob the cheapest I can think of. 2020 Spec Fuze kind of pricey.

    The San Quentin 3 is like the Nucleus 27. Lack of tubeless compatibility on top of being QR rear really drives up the time, money, and sanity costs in the long run. I would be so frustrated with such an ownership experience that I doubt they could even pay me to live with it. I admit that I've been spoiled by all the existing tech, though (e.g. 1x drivetrain *with* RD clutch).
    i like the idea of the sentier 27, but its still out of my price range, i was actually going to pick of a san quentin 1 and upgrade the fork when i have the time and resources. i want something that rides stable on rocky terrain but can jump better than an entry-level xc hardtail
    If You didn't start on a Hardtail you're doing it Wrong

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by cookieMonster View Post
    I did Ahab today. Cleaned all of the descent on the Honzo. \m/. One of the best rides of my life, honestly.

    Really, it was eye opening. There is nothing that gnarly in my state, except for at lift-served resorts. All of the most techy, steep lines were rollable. I might have felt different if some of them were mandatory drops ó that hurts on an HT. It was very enjoyable though. I wouldnít say I was flying through the chunk by any means, just picking good lines and maintaining flow. I got one puncture toward the end, but it was on a high speed up over a ledge and my rear tire slammed a square edged rock. I donít know how fast I compared to others because Strava failed to track the Ahab portion of the ride unfortunately. It definitely wasnít slow. I got a PR on the Amasa climb though.

    Hardtails are still relevant. Back home Iím going to be real fast on the Honzo.
    are you running tubeless? its reasurring to see someone on a hardtail actually shredding, since fs is so mainstream.
    If You didn't start on a Hardtail you're doing it Wrong

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Granny_Gear View Post
    are you running tubeless? its reasurring to see someone on a hardtail actually shredding, since fs is so mainstream.
    Yeah, running tubeless. But my rear tire is an Ardent Race 2.35, which is not ideal for Moab chunk, lol. I had it around 35psi to protect the rim. I would run 2.5 Minions with a cushcore in the rear if I was going to ride this kind of stuff often on an HT.

    Back home we have higher speed, loamier trails with some rocks and roots, but nothing with sustained extreme chunk like Ahab.

    I wouldnít be surprised if I get some PRs on descents this year, and beat my enduro bike times.

  29. #29
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    jensonusa has the 2019 GT Force Comp aluminum on sale for $1840. I was close to buying that bike but I went with the 2019 Commencal Meta AM v4.2 instead. So far loving the Meta v4.2, but it was $3000 compared to the GTs $1840.

    The GT Force is a 160/150 bike with some decent components for the price.

    I also have a DRT1.2 and both the Force and v4.2 are very similar body position wise from medium size to medium size, which is what I ride.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by cookieMonster View Post
    Yeah, running tubeless. But my rear tire is an Ardent Race 2.35, which is not ideal for Moab chunk, lol. I had it around 35psi to protect the rim. I would run 2.5 Minions with a cushcore in the rear if I was going to ride this kind of stuff often on an HT.

    Back home we have higher speed, loamier trails with some rocks and roots, but nothing with sustained extreme chunk like Ahab.

    I wouldnít be surprised if I get some PRs on descents this year, and beat my enduro bike times.
    I've run tubes for a while and haven't had issues, even when running them at 20 psi, i actually just got back from a ride and rode some double black diamond tech on a fs, but I like the way my hardtail felt on the berms and drops, it seems like hardtails are just a better ride on rough, rooty sections, which is weird. maybe it's just more experienced me riding old trails?
    If You didn't start on a Hardtail you're doing it Wrong

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Granny_Gear View Post
    I've run tubes for a while and haven't had issues, even when running them at 20 psi, i actually just got back from a ride and rode some double black diamond tech on a fs, but I like the way my hardtail felt on the berms and drops, it seems like hardtails are just a better ride on rough, rooty sections, which is weird. maybe it's just more experienced me riding old trails?
    -20psi tubes
    -double black diamonds
    -familiar hardtail seems better for rough terrain

    Dude pick 2.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Granny_Gear View Post
    I've run tubes for a while and haven't had issues, even when running them at 20 psi, i actually just got back from a ride and rode some double black diamond tech on a fs, but I like the way my hardtail felt on the berms and drops, it seems like hardtails are just a better ride on rough, rooty sections, which is weird. maybe it's just more experienced me riding old trails?
    I rode Ahab again today, and Jacksonís (nasty, exposed DH trail), but this time on my trusty old 180mm enduro/light DH bike. I canít say I had any more fun than yesterday on the Honzo. I suppose I took the nastiest sections a bit faster, but it wasnít necessarily more fun that way. And I didnít enjoy the climbing near as much.

    It took a little bit to get back used to having so much traveló didnít feel as connected to the trail. Still a great time, of course.

    Double-Black trails are different depending on where you are. Locally we have a few, but compared to what I rode today theyíre much higher speed with more high frequency chatter and steeper. I almost see a need for suspension more there. For the relatively slower speed but big chunk type trails I have to say a modern HT is pretty capable. Especially with 29Ē wheels.

  33. #33
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    Better Hardtail or Entry level full squish?

    I wouldnít expect Ahab to be a great test of FS vs hardtail. If you lift and pump you donít need much suspension at all to go fast. Relatively few broken rocks there. Just slab rollers, both up and down.

    Sure, there are alt lines where Iíd want a longer travel bike, but Iím only marginally faster on my older XC FS vs my hardtail. Now, comfort wise? Massive difference.




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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    -20psi tubes
    -double black diamonds
    -familiar hardtail seems better for rough terrain

    Dude pick 2.
    If they've been doing this for a while without issues, why should they pick? Is there an issue that hasn't occurred that they (and I) should be worried about? I hardtail with tubes too!
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Granny_Gear View Post
    I've run tubes for a while and haven't had issues, even when running them at 20 psi, i actually just got back from a ride and rode some double black diamond tech on a fs, but I like the way my hardtail felt on the berms and drops, it seems like hardtails are just a better ride on rough, rooty sections, which is weird. maybe it's just more experienced me riding old trails?
    Seriously, tubeless is great. Been using tubeless for quite some time and the biggest improvement isn't reduced tire pressures, either. My tire pressure varies more depending on tire casing and tire volume. Also, tire inserts that save the rim are bigger for allowing reduced pressures than tubes/no tubes. No, the biggest deal with tubeless is that you have MUCH reduced puncture frequency. And when you do, either the sealant deals with them or you can use a tire plug which is way faster than changing out a tube. I still keep a tube for emergencies, but using it is super rare.

    I'll definitely agree that double black means different things depending on where you are. Some places, I'll do double black no problem on whatever bike I've got. Others, I'm walking that $hit.

    I ride a rowdy hardtail that's VERY well-equipped and riding it on tech is different than a FS. Oh larger, well-spaced drops and things, mine feels really nice. On high-speed chatter, though, the lack of rear suspension becomes VERY apparent. Also on really nasty climbing tech, I notice the lack of rear suspension. Climbing really chunky stuff is harder on a hardtail. Thankfully, I don't have a ton of that where I ride, so I do okay. I have to either slow way down to avoid losing control, or I need to jump as much of the chatter as I can. The hardtail is certainly more sensitive to line selection than any FS I've ever ridden, too.

    I ride a medium frame in most bikes, and while my hardtail with big 29er wheels/tires is very stable in the air, it's definitely not ideal for being playful in the air, or getting max height off stuff.

    I did a much more xc-oriented ride a few days ago with some friends, and passed another group on the trail. One guy noticed my bike and was asking me about it. One of his questions was how my back feels, considering that there's a good bit of rough terrain where I ride. I don't have back problems, so my back doesn't care if I ride a hardtail or not. Riding big, rowdy stuff on the hardtail results in some fatigue/soreness in my legs from absorbing the terrain, but not once has my back ever been sore from riding anything.

    What it is, though, is definitely fun.

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