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  1. #1
    TNC
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    650B Ghetto tubeless...

    And I didn't die on today's ride.

    OK, Rainman...the job went fairly easily. I've done a million Stan's strips, but this was the first ghetto setup. The Blunt held the 24" tube quite well, and it wasn't hard getting the Neo mounted. The setup even aired up without any sealant in the tire. There definitely seems to be a better seal at the bead/rim interface. I put a little Stan's in and aired it up again...held pressure all night with no issue. I trimmed the excess tube material off with a replaceable blade hobby knife, and that went surprisingly easy. I did a decently long ride today on the Nomad and purposely tried to stuff the tire into corners and against rocks to see if any issues surfaced...so far so good.

    But Rainman...I have my lawyer on retainer for any future lawsuits.
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  2. #2
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    Ya beat me to it! I'll be trying ghetto rim-strips next time I change tires too. The 24" size appears to fit very well. Thanks for the pix!

  3. #3
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    That came out pretty clean in the end. Nice work.

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    Much easier mounting with two people. You can do it in < 5 minutes. Otherwise,

    It gets frustrating... atleast for me -

  5. #5
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    Good job! Good ....

    I think that it's the best way to do tubeless setups, personally. That little 24" split inner tube seems to hang onto the tires really well, for me. I've had no problems at all since I've been using this setup.
    As long as you use enough "padding' under the tube, the tire doesn't ever seem to get thrown off the rim. I've abused my ghetto setups and never once burped, or lost one off the rim yet.
    I hope you have the same success with yours.


    Rainman.
    It is inevitable ...

  6. #6
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    TNC - I just had a flashback looking at your tool chest...

    In a previous life, I used 2 cycle internal combustion to go on two wheels.

    Last bike was a Kawasaki KDX200. Last air-cooled year...'85 or '86?

    Someday, I'll get back to it...


    FWIW, I have a 24" tube ready to make the move to ghetto on my front Synergy.

  7. #7
    TNC
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    Lol!

    Quote Originally Posted by reformed roadie
    TNC - I just had a flashback looking at your tool chest...

    In a previous life, I used 2 cycle internal combustion to go on two wheels.

    Last bike was a Kawasaki KDX200. Last air-cooled year...'85 or '86?

    Someday, I'll get back to it...


    FWIW, I have a 24" tube ready to make the move to ghetto on my front Synergy.
    Yeah...the KDX 175/200/220 series was probably one of the best all-around dirt bikes for just about all forms of riding except racing in open desert and MX. I won a 2-day enduro competition on my last one...great bikes.

    Hey, good luck with your ghetto setup. It really was very easy. I thought it would be a little more difficult, but frankly it was a piece of cake. If this holds up, I'm gonna be one happy dude.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mario_a
    Much easier mounting with two people. You can do it in < 5 minutes. Otherwise,

    It gets frustrating... atleast for me -
    imho, yea, but that's a good thing. You want a tight fit.
    One thing that seems to help: Is putting a tube in overnight. I don't over-inflate as I don't wanna stretch the bead. The tire is formed well and stretched just a little.(did 2 last night without soap and water) If it is too difficult one thing that seems to always work is pull the tube all the way out of the way just in that one last spot u need to seat (from under the bead and rim). Use a plastic tire lever to pop it on (that way you do not nick the tube which is very likely if you don't move it.) Then, use the sections of seated tube on either side and pull the unseated section back into place while pinching the tire up and wiggling it back and forth. (be sure hands and tube are dry for grip) Also, you should even out the tube on each side all the way around before you inflate.
    Another, you can almost always get it on without a tire lever by twisting the tire casing and tube in unison. (Pulling the tube under the last part of the bead to be seated up hard and using it to leverage the bead over. (This method requires a bit more finger strength, but the ghetto tube hangin out can be your friend and it's worked out pretty well so far. )

  9. #9
    emtb.pl
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    TNC, how did you cut the excessive material?? How much did you cut?

  10. #10
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    I use a small sharp pair of scissors to trim the excess tube on my wheels. You usually end up with about 1cm or slightly less of tube sticking out of each side of the finished tire setup.

    R.

    Quote Originally Posted by krolik
    TNC, how did you cut the excessive material?? How much did you cut?
    It is inevitable ...

  11. #11
    emtb.pl
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman
    I use a small sharp pair of scissors to trim the excess tube on my wheels. You usually end up with about 1cm or slightly less of tube sticking out of each side of the finished tire setup.

    R.
    Thanks Rainman! This is why I am so surprised that I cannot see any on TNC's final pic
    Anyway, I'll be swaping back to the blunt to gain some peace of mind - that size of the 355 and my previous peels just keep me alerted:/ Although I do admit that there where no burps or peels or dents since I swapped to the rimstrip and I managed to dent a 819 and brake three dt champion spokes in the rear wheel in the meantime. The 355 stays true but just seems too shallow, just like the 819 does and the tire cannot track right unless you run crazy pressures. D3.1 is replacing the 819 and blunt will replace the 355. Both weight increases partly discounted by swapping to dt aerolite spokes.

  12. #12
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    No good Wheel weight...

    I gave up worrying about wheel weights once I started to seriously get into "all mountain" riding. My ideas changed somewhat after I dinged a few light weight wheel builds on rough rocky trails or landing jumps tweaked.
    Now days I just run whatever stands up to the punishment best.

    R.
    It is inevitable ...

  13. #13
    TNC
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    Utility knife

    Quote Originally Posted by krolik
    TNC, how did you cut the excessive material?? How much did you cut?
    krolik, I used a simple utility knife...the kind that you break off an end of the blade for a new section as it dulls. The process of trimming turned out to be extremely easy. I kept the wheel in a big Park truing stand and just pulled the flap of innertube out by hand...gently...and cut it off with the knife. Really pleasantly easy.

  14. #14
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    Have you tried mounting it with Stan's yellow tape?

  15. #15
    emtb.pl
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    My LT2 gained around two lbs from its birth (isn't that normal??) but it's a lot more stable and surefooted now. Plus it will transform to a new Nomad in April
    TNC, that is indeed a nice idea to pull this excessive bit!
    Nagaredama - forget the yellow tape only unless you're a 140lbs xc racer with good skills.

  16. #16
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    Yea, after sealing test, I was not really all that thrilled with the yellow tape compaired to the ghetto.
    I spoke at length with Stan's lead engineer the other day about several different things. For one, drilling out your rims for schrader or presta (not needed with Stans tiny bit inside for presta on some rims ) will not generally weaken the rim or void the warranty.
    But, the other things schrader/presta issues I mentioned in previous post appeared to be spot on including both versions sealing about equally and other misconceptions caused by mistakes made in prep; such as when injecting sealant. (when you think it's the size of the whole and it is really the bead in the way.)
    Anyway, the thing most interesting to me was why Stan's evaporates the way it does. It is chemically designed to for a the given rate to maintain it's effectiveness long-term. Adding slime changes that ratio.
    Btw, I tried a mix of large chunk (from the auto shop) slime with Stan's.....there must be some difference in the mix vs the bike tire version. So, it ruined my Stan's mix and seaped through some pretty tough sidewalls in 1 ride. (The call it slime right ?)
    To get everything copasetic I removed (what little was left after the ride.) and return to regular Stans. I will add a little chemically neutral glitter at some point. Also, as far as home brew in the USA, (liquid latex) it really seemed to be almost as expensive as Stan's over here (you can pick up Stan's pretty cheap.)

  17. #17
    TNC
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    Glitter

    Quote Originally Posted by glovemtb
    Yea, after sealing test, I was not really all that thrilled with the yellow tape compaired to the ghetto.
    I spoke at length with Stan's lead engineer the other day about several different things. For one, drilling out your rims for schrader or presta (not needed with Stans tiny bit inside for presta on some rims ) will not generally weaken the rim or void the warranty.
    But, the other things schrader/presta issues I mentioned in previous post appeared to be spot on including both versions sealing about equally and other misconceptions caused by mistakes made in prep; such as when injecting sealant. (when you think it's the size of the whole and it is really the bead in the way.)
    Anyway, the thing most interesting to me was why Stan's evaporates the way it does. It is chemically designed to for a the given rate to maintain it's effectiveness long-term. Adding slime changes that ratio.
    Btw, I tried a mix of large chunk (from the auto shop) slime with Stan's.....there must be some difference in the mix vs the bike tire version. So, it ruined my Stan's mix and seaped through some pretty tough sidewalls in 1 ride. (The call it slime right ?)
    To get everything copasetic I removed (what little was left after the ride.) and return to regular Stans. I will add a little chemically neutral glitter at some point. Also, as far as home brew in the USA, (liquid latex) it really seemed to be almost as expensive as Stan's over here (you can pick up Stan's pretty cheap.)
    I can see where that might be a good idea. I've actually been adding a tiny bit of corn meal in my tires when servicing with Stan's for the first time for quite a while...at least a year. I've only done this on the first service, and it seems to last until the tire is worn out. I can just add Stan's during the life of the tire as needed, but that tiny bit of corn meal lasts the entire time. It seems to me that any appropriate small amount of particulate helps the Stan's in some situations to plug holes. I used to have to make a small rubber plug out of an old inner tube occasionally to plug a larger hole that the Stan's wouldn't seal up completely. Since the corn meal deal, I haven't had to do that on any holes. We have tons of big cactus spines and mesquite thorns along with plenty of rock pokes here. Is this just luck, as far as how the corn meal might be working? I don't know...hard to qualify with certainty. Stan's does seem to benefit from some particulate matter in the mix, as they seem to already have "something" in there as added from the factory.

  18. #18
    emtb.pl
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    Is his just luck, as far as how the corn meal might be working? I don't know...hard to qualify with certainty. .
    Sounds like magicThad - plus you can dry it and feed when left alone in the desert
    Seriously though, there are some particles in Stan's, I mixed it with dried Hutchinson liquid with great success - it could seal a lot larger holes. Never thought of corn meal though - neat and sooooo green

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by krolik
    Nagaredama - forget the yellow tape only unless you're a 140lbs xc racer with good skills.
    I've had good luck with UST tires on non-UST rims and Stan's tape. Held up for a couple of trail rides and days of downhilling before I switched tires. I know nothing about the Panceti tires and their bead.

  20. #20
    TNC
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    26" or 650B?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaredama
    I've had good luck with UST tires on non-UST rims and Stan's tape. Held up for a couple of trail rides and days of downhilling before I switched tires. I know nothing about the Panceti tires and their bead.
    Were you referring to experiences running the yellow tape and 26" setups or some other 650B tire? Being that I'm not aware of any UST 650B tires at the moment, I'll assume you're talking other than 650B. This has been the dead horse I'm beating for quite some time. I use non-UST tires on 26" UST wheels and have never had a blowoff...and that's with no strip, tape, or anything...except sealant of course. I can see Stan's 26" wheels working just fine with nothing but the tape, as they seem to have an almost UST level of tire bead gripping integrity. There's just something not-quite-right yet about bead interface with either the rim or tires in 650B at the moment.

    On that issue...has anyone gotten to try the 650B Nevegals that are allegedly out now? If so how's the fit compared to mounting 26'er setups and has anyone tried it tubeless yet?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    Were you referring to experiences running the yellow tape and 26" setups or some other 650B tire? Being that I'm not aware of any UST 650B tires at the moment, I'll assume you're talking other than 650B. This has been the dead horse I'm beating for quite some time. I use non-UST tires on 26" UST wheels and have never had a blowoff...and that's with no strip, tape, or anything...except sealant of course. I can see Stan's 26" wheels working just fine with nothing but the tape, as they seem to have an almost UST level of tire bead gripping integrity. There's just something not-quite-right yet about bead interface with either the rim or tires in 650B at the moment.

    On that issue...has anyone gotten to try the 650B Nevegals that are allegedly out now? If so how's the fit compared to mounting 26'er setups and has anyone tried it tubeless yet?
    26" set-up. Hutchinson UST Octopus tires, duct tape, Stan's valve stem, Stan's juice, Mavic XM321 rims, and a small tires compressor. Inflated right up and the bead seated with a nice pop. Similar pop to my full UST set-up on my DH bike. I even had to do it twice since I mounted the tire backwards the first tire. Stan's tape should make it a lot easier. I had to patch the duct tape a couple of times.

  22. #22
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    Good job! Stans / Slime.

    That's very strange... because I and lots of other guys run Stans /Slime mixture without it reacting in any way with the Stans at all. The Stans sealant dries out too fast in the tires, which is why we use the Slime, to prolong the life of the sealant. I have seen a little seepage through the sidewalls of some tires from the EG in the Slime, but it's no big deal, and doesn't affect the sealant or the way it does the job of sealing.

    Of course the Slime changes the ratio of how the Stans evaporates in the tire, that's exactly the reason for adding the Slime to the Stans sealant .... to help prevent the Stans from drying out too fast.

    I was averaging around 3-4 months with straight Stans in the tires, with some Slime added I get 6-12 months depending on the weather before having to add more home brew. The thing that puzzles me the most about your post is the "reaction" between the Stans and the Slime. I currently have around 6 complete wheel sets filled with the home brew mix I use and also two containers of the same mix sitting in the fridge and none of these are "reacting" at all.

    Are you sure that something else apart from the Slime didn't contaminate your mixture? There are two reasons for using the Slime. One: It helps prevent the Stans drying out too fast. Two: It's cheap compared to the Stans. Having to replace Stans in all your wheels every few months becomes quite costly over a few seasons.


    As far as the Schrader / Presta valves go, i've tried both methods and my results have always been the same...the Schrader valves work better with Ghetto tubeless setups. YMMV.



    Rainman.


    Quote Originally Posted by glovemtb
    Yea, after sealing test, I was not really all that thrilled with the yellow tape compaired to the ghetto.
    I spoke at length with Stan's lead engineer the other day about several different things. For one, drilling out your rims for schrader or presta (not needed with Stans tiny bit inside for presta on some rims ) will not generally weaken the rim or void the warranty.
    But, the other things schrader/presta issues I mentioned in previous post appeared to be spot on including both versions sealing about equally and other misconceptions caused by mistakes made in prep; such as when injecting sealant. (when you think it's the size of the whole and it is really the bead in the way.)
    Anyway, the thing most interesting to me was why Stan's evaporates the way it does. It is chemically designed to for a the given rate to maintain it's effectiveness long-term. Adding slime changes that ratio.
    Btw, I tried a mix of large chunk (from the auto shop) slime with Stan's.....there must be some difference in the mix vs the bike tire version. So, it ruined my Stan's mix and seaped through some pretty tough sidewalls in 1 ride. (The call it slime right ?)
    To get everything copasetic I removed (what little was left after the ride.) and return to regular Stans. I will add a little chemically neutral glitter at some point. Also, as far as home brew in the USA, (liquid latex) it really seemed to be almost as expensive as Stan's over here (you can pick up Stan's pretty cheap.)
    It is inevitable ...

  23. #23
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    That's very strange... because I and lots of other guys run Stans /Slime mixture without it reacting in any way with the Stans at all. The Stans sealant dries out too fast in the tires, which is why we use the Slime, to prolong the life of the sealant. I have seen a little seepage through the sidewalls of some tires from the EG in the Slime, but it's no big deal, and doesn't affect the sealant or the way it does the job of sealing.
    As stated in the previous post it is supposed evaporate at a certain rate; again, as it ages, it gets less effective, since they invented the mix, I have to guess they are pretty accurate.
    Also, as stated in the post it was the automotive version, not the bike tire version. Also, the sidewalls were perfect (neos.) till adding the slime. I would not assume that leaking thru the sidewall is harmless. It could be, but it does not inspire confidence.
    Perhaps there was some other contaminant that reacted chemically once the slime was added> But as stated, twas fine prior to sliming it.
    What do you pay for Stans in Australia ? In US it really is not that expensive, even with the larger tire size. For 650b With 32 oz of Stans enough for roughly 6 bike applications at every 2 months or so, that should last almost a year. Then, I pick a bottle up for about 14 to 16 dollars here in the US. That's not very expensive in my check-book. (with Mold Builder Liquid Latex Rubber (16-oz) running about 16 bucks.)
    I suppose export duties. (I was paying allot more for tubes, prior to Stan's !!! I'm all for showing Stan's a little love. ; Without his support here in USA I would not be doing this. (US made popular as well as car, plane and 650b and 29er ) )
    Last edited by glovemtb; 02-21-2009 at 08:26 AM.

  24. #24
    TNC
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    Well, I spent 3 days out at that ranch that has been death on both of my previous tubeless NeoMoto setups, and this ghetto deal is still holding up. I thrashed this setup quite hard with no sign of a burp yet. Because of our severe lack of rain, the rocky terrain has gotten much worse...big, loose rocks everywhere. I hammered over them with the Nomad and never had any signs of trouble. To temp fate even further, I used the tire I peeled off the ZTR last time in that high speed bermed corner. Testing continues...so far, so good.

  25. #25
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    Good job! Ghetto..

    That's good to hear...I hope you continue to have success like I have.


    I haven't had a single problem with mine.


    R.
    It is inevitable ...

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    I ghetto'ed my Neo's on Blunts as well. It was an easy setup with zero complications. The tires aired up easily, and the Stan's sealed it quick. No leaks, no burps, no pealing, no blowoffs. I'm very confident in the setup now. Thanks for being the guinea pigs fellas!

  27. #27
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    I've ran two different tires using Ghetto and my own homebrew which includes Car tubeless Slime (which IS the same stuff and tubeless bike tire Slime...it has the same MSDS) and latex. The first tire set had very little if any noticeable sidewall seepage...the second has had quite a bit more.

    But both hold air just fine and I've had no flats so the seepage is of very little concern at this point.

    BTW-Of course Stans is going to discourage you from mixing Slime with their sealant to prolong its life! If its life is prolonged, they will sell less of it...DUH! Can't believe someone would fall for that blatant marketing speech.

  28. #28
    TNC
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    2 months later...

    Quote Originally Posted by 177ark
    I ghetto'ed my Neo's on Blunts as well. It was an easy setup with zero complications. The tires aired up easily, and the Stan's sealed it quick. No leaks, no burps, no pealing, no blowoffs. I'm very confident in the setup now. Thanks for being the guinea pigs fellas!
    And my ghetto tubeless is still going. This may be the ticket for the Blunt...and others.

  29. #29
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    no so lucky

    I couldn't get my Neo to seat and air-up on my Synergy.

    Not sure if it was the rim or the tire. The tire has been used a bit. The beed felt fairly loose going on and would not hold air at all...I wasn't going to add sealant until I got a sense that it wanted to seal or was close to sealing.

    I used a 24" presta tube, had the rim drilled, one layer of velox.

    Any suggestions? My feeling is that the tire bead stretched too much and won't work now.

    Has anyone tried the Nevegal or Racing Ralph?

  30. #30
    TNC
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    Quote Originally Posted by reformed roadie
    I couldn't get my Neo to seat and air-up on my Synergy.

    Not sure if it was the rim or the tire. The tire has been used a bit. The beed felt fairly loose going on and would not hold air at all...I wasn't going to add sealant until I got a sense that it wanted to seal or was close to sealing.

    I used a 24" presta tube, had the rim drilled, one layer of velox.

    Any suggestions? My feeling is that the tire bead stretched too much and won't work now.

    Has anyone tried the Nevegal or Racing Ralph?
    I even tempted fate on mine by using the Neo that blew off in January. It is quite used. rr, I'm surprised you had trouble getting the ghettoed Neo to pop up. Mine even popped up on the ghettoed Blunt without sealant and no wetting of the bead. When you have those big flaps off innertube hanging out over the rim, I don't see how your Neo wouldn't "jump up" on the bead.

    That said, mine is a Blunt, and it is a bit wider of course, so maybe that has something to do with it. I'm not claiming final victory yet, but this is longer than I've been able to run the Neo tubeless while doing lots of hard riding.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by reformed roadie
    I couldn't get my Neo to seat and air-up on my Synergy.

    Not sure if it was the rim or the tire. The tire has been used a bit. The beed felt fairly loose going on and would not hold air at all...I wasn't going to add sealant until I got a sense that it wanted to seal or was close to sealing.

    I used a 24" presta tube, had the rim drilled, one layer of velox.

    Any suggestions?
    Did you take the cores out first?

    Even with a compressor, the schrader or presta cores don't allow much air to flow through. This makes seating the beads very difficult. When you remove the cores and inflate straight through the stem, the tire will fully inflate in 5 seconds. Since there's no core, the tire will deflate the second you take the compressor nozzle away, but not before you hear the beads popping. Once the beads have popped, you're tire will hold air. Pour Stans through the open stem, then screw the valves back in. Since the beads have popped, you can easily inflate with a floor pump.

    I used to spend 15 minutes per tire trying to inflate through cores, but with the cores removed, I can do both tires in a minute or less. I've heard this trick everywhere but always skipped the step for some reason. Anyhow, if you already did it this way, sorry for an unecessary recap.

  32. #32
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    177ark, I've not had this issue using a compressor, but you're right. If you have a troublesome tire and rim combo, often pulling the core will help the tire "jump up" with better air flow.

  33. #33
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    177 & TNC (as always) thanks for the input.
    I have been flat free running so low pressures, so I may wait to revisit the Ghetto set-up till I get a new tire...

    Which brings me to my other question - anyone use something other than a Neo tubeless?

  34. #34
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    Good job! Ghetto ...

    I run all my tires the same way, and that includes 29'er and 26" tires ...

    Ghetto tubeless has really done the trick for me, I just stopped having any problems with tires and flats, burps etc once I changed over to this ghetto system.
    I can't remember when I had my last flat tire, it's been so long...

    I use Panaracer Rampage, Nevegals, Neo Moto and Quasi's and not a single problem.


    Rainman.
    It is inevitable ...

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by reformed roadie
    177 & TNC (as always) thanks for the input.
    I have been flat free running so low pressures, so I may wait to revisit the Ghetto set-up till I get a new tire...

    Which brings me to my other question - anyone use something other than a Neo tubeless?
    The guys at the shop are running the Quasi tubeless on their 650B ZTR's with only yellow tape and Stan's sealant and not one problem. These guys are very good racers and placing quite high. We even sold a set of 650B ZTR's with tires to another racer who had been keeping up with their results on the 650B setups. The Quasi is apparently turning out to be a very good tire, but it's not my thing for the Nomad. I'm still wanting to try a Nevegal at some point. I love the Neo though. I think it's going to be hard to beat for AM use.

  36. #36
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    True, although it has its limits in mud. I love it for dry 'california' conditions but running it in mud with a Fat Albert 2.4 SnakeSkin in the back means your front is wandering all over because rear gave you that confidence to go way too fast. FatAlbert 2.4 SS in the front makes it all calm again.
    I'd love the Nevegal to see how it goes.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    I've ran two different tires using Ghetto and my own homebrew which includes Car tubeless Slime (which IS the same stuff and tubeless bike tire Slime...it has the same MSDS) and latex. The first tire set had very little if any noticeable sidewall seepage...the second has had quite a bit more.

    But both hold air just fine and I've had no flats so the >>>> constant <<<<< seepage is of very little concern at this point.

    BTW-Of course Stans is going to discourage you from mixing Slime with their sealant to prolong its life! If its life is prolonged, they will sell less of it...DUH! Can't believe someone would fall for that blatant marketing speech.
    I'd imagine Slime leaking out of the sidewalls (at least seems to be a frequent occurrence reported here with Slime used with or without Stan's)
    means it will dry up pretty fast just fine for you. What a friend who is a mountain biker and chemical engineer said to some guy trying to
    defend it pouring out the sidewalls: "if it did a descent job of sealing it would not be leaking out the sidewalls like that **"
    He get's staight to the point.. ..Never mind very small relative % of reports of sidewall leakage
    with straight Stans. Everywhere I read comments about it with the % of slime mixes. duh redux.
    But who cares. Advice from guys who invented the stuff or from guys on forums. (both are good, right ?) hmmm.
    (** He mentioned last time I ran into him he took some old Stan's (and also aged liquid latex)
    to the lab a few months back (and compared it to new) and said like most chemical agents in such an
    harsh environment as a bike tire often not meant to be run tubelss; and it indeed did change it's molecular
    nature over time and thus is much less effective..over time.)
    Here's an old review that many have allready seen review of various from back in da day. (There is a couple of new ones
    out that I can't find anymore, thanks to Stan's for saving this one.)

    https://www.notubes.com/pdf/VN052305.pdf

    I don't know, I do beer mix testing and I'm not a chemist, I just know Stan's works for me for several years
    and has been really cheap verses anything with tubes. Mixing a bunch of stuff is fun (but a messy process more so)
    ++++ do it, forget it, and go ride......
    Last edited by ghawk; 04-09-2009 at 04:51 AM.

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